The good oil

[wysper]

Hi Guys

Been reading a thread on another part of the site that talks about oil changes.

Is it any different with the adventure riding?
Do you stick with recommended service intervals?
Do you change filter and oil with every change?
Should you change your air filter more regularly?

I realise there is a fair bit of personal choice here but all opinions welcome.

I am planing to put in dino oil, not synthetic, that would be fine for the robust DR ay?

[NordieBoy]

Adventure riding is usually slower than normal riding.

I do 5000km changes as it's easier to remember than the recommended 6000.

Filter every 2nd change.

Magnetic sump bolt.

Air filter if it's been dusty but usually every couple of months. Did mine today (5,000km).

Dino is fine. I'm using Total Hi Perf 4T synth at the moment 'cause it looks cool (antifreeze green) but usually use Total Racing 4T mineral based. They do 5l containers so you can easily get 2 changes out of it.

[AllanB]

Bright green oil! That's just weird!

[Woodman]

Air filters are a how long is a piece of string thing really as it depends on the conditions. Just check it regularly and wash it if it looks to bad.

I do oil changes quite regularly, actually I do them as I am riding, but every few thou I will do a change regardless of how much I have put in.

Using penrite at the moment fully synthetic 10w50 . Seems to have slowed the consumption.
Will try 10w70 next.

I wonder which oil is the best??? :innocent:

[wysper]

I wonder which oil is the best??? :innocent:

I know not to even hint at opening that door!!

[clint640]

I think if your adv riding involves a lot of hot, slow trail stuff shortening up the intervals is a good idea. I only do that now & then so I have always stuck with the 5000km factory interval, Both filters & oil. Air filter as required, not often over winter, more in summer.

I've always run semi or full synth of the right grade, but haven't been much more fussy than that, $20/L max. Currently Rock Oil summat.

The DR may be robust, but it's air/oil cooled mill probably puts bigger demands on the oil than a higher performance but liquid cooled motor does. IMHO anyway.

Cheers
Clint

[wysper]

Thanks Clint.

A good point to consider, maybe a good quality dino then :yes:

[ADVGD]

Previously working as an engine reconditioner I saw first hand on a number of occasions the damage caused by lack of oil changes. Manufactures recommendation is every 6000km but I do oil + oil filter every 4000km (My bike loves me). That may sound excessive and paranoid, but to those that don't know me I frequently hide under my bed with a tinfoil suit on to stop space aliens reading my thoughts. :eek5:

[Taz]

I have run Caltex Delo400 (diesel oil) in my last 5 bikes including the 525 and a YZF250. Works great and zero problems, cheaper than bike oil too. I buy it from the warehouse when it's on special at $34.95 or so for 5 litres. Change the 525 every 1500-2000kms depending on use, other bikes are usually 5000km intervals.

[Transalper]

....Works great and zero problems,....
How many kms do you keep your bikes for?

[Taz]

How many kms do you keep your bikes for?

Did 50,000 on the R1100 was at 130,000 when I sold it and still going like new, KTM525 is up to 10,000km, XT600 was 45,000km, YZF250 was well over 100hours. can't remember what the VFR750 got to. And didn't do many k's on the Ducati.

I always recommend people run what they are comfortable with and if that means having a motorcycle on the package or paying inflated prices then so be it. It is after all your piece of mind. Hard to enjoy your rde if you are worrying about your oil eh?

Andy.

[CrazyFrog]

Jesus, I must be an oil freak, I changed the 640A oil/filters every 3000km, and ran 10W-40 synthetic (and the fucker still destroyed a cam bearing at 35K!) I loved that bike tho, good times we had.
On the EXC, I run 10W-50 Synthetic Motorex in winter, 15W-50 in summer and change it every 500-700km or every 10-15 hours, as per factory specs. Mind you, it only holds 1.2 litres of the stuff, so oil changes are relatively cheap. Do oil filters every second change.
Clean the air filters every ride in summer, every 3rd ride in winter. Depends on conditions, but as I'm mostly on dirt, I do 'em regular like.
Most of my riding is short trail riding stuff, or gravel, very little on the sealed road these days.
My theory is if you're riding the bike in hard conditions or under load a lot, change it more.
Oil is cheaper than rebuilds (esp with the 640, LOL!)

[Transalper]

....
I always recommend people run what they are comfortable with...
Cheers Andy, have heard various opinions on Diesel Oils in bikes, bit of a search on this Delo400 produced a bunch of people liking it, no one didn't.
Think I might give it a try.

[dino3310]

castrol 4t active.
as recommended by manufacturer or sooner.

i do mine about every 1000 -1400 klms

[That looks like fun]

Okey dokey the diesel oil in petrol engine thing :blink: Simplest problem is higher detergent levels :yes: We could go into high sulphate's low ash all that stuff but we will stick with the number one problem :mellow:
In a car if diesel oil is run from new you can get good results. Where people come to grief is they buy an old shitter and stick diesel oil in it and it cleans out all the carbon/sludge deposits and basically your engine falls apart :shit:
Having said that air cooled bike engines may not suffer the same build ups so this maaaaaaaaay not happen :shutup:
Have any KLR riders tried running a straight 30 weight oil? Many years ago the Mitzi V8 diesels we serviced would consume huge amounts of oil (top up the diesel mate and fill the oil please) :gob: if you used a high grade multi viscosity oil in them. Reason given by Mitzi was that they were a low friction engine and not designed for those types of oil. Put them back on the cheap as chips straight run 30 and vhawla oil consumption settled down to nothing :yes:

[Waihou Thumper]

I have recently got the 625sxc. I run good quality oil and change the filter every second change. the gasket gets changed too, but it can be used twice at a pinch. I have stuck with a semi synthetic oil and change at 5000km intervals. My last bike, the 640A was changed every 6-7000km dependent on type of use. The motor was strong...I changed the oil as per the book of words. :)
Imagine a KTM running on Diesel oil, sheesh! I thought it vibrated a bit then, imagine what it will be like with diesel oil in it...:)
I am gonna have to investigate that one for sure Andy...Thanks for the heads up mate!

[tri boy]

Fookin oil threads:ar15::brick::thud:

[dino3310]

Fookin oil threads:ar15::brick::thud:

No that should be: another Fookin oil thread:ar15::brick::thud:

:lol:

[yafeetup]

I run full synthic motorex, change oil every 2500km and filter every 5000 thats cause i do quite a bit of hard core and ring its neck off, in the long run oil is cheap. Modern 4 strokes hate dirty air filters its an engine killer, its really easy to carry a pre oiled 1 for a multi day ride, depends on whether your a follow or leader . With an opened up air box cleaning it after 1 really dusty ride isnt unusual.

[gav24]

Hmmm - never heard of the diesel oil thing:shifty: might give that a go on the next oil change...

I have heard that the straight 30wt is good for bikes that suffer from dragging clutches...
Off topic:- My old 1979 PE250 and the 1978 RM400 and to a lesser amount the 1980 RM125 are all buggers for clutch dragging and creeping forward - a huge pain on the start line, and when stopped and trying to find neutral on a trail ride.
Anyone know anymore about this, as I'd love to solve it....

As for the air filter (when its dirty) I havent cleaned mine in 7000kms since i put the new Uni filter one in - just never seems to get dirty, even with the top of the air box cut away to almost zero - Hmmm... DR650's they even self clean! :innocent::innocent:

[Taz]

As for the air filter (when its dirty) I havent cleaned mine in 7000kms since i put the new Uni filter one in - just never seems to get dirty, even with the top of the air box cut away to almost zero - Hmmm... DR650's they even self clean! :innocent::innocent:


Dirt is probably going straight thru it :)

[topo]

The comments about changing air filters is quite telling really, My old 640 would self-dust at a moments notice! by the end of last years DB1k (15hrs) it was blocked to the point that i was getting a noticable drop in performance (bald rear tyre by that stage didn't help:Punk:). My current DRZ400 is really good but i still change it after every dusty ride or as soon as i see any build-up.

On the Oil side of things, the DRZ really likes castrol 4t active - seems to make gear changes nicer:yes: I used to run anything i could find in the 640e as long as it was cheap! when i was "giving it a bit" i'd change oil every 1500-2000km with filters every 2nd change.
The GSPD runs really nicely on the delo400, but then again it'd run on raw crude oil in a pinch.

Must go pick the purple monster up sometime soon:wari:

[gav24]

Dirt is probably going straight thru it :)

I know its a worry, aye:shit:
I keep checking it after most good rides, only 4 phillips screws, and the bugger is still nice and tacky with oil, and absolutely no crud on it - still looks brand new, even the inside of the airbox is spotless:blink::blink:

Is mine a particularly freakish story, or do all DR650s exhibit this spooky phenomenon...:shifty:

[Padmei]

I did a it of looking around a while back & found this
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/

Man there are some oil freaks out there.
Keep it going

[Taz]

I know its a worry, aye:shit:
I keep checking it after most good rides, only 4 phillips screws, and the bugger is still nice and tacky with oil, and absolutely no crud on it - still looks brand new, even the inside of the airbox is spotless:blink::blink:

Is mine a particularly freakish story, or do all DR650s exhibit this spooky phenomenon...:shifty:

Check that there is a rubber manifold between the carb and the airbox :)

[dino3310]

heres a good read if you got an hour :blink: http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

[dino3310]

this is good http://www.shell.com/home/PlainPageServlet?FC=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/ask_our_expert/app_askourexpert_faq.html

couldnt link it right, scroll down to 'Top Five Requested Questions' 1

[Taz]

Shell Oils - Can heavy-duty diesel oil be used in motorcycles?


Motorcycle gasoline engines may not seem in the same league as the big displacement diesel engine under your hood, but they share some of the same lubrication requirements. So yes, in many cases, a premium heavy-duty universal oil capable of serving both diesel and gasoline engines is the best choice for your bike.

Wow even shell agrees......

[warewolf]

There is no one answer, except "change it when it needs it."

Adventure riding - bikes & conditions - is far too diverse. Sometimes the interval needs to be way below the manufacturer's spec, sometimes you can stretch it out.

FWIW I run the 640A on-spec as it is about right and it suits to do a full service at the same time at 5000km. However the DR-Z250 could only do 1000-1500km between changes with filters every 2nd or 3rd. Not a shit-show in hell of getting anywhere near the 6000km recommended interval, even 1500km made me nervous due to the poor state of the oil by that stage. Thrashing it on trail rides didn't help but most of the miles were on road (being thrashed - it's only a 250cc 4t trailie after all). Both those need air filters cleaning after every dusty ride - filter skins are great!

[Waihou Thumper]

Wow even shell agrees......

I guess it is whatever you are comfortable with and what you have previously been using..
Andy - It works for you, cool....I would be tempted to use it, but at what cost? Dunno....What am I saving? A few bucks....
I always look for a bargain, but not on my KTM....:) It is out of warranty too...hehe.
I agree with ya though, stick to what is good, what works etc....why change a good thing.

[wysper]

Right.
So horses for courses.
What ever works
And do whats right LOL

I am going to start with
5K oil and filter - basic oil and see how that goes.
Air filter check and clean often and maybe change every 2.5k - most of my riding is on the slab sadly

And change as I see fit, experimenting with different oils etc till I find what I and my bike like.

Piece of cake.

[MXNUT]

Fookin oil threads:ar15::brick::thud:

Its the same questions every time, people looking to save money.

3 points to remember

1. oil is cheap ( even synthetic )
2. engines are not.
3. use the best quality MOTORCYCLE oil you can afford.


As has been previously said, diesel oils have a very high sulpher and detergent content and are made for cleaning out dirty diesel engines.
Diesel oils are tested to hold their viscostity at 1500 to 5000 rpm max. How fast does your bike engine spin ??

The chopping action of the gears in straight cut gearboxes ( almost every motorcycle) has the bigest effect on viscosity stabilization of the oil, these viscosity stabilizers and the lack of friction modifiers ( to stop your clutch slipping ) in motorcycle oil are the main differences between a motor cycle oil and oil made for something else.

Despite what people may think the manufacturers do know best.


Use the best quality MOTORCYCLE oil you can afford.

[wysper]

Its the same questions every time, people looking to save money.



It is not only that, it is also not wanting to waste money on what is effectively marketing hype.
I am not saying that the oil companies are doing that.
I am not saying the service intervals in the manual are set to make you spend more and more often.

All I was asking is what peoples experiences with advenutre riding and oil change intervals are.
In the industry I am in people get taken in by hype very easily and can end up spending on things they didnt need, would never use are aren't really suitable for what they were trying to achieve.

I am not a mechanic, I know jack shit about engines, oils and the like. I hate being suckered into spending more than I need to, but equally don't want to be a cheap skate and damage my bike accordingly.

For me it is hard to work out what is snake oil and what is the good oil LOL

So I am not just trying to get the cheapest I can, I just dont want to buy something that I really dont need.

[Padmei]

Good points Wysper.
There are always people that forget they had to learn stuff before they could become experts. Keep the questions coming as a lot of people learn- or relearn things from threads like this. It's easier to sit on the sidelines & take shots than stick your head out & ask a question.

[NordieBoy]

And change as I see fit, experimenting with different oils etc till I find what I and my bike like.

The thing I like about the green Total synth is it's easy to see when it is getting old as it changes colour.

[Woodman]

Yes it is very hard to sort out fact from fiction from opinion.

Diesel oils have changed dramatically recently with the introduction of common rail engines .And more importantly since 2006 ish with Diesel particulate filters the oil is no longer anything like the old skool diesel oils and this oil cannot be used in motorcycles. So be careful.

Go to this site, check out the recommendations and faqs etc. You can also print off the specs for each oil.

http://www.penrite.com.au

I find it very useful.

[MXNUT]

It is not only that, it is also not wanting to waste money on what is effectively marketing hype.

So I am not just trying to get the cheapest I can, I just dont want to buy something that I really dont need.

Wasnt suggesting that you were after the cheapest oil was just pointing out that there are horses for courses and you get what you pay for.
( cliche's over ).:love:

I will not pay $35 per litre for the top stuff like Motorex / Motul etc..... either

But Castrol Active 4t at Repco for $40 -$45 for 4 litres is a great product & good value.

Or for something better Castrol / Mobil and Elf all make good fully synthetic motorcyle oils for around $65 - $90 for 4 litres.

5000 km intervals will be fine for the DR ( and most other modern ADV bikes )


If going for a synthetic oil the spec you should be looking for on the label is JASO MA2.

Some of the more exspensive syn oils are still only rated at JASO MA ( so you are just paying for the brand name there ).



PS.... i would never run nice clean oil through a dirty filter. For $15 extra change them both together.

[Bass]

I am not a mechanic, I know jack shit about engines, oils and the like. I hate being suckered into spending more than I need to, but equally don't want to be a cheap skate and damage my bike accordingly.

For me it is hard to work out what is snake oil and what is the good oil LOL

So I am not just trying to get the cheapest I can, I just dont want to buy something that I really dont need.

Clint gave you the most important tip so far.
You have a DR - it's largely oil cooled. Slow,tough work (e.g. deep sand) hammers the oil hard.
If you do that stuff, change it more often - much more often - otherwise 5 to 6 k is fine.

Remember too, that the cost of oil is one of the minor costs of owning a bike. If you run knobs on a big single and push it a bit, you can use 2 rear tyres between each oil change.
Lastly, it's not like the DR holds that much oil anyway.

[bart]

I do oil every 6-7k (DR650). I just get the stuff recommended from the bike shop. I do the filter every change.

I've got one of those bloody K&N filters. I clean it with petrol, then brush on a thin layer of waste car oil. It's worked so far. :shutup:

[JATZ]

My 2 rupees....
I do the oil and filter every 3-4000 k's these days, using castrol 4T, it's cheap and seems to be working.I will not put diesel oil in the bike, I tried that before (thinking "any old shit'll do")and think it is one of the reasons why it had a meltdown
I have had trouble finding a 10-40 SF or SG oil for the Big which is what's recomended so if anybody knows where to get some lemme know :yes:
Air filter I change every 10,000 and clean whenever the tank is off. It's a really piss poor design so I don't thinkk cleaning has much effect, besides making me feel better :mellow: It is something I think will be ahem modified at some stage.

We should make this oil thread a sticky aye :shutup:

[marks]

I've got one of those bloody K&N filters. I clean it with petrol, then brush on a thin layer of waste car oil. It's worked so far. :shutup:

Turning your DR into a rotary - revolution by revolution :yes:

speaking of which (or not) when are we going in to explore some of the alternate ways up cnut (you got any knobbies?)

NEED TO RIIIDE....:shutup:

[gav24]

speaking of which (or not) when are we going in to explore some of the alternate ways up cnut (you got any knobbies?)

NEED TO RIIIDE....:shutup:

Hmmmm, agree there Marks. Would suggest a ride tomorrow but have you seen the forecast...:bye:

I was getting paranoid about my air filter last night after reading some posts, checked it again and.....


.....bloody spotless! The filter enigma continues...:shifty:


Right, straight 30 wt oil and clutch drag, someone on here must know...
...or know an opinion...or know someone who once knew...or read something somewhere...:blink:

[yafeetup]

I do oil every 6-7k (DR650). I just get the stuff recommended from the bike shop. I do the filter every change.

I've got one of those bloody K&N filters. I clean it with petrol, then brush on a thin layer of waste car oil. It's worked so far. :shutup:

Cleaning foam air cleaners with petrol cut down their service life especailly if your running a dual compound filter, use turps 10 bucks for 4 litres. Proper air cleaner oil isnt that dear, car oil will not filter fine particales properly. Dirty air kills engines

[Taz]

Its the same questions every time, people looking to save money.

3 points to remember

1. oil is cheap ( even synthetic )
2. engines are not.
3. use the best quality MOTORCYCLE oil you can afford.


As has been previously said, diesel oils have a very high sulpher and detergent content and are made for cleaning out dirty diesel engines.
Diesel oils are tested to hold their viscostity at 1500 to 5000 rpm max. How fast does your bike engine spin ??

The chopping action of the gears in straight cut gearboxes ( almost every motorcycle) has the bigest effect on viscosity stabilization of the oil, these viscosity stabilizers and the lack of friction modifiers ( to stop your clutch slipping ) in motorcycle oil are the main differences between a motor cycle oil and oil made for something else.

Despite what people may think the manufacturers do know best.


Use the best quality MOTORCYCLE oil you can afford.

Next you'll be telling us there's only one true god.......

Not one of the many motorcycle manuals in my garage say to only use a "motorcycle" oil. They just give the specs that the oil should reach. Don't buy into the hype.

[dino3310]

now that ive seen the inside of a XR motor that hasent been looked after i'l only use mc oil and very frequently:yes:

[bart]

Cleaning foam air cleaners with petrol cut down their service life especailly if your running a dual compound filter, use turps 10 bucks for 4 litres. Proper air cleaner oil isnt that dear, car oil will not filter fine particales properly. Dirty air kills engines

Mine isn't a foam filter.

I need an excuse to throw in a 725 kit anyway. :yes:

[Woodman]

My 2 rupees....
I do the oil and filter every 3-4000 k's these days, using castrol 4T, it's cheap and seems to be working.I will not put diesel oil in the bike, I tried that before (thinking "any old shit'll do")and think it is one of the reasons why it had a meltdown
I have had trouble finding a 10-40 SF or SG oil for the Big which is what's recomended so if anybody knows where to get some lemme know :yes:
Air filter I change every 10,000 and clean whenever the tank is off. It's a really piss poor design so I don't thinkk cleaning has much effect, besides making me feel better :mellow: It is something I think will be ahem modified at some stage.

We should make this oil thread a sticky aye :shutup:

I found some oil for ya ages ago, the spec sheet is pinned up in my orifice. Its a marine 4 stoke oil sg 10w50 semi synthetic, also suitable for motorcycles with clutches etc.

Pop over and I will show ya.

[wysper]

This has been a good thread for me.

Cheers guys. :Punk:

[MXNUT]

Don't buy into the hype.

Had a bit to do with oil and oil/engine failures recently.
Also had lots of oil reps tell me that oils that are rated the same ( friction modifier package )with the same viscosity are as good as each other.

Oil sampling and analysis of the used oils by proper testing laboratories has proven that is not the case.:shit:

I dont Buy into the Hype, but i do go for "fit for purpose".:Punk:

The advantage of living in a democratic world is each to their own though.

[pete376403]

As has been previously said, diesel oils have a very high sulpher and detergent content and are made for cleaning out dirty diesel engines...

...Despite what people may think the manufacturers do know best.

Really? High sulphur content compared to what? This article in Nov 2006 said Shell Rotella was part of the ultra low sulphur project (fuel and oil)
http://www.trucknews.com/issues/story.aspx?aid=1000208152&type=Print%20Archives

And I certainly agree with your last statement :yes:

[That looks like fun]

Really? High sulphur content compared to what? This article in Nov 2006 said Shell Rotella was part of the ultra low sulphur project (fuel and oil)
http://www.trucknews.com/issues/story.aspx?aid=1000208152&type=Print%20Archives

And I certainly agree with your last statement :yes:

Good article :yes:, good to see fuel companies working to reduce emissions as well as just expecting engine manufacturers to do it all. A reduction in Sulfur in the fuel will certainly change the characteristic's of combustion byproducts :sick:. That will be the reason they recommend an oil meeting a required certification level be used. No mention of Sulfur in the oil though so not sure why this fuel issue was introduced to an oil thread?
In NZ we have some strange thought patterns :mellow: take weed killer as an example. First read the instructions, then double the mix rate just to make sure them weeds really die :blink:
Got to agree with MXNUT, manufacturers might just know what they are doing.
Threads like this are good as they help people learn to read between the lines of what is said and what is intended. The engine manufacturer will always lean toward safety for his product, oil manufacturer will lean towards oil. :yes:
Lets start a thread on oil additives :shifty:

[pete376403]

Good article :yes:, good to see fuel companies working to reduce emissions as well as just expecting engine manufacturers to do it all. A reduction in Sulfur in the fuel will certainly change the characteristic's of combustion byproducts :sick:. That will be the reason they recommend an oil meeting a required certification level be used. No mention of Sulfur in the oil though so not sure why this fuel issue was introduced to an oil thread?:
I was querying the mention of high sulphur content diesel oils as it's something i havent heard of much before. My experience with diesel oils comes from an apprenticeship with GGH on Cat tractors. At that time Cat recommended series 3 - 30 (GGH used Caltex RPM Delo IIRC) although that was a long time ago (early 70s) so much may have changed since then.
The Shell article came up when I searched on "high sulphur rotella"

[tri boy]

Lets start a thread on oil additives :shifty:

Aaaarrrrrghhhhhh..............:Pokey:

[That looks like fun]

Aaaarrrrrghhhhhh..............:Pokey:

Sorry mate :yes: I was just fishing :innocent: :shifty:

[That looks like fun]

I was querying the mention of high sulphur content diesel oils as it's something i havent heard of much before. My experience with diesel oils comes from an apprenticeship with GGH on Cat tractors. At that time Cat recommended series 3 - 30 (GGH used Caltex RPM Delo IIRC) although that was a long time ago (early 70s) so much may have changed since then.
The Shell article came up when I searched on "high sulphur rotella"

Point taken. :yes: I read the article and it was about lowering the sulfur content of diesel (fuel). There was no mention in the article of them lowering it in the oil. C3-30 was a Europa oil (all us old buggers who remember Europa please stand now and leave the room :shifty: ) It was cutting edge technology (in the seventies):gob:.
Rotella, what sort of a name for oil is that :shit: Sounds like an Australian parrot :shutup:

Diesel oil in diesel engines, motor bike oil in motor bike engines. You can cut a slice of cheese with a chainsaw but that don't make it the right tool for the job :shifty:

[NordieBoy]

You can cut a slice of cheese with a chainsaw but that don't make it the right tool for the job :shifty:

What job is cheese the right tool for then?

[That looks like fun]

What job is cheese the right tool for then?

Causing smelly farts:sick:, constipation :shit: and making toast taste good :love:
Next question please :yes:

[Kokopelli]

Just for the record. The 1150 is now at over 130000km and has so far survived my efforts to service it with Castrol 20-50 from the Warehouse. I change the oil every 10000km. This bike will need to do at least another 130k km before I can retire it to the back of the garage. For some reason it chews through pivot bearings, possibly due to corrugations in the road. Don't think it comes from commuting.

[clint640]

The thing I like about the green Total synth is it's easy to see when it is getting old as it changes colour.

One thing that has always bugged me about the 640 is that the oil turns dark & filthy looking almost immediately after a change, has done from new on every type of oil I've tried.

Hard case that Crazyfrog's 640 lunched a cam bearing @ 35K with 3K oil changes, same bearing on mine was worn but still going at 50K with 5K changes.

Cheers
Clint

[CrazyFrog]

Hard case that Crazyfrog's 640 lunched a cam bearing @ 35K with 3K oil changes, same bearing on mine was worn but still going at 50K with 5K changes.

Thats LC4's for ya, mine was a 2000 model tho, without the hi flow head. And I didn't have any service history when I bought it, so who knows. When the motor was pulled apart, everything else was mint, so it was just one of those things I guess.
What pissed me off the most, was it happened 850km into the 2009 Dusty Butt, so officially, I DNF'd, but unofficially, I completed it (on the back of a BMWR1150GS). I wouldn't recommend the GS ADV models rear pillion seat, especially after 850kms on a KTM!

[Box'a'bits]

Thats LC4's for ya, mine was a 2000 model tho, without the hi flow head. And I didn't have any service history when I bought it, so who knows. When the motor was pulled apart, everything else was mint, so it was just one of those things I guess.

I've always changed oils at 3000 kms. Perhaps I baby the bikes too much.

Andy's 640a also did its cam follower bearing at similar kms. I bought the bike at about 20k kms, & service history appeared good. Maybe just a service item at that mileage.

Agree Clint, mine always went black almost straight away too. Funny going back to a Beemer, & having the oil staying reasonably clean by 1,000kms.

[pete376403]

What was the piston and the rings like? Black in the oil is suspended soot particles from blowby. (Not a diesel, is it?)

[warewolf]

Andy's 640a also did its cam follower bearing at similar kms. I bought the bike at about 20k kms, & service history appeared good. Maybe just a service item at that mileage. Cam bearing vs cam follower bearing... not the same thing. Cam bearing failure is rare. However there was bunch of bikes around the '04-'06 model years that had premature cam follower bearing failure. My bike was/is always serviced by the book and the cam follower bearings started to go before 20,000km. It's obvious because the valve clearances open up and the engine sounds really, really tappety. Ignore these warnings at your peril, 'cos when she goes she takes progressively more- and more expensive- things with it. Earlier model bikes were getting the same problem at the same time, but with typically 50-60,000km on them.


I've always changed oils at 3000 kms. Perhaps I baby the bikes too much.
...
Agree Clint, mine always went black almost straight away too. Funny going back to a Beemer, & having the oil staying reasonably clean by 1,000kms.Modern bikes running on synthetic oils have good power and good lubrication. They need to be loaded up regularly to get good combustion pressure to seat & seal the rings. Otherwise you get glazed bores and blow-by on an engine that ain't never gonna wear out because the oil is stopping the rings doing their job (this is one reason some bikes use a "running in" oil that is a dino-oil before switching to synth at an early change). Having learnt this lesson I've made a point of loading up my 640 regularly - oil still looks pretty mint at 5000km, uses 100-200mL of oil in that time.

I've heard that sometimes its difficult to get all the oil out of the engine (not 640 specifically) so you end up with some old black oil contaminating the new oil - and it doesn't take much to look bad. My DR-Z250 did this - 10km after the oil change, basically as soon as the engine was fully warmed up, it was dark again. But this discolouration in itself while not ideal is not catastrophic either. The new oil is still going to do a good job.

Surely black stuff could also be clutch material? When a mate (doncha love 'em) fried my DR-Z250 clutch, the oil was a totally cooked black-as-knight stink-fest.

[Waihou Thumper]

The KTM 625sxc had an oil change over the past weekend. I starter it up and the oil turned black, very dark....I then emptied the crank, filled her up again with new oil and now it looks nice and toffee coloured...The bike has only done 7700Km
The main reason for this was because assemling it back, I noticed the gasket was stuffed. The last owner had re-used it and I don't know how many times? I got a new gasket but left oil in the bike, it leaked a little bit and topping it up I sort of put a tad too much in...:)
So, I thought in my wisdom to start over and go from scratch without doing the frame oil part....
All good now, nice clean oil and the correct quantity..:)

[yafeetup]

The KTM 625sxc had an oil change over the past weekend. I starter it up and the oil turned black, very dark....I then emptied the crank, filled her up again with new oil and now it looks nice and toffee coloured...The bike has only done 7700Km
The main reason for this was because assemling it back, I noticed the gasket was stuffed. The last owner had re-used it and I don't know how many times? I got a new gasket but left oil in the bike, it leaked a little bit and topping it up I sort of put a tad too much in...:)
So, I thought in my wisdom to start over and go from scratch without doing the frame oil part....
All good now, nice clean oil and the correct quantity..:)

dont think it would be an issue but I would air bleed the frame again, you know take out bolt start up until oil comes out, just to be safe

[Quasievil]

Modern bikes running on synthetic oils have good power and good lubrication. They need to be loaded up regularly to get good combustion pressure to seat & seal the rings. Otherwise you get glazed bores and blow-by on an engine that ain't never gonna wear out because the oil is stopping the rings doing their job (this is one reason some bikes use a "running in" oil that is a dino-oil before switching to synth at an early change).

Im not sure how you come to this conclusion, I dont agree at all

[NordieBoy]

What a load of crap dude

Really?
Apart from the ring loading being most important during the break in period, what's wrong with those wordy things?

[Quasievil]

Really?
Apart from the ring loading being most important during the break in period, what's wrong with those wordy things?

Damn you Nordie, I re worded my post as it was a bit well, much.

What engine isn't loaded up regularly, having a "regular loading" doesn't modify the oils performance or attributes, it may offer variance to the oil temperature, which a synthetic can handle better than another oil type.
the most grueling part of the engines routine is start up, this is where synthetics offer definite advantages over semis and minerals.
Out of any oil Synthetics enable the rings to perform better than other tyes of oil, also they offer the rest of the engine significant benefits (a good synthetic anyway)

[Padmei]

Good to see you've still got a bit of KLR in ya Quasi

[dino3310]

Good to see you've still got a bit of KLR in ya Quasi

are you a Bisexual Quasi:shit:

[Quasievil]

Good to see you've still got a bit of KLR in ya Quasi

yeah I got to stop and rewrite PC style, no wonder my rep is shit lol


are you a Bisexual Quasi:shit:

No, but good on you for asking but sorry mate not keen.:blink:

[wysper]

Quasi has being helping me via pm. Without confusing the living crap out of me.

Looks like I might give a fully synthetic a whirl and see how I get on.
Price scares me a bit, but an engine rebuild price would scare me more :blink::shit:

[NordieBoy]

I haunt really noticed any difference running din/synth.

The 3rd gear whine gets a little louder near the end but that's about it.
Change every 3 months and no problems so far...

[wysper]

I haunt really noticed any difference running din/synth.

The 3rd gear whine gets a little louder near the end but that's about it.
Change every 3 months and no problems so far...

Damn you Nordie - just as I thought I had made a decision :Pokey:

[Quasievil]

I haunt really noticed any difference running din/synth.

The 3rd gear whine gets a little louder near the end but that's about it.
Change every 3 months and no problems so far...

Think of it like this

(god here I go)

think of the two surfaces in your engine, if there was no oll they would basically fuse and blow up right, so what ya do is seperate the two surfaces with an oil...........of course!
okay
so think of two oils one a mineral or semi syn basestock and the other a full synthetic

now

one oil has molecules made up of (lets me imaginative for the purposes of illustrating the point ok) variable sizes marbles, a beach ball a rugby ball and a few tennis balls (use your imagination now) and a few cricket bats and tennis rackets.

this is mineral

now think of

a nice perfectly matching row of exactly the same sized marbles

this is synthetic

ok

now think of those two surfaces held apart by an oil , now answer this question

which is more efficient ??

the second one the even sized marbles right..............this is Synthetic.

and the bennifits?

less friction, more power, less fuel used, better start up lubrication..........the list goes on.

Now what do you want to use in your engine?

synthetic or Mineral/semi

I use synthetic, all my road bikes and my KTM motard, all mint ,never an engine issue even with hard racing.

Synthetics FTW:yes:

[JATZ]

Think of it like this

(god here I go)

think of the two surfaces in your engine, if there was no oll they would basically fuse and blow up right, so what ya do is seperate the two surfaces with an oil...........of course!
okay
so think of two oils one a mineral or semi syn basestock and the other a full synthetic

now

one oil has molecules made up of (lets me imaginative for the purposes of illustrating the point ok) variable sizes marbles, a beach ball a rugby ball and a few tennis balls (use your imagination now) and a few cricket bats and tennis rackets.

this is mineral

now think of

a nice perfectly matching row of exactly the same sized marbles

this is synthetic

ok

now think of those two surfaces held apart by an oil , now answer this question

which is more efficient ??

the second one the even sized marbles right..............this is Synthetic.

and the bennifits?

less friction, more power, less fuel used, better start up lubrication..........the list goes on.

Now what do you want to use in your engine?

synthetic or Mineral/semi

I use synthetic, all my road bikes and my KTM motard, all mint ,never an engine issue even with hard racing.

Synthetics FTW:yes:

THAT ! is the best most simple explanation I have heard/read on this oil thread thing, Ju make it up y'self ?

And..... how would that apply to an air/oil cooled single of advanced years :blink:

[Padmei]

What about if the surface isn't nice & even at a molecular level? Wouldn't the con-ag mix approach be more appropriate?

[That looks like fun]

Enough of this Molly kule stuff stuff its doing my head in. DR650. Air cooled single banger, run what spec oil the manufacturer suggests and service when its supposed to be done.
Don't buy low spec oil!!!!
KTM oil turning black (due to combustion blow by?) Why do gearbox and diff oils turn black then?
Beemer oil turns black after 1000kms, oil change at 10,000
KTM turns black after 300kms, oil change at 3000
Hang about thats 10% of the service interval for both :blink:

The reason for changing oil is because it becomes contaminated and also the additives break down (friction modifiers, polymers etc). Mineral oil itself never breaks down, thats why it can be recycled. No that don't mean you can just change the filter and keep going (remember the additives?)

Biggest bearing in an engine is called a piston. the rings seal against the bore and piston so when combustion occurs they can push the piston down and make the wheels go round which is after all what we want to happen. Good oil keeps it going up and down longer :scooter:

[gav24]

Just to throw a spanner in the works.....:blink::shutup:

Wet clutches - how does that effect the whole slippery deal?:mellow:

You want a clutch to grip - even when smothered in oil, so wouldnt the rugby ball, soccer ball, cricket bat be better?...

I dont know the answer, but would like how that works out with fully synth as opposed to mineral or semi synth....

[Padmei]

Just to throw a spanner in the works.....:blink::shutup:

Wet clutches - how does that effect the whole slippery deal?:mellow:

You want a clutch to grip - even when smothered in oil, so wouldnt the rugby ball, soccer ball, cricket bat be better?...

I dont know the answer, but would like how that works out with fully synth as opposed to mineral or semi synth....


I dont reckon you could fit a cricket bat in the filler hole:nono:

[gav24]

I dont reckon you could fit a cricket bat in the filler hole:nono:

Might be able to if I cut it into thirds, put the bike on its side, and added them to the engine before putting the clutch cover back on.:done:

... Wonder if a tennis ball would fit in place of the oil filter as well:blink:

[Taz]

Run what you are mentally comfortable with. It's the only answer. No ones right or wrong.

[dino3310]

Just to throw a spanner in the works.....:blink::shutup:

Wet clutches - how does that effect the whole slippery deal?:mellow:

You want a clutch to grip - even when smothered in oil, so wouldnt the rugby ball, soccer ball, cricket bat be better?...

I dont know the answer, but would like how that works out with fully synth as opposed to mineral or semi synth....

with my 82DR as soon as it sniffed the synthetic stuff the clutch would start slipping,
i had the shop do some work on it (not clutch related) they put some this new stuff in saying it was the best thing for it...... shit i had to run and flush it 3 times to get me focking clutch back.:shit:
i guess modern oils for modern bikes....
different strokes for different folks

[Box'a'bits]

Synthetic makes me gaskets leak. Much more betterer with dino.

[Transalper]

Can someone please remind me what the deal is with glazing bores and synth oil.
Never heard of it happening with dino.

[NordieBoy]

Can someone please remind me what the deal is with glazing bores and synth oil.
Never heard of it happening with dino.

Run it in gently with synth and it stuffed.
Too slippery.

Run it in aggressively with dino and change it out for synth after a couple of hundred kms and it's sweet.

[warewolf]

What engine isn't loaded up regularly, having a "regular loading" doesn't modify the oils performance or attributes, it may offer variance to the oil temperature, which a synthetic can handle better than another oil type.
the most grueling part of the engines routine is start up, this is where synthetics offer definite advantages over semis and minerals.
Out of any oil Synthetics enable the rings to perform better than other tyes of oil, also they offer the rest of the engine significant benefits (a good synthetic anyway)Plenty of modern bike engines are not loaded up regularly. They make lots of power easily so just don't get subjected to high combustion pressures and the bores glaze. The problem is that synthetics are too good at lubrication, as you are repeatedly saying.

At least, according to lots of pro mechanics I've spoken with and say its quite a common problem.

[Woodman]

Glazed bores.

A piston is basically a device to block compression when an engine fires, and push exhaust out and help suck in gasses.
The compression rings are seals to make the pistons operation more efficient, they seal on the outside of the ring and the bottom of the piston groove. Any seal prefers the smoothest running surface it can get to make the seal more efficient e.g. the bore surface and the ring surface.
Can someone tell me why a glazed bore is bad, when (I presume) by glazed bore you guys mean a very smooth bore.

[Taz]

Glazed bores.

A piston is basically a device to block compression when an engine fires, and push exhaust out and help suck in gasses.
The compression rings are seals to make the pistons operation more efficient, they seal on the outside of the ring and the bottom of the piston groove. Any seal prefers the smoothest running surface it can get to make the seal more efficient e.g. the bore surface and the ring surface.
Can someone tell me why a glazed bore is bad, when (I presume) by glazed bore you guys mean a very smooth bore.

One of the piston rings jobs (oil Ring) is to scrape the oil from the bore on the down stroke. If the bore is "glazed" the oil can smear past the oil ring resulting in high oil consumption. Two strokes don't have an oil ring as this is beneficial in their case (not the glazed bore tho).

[Woodman]

One of the piston rings jobs (oil Ring) is to scrape the oil from the bore on the down stroke. If the bore is "glazed" the oil can smear past the oil ring resulting in high oil consumption. Two strokes don't have an oil ring as this is beneficial in their case (not the glazed bore tho).

Yea naa. A modern cx3 oil ring has virtually no tension and does not scrape, but relys on creating a high pressure zone under the ring and by way of cutouts/ grooves or (old school) holes, makes any oil go to the nearest low pressure zone and drip back into the crankcase.
Smooth is our friend.

2 strokes don't need oil rings because it don't matter as the oil is in the fuel and is the same mix as what goes into the squish area. (Think thats what you said)

[dino3310]

One of the piston rings jobs (oil Ring) is to scrape the oil from the bore on the down stroke. If the bore is "glazed" the oil can smear past the oil ring resulting in high oil consumption. Two strokes don't have an oil ring as this is beneficial in their case (not the glazed bore tho).

is it bikes or sex you talking about:blink:

[Taz]

Yea naa. A modern cx3 oil ring has virtually no tension and does not scrape, but relys on creating a high pressure zone under the ring and by way of cutouts/ grooves or (old school) holes, makes any oil go to the nearest low pressure zone and drip back into the crankcase.
Smooth is our friend.

2 strokes don't need oil rings because it don't matter as the oil is in the fuel and is the same mix as what goes into the squish area. (Think thats what you said)

Too smooth is not our friend. We want a little rough thats why we hone a crosshatch into our bores.

[dino3310]

Thought so .

[pete376403]

KTM oil turning black (due to combustion blow by?) Why do gearbox and diff oils turn black then?:

If its a conventional 4 stroke motorcycle engine, gearbox oil turns black because it is running the same oil as the engine. Otherwise can you provide more info about the type of gearbox that is blackening the oil?
Likewise black diff oil? (car diff?) might be LSD cones wearing. Again, something wrong.
But in the main, gearbox and diff oils do not get black under normal conditions

[Taz]

is it bikes or sex you talking about:blink:

Bikes. I know nothing about the latter.

[Woodman]

Too smooth is not our friend. We want a little rough thats why we hone a crosshatch into our bores.

Ok explain chrome bores

The main reason for honing a cross hatch is that normal boring tends to tear cast iron and the surface is not smooth enough. When re ringing the way now is to not deglaze the bores as the best surface for rings is a bore that has been worn (rubbed) smooth by the rings running up and down them.

Another reason why to not deglaze a bore when re ringing is that the bores are often not cleaned properly afterwards and the carburundum from the hone is still embedded in the cast iron and comes out when the engine starts up for the first time scratching the bore and ring faces.

Is this still an oil thread?

[dino3310]

Is this still an oil thread?

dunno i got lost on the first page:blink:

[Taz]

Even chrome (nikasil etc) bores have a crosshatch honed into them.

[Woodman]

Even chrome (nikasil etc) bores have a crosshatch honed into them.

Yea you are right in that you can kinda see where there was a x hatch in the original machining in some of them, but it is very very insiignificant, and you can't feel it.

i have never seen a glazed bore

This could go on for days.

[Taz]

Yea you are right in that you can kinda see where there was a x hatch in the original machining in some of them, but it is very very insiignificant, and you can't feel it.

i have never seen a glazed bore

This could go on for days.

You should probably use Google. There are actual experts out there who can explain it better than me. P.S they use a diamond hone on nikasil cylinders...... Why should you be able to feel it? Don't need it that rough.

[Woodman]

You should probably use Google. There are actual experts out there who can explain it better than me. P.S they use a diamond hone on nikasil cylinders...... Why should you be able to feel it? Don't need it that rough.

I will do some research, am always willing to be proved wrong, but I maintain that smooth is better.

[Woodman]

Just found this.

Didn't think about the varnish aspect, and it explains oil and running in etc too.

http://http://coxengineering.co.uk/bore.aspx

[pete376403]

i have never seen a glazed bore

This could go on for days.

It describes how peoples eyes glaze over when some bore keeps going on and on and on...

[warewolf]

Just back from the pub, 'avin' a few bevvies with a recently ex-pro bike mechanic.

"Glazed bores: fact or fiction?" says I.

"Fact. The trouble is oils are too good these days!" says he.

ROFL! :rofl:

Says he wouldn't have believed it himself without seeing it first hand. Their tour fleet of BMWs would burn lots of oil if run on semi- or full-synth. On mineral oil, they never used a drop and ran better. Reckons it is more of a problem with older design engines using new synth oils. He agreed that the increased lubricity of modern oils is unfortunately a problem for good ring seal (are we talking about sex again?! :shutup:). The problem is that the glazed/varnished bore is so damn smooth and slippery that you get a film of oil getting past the rings into the combustion chamber (my impression is that it is similar to surface-tension behaviour, or like the way plain bearings float on a fine film of oil, thereby avoiding metal-to-metal contact) and combustion gases getting past the rings reducing efficiency.

[warewolf]

Ok explain chrome boresAsk in the cruiser forum. If it ain't chromed, go home!!

[That looks like fun]

Blimin heck :shifty: Didnt someone mention oils being used of too higher quality causing excess oil consumption in certain engines a while back :innocent:
Gearboxes and difs (ok right angle drive :blink: ) where the oil turns black? BMW for a start, then we could go Rockwell, Spicer, RTR but hell that list would be a long one :shutup:
A Glazed boar?
http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.magnumscatering.com.au/images/first_pig_on_spit_042.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.magnumscatering.com.au/whole_roast_diy.php&usg=__XOx0z8BRKQvJtPKuZQNBzLp8yuE=&h=600&w=800&sz=169&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=c4_V6l3p7xYVmM:&tbnh=147&tbnw=195&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpig%2Bon%2Ba%2Bspit%26hl%3Den%26biw%3 D1012%26bih%3D629%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=157&oei=x5aPTOD9AojuvQO32IjRCw&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0&tx=-511&ty=163
Thats what a glazed bore looks like :yes:


Are you still with us Tri Boy :shifty: :shifty:

[Taz]

Just back from the pub, 'avin' a few bevvies with a recently ex-pro bike mechanic.

"Glazed bores: fact or fiction?" says I.

"Fact. The trouble is oils are too good these days!" says he.

ROFL! :rofl:

Says he wouldn't have believed it himself without seeing it first hand. Their tour fleet of BMWs would burn lots of oil if run on semi- or full-synth. On mineral oil, they never used a drop and ran better.

I had that exact same problem in 1990 on my brand new XJ600. Ran some semi syth motul after the first service and it used alot of oil. Went to Duckhams Q on the next change and all was good again.
Andy.

[wysper]

So would an 07 DR be considered a new bike or an old one.
Given the it was designed by Noah on his cruise on the Arc. Even though it was built 3 years ago, would I treat it like an old bike - with the synth / dino debate?

[Taz]

So would an 07 DR be considered a new bike or an old one.
Given the it was designed by Noah on his cruise on the Arc. Even though it was built 3 years ago, would I treat it like an old bike - with the synth / dino debate?

Are you regretting you ever asked about oil yet?

[wysper]

Are you regretting you ever asked about oil yet?

LOL - yeah a little.
I am not sure if I am learning or just getting more confused than I thought possible :shutup:

[clint640]

So would an 07 DR be considered a new bike or an old one.
Given the it was designed by Noah on his cruise on the Arc. Even though it was built 3 years ago, would I treat it like an old bike - with the synth / dino debate?

The people you want to listen to re oil are the ones who have done lots of kms on engines similar to yours, age doesn't matter so much as engine design & type of use, eg what works really well in an oil head beemer may be of some relevance to the DR, but then again they have a dry clutch & a separate gearbox. The oil that someone swears by for their GZXRRR 600 racebike might be good stuff but how relevant is that data to a piston 4x the size doing 1/2 the revs? I haven't been too fussy about the oil I've used in my KTM, but she's liquid cooled & has no plain bearings, different again...

Cheers
Clint

[tri boy]

Are you still with us Tri Boy :shifty: :shifty:

Pouring silvo into the lawn mower to "deglaze" it's bore as I type.
Lets talk about the aroma of burnt diff oil next


















NOT

[Woodman]

So would an 07 DR be considered a new bike or an old one.
Given the it was designed by Noah on his cruise on the Arc. Even though it was built 3 years ago, would I treat it like an old bike - with the synth / dino debate?

Run synthetic and ride it hard. Thats the best reason to run synthetic.:woohoo:

[JATZ]

Run synthetic and ride it hard. Thats the best reason to run synthetic.:woohoo:

NOOOOOOO !!!! Put mineral in it and just nana it round the place :shutup:, it really doesn't matter cause 3rd gears gunna shit itself regardless :crazy:

IMHO.....p.t.

Sparkplugs work o.k. Woodman, just gotta take it for a hoooon up the valley

[dino3310]

LOL - yeah a little.
I am not sure if I am learning or just getting more confused than I thought possible :shutup:

just follow the manual,
have you got a manual?

[That looks like fun]

Manual? :whistle:

[Taz]

Manual? :whistle:

Yeah mine's a 5 speed.......

[Kokopelli]

Manual? :whistle:

Isn't that the waiter at fawlty towers?

[That looks like fun]

Isn't that the waiter at fawlty towers?


Si Manwell Manwell ;)

Now back to that burnt diff oil I heard a sniff of earlier :whistle:

[wysper]

I did the oil change.
Fully sythetic (mobil)
Changed the filter as well - why not? the are bloody cheap.

Differences

Smoother gear changes
Easier gear changes
less 'pops' and 'clicks' from the engine
General feeling of it running better.

Now - will I put synthetic again - Yes

Is it worth it? - fucked if I know but I feel better with it in there.

I think the it is better for my bike and engine.

And thats good enough for me in this case.

(mental note to me - NEVER ask about oil again LOL)

[NordieBoy]

I feel theres slightly less noise from my 3rd gear especially near the end of the oil cycle with fully synth vs mineral.

Overdue for a change now. Should've done it 60km ago.