Announcing BRONZ Federation Inc

[Bald Eagle]

Following a meeting of representatives of the current BRONZ branches a New Zealand Federation has been established.
Press Release attached.

[jack_hamma]

Well done Bro z :yes:

[Tunahunter]

Following a meeting of representatives of the current BRONZ branches a New Zealand Federation has been established.
Press Release attached.

Well done - any chance of a heads up on the forthcoming announcements regarding ACC charges next year?

[Hitcher]

Not before time. Well done to all who drove this through.

[NONONO]

OFFS,
Just what are you about to agree to spend our money on?

[Brian d marge]

Good as long as all other groups are kept in the loop , we need ALL hands rowing the boat in the same direction

otherwise we go round in circles and those idiots ( the ones in the ivory tower they call the beehive ) , get stronger and stronger

Stephen

[Hawk]

OFFS,
Just what are you about to agree to spend our money on?
:yes: next they will be a branch of acc well they went to Aussie with them guess that where the saftey levy we now pay went to

[hayd3n]

we could start a motorcycle church and because docnations go to charity we would make more money!!

[phill-k]

I'm not sure if I should ask this question, but why have we now got two groups lobbying on motorcycle issues - Bronz & MAG

Did I not read somewhere that to divide and conquer is how wars are won?

[Katman]

OFFS,
Just what are you about to agree to spend our money on?

:yes: next they will be a branch of acc well they went to Aussie with them guess that where the saftey levy we now pay went to

You two are doing MAG-NZ no favours.

You're starting to look like spoilt brats.

[avgas]

So when do bronz start dealing drugs and wearing patches?

[Big Dave]

I'm not sure if I should ask this question, but why have we now got two groups lobbying on motorcycle issues - Bronz & MAG

Did I not read somewhere that to divide and conquer is how wars are won?

No idea. We've gone from having half a dozen volunteers and nobody really caring 12 months ago, to 2 groups with the same cause developing different agendas.

My vote and money stays firmly with BRONZ.

Like all politics I guess - because of the people, policy and their past achievements.

[admenk]

No idea. We've gone from having half a dozen volunteers and nobody really caring 12 months ago, to 2 groups with the same cause developing different agendas.

.

Which has got to be a good thing. We may all have different opinions on tactics, but surely we have the same goals.

[Big Dave]

:yes: next they will be a branch of acc well they went to Aussie with them guess that where the saftey levy we now pay went to

One of your founders assured me that there was no conflict intended with BRONZ and that MAG will not work that way.

2 weeks is a long time in politics huh.

[Big Dave]

Which has got to be a good thing. We may all have different opinions on tactics, but surely we have the same goals.

I think it's a bad thing. There isn't enough numbers for one agenda to be truly effective.

[admenk]

I think it's a bad thing. There isn't enough numbers for one agenda to be truly effective.

But mabey both groups will keep each other focussed, like in politics where it's good to have both left and right leaning parties. Where we don't want to be like politics, is the childish tit for tat insults thrown about. (not by you, I hasten to add)

[GOONR]

Which has got to be a good thing. We may all have different opinions on tactics, but surely we have the same goals.

I agree with you, the end goal I believe is the same it's just the approach that may be different. I'm sure that there will also be cross overs where all organisations believe that the same approach is the most effective one for certain issues.

I will stick my neck out and say that MAG-NZ more than likely has members who would not join BRONZ for whatever reason and the same applies in reverse. In the end motorcyclists, bikers, or whatever you want to be called today will have a larger representation and more choice.

Many other countries don't just have one organisation for bikers to join so that their concerns can be addressed but those organisations support each other, I don't see why we in NZ can't do the same. :yes:

[Mom]

I for one am delighted to read that BRONZ has finally managed to get, or to be more accurate reinstate, a National body to represent its members, no mean feat in itself having just been through the process with MAG-NZ. There are a lot of i's to dot and t's to cross to be incorporated, so well done BRONZ Federation Inc.

[Big Dave]

Many other countries don't just have one organisation for bikers to join so that their concerns can be addressed but those organisations support each other, I don't see why we in NZ can't do the same. :yes:

Many other countries have 1 city with a bigger population than NZ.

[GOONR]

Many other countries have 1 city with a bigger population than NZ.

That is true but you can have four people in one room that have the same end goal in sight but want to get there via different routes. If they arrive at the same destination together does it matter how they get there.

Between both organisation we still represent a very very small part of the motorcycling community, I would like to think (hopefully) that by giving people a choice they will add their name to a collective voice.

[Hawk]

My comments may have been a little harsh (tough) . But becoming a federation means only one thing, members subs are spent on changing letterheads.
Does it give them more bargaining power.. no, just helps them feel better about themselves

The reason Mag was formed was the feeling of being let down by BRONZ. I dont want the two Orgnaisations to be in conflict but it does seem convenant the Bronz becomes a "federation" When Mag made it appearance, it smacks a little I was here first, see Im a federation.
I do hope the two work together and keep each other honest

[Big Dave]

That is true but you can have four people in one room that have the same end goal in sight but want to get there via different routes. If they arrive at the same destination together does it matter how they get there.

Between both organisation we still represent a very very small part of the motorcycling community, I would like think (hopefully) that by give people a choice they will add their name to a collective voice.

I've said all this before.
There is no need for two.
8 people could have stacked the BRONZ AKL agm.

[GOONR]

I've said all this before.
There is no need for two.
8 people could have stacked the BRONZ AKL agm.

I think we will continue to disagree about the need for two organisations. Collectively we now have more numbers behind us than if we had just "stacked" BRONZ ALK.
That imo is a good thing.

[Big Dave]

I think we will continue to disagree

Yeah. Entirely.

Shemozzzle huh.

[NONONO]

I've said all this before.
There is no need for two.
8 people could have stacked the BRONZ AKL agm.

And how 'Honest' or respectful would that have been?
We know how hard those guys have worked, we just differ in our fundamental approach and ideas such as MSL and MSL EG.
The idea of a "coup" was never even considered.
Often heard the retort to any suggestions that things where too quiet..'if you don't like what's happening start your own organisation"....Well..?
It's not a problem unless you make it one.

[Big Dave]

And how 'Honest' or respectful would that have been?


Strictly speaking for me; it would have been welcome. It's a democracy run by volunteers. Nobody has any power agendas.

When so few show up to the meetings, often it's what only a few people think is right or is achievable.

Bring in some entusiasm and members would be great. Even set up mag as the action group within the political organisation would work for me.

All any of it needs/ed is the votes at the meeting.

I also don't want to see what has gone before, and the efforts that others have put in, diminished.

[Mom]

Even set up mag as the action group within the political organisation would work for me.

But there are some stumbling blocks to that though BD, there are some fundamental differences between BRONZ and MAG-NZ. Just look at the thread on MAG's opinion of the MSL for starters. Can you imagine the bunfight the meeting could have become :eek5:

I dont see why MAG-NZ can not be the "unofficial" ACTION arm of BRONZ anyway. As young Squiggles has already pointed out on here somewhere, Auckland BRONZ have supported AAG actions in the past, I dont see why they cant support MAG ones now. Not a lot has changed in our philosophy, we still dont set out to disrupt etc but acknowledge it may happen as a result of what we do. If we are going to do something differently we will certainly advertise the fact so BRONZ do not get tangled up in something they dont support by default.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, and I will keep saying it MAG-NZ is not the enemy. We are the Motorcycle Action Group of New Zealand Inc. by bikers, for bikers.

[avgas]

Whats the new secret handshake guys?

[Pixie]

I'm not sure if I should ask this question, but why have we now got two groups lobbying on motorcycle issues - Bronz & MAG

Did I not read somewhere that to divide and conquer is how wars are won?


BRONZ still has 240 odd members - where's the division?

I'm one of them

[Big Dave]

I don't consider anyone the enemy but policy that discriminates against riders.

I do consider the single most important factor in the fight against impost to be the number of voters represented.

[Big Dave]

BRONZ still has 240 odd members - where's the division?

I'm one of them

How many members does MAG NZ have now?

[phill-k]

BRONZ still has 240 odd members - where's the division?

I'm one of them

If you read the rest of the posts after mine you will see there is a discussion about having two separate organisations attempting to represent the motorcycle community on the various issues such as ACC and levies ect, I've just checked the dictionary and one becoming two makes a division does it not except that there was already two groups in his ear now there will be three.

[NONONO]

If you read the rest of the posts after mine you will see there is a discussion about having two separate organisations attempting to represent the motorcycle community on the various issues such as ACC and levies ect, I've just checked the dictionary and one becoming two makes a division does it not except that there was already two groups in his ear now there will be three.

You are assuming that MAG-NZ's membership has come mostly from BRONZ members, this is not as far as we are aware, the case.
Some of us are members of both, however some are people who are signing up to become organized for the first time.
There is no one into two, no matter how much you would like there to be.

[phill-k]

You are assuming that MAG-NZ's membership has come mostly from BRONZ members, this is not as far as we are aware, the case.
Some of us are members of both, however some are people who are signing up to become organized for the first time.
There is no one into two, no matter how much you would like there to be.

Ok its sometimes hard to get ones thought processes into words. I was not inferring as to where the membership comes from but rather if there is to be a voice for motorcyclists then one loud voice rather than many drowned out voices are better. Not so much to get the message across but more from the perspective of the recipient. Bronz along with the original protest ride had a very large impact on both Government and the general population. If those representing motorcycling breakdown into ever greater numbers of organisations then the message gets diluted.
Personally but due to the politics of each organisation my wish is hopeless, but if under Motorcycle NZ there was a political arm (Bronz) a women's arm (can't remember their acronym) a geriatric arm, racing arm, protest arm (Mag) ect ect, but the voice of all these concerns was vested under management to one small group then our voice would be very loud indeed.

My own issue is I totally support Anne and their sentiments about running with the hounds, however I also support Les in that sometimes to gain you have to know when to join sides - the Maori Party as an example.

[Mom]

How many members does MAG NZ have now?

We made our website public 21 days ago.

We currently have 103 fully paid up members and 50 odd that are yet to pay their sub. Not a bad effort really as we are not "officially launched" yet and very little promotion has been done.

Ask me that question in a months time, I think you may be in for a shock :D

[AD345]

Hmmm

I'm turning into a curmudgeon it would appear because the only response I can generate to this now is "a plague on both your houses".

Internecine spats are a major turn off and I think more than a few people are underestimating the impact of (unofficially or otherwise) launching a new action group amongst established users of a largely unregulated, chaotic internet noticeboard. KB, like most other such forums, does allow people to display all sorts of behaviours that would otherwise go largely unnoticed and it's going to be a while before the political reality of public utterances really strikes home with some - David Garrett anyone?

MAG-NZ, you're wobbling and I'd suggest a rethink and some pretty clear guidelines on how and what should be said where and when.

I've admired BRONZ's policies for a long time and it is to my eternal shame that apathy has stopped me from greater input. However - latterly the utterances of a member of the Wellington Exectuive have been such that there is no possibility of my being able to reconcile my beliefs with that espoused by a BRONZ representative - so there's no going there either.


Naivete - thy name is motorcycling.

[Big Dave]

The loudest voice in motorcycling and public opinion currently is the Ulysses club.
Weight of numbers. About 4 thousand I think.

[Mom]

MAG-NZ, you're wobbling and I'd suggest a rethink and some pretty clear guidelines on how and what should be said where and when.



Interesting comments, and I agree, there have been some very silly posts made. This is the official response that I sent out first thing this morning..

"I am moved to say something. If you are posting under the MAG-NZ flag can you please, please, please be very aware that what you post reflects directly back on MAG-NZ as a whole. I dont want to have to defend us against attack for some flippant or frankly immature posting. We are all better than that, and there is nothing that will piss people off faster than arguing with patent trolls.

I have a log on for MAG-NZ Inc on KB and will start posting official stuff via that log on. I am happy to leave my avatar with the MAG-NZ logo on it, but if any of you want to post inflamatory posts then please remove MAG-NZ from your avatars.

The end."

I really hoped to keep that one under wraps, but seeing as it has been raised publically I will show my response publically.

MAG-NZ can not be held responsible or accountable for posts made by members on an internet forum. They are personal opinions. If anyone wants the real oil can I suggest they contact one of us via http://www.mag-nz.org/about-mag-nz/founding-members
or Pm me via KB.

[beama]

Mag - the new kid on the block they are learning quickly but shouldn't put their inexperience out there publicly, One post by a Mag/bronz wanna be (guess who you are) and the boys and girls get a public telling off, that is as bad if not worse than want already be said and done, over reaction. Prod a fire and it will always get bigger, Mom.

Bronz they are running scared, just like the cat when scared will always try make it self look bigger than want it really is in this case a federation.

Boys and girls you share the sandpit play nice together.

Mag you must have enough media savey by now to know the usefulness of public spokesman
if not get one a let him/her be your public face and why is it only the founding members can speak on your organization behalf.

[beama]

The loudest voice in motorcycling and public opinion currently is the Ulysses club.
Weight of numbers. About 4 thousand I think.
who are they again

[StoneY]

If you read the rest of the posts after mine you will see there is a discussion about having two separate organisations attempting to represent the motorcycle community on the various issues such as ACC and levies ect, I've just checked the dictionary and one becoming two makes a division does it not except that there was already two groups in his ear now there will be three.

One never became 2 at all, nor is it now 3

BRONZ had 5 regional branches, with no actual National Unified voice

Wellington Branch is tasked with focusing on Parliamentary and Political matters

We felt this could not be done by one regional branch without at least oversight and input from the other 4 regions, yet BRONZ National was long ago struck off the books.
This largely occurred because until last years ACC Levy issue's there had been no recent hardcore discrimination against Motorcyclists

We felt a National body to speak as a national voice for BRONZ was needed, and as the regions wished to remain autonomous and focus on their REGION's needs primarily, discussions started to happen and the flavour of choice was a Federation of the existing regional branches to be formed, effectively uniting all 5 branches, while they remain uniquely regional.

Many branches have their own charity events, relations with various local bodies and authorities, it was not going to work the way BRONZ National of old did so we took a fresh approach.

This took over 6 months to achieve, nothing was done in a hurry and all branches had a say in how we went forward together

In short, no BRONZ is NOT 2 organizations.....and never has been.
All branches have the same goals, the Federation is merely the tool for National announcements, combined projects, and to give us a little more political credibility on the wider stage

As in the formal statement attached at the beginning of this thread, we offer support and will be happy to work with all other Motorcycle groups of any kind for Bikers Rights and continue to uphold the core values that BRONZ was formed upon

[beama]

One never became 2 at all, nor is it now 3

BRONZ had 5 regional branches, with no actual National Unified voice

Wellington Branch is tasked with focusing on Parliamentary and Political matters

We felt this could not be done by one regional branch without at least oversight and input from the other 4 regions, yet BRONZ National was long ago struck off the books.
This largely occurred because until last years ACC Levy issue's there had been no recent hardcore discrimination against Motorcyclists

We felt a National body to speak as a national voice for BRONZ was needed, and as the regions wished to remain autonomous and focus on their REGION's needs primarily, discussions started to happen and the flavour of choice was a Federation of the existing regional branches to be formed, effectively uniting all 5 branches, while they remain uniquely regional.

Many branches have their own charity events, relations with various local bodies and authorities, it was not going to work the way BRONZ National of old did so we took a fresh approach.

This took over 6 months to achieve, nothing was done in a hurry and all branches had a say in how we went forward together

In short, no BRONZ is NOT 2 organizations.....and never has been.
All branches have the same goals, the Federation is merely the tool for National announcements, combined projects, and to give us a little more political credibility on the wider stage

As in the formal statement attached at the beginning of this thread, we offer support and will be happy to work with all other Motorcycle groups of any kind for Bikers Rights and continue to uphold the core values that BRONZ was formed upon

at last, MAG I believe you've been invited to the sand pit and your reply is............

Oh stoney Bronz spokesperson............... Hint MAG

[phill-k]

One never became 2 at all, nor is it now 3

BRONZ had 5 regional branches, with no actual National Unified voice

Wellington Branch is tasked with focusing on Parliamentary and Political matters

We felt this could not be done by one regional branch without at least oversight and input from the other 4 regions, yet BRONZ National was long ago struck off the books.
This largely occurred because until last years ACC Levy issue's there had been no recent hardcore discrimination against Motorcyclists

We felt a National body to speak as a national voice for BRONZ was needed, and as the regions wished to remain autonomous and focus on their REGION's needs primarily, discussions started to happen and the flavour of choice was a Federation of the existing regional branches to be formed, effectively uniting all 5 branches, while they remain uniquely regional.

Many branches have their own charity events, relations with various local bodies and authorities, it was not going to work the way BRONZ National of old did so we took a fresh approach.

This took over 6 months to achieve, nothing was done in a hurry and all branches had a say in how we went forward together

In short, no BRONZ is NOT 2 organizations.....and never has been.
All branches have the same goals, the Federation is merely the tool for National announcements, combined projects, and to give us a little more political credibility on the wider stage

As in the formal statement attached at the beginning of this thread, we offer support and will be happy to work with all other Motorcycle groups of any kind for Bikers Rights and continue to uphold the core values that BRONZ was formed upon

I was not referring to the number of individual branches of Bronz, I was in fact referring to all the different organisations that want our membership and wish to speak on behalf of Motorcyclists.
Personally I would prefer in our small country to have but one organisation who has the overall responsibility of representing those that wish to be represented.
Take for instance the NZ Yachting Federation, they are the official voice for yacht racing in NZ and represent all the extremes of yachting in NZ.

I don't doubt that all those who have formed lobby groups for our good are dedicated to their agenda, however having just one united voice would be louder when it comes to lobbying government.

[avgas]

I was not referring to the number of individual branches of Bronz, I was in fact referring to all the different organisations that want our membership and wish to speak on behalf of Motorcyclists.
Personally I would prefer in our small country to have but one organisation who has the overall responsibility of representing those that wish to be represented.
Don't worry BRONZ do a pretty good job at assuming this.
However it got questioned when a certain person made comments, and all the bikers in NZ said "Hang on, that's not what we want - where is your agenda?".........so rather than apologize and improve the process that BRONZ get in contact with the public, they figure if they open more branches, and all the branches say the same thing - this is a better representation of what the country thinks.
Isn't it?

[riffer]

Don't worry BRONZ do a pretty good job at assuming this.
However it got questioned when a certain person made comments, and all the bikers in NZ said "Hang on, that's not what we want - where is your agenda?".........so rather than apologize and improve the process that BRONZ get in contact with the public, they figure if they open more branches, and all the branches say the same thing - this is a better representation of what the country thinks.
Isn't it?


The trouble with representation is, that you can only represent the people that want to be represented. If TPTB want to talk to motorcycling community representation, and they decide that BRONZ are one of those people, we present the opinions of our members, and this is considered as part of the consultation process.

At no point have BRONZ indicated that they represent EVERY biker, just like any other biker representation group.

What's YOUR agenda?

[Robbo]

who are they again

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you've never left the farm yet as opposed to being totally ignorant. They are a club for over 40's motorcycle enthusiasts and riders.

[avgas]

At no point have BRONZ indicated that they represent EVERY biker, just like any other biker representation group.
What's YOUR agenda?
At no point have BRONZ claimed otherwise.
Please tell me when BRONZ stated - "We do not represent the voice of all motorcyclists in NZ"

My agenda is simple - questioning the need of such agencies.
This may come as a surprise - but as an individual I too have a voice. One that does not need a bullshit hierarchy to be heard.

Its a bit hard to have any form of Democracy when it goes through Chinese whispers.

[Luckylegs]

Did someone say Chinese democracy... Great album!!!...

[riffer]

At no point have BRONZ claimed otherwise.
Please tell me when BRONZ stated - "We do not represent the voice of all motorcyclists in NZ"

The Bikers Rights Organisation New Zealand (BRONZ) has existed for many years and supports the rights of motorcyclists. THE AIMS OF BRONZ Wellington INC are:



To promote road safety through road user education.
Education rather than legislation saves lives.
To protect and promote the rights of the motorcyclist to decide his/her own future as a road user.
Let those who ride decide.
To promote and protect the general welfare of the motorcycling public.

You see dude, supporting and protecting the rights, and promoting and protecting welfare does not mean representing the voice. I guess it's possible that maybe at one time the collective voice of motorcycling may conflict with promoting and protecting the general welfare of the motorcycling public.

One particular example could be if the anti-helmet law became an issue again.

[davereid]

Actually, I think having two political groups, plus the massive number of people in Ulysses as a third voice will be a great advantage to us.

While Central Government may desire to have only one group to dismiss or discredit, now it has two, or possibly three.

And when it claims it will consult, it now has to consider three groups.

It would be naive to assume that all three groups would simultaneously obtain a representative at NZTA or Ministry of Transport tables, having three focussed groups is a way of ensuring that we have a better chance of being there at all !

Our challenge as bikers is not to decide which (if any) of the groups we will support. It is to ensure that our groups always get a seat at the table, a consultation from media, and that bikers are heard.

MAG does not detract from BRONZ, it adds to it.

We double our chances of a seat, a press release and a say, as long as we don't allow them to divide us.

[scumdog]

I'm not sure if I should ask this question, but why have we now got two groups lobbying on motorcycle issues - Bronz & MAG

Did I not read somewhere that to divide and conquer is how wars are won?

T'was my immediate thought too....

[chasio]

T'was my immediate thought too....

Don't wars get fought both on the front line and behind enemy lines?

I don't see that having BRONZ working more inside the system and MAG-NZ working more outside of it is a bad strategy at all.

[Conquiztador]

Following a meeting of representatives of the current BRONZ branches a New Zealand Federation has been established.
Press Release attached.

And.... + 10 char

[Pixie]

No idea. We've gone from having half a dozen volunteers and nobody really caring 12 months ago, to 2 groups with the same cause developing different agendas.

My vote and money stays firmly with BRONZ.

Like all politics I guess - because of the people, policy and their past achievements.
You might call that a blip.
I'm certainly not going to rejoin and as bronz have only sent me three emails in a year I expect they will fail to send me a resubsciption request.
Don't worry BD,I know how passionate you are about bronz (I've stopped capitalising it too),you should be old enough to join Ulysses by now.

[Pixie]

The loudest voice in motorcycling and public opinion currently is the Ulysses club.
Weight of numbers. About 4 thousand I think.
I can't hear you....

Why did the pres of Ulysses need a good boot to get him off his arse about ACC last year?

[Big Dave]

Nah - I'm not passionate. I try to be decent.

Admin - I don't know. Somebody giving Peggy a hand would probably sort it.

And I do stunts on a Ulysses.

[Pixie]

What did you say about *unts in Ulysses?:killingme

[Big Dave]

Did you just call me a *unt? :-)

[Brian d marge]

I can't hear you....

Why did the pres of Ulysses need a good boot to get him off his arse about ACC last year?
hear hear , I clearly remember him saying they wouldnt get involved as they were non political ...

Stephen

[Big Dave]

What I was on about in the other thread.
I only have this as hearsay and am happy to be corrected by anyone who was actually there.

In previous 'crisis' the various clubs and organisations were affiliate members of BRONZ. Their reps sat on the committee and BRONZ was their political voice/activism.

The clubs themselves were apolitical, yet active.

Nice setup I thought.

[Mom]

Actually,

Our challenge as bikers is not to decide which (if any) of the groups we will support. It is to ensure that our groups always get a seat at the table, a consultation from media, and that bikers are heard.

MAG does not detract from BRONZ, it adds to it.

We double our chances of a seat, a press release and a say, as long as we don't allow them to divide us.

Division is only there if people desire it to be. I dont know how many times I have to state that it is not us and them, it is not. MAG-NZ will step up and say get stuffed on behalf of the motorcyclists (bikers) of NZ, and while being politically neutral we will not be politically neutered! If it needs saying, we will say it, to whoever it needs to be said to.


Don't wars get fought both on the front line and behind enemy lines?

I don't see that having BRONZ working more inside the system and MAG-NZ working more outside of it is a bad strategy at all.

You would think that others could see the same.


BRONZ was their political voice/activism.

The clubs themselves were apolitical, yet active.

Nice setup I thought.

I agree, nice set up, sadly the model got broken somewhere along the line. Did you know that John Minto was a founding member of BRONZ? The plot got lost a long time ago...

[Big Dave]

Nah sorry - Don't know John Minto.

I did spend a bit of time ringing around and finding out what is actually going on today - rather than idly speculating online.

That model is certainly history.