MAG-NZ opposes the Motorcycle Safety Levy

[Mom]

MAG-NZ is opposed to the Motorcycle Safety Levy

MAG-NZ is opposed to the Motorcycle Safety Levy (MSL) due to the discriminatory funding model it is based on, and believes any motorcycle specific campaigns should be funded from the general account as other campaigns are. We intend to help ACC achieve their target of lowering motorcycle accidents by highlighting roads for improvement, and encouraging the provision and participation in rider training courses, for both learner and experienced motorcyclists, and reducing the severity of remaining accidents by promoting the use motorcycle friendly road furniture.

Motorcycle Action Group of New Zealand Inc, (MAG-NZ) believes that as private road users we all have a right to travel and enjoy our great country – whether we chose to drive a car, van or 4x4, or ride a motorcycle, scooter or trike – we should all be equal on our roads.

Because the MSL is based on an inequality of road users, MAG-NZ cannot support it. Additionally the ACC levy increase from which the MSL is collected is based on inconsistent and heavily manipulated statistics. The establishment of such a group undermines the "No Fault" principles on which ACC was founded, and puts the scheme in danger of becoming simply “Victim Pays”.

The MSL has been introduced along with the heavily opposed increase in levies as an additional charge; ostensibly to be channeled towards “safety initiatives”. A number of representatives from motorcycling groups are currently proposing how the funding could be spent to benefit their members and the wider motorcycling community. MAG-NZ will not have any representation in the MSL establishment group; now, or at any time in the future, due to the reasons outlined above.

MAG-NZ is currently taking action to work with local authorities and alongside regional ACC offices to provide for tangible, meaningful and measurable improvement in safety for motorcyclists. Utilising proactive, effective ACTION along with member contribution, donations and sponsorship, MAG-NZ hopes to achieve significantly more than the MSL or any other mandatory or penalty based schemes will ever be able to.

[Eyegasm]

I can understand opposing the MSL, but it aint going away. No matter how many toys you throw out of the cot. The best thing we can do is have a voice in the way it is utilised.

As the MSL team is consisted of mainly bike organisations I feel much better about where the funding will go.

[Mom]

As the MSL team is consisted of mainly bike organisations I feel much better about where the funding will go.

All well and good, but that just means they have accepted the levies and the changes that are being brought to ACC and have in fact gone back on some of their core beliefs.

It is one thing to say that there should only be one levy for all road users, quite another to help spend the unjust levy increases. Personally I dont think you can have it both ways.

[MSTRS]

Besides, there's this little snippet....
Most? clubs are affiliated to MNZ. At a recent event, a club member was heard to say, and I quote, "The levy on each bike is to be spent in that bike's home region. This club wants our share of those funds."

Made me sick.

And MNZ claim to be the ultimate spokesmen for bikers, because "they have the largest membership of any bike organisation'. Really? The claim is spurious, although true. MNZ control racing in this country, and because most racers also belong to a club, such as AMCC, VMCC, PMCC etc, which are all affiliated to MNZ, giving rise to the so-called huge membership. The truth is very few individuals would go anywhere near MNZ as a representative body.

[StoneY]

The MSL is OUR funds not ACC's as set by law Anne.
You really dont understand what it is obviously.

ACC foot the entire cost of administration and process design for how the MSL will run from the general operations budget, not from the MSL itself. At great cost to, I will add.
ACC have NO say in how the MSL will be spent at all, the reps from the motorcycle community will be approving or declining the porposals that are placed before the advisory council (still being formed at ACC's cost not ours)

I have been privy to much data as of late that shows where the true cost lies in ACC's outgoings related to Biker injuries
While 250cc bikes make up 80+% of crashes, they still cost way less than the 601cc+ accidents in total outgoings - take deep breath please

Us BIG bike riders do crash at faster speed, often outside 'The Golden Hour' (eg Forgotten Highway etc) and require airlifts in many cases as opposed to being dropped off at AnE by a mate with a sprained ankle needing 2 days off work.
We also tend to be higher earners needing more time off work

While I still agree with your viewpoint on 'the core beliefes of ACC being compromised' unfortunately we are unable to repeal the levy increase, and we are unable to have it made any lower until our injury costs/frequency comes down.
Ergo, the only recourse left is to work WITH ACC and the current government (note the use of current) proactively for the current term.

At least the MSL is OURS to manage, by law, and will never be spent on such already funded systems as road improvements or enforcement, and will be channeled into education, training and genuine motorcycle related projects.
I would like to see the 30$ ring fenced become 60$ (without further increase mind you)

I agree to continue campainging to see motorcycles treated exactly as any other passneger vehicle, but reallity is it is no longer 1972 and we are no longer enjoying the priveledges of a largely welfare based support system.

I have chosen to move ahead with what we do have, and make sure the MSL is utilized as intended.

When the government changes again, maybe we can have the unfair treatment we experienced under this one turned around, untill then we should work at reducing our injury rate as best we can, and be satisfied with the gains we made from BIKEOI and Mr Macintosh's intervention to get the MSL established and protected by law, a small victory but a victory all the same.

Brent

[StoneY]

Besides, there's this little snippet....

"The levy on each bike is to be spent in that bike's home region. This club wants our share of those funds." .

Thats serious misinformation MRSTRS
It will not be spent regionally at all, and MNZ are only one of 8 organisation involved.

Myth busted have a great day

Ciao

[MSTRS]

Mis-information it may be. It came directly from a respected club member (who had certain other things to say, as well). He was reporting what had 'come out of a recent get together of the MSL members'.
Something stinks, and it aint my armpits.

[Ronin]

The MSL is OUR funds not ACC's as set by law Anne.
You really dont understand what it is obviously.

ACC foot the entire cost of administration and process design for how the MSL will run from the general operations budget, not from the MSL itself. At great cost to, I will add.
ACC have NO say in how the MSL will be spent at all, the reps from the motorcycle community will be approving or declining the porposals that are placed before the advisory council (still being formed at ACC's cost not ours)

I have been privy to much data as of late that shows where the true cost lies in ACC's outgoings related to Biker injuries
While 250cc bikes make up 80+% of crashes, they still cost way less than the 601cc+ accidents in total outgoings - take deep breath please

Us BIG bike riders do crash at faster speed, often outside 'The Golden Hour' (eg Forgotten Highway etc) and require airlifts in many cases as opposed to being dropped off at AnE by a mate with a sprained ankle needing 2 days off work.
We also tend to be higher earners needing more time off work

While I still agree with your viewpoint on 'the core beliefes of ACC being compromised' unfortunately we are unable to repeal the levy increase, and we are unable to have it made any lower until our injury costs/frequency comes down.
Ergo, the only recourse left is to work WITH ACC and the current government (note the use of current) proactively for the current term.

At least the MSL is OURS to manage, by law, and will never be spent on such already funded systems as road improvements or enforcement, and will be channeled into education, training and genuine motorcycle related projects.
I would like to see the 30$ ring fenced become 60$ (without further increase mind you)

I agree to continue campainging to see motorcycles treated exactly as any other passneger vehicle, but reallity is it is no longer 1972 and we are no longer enjoying the priveledges of a largely welfare based support system.

I have chosen to move ahead with what we do have, and make sure the MSL is utilized as intended.

When the government changes again, maybe we can have the unfair treatment we experienced under this one turned around, untill then we should work at reducing our injury rate as best we can, and be satisfied with the gains we made from BIKEOI and Mr Macintosh's intervention to get the MSL established and protected by law, a small victory but a victory all the same.

Brent

So how the worm turns. The govenment tactic of absorb and redirect seems to be working well for them. What you have written above is in direct contradiction to everything you have written before.

The saying "Et tu, Brute" springs to mind.

[Eyegasm]

So how the worm turns. The govenment tactic of absorb and redirect seems to be working well for them. What you have written above is in direct contradiction to everything you have written before.

The saying "Et tu, Brute" springs to mind.

Or it could be that they were running around half-cocked with misinformation.

Also, MAG is going on about one road user levy for all But then is trying to get the road toll charges removed...

If we are to be as "One" then shouldn't we be treated as "One" not fight for dispensation from a particular part that we do not like?

[bogan]

While I still agree with your viewpoint on 'the core beliefes of ACC being compromised' unfortunately we are unable to repeal the levy increase, and we are unable to have it made any lower until our injury costs/frequency comes down.
Ergo, the only recourse left is to work WITH ACC and the current government (note the use of current) proactively for the current term.

well not with that attitude we won't! Can we still count on BRONZ to support (by encouraging members to turn up) MAG-NZ rides and rallys on this issue? Cos we certainly haven't given up.

[MSTRS]

It's all about perceptions, innit?

A line from an old song comes to mind...
The working class can kiss my arse
I've got the foreman's job at last

[bogan]

Also, MAG is going on about one road user levy for all But then is trying to get the road toll charges removed...

If we are to be as "One" then shouldn't we be treated as "One" not fight for dispensation from a particular part that we do not like?

The road toll principals differ to the woodhouse principals, road tolls are based on wear and tear to the road (generally because they must pay for the build cost, or operation of said road), while the woodhouse principals are no fault and one levy for all. Road users all create wear and tear so there is no discrimination by charging some more than others, not all road users have the same accident rate/payout rate/risk factor so it is discriminatory to charge some far more than others.

I hope this answers your question, as being an MSL thread we don't want to get too sidetracked.

[Eyegasm]

The road toll principals differ to the woodhouse principals, road tolls are based on wear and tear to the road (generally because they must pay for the build cost, or operation of said road), while the woodhouse principals are no fault and one levy for all. Road users all create wear and tear so there is no discrimination by charging some more than others, not all road users have the same accident rate/payout rate/risk factor so it is discriminatory to charge some far more than others.

I hope this answers your question, as being an MSL thread we don't want to get too sidetracked.

I am not trying to sidetrack the thread, as this is about MAG opposing the MSL.

Yet what I am trying to understand is that they believe that we should be treated the
same as other road users in regards to the levy but believe we should be treated differently
in regards to road tolls.

The way I see it is that we want the pie but want to pick out the bits we do not like.

[bogan]

I am not trying to sidetrack the thread, as this is about MAG opposing the MSL.

Yet what I am trying to understand is that they believe that we should be treated the
same as other road users in regards to the levy but believe we should be treated differently
in regards to road tolls.

The way I see it is that we want the pie but want to pick out the bits we do not like.

Fair enough. I can't really put it any better than I have above, in one case there is discrimination against us, in one there is not and nor is their discrimination against others for our benefit.

[rustic101]

Because the MSL is based on an inequality of road users, MAG-NZ cannot support it. Additionally the ACC levy increase from which the MSL is collected is based on inconsistent and heavily manipulated statistics. The establishment of such a group undermines the "No Fault" principles on which ACC was founded, and puts the scheme in danger of becoming simply “Victim Pays”.

No disrespect meant in my post.

I believe MAG will be selling their members short by not being included in the future shape and direction of the MSL. A reality is it (MSL) will go ahead, there is no way it will be rolled back. How can MAG will influence or contribute from the 'outside'? You will be seen as 'just another minority'.

There is strength in unity; not just with what we are all trying to achieve but also in the message fed back to our community, which is evident in some of the misunderstanding and miscommunication I have seen, even in this thread.

MAG comment on addressing; 'lowering motorcycle accidents by highlighting roads for improvement, and encouraging the provision and participation in rider training courses, for both learner and experienced motorcyclists, and reducing the severity of remaining accidents by promoting the use motorcycle friendly road furniture'. What MAG is not addressing is rider psychology and attitudes towards safety - this is not covered off in rider training, and is a message that needs to be continually addressed.

My five cents..

[Mom]

No disrespect meant in my post.

I believe MAG will be selling their members short by not being included in the future shape and direction of the MSL. A reality is it (MSL) will go ahead, there is no way it will be rolled back. How can MAG will influence or contribute from the 'outside'? You will be seen as 'just another minority'.



None taken. I believe Mag will be selling their members short if we go back on one of the fundamental principles we believe in. We are opposed to the erosion of the Woodhouse principles that founded ACC, we want one levy for all, we have said it from the start and wont be backing down from that stance.

Look, none of us are enemies here, we have to trust, just as you do, that these groups representing bikers on the MSL EG do have our best interests at heart and will "spend" the MSL wisely for the benefit of all, not just themselves. This is not an us and them situation.

Mag-NZ was and still is opposed to the fact that the MSL was imposed, we never agreed to it, and will continue to campaign against unfair and discriminatory treatment of the motorcyclists of New Zealand.

[MSTRS]

Also, MAG is going on about one road user levy for all But then is trying to get the road toll charges removed...


Had to laugh about this...

MAG-NZ will support the removal of charges for motorcycles on all toll roads.
One line in MAG-NZ's position statement. I don't see this as a call to war, as you seem to be suggesting. Supporting removal is NOT the same as fighting for it. Besides, there are, what?, 2 toll roads in NZ, and no-one is forced to use them. Might be different if there wasn't an alternative road available...

[StoneY]

Mis-information it may be. It came directly from a respected club member (who had certain other things to say, as well). He was reporting what had 'come out of a recent get together of the MSL members'.
Something stinks, and it aint my armpits.

Oh really? Club name, members name?
Facts please not inuendo or suggestive comment, FACTS!
I sit on that committee in person bro, and never heard ANYTHING even remotely like that stated whatsoever.

[MSTRS]

Not on open forum, mate.
I'm not sure that I should even mention specifics beyond the words.
But rest assured, what I said above is exactly what was told to a room full of people.
Jim Tuckerman was there and he did not deny any of it - you can ask him.

[Waxxa]

I too think that to acheive change you need to be on the 'inside' rather than oppose from the 'outside'.

Is there any sense in waiting to see what this levy goes towards first before we start spewing?!

If this levy is going in the right direction that is voiced from Motorcyclists...cool! (having said that, a lot of riders aren't gonna pay their regos or start doing 6mths not 12mths so revenue will not be as large as expected hence to smaller payouts on improvements).

[Paul S]

Not on open forum, mate.
I'm not sure that I should even mention specifics beyond the words.
But rest assured, what I said above is exactly what was told to a room full of people.
Jim Tuckerman was there and he did not deny any of it - you can ask him.

Hi all,

I thought that it was appropriate that I respond to this thread as I am the Motorcycling New Zealand (MNZ) representative on the MSL establishment group.

Unfortunately you appear to have aquired a number of small snippets of information and created a wrong conclusion and posted it in a public forum.
MNZ has a number of clubs and members who currently work with Local Body Road Safety coordinators around NZ to assist in a range of programs aimed at motorcycle safety. These are and have been operating for a number of years in many cases. There is a new initiative mooted for the Bay. This has nothing to do with the Motorcycle Safety Levy and anybody stating that it is, is incorrect.

Paul Searancke

[StoneY]

Hi all,

I thought that it was appropriate that I respond to this thread
Paul Searancke

Thanks Paul

I can confirm this is true as paul has stated, we are both on the MSL

Cheers all

[MSTRS]

In which case, I thank you for the correct info.
However, if people 'close' to the MSL group are going round talking about the levy and getting monies from ACC for good works, then there is never going to be a lot of trust in those that have been appointed, or invited on the MSL committee on behalf of us all.
Put in other words...there are those with agendas that make it hard to know who to believe as regards what happens with money that we oppose being taken in the first place.

[bogan]

No disrespect meant in my post.

I believe MAG will be selling their members short by not being included in the future shape and direction of the MSL. A reality is it (MSL) will go ahead, there is no way it will be rolled back. How can MAG will influence or contribute from the 'outside'? You will be seen as 'just another minority'.

There is strength in unity; not just with what we are all trying to achieve but also in the message fed back to our community, which is evident in some of the misunderstanding and miscommunication I have seen, even in this thread.

MAG comment on addressing; 'lowering motorcycle accidents by highlighting roads for improvement, and encouraging the provision and participation in rider training courses, for both learner and experienced motorcyclists, and reducing the severity of remaining accidents by promoting the use motorcycle friendly road furniture'. What MAG is not addressing is rider psychology and attitudes towards safety - this is not covered off in rider training, and is a message that needs to be continually addressed.

My five cents..

The MSL is tied in with the rego increase, we feel we cannot support one while trying to get the other overturned. And MAG-NZ has big plans to continue to fight the levy increases!

If we get support like MAG-UK has, we will certainly not be seen as just another minority.

We encourage road users of all types to take responsibility for their actions, whether this results in direct campaign action or just our principals is still up for debate, bear in mind we haven't even had our official launch yet!

And your unbiased and intelligent comments are more than welcome!

[admenk]

I'm a bit torn on this one. Part of me agrees that it's often better to work with the system (ACC in this case) to change it, while part of me worries that by doing that, we give out the signal (however unintentional) that we've all accepted the rise in levies.

Maybe a dual approach of BRONZ (and others) working for change from within, and MAG working for change from without, is the way to go. In that case, we all need to respect each other's differences of opinion on how it's done, and concentrate on reaching the final goal.

One thing that that Nick Smith would love, is for us all to start slagging each other off over which is the best approach.

[yungatart]

I believe that there is room for both approaches here. Those who see it is fine to take our blood money and spend it on us, and those who don't.

Each is entitled to their view. I happen to side with MAG-NZ on this one.

In fact, those that oppose the talking of the blood money in the first place are in the position of keeping those with their hands on the purse strings honest. There is a real danger that a whole industry can be set up around the MSL with a vested interest in keeping it going.

[Bald Eagle]

There is a real danger that a whole industry can be set up around the MSL with a vested interest in keeping it going.

It's a much smaller gravy train than either Parliamentary salaries or Treaty Industry costs, so I think we can afford it. :lol:

[yungatart]

It's a much smaller gravy train than either Parliamentary salaries or Treaty Industry costs, so I think we can afford it. :lol:

So that makes it okay?

I don't think you speak for me....I certainly can't afford it...like many others I can't afford my rego increase either.

[Bald Eagle]

I knew we needed a serious tongue in cheek being sarccy smillie.

[bogan]

I knew we needed a serious tongue in cheek being sarccy smillie.

I use the :shifty: or :whistle: ones. Maybe you can answer the question stoney ignored, will bronz support (by encouraging it members to turn up) MAG anti-levy-increase rides or rallys?

[caseye]

No disrespect meant in my post.

I believe MAG will be selling their members short by not being included in the future shape and direction of the MSL. A reality is it (MSL) will go ahead, there is no way it will be rolled back. How can MAG will influence or contribute from the 'outside'? You will be seen as 'just another minority'.

There is strength in unity; not just with what we are all trying to achieve but also in the message fed back to our community, which is evident in some of the misunderstanding and miscommunication I have seen, even in this thread.

MAG comment on addressing; 'lowering motorcycle accidents by highlighting roads for improvement, and encouraging the provision and participation in rider training courses, for both learner and experienced motorcyclists, and reducing the severity of remaining accidents by promoting the use motorcycle friendly road furniture'. What MAG is not addressing is rider psychology and attitudes towards safety - this is not covered off in rider training, and is a message that needs to be continually addressed.

My five cents..

Well said and noted,Flippant commetn coming, see Katman for support re physc analysis, he's been right all the time.
Good post.

[Squiggles]

I use the :shifty: or :whistle: ones. Maybe you can answer the question stoney ignored, will bronz support (by encouraging it members to turn up) MAG anti-levy-increase rides or rallys?

I believe the Auckland branch made a motion to that effect in November, supporting any protest that wasn't intentionally disruptive etc etc (I dont remember the exact wording)


Would Mag-NZ be "happy" if the levy's were the same as for other private passenger vehicles, but $30 of that amount was ringfenced for Motorcycle safety? Is that discriminatory?

[caseye]

I think that any support from one organisation to another is a good thing.
I believe that both organisations )and of course the other MSL members) will need some time to come to understand and be comfortable with each others positions. I'd like instantaneous and unqualified support for MAG-NZ from all other organisations but I'm old enough to know that that will only come with dialogue and mutual respect.
Lets not forget that this discusision is being hosted by another organisation that has in the past supported BRONZ and now helps MAG-NZ as well, they see the wisdom in allowing both groups access here and i'm sure they hope that over time a concensus Not a shit fight will develop.

[bogan]

I believe the Auckland branch made a motion to that effect in November, supporting any protest that wasn't intentionally disruptive etc etc (I dont remember the exact wording)


Would Mag-NZ be "happy" if the levy's were the same as for other private passenger vehicles, but $30 of that amount was ringfenced for Motorcycle safety? Is that discriminatory?

thanks for that, as admenk said, it'd enable bikers to combat the issue from strong positions at both ends. and yeh, it's not the money being ringfenced, it's the higher levy that we object to, so pretty sure MAG would have no objection there.

[Mom]

One thing that that Nick Smith would love, is for us all to start slagging each other off over which is the best approach.

Well I am quite certain I speak on behalf of the management committee of MAG-NZ in saying that we will not be slagging anyone off for what they do and their efforts on behalf of motorcyclists. We just reserve the right to stand firm on our principles and speak up when we feel things are not right.

[Lucyloo]

the reps from the motorcycle community will be approving or declining the porposals that are placed before the advisory council (still being formed at ACC's cost not ours)

Do I have a say in who represents me?

[MSTRS]

the reps from the motorcycle community will be approving or declining the porposals that are placed before the advisory council (still being formed at ACC's cost not ours)

Do I have a say in who represents me?

No.
But you can join the organisation that most closely resembles your particular needs, and perhaps influence how they go about representing your views.

[bogan]

No.
But you can join the organisation that most closely resembles your particular needs, and perhaps influence how they go about representing your views.

and those who resent being forced to pay for it in the first place, can join mag eh :Pokey: cmon, you know ya want to :whistle: yes, you, we need you! :laugh:

[Katman]

The MSL is tied in with the rego increase, we feel we cannot support one while trying to get the other overturned. And MAG-NZ has big plans to continue to fight the levy increases!



Whooaa! Let's back the bus up a little.

The ACC levy increase was directly attributable to the 'out of proportion' cost that motorcyclists cost this country.

A lot of you bang on about the Woodhouse principle. Quite frankly I don't give a fat rat's arse about the Woodhouse principle.

When we can show irrefutable proof that we are starting to seriously address the issue of us having accidents then maybe then we will have sound reasoning to be aggrieved by the increase.

In the meantime the MSL is something that motorcyclists need to be involved in. MAG-NZ ignore it at their peril.

[bogan]

Whooaa! Lets back the bus up a little.

The ACC levy increase was directly attributable to the 'out of proportion' cost that motorcyclists cost this country.

A lot of you bang on about the Woodhouse principle. Quite frankly I don't give a fat rat's arse about the Woodhouse principle.

When we can show irrefutable proof that we are starting to seriously address the issue of us having accidents then maybe then we will have sound reasoning to be aggrieved by the increase.

In the meantime the MSL is something that motorcyclists need to be involved in. MAG-NZ ignore it at their peril.

We've done the arguments for/against the levy hike to death in other threads, the majority are against them. The MSL is part of that hike.

MAG-NZ does not ignore the safety issue, we simply plan to deal with it without using these 'tainted' (in our opinion) funds.

[MSTRS]

MAG-NZ does not ignore the safety issue, we simply plan to deal with it without using these 'tainted' (in our opinion) funds.

It's not rocket science, eh?

Nothing against the various organisations on the MSL committee. Problem is, it's people at the coalface. And those people may (or may not) have personal agendas in what/why they are on that committee. It's a matter of trust, you see. And so far, despite some of the posts in here, I've only heard stuff that puts me off trusting...

[Katman]

It's a matter of trust, you see. And so far, despite some of the posts in here, I've only heard stuff that puts me off trusting...

It's also a matter of acceptance.

Motorcyclists need to accept that we are crashing far too often and costing the country far more than our numbers can justify.

Then it's a matter of whether we accept the increase.

The way I see it, we have no right to not accept it until we pull our heads out of our arses and start addressing why we are crashing so often.

Please don't let MAG-NZ become just another motorcycling organisation who refuses to accept the cold hard truth.

[Mom]

Please don't let MAG-NZ become just another motorcycling organisation who refuses to accept the cold hard truth.

The cold hard truth is there are far too many bikers killing themselves on our roads. I doubt you will find anyone that disputes that horrible fact.

Far too many newly returned riders ( I dont like "born again" when used to describe a biker,once a biker always a biker) are over estimating their skills, and underestimating all the other crap that a healthy, well honed, experienced, educated spidey sense tells you to watch out for. Then there is the added spice of hormones, and they can not be ruled out either.

Some dont make it easy for you and me in lots of ways, BUT...

You can not hold the majority to blame for the minority weaknesses and stupidity.

[bogan]

Please don't let MAG-NZ become just another motorcycling organisation who refuses to accept the cold hard truth.

The cold hard truth is a different issue from the levies, an increase in levies does nothing to curb the accident rate (bar removing some bikes from the road), furthermore ACC was not set up to allocate treatment costs to user classes. As stated earlier, we most certainly do have plans to deal with some aspects of the cold hard truth.

[Katman]

The cold hard truth is a different issue from the levies

No, the 'cold hard truth' and the increase in levies are inseparable.

Sort out the 'cold hard truth' and both BRONZ and MAG-NZ would suddenly be scratching their arses trying to find issues that need rectifying.

[bogan]

No, the cold hard truth and the increase in levies are inseparable.

Sort out the cold hard truth and both BRONZ and MAG-NZ would suddenly be scratching their arses trying to find issues that need rectifying.

it's both, inseparable, and different issues. Inseperable in that the crash rate caused the levy hike, different issue in that it shouldn't have, as set out in the woodhouse principals. You may not believe they are required or useful, but that is where I find the difference in issues arises from.

[Katman]

it's both, inseparable, and different issues. Inseperable in that the crash rate caused the levy hike, different issue in that it shouldn't have, as set out in the woodhouse principals. You may not believe they are required or useful, but that is where I find the difference in issues arises from.

I'm going to shoot that useless motherfucker Woodhouse.

All he's achieved is a country full of whinging bludgers.

[bogan]

I'm going to shoot that motherfucker Woodhouse.

All he's achieved is a country full of whinging bludgers.

eh, did he set up the dole and dpb as well?

dammit, you got me into this debate after all, enough, we've been over it before, I'll leave the last word to you...

[riffer]

My personal question to everyone is:

In the interests of transparency, I challenge certain parties to reveal behind-the-scenes correspondence regarding how to get their hands on MSL funding. :whistle:

It might make this thread a lot clearer.

[Mom]

It might make this thread a lot clearer.

The purpose of this thread is very clear, the title of it should have offered a BIG CLUE. The purpose of this thread to is to announce very clearly that MAG-NZ oppose the collection of the MSL. Nothing more, nothing less. However, as you seem hell bent on sugesting something that is not intended, and as I am not sure why you want to go down this track, and you continue to insist here is my spin.


In the interests of transparency, I challenge certain parties to reveal behind-the-scenes correspondence regarding how to get their hands on MSL funding. :whistle:

My understanding of where things are is pretty simple. No decisions have been made as to the make up of the committee/group/quango that will administer the MSL that is collected has been made. Therefore no decisions have been made as to how to spend it. Frankly I have to trust the ones that are there, and are chosen to do the best they can for the motorcyclist of NZ. As MAG-NZ are not part of the MSL EG, I can only assume your challenge is to the groups that are, so lets get an answer to your question.

MAG-NZ oppose the MSL - FACT.

We will however be asking the hard questions of the participants to the MSL just how they justify the way it is spent. Probably be prudent for them to really be seen to be consulting with the motorcyclists of NZ though.




* Edit* as MAG-NZ are not involved with the MSL EG I can only assuem you mean the groups that are actually part of the MSL, and frankly I agree with you. Lets hear how things are going in the discussions. Where they are, and what is being proposed. Seems fair really.

[Squiggles]

* Edit* as MAG-NZ are not involved with the MSL EG I can only assuem you mean the groups that are actually part of the MSL, and frankly I agree with you. Lets hear how things are going in the discussions. Where they are, and what is being proposed. Seems fair really.

I can assure you and everyone else that as things develop from infancy press releases etc will follow to keep everyone informed.

[Maha]

I think it is brilliant that, if nothing else, MAG-NZ has 'encouraged', possibly even 'evoked' BRONZ to show thier hand to a wider audiance.......its taken a while and I can only magine how BRONZ members must be feeling.

[NONONO]

No absolutely not.
Not Katman, not StonY, No one. will ever convince me that the shonky research, the political maneuvering, the lies and bullshit ever had one thing to do with improving biker safety..
ALL about the softening up of ACC in readiness for sale.
Heard Les and BRONZ shout long and hard, StonY and the unions screamed.....
NOW we are willing to accept the levy increases as written in stone?
If any of us accept the existence of the Motorcycle Safety Levy Establishment Group, we are, by default, accepting the Motorcycle Safety Levy (also known as, another $30 on top of your rego) that we opposed at Bikoi and ever since.
I swear to god, you accept this, and those that are willing to sit hand in hand with Nick and Judge, and you are fcked, forever.
Seems some have decided that they would rather not bite that hand that feeds them.
Disgusted.....

[BMWST?]

I think it is brilliant that, if nothing else, MAG-NZ has 'encouraged', possibly even 'evoked' BRONZ to show thier hand to a wider audiance.......its taken a while and I can only magine how BRONZ members must be feeling.

what does this mean?I am a member of Bronz Wellington.I joined in the aftermath of the bikeoi because at that moment they were the group that most closely represented my view.We need to be represented.So there is some hidden agenda for Bronz now?

[NONONO]

Suggest you work it out for yourself brother.

[bogan]

personally I remember les saying (in bronz capacity) that they would be back next (this) year, the bronz website still suggest they are unhappy and will continue to fight the increases. Now we hear bronz spokespeople saying the increases are set in stone, the MSL will be spent wisely, FFS I've even seen a bronz release spouting similar misleading statistics to those of nick smith, though at least they were technically accurate.

When did this change occur, were bikers consulted? were bronz members even consulted about it? Sorry if this sounds like an attack, but I'm pissed off there won't be a bikoi 2 :angry:

note, these are my views and do not represent those of MAG.

[NONONO]

As a BRONZ member I'm pissed off......
There can be NO Bikoi 2 as what will we be opposing?
We can't oppose the levy hike, cos BRONZ and others are already talking to Nick about how to spend the $30 MSL portion of the levy hike.

[fossil]

It's not rocket science, eh?

Nothing against the various organisations on the MSL committee. Problem is, it's people at the coalface. And those people may (or may not) have personal agendas in what/why they are on that committee. It's a matter of trust, you see. And so far, despite some of the posts in here, I've only heard stuff that puts me off trusting...

To insinuate that the individuals who are representatives of the organisations on the MSLEG are untrustworthy is a big step.
I do have a question for MAG-NZ, is this attack by some of your key members a response to a disappointing initial membership drive?
Is this move to discredit any other organisations by misinformation and innuendo an attempt to rebrand MAG-NZ to fit the next highest demographic to increase your membership?

[bogan]

To insinuate that the individuals who are representatives of the organisations on the MSLEG are untrustworthy is a big step.
I do have a question for MAG-NZ, is this attack by some of your key members a response to a disappointing initial membership drive?
Is this move to discredit any other organisations by misinformation and innuendo an attempt to rebrand MAG-NZ to fit the next highest demographic to increase your membership?

sorry are you reading this thread? no discrediting misinformation here, the first post explains our position on the issue quite clearly, we have asked that other organizations show their hand as well. And considering we haven't even had our official launch or started the membership drive, we are bloody stoked with the numbers so far, thanks to all who support us!

[fossil]

sorry are you reading this thread? no discrediting misinformation here, the first post explains our position on the issue quite clearly, we have asked that other organizations show their hand as well. And considering we haven't even had our official launch or started the membership drive, we are bloody stoked with the numbers so far, thanks to all who support us!

I guess I must have read your previous post (below) wrong?

"and those who resent being forced to pay for it in the first place, can join mag eh cmon, you know ya want to yes, you, we need you!"

[Mom]

I do have a question for MAG-NZ, is this attack by some of your key members a response to a disappointing initial membership drive?
Is this move to discredit any other organisations by misinformation and innuendo an attempt to rebrand MAG-NZ to fit the next highest demographic to increase your membership?

I am not sure where you are coming from with this post, but I really invite you to contact me off forum to discuss what attack you perceive, and by what key members of MAG-NZ. I did see a member saying what he had over heard said by someone associated to MNZ, and I have also read the explanation given in response. It is a non event apparently, and that would appear to be the end of the matter.

I do also question what organisations have been discredited by my post that is to inform KB members that MAG-NZ do not support the MSL.

As far as being dissappointed by the response to the launch of our website and the members that we have gained you could not be more wrong, we are actually really humbled that we have the support of so many without really even trying.

My name is Anne James. I am the elected President of MAG-NZ, you can contact me via PM here or email me at anne.james@mag-nz.org anytime you want to chew the fat, or complain about members of MAG-NZ attacking people/organisations. I welcome your feedback.

[Squiggles]

what does this mean?I am a member of Bronz Wellington.I joined in the aftermath of the bikeoi because at that moment they were the group that most closely represented my view.We need to be represented.So there is some hidden agenda for Bronz now?

Not that I am aware of...


Aims of BRONZ(Auckland):
To Promote road safety through road user education
Education Rather Than Legislation Saves Lives
To protect and promote the rights of the motorcyclist to decide his/her own future as a road user
Let Those Who Ride Decide
To promote and protect the general welfare of the motorcycling public
What Does Being A Member of BRONZ Mean?
BRONZ is a voluntary, non-profit organization. Your membership fee goes back to you, the member, via research into proposed legislation and road safety, regular newsletters and other social activities (eg Toy Runs, Blood Run, Easter Egg Run).
Your membership entitles you as a member and a motorcyclist to a say in how the organization is run. You are entitled to vote on issues that will affect the future of motorcycling and you may contribute anything that you feel is important. You are not obliged to attend any meetings or other functions regularly, although to get the full benefit of what BRONZ offers it is suggested that you avail yourself to as many as possible.
Branch meetings are open to everyone, members are welcome to bring a friend.
Being a member of BRONZ does not interfere with membership of any other organization or club. As a member of BRONZ you are expected to behave in a manner that will not be detrimental to the good name of BRONZ and the image of motorcycling.

Mag-NZ have similar aims, but I wont copy paste them as they're a page long (http://www.mag-nz.org/about-mag-nz/position-statement)


My personal opinion is that the MSL is a poisoned challice, someone is always going to have beef with it no matter what happens. Unfortunate as some find it, it exists, and will exist even without input from organisations such as BRONZ, Ulysses, WIMA, MNZ... Do we ignore it? Let money be potentially squandered and complain it shouldnt be and shouldnt even exist? Or use it to potentially benefit Motorcyclists? I would like to see the latter and I believe everyone would. The figures in Vic speak for themself imo (50% increase in registered MC but a 31% decrease in fatalities vs a 19% increase for the rest of Aus. (I'll see if i cant get a scan/digital copy of this doc im reading from Vicroads soon)), if we can emulate that here it'd be awesome.

Fwiw I'm a member of BRONZ, MNZ and President of the Auckland Uni SMC. I'd be a member of WIMA but i'm not a woman and I'd join Ulysses but it'll be 18 years before i'm of age. Mag-NZ, I intend to join on payday (Now-00: -$1,528.05 :crazy::crazy::crazy:)

[riffer]

Sigh...

There's no private BRONZ agenda. Some members of BRONZ are also members of a group of motorcycle-representing organisations, PERSONALLY INVITED by the Government to provide a motorcycling-based perspective on a committee that will decide how this money is to be spent.

Even if BRONZ did want to push something through, they're still only one voice on the MSL. The group is made of eight people representing the following groups; Ulysses Club of NZ Inc, Bikers Rights Organisation of NZ (BRONZ), Women’s International Motorcycle Association (WIMA), Motorcycling New Zealand, Scoot NZ, NZ Classic Scooter Club, Motor Industry Association, Ministry of Transport and the NZ Transport Agency. Seven of the group members are motorbike or scooter riders. Without the MSL there would have been NO extra money being spent on motorcycle safety at all.

Members on the establishment group include:


Peter McIntosh, President Ulysses Club of NZ Inc
Brent Hutchison, President of Wellington branch of Bikers Rights Organisation of NZ (BRONZ)
Yvonne Forrest, Representative of Women’s International Motorcycle Association (WIMA)
Paul Searancke, Commissioner: Recreation/Leisure of Motorcycling New Zealand
Jess Corbett from Scoot NZ and the NZ Classic Scooter Club
Clive Hellyar, Advisor from the Motor Industry Association
Ministry of Transport representative
Jim Furneaux, from NZ Transport Agency

BRONZ continues to protest the rise in ACC levy with the Minister. The Minister (and Government) continues to maintain their position.

You want to know what your most effective form of organised protest would be for this Government? Reduce each and every single-vehicle motorcycle accident to zero.

I realise that's hard. A number of single-vehicle motorcycle accidents can be put down to road conditions. But let's stick it to the man. Reduce our accidents hugely so the stats (which they love) show that NO MOTORCYCLISTS are causing accidents. Their position becomes untenable as soon as we can show that its not our fault. But while they continue to look at the figures that tell them that a fair proportion of the accidents are caused by us, and that the most expensive ones are the big bikes they will continue to want to keep the ACC levies high.

RIGHT NOW the MSL is happening. That may change in the future, but we have this opportunity to do something about motorcycle safety, and education, and while you well-meaning (but IMO misguided) people continue to fight about it due to an ideological dislike, others are adding their input AND THEIR IDEAS WILL BE HEARD. Some of them will become projects.

And god forbid, maybe we will save some lives because of it. I hope one of them will be mine. And hopefully yours too.

[Mom]

Mag-NZ, I intend to join on payday (Now-00: -$1,528.05 :crazy::crazy::crazy:)

What? Joining the dark side? :killingme

Cool, the more people that get actively involved with any group that is pro biker and cares about protecting and preserving the freedom that riding a motorcycle gives us the better!

[bogan]

I guess I must have read your previous post (below) wrong?

"and those who resent being forced to pay for it in the first place, can join mag eh cmon, you know ya want to yes, you, we need you!"

yup, I was largely taking the piss (hence the overuse of smileys) but it is always the case of the more the merrier ;)

And once we've nutted out various campaigns and whatnot, then get stuck into the ACTION, I reckon we'll be well merry :D

[Berries]

You want to know what your most effective form of organised protest would be for this Government? Reduce each and every single-vehicle motorcycle accident to zero.

I realise that's hard. A number of single-vehicle motorcycle accidents can be put down to road conditions. But let's stick it to the man. Reduce our accidents hugely so the stats (which they love) show that NO MOTORCYCLISTS are causing accidents. Their position becomes untenable as soon as we can show that its not our fault.
Do you really think cause comes in to it ? if we reduce the bike crashes caused by riders to zero, there will still be a significant number of crashes caused by other people where ACC have to pay substantial sums due to the fact the rider was on a bike, not in a car. They could potentially drop the MSL (ho ho ho, Tui) but riders would still pay more because they are more at risk of serious/expensive injury than a driver.

Anyway, we won’t reduce crash numbers dramatically. Bikes have two wheels and can fall over. The reality is that motorbikes will always have a higher crash rate than cars because they are inherently unstable (I am ignoring the rider factor here to keep my post short). That’s my view, and the reason why I don’t necessarily disagree with the fact that a bike rider should pay more ACC than a car driver, notwithstanding the fact I’d rather it was all properly risk based taking into account experience, history etc etc.

I am very much anti the MSL. I can understand and accept the fact that riders pay more than car drivers for ACC cover. I can’t accept that we have to then pay an additional sum to pay for whatever this group think is the magic cure-all to reduce the crash rate when we aren’t the beneficiaries of that reduction, ACC are. I don’t care about new riders. I don’t care about born agains. I don't care about drunks. I don’t care about any other riders. You do your thing and I’ll do mine. I care about me being able to continue to ride my bike and I don’t see why I can’t do that without paying extra money for all the fuckwits out there who keep adding to the stats. They should pay.

I do understand that if you want change you are better working from within than from the outside. But when it comes to the MSL group, the deal is done. All the people on the group have accepted the $30 additional levy. For that reason I commend the MAG-NZ stance, and won't be requesting a copy of the 'Ride Safe' DVD when it comes out, or wearing my free hi-viz vest. Call me cynical, but what does anyone else think will come out of it ?

[Reckless]

Here here Berries great Post!!!!!!!!!!!!




While I still agree with your viewpoint on 'the core beliefes of ACC being compromised' unfortunately we are unable to repeal the levy increase, and we are unable to have it made any lower until our injury costs/frequency comes down.
Ergo, the only recourse left is to work WITH ACC and the current government (note the use of current) proactively for the current term.

I disagree here, nothing personal, but there is another recourse and it's to keep fighting and stick to the founding principles of the ACC. Tell them to jamb their levy and not help them spend it. Join us at MAG-NZ to fight for bikers not to be treated differently! Not to pay a discriminative levy no-one else (on or off the road) pays!

This is the thin end of the wedge in my view, enough his enough!

Also must be a bit difficult to be anti the levy quote 'the core beliefes of ACC being compromised' and then help spend it on MSL, I personally don't quite get that? I say fight it!

From what I have observed Stoney, Les, Bronz and a lot of others, put a lot of time and effort into bikers and biking and I congratulate you all on that! I personally don't want to see different biking organizations become in opposition to each other, we do need to be united. But on the MSL we may have to agree to disagree. We look forward to joining you, or you joining us on future issues and/or protest Action/rides that may benefit all bikers in the future.

Never forget we do have POWER! if we are ORGANISED!
Bikers are voters!! A lot of electorates are won by only a few votes! And there are more bikers in these areas than the difference in those votes. IMO we do have the power to change things, from the outside.

[Berries]

PS to my last post. I would feel the same if the levy for cars was increased to pay for all the other idiots who are crashing. I pay my taxes. Perhaps if better training was offered/forced for all new road users and the Police actually targeted real crash promoting offences rather than this mad desire to sit at the side of the road and nick people for doing 10km/h over the limit instead of having a true visible presence we would see the road toll come down.

[Hawk]

I can understand opposing the MSL, but it aint going away. No matter how many toys you throw out of the cot. The best thing we can do is have a voice in the way it is utilised.

As the MSL team is consisted of mainly bike organisations I feel much better about where the funding will go.

or use the funding to go on holidays sorry fact find trips

[StoneY]

All the people on the group have accepted the $30 additional levy. For that reason I commend the MAG-NZ stance, and won't be requesting a copy of the 'Ride Safe' DVD when it comes out, or wearing my free hi-viz vest. Call me cynical, but what does anyone else think will come out of it ?

Well, MSL will NOT be buying anyone a free vizi vest that I can assure you, not without going through the GETS website with correctly formatted RFI-RFP-TENDER process

In fact not one cent has yet been allocated to ANYTHING and wont till 2011 at the earliest

The 30$ is NOT above the increase.
The increase in total was 140$ of which the 30$ MSL was negotiated AFTER the levy increase was set, (thanks Ulysses club!) effectively giving us SOME say how its spent and some control over the use of OUR levy
I STILL OPPOSE the increase and say so often.
If 9,500 riders showing up at Parliament couldn't stop it neither will whinging on Kiwibiker

So many opinion's on here and no one paying any attention to the facts, as they are clearly stated over and over again.

The MSL is the ONLY good thing we got out of the levy increase if you all bother to read the legislation behind it (as I have)

Et Tu BRUTE?
No....woke up one day and realized battle no 1 was lost, so continue the war as best I can.
Buried my hatchet, got on with the task at hand
Funny enough, less than 3 weeks ago a certain organization that's now bitching about the MSL told me they were looking forward to having QUOTE: DIRECT ACCESS TO IT

Have a great day everyone

[Berries]

As you can see by the part you quoted, it was a question as to what others think may come out of the MSL. You are on the group, be interested to see what you think. I personally cannot see anything of use that will reduce the chances of me becoming an ACC statistic, therefore I think it is an unfair and biased tax. I would be surprised if you or anyone else will convince me otherwise.


If 9,500 riders showing up at Parliament couldn't stop it neither will whinging on Kiwibiker.
Anyone who thinks it would is an idiot. It is an online forum. What is it for if not for complaining ?

[Pixie]

Consider this:

When the measures that the MSL pay for (probably gory TV ads) fails.I'm sure it will,this is NZ after all.
Who will get the blame?
The motorcycling groups who the govt. will say had control of the spend.

Then the ACC levy will go up again.


Heh heh heh suckerrrrs

[Pixie]

it's both, inseparable, and different issues. Inseperable in that the crash rate caused the levy hike, different issue in that it shouldn't have, as set out in the woodhouse principals. You may not believe they are required or useful, but that is where I find the difference in issues arises from.

My Dear brainwashed one.
The levy hike was caused by the desire of the current govt. to mold ACC into a clone of an insurance industry entity - so it can be easily sold off to the big companies.

[Pixie]

No absolutely not.
Not Katman, not StonY, No one. will ever convince me that the shonky research, the political maneuvering, the lies and bullshit ever had one thing to do with improving biker safety..
ALL about the softening up of ACC in readiness for sale.
Heard Les and BRONZ shout long and hard, StonY and the unions screamed.....
.
Unions screamed?
I think four of them turned up didn't they?(members not unions)

[Pixie]

I will continue to wear my BRONZ badge as a sign I am an aggrieved motorcyclist - but will be wearing it upside down

[NONONO]

Yep, it was not well done, but it WAS done, it did keep the protest against ACC changes in the media, briefly...

[NONONO]

"Here come the jets like a bat out of hell,....;)
Lets have some perspective here.
I'm a member of BRONZ.
Was at the time of Bikoi (and I do dispute BRONZ's claim to ownership of that).
Why then did I feel the need to get involved with MAG-NZ?
BRONZ simply became inactive as soon as Welly was over.
It appeared asleep before Welly, think it had 25 members, and after Bikoi it became sluggish again.
In the lead up to Welly, Action Groups were formed, Wellington Action Group and the Auckland Action Group. They where not BRONZ groups.
These groups, kept the ACTIONS alive.
BRONZ appeared to find the whole ACTION thing problematic, forever earring on the side of caution and process. The Auckland Action Group had no such qualms.
AAG, often with the tacit support of BRONZ but never with BRONZ's full backing, consistently kept the levy hikes and ACC changes in the public eye and achieved fantastic media coverage while maintaining the support of a hard core of bikers.
This hard core, has not been seen as such by BRONZ.
Inaction has continued to be the BRONZ byword and it's default setting until very recently.
AAG has since become the Auckland Local MAG-NZ, other Locals already exist.
MAG-NZ will always be an ACTION focused organization. That's why I'm in and that's what will keep me in.
If the existence of MAG-NZ is enough of a kick up the arse for BRONZ to get it moving (I can't say AGAIN), then that's an achievement all on it's own.
We do and will oppose the MSL and by default the MSL EG.
I personally believe that the groups signed up for this bean feast are simply being co opted by Nick and Judge...
When you sup with the devil, better bring a long spoon.

[Pixie]

Well, MSL will NOT be buying anyone a free vizi vest that I can assure you, not without going through the GETS website with correctly formatted RFI-RFP-TENDER process

In fact not one cent has yet been allocated to ANYTHING and wont till 2011 at the earliest

The 30$ is NOT above the increase.
The increase in total was 140$ of which the 30$ MSL was negotiated AFTER the levy increase was set, (thanks Ulysses club!) effectively giving us SOME say how its spent and some control over the use of OUR levy
I STILL OPPOSE the increase and say so often.
If 9,500 riders showing up at Parliament couldn't stop it neither will whinging on Kiwibiker

So many opinion's on here and no one paying any attention to the facts, as they are clearly stated over and over again.

The MSL is the ONLY good thing we got out of the levy increase if you all bother to read the legislation behind it (as I have)

Et Tu BRUTE?
No....woke up one day and realized battle no 1 was lost, so continue the war as best I can.
Buried my hatchet, got on with the task at hand


Typical Kiwi back down and give up tactic.

This is how to Fight:

History - Fred Hill


Many people will recall the extraordinary example set by Fred Hill in defying the compulsory helmet law throughout the nineteen seventies and eighties. Nowhere in the world has anyone made such exceptional sacrifices in the name of biker's freedoms.

A former army dispatch rider during WW2, Fred worked for many years as a mathematics teacher before leaving to enjoy what he doubtless expected would be a quiet retirement. Incensed by the compulsory helmet law, Fred rode everywhere in an old beret, collecting literally hundreds of tickets, which he stored in a large suitcase. Fred's refusal to pay the fines for helmet-less riding constituted 'Contempt of Court' for which he was given custodial sentences thirty one times.

Some of the sentences were very short, as little as 24 hours on one occasion when he was held in an unlocked police station cell and told by the desk sergeant to - 'bugger off when no-one's looking.' Other sentences were much longer however and the company which Fred found himself amongst in Her Majesty's hostels was not always the finest. Fred loathed prison life and once wrote a disturbing account of his experiences for Magnews. 'What is a man deprived of his name, his freedom of movement taken away, his every privacy invaded, every move spied upon, locked away in a filthy cell for 23 hours out of the 24 hours- and half of these miserable hours spent in darkness.'

A member of MAG, Fred's face was a familiar sight at MAG demonstrations all over the country. Fred always made speeches at the demonstrations, dressed in his arrow - patterned prison suit he would treat the crowd to theatrical helpings of his Yorkshire wit, always maintaining a characteristic good humour even when being booked. Though in every other way, a law-abiding citizen, Fred would encourage the crowds he addressed to follow his example, as the law would have to be repealed if enough people simply ignored it. In so doing he risked the more serious charge of incitement to break the law, though such a charge was never brought against him. Once in the dock of a magistrates court where a lady magistrate berated his lawlessness, Fred took the opportunity to remind her that if it hadn't been for members of her sex breaking the law some years ago, she wouldn't be sitting where she was.

With the passage of time, police in Fred's neighbourhood frequently turned a blind eye to his indiscretions. though when he went further afield he would invariably be stopped. In order to cover the necessary distances Fred replaced his Honda 50 with a 250, aboard which, on one occasion, he battled all the way to the Gower Peninsula in Wales and back, a distance of about 500 miles in one day despite appaling weather.

Demonstrations of support by MAG members were frequently staged outside prisons in which Fred was held and a commemoration of his efforts is made annually at the gates of Pentonville Prison on the anniversary of his death. Fred Hill was seventy four years old when in 1984 he died from a heart attack suffered whilst in custody in London's Pentonville Prison . Despite the tremendous news angle of one man against the state, the national media, with the exception of two columnists, Mathew Parris and Auberaugn Waugh, suspiciously blanked the tragedy.

Fred was imprisoned 31 times, his final sentence of 60 days, proving too much to take, was half completed. The prison governor had warned Fred that the harsh prison environment could be the death of him, to which Fred replied that, 'it didn't matter where a man died but how.' An enquiry into Fred's death resulted in a coroner's report which concluded that Fred's prison experience had not contributed toward his death.

Whether the helmet issue is important to you or not, we all owe it, not only to Fred but to ourselves, to sustain a ceaseless call for the reform of this outrageous legislation for, as Fred wrote - 'what is a man deprived..of his freedom ?' Motorcycling is about freedom. Fred understood that. We must never forget Fred's example lest we forget why we ride motorcycles.

Fred Hill was a member of MAG-UK

[Ronin]

"Here come the jets like a bat out of hell,....;)
Lets have some perspective here.
I'm a member of BRONZ.
Was at the time of Bikoi (and I do dispute BRONZ's claim to ownership of that).
Why then did I feel the need to get involved with MAG-NZ?
BRONZ simply became inactive as soon as Welly was over.
It appeared asleep before Welly, think it had 25 members, and after Bikoi it became sluggish again.
In the lead up to Welly, Action Groups were formed, Wellington Action Group and the Auckland Action Group. They where not BRONZ groups.
These groups, kept the ACTIONS alive.
BRONZ appeared to find the whole ACTION thing problematic, forever earring on the side of caution and process. The Auckland Action Group had no such qualms.
AAG, often with the tacit support of BRONZ but never with BRONZ's full backing, consistently kept the levy hikes and ACC changes in the public eye and achieved fantastic media coverage while maintaining the support of a hard core of bikers.
This hard core, has not been seen as such by BRONZ.
Inaction has continued to be the BRONZ byword and it's default setting until very recently.
AAG has since become the Auckland Local MAG-NZ, other Locals already exist.
MAG-NZ will always be an ACTION focused organization. That's why I'm in and that's what will keep me in.
If the existence of MAG-NZ is enough of a kick up the arse for BRONZ to get it moving (I can't say AGAIN), then that's an achievement all on it's own.
We do and will oppose the MSL and by default the MSL EG.
I personally believe that the groups signed up for this bean feast are simply being co opted by Nick and Judge...
When you sup with the devil, better bring a long spoon.

That there is the best post of the thread (sorry Mom)

[Eyegasm]

This is how to Fight:

So are they allowed to ride without helmets now?

Good story, but in the end it really did no good.

I guess you could say that one man can fight a fight, but it will take all of us to win the fight.

[Katman]

Typical Kiwi back down and give up tactic.

This is how to Fight:

History - Fred Hill


Many people will recall the extraordinary example set by Fred Hill in defying the compulsory helmet law throughout the nineteen seventies and eighties. Nowhere in the world has anyone made such exceptional sacrifices in the name of biker's freedoms.

A former army dispatch rider during WW2, Fred worked for many years as a mathematics teacher before leaving to enjoy what he doubtless expected would be a quiet retirement. Incensed by the compulsory helmet law, Fred rode everywhere in an old beret, collecting literally hundreds of tickets, which he stored in a large suitcase. Fred's refusal to pay the fines for helmet-less riding constituted 'Contempt of Court' for which he was given custodial sentences thirty one times.

Some of the sentences were very short, as little as 24 hours on one occasion when he was held in an unlocked police station cell and told by the desk sergeant to - 'bugger off when no-one's looking.' Other sentences were much longer however and the company which Fred found himself amongst in Her Majesty's hostels was not always the finest. Fred loathed prison life and once wrote a disturbing account of his experiences for Magnews. 'What is a man deprived of his name, his freedom of movement taken away, his every privacy invaded, every move spied upon, locked away in a filthy cell for 23 hours out of the 24 hours- and half of these miserable hours spent in darkness.'

A member of MAG, Fred's face was a familiar sight at MAG demonstrations all over the country. Fred always made speeches at the demonstrations, dressed in his arrow - patterned prison suit he would treat the crowd to theatrical helpings of his Yorkshire wit, always maintaining a characteristic good humour even when being booked. Though in every other way, a law-abiding citizen, Fred would encourage the crowds he addressed to follow his example, as the law would have to be repealed if enough people simply ignored it. In so doing he risked the more serious charge of incitement to break the law, though such a charge was never brought against him. Once in the dock of a magistrates court where a lady magistrate berated his lawlessness, Fred took the opportunity to remind her that if it hadn't been for members of her sex breaking the law some years ago, she wouldn't be sitting where she was.

With the passage of time, police in Fred's neighbourhood frequently turned a blind eye to his indiscretions. though when he went further afield he would invariably be stopped. In order to cover the necessary distances Fred replaced his Honda 50 with a 250, aboard which, on one occasion, he battled all the way to the Gower Peninsula in Wales and back, a distance of about 500 miles in one day despite appaling weather.

Demonstrations of support by MAG members were frequently staged outside prisons in which Fred was held and a commemoration of his efforts is made annually at the gates of Pentonville Prison on the anniversary of his death. Fred Hill was seventy four years old when in 1984 he died from a heart attack suffered whilst in custody in London's Pentonville Prison . Despite the tremendous news angle of one man against the state, the national media, with the exception of two columnists, Mathew Parris and Auberaugn Waugh, suspiciously blanked the tragedy.

Fred was imprisoned 31 times, his final sentence of 60 days, proving too much to take, was half completed. The prison governor had warned Fred that the harsh prison environment could be the death of him, to which Fred replied that, 'it didn't matter where a man died but how.' An enquiry into Fred's death resulted in a coroner's report which concluded that Fred's prison experience had not contributed toward his death.

Whether the helmet issue is important to you or not, we all owe it, not only to Fred but to ourselves, to sustain a ceaseless call for the reform of this outrageous legislation for, as Fred wrote - 'what is a man deprived..of his freedom ?' Motorcycling is about freedom. Fred understood that. We must never forget Fred's example lest we forget why we ride motorcycles.

Fred Hill was a member of MAG-UK

I think you just shot yourself in the foot.

[Pixie]

I think you just shot yourself in the foot.

Oh yeah the ATGATT thing.
I wonder how Fred lived to die in prison at the age of seventy four without ever wearing a helmet while riding.

No,both of my feet are fine.
Now take your's out of your mouth and check them for bullet holes.

[Katman]

Oh yeah the ATGATT thing.
I wonder how Fred lived to die in prison at the age of seventy four without ever wearing a helmet while riding.

No,both of my feet are fine.
Now take your's out of your mouth and check them for bullet holes.

The moral of your story is that Fred died having achieved nothing.

[chasio]

The moral of your story is that Fred died having achieved nothing.

Sticking to his convictions in the face of overwhelming pressure to abandon them is nothing? I strongly disagree with that.

I don't hold the same position that he did, personally, but I have great respect for his willingness to live and breathe what he felt was right.

[MSTRS]

The 30$ is NOT above the increase.
The increase in total was 140$ of which the 30$ MSL was negotiated AFTER the levy increase was set...

If you are going to quote figures, PLEASE GET THEM RIGHT, Nick.

The increase for 601cc+ was $175. It was later announced, as a sop to try to make the increase more palatable, $30 of this figure would be set aside to form the MSL.

[MSTRS]

Please don't let MAG-NZ become just another motorcycling organisation who refuses to accept the cold hard truth.

Can you show us anything that MAG-NZ, or it's members, have said that?

Au contraire. We know that the collective we crash/injure/kill ourselves too much. However, compared to the number who do not, it is clear that most riders are 'safe'.
MAG-NZ believes that it is abhorrent to have a levy placed on each and every one of us to fund safety initiatives for those that need it.
And personally, I am not convinced that the people on that committee are there for totally selfless reasons. Place a carcass in the open and the vultures will come...

[Eyegasm]

Place a carcass in the open and the vultures will come...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

And the vulture that was turned away from the carcass will oppose those that have been allowed to feed...

[MSTRS]

Bullshit. The stance MAG-NZ has taken in the MSL came first.

[Eyegasm]

Bullshit. The stance MAG-NZ has taken in the MSL came first.

Chicken or Egg, I really don't care. This is all it sounds like to me.

[Ronin]

And personally, I am not convinced that the people on that committee are there for totally selfless reasons. Place a carcass in the open and the vultures will come...

I still for the life of me have no idea why MNZ has anything to do with it.

[NONONO]

Chicken or Egg, I really don't care. This is all it sounds like to me.

Yep..sounds like you REALLY don't care. So instead of trolling round the place, why not do something else?

[dipshit]

The moral of your story is that Fred died having achieved nothing.

And thank Christ for that.

Imagine the ACC motorcycle costs today if he had gotten his way.

In some ways asking a bunch of motorcyclists what they want... is like asking a five-year-old what they want for dinner.

Of course they are going to ask for ice cream sprinkled in hundreds and thousands instead of meat and veg.

[MSTRS]

And thank Christ for that.

Imagine the ACC motorcycle costs today if he had gotten his way.



Actually, I wonder whether there would be much difference in costs.
More head injuries would add cost, but that would be offset by the huge increase in deaths, which are cheaper to ACC.
Cost is a spurious argument. Helmets save lives and that's why they are a legal requirement. They are a good thing, in my opinion. I would be very uncomfortable not wearing mine. I'm not sure where I stand on any insistence that all wear them, but I tend to that side of the argument.

[Eyegasm]

Yep..sounds like you REALLY don't care. So instead of trolling round the place, why not do something else?

Ok, I'll take that hit. I should have been clearer.

I do not care if their stance on the MSL came before or after they asked to be part of the MSL EG. It still sounds like they are complaining about being neglected from it.

As for trolling, If they can use KBs ACC mailing list to send me an email about their organisation, even when I did not sign up to the ACC mailing list (The Unsolicited Electronic Messages Act 2007 prohibits such action) then I feel that I should be able to voice my thoughts in an open forum.

[MSTRS]

Ok, I'll take that hit. I should have been clearer.

I do not care if their stance on the MSL came before or after they asked to be part of the MSL EG. It still sounds like they are complaining about being neglected from it.

As for trolling, If they can use KBs ACC mailing list to send me an email about their organisation, even when I did not sign up to the ACC mailing list (The Unsolicited Electronic Messages Act 2007 prohibits such action) then I feel that I should be able to voice my thoughts in an open forum.

We are all free to voice our opinions on here. MAG-NZ's official opinions are on their website. Some members will repeat them here, or give their own particular view which might be slightly different. Sometimes it can be hard to tell the official from the unofficial. The trick is to look for the emotion. The same goes for those that are part of BRONZ. We've also heard briefly from MNZ.
Basically, I think the various organisations all want to 'do their best' for fellow bikers, but don't always agree on what form that should take. If we did, there'd only be need for one rep body, right? MAG-NZ is against the MSL, but is fully supportive of it's aims. We just think that monies should come from general funding, not a special levy that only bikers pay. In the scheme of things, crash-wise, other motorists are responsible for approx half of our injuries/deaths, not to mention car-only crashes. Where's their special safety fund?

As for the KB mailing list - it's been said on other threads that no-one is obliged to be on 'the list'. So if you are, you either accept what is sent you, or you opt out. Bit like 'No Junk Mail' on your letterbox.

[Mom]

If they can use KBs ACC mailing list to send me an email about their organisation, even when I did not sign up to the ACC mailing list (The Unsolicited Electronic Messages Act 2007 prohibits such action)

I suggest you take this issue up with Spankme.

I chose just one post, but if you read around it you will see the responses from KB. I suggest you unsubscribe to KB email if you dont want to receive it.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/127851-MAG-NZ-launches-in-New-Zealand?p=1129847138#post1129847138

[Eyegasm]

I have no need to take it up with spankme, it was close to breaching the act, but did not do so.

I really need to clarify myself better in my posts.

And my apologies, I thought MAG had emailed KB to send out that email (via the ACC mailing list) to notify us. Thank you for the link.

[StoneY]

I use the :shifty: or :whistle: ones. Maybe you can answer the question stoney ignored, will bronz support (by encouraging it members to turn up) MAG anti-levy-increase rides or rallys?

Sorry mate I did not ignore the question just diid not realise you were directing it at me for an answer, and in all honesty it got lost in the clutter.

BRONZ Wellington has people in both camps, members of MAG and BRONZ as has Auckland branch.

Its a given our members can follow their own concience on such matters.

I for one support MAG-NZ morally, even where our personal viewpoints differ.

BRONZ see's MAG-NZ as a potential ally on many issue's.
Auckland have a formal stance on it, Wellington have been too busy getting the Federation up and running to take the time for a formal vote, but I truly believe our members will support any non disruptive legal actions carried out by MAG-NZ as will I myself.

However as for the issue at hand in this thread, (MSL) as I have stated before and will again:

I OPPOSED AND STILL OPOSE THE LEVY RAISES
For all the reasons we all did....

The ONLY good thing to come from it is the MSL fund that WE the BIKERS own....and we do OWN it by LAW!
No organisation has any ability to get their hands on these funds, its all done via a tender process with very stringent criteria to be met.
That too is set in LAW


Personall viewpoint:
(MY take on it , my PERSONAL opinion and NOT a formal BRONZ stance)

I would love to see MAG grow and gain strength, and become a strong organization. Its 2 months old?

I have many friends in MAG who worked tirelessly on BIKEOI and other projects as AAG, etc....but right now, in this thread, it looks like a bunch of people crying foul because thay cant have their own way and think that the long established organizations that have been round for years are hogging the piggy bank

I had been asked by a senior MAG rep 'how do we get MSL money Stoney'
YOU CANT
Thats all there is to it
BRONZ cant either, Ulysses cant, MNZ cant (as Paul S stated as well!)
There is NO CASH COW
Its 3.2 million a year....what sort of 'industry' is 3.2 million going to create? NONE!

Hope I get my point acrross this time coz KB brings out my dark side ...... the flame warrior in us all seems to get a steroid shot from these black pages with white text including my own........

Stay safe this stormy weekend folks coz I hate to say this (sigh) Katman...hes been right in so many ways from day one (arrrgh!)

Peace.

[Mom]

Stay safe this stormy weekend folks coz I hate to say this (sigh) Katman...hes been right in so many ways from day one (arrrgh!)
Peace.

Good post, not so sure I agree with the Katman comment though :dodge: :killingme (a joke for those that need that pointed out)

StoneY, there are going to be differences in both our organisations stances on somethings. This MSL obviously is one of them. We are not whinging about it, we are loudly stating we are against it. You guys have decided to work inside the system, we have decided that we wont. The end. Simple difference of phillosphy.

It is already crappy up here, no riding for me this weekend.

[Luckylegs]

The moral of your story is that Fred died having achieved nothing.

One hopes your one (kat)man campaign (to have us all behave better on the road) ends a little better than poor fred's :p

[phill-k]

Oh yeah the ATGATT thing.
I wonder how Fred lived to die in prison at the age of seventy four without ever wearing a helmet while riding.

No,both of my feet are fine.
Now take your's out of your mouth and check them for bullet holes.

I can tell you that had he arsed off his bike or been hit by a driver who didn't see him without the helmet his chances of survival would have very much been diminished.

[MSTRS]

I can tell you that had he arsed off his bike or been hit by a driver who didn't see him without the helmet his chances of survival would have very much been diminished.

Maybe. If he came off. Maybe. However, he believed it was his right to decide for him, and he had the courage of his conviction/s (sic) to put that into practice.

[StoneY]

Good post, not so sure I agree with the Katman comment though :dodge: :killingme (a joke for those that need that pointed out)


Thanks Anne
Looks like it killed BRONZ Wellingtons first 'hellovit' ride...sigh
Oh well.

Shiny side up everyone :cold:

[phill-k]

Maybe. If he came off. Maybe. However, he believed it was his right to decide for him, and he had the courage of his conviction/s (sic) to put that into practice.

I agree with you he did believe his cause was his right however the social consequences of not wearing a helmet is such that the cost to the wider community of preserving that right is to great.
If one was able to insure ones potential costs of choice then we would no longer need either mag or bronz, but the cost of that insurance would be prohibitively high. Makes the ACC levies quite palatable doesn't it.

[bogan]

Stay safe this stormy weekend folks coz I hate to say this (sigh) Katman...hes been right in so many ways from day one (arrrgh!)


good post dude, yeh may not be a weekend for riding, got the van out today and was a little worried about that falling over :laugh:

ah well, good time to apply some chain wax and give it plenty of time to dry on there properly :yes:

[caseye]

Sorry mate I did not ignore the question just diid not realise you were directing it at me for an answer, and in all honesty it got lost in the clutter.

BRONZ Wellington has people in both camps, members of MAG and BRONZ as has Auckland branch.

Its a given our members can follow their own concience on such matters.

I for one support MAG-NZ morally, even where our personal viewpoints differ.

BRONZ see's MAG-NZ as a potential ally on many issue's.
Auckland have a formal stance on it, Wellington have been too busy getting the Federation up and running to take the time for a formal vote, but I truly believe our members will support any non disruptive legal actions carried out by MAG-NZ as will I myself.

However as for the issue at hand in this thread, (MSL) as I have stated before and will again:

I OPPOSED AND STILL OPOSE THE LEVY RAISES
For all the reasons we all did....

The ONLY good thing to come from it is the MSL fund that WE the BIKERS own....and we do OWN it by LAW!
No organisation has any ability to get their hands on these funds, its all done via a tender process with very stringent criteria to be met.
That too is set in LAW


Personall viewpoint:
(MY take on it , my PERSONAL opinion and NOT a formal BRONZ stance)

I would love to see MAG grow and gain strength, and become a strong organization. Its 2 months old?

I have many friends in MAG who worked tirelessly on BIKEOI and other projects as AAG, etc....but right now, in this thread, it looks like a bunch of people crying foul because thay cant have their own way and think that the long established organizations that have been round for years are hogging the piggy bank

I had been asked by a senior MAG rep 'how do we get MSL money Stoney'
YOU CANT
Thats all there is to it
BRONZ cant either, Ulysses cant, MNZ cant (as Paul S stated as well!)
There is NO CASH COW
Its 3.2 million a year....what sort of 'industry' is 3.2 million going to create? NONE!

Hope I get my point acrross this time coz KB brings out my dark side ...... the flame warrior in us all seems to get a steroid shot from these black pages with white text including my own........

Stay safe this stormy weekend folks coz I hate to say this (sigh) Katman...hes been right in so many ways from day one (arrrgh!)

Peace.

Well said mate! Take care down there aye.

[riffer]

'tis just a bit of wind Caseye. I'm on the way home. Hope everyone in BRONZ, MAG, Ulysses and everywhere else, as well as all the others that don't give a shit either way have a happy and safe weekend and still get some biking in.

If you see an RF900R doing a bit of bobbin' and weavin' through SH58 in the next half hour, leave me some space if you're in a cage okay?

[dipshit]

'tis just a bit of wind Caseye. I'm on the way home. Hope everyone in BRONZ, MAG, Ulysses and everywhere else, as well as all the others that don't give a shit either way have a happy and safe weekend and still get some biking in.

If you see an RF900R doing a bit of bobbin' and weavin' through SH58 in the next half hour, leave me some space if you're in a cage okay?



. . :tugger:

[riffer]

. . :tugger:

Yes well I'll put you in with those who don't give a shit okay dipshit?

[Pixie]

Actually, I wonder whether there would be much difference in costs.
More head injuries would add cost, but that would be offset by the huge increase in deaths, which are cheaper to ACC.
Cost is a spurious argument. Helmets save lives and that's why they are a legal requirement. They are a good thing, in my opinion. I would be very uncomfortable not wearing mine. I'm not sure where I stand on any insistence that all wear them, but I tend to that side of the argument.

Plus the "perceived danger" effect.Bike Magazine dressed their journalists in pyjamas for a "ride naked" experiment.
Guess what? they rode veeery veeeery safely

[Pixie]

One hopes your one (kat)man campaign (to have us all behave better on the road) ends a little better than poor fred's :p

Fat chance.Katman won't go beyond web whining to push his cause.
Nowhere near the commitment of men like Fred Hill,who by the way did not achieve nothing - MAG-UK would not be as big as they are without people like Fred.

[kevie]

This thread has left me scratching my head ....... I would have hoped the biker groups would be talking and working together for OUR cause(s) but what i have read suggests differently..... or am I reading it all wrong?

I was at 3 biker protests (Marshal at 2) In Welly, and took it that BRONZ and the other groups were opposed to the changes in ACC and werent bowing down to the increases or Nationals schemes to sell ACC off . (remembers calls of "BULLSHIT" and "WE WILL BE BACK")

I can see the points that have been made in this thread (BRONZ/MSL) in their reasoning for the "change of heart" as some would call it, but I never saw anything prior to this thread that there had been this change in direction.
I dont think it may be a bad change, and can understand the reasoning, but as a biker, if you all want our ongoing support we all need to be in the loop both your members and non members, after all ..... if the non members are excluded then how are you ever going to draw them into financially supporting any of you? Altho ..... with the perception that ACC will be funding MSL, and MSL 'appears' to be BRONZ controlled.......... It leaves a question in the back of my mind "do you groups really need your paying members?" (Just my thoughts)

I think the various groups can work separately and together as long as they are communicating with each other and working for the betterment of biking in NZ so I will continue to support what is happening. I read the comments from all groups saying similar things but seemingly not accepting each other and this is concerning to me as a biker.

I think theres a real danger at the moment of BRONZ/MAG-NZ/MSL being seen as separate movements running similar but conflicting agendas and this could water down and maybe destroy the "force of numbers" that united we could have and could also confuse the majority of the biker community in who or what they believe and support. The danger of that is ....... they dont bother financially or time-wise supporting any of them.

[Reckless]

This thread has left me scratching my head ....... I would have hoped the biker groups would be talking and working together for OUR cause(s) but what i have read suggests differently..... or am I reading it all wrong?

I was at 3 biker protests (Marshal at 2) In Welly, and took it that BRONZ and the other groups were opposed to the changes in ACC and werent bowing down to the increases or Nationals schemes to sell ACC off . (remembers calls of "BULLSHIT" and "WE WILL BE BACK")

I can see the points that have been made in this thread (BRONZ/MSL) in their reasoning for the "change of heart" as some would call it, but I never saw anything prior to this thread that there had been this change in direction.
I dont think it may be a bad change, and can understand the reasoning, but as a biker, if you all want our ongoing support we all need to be in the loop both your members and non members, after all ..... if the non members are excluded then how are you ever going to draw them into financially supporting any of you? Altho ..... with the perception that ACC will be funding MSL, and MSL 'appears' to be BRONZ controlled.......... It leaves a question in the back of my mind "do you groups really need your paying members?" (Just my thoughts)

I think the various groups can work separately and together as long as they are communicating with each other and working for the betterment of biking in NZ so I will continue to support what is happening. I read the comments from all groups saying similar things but seemingly not accepting each other and this is concerning to me as a biker.

I think there's a real danger at the moment of BRONZ/MAG-NZ/MSL being seen as separate movements running similar but conflicting agendas and this could water down and maybe destroy the "force of numbers" that united we could have and could also confuse the majority of the biker community in who or what they believe and support. The danger of that is ....... they dont bother financially or time-wise supporting any of them.

Good post Kevie! And I understand what you are saying!

Firstly the whole point of the thread was to let Members and non members Know MAG_NZ's position on the "safety levy" matter. We believe its wrong and would have protested it strongly from day one for the reasons stated above. As you rightly pointed out it is necessary for members to feel included and non members to make a judgment on an organisations position, which is the reason for the official release.

Secondly we are hoping that all the biker groups will work together (and take it from me there has been dialog flowing between the parties).
But MAG_NZ (Motorcycle Action group) is an "action group" and some of the less aggressive biker organizations out there may not agree with us all the time!
We will not be sitting back waiting for things to happen, we will be bringing attention to the issues that are of concern to bikers. But it is up to bikers to get of their butts and show strength as well!!

There has been some debate in this thread and it will take everyone a little adjustment time to except or agree to disagree on certain points, that is natural.
If MAG had been around as The levy was introduced it may have been a whole different ball of wax now. I agree with you and also saw calls of BULLSHIT! But what happened in the end?? Which is why MAG_NZ is here now and why we are making a stand!

MAG_NZ is not here to take over/replace other groups or to be used by other groups for action. MAG UK has been very successful at bringing bikers rights to the for and we have a strong belief that if bikers are organised we don't have to take it up the arse every time someone wants to put cheesecutters dangerously close along roads ( against international guidelines) or put a "safety levy" on, no one else pays!

Your first step is to join up and give us credibility of numbers, we are not asking you to leave any other organisation just support the MAG causes as an individual, if you see fit!
The second is to get your butts on your bike seats and turn up for whatever issue is being dealt with at the time!

Its about time we really stood up for ourselves as a group! We hope MAG_NZ can provide a vehicle to facilitate that!

[kevie]

Yeh it was a good thread, I seldom wade through all the pages of a thread lol but did with this one, some interesting comments and views on it. Its good to see you guys being informative and until I read it on this thread was totally unaware of the change in stance of the Bronz and affiliated groups in signing up for the ACC funded group. While I think it could be a help it also could weaken the stance they had taken, altho I doubt National/ACC is really interested in our stand (or anyone elses for that matter) hence I will definately be DISinterested in them next election.

I have been involved in all the protest action down here when I have been able to get to them and have joined Mag as well. Its hard with the general "She'll be right" kiwi attitude getting people motivated but I see some good steps forward have been gained by all the parties involved.

Look forward to seeing the future progress with the combined efforts of MAG, BRONZE and the other affiliated groups.
Keep up the good work all groups :)

[caseye]

We need more like you! Read the whole thread, haven't slagged off any outfit, just seen that there is room for all and a need to get Motorcyclists on their Backsides on their seats and get out THERE! to show practical, physical support.Congratulations on Joining MAG-NZ and still being a part of BRONZ and any other organisation you may be with .
I am a dual member and happy to stay that way, then I can HELP both parties when and as required.

[Waxxa]

The bikoi acheived a reduction of a ACC levy increase from $500 (approx.) to one of $175 (approx.). We did acheive something!

Out of this $175, my understanding is that $30 of this is going to various saftey initiatives in the form of this MSL. Am I correct?

There has been much discussion on this forum about ACC levy increases and though a lot of don't agree with it (myself included) there is also discussion that if there is to be an increase then some of that should be earmarked for safety initiatives. Is this not what the MSL is trying to acheive?

Now Restless made a vary valid comment, MAG-NZ were not at the 'table' when this initiative was implemented. MAG-NZ was formed too late and missed the boat. (On this one at least!) And though individuals have their thoughts on this matter, let us see how much is raised, how it is administered, audited and on what safety initatives it goes towards first, before the various Biker bodies and individuals start going toe-to-toe!

Because at the time of the levy increase there was going to be NO setting aside of funds at all for us bikers (training and safety). It was going to be an increase only in our eyes.

Time for calm I think on this MSL. Lets keep focused on not losing our ACC!

[MSTRS]

MAG-NZ may well have been too late to be included on the MSL EG. However, we maintain that the MSL is inequitable, due to similar not being imposed on other classes of driver. Notwithstanding that the $30 was retrospectively applied out of the $174 extra levy. My personal belief is that this was a sop by Nick the Prick to try and avoid a repeat protest at the new levy level. Worked too, didn't it?

[fossil]

A VMAC member in Aussie has said that he never thought another government anywhere would be dumb enough to empower motorcyclists in legislation. Now we just need to stop trying to turn back time and make it work to our advantage.

[Berries]

The bikoi acheived a reduction of a ACC levy increase from $500 (approx.) to one of $175 (approx.). We did acheive something!
It wasn't just the bikoi. There were a lot of submissions put in that also had an influence, probably more IMHO.

To be honest, I think the increase was always going to be what it turned out to be. They just put a higher figure out there to get the reaction, then 'lowered' it to ease the pain so everyone accepted it. And then threw the MSL in to the mix as well to make everybody grateful.

[DMNTD]

Bit of a bugger to see that the rego's are going up again,albeit not by much.

[riffer]

Bit of a bugger to see that the rego's are going up again,albeit not by much.


MAG-NZ may well have been too late to be included on the MSL EG. However, we maintain that the MSL is inequitable, due to similar not being imposed on other classes of driver. Notwithstanding that the $30 was retrospectively applied out of the $174 extra levy. My personal belief is that this was a sop by Nick the Prick to try and avoid a repeat protest at the new levy level. Worked too, didn't it?


Probably about 2.5%. Not much point arguing about the inequality of that, considering everyone's affected.

And argue all you like about the MSL, I'd rather have it that have ALL my increase going to ACC's coffers. At least motorcyclists will get some say about safety measures. The alternative, if we ditch the MSL, is we have NO SAY whatsoever. How is that progress?

[Berries]

The alternative, if we ditch the MSL, is we have NO SAY whatsoever. How is that progress?
All depends on what comes out if it I guess. I asked earlier in this thread if anyone had any ideas on what it may be spent on but nobody put up any suggestions.

Call me cynical, but apart from improved training for new riders I can't see anything. While improved training is a must, I don't see why existing riders should pay for it. What else is there ? I can't imagine anything that would reduce the chances of me becoming an ACC claimant, therefore I agree with what MSTRS said. The levy was a sop to calm the protesting bikers down. Not only did it work, it would appear to have driven a wedge through the riding community. Two birds with one stone.

[Pixie]

All depends on what comes out if it I guess. I asked earlier in this thread if anyone had any ideas on what it may be spent on but nobody put up any suggestions.

Call me cynical, but apart from improved training for new riders I can't see anything. While improved training is a must, I don't see why existing riders should pay for it. What else is there ? I can't imagine anything that would reduce the chances of me becoming an ACC claimant, therefore I agree with what MSTRS said. The levy was a sop to calm the protesting bikers down. Not only did it work, it would appear to have driven a wedge through the riding community. Two birds with one stone.

In Victoria,which the NZTA laud as pure motoring heaven:puke:,much of the motorcycle levy is spent making the roads safe for motorcyclists by upgrading construction choices that shouldn't have been considered in the first place.
I predict that we won't even see that much of an effect when the money is pissed away.

[kevie]

All depends on what comes out if it I guess.
Call me cynical, but apart from improved training for new riders I can't see anything. While improved training is a must, I don't see why existing riders should pay for it. What else is there ? I can't imagine anything that would reduce the chances of me becoming an ACC claimant, therefore I agree with what MSTRS said. The levy was a sop to calm the protesting bikers down. Not only did it work, it would appear to have driven a wedge through the riding community. Two birds with one stone.

Yeh guess while im open minded Im also feeling like the Biker community has be "sold out" by the MSL to ACC and our friend Nick...... Its early days for the MSL but they (MSL) are going to have to pull some dam good strings (once they have the details set of how the MSL is going to work) to convince the 'biker comunity' that we havent been shafted yet again (this time by those we looked up to to lead us) But as some have said, the MSL could be a good thing for bikers, But for someone like me that has done 2 road safety sessions and have been riding for 41 years and the only 2 (minor injury) accidents I have had weren't caused by me but an idiot in a cage I can't see the benefits for most of the biker comunity other than the possibility my $30 will improve/lower the overall rate of (injury) accidents and the levies come down, but traditionally I doubt ACC would reduce any levy and in fact just keep the 'profits'.

The ball is in your court now MSL/BRONZ and associated groups, its up to you to convince us you havent sold us out. Im the interum... my support goes to MAG-NZ who .... also.... has the task of convincing the biker comunity they also are worth supporting.

Cetrainly watching the progress from all parties.

[StoneY]

The MSL is from the 140$ increase. It was not added above

Anyone trying to convince you all it was added ABOVE the increase is wrong, plain and simple, and to continue saying so shows your individual and collective ignorance on the matter

[MSTRS]

The MSL is from the 140$ increase. It was not added above

Anyone trying to convince you all it was added ABOVE the increase is wrong, plain and simple, and to continue saying so shows your individual and collective ignorance on the matter

You obviously missed the fact that the increase is $174 for +601cc bikes, and about $75 for -601cc. I already appraised you of that here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/128602-MAG-NZ-opposes-the-Motorcycle-Safety-Levy?p=1129862045#post1129862045). Can you point to any literature that disputes this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/114641-New-ACC-motorcycle-levies-confirmed?p=1129561856#post1129561856)?

[Reckless]

Call me cynical, but apart from improved training for new riders I can't see anything. While improved training is a must, I don't see why existing riders should pay for it. What else is there ? I can't imagine anything that would reduce the chances of me becoming an ACC claimant, therefore I agree with what MSTRS said. The levy was a sop to calm the protesting bikers down. Not only did it work, it would appear to have driven a wedge through the riding community. Two birds with one stone.


In Victoria,which the NZTA laud as pure motoring heaven:puke:,much of the motorcycle levy is spent making the roads safe for motorcyclists by upgrading construction choices that shouldn't have been considered in the first place.
I predict that we won't even see that much of an effect when the money is pissed away.

Aside from the fact they will possibly spend 50% of it just administering the allocation of it ???

I have read many Comments like "personally I don't agree with it" said in these posts. Maybe if we didn't agree, we should have told them to jam it and fought it tooth and nail! MAG_NZ's position is quite Clear on this matter! Others made other judgments at the time and it has been quite correctly pointed out that MAG was not around at the time. But this does not mean we have to agree with something we think is inherently wrong. Decisions where made at the time we don't agree with but that doesn't mean we don't think those people involved where not trying to do their best for bikers and motorcycling. And it also doesn't mean we have to agree to it, or live with it now.
We do not believe we should be victimised and levied. Its against the whole principle of ACC its bloody wrong and will never ever be right. We believe MAG or Bronze or Ulysses should be able to go to an individual ACC branch in their area ( or even do it together) and apply for rider training funding on a case on case basis under the scenario that the training they do is going to save ACC money in claims anyway. Self funding as such! Shit how many times has this been done in the ACC arena.

The way I see it we are personally paying for training that is going to save them money in claims as well! We've been stabbed with a double edged sword and who's personally paying for it. We bloody are! When no else pays a "safety levy" for their own "safety" to save ACC money in claims???
Take Skiers! High income, high risk etc etc where is their "safety" levy when they buy a ticket to go up the mountain????

Look we could debate semantics for days but what is done is done, lets agree to disagree and get on with our own projects etc

'Come to the MAG_NZ launch on Sunday or to Taupo in November for the get together/ fundraiser/ ideas/ brainstorming / team building / socialising weekend!
See what we are all about! We welcome the input all of you guys and gals!!

[StoneY]

Aside from the fact they will possibly spend 50% of it just administering the allocation of it ???


Nope
ACC pay all administration costs.
Not one red cent is alloctaed to anything except approved projects.

All admin and setup/secretarial costs are paid by ACC's operations budget

And as for fighting to the end be my guest...if the 9000+ who chanted Bullshit on Parliaments lawn didnt stop the hike in levy's neither will any more smaller protests...and I cant see 9000+ motorcyclists gathering again (this year anyway)

Face it, we played our hand, the levy still went up but by a LOT less than was originally proposed, and of the 140 it went up by 30 of it is OURS to spend......

I still oppose the levy' and believe we should be treated the same as any other road user, but as long as National hold the power we wont see any shift in attitude

The next round in THIS fight, starts next year when the poll booths open and you get a chance to change the government

[MSTRS]

....and of the 140 it went up by 30 of it ....

:oi-grr: In the immortal words of Hitcher...Gah! Thud!

You have obviously been swiped by the Nick brush, quoting figures that are wrong, then repeating despite being corrected. We all know what the right amount is/was. You lose all credibility trying to convince us it is otherwise.

[Reckless]

Nope
ACC pay all administration costs.
Not one red cent is alloctaed to anything except approved projects.

All admin and setup/secretarial costs are paid by ACC's operations budget

And as for fighting to the end be my guest...if the 9000+ who chanted Bullshit on Parliaments lawn didnt stop the hike in levy's neither will any more smaller protests...and I cant see 9000+ motorcyclists gathering again (this year anyway)

Face it, we played our hand, the levy still went up but by a LOT less than was originally proposed, and of the 140 it went up by 30 of it is OURS to spend......

I still oppose the levy' and believe we should be treated the same as any other road user, but as long as National hold the power we wont see any shift in attitude

The next round in THIS fight, starts next year when the poll booths open and you get a chance to change the government

Good to hear that Stoney thanks for putting us straight on the Admin side of the situation!

I still wonder how many of the 9000 would have taken your or MAGs stand on the issue?
But that we will never know so its a wasted argument that is unnecessary and divisive at this time.
Hopefully enough bikers will get off their butts and join up!

The next Round!
We are hoping bikers will get off their butts and show our organisations more solidarity by getting out there and supporting the protests against this sort of bullying, cheesecutter and other issues that impact on our survival! For without actual member numbers we are all lost to a certain degree!

Only the future will tell, we at MAG_NZ are attempting to raise the profile of the issues higher with and different approach, more action, and hopefully bikers will be encouraged to follow??
Who know's?? we can but try!

Riders Are Voters (to quote MAG_UK).

[kevie]

Yeh we could all continue to toss our views around while in a way actually agreeing what National/ACC are doing is unfair and in the interum become more fragmented.

As I said earlier, Its all happened and each party feels their way is the best, nows the time for us all to watch the outcomes for the next few months and see if the seeming gamble by MSL is going to pay off for us.

And as Stoney said ..... theres an election comming up and theres the chance to really have your say and even now start TELLING your MP that National has fucked up and doesn't have your vote, and hopefully we change government in the next round, wether that helps or not is to be seen in the next government term.

As for me, im going to watch the biker groups with an open mind, and come election time ..... plan to vote for a minor party, have had enough of both Labour and National.

But the priority for the bikers success is to stay united, wether we side with MAG or BRONZ or totally agree with MSL, we are all working to the same goal just in different ways .... thats to get us bikers a fair deal.

[caseye]

As always and as usual there are the knockers.How many times does the spokesman for BRONZ NZ have to say that he "supports MAG-NZ's formation and their fundaental right to exist?
how many times do those of us who have decided to continue our action Campaign agaisnt Nick Smiths proposeed ACC changes have to say that any other existing or about o be formed Motorcycle group have a perfect right to fight the levy increases as they see fit.
Before it becomes clear to any and all motorcyclists that they can join both/all motorcyclist groups and still have a concerted say.
In the first week of October 2010 there is a meeting being held, it is for all motorcycle groups, current and perhaps still to be formed and it is to establish a basic set of rules that all grou-s can abide by in their direct deaings with the current NZ Govt.

For pitys sake when those here who are kicking hardest against a new and vibrant group realise that that goup is not anti any other, simply coming from a different perspective and attracting members at a rate unheard of in the scheme of things, because their advocacy isn't too radical but action based and WILL be followed up by personal action and group actions to ensurethat their concerns are herard and addressed.

[kevie]

As always and as usual there are the knockers.How many times does the spokesman for BRONZ NZ have to say that he "supports MAG-NZ's formation and their fundaental right to exist?
how many times do those of us who have decided to continue our action Campaign agaisnt Nick Smiths proposeed ACC changes have to say that any other existing or about o be formed Motorcycle group have a perfect right to fight the levy increases as they see fit.
Before it becomes clear to any and all motorcyclists that they can join both/all motorcyclist groups and still have a concerted say.
.


WELL SAID :) While everyone has a view and opinion lets keep open minded and give all the groups a chance to settle and see how they go.

ooohhh and another coalburner rider eh lol I have modified mine so gone to burning Carbonettes instead now (dam I must be older than my bike too to remember Carbonettes):bleh:

[Ronin]

The next round in THIS fight, starts next year when the poll booths open and you get a chance to change the government

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!

Yeah good one... Oh wait. Your not joking?

[StoneY]

:oi-grr: In the immortal words of Hitcher...Gah! Thud!

You have obviously been swiped by the Nick brush, quoting figures that are wrong, then repeating despite being corrected. .

Actually MSTRS I have been researching this issue dilligently since I read the post your link pointed to
I was refraining from making any reply to that untill I had checked all FORMAL sources ( I am trying hard to ensure solid facts this time so a post on KB is hardly the source for verifying actual facts is it?)

I have checked a number of sources at both ACC and then compared the costs in the real world to the situation and you know, I was WRONG!

I am buggered if I can find where I got 140 from now but originally I was assured that it was a total of 140 in increase for over 601cc bikes so I have stuck with that figure as it was what I had.

With due research it seems that is an incorrect figure and you may well be right it appears the full increase for 601cc+ bikes is in fact $174.00, which is inclusive of the MSL fund levy
This is obvious when comparing the itemised registration breakdown from 2009, to one from 2010 for an RF900

I was mistaken and will ensure my figures are more accurate heading forward

There you go mate, I admit I was mistaken, you can even use the word WRONG I dont care

But if you think I am going to treat your pointing me at another post on KB as 'evidence' well fellah....think again
After all avenues o to find these facts have been exhausted I am simply awaiting full copies of all MSL press releases, and a transcript of what Nick Smith announced on Dec 10th before I challenge this any further.

Bottom line, regardless of the final ammount the levy increase came to, we get control of a part of the money, for OUR causes

Its highly unlikely I will have any future input with MSL after the steering committee winds up this month on the 29th

IF thats the case I will still hold my head high knowing that despite the fact the levy still went up, and despite the fact some people still think its possible to continue to resist a fait accompli by the sitting government, I did my share to fight the unfair levy raise.

I worked harder than ANYONE to arrange the massive protest last year, sacrficed far more than I could afford to in doing so as well
And since, I have actively worked to ensure we get value for our money from ACC

BRONZ Wellington are initiating a road safety partnership with various regional and national official organizations, (totally seperate from the MSL) and we helped revamp the Ride Forever website earlier this year


I STILL OPPOSE being treated different from other road users, can I change that? No ..... not with this government in power

Can I do any more??
Yes ..... and intend to, and if you also vote against the sitting government next year maybe...just maybe...we might end up with a Motorcyclist for PM...who knows maybe we will get one as ACC minister even
Theres a thought...........

[MSTRS]

Actually MSTRS I have been researching this issue dilligently since I read the post your link pointed to
I was refraining from making any reply to that untill I had checked all FORMAL sources ( I am trying hard to ensure solid facts this time so a post on KB is hardly the source for verifying actual facts is it?)
...
I was mistaken and will ensure my figures are more accurate heading forward

But if you think I am going to treat your pointing me at another post on KB as 'evidence' well fellah....think again
....

I, too, would not rely on a KB post for veracity. I do have a reasonable memory tho, and ensured that I found the appropriate link to the levy announcement, before I called you on the $140 first time round. :yes:
Owning your mistake (even if eventually) is a good thing.

[Flip]

Who the hell is MAG anyway?

Is it some bunch of do gooders who have just turned up on the scene and are trying to make some kind of political statement?

Thanks but not thanks guys, if I want some one to express my opinion on the goverment all I have to do is fart (or vote).

[GOONR]

Who the hell is MAG anyway?

Is it some bunch of do gooders who have just turned up on the scene and are trying to make some kind of political statement?

Thanks but not thanks guys, if I want some one to express my opinion on the goverment all I have to do is fart (or vote).

The answers to your questions, and more, are on the website. (http://mag-nz.org)

Enjoy.

[kevie]

I have checked a number of sources at both ACC and then compared the costs in the real world to the situation and you know, I was WRONG!
but originally I was assured that it was a total of 140 in increase for over 601cc bikes .

With due research it seems that is an incorrect figure and you may well be right it appears the full increase for 601cc+ bikes is in fact $174.00, which is inclusive of the MSL fund levy
..

AAAHHHHHH were you realllly wrong tho LOL I took the original natter to be $140 then add the $30 for the Training levy ..... so thats $170 so really ... I think the parties seem to agree and saying the same thing from different perspectives :)

[MSTRS]

AAAHHHHHH were you realllly wrong tho LOL I took the original natter to be $140 then add the $30 for the Training levy ..... so thats $170 so really ... I think the parties seem to agree and saying the same thing from different perspectives :)

Nope.
It might be a matter of pedantary (or semantics) but the levy rise was announced at $174 for >601cc. The MSL of $30 was announced later, as an inclusive of that $174.
Like I've said several times already...it was a sop to shut up bikers who still weren't impressed with the rise.

[AD345]

Inneresting thread, two schools of thought.

Fight from within

Fight from without

And us Joe Bloggs can have a bob each way by joining both orgnisations - marvellous.

Personally I support the stance taken by MAG-NZ on this matter and it does this heart wonders to see a principled stand taken and articulated without ultimatums to those who disagree, a rare sight indeed.

I had a big long post all ready to go but realised I've pretty much said all I wanted to say on ACC in the relevant forums of this site and will leave it there.


So MAG -NZ you have my support


It'll take a bikini wash to get my money but*







*NOT a personal challenge to Maha I hasten to add (shudder)

[Maha]

Inneresting thread, two schools of thought.

Fight from within

Fight from without

And us Joe Bloggs can have a bob each way by joining both orgnisations - marvellous.

Personally I support the stance taken by MAG-NZ on this matter and it does this heart wonders to see a principled stand taken and articulated without ultimatums to those who disagree, a rare sight indeed.

I had a big long post all ready to go but realised I've pretty much said all I wanted to say on ACC in the relevant forums of this site and will leave it there.


So MAG -NZ you have my support


It'll take a bikini wash to get my money but*







*NOT a personal challenge to Maha I hasten to add (shudder)

Maha in a Mankini?.... thousands would donated to NOT see that...:wings:
mmmmmmmmm I have an idea.:rockon:

[MadDuck]

It'll take a bikini wash to get my money but*

Will make sure I have mine on Sunday :facepalm:

[Flip]

The answers to your questions, and more, are on the website. (http://mag-nz.org)

Enjoy.

Yep, when I want some one to talk to my MP about my problems I will do it myself thanks.

[Mom]

I will do it myself thanks.

That is fantastic and all we ask really. Take personal action for/against that which you dont agree with. Glad to see someone that understands how important it is to make a stand.

[Reckless]

it does this heart wonders to see a principled stand taken and articulated without ultimatums to those who disagree, a rare sight indeed

Personal statement here!

Thank-you! I have a passionate belief that the last thing Bikers and Motorcycling needs at this time is hidden agendas, personality clashes and one up-manship battles. Motorcycling needs (and has needed for a very long time) something to unite them! The oil on the different cogs!

My belief now is that the only way we can fail is if bikers themselves don't get off there arses to help themselves on a long term basis!

The only way we have real power is if we are united. We shall see on Sunday?

[MSTRS]

Yep, when I want some one to talk to my MP about my problems I will do it myself thanks.

Imagine a whole country prepared to do that....

[Fatt Max]

Imagine a whole country prepared to do that....

A country full of bikers maybe.....

[Mom]

A country full of bikers maybe.....

I have a dream...

[StoneY]

Imagine a whole country prepared to do that....

Would be nice wouldnt it.............
Apathy. The true enemy of the NZ citizen

[Katman]

I worked harder than ANYONE to arrange the massive protest last year,


Seriously man, you need to take stock of your ego.

[Maha]

Seriously man, you need to take stock of your ego.

The Bikeoi last year (though massive in numbers and impressive to say the least) was not entirely successfull, and I say this because the outcome was predicted before the event even took place. There was a 2nd attempt I believe?
So many people worked long hours on the Bikeoi, everyone involved (without exception) knows that it happened because of the input of more than just one person.

[caseye]

It happened and without all that everyone put in,it would Not have.
That is enough isn't it, the rest is simply NIT PICKING.
Ego's need to take a back seat if anything positive is to come of the Bikoi and or any subsequent action taken by any other organisation.
I suggest that if you can't say somethign positive, DON'T say anything at all.
We need cohesive, supported actions and for everyone and all groups interested in getting things to happen, To Pull Together.
I'm tired of the points scoring.
From now on it doesn't matter who you are, if all you want is to stroke your own dick, go ahead I really don't give a shit anyomre.
i've got things to do that may make a difference and I along with my freinds are going to try to make things happen.
When I see others doing the same I'll happily acknowledge them and attempt to work with them, otherwise forget it.

"Do It"

[Mom]

"Do It"

I am polishing my launch day speech...

DO IT! indeed. Well said that man!

[AD345]

Would be nice wouldnt it.............
Apathy. The true enemy of the NZ citizen


Meh</10char>




:devil2: