Insurance woes...

[2wheelsofjustice]

Hi all,

Bit of read coming up guys - sorry bout that - but hopefully some folks out there can make it through it and help! :)

Last Friday I had the thrill of being hit by a car that failed to see me/give way at a roundabout... I came out ok... rolled and flipped about the ground in the traditional way... walked away with a knocked knee and a sprained butt... (I didn't know you could even sprain a butt!)..

My Ducati is a different story... the left pipe where the car hit is all dented in and the right side looks like someone took an angle grinder to it. The lady who hit me was actually really nice, admitted fault and insurance looked to be moving smoothly... but things are getting a little weird now.

For some reason I started off the process by claiming through my own insurance company (even though she crashed into me). Because she admitted fault, my insurance company said they will waive my usual excess. The assessors have been and decided a repair is in order, except that they don't want to pay for the carbon exhausts that I had on the bike (as this would push the cost of repairs into a write-off) and I'd have to pay up the difference if I wanted carbon exhausts replaced. So I'm in a bit of a predicament - I don't want them to write it off if it can be fixed (particularly because they said the payout would be less than what I bought it for), but I don't want it fixed to worse than how it was.

What I am considering doing is telling my insurance company to stop what they're doing and contacting the nice lady's insurance company. I'd provide her with the list of parts I need and repair quotes (from the bike store) including getting it certified straight etc etc, as well as an amount of $$ for loss of use of the bike for the last week. All amounts I need to get back where I was. I have spoken to her and she has third party property damage cover (up to $1m!!) so would then just pass this on to her insurance co. They pay out to get it fixed. End of story?

Does anyone out there see any flaws with option 2? Do I have to deal with my own insurance company and their crazy payout limits? Or can I just get quotes for what I need and approach her/her insurance company directly?

Thanks in advance guys!

[SVboy]

Usually insurance companies have a 'knock for knock' policy-so your insurance company pays for your damage, even though she is at fault. I think if you went down option B, you would have a hard time convincing her company to pay you. If you were not insured, you would probably have more joy[ironically!] with her company, but would possibly have to take them to small claims to get a settlement. I can see the merits in your idea and will watch with interest.

[jim.cox]

Stand your ground

You were not at fault

Your bike should be returned to the state it was in prior to accident

How the insurance company does that is it's problem, not yours

Do not accept their "settlement"

[imdying]

So I'm in a bit of a predicament - I don't want them to write it off if it can be fixed (particularly because they said the payout would be less than what I bought it for), but I don't want it fixed to worse than how it was.I would tell her that they're not covering the mufflers, and that she has to pay for them. If she says no, then pay for them yourself and take her to the disputes tribunal for that amount.

[MSTRS]

Stand your ground

You were not at fault

Your bike should be returned to the state it was in prior to accident

How the insurance company does that is it's problem, not yours

Do not accept their "settlement"

This man has it.
Your insurer's stance is wrong.
You are entitled to have your vehicle returned to pre-crash condition. Or written off for it's market value pre-crash (or agreed value, if you have that cover option)

[Waxxa]

i dont think insurance companies will pay out for items that are after-market like your carbon exhausts. If it was still the original exhaust, yes. Have you at least priced up a standard exhaust for the repair? (you need one for legal purposes).

[willytheekid]

Stand your ground and go through her insurance company!
Your insurance company should NOT be used as it was not your fault or place to lodge a claim due to her being at fault.(theyWILL find a way of charging you!)
NEVER TRUST INSURANCE COMPANYS!!! ..what they say and what they do is usually completely different, and usually in their! favour not yours.
Get everything in writing and as previously mentioned, if they give you the run around...go to small claims court!
...sorry for your loss by the way :pinch:

[Smiff-ta]

Stand your ground and go through her insurance company!
Your insurance company should NOT be used as it was not your fault or place to lodge a claim due to her being at fault.(theyWILL find a way of charging you!)
NEVER TRUST INSURANCE COMPANYS!!! ..what they say and what they do is usually completely different, and usually in their! favour not yours.
Get everything in writing and as previously mentioned, if they give you the run around...go to small claims court!
...sorry for your loss by the way :pinch:

Thats not how insurance works. You are insured. Your insurance sorts your bike, then pursues the person at fault. If that person is insured the insurance companies sort it out, if not your insurance company will take action to re-coup costs incured.

The BIG question is, are you carbon tail cans noted as a modification on your insurance? If they are stand your ground. If not, good luck.

Who are you insured with??

Star have got to be the best to deal with, I HIGHLY recommend them to anyone willing to listen.

[wayne708]

i dont think insurance companies will pay out for items that are after-market like your carbon exhausts. If it was still the original exhaust, yes. Have you at least priced up a standard exhaust for the repair? (you need one for legal purposes).

This is pretty much how I would see it. If your bike came standard with carbon exhausts, new ,from the factory, then the insurance company would be required to cover it.

If they were fitted later and not disclosed to insurance company when taking out a policy then they may have an out.

What is the differnce in price beteen standard and carbon? can you negotiate with the person who hit you to top up the difference.

Pain I know but good luck.

[cowboyz]

just say No! Insurance companies are rogues! just keep saying no till they come up with an appropriate solution (the only one being your bike fully repaired).

[MSTRS]

If they were fitted later and not disclosed to insurance company when taking out a policy then they may have an out.


I would argue that the rider, who is not at fault, is not using his policy, therefore whatever cost to fix is borne by the guilty party, or their insurer.
Therefore, stuff like undeclared, expensive aftermarket stuff is not an out for the insurer.

[hayd3n]

you should be dealing with their insurance company

[cowboyz]

I would argue that the rider, who is not at fault, is not using his policy, therefore whatever cost to fix is borne by the guilty party, or their insurer.
Therefore, stuff like undeclared, expensive aftermarket stuff is not an out for the insurer.

have to agree. there is no doubt in my head that the guilty party should pay for it and it should be completely repaired. The writeoff thing is a real pain in the arse!.. I reckon it should be if you are not guilty then you should have the option of full repair *no matter the cost*. The insurance company will keep trying to force a write off.. because it saves them money. They shouldnt be able to force you to do anything you dont wanna do.

[p.dath]

Usually when you are fully insured you assign some of your rights to your insurance company. You effectively appoint them to represent you.

So you may find you don't have the right to sue seperately. You have already appointed someone to represent you in your claim.

And you're agreement probably doesn't cover after market changes.


I could be completely wrong, but I think the case might be something like this.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Stand your ground

You were not at fault

Your bike should be returned to the state it was in prior to accident

How the insurance company does that is it's problem, not yours

Do not accept their "settlement"

concur. 10 characters.

remember it is their JOB to pay you as little as possible. Your role in the play is to extract as much as possible given the premiums you've paid over the years.

have fun with it.

[Usarka]

Most policies ive seen say you have to advise company of any mods.

Fucking mods.

[dogsnbikes]

As per pre accident condition......thats what all my insurances are,I have even gone as far as listing and photographing mods to the bikes so I know there is no doult that if needed my bike/s will be repaired to the condition before a crash....it save's alot of hassels and when a lady backed overtop of the triumph the mods were replaced as so not replaced with stock items,she was insured and the claim was approved in 30 minutes :woohoo:

Stick too your gun 's and get the bike you had back to its former glory

[Pegasus]

Hi all,

Bit of read coming up guys - sorry bout that - but hopefully some folks out there can make it through it and help! :)

Last Friday I had the thrill of being hit by a car that failed to see me/give way at a roundabout... I came out ok... rolled and flipped about the ground in the traditional way... walked away with a knocked knee and a sprained butt... (I didn't know you could even sprain a butt!)..

Ouch

My Ducati is a different story... the left pipe where the car hit is all dented in and the right side looks like someone took an angle grinder to it. The lady who hit me was actually really nice, admitted fault and insurance looked to be moving smoothly... but things are getting a little weird now.

For some reason I started off the process by claiming through my own insurance company (even though she crashed into me). Because she admitted fault, my insurance company said they will waive my usual excess. The assessors have been and decided a repair is in order, except that they don't want to pay for the carbon exhausts that I had on the bike (as this would push the cost of repairs into a write-off) and I'd have to pay up the difference if I wanted carbon exhausts replaced. So I'm in a bit of a predicament - I don't want them to write it off if it can be fixed (particularly because they said the payout would be less than what I bought it for), but I don't want it fixed to worse than how it was.

Were your exhausts noted on your policy, they do need to be to avoid isssues like this in a claim.

You can get your own pre accident vaulations (taking into account your exhaust), which once averaged with the Assessors valuation could increase the value of your bike, and make a 50/50 call of repair or write off, fall in your favor. Or at the very least get a better "total loss" payout for you.

What I am considering doing is telling my insurance company to stop what they're doing and contacting the nice lady's insurance company. I'd provide her with the list of parts I need and repair quotes (from the bike store) including getting it certified straight etc etc, as well as an amount of $$ for loss of use of the bike for the last week. All amounts I need to get back where I was. I have spoken to her and she has third party property damage cover (up to $1m!!) so would then just pass this on to her insurance co. They pay out to get it fixed. End of story?

You need to claim against your insurance, who will fix/pay out for your bike, then chase the other party for their costs. Only other way to do it, is if you were uninsured and had to deal with her insurance (good luck to anyone who needs to do that)

Does anyone out there see any flaws with option 2? Do I have to deal with my own insurance company and their crazy payout limits? Or can I just get quotes for what I need and approach her/her insurance company directly?

Thanks in advance guys!

Do you have a broker, or are you dealing with the insurer directly?

[mikemike104]

Stand your ground

You were not at fault

Your bike should be returned to the state it was in prior to accident

How the insurance company does that is it's problem, not yours

Do not accept their "settlement"

Agreedddd!

[Owl]

The assessors have been and decided a repair is in order, except that they don't want to pay for the carbon exhausts that I had on the bike (as this would push the cost of repairs into a write-off) and I'd have to pay up the difference if I wanted carbon exhausts replaced. So I'm in a bit of a predicament - I don't want them to write it off if it can be fixed (particularly because they said the payout would be less than what I bought it for), but I don't want it fixed to worse than how it was.

First of all, sorry to hear of your accident!

Second, get your own PAV's (Pre accident valuation) done to give you some leverage. I mean, who did the PAV for the insurance company? The local tow truck driver (ex car dealer), as my missus experienced? No, I'm not kidding either!

I work in the crash repair industry (cars) and was somewhat gobsmacked at the process and lack of knowledge, when it comes to bike repairs (after I crashed). Effectively, very little gets repaired and most items are priced for replacement.

I discovered also that accessors seem to be somewhat in the dark when it comes to bikes. I'm not sure if it'll help (won't hurt), but try to talk directly with the accessor. If they understand you're trying to be helpful to find a solution, it may make all the difference.

I understand I was in a slightly different position to you, but I had the accessors ear and off my own back, provided options/solutions. To give you a couple of examples, the damaged OEM seat on my bike was about $900. I imported a Sargent seat (way better) for $503 landed, saving insurance nearly $400. Aftermarket muffler was earmarked for OEM replacement:scratch: $1000+, so I contacted the manufacturer and sourced a repair kit for US$175 plus freight.

Make some enquiries and see what you can come up with? There is always a solution!:yes:

[Fatt Max]

Mate, this is so typical of these insurance companies.

My advice is to stand your ground on this. You are entitled to have the bike repaird to its original state.

I am doing some work in lobbying for change generally in the way bikers are treated by insurance companies and am very interested in hearing more from you. PM me your details and we can start some dialogue if you are keen, this sort of treatment needs to stop.

Hope all works out for you mate

[Owl]

You are entitled to have the bike repaird to its original state.

That's incorrect Max! You're entitled to be indemnified............there's a difference.

This claim is bordering on repair/write-off. The OP would like it repaired, so would standing your ground be the best way to achieve that outcome? Insurance companies can be stubborn too!

[Hiflyer]

My advice is to stand your ground on this. You are entitled to have the bike repaird to its original state.

Not all the time, if you have a "market value" policy with no mods listed then as far as the company was aware the bike was standard and they were charging you (most likely overly high) premiums according to the type of bike you have.

If you have an "agreed value" policy without the mods listed, they don't have to pay you for the mods (but they should really) BUT they do have to pay the value agreed on when you took the policy out, so if the value of the mods is included in that price, as much as you don't want to, pushing for a write off might be best??

In either case... If you have listed mods then they have to pay you for those.



That's incorrect Max! You're entitled to be indemnified............there's a difference.

That's what a market value policy is but like I said agreed value is agreed! lets hope he has an agreed value!!!


And as everyone has said, stand your ground, it's not like they're going to decline your claim for being pushy

[Owl]

That's what a market value policy is but like I said agreed value is agreed! lets hope he has an agreed value!!!

Indemnity is indemnity! Regardless of the type of policy (agreed/market), you are still entitled to be indemnified in the event of a claim.

[Hiflyer]

Indemnity is indemnity! Regardless of the type of policy (agreed/market), you are still entitled to be indemnified in the event of a claim.

Indemnity (EDIT - value) is the market value at the time of the claim less any depreciation wear and tear.

Or do you mean if he had an agreed value and they paid the agreed value he would be indemnified?

[Owl]

Indemnity is the market value at the time of the claim less any depreciation wear and tear.

No. Indemnity could be pay out, repair, replacement etc.


Or do you mean if he had an agreed value and they paid the agreed value he would be indemnified?

Yes!

[Fatt Max]

Hear what you are saying lads and its all well and good.

Ive just seen these companies wriggle and roll, sometimes the person on the receiving end gets baffled and the insurance company wins. I have had them try it on with me and others.

I suppose the ins and outs of the policy needs to be fully understood before I can really comment however even simple definitions in polices have been hard to come by.

Thats my take and I am taking up arms against these companies for the way that they treat their customers, specifically the bikers.

[Winston001]

That's incorrect Max! You're entitled to be indemnified............there's a difference.



Agreed.

There are some basic misunderstandings here. When you take out a contract of insurance, the company agrees to pay you damages for your loss. Often this will mean reinstatement (repair) but if the cost is above the value of the insured item - then you can't expect to get something better than you had.

There are exceptions such as house replacement policies, but most insurance is indemnity meaning you only get what you lose.

I know this often means less than what you honestly believe your bike was worth but its damned hard arguing with them. FYI I wrote off $1000 extras on my Duc for the peace of mind of a clean claim paid promptly. Plus the injuries were far more important.

You can bypass your insurance company and claim directly from the other party. You still need to prove the quantum of your loss (repairs) but that's true for any claim.

[Pegasus]

even simple definitions in polices have been hard to come by.

First basic principal of Insurance, in the event of a claim you are entitled to expect to indemnified (to be put back in the same position as prior to the claim).

Type of policy is only relevant in terms of the policies limit. A market value policy limited to that “the market value" or "Indemnity value” Agreed value is limit is limited to the “Agreed Value”.

An Agreed value policy (as far as I am aware) cannot be increased, it has been agreed prior to an accident. A Market Value can be, depending on “Pre-Accident Valuations” (PAV).

Further PAV’s will be averaged to come up with a settlement offer. This is just that, an offer of settlement. If you do not agree with the offer, DO NOT SIGN IT. You will however need to get further evidence (PAV’s) to get the offer increased.

In the OP’s case, those further PAV’s could make the 50/50 call between repair/write off a little more in his favour, making accessories fall into within the limit that the Insurer has set for repair.

[kave]

It pays to note that if you do want to challenge the valuation it can be a lengthy and possibly expensive process. Any motorcycle dealer can do you a PAV, but most will want the bike taken to their workshop which is a real pain if it is not ridable. Some places will do you a valuation for a very reasonable price and some will charge huge amounts. You will end up spending a substantial amount of time on the phone, both to valuers and the insurance company, and it will definitely mean that your claim will take longer to process. If you do decide to get a private valuation done it is best to get a dealer that specialises in the brand you have crashed to do the valuation, that being said, any LMVD dealer, including car dealerships can legally provide one.

I have been through this process, and as my bike is my only form of transport, finding alternative transport for the time taken to sort out the claim was expensive. I came out better off in the end, but only fractionally so, and I don't know if I would choose to go down that path again. I ended up providing three valuations between 5 and 6 thousand dollars, my insurance company provided two valuations, one of 4 thousand dollars, and when I claimed I wasn't going to accept such a low figure they got another valuation, this time of 2 thousand dollars. Valuers will act in favour of whoever is paying them. If you do decide to fight this, try to communicate by email as much as is possible, a paper-trail is your friend when you are battling insurance companies.

I guess if your bike is mainly used for recreational purposes (and you wont end up stuck taking the bus for weeks on end) then you can afford to take your time and fight for the extra money or carbon exhausts, but there is no guarantee that you will end up better off, and it will cost you time and possibly a reasonable sum of money.

[Mully]

Heh - you sprained your butt.

Did you have to have your butt in a sling?

[2wheelsofjustice]

Hey all, thanks for the posts!

An update..

I rang the insurance company and told them to cancel my claim and forget I ever contacted them. I told them the only reason I called them in the first place was because I thought their role would be to help me deal with the at-fault party's insurer. Not to start haggling nickle and dime over the costs of my claim and using the write-off/repair balance as some kind of leverage. I said that I'd rather take my chances with a straight-out damages claim against the lady, and her insurance company. I told them I refuse to give them permission to discuss my insurance with the other insurance party if they came a-calling.

So the call taker said she wasn't sure I could do this, thought it was all highly unorthodox... and wanted me to speak to her supervisor first. So I did, and she was much more helpful. She said I was entitled to follow PLAN B but that she really thought I'd have better luck sticking with them, under my own policy. She said the other insurer would only be liable for the lesser of 1) the repair cost or 2) the pre-accident market value. And they would fight like a wolverine to make sure 2) was as little as possible. She said she'd take over my claim so I wouldnt keep getting put in the phone lottery every time I called, and would make some inquiries on my behalf. Which she did and I got a call back saying they have agreed to increase the value of the exhaust replacement (which were noted on the policy btw) from $1,200 to $1,800. Enough to get carbon I should think :)

So it seems to be close to a happy ending. I still think I will raise the idea of claiming a reasonable amount of $$ for loss of use/enjoyment of the bike, and my time dealing with it. Why not? Don't ask don't get. It's what the americans would do... along with $37,000,000 for the humiliation of a butt sprain (and no Mully -thankfully it wasn't bad enough to require a sling... or worse.. a donut).

The alternative is that they pay me the repair cost (around 5k) and then give me the bike in its current sorry state to do with what I will. The repairs are mostly superficial (other than a leaking tank). Oh, btw its a ducati 750 sport.

My only other concern though is the effect the bike being hit by a car might have on selling the bike next year sometime if I want to go overseas... ah well.

[Owl]

or worse.. a donut).

:lol:

Glad it's all working out in your favour.:niceone:

[YellowDog]

The loss assessor is usually independent so if they say that to get the bike fixed to 'as before' condition would make it a write-off, then this is probably an opportunity for you to max the writeoff payment in your favour and then to buy it back for peanuts to repair it yourself.

BUT as your Plan B seems to be moving in the right direction.........................

[p.dath]

I rang the insurance company and told them to cancel my claim and forget I ever contacted them....

That's really good news! The persistance was worth it. And I think the lady is right. You could spend 6 months trying to settle with the other insurancde company.


So it seems to be close to a happy ending. I still think I will raise the idea of claiming a reasonable amount of $$ for loss of use/enjoyment of the bike, and my time dealing with it. Why not? Don't ask don't get.

Haha. Don't even think aout it. You can reasonably expect to spend $25k going to the District/High court.

Best you count yourself very lucky and walk away with a smile. :)

[jim.cox]

The alternative is that they pay me the repair cost (around 5k) and then give me the bike in its current sorry state to do with what I will.

This can be a good option - I've done it a couple of times - you end up with what you want and it usually comes out about even re the costs



Oh, btw its a ducati 750 sport.

Ever wanted to a custom? or a street fighter? or even just a different colour - now's your chance

[SPman]

i dont think insurance companies will pay out for items that are after-market like your carbon exhausts. If it was still the original exhaust, yes. Have you at least priced up a standard exhaust for the repair? (you need one for legal purposes).
Will probably find the originals are more expensive than the c/f's.....