Didn't realise our stats were that bad!

[PrincessBandit]

New Zealand road deaths are among the highest in the world per capita, alongside Cambodia, Malaysia, Lithuania and Slovenia, new statistics show.

Road-fatality figures from 33 countries released by the International Transport Forum (ITF) show New Zealand has the seventh-highest ratio of deaths per billion vehicle kilometres travelled and is the ninth highest in deaths per capita.

Per capita, Kiwi road deaths last year were the ninth highest, with 8.9 deaths for every 100,000 residents.

This was higher than the figures for the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Hungary and more than double the figures of Norway, Israel, the Netherlands, Sweden and Britain.

Malaysia had the highest ratio, with 23.8 deaths, while Britain had the lowest at 3.8.

In the two categories, New Zealand was accompanied by countries such as South Korea, the Czech Republic, Malaysia, Cambodia, Slovenia, Poland, Lithuania and Israel.

Safer Journeys recognises that drivers will make mistakes, but it's the road or the roadside that determines the outcome of those mistakes.

"Cars, roads and roadsides need to be protective," he said.

Upgrading the country's "unforgiving" road network would make a significant difference in improving road safety, Noon said, as many roads were carrying double the traffic volume they were designed for.

As the leading cause of crashes, poor observation, including driver distraction, inattention and fatigue, needed to be addressed.

Many road-safety concerns related to the country's inability to afford costly roading improvements, he said.

ITF secretary-general Jack Short said the 10 years to 2009 was "a record decade for road safety" as road deaths fell in 30 of 33 countries. In New Zealand, fatalities dropped 2 per cent over the decade.
from internet this morning.


Bit scary to see which countries we're ranked in amongst for these shocking figures. I still believe though that New Zealander's attitude to the road (predominantly self-centred) is a leading factor in our poor crash and death records. You only have to hear numerous anecdotes from people who live or have travelled extensively overseas to be reminded of how rude kiwi drivers are.
Perhaps an attitude adjustment for all vehicle operators might influence things, rather than blaming the road, the weather, the other person etc.
I'd be delighted if our roads were improved for all users, but somehow I think that without a mind change from the sheeple it might not be the cure all tptb would have it be.

[PirateJafa]

Probably right. I had a chap last night who was so aggrieved that my motard was behind him, that he had to open his door and lean out looking backwards to abuse me (while still moving at a rate of knots, I must add).

Amusingly, by the time he turns back around, he was well into the northbound offramp lane, and it was too late for him to turn back off it, despite his immediate best attempts. I chuckled the whole way back down the southbound.

I wasn't overly surprised when he did it either, as I'd seen him open his door to abuse another stationary car-driver at the set of lights before, while I was still approaching.

New Zealand drivers best drivers, c/d? :rolleyes:

[MIXONE]

I wonder if there is any connection to the fact that we are also very high in the p consumption stats too.I no longer give errant drivers the finger just get the fuck outta there.

[scumdog]

NZ drivers?

Most couldn't even drive a drawing pin into balsa-wood...<_<:rolleyes:

[yungatart]

I find it interesting that speed is not on the list of major causes since that is the direction TPTB focus on.
Pesonally I have to agree with poor observation being a major issue...but then I don't think we are taught to drive properly anyway, we are only taught to get a licence.

[doc]

I wonder if there is any connection to the fact that we are also very high in the p consumption stats too.I no longer give errant drivers the finger just get the fuck outta there.

When at the Gold Coast once we were impressed with the driving manners, the only dickhead we encountered was from NZ.

Road rage here is over the top. Had a run in with some one on something in Hamilton last year faarking scary. No idea what his problem was

[scissorhands]

NZ has a very very high prevalence of toxoplasmosis positive citizens, undercooked meat, gardening and CATS

Five years ago, Oxford University zoologists showed that the parasite Toxoplasma gondii alters the brain chemistry of rats so that they are more likely to seek out cats. Infection thus makes a rat more likely to be killed and the parasite more likely to end up in a cat—the only host in which it can complete the reproductive step of its life cycle. The parasite also lives in the brain cells of thousands of species, including about 60 million supposedly symptom-free Americans. Studies over the past few years have suggested that toxoplasmosis infections in humans, too, may cause behavioral changes—from subtle shifts to outright schizophrenia. Two studies this year add even weirder twists.
toxo-200.jpg

Toxoplasma gondii, revealed here in
a colorized electron micrograph, may
exert a spooky influence on the
people it infects.

U.S. Geological Survey biologist Kevin Lafferty has linked high rates of toxoplasmosis infection in 39 countries with elevated incidences of neuroticism, suggesting the mind-altering organism may be affecting the cultures of nations.
advertisement | article continues below

Stranger still, parasitologist Jaroslav Flegr of Charles University in Prague thinks T. gondii could also be skewing our sex ratios. When he looked at the clinical records of more than 1,800 babies born from 1996 to 2004, he noted a distinct trend: The normal sex ratio is 104 boys born for every 100 girls, but in women with high levels of antibodies against the parasite, the ratio was 260 boys for every 100 girls. Exactly how the parasite might be tipping the odds in favor of males isn't understood, but Flegr points out that it is known to suppress the immune system of its hosts, and because the maternal immune system sometimes attacks male fetuses in very early pregnancy, the parasite's ability to inhibit the immune response might protect future boys as well as itself.

"Our present study was rejected by eight journals, usually without any formal review," says Flegr, who had the same problem publishing an earlier one showing that infection more than doubles the odds of a person having a traffic accident. "People don't like the possibility that their behavior and life are manipulated by a parasite," he says.

[MSTRS]

"People don't like the possibility that their behavior and life are manipulated by a parasite," he says.

Which is why we don't like politicians....

[Latte]

Which is why we don't like politicians....

Oh, my sides :D

*Bling*

[Milts]

It was very interesting to see an article on road fatalities which didn't mention speed once. And they make some good (and little heard in much of the media) points about road conditions/safety, and the fact that they were designed for a much lower volume of traffic.

It does still fail to mention the complete lack of driver training in this country though...

[MSTRS]

Oh, my sides :D

*Bling*



Thang you, thang you, thang you very mush.

In all seriousness, when looking at the reasons for our poor road toll, there really is only one.
Politicians.
Let's face it, it is them who focus on certain areas of factor in the toll. Areas that generate a nice little earner. Speed and alcohol. Seemingly ignoring of other areas of factor that cost money. Like decent driver training etc, road conditions, their design and road furniture.

[Jantar]

I'm always a bit suspicious when I read this type of reporting, so a little bit of searching found the original press release. http://www.internationaltransportforum.org/Press/PDFs/2010-09-15IRTAD.pdf

Just looking at road deaths per capita is meaningless as in many countries there are far fewer opportunities to own motor vehicles compared to here in New Zealand, and then because of road congestion fewer long journeys are undertaken. Therefore the best criteria to use is road deaths per billion vehicle km. The report published in New Zealand states that we are 7th worst out of 33 countries. However the source report only gathers that statistic from 23 countries, and then only uses 2008 data. So we are still bad, but not as bad as made out. The 33 countries are those where we are 9th on a per capita basis, and USA is 5th.

I will look for the source data, that should be even more enlightening.

[MSTRS]

The point I get from that report is that our road toll is not flash, and the reasons for that are not necessarily what we are constantly being bashed with.

[Morcs]

the stats dont really tell us much.

Its probably a combination of:

=Shit roads
=Heaps of P feinds
=Heaps of asians
=Cops pulling u-turns

Combined with the normal amount of:
=Stupid people
=woman drivers (speaking generally here)
=possbible bad driver training
=lack of motorways

[davebullet]

Step 1. - Raise the bar to get the license in the first place. A license isn't a right of passage. After all, not just anyone can fly a helicopter after a multi-guess paper based learners test. Introduce regular retesting and compulsary defensive driving courses and refreshers

Step 2. - Divert the money saved on insurance and ACC claims from the people you now don't have to cover from 1. above into improved roads and driver training for those with the skills

Step 3. - Zero alcohol tolerance - period. too bad if you ping the odd person due to medical reasons. Lives will be saved

Step 4. - Reduce number of speed cameras. A speed camera does not stop the driver at time of infraction so how the hell can they be about safety?

[Clockwork]

...but then I don't think we are taught to drive properly anyway, we are only taught to get a licence.

You're probably right but even if we were taught to drive properly I'd suggest that there is a sizable "hard-core" of antisocial idiots out there that would disregard the training as soon as they hit the road.

[scumdog]

You're probably right but even if we were taught to drive properly I'd suggest that there is a sizable "hard-core" of antisocial idiots out there that would disregard the training as soon as they hit the road.


And then act all surprised when they kill their mates/some other poor road -user/themselves...

[Latte]

You're probably right but even if we were taught to drive properly I'd suggest that there is a sizable "hard-core" of antisocial idiots out there that would disregard the training as soon as they hit the road.

Definitely , but it would be easier to deal with the 5-10% of drivers that are idiots if we didn't have the 50%+ of drivers that are muppets.

[Subike]

Where is the stat that give the ratio of vehicles owned and driven per head of population od each contry mentioned.
We may have one of the higest incident rates, But when you put it in proprotion to the ownership it changes.
4 .5 mill kiwis own 5 mill cars.
4.5 mill newyork city dwellers own 1.5 mill cars
Britten has a low incerdent per population head of vehicle incidents, but vehicle ownerdhip in britten per population head is only 1/16 of ours
That one comparison alone shows the stats to be false by perspective

[scumdog]

Step 4. - Reduce number of speed cameras. A speed camera does not stop the driver at time of infraction so how the hell can they be about safety?


Put lots more of them up (and some dummy ones) and LOTS of signs pointing out where they are..:devil2:

[aprilia_RS250]

Where is the stat that give the ratio of vehicles owned and driven per head of population od each contry mentioned.
We may have one of the higest incident rates, But when you put it in proprotion to the ownership it changes.
4 .5 mill kiwis own 5 mill cars.
4.5 mill newyork city dwellers own 1.5 mill cars
Britten has a low incerdent per population head of vehicle incidents, but vehicle ownerdhip in britten per population head is only 1/16 of ours
That one comparison alone shows the stats to be false by perspective

Fully agree with you. Hence the term "lies, damn lies and statistics"

[Morcs]

Where is the stat that give the ratio of vehicles owned and driven per head of population od each contry mentioned.
We may have one of the higest incident rates, But when you put it in proprotion to the ownership it changes.
4 .5 mill kiwis own 5 mill cars.
4.5 mill newyork city dwellers own 1.5 mill cars
Britten has a low incerdent per population head of vehicle incidents, but vehicle ownerdhip in britten per population head is only 1/16 of ours
That one comparison alone shows the stats to be false by perspective

Have you driven on british roads?

The sheer amount of cars is astounding. When i came over here i was astonished by how few cars were on the road - and hence if id been told these statistics then i wouldve been shocked. But having been here 5 years now, its no suprise.
Though I am suprised britain comes out on top. wtf. I suppose our training and licensing is better, roads are better, and a lot of young cnuts cant afford cars as insurance is so expensive (mandatory)

[Milts]

Where is the stat that give the ratio of vehicles owned and driven per head of population od each contry mentioned.
We may have one of the higest incident rates, But when you put it in proprotion to the ownership it changes.
4 .5 mill kiwis own 5 mill cars.
4.5 mill newyork city dwellers own 1.5 mill cars
Britten has a low incerdent per population head of vehicle incidents, but vehicle ownerdhip in britten per population head is only 1/16 of ours
That one comparison alone shows the stats to be false by perspective

You seem to have conveniently ignored the stats per billion miles traveled...

[Jantar]

You seem to have conveniently ignored the stats per billion miles traveled...
That's the way the stats are presented. Per head of poulation Brittain is 24 places better than us. Per billion km travelled Brittain is 14 places better than us.

Our stats are nothing to be proud of, but they do show that the enforcement methods used in New Zealand are not dealing with the major causes of accidents: inattention, fatigue, intersection behaviour, road design, training. Instead our enforcement is aimed mainly at the revenue sources of speed and seatbelt use, and the anti alcohol message.

[Pixie]

New Zealand road deaths are among the highest in the world per capita, alongside Cambodia, Malaysia, Lithuania and Slovenia, new statistics show.

Road-fatality figures from 33 countries released by the International Transport Forum (ITF) show New Zealand has the seventh-highest ratio of deaths per billion vehicle kilometres travelled and is the ninth highest in deaths per capita.

Per capita, Kiwi road deaths last year were the ninth highest, with 8.9 deaths for every 100,000 residents.

This was higher than the figures for the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Hungary and more than double the figures of Norway, Israel, the Netherlands, Sweden and Britain.

Malaysia had the highest ratio, with 23.8 deaths, while Britain had the lowest at 3.8.

In the two categories, New Zealand was accompanied by countries such as South Korea, the Czech Republic, Malaysia, Cambodia, Slovenia, Poland, Lithuania and Israel.

Safer Journeys recognises that drivers will make mistakes, but it's the road or the roadside that determines the outcome of those mistakes.

"Cars, roads and roadsides need to be protective," he said.

Upgrading the country's "unforgiving" road network would make a significant difference in improving road safety, Noon said, as many roads were carrying double the traffic volume they were designed for.

As the leading cause of crashes, poor observation, including driver distraction, inattention and fatigue, needed to be addressed.

Many road-safety concerns related to the country's inability to afford costly roading improvements, he said.

ITF secretary-general Jack Short said the 10 years to 2009 was "a record decade for road safety" as road deaths fell in 30 of 33 countries. In New Zealand, fatalities dropped 2 per cent over the decade.
from internet this morning.


Bit scary to see which countries we're ranked in amongst for these shocking figures. I still believe though that New Zealander's attitude to the road (predominantly self-centred) is a leading factor in our poor crash and death records. You only have to hear numerous anecdotes from people who live or have travelled extensively overseas to be reminded of how rude kiwi drivers are.
Perhaps an attitude adjustment for all vehicle operators might influence things, rather than blaming the road, the weather, the other person etc.
I'd be delighted if our roads were improved for all users, but somehow I think that without a mind change from the sheeple it might not be the cure all tptb would have it be.




I find it interesting that speed is not on the list of major causes since that is the direction TPTB focus on.
Pesonally I have to agree with poor observation being a major issue...but then I don't think we are taught to drive properly anyway, we are only taught to get a licence.


This the result you get when the authorities think they can reduce the road toll and make a buck at the same time and that teaching drivers to drive well makes for "overconfident drivers"



NZ has a very very high prevalence of toxoplasmosis positive citizens, undercooked meat, gardening and CATS

Five years ago, Oxford University zoologists showed that the parasite Toxoplasma gondii alters the brain chemistry of rats so that they are more likely to seek out cats. Infection thus makes a rat more likely to be killed and the parasite more likely to end up in a cat—the only host in which it can complete the reproductive step of its life cycle. The parasite also lives in the brain cells of thousands of species, including about 60 million supposedly symptom-free Americans. Studies over the past few years have suggested that toxoplasmosis infections in humans, too, may cause behavioral changes—from subtle shifts to outright schizophrenia. Two studies this year add even weirder twists.
toxo-200.jpg

Toxoplasma gondii, revealed here in
a colorized electron micrograph, may
exert a spooky influence on the
people it infects.

U.S. Geological Survey biologist Kevin Lafferty has linked high rates of toxoplasmosis infection in 39 countries with elevated incidences of neuroticism, suggesting the mind-altering organism may be affecting the cultures of nations.
advertisement | article continues below

Stranger still, parasitologist Jaroslav Flegr of Charles University in Prague thinks T. gondii could also be skewing our sex ratios. When he looked at the clinical records of more than 1,800 babies born from 1996 to 2004, he noted a distinct trend: The normal sex ratio is 104 boys born for every 100 girls, but in women with high levels of antibodies against the parasite, the ratio was 260 boys for every 100 girls. Exactly how the parasite might be tipping the odds in favor of males isn't understood, but Flegr points out that it is known to suppress the immune system of its hosts, and because the maternal immune system sometimes attacks male fetuses in very early pregnancy, the parasite's ability to inhibit the immune response might protect future boys as well as itself.

"Our present study was rejected by eight journals, usually without any formal review," says Flegr, who had the same problem publishing an earlier one showing that infection more than doubles the odds of a person having a traffic accident. "People don't like the possibility that their behavior and life are manipulated by a parasite," he says.

the worst drivers in the world are all in high toxo infection regions

[Milts]

That's the way the stats are presented. Per head of poulation Brittain is 24 places better than us. Per billion km travelled Brittain is 14 places better than us.

Our stats are nothing to be proud of, but they do show that the enforcement methods used in New Zealand are not dealing with the major causes of accidents: inattention, fatigue, intersection behaviour, road design, training. Instead our enforcement is aimed mainly at the revenue sources of speed and seatbelt use, and the anti alcohol message.

I'm completely with you on the second part, but I think your first statement is misinformed. While the difference changes from 24 places to 14 places, statistics are not available per billion k's traveled in ten of the 33 countries. Were those statistics available, the placing difference would probably be significantly larger for the deaths per k's traveled. See page 9 of the original stats.

For any interested, full stats are here:
http://www.internationaltransportforum.org/Press/PDFs/2010-09-15IRTAD.pdf

Some interesting reading. Nicely laid out. Also discusses motorcycle statistics separately. It's interesting to see that NZ is one of only 5 of the 33 countries which had an increase in the road toll from 2008 to 2009. To be honest though, my suspicion is that we have a relatively small sample size (smaller population) and so variance plays a much larger part. This can be seen by the extent the road toll fluctuates here each year.

[onearmedbandit]

Fucking asian drivers eh?

[duckonin]

NZ drivers?

Most couldn't even drive a drawing pin into balsa-wood...<_<:rolleyes:

Or a fly into a butcher shop....:msn-wink:

[onearmedbandit]

Step 1. - Raise the bar to get the license in the first place. A license isn't a right of passage. After all, not just anyone can fly a helicopter after a multi-guess paper based learners test. Introduce regular retesting and compulsary defensive driving courses and refreshers

Agreed 100%


Step 2. - Divert the money saved on insurance and ACC claims from the people you now don't have to cover from 1. above into improved roads and driver training for those with the skills

Yeah I mostly agree with this too.


Step 3. - Zero alcohol tolerance - period. too bad if you ping the odd person due to medical reasons. Lives will be saved

Sorry, but I don't think this will make much difference. Those that drive drunk currently are already breaking the law. All your doing is penalising those that have 1 or 2 drinks. It's like increased gun control laws. All your doing is penalising those that follow the law.


Step 4. - Reduce number of speed cameras. A speed camera does not stop the driver at time of infraction so how the hell can they be about safety?

Yeah I think they are pretty ineffective tools. I know I slow where I know there is one, and then resume my normal pace. This might be 55km/h in a 50 zone or xxxkm/h in a 100 zone.

[Jantar]

I'm completely with you on the second part, but I think your first statement is misinformed. While the difference changes from 24 places to 14 places, statistics are not available per billion k's traveled in ten of the 33 countries. Were those statistics available, the placing difference would probably be significantly larger for the deaths per k's traveled. See page 9 of the original stats.

.....
Because stats are not available we cannot make any assumptions about what they may or may not show. If stats were shown for the other 200 countries that aren't listed then how would we fare? We just don't know, and so can't comment.

[Big Dave]

Topography is a factor here too.
The reasons why motorcyclists love the roads are also what makes them more dangerous.

[SPman]

In New Zealand, fatalities dropped 2 per cent over the decade.
Despite a massive increase in traffic policing and increasing draconian penalties!......obviously, somethings not working.....perhaps they should increase penalties some more and arm all police so thay can pistol whip those going 2k over......

[Berries]

NZ has a very very high prevalence of toxoplasmosis positive citizens, undercooked meat, gardening and CATS
Cats. I knew they were at the root of it.

Burn them all.

[awayatc]

but do kiwibikers wave more per trillion miles travelled....?

Don't tell me f*ckn cambodja beat us at that to......:nono:

[scissorhands]

Why is Malaysia top of the list?

I sold a couple of motorbikes to Malaysians, a FX125 and a Kwaka 6speed water cooled 50.

Those guys were muppets, I feared for their safety both times

[scissorhands]

FROM: http://www.tm.mahidol.ac.th/seameo/2004_35_1/04A-3160.pdf


Toxoplasmosis is common and has a high
prevalence among the Malaysian population. It
is interesting to note that the highest
seroprevalence of toxoplasmosis in most of the
studies was in Malays, when compared with other
races (Chinese and Indians). This finding is in
agreement with other studies in this region
(Partono and Cross, 1975, Gandahusada, 1978;
Wong et al, 2000). This could be explained by
the fact that Malays have a habit of keeping cats
in their house which leads to close contact where
they will be more likely exposed to contaminated
cat feces, which was noted by other investigators
(Tan and Zaman, 1973; Thomas et al, 1980).

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01443610310001604376



As in many cities throughout the world, Doha in Qatar has had a significant rodent problem for decades and it was the difficulties in controlling these rodents that led to a solution based on the introduction of cats in the 1960s, but without any consideration of the possible knock-on effects for human health. Introduced cats have multiplied and colonized rapidly around food and water resources, mainly in urban but also in rural areas. They are known to harbour a range of helminths [24,25] and most likely also protozoa and other infectious organisms, although no surveys of the latter have been reported as yet. Cats are only rarely kept as pets in Qatar, and yet the feline population is believed to exceed 2 million, the vast majority living on the streets, scavenging garbage as well as feeding on the rodents. In the city of Doha and its surroundings, these cats mostly have a feral existence congregating near human dwellings, businesses, restaurants and in the market places where food for human consumption is prepared and traded. Because of the numbers involved Doha city has introduced a control program, but there are no plans to eliminate cats since they are believed to play a vital role in keeping down rodents populations.

[Swoop]

New Zealand road deaths are among the highest in the world per capita, alongside Cambodia, Malaysia, Lithuania and Slovenia, new statistics show.
We are not called the Banana Republic for nothing!!

Its probably a combination of:
=possbible bad driver training
Possible????????????
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Possible???

Scratch and win....
NO driver training - just "testing".

[candor]

It was very interesting to see an article on road fatalities which didn't mention speed once. ...

It did not come out of the blue - many organisations have been pushing that the excess focus on a couple of "non majority" of the toll count issues is negligent. Pushing it for at least 4 years. Select committess and MPs have been beseiged.
Once they shuit up with their lies about limit drops (the bottom of any sane safety advocats list) both sides of the house we'll know they have their bearings again. Darren Hughes has been telling a heap of porkies to try selling a limit drop as Lab thinks this makes the Nats look bad. The Nats tho know true results are what truly would if they dropped. They are starting to get it. The submission printing presses of many organisations may soon be able to be turned off it is to be hoped. TG the media is finally asking the right questions...

[JimO]

New Zealand road deaths are among the highest in the world per capita, alongside Cambodia, Malaysia, Lithuania and Slovenia, new statistics show.

Road-fatality figures from 33 countries released by the International Transport Forum (ITF) show New Zealand has the seventh-highest ratio of deaths per billion vehicle kilometres travelled and is the ninth highest in deaths per capita.

Per capita, Kiwi road deaths last year were the ninth highest, with 8.9 deaths for every 100,000 residents.

This was higher than the figures for the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Hungary and more than double the figures of Norway, Israel, the Netherlands, Sweden and Britain.

Malaysia had the highest ratio, with 23.8 deaths, while Britain had the lowest at 3.8.

In the two categories, New Zealand was accompanied by countries such as South Korea, the Czech Republic, Malaysia, Cambodia, Slovenia, Poland, Lithuania and Israel.

Safer Journeys recognises that drivers will make mistakes, but it's the road or the roadside that determines the outcome of those mistakes.

"Cars, roads and roadsides need to be protective," he said.

Upgrading the country's "unforgiving" road network would make a significant difference in improving road safety, Noon said, as many roads were carrying double the traffic volume they were designed for.

As the leading cause of crashes, poor observation, including driver distraction, inattention and fatigue, needed to be addressed.

Many road-safety concerns related to the country's inability to afford costly roading improvements, he said.

ITF secretary-general Jack Short said the 10 years to 2009 was "a record decade for road safety" as road deaths fell in 30 of 33 countries. In New Zealand, fatalities dropped 2 per cent over the decade.
from internet this morning.


Bit scary to see which countries we're ranked in amongst for these shocking figures. I still believe though that New Zealander's attitude to the road (predominantly self-centred) is a leading factor in our poor crash and death records. You only have to hear numerous anecdotes from people who live or have travelled extensively overseas to be reminded of how rude kiwi drivers are.
Perhaps an attitude adjustment for all vehicle operators might influence things, rather than blaming the road, the weather, the other person etc.
I'd be delighted if our roads were improved for all users, but somehow I think that without a mind change from the sheeple it might not be the cure all tptb would have it be.

i say bullshit

[schrodingers cat]

I wish everybody else would buck their ideas up and fix this problem