Tight-loose-tight-loose chain

[StephenG]

I'm still new so please be gentle.. now, where to begin...

So I've recently purchased a lovely second hand bike of TM that had only done about 3500km. All was good and about 1000km down the road I noticed the chain was really slack. So I tightened it to spec, checked the wheel alignment, and washed it. After a day or too I noticed it had an odd "whimm whimm whimm.." noise at high speed, especially audible during engine braking or while the clutch was pulled in. Suggestions from Google were either the speedo seal or the chain was too tight. So I loosened the chain a little (still within spec) and the noise has quietened down quite a bit, but is still there. Fast forward a week or two and I notice there's some gunk on the inside of the fairing that looks like it's dripped down from above. A finger through it and sure enough it's a very thick globby mixture of some sort of oil (with some other dirt(?) mixed in). Following it up and taking the cover off the front sprocket area I find heaps more of it all around the side of the casing and by the sprocket (more towards the front of the casing rather than underneath the sprocket, so I'm not convinced it's coming from behind the sprocket). Is this just flicked off chain grease? Is it normal to have a huge build-up in there??

So I cleaned that off and then noticed that the chain seemed really slack again :angry:. This time I had rollers so I put the bike on those and checked the chain slack a few times, rolling the wheels a little bit each time. I noticed it was really loose most of the time and relatively tight for only a small bit. The manual says it should be between 2-3cm. At the tightest point it's about 2.5cm and for most of the rest of the chain it's around 4cm. I then noticed that it happens in alignment with the wheel, not at the same point in the chain. So I figure my chain is fine but there's something wrong somewhere else...
I'm pretty sure the wheels are aligned - I used the string method and it's only about 2-3mm difference at the front wheel (it rides nice and straight when I let go of the handlebars).
The rear sprocket isn't warped (I used a dial gauge and it's only about 0.2mm variation in total). I fixed a pencil to the swingarm by the sprocket and rotated the wheel - the tips of the teeth of the sprockets seem to meet at pretty much the same place (so the sprocket seems to be a good circle). The teeth are in good nick on both sprockets.
The engine sprocket seems to be centred nicely too (no bent countershaft as far as I can tell).
The wheel doesn't seem to make any noise when I'm rolling it at slow speed and doesn't jiggle on the sidestand/rollers.

I'm guessing that the chain might be what's making the noise as it hits the guide but I can't figure out why it varies in slackness so much. I've looked after the chain well since I've got it with regular oiling/cleaning (I think the last owner did too). Also, I ride like a nana so it definitely has not been abused (no wheelies here).
What else should I look at - have I missed something? Could it be something to do with the cush drive? What do you think the problem is?

I think the warranty runs out next month but the shop is about 4 hours drive away so I'd rather not have to take it in.

[nodrog]

The chain sounds poked to me, and the build up of gunk is normal.

Where in Auckland do you live that the nearest dealer is 4 hours away?

Fanny

[MSTRS]

The chain sounds poked to me, and the build up of gunk is normal.



Depends on the kms. Or whether axle grease was used...
Chain is definitely suspect.

[p.dath]

I'd be most suspicious of the chain as well.

I'd try locating the tight spots, and give them anb extra clean (suggest you use kerosene) and lube, and see if it loosens the tightness. Otherwise I think you might be up for a new chain.

Note that lube is best applied to a hot chain (aka, after you have been riding). The lube contains a solvent that disolves with heat. Otherwise you will tend to get a build up of chain grease on the front sprocket - as you have done. Even applying the lube to a hot chain you'll still get the buildup.

Note that you only need a small amount of lube applied to the inside of the chain on both sides. Once you have applied it around the chain, give the outside of the chain with a rag to remove any excess lube.

With regard to the build up, remove the cover over the front sprocket, and spray keroscene onto it (get a plastic spray bottle from Super Cheap if you don't have one). Wait a couple of minutes, and most of the gunk will disolve off. If not, spray in more kerosene.

ps. Kerosene is a good chain cleaner as well.

[Flip]

The build up of gunk in normal, just leave it there grease is your friend.

The tight-loose-chain chain and the wir-wir-wir noise when riding is a worn out chain. If you check the chain pitch at several places (say 10 links at a time) you will find that the pitch is not constant. It usually goes when the bike has been left out and weather or the chain has been water blasted and water has got into the chain links and caused corrosion and wear at just one place.

A little oil often is the thing with chains and I can't see the purpose in cleaning a chain they only get dirty again.

[MSTRS]

Actually, usually the tight spot is chain in good condition. It's the rest of it that has worn. The wear is in/side the links.
Sometimes, corrosion between overlapping plates or in the pins causes those little 'peaks' you see when 2 links can't return to straight between the sprockets.

[StephenG]

The chain sounds poked to me, and the build up of gunk is normal.

Where in Auckland do you live that the nearest dealer is 4 hours away?

Fanny

Ahhhh! I thought it had a one year kwaka warranty and then the last year was at the dealer that sold it only. I looked into it (it's not clear on the kwaka website...) and it's 2 years kwaka! Thanks Fanny. I've taken it to a dealer and they're going to have a looksie.


I'd be most suspicious of the chain as well.

I'd try locating the tight spots, and give them anb extra clean (suggest you use kerosene) and lube, and see if it loosens the tightness. Otherwise I think you might be up for a new chain.

Note that lube is best applied to a hot chain (aka, after you have been riding). The lube contains a solvent that disolves with heat. Otherwise you will tend to get a build up of chain grease on the front sprocket - as you have done. Even applying the lube to a hot chain you'll still get the buildup.

Note that you only need a small amount of lube applied to the inside of the chain on both sides. Once you have applied it around the chain, give the outside of the chain with a rag to remove any excess lube....

Thanks p.dath but I've been doing all of that since I got the bike.


The build up of gunk in normal, just leave it there grease is your friend.

The tight-loose-chain chain and the wir-wir-wir noise when riding is a worn out chain. If you check the chain pitch at several places (say 10 links at a time) you will find that the pitch is not constant. It usually goes when the bike has been left out and weather or the chain has been water blasted and water has got into the chain links and caused corrosion and wear at just one place.

A little oil often is the thing with chains and I can't see the purpose in cleaning a chain they only get dirty again.

Wayyy too much gunk. So much so it was leaking through the casing and leaving huge globs on my fairing. I didn't get around to checking the chain pitch, that was the next thing to do (at the dealers now though). I figure it should be pretty good, the bike has been stored inside, only seen a little bit of rain, and the chain (and whole bike) has only done 5,000km.

I've kept the chain well (I'd like to think so), oiling and cleaning regularly (no water blasting or WD40(oh the controversy)). I think the last owner used a much thicker oil than me though so I think a lot of the gunk was buildup from him. I use some Dupont Teflon multi-use dry wax stuff (blue bottle). Less splatter on the bike but I have been putting it on more frequently than I would oil.

I looked for tight links but couldn't find any. I still don't understand how (e.g. one tight link) would cause the chain to go tight when the wheel/sprocket is at a certain place, rather than the chain. It doesn't matter which bit of chain is where, it would go tight when the wheel/sprocket was at a certain place (even after riding it around the block and checking again). Oh well it's at the dealers now and hopefully they'll figure it out and hopefully it's under warranty. Apparently the chain and sprocket might not be under warranty because they're "consumables" but I think a chain should last more than 5000km (Consumer Guarantees Act?).

Thanks for all your help, I'll post the result from the dealer when I get it back.

[NZsarge]

Chain is definitely suspect.

Yeah plus 1 on that comment.

[MSTRS]

I've kept the chain well (I'd like to think so), oiling and cleaning regularly (no water blasting or WD40(oh the controversy)). I think the last owner used a much thicker oil than me though so I think a lot of the gunk was buildup from him. I use some Dupont Teflon multi-use dry wax stuff (blue bottle). Less splatter on the bike but I have been putting it on more frequently than I would oil.

It is entirely possible to put too much lube on a chain. It will simply fling off the excess. You have a great product...just use sparingly at between 500/1000km intervals. Frequency depends on conditions. Try to direct the spray along the link plates on both sides of the chain, but on the inside of the chain as it is looped. That way it gets where it's needed, and less gets flung off.



I looked for tight links but couldn't find any. I still don't understand how (e.g. one tight link) would cause the chain to go tight when the wheel/sprocket is at a certain place, rather than the chain. It doesn't matter which bit of chain is where, it would go tight when the wheel/sprocket was at a certain place (even after riding it around the block and checking again).
It's more likely to be links that have gone lose through wear. The tiniest amount of wear in a link is multiplied by all the worn links, and it adds up to a lot of extra length in what is called chain stretch. The chain on your bike is unlikely to be a high quality one (Hyosung's are cheap for a reason), but even so, 5000kms is not a lot of use.

[StephenG]

When I took it to the dealer he thought it was something to do with the chain too. Got it back now. Turns out he reckons the chain was too tight (I already had it loose compared to the manual - in my first post). He couldn't find any tight links. He said he took it for a ride, heard the noise, brought it back, loosened and lubed the chain, took it for another ride and the noise had gone. Now because chain tightening and lubricating is something the owner is meant to do, I had to pay half an hour labour fee - $62.10 :blink:.
I checked the chain again; it had been loosened a bit, so now the tightest point is about 3cm and the loosest is about 4.5cm - enough to push the chain from the bottom up to hit the swingarm (other Ninja riders are you reading??). I double-checked with him and he reckons it's correct (despite what the service manual and owner's manual lead me to believe).
I took it for a ride and the noise was still there. Gear changes seemed a little bit easier but the noise was possibly slightly increased. You can feel it in your foot when using the rear-brake. Hard to hear when accelerating, easier to hear when engine braking, easy to hear with the clutch in (and at high speed).
I took it back to him and he went for another quick ride. This time he could hear it and said it was normal and nothing to worry about (why didn't he say this on his very first ride then? It hadn't really changed...).
So I took it home and measured the chain stretch. It's meant to be replaced if the length of 20 links are over 323mm. The largest measurement I got was about 321-322mm (most of them). The smallest (which was when the chain was already almost at it's tightest) was about 319mm. I'm guessing this means it's relatively close to needing to be replaced..

Overall there was excellent service - they were very friendly and helpful and he was keen to offer advice etc. but on the other hand I'm still a bit miffed that I had to pay $62.10 for something that I can do quite easily myself and that it wasn't covered by warranty.
I'm also only 600km away from a service km according to the book and the dealer have only just started doing Kawasaki so I think they're keen to try and get me as a repeat customer, although I'd much rather learn how to do it myself and do it that way, it would certainly be a lot cheaper too. There would only be a few things I don't think I could do (I have the service manual too). I think I got into the wrong profession with rates like that...

[yachtie10]

(Hyosung's are cheap for a reason)[/QUOTE]

Thats a bit harsh especially as he rides a kwaka:yes:

[MSTRS]

Yea, my bad. Been delving into that thread about the GV250 fuel problem too. Comment still true, just not applicable in this case.
I am interested to read the OP saying the noise he hears can be felt as a thump through the rear brake pedal. This suggests a link pin that has seized hitting the front sprocket (small diameter exacerbates the issue) and not instantly conforming to the reqd curve.

[StephenG]

StephenG's anger is brewing.

So to start with, I wasn't happy that they did things to the bike that I would have to pay for, without my permission. I made it clear from the start that it was supposed to be under warranty and I wanted to know whether fixing it would be covered. I felt it a bit rude when they rang to let me know that they had loosened/lubed whatever (which I would've happily done myself) and I would have to pay for it (say what! I wanted it under warranty because I don't have money to pay for a mechanic!). Ok so I went there and I ended up paying because I didn't think I'd get my bike back otherwise and I was gonna have to do a LOT of walking otherwise. I tried to justify it to myself that at least the bike was fixed and I wouldn't have to worry about it anymore. Turns out my partner was also pissed when I told her how it went down.

So anyway, had to do some car moving to put the bike in it's home tonight...
It makes a loud ticking noise from around the front sprocket when rolling forward in neutral with the bike off. Not backwards, only forwards. If I go really slow there's no noise but about walking speed noise is very audible. I pulled the cover off again and had a look as my partner rolled it forwards. It sounds/looks like it's whenever a new link meets the front sprocket.
My guesses are either:
A) Chain not oiled well enough (the dealer oiled it today)
B) Chain too loose (it looks to sag a little bit before it meets the front sprocket).

Recommendations?

[hayd3n]

new chain:yes:

[MSTRS]

Recommendations?

New chain. Unfortunately, if you want it to last, you will need new sprockets as well. Because they need to wear together.
Otherwise your already-worn sprockets will just destroy the new chain in short order.

[StephenG]

Ok I took it for a 10 minute ride to make sure it was nice and warm so that the clicking wasn't some sort of oil thing.... still does it.


New chain. Unfortunately, if you want it to last, you will need new sprockets as well. Because they need to wear together.
Otherwise your already-worn sprockets will just destroy the new chain in short order.
How do I convince the mechanic of this? He might just say the ticking is "normal". I think he'll just tighten it again or super-lubricate it and say the other noise is normal (then why didn't he say that after the first ride!!). I'm also going to be wanting my money back from the first time... :argue:

[MSTRS]

Clicking is NOT normal. It is what chains tend to do when they are past it. No amount of lube will change that.

[yachtie10]

Ok I took it for a 10 minute ride to make sure it was nice and warm so that the clicking wasn't some sort of oil thing.... still does it.


How do I convince the mechanic of this? He might just say the ticking is "normal". I think he'll just tighten it again or super-lubricate it and say the other noise is normal (then why didn't he say that after the first ride!!). I'm also going to be wanting my money back from the first time... :argue:

While I think you can ask for your money back on the service charge I dont think a chain and sprockets would be covered under warranty unless they were shown to be defective
By the way charging for half an hour at those rates to loosen a chain and I wouldnt be going back there if I had an option
Just my opinion

[StephenG]

While I think you can ask for your money back on the service charge I dont think a chain and sprockets would be covered under warranty unless they were shown to be defective
By the way charging for half an hour at those rates to loosen a chain and I wouldnt be going back there if I had an option
Just my opinion

If I take it to another dealer I'll just be back to square one and no better off. Shouldn't I be covered under the Consumer Guarantees Act for the chain? Something about lasting a reasonable period of time? I would say 5000k for a chain is a bit low? Even the mechanic said the chain should last about 15,000 - 20,000 km.

Also I can't hear the clicking while riding... I think the engine is too noisy for that.

[p.dath]

If I take it to another dealer I'll just be back to square one and no better off. Shouldn't I be covered under the Consumer Guarantees Act for the chain? Something about lasting a reasonable period of time? I would say 5000k for a chain is a bit low? Even the mechanic said the chain should last about 15,000 - 20,000 km.

Also I can't hear the clicking while riding... I think the engine is too noisy for that.

Was the dealer a member of the MTA or some other reputable association? If so, you could seek their input.

[gatch]

What does the wear on the sprocket teeth look like ?

Teeth should have a uniform and symmetrical curve.

If you can discern anything easily with your eyes, the sprockets are poked and will rape your shiny new chain when you buy it..

Replace your chain and sprockets mate.

[StephenG]

What does the wear on the sprocket teeth look like ?

Teeth should have a uniform and symmetrical curve.

If you can discern anything easily with your eyes, the sprockets are poked and will rape your shiny new chain when you buy it..

Replace your chain and sprockets mate.

The teeth are really good, only a tiny bit of wear on the side of each sprocket is visible. Like I said, the bike has only done 5,000km and hasn't been abused.

Anyway, went back to the dealer and he said the ticking was normal (and got two other dirt bikes to make a clicking noise - neither of which was quite like or as loud as mine..). He thinks my bike is fine. He didn't seem too happy that I had come back again. I told him I was unhappy about having to pay for work yesterday that I didn't ask him to do, which he knew wasn't covered by the warranty. He was unhappy about it because obviously he worked on the bike which costs him time. Some :argue: ensued and I accepted that he had to do some work first to establish whether it was a valid warranty claim but he should've left it there (I made it clear (or at least I thought I did) when I first came in that it was about the warranty and he wrote it on the service requested form). I can see his point of view and I think he could see mine. In the end he decided to refund me half of what I paid which I think was about fair.

It's a bit of a shame really because I think they would've been a good dealer/mechanic (he seemed genuine) but they didn't quite do what I asked for and tried to charge me through the teeth for it. Oh well, I don't think the mechanic ever wants to see me again (alive at least)...

[MSTRS]

Clicking is NOT normal. It is what chains tend to do when they are past it. No amount of lube will change that.

The reason for the clicking is usually a semi-seized link pin. Slowly rotate your rear wheel and closely examine the way the links lay in the free chain between the sprockets. I will almost guarantee that you will see a pair of linkplates raised into a peak above/below the rest of the chain.

[Kwaka14]

The reason for the clicking is usually a semi-seized link pin. Slowly rotate your rear wheel and closely examine the way the links lay in the free chain between the sprockets. I will almost guarantee that you will see a pair of linkplates raised into a peak above/below the rest of the chain.

I fully agree with this if it only happens once in a rotation of the chain (actually twice, once as the link hits the rear sprocket and once as it hits the front). If its on every link then I would check that the chain pitch matches the sprocket - I'd also check chain alignment (sight along the chain to see if there is a curve in the top of it side to side, if thats the case then align it). You could also check that the front sprocket is still in place correctly (ie. the locking collar hasn't come adrift) and its not touching anything). I imagine though a mechanic would have (should have) verified this anyway.

[MSTRS]

The teeth are really good, only a tiny bit of wear on the side of each sprocket is visible....

Wear on the side/s of sprockets can be a sign that they are out of line. The chain should be sitting with them both in the middle of it's width.
Out of line could be caused by a (missing) spacer or badly aligned rear axle.

[Conquiztador]

Ticking from chain at front: Worn chain, wrong width chain, missing spacer behind front sprocket (sprocket too close to casing)

Tight/loose spot in chain when going round: Wheel bearing, shaft bearing (lets hope not!!!), sprocket not symmetrical, loose sprocket mounting bolts, worn chain.

My recommendation: Forget about warranty. Buy a quality chain, learn how to fit it your self (not that hard!), check that what I mentioned above is OK, adjust to spec. Ride approx 500km's and re adjust. Grease on regular basis and you be away.

Good Luck.

P.S. I still think my shaft beats a chain anyday!

[Jantar]

Chain and sprockets need replacing, and I would be very suprised if these are covered by warranty. The fact that the bike has only travelled 5000 km does not matter, a chain can be ruined in less than 1 km if it is over tight, or picks up something between the chain and sprocket, or is misaligned. Once the chain is damaged, the sprockets will last another few minutes before they are also due for replacement.

I have had chains last less than 3000 km, and as much as 56000 km. My average chain life is 24000 km and I use a Scottoiler.

[MSTRS]

P.S. I still think my shaft beats a chain anyday!

I'm struggling with the concept that anyone would want to use their shaft to beat a chain.
Foreigners, eh?
:innocent:

[Conquiztador]

I'm struggling with the concept that anyone would want to use their shaft to beat a chain.
Foreigners, eh?
:innocent:

Only the ones of us with a big shaft knows the satisfaction this gives.:apumpin: