Cool pro-biking article in the NZ Herald

[MarkH]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10678160

Second half of the article takes up issue with some of the new rules for motorcyclists - good to see some pro-biker sentiments being expressed IMO.

[rustyrobot]

Nice article, thanks for the link.

This is a bit of a telling comment: "I'm surprised I haven't heard more from a motorcycle lobby group. I'll report back next week."

[Latte]

"as there are now high performance bikes available with a low cc" Mr Joyce said. :nya:



Like the Ninja 250, or the Hyobag ........ ?? Maybe Mr Joyce is reading from the wrong script (one that's 20 years old obviously).

[rustyrobot]

Yeah, back in the day learners were stuck with a rattly old NSR or RGV.

[Scuba_Steve]

your right not too bad at the end there, puts some good points forth.

[george formby]

Nice article, thanks for the link.

This is a bit of a telling comment: "I'm surprised I haven't heard more from a motorcycle lobby group. I'll report back next week."

I was just about to post on this, gazzumped. Where's Mom?

[p.dath]

Sounds like Eric Thompson hasn't done much investigating for his article to me, or failed to consider the big picture.

The desire for the rule change is to bring NZ in-line with the rest of the world. Certainly when you travel to a foreign country you have to abide by those rules, and a failure to abide can cause accidents and fatalities.

But why create such an environment that can causes these accidents and fatalities for no good reason? There is no good reason to maintain the current give way rule.

Once it is changed accidents involving foreign drivers failing to adapt to our rules will clearly be reduced.

Oh, and if it is not obvious, accidents involving NZ drivers in foreign countries are also likely to be reduced since the give way rule they [are about] to use will be the same.

Sure, there will be a short period where increased accidents happen, but the benefit is an overall reduction in accidents.

Changing the give way rule will mean less NZ's get hurt on the road. It's easy to see why.

[george formby]

Sounds like Eric Thompson hasn't done much investigating for his article to me, or failed to consider the big picture.

The desire for the rule change is to bring NZ in-line with the rest of the world. Certainly when you travel to a foreign country you have to abide by those rules, and a failure to abide can cause accidents and fatalities.

But why create such an environment that can causes these accidents and fatalities for no good reason? There is no good reason to maintain the current give way rule.

Once it is changed accidents involving foreign drivers failing to adapt to our rules will clearly be reduced.

Oh, and if it is not obvious, accidents involving NZ drivers in foreign countries are also likely to be reduced since the give way rule they [are about] to use will be the same.

Sure, there will be a short period where increased accidents happen, but the benefit is an overall reduction in accidents.

Changing the give way rule will mean less NZ's get hurt on the road. It's easy to see why.

It's still going to be a case of who blinks first.

[p.dath]

I'm also supportive of over 25 year old learner riders having the same time on a restricted licence as young drivers.

I help out at the NASS training nights. Becoming safe on a motorcycle is about spending time in the saddle, and not the year you were born in.

And I have had this discussion with many new "older" riders, who think their car driving skills and transferable to riding a bike. Most change their mind after they have been riding for a year. The skills for riding a motorcycle are very different. Personally, I think you have to be a *much* better road user to ride a bike safely than what the "average" car driver is - but that is my personal opinion. Your's may be different.

[p.dath]

It's still going to be a case of who blinks first.

I suggest everyone blink normally. All you'll need to do immediately after the rule change is pause for a little bit longer at an intersection rather than immediately asserting your view of who has right away, so you can be confident the other driver is also aware - and using the road in a way that you can stop if the other driver fails to give way when you think they should be.

Not much different to now - I think.

[rie]

My thoughts in a letter I wrote in response:


I am grateful for your comments on the give way rule and the new rules affecting motorcyclists. While motorcycle lobby groups play a significant part in commenting on the powers of the state, it is easy for the mainstream to ignore them. It is as though by claiming: "as motorcyclists, we think..." motorcyclists immediately invite alienation.

But when non-motorcyclist commentators (represented as such, irrespective of whether they ride) reflect on the same issue, it has a profound effect on the way the mainstream public perceives the problem. Minority groups should not require external validation to gain legitimacy, but that is the reality. I am a 24 year old on a high capacity motorcycle and view these unfair changes - to both ACC and road rules - with a sense of deep disappointment; yet powerless because of my youth and minority-status as a rider.

So, thank you.

[nodrog]

Sounds like Eric Thompson hasn't done much investigating for his article to me, or failed to consider the big picture.

The desire for the rule change is to bring NZ in-line with the rest of the world. Certainly when you travel to a foreign country you have to abide by those rules, and a failure to abide can cause accidents and fatalities.

But why create such an environment that can causes these accidents and fatalities for no good reason? There is no good reason to maintain the current give way rule.

Once it is changed accidents involving foreign drivers failing to adapt to our rules will clearly be reduced.

Oh, and if it is not obvious, accidents involving NZ drivers in foreign countries are also likely to be reduced since the give way rule they [are about] to use will be the same.

Sure, there will be a short period where increased accidents happen, but the benefit is an overall reduction in accidents.

Changing the give way rule will mean less NZ's get hurt on the road. It's easy to see why.

While it will reduce the amount of turning accidents, I bet now while waiting in the middle of the road for all traffic to disperse, there will be an increase in nose to tail accidents.

Maybe New Zealand should change to driving on the righthand side of the road too, think of the tourists. :facepalm:

Fanny.

[p.dath]

While it will reduce the amount of turning accidents, I bet now while waiting in the middle of the road for all traffic to disperse, there will be an increase in nose to tail accidents.

As I understand it, councils have already started planning for this. Some roads will need to be modified to make them safer with the addition of a turning bay.

Pretty easy problem to solve.


The other thing is nose to tail accidents don't tend to produce as severe accidents as side impact accidents. You have very little protection between you and the side of your car.

[avgas]

p.dath stop making threads boring.

This one had some real potential for gold.

[Grubber]

Nice article, thanks for the link.

This is a bit of a telling comment: "I'm surprised I haven't heard more from a motorcycle lobby group. I'll report back next week."

Have to agree with this. I've been to the big protests etc and tried to contribute some time to the cause were i am able, but would have to say there is definately a certian lack of noise around the scenes at the moment. Might be just me not paying attention...(:confused:has been known to happen before)but then again it might be because we are taking up the grunger like good little kiwi's that we are.

[SMOKEU]

I'd like to see Mr. Joyce name one new 250cc road bike model that is faster than my 21 year old Honda.

[p.dath]

p.dath stop making threads boring.

This one had some real potential for gold.

If by gold you misleading commentary, sure.

[Latte]

Gold = Entertainment ........ everyone likes to be entertained.

[simpy1]

I'd like to see Mr. Joyce name one new 250cc road bike model that is faster than my 21 year old Honda.

Aprilia RS250? That's probably the only one though! EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong - is it not made anymore?

[R-Soul]

While it will reduce the amount of turning accidents, I bet now while waiting in the middle of the road for all traffic to disperse, there will be an increase in nose to tail accidents.

Maybe New Zealand should change to driving on the righthand side of the road too, think of the tourists. :facepalm:

Fanny.

The law changes now mean that road users just have to be alert and see what is in front of them, and not turn in fornt of moving vehicles. Self preservation usually accouns for them doing this anyway (do you honestly just pull in front of a moving car just because its got its indicator on, or do you wait for it to slow down a bit or even stop first?). The old rules required you to read the mind of the person turning left, to see if they are actually turnng left there, or into the driveway or dairy immediately after, or if they have just left their indicator on.

Any road law that requires mind reading is RUBBISH!

[robo555]

Aprilia RS250? That's probably the only one though! EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong - is it not made anymore?

Not made anymore. There's the RS125.

[nodrog]

Any road law that requires mind reading is RUBBISH!

Heavens forbid that one should be required to use their brain to assess situations whilst driving.

Fanny.

[rickstv]

[QUOTE=p.dath;1129877025]As I understand it, councils have already started planning for this. Some roads will need to be modified to make them safer with the addition of a turning bay.

Pretty easy problem to solve.


I remember a time before the silly new right hand rule came into force (sometime in the 70s I think) if we were on a road with an open road speed limit and wanted to turn right, we had to pull over to the left to allow all traffic to pass before starting the turn.

This prevented nose to tail accidents. I wonder if they will bring that back in?
Rick.

[Subike]

[QUOTE=p.dath;1129877025]As I understand it, councils have already started planning for this. Some roads will need to be modified to make them safer with the addition of a turning bay.

Pretty easy problem to solve.


I remember a time before the silly new right hand rule came into force (sometime in the 70s I think) if we were on a road with an open road speed limit and wanted to turn right, we had to pull over to the left to allow all traffic to pass before starting the turn.

This prevented nose to tail accidents. I wonder if they will bring that back in?
Rick.

I think that any person who exersizes any sort of road sence would being doing this already in open road areas. I have seen tail ender from trucks hitting cars stopped on the centerline to turn, and they are not nice incidents.
Many of us more mature aged people will be welcoming the return to the "new" rule, as we saw its error in the first place, but as usuall the boffins at the top of the heap, dont listen to the workers on the coal face.

[schrodingers cat]

While it will reduce the amount of turning accidents, I bet now while waiting in the middle of the road for all traffic to disperse, there will be an increase in nose to tail accidents.

Maybe New Zealand should change to driving on the righthand side of the road too, think of the tourists. :facepalm:

Fanny.

Those of you who have spent any time in the UK will know that the whole concept of 'paying it forward' applies. I slow, flash and let you across my bow, thereby slowing my progress to a tiny degree because soon - I'll want to turn across you!

The ol kiwi 'fuck you mate' causes sooooooo much congestion on our roads.


Remember the mathmatician a couple of years but that stated the easiest way to keep rush hour motorway traffic running smoother was to REDUCE the speed limit.
Made total sense when he explained it but no-one wanted to try to understand. THe drivers interviewed pretty much said 'I want to be able to drive as fast as I can so I can get there quickly' (To summarise "Me, me, me, fuck you mate."

[Gremlin]

I've stopped letting people in, in a lot of situations... well, attempting to let them in... why? Because I slow, they slow, I slow down more, beep my horn, flash my lights, all the while still slowing down and they still don't get the hint. :facepalm:

Worst is when a car has pulled onto the median strip from a side road, and looking to merge with the lane. Seems like its a big ask to get them to accelerate up to speed, then merge into a gap between vehicles. Same on the flipping motorway onramps. Seriously? How hard is it?

[p.dath]

As I understand it, councils have already started planning for this. Some roads will need to be modified to make them safer with the addition of a turning bay.

Pretty easy problem to solve.


I remember a time before the silly new right hand rule came into force (sometime in the 70s I think) if we were on a road with an open road speed limit and wanted to turn right, we had to pull over to the left to allow all traffic to pass before starting the turn.

This prevented nose to tail accidents. I wonder if they will bring that back in?
Rick.

It is still in the current road code. It never went out.

[Berries]

Those of you who have spent any time in the UK will know that the whole concept of 'paying it forward' applies. I slow, flash and let you across my bow, thereby slowing my progress to a tiny degree because soon - I'll want to turn across you!.
It's just courtesy isn’t it ? You have to do this in the UK so everyone gets along. Over here there are not the same volumes of traffic so it doesn’t happen.


I've stopped letting people in, in a lot of situations... well, attempting to let them in... why? Because I slow, they slow, I slow down more, beep my horn, flash my lights, all the while still slowing down and they still don't get the hint. :facepalm:
Me too. I may leave a gap at the lights to let someone turn across me, but if they sit there and dither they can bollocks. I will wait a couple of seconds while they sit there in la la land then I'm off.

There is no thanks here for being courteous. Think I'll join the FU brigade like everyone else.

[Berries]

It is still in the current road code. It never went out.
It is still there, but the way it is written shows that hogging the centreline is preferred - A driver ............. must move as far as practicable to the right without encroaching on any lanes that are unavailable to the driver with pulling to the left being mentioned as not being in breach of this subclause. it is clear which one is being promoted.

[Luckylegs]

I'm also supportive of over 25 year old learner riders having the same time on a restricted licence as young drivers.

I help out at the NASS training nights. Becoming safe on a motorcycle is about spending time in the saddle, and not the year you were born in.

And I have had this discussion with many new "older" riders, who think their car driving skills and transferable to riding a bike. Most change their mind after they have been riding for a year. The skills for riding a motorcycle are very different. Personally, I think you have to be a *much* better road user to ride a bike safely than what the "average" car driver is - but that is my personal opinion. Your's may be different.

Really? I would have thought the thing that makes me safe on a bike is maturity and being able to 'read' the traffic. Im pretty sure that over 25's are generally more mature than your average spotty teenager and that many years driving gives you some awareness skills (That'll be a quotable quote on this forum, no doubt, but.... I believe true nonetheless). The skills to ride a motorbike are not largely different to that of a car. The mechanics of doing things are different. Whats different (as you note) is the attitide.

...FWIW, I agree with the removal of the over 25 thing for people getting their first lisence and not just an add of class 6 to an existing.

[Katman]

"I'd bet over 80 per cent of the accidents involving motorcycles were caused by a car or truck driver, or something else with a roof."

Sounds like Mr Thompson needs to get a fucking clue.

[p.dath]

Really? I would have thought the thing that makes me safe on a bike is maturity and being able to 'read' the traffic.

The thing is on a bike you have to be much better at reading the traffic - and there are more dangers on a bike, so some things that don't register to car drivers can be very bad for motorcycle riders.

And the problem with most car drivers is they think they are "good" drivers. Easy statistic, 50% of the drivers on the road are average or below average.

[Latte]

Although I definitely believe the older you are the more aware of the dangers etc you are, I don't think an automatic reduction in the Licensing system is appropriate, a couple of years on a smaller bike is probably a good idea, the people that are in a hurry to move up are probably the ones that aren't ready to anyway.

In saying that I benefited from the existing 25+ system, and ride a 100hp+ bike a little over a year after starting my license path. So everything I've said can be treated as bullshit.

[Luckylegs]

The thing is on a bike you have to be much better at reading the traffic

Other than situations like lane splitting (which cars obviously can't do) I cant see why this would be true. I like to avoid having my car (mainly cos its my wifes and she'd be far from impressed) hit just as much as the bike. As a result I find I need to read the traffic just as much in the car, as I do on the bike, as I get just as many numpties pulling into my lane without indicating when Im in the car as I do when on the bike.



- and there are more dangers on a bike, so some things that don't register to car drivers can be very bad for motorcycle riders.

There might be different dangers, and the consequences may be worse but I would disagree that there are more dangers...



And the problem with most car drivers is they think they are "good" drivers. Easy statistic, 50% of the drivers on the road are average or below average.

Yep, maybe. I wonder though, how many of the Average/Below average drivers are becoming motorcyclists. I woulda thunk that the ones who cause us the most grief. Ie the ones who are essentially asleep while driving (or distracted drinking coffee while clipping their toenails and plugging in the iPod at the same time) are probably not going to give up their luxury motoring for smelly, cold, dirty dangerous motorcycle.

...Maybe it all comes back to better training and, just as importantly, assessing skill on an individual basis in real world conditions rather than a one size fits all.

[Luckylegs]

...So everything I've said can be treated as bullshit.

I read it and didnt bother waiting for the permission... :corn:
p/t

[R-Soul]

I've stopped letting people in, in a lot of situations... well, attempting to let them in... why? Because I slow, they slow, I slow down more, beep my horn, flash my lights, all the while still slowing down and they still don't get the hint. :facepalm:

Worst is when a car has pulled onto the median strip from a side road, and looking to merge with the lane. Seems like its a big ask to get them to accelerate up to speed, then merge into a gap between vehicles. Same on the flipping motorway onramps. Seriously? How hard is it?

Well its become alot harder since teh freaking government has put in this stupid traffic lights. Its like the governmnet has no idea that HAVING speed is essential for merging smoothly, so that there is no speed differential. The fact that they have placed those damn traffic lights there means that almost no normal cars can actually get up to motorway speeds by the time they have to merge (without drag racing down the onramp). Most cars are curteous and let other cars go ahead, and speed up slowly, and hit the mortorway merging at 80kph, forcing the motorway users to jam on brakes to let them in. DUMB!

[Gremlin]

Most cars are curteous and let other cars go ahead, and speed up slowly, and hit the mortorway merging at 80kph,
You have better drivers in your part of the city... I've merged onto motorways at 40-50kph stuck behind a car intent on having me killed by another :angry:

I've even had cars behind me (but on the motorway) simply refuse to back off a bit, give a bit of a gap, and come right alongside, blocking my entry to the motorway. Considering I do about 15k a year in and around Auckland City, the stupidity is neverending :facepalm:

[ukusa]

Funny how the govt. can put in such a "complicated" thing such as power to weight ratios when deciding on what bikes a learner can ride, BUT when it came to the ACC levy they put a simple 2 tier system in place. 600cc plus was deemed a big dangerous fast bike, therefore obviously responsible for the majority of accidents.

If "learners" are the most at risk on our roads, shouldn't the learner bikes have the largest ACC portion?

[Latte]

I read it and didnt bother waiting for the permission... :corn:
p/t

I was meaning everything I've said, from the 1st time I said "Da da" as a nipper :crybaby:

But agree with your other post, it's about training and proving you have the skills as an aindividual, not just an abitrary age (or being able to afford the BS driver skill course).

[p.dath]

Funny how the govt. can put in such a "complicated" thing such as power to weight ratios when deciding on what bikes a learner can ride, BUT when it came to the ACC levy they put a simple 2 tier system in place. 600cc plus was deemed a big dangerous fast bike, therefore obviously responsible for the majority of accidents.

If "learners" are the most at risk on our roads, shouldn't the learner bikes have the largest ACC portion?

Careful with those kinds of arguments. We don't want motorcycles being divided and targeted for ACC levies.
We want the original principles of ACC from the Woodhouse report upheld - that the cost be born evenly amongst all community users. As Woodhouse says, you can't different the "cost" of a group if you don't consider the "benefit" that same group offers to the community (which is the true total cost) - and he found that the cost of working this out was so great that it would loose any benefit.

[Pixie]

While it will reduce the amount of turning accidents, I bet now while waiting in the middle of the road for all traffic to disperse, there will be an increase in nose to tail accidents.

Maybe New Zealand should change to driving on the righthand side of the road too, think of the tourists. :facepalm:

Fanny.

Perhaps kiwis will stop driving into stationary objects and pay attention to the road ahead

[p.dath]

Other than situations like lane splitting (which cars obviously can't do) I cant see why this would be true. I like to avoid having my car (mainly cos its my wifes and she'd be far from impressed) hit just as much as the bike. As a result I find I need to read the traffic just as much in the car, as I do on the bike, as I get just as many numpties pulling into my lane without indicating when Im in the car as I do when on the bike.

An examples. Cars can't vary there position greatly in most lanes, especially while cornering. Motorcycles are much narrower and can. So straight away you have a choice of lane position on a bike that doesn't exist in a car.

Another example. Throttle control in a car while cornering is not so crucial. In an automatic you have even less control.
On a motorcycle good throttle control while cornering improves your stability on the bike, and how tight you can make your cornering line (or rather, affects your ability to vary the corner line and make it tighter).

Another example. Car drivers don't need to plan out cornering lines in advance. Most times a car can simply come up to a corner, set their entry speed, and their done.
When your on a motorcycle, especially if there are two or more corners in a row, you really need to be looking ahead to plan out where you want to be on each corner (entry, during and exit).

There are lots of examples like this. The "average" car driving skills will not help someone on a motorcycle in these cases. A lot of the skills do not transfer.



There might be different dangers, and the consequences may be worse but I would disagree that there are more dangers...

Some more examples.

Gravel on the outside or inside of a corner. Doesn't affect most car drivers. Can be very difficult for a motorcycle.

Cars are more visible than motorcycles, simply because of their size. So when your on a motorcycle your more likely to be hit because of this.

If another car runs into you, and comparing the case of you being the driver in the car that gets hit and a rider on a motorbike that gets hit - your probably going to come off worse on a motorcycle.

So I still put forward there are more dangers that are motorcycle specific, and that being able to drive a car does not mean you will be aware of these dangers when you start to ride a motorcycle.


Yep, maybe. I wonder though, how many of the Average/Below average drivers are becoming motorcyclists. I woulda thunk that the ones who cause us the most grief. Ie the ones who are essentially asleep while driving (or distracted drinking coffee while clipping their toenails and plugging in the iPod at the same time) are probably not going to give up their luxury motoring for smelly, cold, dirty dangerous motorcycle.

...Maybe it all comes back to better training and, just as importantly, assessing skill on an individual basis in real world conditions rather than a one size fits all.

I don't consider myself to be a good car driver. In particular, I would like to improve my machine control abilities. Had a look around a while ago, but couldn't really find any car control courses around for road use. And while I can practise things like emergency braking on my motorcycle down my street, cars practising the same thing tend to get "attention" as undesirable.

Anyway I became a rider.

But as for how many below/above average drivers that get into motorcycling - hard to answer that question.

[dipshit]

"I'd bet over 80 per cent of the accidents involving motorcycles were caused by a car or truck driver, or something else with a roof."

Sounds like Mr Thompson needs to get a fucking clue.

Before I even opened that link - I thought I bet that line or something like it will be in there.

Where do we get these clueless idiots from...???

[Luckylegs]

An examples. Cars can't vary there position greatly in most lanes, especially while cornering. Motorcycles are much narrower and can. So straight away you have a choice of lane position on a bike that doesn't exist in a car.

Another example. Throttle control in a car while cornering is not so crucial. In an automatic you have even less control.
On a motorcycle good throttle control while cornering improves your stability on the bike, and how tight you can make your cornering line (or rather, affects your ability to vary the corner line and make it tighter).

Another example. Car drivers don't need to plan out cornering lines in advance. Most times a car can simply come up to a corner, set their entry speed, and their done.
When your on a motorcycle, especially if there are two or more corners in a row, you really need to be looking ahead to plan out where you want to be on each corner (entry, during and exit).

There are lots of examples like this. The "average" car driving skills will not help someone on a motorcycle in these cases. A lot of the skills do not transfer.




Some more examples.

Gravel on the outside or inside of a corner. Doesn't affect most car drivers. Can be very difficult for a motorcycle.

Cars are more visible than motorcycles, simply because of their size. So when your on a motorcycle your more likely to be hit because of this.

If another car runs into you, and comparing the case of you being the driver in the car that gets hit and a rider on a motorbike that gets hit - your probably going to come off worse on a motorcycle.

So I still put forward there are more dangers that are motorcycle specific, and that being able to drive a car does not mean you will be aware of these dangers when you start to ride a motorcycle.



I don't consider myself to be a good car driver. In particular, I would like to improve my machine control abilities. Had a look around a while ago, but couldn't really find any car control courses around for road use. And while I can practise things like emergency braking on my motorcycle down my street, cars practising the same thing tend to get "attention" as undesirable.

Anyway I became a rider.

But as for how many below/above average drivers that get into motorcycling - hard to answer that question.

Cool I'll just agree to disagree and move on to something far more important like a waving thread. :headbang:

[BMWST?]

Changing the give way rule will mean less NZ's get hurt on the road. It's easy to see why.

tell me why.What is illogical about the left turning car giving way to the vehicle coming from the right(like the rest of the give way rule is based on?And to make it even more confusing there will be a different rule where you dont give way to your right in an uncontrolled situation because you are on the through road.
I can see why that will work

[p.dath]

tell me why.What is illogical about the left turning car giving way to the vehicle coming from the right(like the rest of the give way rule is based on?And to make it even more confusing there will be a different rule where you dont give way to your right in an uncontrolled situation because you are on the through road.
I can see why that will work

Let me refer you to my post #7.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/129492-Cool-pro-biking-article-in-the-NZ-Herald?p=1129876991#post1129876991