PDA

View Full Version : Interesting. A mystery explained. 'twas counter steering all the time.



Ixion
8th June 2005, 10:04
For the last few weeks I have been attempting to actually analyse what happens when I corner . Not the "shit oh shit, I'm gonna die" bit, but the actual physics of the bike.

And I think I have an explananation of an old mystery

Many will recall the surveys that indicated that most riders felt more comfortable with left hand corners than right handers. Even in the States, which eliminated camber etc as a reason. Which was puzzling - why were left handers preferred to right handers, which are actually safer ?

Now I have found, that when going round left handers, I totally subconciously and without realising I'm doing it, often gently countersteer.

On a corner, my left hand is on the bars in such a way that the palm of my hand is along the rear of the bar (ie my wrist is pointed down) . And what happens is that I apply an initial lean based on what the corner looks like. But if it turns out to be a bit sharper, or tightening, on a LEFT hander I push on the left bar to countersteer (NB I didn't realise I was doing this, it is completely sub conscious and automatic). Which of course tightens up my line.

But I DON'T do the equivalent on right handers. The reason being, that at the beginning of a corner I usually have the throttle backed well off (cos I've just finished braking, and I'm just holding a steady throttle until the apex). This means that my wrist is actually pointing up. If it weren't when I wrap on the throttle I'd either have to have double jointed wrists , or change the position of my hand on the twist grip.

And because my wrist is pointing up only the thumb and the wrist-ward edge of the palm is behind the bar. And in that position it's not easy to push on the bar. Also pushing on the bar is more dificult because it's likely to make the throttle move .

So on left handers I subconsciously apply countersteer to adjust for the corner. On right handers I don't which means that if I need to adjust in a right hander I have to do it by body movement or hanging off the bike etc, which is a lot more cumbersome than the automatic unrealised counter steering.

This might also partly explain why bikers prefer uphill corners (twistgrip wrapped on, palm at back of bar) over down hills. Though I realise that some (most ? all?) of that is because of weight transfer to the front wheel.

And since the Yanks weren't quite silly enough to move the twistgrip to the left hand side when they buggered up the gear lever and rear brake locations , the effect will, be the same for them .

Which is why I (and perhaps others, including the Yanks) prefer left handers to right handers. Or part of it anyway.

Anyone else notice this phenonomon (sp?). It's really hard to notice , you have to dissect what you are doing through the corner minutely (which is a bit dodgy, I'd normally prefer to actually pay attention to the corner itself! )

I've tried to reposition my right hand further round the bar, but it's too uncomfortable on small throttle opening, and when closing the throttle to change gear. I'd have to move my whole arm and shoulder to get enough forward rotation.

Motu
8th June 2005, 10:25
I think you are right there - I like to keep my throttle hand light because I do some fine adjustments in the corner....another reason the flattrackers and speedway bikes go anticlock? It's most important off road to set the bike up so the bars are unweighted when standing for this same reason,you can't have throttle control if most of your time is spent hanging on tight.

I wonder what the Indian riders have to say about this?

Hitcher
8th June 2005, 10:33
I'm sure there was supposed to be a sea bird in this story somewhere. After all, one good tern deserves another...

zadok
8th June 2005, 10:43
That's an interesting topic you have raised there. I guess we don't really think about how we do what we do, we just do it. I'll try and see if I can analyse it without falling off. The racers among us would be able to give us a good insight into it.

Pixie
8th June 2005, 10:48
For the last few weeks I have been attempting to actually analyse what happens when I corner . Not the "shit oh shit, I'm gonna die" bit, but the actual physics of the bike.

.
Ah, Ixion,my friend.If you manage to make your bike go around corners you counter steer.
see:
http//www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

vifferman
8th June 2005, 10:52
Ah, Ixion,my friend.If you manage to make your bike go around corners you counter steer.
see:
http//www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php
Ummm.. Dude: I think you missed the point.
I thought Ixion was talking about preferential counter-steering: we're naturally better at left-hand corners due to our throttle hand being busy throttling.

R6_kid
8th June 2005, 10:56
with the throttle thing into corners, try putting ur thumb on the switch console, helps to hold ur whole hand steady, sometimes take a little bit of getting used to. Im trying to strengthen my wrist :whistle: so that the said situation is not a problem.

Good point though, i know what you mean :niceone:
and of course being a sub-concious thing, i never thought of it myself!

Pixie
8th June 2005, 10:57
Ummm.. Dude: I think you missed the point.
I thought Ixion was talking about preferential counter-steering: we're naturally better at left-hand corners due to our throttle hand being busy throttling.
Sorry ,You're right Good observation, Ixion
I'm always amazed by the one armed guy who rides the motard,saw him doing a supermoto ,jumps and all

I wonder what riding with a quad's thumb throttle would be like?

Motu
8th June 2005, 11:08
I wonder what riding with a quad's thumb throttle would be like?

Probably why they have a thumb throttle,there is no counter steering on a quad,it's all hard work push pull.

Ixion
8th June 2005, 11:08
Ummm.. Dude: I think you missed the point.
I thought Ixion was talking about preferential counter-steering: we're naturally better at left-hand corners due to our throttle hand being busy throttling.

Yes, just so. I know how to countersteer consciously, if needed. What was interesting was that the hand position on the left hand bar made unconscious but deliberate countersteer easy , whereas the need for throttle twiddling makes it not happen on the right hand

Maybe we should go back to throttle levers ?

Riff Raff
8th June 2005, 11:29
Interesting stuff. It took me a while to get used to right hand cornering when I learned to ride, and I still have more dodgy right hand cornering than left. I know a girl who has been riding now for a couple of years who refuses to turn right because it freaks her out. She will plan a route from A to B with only left handers - even if it means going out of her way to do so. If she goes on rides that take her out of her comfort zone - she goes as a pillion. Many have tried to help, but failed.

Motu
8th June 2005, 11:41
Subconsious countersteering,it's a part of riding - like Ixion I have watched what I am doing an see myself constantly doing subtle countersteering and throttle adjustments.

When my wife was learning to ride my sidecar she had great trouble - she couldn't even get down the drive,she kept spearing into the fence on the right handside.Now a sidecar is set up with the bike leaning out to the right,so she kept trying to countersteer the bike upright again,which meant she turned right all the time.Her countersteering response was so ingrained she couldn't overcome it...just a trick of the mind.

sAsLEX
8th June 2005, 11:56
a point, the bars are joined together are they not? so a push on the right is the same as a pull on the left?! so to increase the ease of rights give the left bar a tug/careful pull.

Another way is to take your left hand out of the situation and ride with just your right for a bit to get used to some pulling and pushing.

Pixie
8th June 2005, 12:06
Probably why they have a thumb throttle,there is no counter steering on a quad,it's all hard work push pull.
I rode one for the first time recently.Had to look after the neighbour's goats(drag the dead ones out of public view)
The quad was so horrible it was like steering a truck,Till I checked the tyre pressures,they wouldn't even register on my digital guage (below 1 psi)
Big improvement with 5 psi in them

justsomeguy
8th June 2005, 12:17
You're spot on with the right corner analogy.

I find it a bit awkward getting my hand "just right" on right hand corners, especially as I usually always am ready to reach for the front brake as I usually always do some amount of very minor braking......and sometimes when you have to accelerate or slow down mid-corner (yes we newbies do that) then it gets a whole lot more awkward...... to make up for this I just hang off the bike a bit more and use more weight on the pegs to balance the loss of countersteering ability from my hand.

But when turning left the left hand has nothing else to do apart from push down for easier countersteering.

Also and I don't know how much of you face this..... I can pretty much choose what line I want and even to quite an extent correct/alter my line in left hand corners but not as much in right hand corners where I tend to drift towards to centerline on the road and sometimes even cross it when riding a bit fast when visibility is good.

vifferman
8th June 2005, 12:29
Interesting stuff. It took me a while to get used to right hand cornering when I learned to ride, and I still have more dodgy right hand cornering than left. I know a girl who has been riding now for a couple of years who refuses to turn right because it freaks her out. She will plan a route from A to B with only left handers - even if it means going out of her way to do so. If she goes on rides that take her out of her comfort zone - she goes as a pillion. Many have tried to help, but failed.
There is possibly another aspect to this.
When doing left-hand corners, you're closer to 'safety' (the verge / footpath / grass, whatever). When you lean, you're leaning away from the traffic. However, on right-hand corners, you're headed towards any oncoming traffic, and you're also leaning your head in towards the vehicles.

I'd never really thoguht about this, until the second or third time I took my wife on the back on the highway, and she asked me to keep further to the left on right-hand corners, as the proximity to oncoming cars was freaking her out!

avgas
8th June 2005, 12:30
For me left handers are easy, for practical reasons (Pin is in right tibia :rofl: ). No but seriously,i have good reason too.
a) foot brake is on the right, so if im leaning in the corner, and i have to apply rear brake.......fear of brake diggin into ground and throwing bike down the road.
b) anyone dropped a bike, and have the exhaust hit you leg
c) rather then overshoot corners, i have a nasty habit of getting to close to the coner, left hand road, no on comming traffic etc

also.....even though we prefer left handers.... and we swear we take more left hand turns then right - anyone else notice that the tire wears evenly on all parts?

chickenfunkstar
8th June 2005, 12:32
That makes a heap of sense when I think about it.
The corners I dislike the most are downhill right handers.
I quite like uphill right handers where the palm of my hand is pointing 'fowards'

I'm usually more confident through left handers, particularly when I can see through the whole corner.

Before reading this, I always put it down to some silly psycological thing about being closer to the edge of the road when taking a left hander.
I.e. I could run wide if i really needed to (never have done, apart from when once I was a noob)

justsomeguy
8th June 2005, 12:54
- anyone else notice that the tire wears evenly on all parts?

Hmmm... I wondered how that happened..........:wait:

TwoSeven
8th June 2005, 13:18
Well, i'd like to agree with the original post as it does sound 'logical' but personally its a case of effect without a related cause.

I'm ambidextrous - I have no preference for corners except that here I like right hand ones and in the middle east I liked left hand corners. I also very seldom ride with both hands on the bars - normally steering by pushing the bar away with the palm of my hand (open face forward palm)

Why - well looking that the profile on my tires shows the right side is twice as worn on left sides (thats the camber effect on me commuting down the same streets every day). 75% of the corners I make every day are right hand corners and 99% of the road is right-camber which would also indicate more wear on one side than the other.

Tire wear doesnt actually have to be visible for it to have an effect. Just a change in the amount of oil in one side will make a difference.

vifferman
8th June 2005, 13:26
also.....even though we prefer left handers.... and we swear we take more left hand turns then right - anyone else notice that the tire wears evenly on all parts?
Um, no.
It's quite common for them to wear more on the right, due, I guess, to the road's camber. I pointed this out to a tyre technician once, and he agreed (that tyres often have more wear on the right). If they are worn evenly, then that's probably an offset between the 'camber thing' and the 'left-hand turn preference thing'. (Then there's the "flat in the middle and thoroughly squared-off' thing, but that's another topic. My tyres are generally more worn on the edges than the middle, due to taking the 'tourist route' as much as possible when commuting. This also is responsible for high drivetrain wear...)

awd
8th June 2005, 13:32
Damn, this will make me think about what I am doing when I ride now, instead of just letting the old cerebellum take care of all the physics. I actually prefer right handers, irrespective of which side of the road I'm riding on. I always thought it was because I am left handed, but maybe there is another explanation to this.

Also, I always put the preference for uphill corners over downhill corners to the fact that you are on a leading throttle instead of a trailing throttle. Changes the dynamics of the bike and its handling traits, as we all know.

Have to engage the brain to find the answer. :ride:

Ixion
8th June 2005, 13:37
Damn, this will make me think about what I am doing when I ride now, instead of just letting the old cerebellum take care of all the physics...
Yeah , you gotta watch it doing that. Couple of times while I was working all that out, I nearly ran right off the road. Thinking "hm, what's actually happening here. Interesting. So this , hm , and that , most interesting - uh what was I doing .. OH FARK THE BLOODY CORNER . I FORGOT ABOUT THAT ! "

It's amazing that one can actually forget that one is half way through negotiating a corner. But I did.

Also amazing how far a BMW can be banked over if you really have to !

HDTboy
8th June 2005, 13:53
I agree with the original post and with SaSlex's post, I'd been thinking along similar lines

John
8th June 2005, 13:57
Good point, I often feel unsettled in right handers - there is one very sharp turn I need to take at speed (90*) and if I take it from the left I love it it feels great, but on the right I always loose the front end, I even have pictures of the tire edge where its broken traction and slid under causing tearing - I always manage to pull the front end back in though, most probably because of the bike being so light, I totally agree - I was playing around with what you exactly said and yup true as buggery!

vifferman
8th June 2005, 14:03
Damn, this will make me think about what I am doing when I ride now, instead of just letting the old cerebellum take care of all the physics. I actually prefer right handers, irrespective of which side of the road I'm riding on. I always thought it was because I am left handed, but maybe there is another explanation to this.
Ooh - I just thought of another thing - many right-handers, especially around town, are cambered the wrong way, which makes cornering potentially more tricky.


Also, I always put the preference for uphill corners over downhill corners to the fact that you are on a leading throttle instead of a trailing throttle. Changes the dynamics of the bike and its handling traits, as we all know.
Yeah, and downhills mean that the bike is tending to run on a bit, making the natural tendency to be wanting to slow it down.
I'm sure the preference is more a psychological thing than a physical thing, but it's complicated, because you need to look at weight distribution, steeering dynamics, perceptions, all sorts of stuff.


Have to engage the brain to find the answer. :ride:
Too hard. :confused:

Incidentally, while we need to think about stuff, particularly when learning, it's actually counter-productive in a way, as we're at our best when we've trained ourselves to ride so that it can be done without too much thought, and are using the right hemisphere of our brains. That 'zoned' feeling we get when we corner "just right" is the right hemisphere in control. It's the same feeling you get when doing other sports, like carving some perfect turns on the ski slopes. It's the same sort of thing when you've learned a musical piece and don't have to consciously think about the notes to play, they just flow. And when you do think about it, you fumble and it all becomes less fluid.

That's part of the reason newbies have trouble - the responses aren't yet automatic, and so they're having to think their way around corners. The rational (left) part of their brain is saying "Too fast! Brake!" and telling them to look at that thing they'll hit if they don't do something quickly.
Once you've learned the feel of the bike, to look through the corner, don't target fixate, get your lines sorted, do you braking before the corner, etc. etc., you're free to think about the road ahead, the next set of corners, what's for lunch, that sort of thing.

Ixion
8th June 2005, 14:04
a point, the bars are joined together are they not? so a push on the right is the same as a pull on the left?! so to increase the ease of rights give the left bar a tug/careful pull.

Another way is to take your left hand out of the situation and ride with just your right for a bit to get used to some pulling and pushing.

yeah, I think you're right, logically anyway.

See, thing is though, all this is totally instinctive. Until I really focused on it I didn't even realise I was countersteering

It's not the initial set up for the corner, which one tends to think about a bit more, it's the subtle adjustments through the corner.

And they are quite instinctive.

And for some reason, for me anyway, pulling the left bar to increase tightness in a right hand corner just doesn't seem instinctive. Instinctively, my mind says that is going to stand the bike up.

Which isn't to say that one cannot train oneself to do it.

Or perhaps the answer is to accept changing the grip on the twistgrip.

Incidentaly I guess this is one reaosn why racers want a forearm parallel to ground riding position.

Ixion
8th June 2005, 14:11
..
Incidentally, while we need to think about stuff, particularly when learning, it's actually counter-productive in a way, as we're at our best when we've trained ourselves to ride so that it can be done without too much thought, and are using the right hemisphere of our brains. That 'zoned' feeling we get when we corner "just right" is the right hemisphere in control. It's the same feeling you get when doing other sports, like carving some perfect turns on the ski slopes. It's the same sort of thing when you've learned a musical piece and don't have to consciously think about the notes to play, they just flow. And when you do think about it, you fumble and it all becomes less fluid.

..

True. Very true. But, over the years one can actually acquire habits that are maybe not bad but are not the best. And train oneself to ride in a fashion that is OK, but not the best possible.

And one then needs to sort out what one is actually doing, so as to UNTRAIN ones brain, to allow it to be RETRAINED in a better way.

Unless one is a Surtees or a Hailwood or a Miller I guess. Then it's trained correctly from the word go.

Incidentally do other folk have the same thing I do. That if I mess things up on one corner and have to scratch round, I'm totally useless for quite a while after that. Seem to drop out of the zone so to speak and can't get back into it.

I've found the best thing is to stop and have a rest. Then often it all sorts itself out again on restarting.

John
8th June 2005, 14:13
Incidentally do other folk have the same thing I do. That if I mess things up on one corner and have to scratch round, I'm totally useless for quite a while after that. Seem to drop out of the zone so to speak and can't get back into it.

I've found the best thing is to stop and have a rest. Then often it all sorts itself out again on restarting.

Think we all do - its called spilling a load in the pants :rofl:
But yea I get that but its mainly when I just about hit a car, then I fall off the pace for the rest of the day, I normally just go home before I funk it up again - its all mental training I just havent got my :mad: controll at bay yet..

NhuanH
8th June 2005, 14:14
I know a girl who has been riding now for a couple of years who refuses to turn right because it freaks her out. She will plan a route from A to B with only left handers - even if it means going out of her way to do so. If she goes on rides that take her out of her comfort zone - she goes as a pillion. Many have tried to help, but failed.
:weird: dat sheet is whack! :weird:

vifferman
8th June 2005, 14:26
True. Very true. But, over the years one can actually acquire habits that are maybe not bad but are not the best. And train oneself to ride in a fashion that is OK, but not the best possible.

And one then needs to sort out what one is actually doing, so as to UNTRAIN ones brain, to allow it to be RETRAINED in a better way.
True. Very true.
I'm sure I have many bad habits. I just hope I'm not beyond unlearning them.

XP@
8th June 2005, 15:54
On sealed roads I have a definate pref for right handers... but on gravel they scare me silly!

I think my natural tendancy is towards right because of my handedness. But when on gravel, going round a blind corner with a very slippery surface and totally off camber overrides my natural pref.

avgas
10th June 2005, 19:16
Also amazing how far a BMW can be banked over if you really have to !
Its funny u mention that, i remember when i first started to learn to lean hard.... and at on point i leaned a bit too far on the ol' TS and had to lift a bit of pressure off the left peg......as it scraped all along the corner folded up - i was so shocked i made that corner at all on that trail bike.
Also had a friend and last time i saw him ride a bike he just about ground his peg off the sidestand of his poor Jawa.
ah, i miss the good simple days - when 100ks was an achevement

Gremlin
10th June 2005, 19:28
well, in a similar vein I figured out today after extensive testing what I was doing wrong when cornering.

When I was going into corners and trying to go a little faster each time (as you do), I couldn't figure out why on earth I could hardly make the corner, especially the right handers.

Then I figured it out. When going round the corners, I was bracing myself too hard with my right hand, hence no turn.

Must test this extensively tomorrow... :Punk:

Jackrat
19th June 2005, 17:09
Ok,I havn,t read the whole thread but I'm still going to put my 5c in anyway.
The left right, which feels the most comfortable is in MHO related more to weather you are left or right handed than any other theroy.
The reason for this,and it's been PROVEN during SAR exersizes and in armed forces exersizes on a regular basis,is that we all have a natural bias depending on weather we are left or right handed,IE a person that is right handed will walk in left handed circles if lost in the bush,a left handed person will walk in right handed circles.
Your natural bias can be countered with both awareness and training.
In my own case as with most of us,I'm right handed so I find right hand corners harder than lefts.Being aware of this bias thing I just make my self apply more counter steering and more lean into rights than I would lefts.
Lefts come naturaly,rights just need a bit more consious effort.
I find the key to be "consious effort" IE,we have to know about our own personal bias and be able to consiously counter it with the application of counter steering and looking to where we want to go in a far more consious way than if we were entering a left hander that just seems to happen more naturaly due to our personal bias.
Anyway If you don't belive me,look it up on a survival site, or better still blind fold yourself an see how far you can walk in a straight line down a footy feild.You won't get half way before walking over the side line.
Try it,it's freaky shit. :yes:

Motu
19th June 2005, 19:40
Just waiting for some tosser to pipe up and say - ''I'm ambedextrous!'' ...no you're not,you've trained youself,or had someone else (teacher) to use the other hand.

TwoSeven
20th June 2005, 12:08
Oh, no - sounds like bollux is about to be sprouted.

avgas
4th July 2005, 11:03
Just waiting for some tosser to pipe up and say - ''I'm ambedextrous!'' ...no you're not,you've trained youself,or had someone else (teacher) to use the other hand.
Actually its really easy to become ambedextrous in this world........name one thing that is designed only for left hands? I actually piss alot of people off, cos they try and catch me off guard (eg throwing and catching a ball, tennis etc) and in most of these cases im right handed. For some fucked up reason i only seem to write with my left hand..........mabey my kindie teacher was evil or something.
My poor grandma tried desparately in vain to get me to eat left-handed, think it drove her slightly insane the fact i wrote with one hand and ate with the other.

justsomeguy
4th July 2005, 11:18
Actually its really easy to become ambedextrous in this world........name one thing that is designed only for left hands? I actually piss alot of people off, cos they try and catch me off guard (eg throwing and catching a ball, tennis etc) and in most of these cases im right handed. For some fucked up reason i only seem to write with my left hand..........mabey my kindie teacher was evil or something.
My poor grandma tried desparately in vain to get me to eat left-handed, think it drove her slightly insane the fact i wrote with one hand and ate with the other.

One of my best mates is the same - writes with his left - does lots of other stuff with his right.......

Motu
4th July 2005, 12:41
True handedness will show itself somehow - the righthanded stuff is taught...or self taught.Paul McCartney I think only plays guitar lefthanded,but he comes from an era where they were made to be right handed.I eat fork or spoon in the left hand,that's because a table is layed with fork on the left,spoon on right....so I changed the spoon over,not the fork.My family has a 50% handed split - even with the daughters boyfriends in the mix we still have the same amount of lefties.A look at our guitar collection will show there are lefties around - I play the sax because it's almost a natural for left handed playing,it just feels right.I'm glad I don't have a clutch on the right,being lefthanded gives you good clutch control.....maybe that's why I'm not a hot braker?

Ixion
4th July 2005, 12:47
I do some stuff left handed, some stuff right handed. But the stuff I do left handed I can't do right handed and vice versa.And sometinmes I get confused and start doing something with one "handedness", am very clumsy and change to the other 'handedness" and am better.

I write right handed , eat left handed , drink right handed, mouse left handed. tis all a greta mystery.

Motu
4th July 2005, 13:13
Yeah,let's highjack Ixions thread! It's all to do with training,and we get confused with what we are supposed to and what we want to do.I have great diificulty with sissors - as a little guy in the primers I remember getting upset and really doubting my sanity and place in this world...not the sort of thing a 6 year old should really be dealing with.I couldn't work the crappy little sissors they gave us to cut shapes and stuff out of cardboard....but the kid next to me had really sharp sissors that worked perfectly....so when he wasn't looking I'd swap sissors,only to find they were no good either!! When I got older and we could write with a fountain pen it was disaster! No wonder I dreaded school.

So I'm a grup now....and I can buy my own lefthanded sissors - but they don't work!! :oi-grr: I've spent so many years training myself to work righthanded sissors I can't work lefthanded ones - oh,it's a cruel world eh?

froggyfrenchman
8th August 2005, 20:25
wow! thats so true!

cowpoos
21st September 2005, 11:20
The Bad Side - Lefts or Rights?
There are technical points concerning a rider's fear of making either right or left hand turns. Many riders have this fear and it's frustrating. Scores of riders have complained to me about this with a sheepish sort of approach and "admitted" they were perplexed by it. Rightfully so, roughly 50% of their turns were being hampered by an unknown, un-categorized, seemingly unapproachable fear having no apparent source and no apparent reasoning behind it. Out of desperation for an answer riders have blamed their inability on being right or left handed, mysterious brain malfunctions and a host of other equally dead end "nonsense solutions"; nonsense because none of them answered their questions or addressed the hesitance, uncertainty and fear. Having a fear of right turns would be the worst if you lived in Kansas or Nebraska where practically the only turns worth the title are freeway on and off ramps. If you went "ramping" with your friends, "doing the cloverleaf", round and round, you'd be at the back of the pack . Anxiety on lefts would exclude you from the dirt track racing business for sure but mainly we are talking about day to day riding and any such apprehension as this (and there are others) spoils a rider's confidence, making him somewhat gun shy. There are actually three reasons why you could have this unidirectional phobia (fear) and all three contain an inordinate amount of some emotional response that runs from suspicion and distrust to mild panic and a dose of plain old anxiety dropped into the middle for good measure. By the way, if you consider yourself in this category of rider, count your blessings, many riders have bi-directional phobia and it's only by their force of will and love of freedom that they persist in their riding at all!
First Reason
Reason number one for this fear is that you crashed on the right or left at sometime and the relatively indelible mental scar is still on the mend but remains a more or less hidden and nagging source of irritation. The part of the mind that is concerned with survival does not easily forget and the proof is that our species still exists.
There have no doubt been other more pressing problems along the way that have tried and tested Man in his effort to put order into his environment. The fact that the incident of a crash drops down to an obscure sub-level of awareness is not a help in this, or perhaps any other case, as it can affect our riding from there and can add an unpredictable element to our riding.
You may gain some control over this with practice but the oddest part of it is that if one hasn't ridden for a while this apprehension of turning right or left can return in force... provided it springs from this particular source. In the technology of the mind and according to the discipline of Dianetics, these incidents are stored in what is called the Reactive Mind, for the obvious reason that one finds himself reacting to, rather than being co-active with, some circumstance. In this case, right or left turns.
Second Reason
In the discipline of riding technology we have the act and activity of counter-steering to contend with. Here a rider may have become confused, in a panic of some sort, and gone back to another variety of "survival response" that pressed him into turning the bike's bars in the direction he wanted to go rather than doing the correct (and backwards from other vehicle's steering) action of counter-steering. That instant of confusion has stopped many riders cold in their tracks, never to twist their wrist again and pleasure themselves with motorcycle riding.
Turn left to go right push the right bar to go right, its the thing that eludes us in that panic situation (statistically) more commonly than anything save only the overuse and locking of the rear brake.
When you dissect this confusion regarding the counter-steering process you see that it is possibly more devastating than the rear end lock up, even though both have the same result, the bike goes straight, and often straight into that which we were trying to avoid. Basics prevail--You can only do two things on a motorcycle, change its speed and change its direction. Confusion on counter-steering locks up the individual's senses tighter than a transmission run without oil and reduces those two necessary control factors down to one...A bad deal in anyone's book.
Third Reason
The third possible reason for being irrational about rights and lefts is the one that has solved it more often than not--practice. Applying the drill sergeant's viewpoint of repeatedly training the rider to practice and eventually master the maneuver is a very practical solution. I suppose this one falls under the heading of the discipline of rider dynamics. And a casual inspection of riders will show you the following: Ninety-five percent of all riders push the bike down and away from their body to initiate a turn or steering action, especially when attempting to do it rapidly. Rapidly meaning something on the order of how fast you would have to turn your bike if someone stopped quickly in front of you and you wanted to simply ride around them; or avoid a pothole or a rock or any obstacle.
For example, a muffler falls off the car in front on the freeway at 60 mph, that's eighty-eight feet per second of headway you are making down the road. Despite the fact you've left a generous forty feet between you and the car, that translates into one half second to get the bike's direction diverted, including your reaction time to begin the steering process. We're talking about a couple of tenths of a second here--right now.
This procedure riders have of pushing the bike down and away from themselves to steer it seems like an automatic response and is most probably an attempt to keep oneself in the normally correct relationship to the planet and its gravity, namely, vertically oriented or perpendicular to the ground. This is a good idea for walking, sitting and standing--but not for riding. When you stay "on top" of the bike, pushing it under and away, you actually commit a number of riding dynamics sins. The first of which is the bad passenger syndrome."
Bad Passenger
Bad passengers lean the wrong way on the bike. They position themselves in perfect discord--counter to your intended lean, steering and cornering sensibilities. So do you when you push the bike away from yourself, or hold your body rigidly upright on the bike--very stately looking, very cool but ultimately it's an inefficient rider position. The most usual solution to a bad passenger's efforts to go against the bike's cornering lean angle is brow beating them and threaten "no more rides." But how do you fix this tendency in yourself?
A bad passenger makes you correct your steering and eventually become wary of their actions and the bike's response to them. This ultimately leads to becoming tense on the bike while in turns. Pushing the bike away from yourself or sitting rigidly upright while riding solo has the same effect.
Hung Off Upright
Hang off style riders don't think this applies to them but it does. Many riders are still pushing the bike under themselves while hung off. Look through some race photos especially on the club and national level and you will easily see that some are still trying to be bad passengers on their own bike and countering the benefits of the hung position by trying to remain upright through the corners.
A rider's hung-off style may have more to do with his ability to be comfortable with the lean of the bike, and go with it, than anything else. This is not to say there is only one way to sit on a bike, in any style of riding. But it does mean that each rider must find his own way of agreeing with his bike's dynamics and remain in good perspective to the road. And this doesn't mean that you always have to have your head and eyes parallel with the horizon as some riders claim. But it does mean that you may have to push yourself to get out of the "man is an upright beast" mode of thinking and ride with the bike, not against it. It may feel awkward at first but it's the only way to be "in-unit" with the bike. On a professional level most riders do this. John Kocinski is an example of someone in perfect harmony with his machine and Mick Doohan has modified his sit-up push-it-under style of riding over the past couple of years to one that is more in line with the bike.
Show and Tell
If you have a rider (or yourself) do a quick flick, side to side, steering maneuver in a parking lot you'll clearly observe them jerking and stuffing the bike underneath themselves in an effort to overwhelm it with good intentions and brute force rather than using correct, effective and efficient steering technique.

cowpoos
21st September 2005, 11:21
There are other steering quirks you may observe while having someone do this simple show-and-tell parking lot drills. For example, some riders have a sudden hitch that comes at the end of the steering when they have leaned it over as far as they dare. It's a kind of jerking motion initiated from their rigid upper body.
You may see an exaggerated movement at the hips; that's another variation of their attempt to keep the back erect. Also, look for no movement of the head or extreme movement of it to keep the head erect. A general tenseness of the whole body is common as is lots of side to side motion of the bike. So what's the right thing to do here?
Good Passenger
What does a good passenger do? NOTHING. They just sit there and enjoy the ride, practically limp on the saddle. The bike leans over and so does the passenger. Which scenario agrees with motorcycle design: weight on top that is moving or weight that is stable and tracking with it? Motorcycles respond best to a positive and sure hand that does the least amount of changing. You, as a rider, need to do the same thing, basically, NOTHING. Holding your body upright is not doing nothing it is doing something. It is an action you initiate, a tenseness you provide and it is in opposition to the bike's intended design--what it likes.
More Lean
There is another technical point here. The more you stay erect and try to push the bike down and away (motocross style riding) the more leaned over you must be to get through the turn. That's a fact. Crotch rocket jockeys hang off their bikes for show but the pros do it to lean their bikes over less. You can counter this adverse affect of having to lean more by simply going with the bike while you turn it, in concert with and congruous to its motion, not against it. There is even an outside chance you may find it feels better and improves your control over the bike and reduces the number of mini-actions needed to corner. There is also a good possibility that this will open the door to conquering your directional fear, whichever form it may take.
Diagnosis
Look for one or more of these indications on your "bad" side: 1. The body is stiff or tense while making turns on the side you don't like, at least more so than on the side you do like. 2. You don't allow your body to go with the bike's lean on side: You are fighting it and it is fighting you. 3. The effort to remain perfectly vertical is greater on your bad side. 4. You will find yourself being less aggressive with the turning process on your bad side. 5. You will find yourself being shortsighted, looking too close to the bike on that shy side. 6. You will find yourself making more steering corrections by trying to "dip" the bike into turns or pressing and releasing the bars several times in each turn. 7. You will notice a tendency to stiff arm the steering. 8. You will notice you are trying to steer the bike with your shoulders rather than you arms.
You might find more symptoms but one or more of the above will be present on your bad side.
Coaching
The very best and simplest way I've found to cure this tendency to push the bike under is to have someone watch you while you do a quick flick, back and forth, steering drill in a parking lot. You have your friend stand at one point and you ride directly away from him or her as though you were weaving cones and then turn around and ride directly back at them weaving as quickly as you feel comfortable and at a speed you like, usually second gear. In that way your coach is able to see you either going with the bike at each steering change or they will see you and the bike crisscrossing back and forth from each other.
As the coach, that's what you are looking for, the bike and the rider doing the same action, the rider's body is leaned over the same as the bike at each and every point from beginning of the steering action to the end. There is no trick to seeing this...it is obvious. For example, when they ride away from you, if you see the mirrors moving closer and further away from the rider's body, they are obviously not moving together. That's pushing the bike under rather than good steering. This is also the time to notice which side is the rider's bad side. The back and forth flicks will be hesitant on one side or the other.
Remedies
The entire purpose of this exercise is to have the rider get in better communication with his machine--going with it not against it--and not treating it as though it were a foreign object that he is wrestling to stay on top of or muscle it down like a rodeo rider. Often, it simply takes a reminder to loosen-up the upper body. Sometimes the rider needs to lean forward and imagine the tank and he are one and the same. On sportbikes, a full crouch over the tank can sometimes be the answer to link the rider with his bike, giving him a ready reference to it's physical attitude in relation to the road.
Making sure the rider has some bend in his elbows while leaning forward slightly seems to help. Having them use palm pressure to steer the bike seems to resolve the tendency to muscle the bike over from side to side. Dropping the elbows so the forearm is more level with the tank makes the steering easier and promotes their going with the bike and takes them away from the stiff armed approach to steering. Reminders to relax the shoulders and let the arms do the work of steering also helps.
End Result
You stop doing the drill when the rider has the feeling he is in better control of the bike, when he has the idea of how easy and how much less effort it takes to steer; or when he feels comfortable with both rights and lefts. There could be other contributing factors like overly worn tires or a bent frame that would bring a genuine and justified anxiety to a right or left turn but I believe the above three reasons cover everything else and if you are anything like the hundreds of riders I've had do the above drill, you could use a little work on this area even if you don't have a bad side. I hope it helps.
ŠKeith Code 1996-1997

cowpoos
21st September 2005, 11:22
this was posted else where on this forum....so its a copy paste job...

Ixion
21st September 2005, 12:26
Very interesting - and I'm certainly not bagging Mr Code.

But I don't think it is relevant to the original post I made - which related to why I was able to take left handers faster than rights.

For several reasons.

First, I've never crashed, left or right. And I can winch the Whale through walking pace figure 8's which is not too bad on something as hulky as a RT BMW.

And thirdly - since I figured out what was happening I have corrected it .Basically , simple enough, because of the angle of my hand on the right bar, caused by having to twist the wrist to keep the throttle open , I couldn't efficiently push on the bar to countersteer. So now I either deliberately take a second grip on the throttle grip to get my wrist at a "can push " angle; or pull on the left bar instead. The latter seems easier to do , and this has had the desired effect. I can get the same degree of turn in left handers as right (both of course still truely Nana'ish I make no claim to be a racer).

It all started because the BMW does not readily fall into corners, it has to be consciuously pushed through them Unlike most of my previous bikes where I could initiate the turn just by shoving my shoulder toward the apex and squinching forward a bit. That works fine on most bikes (including Li'l Ratty , so i don't think it's some arcane phobia I've acquired). Doesn't work on the BMW which is just too big heavy and stately to respond to such gentle hints.