Legality of speed camera position?

[tigertim20]

ok, Ill try to make this breif. A friend bought a new bike today from a place north of here. Him and another guy go up in the car (he intends to ride new bike hoe of course), and i follow on the bike, planning to ride home with him. we get there, the guy in the car heads off home ahead of us, no problems.

On the way home, heading up a looooong steep hill going south towards dunedin, where there is a passing lane that goes for a couple of kays in length the whole way up the hill.
As we are heading Up the hill, about halfway up (passing lanes remember) we notce a speed camera. all good, carry on.

when we got home, the guy who went home early in the car says he got flashed by the camera. bugger.

I have two questions,
firstly, is there any legality of where you can cant put a speed camera?, this camera was about half way up a 2k long, uphill passing lane. is this considered a fair place to put it?

secondly, what happens if there is more than one vehicle in the picture?

Before anyone flames me, No, i dont think he plans to try get off the ticket if he gets issued one. the car is a gutless wee thng, and wouldnt be capable of doing more than about 10km over the limit on that stretch of uphill anyway, so he'll just pay it, it just ade me wonder.
first time Ive seen a speed camera in a passing lane.

[Berries]

Was this in the Merton rest area ? Quite common to see the van parked in there so am always on the lookout when I go past. I have heard that if there are two uphill vehicles in shot they can't identify the speeding vehicle but haven't tested it to see if it is true. That is one of the original sites that used to have the signs, so the fact it was in a passing lane would have been discussed when it was initially approved.

I have noticed over the last few weeks that the camera van is now being used on both sides of the Fairfield bypass. There have to be some safety issues with it parking alongside a motorway, even on the diverge at one of the off ramps. Luckily it is so bloody obvious if you get a ticket you deserve it. Unlike Merton which is hidden until you are right on top of it.

[Virago]

Sounds like the big climb up the "Northern Motorway" to me, by the description of the length of passing lane.

Sadly, they can position speed cameras anywhere they believe motorists are speeding, and this includes passing lanes. Indeed, the fixed camera on Caversham Valley Road in Dunedin was (and may still be) the most prolific in NZ, and that's on a passing lane.

The cameras can be calibrated for multiple lanes, and the photo will be automatically tagged with the relevant details of what lane the offending vehicle is in, and the direction of travel. I've got several photos to confirm it...

Between Mutley and myself, we've had several speed camera tickets on the multi-lane section of Stuart St. Mutley even managed to get two within 10 minutes at one stage...:facepalm:

[pete376403]

I can understand fixed cameras being able to differentiate between lanes, as they are using sensing strips in the road surface, but mobile cameras, don' t they use radar? No way that's going to be able to pick between lanes.

[meteor]

I got one from a camera van too on a passing lane (112k) just passing a large truck & trailer then slowed and popped back into the left lane. See loads of vans on the m/way and the cops with lasers sitting on downhill inclines. So what about road safety then? Wouldn't crash stats tell them where to patrol? Yeah they get some speeders but really, is that the best use of their resources?

[nadroj]

I can understand fixed cameras being able to differentiate between lanes, as they are using sensing strips in the road surface, but mobile cameras, don' t they use radar? No way that's going to be able to pick between lanes.

Distance of returned signal - one lane is further away than the other.......doh.

[pzkpfw]

This is just a guide I guess, but confirms what I read before:

http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/2007/speed-enforcement-guide/index.html


•When speed camera enforcement is taking place in the area of passing lanes, vehicles should not be targeted within 250 (two hundred and fifty) metres of the finish of any passing lane.

I would have thought the idea of this was that people might sometimes be a bit over the limit because they just passed someone, and it would be "unjust" (or rather, upset too many voters) to nick them. I would then have thought this meant it would also apply to people while on the passing lanes themselves.

But then, this is a guide not a law. So they can probably do whatever they want.

Edit: Seems a common kind of question: http://www.aa.co.nz/motoring/tips/ask-jack/advice/Pages/Speed-camera-placement.aspx

[marty]

In the unlikely event there is 2 vehicles 'approaching', then a ticket won't even be issued. The offending vehicle is identified by a 'to' or 'from' tag as the radar knows if it is receiving an increasing or decreasing signal.

I knew that anyway, but I just had the argument with the camera office for shits and giggles ......

[breakaway]

Speed cameras are not about saftey, they are simply about revenue. Think about it - everyone is speeding until they spot the camera and drop anchor, a few get flashed.

[davereid]

Distance of returned signal - one lane is further away than the other.......doh.


Speed cameras using radar, cant tell distance to target.

In fact they dont really know direction, or height either.

They can tell if the vehicle is approaching or travelling away from the radar.

They also use a beam angled across the road. This means they must be parked exactly parallel to the path of the vehicle they are tracking, or cosine errors will inflate (or reduce) the observed speed of the target.

[tigertim20]

Sadly, they can position speed cameras anywhere they believe motorists are speeding, and this includes passing lanes. Indeed, the fixed camera on Caversham Valley Road in Dunedin was (and may still be) the most prolific in NZ, and that's on a passing lane.
true, Id forgotten about that one!! theres also one on the downside, heading south as you get into the 100km area on the right hand side on a pole hidden in the trees, also two lanes each direction. hmmmmThe cameras can be calibrated for multiple lanes, and the photo will be automatically tagged with the relevant details of what lane the offending vehicle is in, and the direction of travel. I've got several photos to confirm it...
lol!
Between Mutley and myself, we've had several speed camera tickets on the multi-lane section of Stuart St. Mutley even managed to get two within 10 minutes at one stage...:facepalm: double lol!


I can understand fixed cameras being able to differentiate between lanes, as they are using sensing strips in the road surface, but mobile cameras, don' t they use radar? No way that's going to be able to pick between lanes.
hmm, good point, anyone?

Speed cameras are not about saftey, they are simply about revenue. Think about it - everyone is speeding until they spot the camera and drop anchor, a few get flashed.

true that. fine issued, no concern about even trying to issue demerits, all about the money.

he doesnt care, he is just going to pay it I think, just thought Id ask as it made e wonder!! now I know thats a common area, ill have to be carefull when heading down that hill. not to worry bout the uphill on the bike though!:innocent:

[Max Preload]

I have two questions,
firstly, is there any legality of where you can cant put a speed camera?, this camera was about half way up a 2k long, uphill passing lane. is this considered a fair place to put it?
They can put them anywhere. When they were introduced we were told they would only be used in 'accident blackspots'. Yeah, right. I don't think anyone with more than half a brain actually believed that though. And no, it's certainly not fair, because the opportunity to pass the dodery old cunt in the hat who was driving at 75km/h before the passing lane, where he immediately sped up to 100km/h, without crossing the centreline comes up so rarely on NZ roads it should be taken with much gusto so as to provide as much opportunity for those following you in the mile-long queue to also pass.


secondly, what happens if there is more than one vehicle in the picture?
That's 3 questions. But if there are 2 vehicles in the same picture from a mobile camera and both vehicles are travelling in the same direction you have grounds to contest a ticket if it's issued as microwave cannot determine where a return signal came from.


Before anyone flames me, No, i dont think he plans to try get off the ticket if he gets issued one. the car is a gutless wee thng, and wouldnt be capable of doing more than about 10km over the limit on that stretch of uphill anyway, so he'll just pay it, it just made me wonder.
first time Ive seen a speed camera in a passing lane.They're in passing lanes all the time. He should contest it - it's mean spirited and contrary to the stated objective of 'road safety' because if you don't pass in passing lanes then you have to cross the centreline, which is inherently more dangerous than exceeding an arbitrary posted speed limit by 20km/h while staying left of the centreline.

[Max Preload]

In fact they dont really know direction, or height either.Well they don't know exact direction (north etc), but they know relative direction (towards or away from the camera microwave) but not true direction.

They've been using one at elevation on the northbound side on the southern motorway at Bairds Road. There's a short uphill driveway that I think services a cell tower that's been utilised as a stealthy position.

[Berries]

They can put them anywhere. When they were introduced we were told they would only be used in 'accident blackspots'. Yeah, right. I don't think anyone with more than half a brain actually believed that though.
When they first went in the sites were selected on the basis of crashes, at least the ones I am aware of down south. That is why signs went up, to let you know that the area did have a crash history and may have a speed camera in it. As soon as the signs were removed that was lost, although new sites still had to be agreed between a group of people, including the AA, and crashes remained a focus. That has now been lost and cameras are appearing where there is little to no crash history but high speeds are recorded.

You can look at that two ways. Not knowing where the cameras are means you might reduce your speed overall and travel within the speed limit, something the authorities will say has happened. Alternatively, you could say it is purely revenue gathering, which is backed up by the fact that for years there have been no demerits given to speed camera tickets, which clearly would have a greater impact on someones behaviour than just a fine.

[ukusa]

I've been in a passing lane behind a ute doing 95 with a cop (dog van) behind me. I didn't overtake for the fear of getting ticketed for maybe doing 111 kph overtaking (as my speedo won't be 100% accurate). BUT, the cop pulled out & passed both of us, and judging by the speed he went past he was going faster than 110. I then overtook as well & settled back down to 105ish. The cop was still steadily increasing his distance in front.
Passing lanes should be able to be used for overtaking. Doing it slowly so as not to go over 100 is not realistic, especially due to the fact that most arseholes that drive at 80 - 90 seem to speed up to 100 - 105 on the passing lanes, then slow down again. Dishing out tickets on passing lanes is simply revenue gathering.
When a Truck is holding up 10 - 15 cars, what's the point of an overtaking lane if through fear of a ticket, only one car gets past the truck on that passing lane?

[davereid]

... for years there have been no demerits given to speed camera tickets, which clearly would have a greater impact on someones behaviour than just a fine.

That of course is about to change. Point to point cameras and camera demerits are on the way.

The challenge for the authorities is demeriting the owner if the driver can't be identified.

I'm sure they wont let a little thing like proving guilt be a barrier to licence removal !

[pzkpfw]

http://ukfrancebikers.com/2010/07/28/speed-cameras-scrapped-in-england-but-reinforced-in-france/


On the grounds that speed cameras have not reduced the number of accidents in the United Kingdom, the Government has decided to reduce its road safety grants to local authorities this year from GBP 77 million to GBP 56 million. As a result, speed cameras across England are being scrapped one after the other. No new speed cameras will be installed in the foreseeable future either, as the new coalition Government has withdrawn funding for them in a view to cutting costs.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-10762590

[Max Preload]

We could have the ones here scrapped if people would stop being so apathetic and cease paying the infringement fees and have their day in court. Overnight the cameras would become a liability to the government rather than an asset.

[JohnJumper]

If there's two people in the photo for mobile cameras you get off. Fixed you still get smacked

[Scuba_Steve]

When they brought speed (s)cams in they went round saying "we won't do passing lanes" "only in black spots" "we wont hide them" etc. etc. etc. To get public support for them & make them seem like they're to do something other than make $$$ but as everyone here knows these "promises" have all gone the way of a politicians promise. So there is no rules round where they're placed. But the whole ticketing process however is Illegal just with the corruption that exists in the "justice" system there is no way to win despite law being on your side.

[marty]

They also use a beam angled across the road. This means they must be parked exactly parallel to the path of the vehicle they are tracking, or cosine errors will inflate (or reduce) the observed speed of the target.

Cosign error is always advantageous to the person being tracked. The van doesn't have to be parked parallel, just the angle of the camera has to be at a predermined angle to traffic flow, and the camera is on an adjustable tripod.

[marty]

They're in passing lanes all the time. He should contest it - it's mean spirited and contrary to the stated objective of 'road safety' because if you don't pass in passing lanes then you have to cross the centreline, which is inherently more dangerous than exceeding an arbitrary posted speed limit by 20km/h while staying left of the centreline.

ALL the time? I got pinged by one (only my second camera snap in 12 years) in a 50k area in Taumaranui, camera van was parked under a 50k sign and I was crossing over a pedestrian crossing outside a school.

So not ALL the time

[Hitcher]

Remember that this is all about road safety, not revenue gathering.

[hayd3n]

http://ukfrancebikers.com/2010/07/28/speed-cameras-scrapped-in-england-but-reinforced-in-france/





http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-10762590

another reason why there are removing them is because everyone is trashing them
http://www.speedcam.co.uk./

[Scuba_Steve]

another reason why there are removing them is because everyone is trashing them
http://www.speedcam.co.uk./

Thats what we need to start doing here.

[scumdog]

Hmm...one camera ticket so far - while pursuing another car.


So no complaints here.

Revenue gathering? - let 'em gather, it won't be my $$....:woohoo:

[davereid]

Cosign error is always advantageous to the person being tracked. The van doesn't have to be parked parallel, just the angle of the camera has to be at a predermined angle to traffic flow, and the camera is on an adjustable tripod.

As you point out, its the angle of the camera to traffic flow.. not the angle of the van. But it still needs to be set accurately.

Its a common error to assume cosine error is always in favour of the driver, and for radar that is pointed directly at the target it is the case.

But I understand that speed cameras slant across the road. So Cosine error for speed camera radar can work against the driver.

This is because the radar is not direct - it is at an angle across the road, and it does not observe the vehicles true velocity. It observes velocity towards the camera, and uses trig (cosine) to determine the actual velocity.

The camera, if pointed more towards the flow of traffic will overestimate speeds. If pointed more across the road it will under-estimate speeds.

Look at it this way.

If the beam is shone directly across the road, vehicles will cross the beam with no velocity towards the camera.

If the beam is shone at 45deg down the road, the cosine of 45 is .707. So a vehicle travelling at 100 km/hr will have a velocity of 70 km/hr towards the camera.

Thus, if the camera is designed to slant across the road, it has to do math, to "see" 70.7 km/hr, but record your speed as 100, as thats your actual speed.

But, if the camera is aligned pointing down the road directly at vehicles, it will see a vehicle doing 70.7 km/hr, and will record 100 km/hr.

[Toaster]

Remember that this is all about road safety, not revenue gathering.

I thought speed camera vans were just funky looking "piggy banks".








On a serious note - under our law a passing lane is not a speeding lane. It is only there to allow vehicles to pass other vehicles travelling under the speed limit.

[scumdog]

That of course is about to change. Point to point cameras and camera demerits are on the way.

The challenge for the authorities is demeriting the owner if the driver can't be identified.

I'm sure they wont let a little thing like proving guilt be a barrier to licence removal !


It works in Queensland......

[miloking]

It works in Queensland......

Correction: Fascist Police state "works" in Queensland! ...coming to NZ city near you soon!

[Max Preload]

Cosine error is always advantageous to the person being tracked.Not true for mobile speed cameras because they have a factor applied as they are intended to work at an angle to the road. Assuming that when correctly set up at the 22½º to the traffic flow direction they give the correct speed, if set up at less than that angle, the reading will be higher. Conversely if set at an angle greater than the correct, the reading will be lower.

[pete376403]

Ok so if you are pinged by a mobile camera is there any way of questioning in court the accuracy or otherwise of the camera angle setup?
ie in the way that calibration certs can be requested for car radar or speedos?

[Max Preload]

Ok so if you are pinged by a mobile camera is there any way of questioning in court the accuracy or otherwise of the camera angle setup?
ie in the way that calibration certs can be requested for car radar or speedos?
Highly unlikely.

[marty]

Not true for mobile speed cameras because they have a factor applied as they are intended to work at an angle to the road. Assuming that when correctly set up at the 22½º to the traffic flow direction they give the correct speed, if set up at less than that angle, the reading will be higher. Conversely if set at an angle greater than the correct, the reading will be lower.

so I say it again - cosign error is always advantageous to the vehicle being tracked. It could possibly be the calculation AFTER the event that disadvantages the tracked vehicle - in the unlikely event that the calculation was incorrectly applied - but the fact still remains, cosign error is still to the tracked vehicle's advantage

[gatch]

[B]On a serious note - under our law a passing lane is not a speeding lane. It is only there to allow vehicles to pass other vehicles travelling under the speed limit.

Yep, I know this much. I got ticketed by a man with a radar gun doing 113 passing a car.

Do'h.

[miloking]

- in the unlikely event that the calculation was incorrectly applied - but the fact still remains, cosign error is still to the tracked vehicle's advantage

In the "unlikely event"...lol you sound like one of those safety videos on the plane, yet planes do crash from time to time and we hear about it, however i havent heard about camera van with incorrect cosine formula applied because nobody cares that "peasants" think(know) its shady business as long as it earns money...

[Max Preload]

so I say it again - cosign error is always advantageous to the vehicle being tracked. It could possibly be the calculation AFTER the event that disadvantages the tracked vehicle - in the unlikely event that the calculation was incorrectly applied - but the fact still remains, cosign error is still to the tracked vehicle's advantageNo, it's not. The calculation is fixed on the angle of 22½º DURING the measurement - it's not applied after. That is to say the unit is calibrated to be correct at an angle of 22½º but the unit may or may not actually be at that angle. And if the angle is shallower then the registered speed is higher because the velocity toward the camera is higher at it's peak (the measured speed changes constantly while the vehicle is tracked, again due to the angle)

And it's COSINE.

[Max Preload]

Think of it this way: if you drove at 100km/h almost directly toward the microwave speed measuring device that is calibrated for you to be driving at a 22½º angle to it, will it indicate higher or lower? Higher of course. That is exactly the same effect as it being misaligned and the beam being directed more parallel to the roadway.

[davereid]

I must write in a bigger crayon so people actually read it ! From pg 2 of this illustrious and misinformed thread..


As you point out, its the angle of the camera to traffic flow.. not the angle of the van. But it still needs to be set accurately.

Its a common error to assume cosine error is always in favour of the driver, and for radar that is pointed directly at the target it is the case.

But I understand that speed cameras slant across the road. So Cosine error for speed camera radar can work against the driver.

This is because the radar is not direct - it is at an angle across the road, and it does not observe the vehicles true velocity. It observes velocity towards the camera, and uses trig (cosine) to determine the actual velocity.

The camera, if pointed more towards the flow of traffic will overestimate speeds. If pointed more across the road it will under-estimate speeds.

Look at it this way.

If the beam is shone directly across the road, vehicles will cross the beam with no velocity towards the camera.

If the beam is shone at 45deg down the road, the cosine of 45 is .707. So a vehicle travelling at 100 km/hr will have a velocity of 70 km/hr towards the camera.

Thus, if the camera is designed to slant across the road, it has to do math, to "see" 70.7 km/hr, but record your speed as 100, as thats your actual speed.

But, if the camera is aligned pointing down the road directly at vehicles, it will see a vehicle doing 70.7 km/hr, and will record 100 km/hr.

[marty]

i know it's cosine. i'd had a long day forgetting to set up 22.5 degrees accurately

[marty]

Think of it this way: if you drove at 100km/h almost directly toward the microwave speed measuring device that is calibrated for you to be driving at a 22½º angle to it, will it indicate higher or lower? Higher of course. That is exactly the same effect as it being misaligned and the beam being directed more parallel to the roadway.

Well the next time you pass a camera van i suggest you stop, get out and say


'CAMERA VAN MAN. NO I SUGGEST YOU TAKE YOUR FLASHING PHOTOGRAPHY EQUIPMENT AND SHOVE THEM UP YOUR ARSE, UNLESS OF COURSE YOU HAVE SET THE COSINE ANGLE CORRECTLY, IN WHICH CASE I WILL CARRY ON MY GOOD WAY MUTTERING TRIGONOMETRY EQUATIONS UNDER MY BREATH AND KNOWING THAT IF I SHOULD EVER BE UNFORTUNATE ENOUGH TO BE THE RECIPIENT OF A SPEEDING CAMERA TICKET, THAT I WILL DEFEND IT TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH ON THE BASIS THAT YOU HAD NOT SET UP YOUR EQUIPMENT TO THE NOMINATED PARAMETERS'

let us know how you get on

[Max Preload]

Well the next time you pass a camera van i suggest you stop, get out and say


'CAMERA VAN MAN. NO I SUGGEST YOU TAKE YOUR FLASHING PHOTOGRAPHY EQUIPMENT AND SHOVE THEM UP YOUR ARSE, UNLESS OF COURSE YOU HAVE SET THE COSINE ANGLE CORRECTLY, IN WHICH CASE I WILL CARRY ON MY GOOD WAY MUTTERING TRIGONOMETRY EQUATIONS UNDER MY BREATH AND KNOWING THAT IF I SHOULD EVER BE UNFORTUNATE ENOUGH TO BE THE RECIPIENT OF A SPEEDING CAMERA TICKET, THAT I WILL DEFEND IT TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH ON THE BASIS THAT YOU HAD NOT SET UP YOUR EQUIPMENT TO THE NOMINATED PARAMETERS'

let us know how you get on

It should be "OI! CAMERA VAN MAN! NOOOOO!".:bleh:

Am I to take it that, despite all efforts to explain the undeniable logic, being that the COSINE effect does not always benefit the vehicle when a fixed factor is applied to a target return for correction to achieve a reading, that you still deny this?

[marie_speeds]

I have a headache now..... Angles, arses, cousins and cameras all very confusing :scratch:

[Max Preload]

I have a headache now..... Angles, arses, cousins and cameras all very confusing :scratch:Don't worry. You just stay in the kitchen dreaming about kittens and looking pretty!:dodge:

[davereid]

Well the next time you pass a camera van i suggest you stop, get out and say 'CAMERA VAN MAN. NO I SUGGEST YOU TAKE YOUR FLASHING PHOTOGRAPHY EQUIPMENT AND SHOVE THEM UP YOUR ARSE, UNLESS OF COURSE YOU HAVE SET THE COSINE ANGLE CORRECTLY, IN WHICH CASE I WILL CARRY ON MY GOOD WAY MUTTERING TRIGONOMETRY EQUATIONS UNDER MY BREATH AND KNOWING THAT IF I SHOULD EVER BE UNFORTUNATE ENOUGH TO BE THE RECIPIENT OF A SPEEDING CAMERA TICKET, THAT I WILL DEFEND IT TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH ON THE BASIS THAT YOU HAD NOT SET UP YOUR EQUIPMENT TO THE NOMINATED PARAMETERS'
let us know how you get on

Seriously Marty,

If you are telling us that mobile speed cameras are not carefully angled down the road because police think cosine error is always in the motorists favour, then police will be paying all the money back...

The maths is correct.

A slant beam camera MUST be carefully setup, with regard to angle or it will either decrease or inflate speeds. Of course, if a record of the camera setup is not made, all tickets issued by that camera will be suspect.

I don't have time now.. but I will calculate an error chart. Is the correct angle supposed to be 22.5deg ? Is that from the roadside ?

[Max Preload]

And here it is graphically.

[Max Preload]

I don't have time now.. but I will calculate an error chart. Is the correct angle supposed to be 22.5deg ? Is that from the roadside ?I believe it is. In which case:
Excel file password for editing is kiwibiker. But you can change the magenta fields without it.

[Pixie]

I got one from a camera van too on a passing lane (112k) just passing a large truck & trailer then slowed and popped back into the left lane. See loads of vans on the m/way and the cops with lasers sitting on downhill inclines. So what about road safety then? Wouldn't crash stats tell them where to patrol? Yeah they get some speeders but really, is that the best use of their resources?

If it makes money it's all good