Pregnant women warned off Te Papa tour

[Genie]

Hey out there....

Just read this article and I'm a bit confused...I do understand the culture signifigance of all of this....where I'm sturuggling is, is this some way of making women second class citizens?

This is an age old way of Maori (correct me if I am wrong), that can be respected....the age old ways of women being second class and subservant to men, whereby men lead the community, have we not moved on from this?

How can the past be relevant in today's society?

It seems as though age old Maori traditions are not moving with society...can today live with yesterday? Society gives us so many contradictions.

I'd kinda like your interpertation of this.....

[rachprice]

link the article?

[mashman]

maybe the staff won't be able to help themselves :shifty:

[Genie]

Yes, well that would help wouldn't it? :lol:

Sorry and thanks Rach...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4221890/Pregnant-women-warned-off-Te-Papa-tour

[rachprice]

I think Te Papa could state that Maori belief indicates that they believe that they shouldn't and explain why, but Te Papa shouldn't be 'opposed' to those wanting to attend anyway

Surprise surprise the feminist goes way over top claiming they suggest its forbidden to menstruate.

[munster]

We could of course argue that woman shouldn't be allowed to vote and can only enter the lounge bar in the pub. After all, this was part of our culture not so long ago.

Most people move on & progress, it dissapoints me to see some using culture as a way to maintain an archaic oppresive practice.

[Mully]

Storm. Teacup.

When I saw that article on Stuff, I nearly died lolling. I spent a very enjoyable lunchbreak reading the comments (there were 160-odd at that point). They're the best bit, cos the PC brigade couldn't decide if they'd side with sexism or racism.

And that feminazi blogger they quoted. Oh, the whole article was like Christmas in my pants.

Superb.

[rachprice]

It isn't saying women cant though, it is saying that while menstruating or pregnant women are hapu, the things in the collection are also Hapu.
I think the idea is that putting two things that are Hapu together might cause conflict between the two

While I don't believe it and dont necessarily agree that they should turn people down, it is fair that they tell people about these beliefs

[Genie]

I think Te Papa could state that Maori belief indicates that they believe that they shouldn't and explain why, but Te Papa shouldn't be 'opposed' to those wanting to attend anyway

Surprise surprise the feminist goes way over top claiming they suggest its forbidden to menstruate.

I'm not sure they need to explain why...I think they are respecting the significance of Maori hertiage, I struggle with how this can fit 'today'. Have we not evolved? We live today, we do not live in yesterday?

[rachprice]

I'm not sure they need to explain why...I think they are respecting the significance of Maori hertiage, I struggle with how this can fit 'today'. Have we not evolved? We live today, we do not live in yesterday?

Many people still have these beliefs

[Mully]

I'm not sure they need to explain why...I think they are respecting the significance of Maori hertiage, I struggle with how this can fit 'today'. Have we not evolved? We live today, we do not live in yesterday?

I put it in the same basket as having respect for religion. I may not be religious, but I don't snigger if I'm in a situation with prayers.

[Genie]

It isn't saying women cant though, it is saying that while menstruating or pregnant women are hapu, the things in the collection are also Hapu.
I think the idea is that putting two things that are Hapu together might cause conflict between the two

While I don't believe it and dont necessarily agree that they should turn people down, it is fair that they tell people about these beliefs

yes.....is the culture significance releveant today? I dont' get it. This seems to be sexiest and racist all in one! It seems as though Te Papa are saying that the other cultures that are the melting pot of society must adhere to this belief....????


So all Chinese/Jewish/Dutch/American/Russian menstrating woman cannot enter ... why?
This is of no significance to her/them - or is it?


Me, I'm a white girl...how Maori feel and believe is not how I feel and believe...yet I must respect their way? Respect their culture...is the respect a two way street.....this just seems wrong. How can they dictate to all women?

This seems unjust...to put all in one basket and say this is how it is when we are all different with different beliefs....

[MSTRS]

Many people still have these beliefs

And some people believe the Earth is flat. Doesn't mean they are right, and certainly doesn't mean that we can't laugh and point...and go on in our own belief that the world is a disc, carried on the backs of 4 elephants, who stand on the shell of a giant space turtle.

FFS. This belief that pregnant or menstruating women are 'tapu' is based on primitive superstition, reasonably common in stone-age peoples, generally for health purposes. How backward does anyone have to be to still give any credence to it's relevance in this day and age?

[rachprice]

And some people believe the Earth is flat. Doesn't mean they are right, and certainly doesn't mean that we can't laugh and point...and go on in our own belief that the world is a disc, carried on the backs of 4 elephants, who stand on the shell of a giant space turtle.

Doesn't mean you cant respect that they believe it

[Genie]

I put it in the same basket as having respect for religion. I may not be religious, but I don't snigger if I'm in a situation with prayers.

Hey, that I get...but Te Papa is open to all paying customers. Te Papa is a public museum, yet they are saying not all public can enter! They are saying if you are pregnant and or menstrating you cannot come in. This is 2010 not 1710, or even 1310!

[scumdog]

And if some woman didn't know she was pregnant when she visited???:blink:

[rachprice]

yes.....is the culture significance releveant today? I dont' get it. This seems to be sexiest and racist all in one! It seems as though Te Papa are saying that the other cultures in are melting pot of society must adhere to this belief....????


So all Chinese/Jewish/Dutch/American/Russian menstrating woman cannot enter ... why?
This is of no significance to her/them - or is it?


Me, I'm a white girl...how Maori feel and believe is not how I feel and believe...yet I must respect their way? Respect their culture...is the respect a two way street.....this just seems wrong. How can they dictate to all women?

This seems unjust...to put all in one basket and say this is how it is when we are all different with different beliefs....

Hmmm I dont understand what is so offensive

Yes when you should respect their way when you are given the priveledge to view a sacred part of their culture.

Like not taking cameras into the buddhist temples or taking your shoes off, just because I don't necessarily believe it (though it is a beautiful religion) I still do it.

It is saying ALL women....Maori and otherwise

[Mully]

Te Papa is a public museum, yet they are saying not all public can enter! They are saying if you are pregnant and or menstrating you cannot come in.

No they aren't.

They are explaining the beliefs of the people to whom these things belonged and requesting that pregnant/menstruating women respect that.

The irony is, if Te Papa didn't make this statement, Hone Harawira and his ilk would be screaming that they weren't respecting the items.

Plus, this is a behind-the-scenes tour in any case. The rest of the museum is open slather for women up the duff.

HOLY EDIT BATMAN: - it's not even for the public. It's for regional museum staff. (and it's up to 351 comments now).

[MadDuck]

And some people believe the Earth is flat.

Are you saying it isnt :shit:

[MSTRS]

The irony is, if Te Papa didn't make this statement, Hone Harawira and his ilk would be screaming that they weren't respecting the items.



How long has Te Papa been open, and other museums before it and elsewhere? Without a peep out of 'that lot'?

[Genie]

Hmmm I dont understand what is so offensive

Yes when you should respect their way when you are given the priveledge to view a sacred part of their culture.

Like not taking cameras into the buddhist temples or taking your shoes off, just because I don't necessarily believe it (though it is a beautiful religion) I still do it.

It is saying ALL women....Maori and otherwise

OH I dont' find it offensive...I'm confused how this can fit with today's society.....

[The Stranger]

Hey out there....

Just read this article and I'm a bit confused...I do understand the culture signifigance of all of this....where I'm sturuggling is, is this some way of making women second class citizens?

This is an age old way of Maori (correct me if I am wrong), that can be respected....the age old ways of women being second class and subservant to men, whereby men lead the community, have we not moved on from this?

How can the past be relevant in today's society?

It seems as though age old Maori traditions are not moving with society...can today live with yesterday? Society gives us so many contradictions.

I'd kinda like your interpertation of this.....

It's "for their own safety."
It's clearly an OSH issue and ranks up there with speeding.

Personally I'm all for it - think of all the ACC claims that will be prevented if women stay home.

[Mully]

How long has Te Papa been open, and other museums before it and elsewhere? Without a peep out of 'that lot'?

Perhaps because no Fairfax "journalist" with nothing better to do got involved and created a non-story?

And I recall many peeps about the shrunken heads that the French (was the the French, or the Poms?) had in their museums until they were returned.

[Genie]

It's "for their own safety."
It's clearly an OSH issue and ranks up there with speeding.

Personally I'm all for it - think of all the ACC claims that will be prevented if women stay home.

What is going to happen????

[rachprice]

I'm confused why people make such a big deal out of being respectful to other peoples cultures and beliefs


Im pulling out early cos I can see this getting out o control :blink:

[davebullet]

Te Papa is on shaky grounds. This is discrimination. Human Rights Commission anyone?

how much of the tour is around these sacred maori objects?

Why put shit into a museum then proceed to restrict who can see it? They should put the sacred objects in a marae and then they've got their own club rules they can apply.

How do they tell whether a woman is menstruating or pregnant? (Ignore the obvously pregnant answer). Is this an honesty system?

Imagine if the role was reversed... Me as a white man put my triumph in Te Papa and said culturally I couldn't let anyone with a maori tattoo in to see it. Would that go down well? I bet I would be had up nationally or internationally on discrimination grounds.

[rie]

OH I dont' find it offensive...I'm confused how this can fit with today's society.....

...yet many Maori live by tikanga just fine and still have their ipods. Since it isn't visible to non-Maori (through a combination of geographical remoteness and wilful blindness) it's convenient to pretend it's just cultural kow-tow Maori people pull out in public places to piss us off.

[davebullet]

I'm confused why people make such a big deal out of being respectful to other peoples cultures and beliefs


Im pulling out early cos I can see this getting out o control :blink:

Already is out of control :yes:

I suppose why put them in a public museum when you can't show 'em to the public?

[The Stranger]

What is going to happen????

FFS, what's happened to the education system in NZ? Surely they taught you that in primary school.

[Grubber]

Me....i think all woman should just stay in the kitchen with thier slippers on and get the bloody dishes done myself. This way we wouldn't have a problem with this sort of thing at all.
No ya place i say.
:scooter:This thing will just not go fast enough>>>>>:scooter::scooter::scooter:

[Swoop]

...but Te Papa is open to all paying customers.
You do not have to pay to enter the museum.

[Bikemad]

think its a load of shite myself............but now understand the link between Maori and takeaways

[Bikemad]

wait for it...........

[Str8 Jacket]

I'm confused why people make such a big deal out of being respectful to other peoples cultures and beliefs


Im pulling out early cos I can see this getting out o control :blink:

I with Rach! It would be offensive if they banned it completely and stopped woman from seeing it. Anyway, I thought a museum was about learning about history and cultures of the past....?

Just not to sure about the pulling out early bit Rach, that's a different therad... :whistle:

[Korumba]

Paul Henry would know what to say about this!


Personally I see it as advising people of the cultural believes and protocol, maybe some respect is needed.

Outside the square...

It would be a bit sad if a number of pregnant women miscarried after a visit to this exhibit...

[Donor]

Well, if construction of the Waikato expressway could be held up for a one eyed taniwha, then closing off a room or two in a museum to women on the blob or carrying a bun in the oven is small fry!

[Virago]

...Surprise surprise the feminist goes way over top claiming they suggest its forbidden to menstruate.

Eh...? That's not what she said.


It's disgusting that in this day and age women can be told they're "forbidden" for menstruating...

[Virago]

Hey, that I get...but Te Papa is open to all paying customers. Te Papa is a public museum, yet they are saying not all public can enter! They are saying if you are pregnant and or menstrating you cannot come in. This is 2010 not 1710, or even 1310!

As the person posting the link to the article, I'm surprised that you haven't actually read it.

This is not a public event - it is for invited museum staff only:


Te Papa's stance opposing pregnant and menstruating staff from joining a tour...
...An invitation for regional museum staff to go on a behind-the-scenes tour of some of Te Papa's collections...

Nowhere - repeat nowhere - does it say "cannot come in".

[Okey Dokey]

I'm staying home and sticking pins in my voodoo doll. That will learn em!

[Berries]

Nice job for the work experience guy checking who can come in. Not quite the same as ripping a ticket in half at Hoyts is it ?

[popelli]

Nowhere - repeat nowhere - does it say "cannot come in".

The inference is there - which amounts to the same thing

Its time NZ and its double standards of racism moved into the 21st century

[marie_speeds]

There was a time when menstruating women were discouraged from the butchers for fear that they would ruin the meat, and were not allowed near sailing ships for fear they'd cause it to sink. These were both "white" superstitions.

[Banditbandit]

And some people believe the Earth is flat.


Are you saying it isnt :shit:

Fortunately for us bike riders, the world is not flat .. it's full of hills and corners ... :yes:

[Virago]

The inference is there - which amounts to the same thing...

I see no inference - just an hysterical twisting of words. Same thing though, eh?


...Its time NZ and its double standards of racism moved into the 21st century

Oh dear. How can this possibly be racist? It is aimed at all women, no race is favoured or disadvantaged by the suggestion. You could argue that it's sexist, but claims of racism are yet another over-reaction.

[Mully]

Why won't somebody think of the children.

Oh, hang on. They kind-of are.

[Banditbandit]

Ata marie āku hoa i tēnei rangi ataahua

Oh dear .. where to start ...


Hey out there....

Just read this article and I'm a bit confused...I do understand the culture signifigance of all of this....where I'm sturuggling is, is this some way of making women second class citizens?

This is an age old way of Maori (correct me if I am wrong), that can be respected....the age old ways of women being second class and subservant to men, whereby men lead the community, have we not moved on from this?

How can the past be relevant in today's society?

This is not making women second-class citizens. You are applying a Pākehā culture-based analysis which is not appropriate. Many of our women do not accept the white middle class versions of feminism and do not apply it to tikanga and kawa.

We have a very different view of the world and how it functions. Would you knowingly expose unborn children to what you thought was a dangerous situation ? Would you knowingly expose women to a dangerous situation which might cause her to become infertile? Would you knowingly expose western art treasures to potential danger ? Would you knowingly expose Christian sacred objects to potential defilement ? I think not. We might see the potential dangers as very different - but to us the dangers exist.

These taonga (treasures) have mauri and mana - they are alive - and need to be trerated with respect or they will become noa and the spiritual forces released for who-knows-what result. We are warning people of dangers we see. If others choose to respect those warnings we thank you. If you do not choose to respect the warnings, we have done our part and our best.


It seems as though age old Maori traditions are not moving with society...can today live with yesterday? Society gives us so many contradictions.

I'd kinda like your interpertation of this.....

It is not up to Pākehā to tell us which parts of our culture we should hold on to and which we should change. Just as it is not up to a Buddhist to tell a Christian which parts of their religion should be changed ..

And we see no contradictions in our worldview. The contradictions are between Pākehā and Māori worldviews ...


I'm not sure they need to explain why...I think they are respecting the significance of Maori hertiage, I struggle with how this can fit 'today'. Have we not evolved? We live today, we do not live in yesterday?

Do we not? A significant group of our society believe that our place in the afterlife has been secured by the violent and painful human sacrifce of a man who was hung on a cross to die in one of the most painful deaths human beings have devised. And they rememebr this by drinking (symbolically) the blood and eating the flesh of that man - every Sunday ... Have we not evolved ?


yes.....is the culture significance releveant today? I dont' get it. This seems to be sexiest and racist all in one! It seems as though Te Papa are saying that the other cultures that are the melting pot of society must adhere to this belief....????


So all Chinese/Jewish/Dutch/American/Russian menstrating woman cannot enter ... why? This is of no significance to her/them - or is it?

They are not saying women can't enter. Te Papa is advising women of our beliefs, ASKING that these be respected and letting them make up their own minds.



Me, I'm a white girl...how Maori feel and believe is not how I feel and believe...yet I must respect their way? Respect their culture...is the respect a two way street.....this just seems wrong. How can they dictate to all women?

As I said, they are not forcing women to follow that belief - they are advising and asking them to respect it - but allowing them to make up their own minds.

And yes, respect is a two-way street. We are forced to function in, and respect, your culture every day. (Yes, we laugh it it - but never where you can see us.)

For instance, when you greet people, do you say Hello and shake their hands ? What if we want to hongi with you - an intimate greeting which breaks down barriers instantly and forms a bond with the person I've just met. How would you feel if I stepped forward to hongi ? Probably, like most Pākehā, you would feel uncomfortable, step back, avoid it. Pākehā are reluctant to hongi except on a marae and then feel uncomfortable about it ... So we are forced to follow your culture in such a simple thing. When we meet in your environment, do you offer us a cup of tea and food? We always would - not matter whether you were Māori or Pākehā. My experience is that Pākehā only do so for important ocassions.

When we are at your house, do you start to clean up a meal and do the dishes while we are still there? I have seen many Pākehā do this - but to us it is a sign that we are to leave. This makes us uncomfortable as many Pākehā make it clear that is not the intention.

When a child is disciplined at school, they are told to stand up straight and look the principal in the eye. To us this is a sign of disrespect as the person standing is in the dominant position and the inferior should never look them straight in the eye as it is a direct challenge.

Such simple things which we see and you do not. Follow through your day and see, in your interactions with others, how much of what you do is based in New ZEaland's western-derived culture and how much you exopect those around you to interact accordiong to those norms. Then you might appreciate respect for another culure.

We respect and function in your culture. We do not see the same in return ... You can say "We did not know" and you did not - but Pākehā have been in this country for 200 years and they have not learnt how to live in this land. On the other hand, every day we are forced to follow your cultural norms.


And some people believe the Earth is flat. Doesn't mean they are right, and certainly doesn't mean that we can't laugh and point...and go on in our own belief that the world is a disc, carried on the backs of 4 elephants, who stand on the shell of a giant space turtle.

FFS. This belief that pregnant or menstruating women are 'tapu' is based on primitive superstition, reasonably common in stone-age peoples, generally for health purposes. How backward does anyone have to be to still give any credence to it's relevance in this day and age?

How backwards is it to give credence to an afterlife secured by painful human sacrifice ?


Hey, that I get...but Te Papa is open to all paying customers. Te Papa is a public museum, yet they are saying not all public can enter! They are saying if you are pregnant and or menstrating you cannot come in. This is 2010 not 1710, or even 1310!

Te Papa is not saying that at all .. the journalist who wrote the piece aimed for an interpretation as you suggest. A skillful piece of sensationalism .. but that is not wehat they are saying at all. A small tour for regional museum staff is not a public event or a ban on the museum as such ...


OH I dont' find it offensive...I'm confused how this can fit with today's society.....

We have no problem seeing it fitting into today's world. This is still Te Ao Mārama ... nothing has changed for us in that respect, except the Pākehā arrived with different ways of doing things and expected us to accept those ways. Some of us do not accept that.


What is going to happen????

Infertility ... still births .. miscarriage .. the defilement of a tapu object.


Te Papa is on shaky grounds. This is discrimination. Human Rights Commission anyone?

Is it ? Have they forbidden it? No. Is it agaist Human Rights to make women sit up stairs in a Synogogue? Is it against Human RIghts for the Catholic Church to forbid women to become priests? I think not - and the same applies ..


how much of the tour is around these sacred maori objects?

Why put shit into a museum then proceed to restrict who can see it? They should put the sacred objects in a marae and then they've got their own club rules they can apply.

There are many objects in museum collections which are not always on public view. Many museums rotate objects between storage areas and viewing areas.

The difference here is that in vieweing areas trhe objects and public are separated by the glass cases the objects are stored in. On this tour people will be in areas where these objects are not protected in such a way.


How do they tell whether a woman is menstruating or pregnant? (Ignore the obvously pregnant answer). Is this an honesty system?

Yes - if you read the article, yes.


Imagine if the role was reversed... Me as a white man put my triumph in Te Papa and said culturally I couldn't let anyone with a maori tattoo in to see it. Would that go down well? I bet I would be had up nationally or internationally on discrimination grounds.

What part of your culture could you point to to say that was the justification for not allowing anyone with a Māori tattoo to see it? If you can (which I doubt) theen of course that would be respected (and laughed at) ...

Generally I am heartened by some of the responses in this forum, and I thank you for those. But I am equally saddened by the tenor of the article adn by the response of some here. We clearly have a long way to go yet.

I mutu ahau ēnei kōrero. Tāku mihi ki a nga tangata ka panui koutou ki kōnei.

Tōku aroha, tōku mihi nui ki a koutou, those you are supportive and those who are trying to learn and understand.

[duckonin]

Doesn't mean you cant respect that they believe it

Should we also respect the fact that 'Whats mine is yours, but what's yours is all mine' Maori believe that to be true..:yes:

[marie_speeds]

Should we also respect the fact that 'Whats mine is yours, but what's yours is all mine' Maori believe that to be true..:yes:

So do wives getting divorced and your point is what exactly?

[rachprice]

Eh...? That's not what she said.

Ah true true...I read it wrong

[duckonin]

Paul Henry would know what to say about this!


Personally I see it as advising people of the cultural believes and protocol, maybe some respect is needed.

Outside the square...


It would be a bit sad if a number of pregnant women miscarried after a visit to this exhibit...
Maybe a new way forward for a cheap abortion..:innocent:

[duckonin]

So do wives getting divorced and your point is what exactly?

You figure it out ! so then u can come up with your own answer to suit your brain.:yes:

[marie_speeds]

You figure it out ! so then u can come up with your own answer to suit your brain.:yes:

What's mine is mine and what's yours is also mine :innocent:

[buffstar]

PC vs PC :facepalm:

gotta respect the whole Maori thing - & yet cant discriminate against women

too funny

[duckonin]

What's mine is mine and what's yours is also mine :innocent:

:yes:Ha ha yep ok,all sounds good..

[Mudfart]

go check out the unusually high number of male genitalia on the carvings at waikato museum, there for all to see, especially the children, who have to pass them to go to the hands on science display room. i can understand fertility worship, blah blah, but these were done for the purpose of shock im sure.
like a certain maori mural that shows a male part entering a female part painted by female crims, in a family meeting room.

[popelli]

Oh dear. How can this possibly be racist? It is aimed at all women, no race is favoured or disadvantaged by the suggestion. You could argue that it's sexist, but claims of racism are yet another over-reaction.

any statement made by a ethnic group delioberately aimed at making members of another ethnic group feel uncomfortable or unwelcome can be viewed as racist

As maori women already know about this it must be inferred that the statement is deliberately aimed at non maori women therefore it should be viewed as being racially motivated with a view to making these people feel unwelcome

[popelli]

Ata marie āku hoa i tēnei rangi ataahua

Oh dear .. where to start ...



This is not making women second-class citizens. You are applying a P***** culture-based analysis which is not appropriate.


well you could start by not insulting non maori by the repetitive use of the word p****a

the literal translation of this is less than polite and many people find your use of it insulting

[Nasty]

any statement made by a ethnic group delioberately aimed at making members of another ethnic group feel uncomfortable or unwelcome can be viewed as racist

As maori women already know about this it must be inferred that the statement is deliberately aimed at non maori women therefore it should be viewed as being racially motivated with a view to making these people feel unwelcome

Your understanding is limited by what? This is not a statement by an "ethnic group delioberately aimed at making members of another ethnic group feel uncomfortable or unwelcome" this is an advisory to woman of the beliefs behind exposure to some items. NOT ALL maori women know EVERYTHING - so inasmuch this is an advisory to them as well.

Personally - don't see it as racist - but it seems that woman are being told of the beliefs around these items - and are able to make their own choices - wow that hurts!

[Nasty]

well you could start by not insulting non maori by the repetitive use of the word p****a

the literal translation of this is less than polite and many people find your use of it insulting

You need to check out your translations better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakeha or even this essay http://www.maorinews.com/writings/papers/other/pakeha.htm.

a little more investigation rather than going only by your knowledge of what others tell you might help. Misinterpretations are easy to understand - but gaining understanding is a little harder.

[Nasty]

just had a interesting discussion here at work - on this topic (believe it or not).

we have agreed that this advisory is similar to "informed consent" - utilised around medical procedures. Once you are informed you can choose to consent or choose to not consent and therefore limit what is being done. In this case - you can choose to go or choose not to go - but at least you are being informed about the choices - and if you feel you are not informed enough - you can ask more questions to gain the information to make a choice.

[marie_speeds]

well you could start by not insulting non maori by the repetitive use of the word p****a

the literal translation of this is less than polite and many people find your use of it insulting

I don't... :violin::violin::violin::violin::violin::violin::v iolin::violin:

[MSTRS]

There was a time when menstruating women were discouraged from the butchers for fear that they would ruin the meat, and were not allowed near sailing ships for fear they'd cause it to sink. These were both "white" superstitions.

Which no-one believes anymore. Because there is no reality behind those particular superstitions.

The thing about superstitions is their origin. ALL of them started out as an event that 'someone' decided occurred because...
Often the outcome was less than desirable, so prohibitions developed to avoid that situation again. Depending on whether there was good reason (ie health related via hygiene), or perhaps just the idea caught in their imaginations, the superstitions became part of a group's culture.

It is a no-no for Maori to sit on a surface where food comes into contact with = health. Bare arses can leave some pretty nasty germs to contaminate what one eats. Still relevant today, even with clothing and (possibly) better medical treatment.

Origin unknown - but walking under a ladder is bad luck = personal safety. That bucket of paint tottering on the top, falls on you. Still relevant today.

Origin unknown - spill some salt on the table? Toss some of it over your shoulder, to keep the Devil away. Yea right.
(I'm guessing someone was attacked whilst eating with their back to a room. It caused them to spill the salt they were using, and they had the brainwave to toss some behind them into the eyes of their attacker. The attacker's sight was affected, and he was able to be over-powered)


Don't walk around a cemetery widdershins, at night. Cross yourself if a black cat walks in front of you. Who knows....

[MSTRS]

How backwards is it to give credence to an afterlife secured by painful human sacrifice ?



Some of the weirdest superstitions come from religion. Of all types.

Someone always had to feed the Tohanga. Because he couldn't touch food with his own hands.

[Banditbandit]

well you could start by not insulting non maori by the repetitive use of the word p****a

the literal translation of this is less than polite and many people find your use of it insulting

Yes, I am aware of some people's interpretation of the word Pākehā. Why are people insulted by the use of a word that means non-Māori New Zealander? Should we therefore be insulted by the word "Māori" which means a Māori New Zealander?

And yes, there are many theories of the origins of this word. But origins of a word are not the same as contemporary usage. Languages change and develop according to how people use a word.

For instance, when I grew up the word "computer" meant something very different to what it does today. Should we therefore stop calling this technological marvel we are all using a computer because that's not what the word means?

"Gay" had a very different meaning when I was growing up ... "Far out ..." an expression common when I was a teenager did not mean a long distance away, as it used to. "Cool" is used in a way that has little to do with temperature.

So languages change and develop and the meaning of words change. Whatever the origins of the word (and I am not an expert and will not argue in favour of one derivation or another) today it indicates a non-Māori New Zealander .. with no insult attached.

We have no objection to being called Māori. This word once meant "ordinary" ... but now it means a people ...

The intended use of the words is not one of insult, but one of indicating a different ethnic/cultural group from us ...

[MSTRS]

The intended use of the words is not one of insult, but one of indicating a different ethnic/cultural group from us ...

Good post. Except this line - doesn't apply to others with dark skin.

[Banditbandit]

go check out the unusually high number of male genitalia on the carvings at waikato museum, there for all to see, especially the children, who have to pass them to go to the hands on science display room. i can understand fertility worship, blah blah, but these were done for the purpose of shock im sure.
like a certain maori mural that shows a male part entering a female part painted by female crims, in a family meeting room.

This has little to do with fertitlity worship or a purpose to shock. The genitalia indicate a human being - carved figures with no genitals are spiritual beings ... (Imagine when the missionaries arrived and promptly chopped off the genitalia from our tipuna figures - instantly turning human beings into Gods ... what a laugh we had ...)

The size of them indicates the potency of the person - and potency not just in fertility terms but also in mana terms .. it may also be related to their fame (or infamy) as a lover - such as Kahungunu, who had many wives and was a reknowned lover ... and frequetly carved with alarge erect penis ... what is carved on a pou for a figure is very much dependent on the story the carver wants to tell ...

There is nothing wrong or shocking about procreation or sex. Ranginui and Papatuanuku and the atua did it - that's how they created the world and us ... it is only western, Christian-influenced, middle class morality that says it is wrong and shocking ... If our spiritual beings indulged in sex why should it be hidden in our culture?

In that western morality cars and bikes become phallic symbols ... in our culture we get to express it openly ... and much more healthily.

And what amuses me most is the Pākehā wearing of Tiki. In one of our stories, Tiki is the creator of human beings, and is the atua of sex - sex for pleasure .. I wonder how many Pākehā wearing tiki know this ...

[Banditbandit]

Good post. Except this line - doesn't apply to others with dark skin.

Yes. That does present us all with a problem.

The problem I see is that as human beings we tend to identify groups as "other" and label them so - even if members of the group we identify do not necessarily identify themselves in that group. The best example of this is the label "Asians". Members of that group may well accept they are "Asians" by virtue of being born in that area - but that's all the word signifies. There are hundreds of ethnic groups within that label - groups with very different cultures and genetic make ups. How misleading can the term "Asian" be?

"Māori" is also a conglomerate label, though with a lot less variance within it than "Asians". Many of us do not like the label "Māori" - prefering an identification with our Iwi.

The term Pākehā was originally intended for people who came from Europe and it still retains some of that flavour. The Treaty of Waitangi is an agreement that allows people from the British Isles to settle in New Zealand. We never invisioned the presence of other groups here.

"Tauiwi" is a term which does encompass non-Euopean origin and European origin New Zealanders - but I think that by the time that word gained credence and acceptance the concept may well be irrelevent as our high rates of intermarriage indicates that we will, at some point in the future, become one people.

We just like sleeping with each other - a natural human occurance - and soon we will all have both Māori and non-Māori ancestors ...

[MSTRS]

Labelling - simply a way of 'understanding' = us/them. That understanding is from the point of view of our own social mores...nothing to do with actually knowing.
European as a label has as much validity as Asian. Take me - I'm predominantly of Scottish extraction. Doesn't make me European - I suppose Caucasian would be more accurate. But since I was born here, to me that makes me New Zealander. I'm not tangata whenua (apparently), but I'm not European either.

[Banditbandit]

Labelling - simply a way of 'understanding' = us/them. That understanding is from the point of view of our own social mores...nothing to do with actually knowing.
European as a label has as much validity as Asian. Take me - I'm predominantly of Scottish extraction. Doesn't make me European - I suppose Caucasian would be more accurate. But since I was born here, to me that makes me New Zealander. I'm not tangata whenua (apparently), but I'm not European either.

The problem with the concept "tangata whenau" is that it makes complete sense within our culture, but not very much sense within Pākehā culture ... (what a problem we create just being human)

Originally "tangata whenua" was applied to the people who where here before the major voyaging waka arrived somewhere around 1000CE to 1200CE ... and I'll bet the newcomers then had issues with it ...

[MSTRS]

... and I'll bet the newcomers then had issues with it ...

And they had a pretty neat way of dealing with the 'problem'...:innocent:

[duckonin]

The problem with the concept "tangata whenau" is that it makes complete sense within our culture
, but not very much sense within Pākehā culture ... (what a problem we create just being human)

Originally "tangata whenua" was applied to the people who where here before the major voyaging waka arrived somewhere around 1000CE to 1200CE ... and I'll bet the newcomers then had issues with it ...

Are you a full blood Maori ?answer no ! so why then do you rabbit on about (our culture 'Maori')? when quite clearly your natural culture would be very divided.:yes:

Or is it that you make a dollar like the rest that associate with a culture that really does not exist anymore, bet this shakes your grass skirt a bit..

[MSTRS]

Are you a full blood Maori ?answer no ! so why then do you rabbit on about (our culture 'Maori')? when quite clearly your natural culture would be very divided.:yes:

Or is it that you make a dollar like the rest that associate with a culture that really does not exist anymore, bet this shakes your grass skirt a bit..

That's a bit harsh. Anyone is free to 'identify' with what they see as their cultural/ethnic heritage.
It is the perceived enforcing of parts of that heritage on others that sticks in the craw of many of those others.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Ata marie āku hoa i tēnei rangi ataahua

We have a very different view of the world and how it functions. Would you knowingly expose unborn children to what you thought was a dangerous situation ? Would you knowingly expose women to a dangerous situation which might cause her to become infertile? Would you knowingly expose western art treasures to potential danger ? Would you knowingly expose Christian sacred objects to potential defilement ? I think not. We might see the potential dangers as very different - but to us the dangers exist.

These taonga (treasures) have mauri and mana - they are alive - and need to be trerated with respect or they will become noa and the spiritual forces released for who-knows-what result. We are warning people of dangers we see. If others choose to respect those warnings we thank you. If you do not choose to respect the warnings, we have done our part and our best.



It is not up to Pākehā to tell us which parts of our culture we should hold on to and which we should change. Just as it is not up to a Buddhist to tell a Christian which parts of their religion should be changed ..

And we see no contradictions in our worldview. The contradictions are between Pākehā and Māori worldviews ...



Do we not? A significant group of our society believe that our place in the afterlife has been secured by the violent and painful human sacrifce of a man who was hung on a cross to die in one of the most painful deaths human beings have devised. And they rememebr this by drinking (symbolically) the blood and eating the flesh of that man - every Sunday ... Have we not evolved ?



They are not saying women can't enter. Te Papa is advising women of our beliefs, ASKING that these be respected and letting them make up their own minds.




As I said, they are not forcing women to follow that belief - they are advising and asking them to respect it - but allowing them to make up their own minds.

And yes, respect is a two-way street. We are forced to function in, and respect, your culture every day. (Yes, we laugh it it - but never where you can see us.)

For instance, when you greet people, do you say Hello and shake their hands ? What if we want to hongi with you - an intimate greeting which breaks down barriers instantly and forms a bond with the person I've just met. How would you feel if I stepped forward to hongi ? Probably, like most Pākehā, you would feel uncomfortable, step back, avoid it. Pākehā are reluctant to hongi except on a marae and then feel uncomfortable about it ... So we are forced to follow your culture in such a simple thing. When we meet in your environment, do you offer us a cup of tea and food? We always would - not matter whether you were Māori or Pākehā. My experience is that Pākehā only do so for important ocassions.

When we are at your house, do you start to clean up a meal and do the dishes while we are still there? I have seen many Pākehā do this - but to us it is a sign that we are to leave. This makes us uncomfortable as many Pākehā make it clear that is not the intention.

When a child is disciplined at school, they are told to stand up straight and look the principal in the eye. To us this is a sign of disrespect as the person standing is in the dominant position and the inferior should never look them straight in the eye as it is a direct challenge.

Such simple things which we see and you do not. Follow through your day and see, in your interactions with others, how much of what you do is based in New ZEaland's western-derived culture and how much you exopect those around you to interact accordiong to those norms. Then you might appreciate respect for another culure.

We respect and function in your culture. We do not see the same in return ... You can say "We did not know" and you did not - but Pākehā have been in this country for 200 years and they have not learnt how to live in this land. On the other hand, every day we are forced to follow your cultural norms.



How backwards is it to give credence to an afterlife secured by painful human sacrifice ?



Te Papa is not saying that at all .. the journalist who wrote the piece aimed for an interpretation as you suggest. A skillful piece of sensationalism .. but that is not wehat they are saying at all. A small tour for regional museum staff is not a public event or a ban on the museum as such ...



We have no problem seeing it fitting into today's world. This is still Te Ao Mārama ... nothing has changed for us in that respect, except the Pākehā arrived with different ways of doing things and expected us to accept those ways. Some of us do not accept that.



Infertility ... still births .. miscarriage .. the defilement of a tapu object.



Is it ? Have they forbidden it? No. Is it agaist Human Rights to make women sit up stairs in a Synogogue? Is it against Human RIghts for the Catholic Church to forbid women to become priests? I think not - and the same applies ..



There are many objects in museum collections which are not always on public view. Many museums rotate objects between storage areas and viewing areas.

The difference here is that in vieweing areas trhe objects and public are separated by the glass cases the objects are stored in. On this tour people will be in areas where these objects are not protected in such a way.



Yes - if you read the article, yes.



What part of your culture could you point to to say that was the justification for not allowing anyone with a Māori tattoo to see it? If you can (which I doubt) theen of course that would be respected (and laughed at) ...

Generally I am heartened by some of the responses in this forum, and I thank you for those. But I am equally saddened by the tenor of the article adn by the response of some here. We clearly have a long way to go yet.

I mutu ahau ēnei kōrero. Tāku mihi ki a nga tangata ka panui koutou ki kōnei.

Tōku aroha, tōku mihi nui ki a koutou, those you are supportive and those who are trying to learn and understand.

Thank you for that. I feel as if I have learned something.

I do not agree with it, but you have clearly, and passionately argued your point.

And since arguing on teh internets is completely pointless, I'll leave it there.

[Banditbandit]

Are you a full blood Maori ?answer no ! so why then do you rabbit on about (our culture 'Maori')? when quite clearly your natural culture would be very divided.:yes:

Or is it that you make a dollar like the rest that associate with a culture that really does not exist anymore, bet this shakes your grass skirt a bit..

"Culture" is a very slippery thing ... and has more to do with behaviour patterns and ways of seeing the world than it does about blood quantum.

All cultures change and develop depending on external and internal factors. My ancestors who came here on the voyaging waka were not Māori - they were Pacific Islanders - and developed a culture here we now call Māori ... and in response to external forces that culture has changed and adapted to the world we now find ourselves in .. just as New Zealand's European-derived cultue has adapted itself to this land, the peoples in it .. and modern technology.

When I grew up, like most New Zealanders, we were not rich and I can remember when we got the first telephone in our house. That caused a culture change - we could talk to people without being face to face with them. Now I carry a very small cellphone - what a massive shift in culture (all our cultures) with just one small device .. and we can all name other things that have changed our cultures - computers, television - passenger jet aircraft ...

Does it mean we should reject all those things to hold onto a "pure" culture? I know some of my friends and colleagues want a "pure culture" ... I argue with them just as much because there is no such thing ...

The question also revolves around the issue of power. Pākehā immigrants tried to make us change our ways - and we were naturally resistant. Just as I am naturally resistant, as a biker, to people trying to tell me how to ride and behave on the roads ... That resistance is a natural human reaction to the unjust exercise of power - and it doesn't matter what ethnic group people belong to .. we are all human beings ...

We do want to try to hold onto our behaviour patterns, values and beliefs - because they make more sense to us - and seem fundamentally more human - than those we see in our Pākehā friends and relations.

(Good try - but I've heard and discussed all these challenges before. It takes more than that to "shake my grass skirt" as you so wrongly put it ...)

Oh .. and yes, our culture does still exist .. maybe what doesn't exist is your perception of what our culture should be ...

[Virago]

Yes, I am aware of some people's interpretation of the word Pākehā. Why are people insulted by the use of a word that means non-Māori New Zealander? Should we therefore be insulted by the word "Māori" which means a Māori New Zealander?

And yes, there are many theories of the origins of this word. But origins of a word are not the same as contemporary usage. Languages change and develop according to how people use a word.

For instance, when I grew up the word "computer" meant something very different to what it does today. Should we therefore stop calling this technological marvel we are all using a computer because that's not what the word means?

"Gay" had a very different meaning when I was growing up ... "Far out ..." an expression common when I was a teenager did not mean a long distance away, as it used to. "Cool" is used in a way that has little to do with temperature.

So languages change and develop and the meaning of words change. Whatever the origins of the word (and I am not an expert and will not argue in favour of one derivation or another) today it indicates a non-Māori New Zealander .. with no insult attached.

We have no objection to being called Māori. This word once meant "ordinary" ... but now it means a people ...

The intended use of the words is not one of insult, but one of indicating a different ethnic/cultural group from us ...

I too am learning a lot from your articulate and reasoned input. Cheers.

[marie_speeds]

In my culture pregnant women are forbidden from grave yards for spiritual reasons, don't want no nasty spirit getting attached to your bub on board and following you home. And whenever anyone leaves the cemetary they are required to wash hands, and once home change clothing. These are just accepted.
Oh and you should see what happens when you touch someone on the head without that person's permission....now that's funny:bash:

[Edbear]

That's a bit harsh. Anyone is free to 'identify' with what they see as their cultural/ethnic heritage.
It is the perceived enforcing of parts of that heritage on others that sticks in the craw of many of those others.

Good point! As a pure-bred New Zealander, of English, Scottish, Danish, Spanish and a touch of Irish heritage, I wonder which ethnicity would be of best advantage to me here and now... :innocent:


In my culture pregnant women are forbidden from grave yards for spiritual reasons, don't want no nasty spirit getting attached to your bub on board and following you home. And whenever anyone leaves the cemetary they are required to wash hands, and once home change clothing. These are just accepted.
Oh and you should see what happens when you touch someone on the head without that person's permission....now that's funny:bash:

How do you feel about these "customs"?

[marie_speeds]

How do you feel about these "customs"?

These are just some of them :shit: sometimes it is very hard knowing/remembering what applies where. Having grown up with them, they become second nature. I am proud of my heritage and proud of my culture. In certain situations, family functions, funerals, weddings etc I often give friends a heads up on what's happening and what to expect. Nobody I know has ever had an issue with following whatever cultural rules I lay down and have always been highly respectful of my culture. I always tell them that after the formalities comes the fun. Friends are always happy to return because they know that is true. I continue with the customs and continue to educate my very "European" children on these customs. One always has to know where one has come from so that one may know exactly where they are going.

[MSTRS]

I agree it is good to know where one comes from. But I reckon it should be so that one can learn from past mistakes and not keep making them...

[avgas]

Yes, I am aware of some people's interpretation of the word Pākehā. Why are people insulted by the use of a word that means non-Māori New Zealander? Should we therefore be insulted by the word "Māori" which means a Māori New Zealander?
Nope but there is that term
natives (one of the more polite ones)

Explain the simple concept.
How come you can call all non-Māori a word in your language, but they can't call you one in theirs?

On another note - tell me the exact meaning of Pākehā.
Are pacific islanders Pākehā?
Are africans Pākehā?
Are people from the congo Pākehā?

If I my Māori great-grandparents left NZ, my grandparents were born in UK, my parents were born in Mexico, and I was born in NZ..... am I Pākehā?

[avgas]

"Tauiwi" is a term which does encompass non-Euopean origin and European origin New Zealanders - but I think that by the time that word gained credence and acceptance the concept may well be irrelevent as our high rates of intermarriage indicates that we will, at some point in the future, become one people.
This is getting closer to what I would like to see.
But what would you call a person, if they were from Aotearoa?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Which no-one believes anymore. Because there is no reality behind those particular superstitions.

The thing about superstitions is their origin. ALL of them started out as an event that 'someone' decided occurred because...
Often the outcome was less than desirable, so prohibitions developed to avoid that situation again. Depending on whether there was good reason (ie health related via hygiene), or perhaps just the idea caught in their imaginations, the superstitions became part of a group's culture.

It is a no-no for Maori to sit on a surface where food comes into contact with = health. Bare arses can leave some pretty nasty germs to contaminate what one eats. Still relevant today, even with clothing and (possibly) better medical treatment.

Origin unknown - but walking under a ladder is bad luck = personal safety. That bucket of paint tottering on the top, falls on you. Still relevant today.

Origin unknown - spill some salt on the table? Toss some of it over your shoulder, to keep the Devil away. Yea right.
(I'm guessing someone was attacked whilst eating with their back to a room. It caused them to spill the salt they were using, and they had the brainwave to toss some behind them into the eyes of their attacker. The attacker's sight was affected, and he was able to be over-powered)


Don't walk around a cemetery widdershins, at night. Cross yourself if a black cat walks in front of you. Who knows....

Trere's my point: (and I think the phrase "those particular superstitions" is a very telling one in this context).

If you let one particular brand or set of superstitious belief in, you have to let them all in: they are all equally incapable of rational explanation.

So, if we have publicly funded institutions not allowing menstruating women to touch their stuff, then we should allow female genital mutilation in the name of religion. And we should allow (nay, encourage) sexual molestation of minors by priests.

So here's what I think: You can, and you should, believe whatever you want to believe: things what go bump in the night, Jeebl died on the cross for your sins, whatever gets you through the night, or day. But if your beliefs or behaviour start negatively impacting others (or are used as instruments of oppression: for example, women, wear a burqua, or no, we dont send the females to school, or we expose them on the hillsides and god sorts them out) then, and only then, can, and should a civil society cry "enough".

And for my money excluding people from a publicly funded institution on this basis is wrong, and should not be tolerated.

Secular humanism all the way: do the right thing not because god told you to, but because its the right thing to do.

[HenryDorsetCase]

This is getting closer to what I would like to see.
But what would you call a person, if they were from Aotearoa?

"Cuz" ??

"Bro" ??

[Edbear]

These are just some of them :shit: sometimes it is very hard knowing/remembering what applies where. Having grown up with them, they become second nature. I am proud of my heritage and proud of my culture. In certain situations, family functions, funerals, weddings etc I often give friends a heads up on what's happening and what to expect. Nobody I know has ever had an issue with following whatever cultural rules I lay down and have always been highly respectful of my culture. I always tell them that after the formalities comes the fun. Friends are always happy to return because they know that is true. I continue with the customs and continue to educate my very "European" children on these customs. One always has to know where one has come from so that one may know exactly where they are going.

I find it interesting how many people are, as you, proud and defensive of their heritage and culture. It appears, from personal observation that this is mainly in non-European races. It seems, in line with that, that most if not all non-European cultures have such "customary" lives. As a Kiwi of no particularly dominant ethnicity I am not concerned so much with my cultural heritage, I'm more concerned with my life now and the future. I guess I haven't got anything worth preserving...

[HenryDorsetCase]

I guess I haven't got anything worth preserving...

Absolutely, completely incorrect.

I am probably of the same ethnic background as you are: mongrel Scots and Irish but third generation new zealander on my fathers side and fifth on my mothers side.

So, "european" heritage: in no order but all important:

The Enlightenment
The Renaissance
Art
Music
Democracy
Germ theory
Science generally and in particular
The SCIENTIFIC METHOD
Agriculture
civil society
Lor
mathematics
literacy, literature and edumacation.


dont EVER acknowledge a cultural cringe because "Oh, I'm just a pakeha": Fuckin A, and we've a lot to be proud of.

(and before anyone else says it: As of course, do other cultures.

[Banditbandit]

Don't walk around a cemetery widdershins, at night. Cross yourself if a black cat walks in front of you. Who knows....

I wonder how many people today (In Godzone, not England) know which direction widdershins is ...

[Number One]

Outside the square...

It would be a bit sad if a number of pregnant women miscarried after a visit to this exhibit...

I'm with you...it would be sad...especially as they would likely be going just to 'make their point' - probably even more likely for bad juju to be going down.

Frankly....you just never know - outdated or not your culture (or whatever)...I wouldn't mess with 'wairua' and if I was pregnant I would be stearing clear....and I'm just Bulgarian!

[HenryDorsetCase]

I wonder how many people today (In Godzone, not England) know which direction widdershins is ...

it's a direction? I thought it was about people with deformed legs!

presumably left wards counter clockwise (on the same basis that sinister is left)

[Maha]

We just like sleeping with each other - a natural human occurance - and soon we will all have both Māori and non-Māori ancestors ...

Ken Mair would argue that point, though he himself is half Irish and during the winter months is whiter than me.
At best, there are only part Maori left living in New Zealand.
I have to tick the European box on voting/census forms, they offer no other option.
But I am fully 100% Kiwi bro.
I have no need to fall back on or claim my Danish great grandfather or British grandfather.
Because I know exactly who I am.

[Banditbandit]

"Cuz" ??

"Bro" ??

Yeah .. that's exactly what I was thinking of repling ..

[Banditbandit]

it's a direction? I thought it was about people with deformed legs!

presumably left wards counter clockwise (on the same basis that sinister is left)

Yeah .. it is counter clockwise ... as in sinister - the Devil's direction (don't ask about word derivations .. but that's where the concept comes from) You don't walk around a cemetrry in the Devil's direction ..

[Banditbandit]

Nope but there is that term
natives (one of the more polite ones)

Explain the simple concept.
How come you can call all non-Māori a word in your language, but they can't call you one in theirs?

Who knows ... people call each other names all the time. I wonder if Māori is a word totally from our language or if it is one word that has become part of New Zealand's English-derived language. You do realise that English is a polyglot language - made up of five major languages and a myriad of smaller ones ...


On another note - tell me the exact meaning of Pākehā.



Few if any words haver exact meanings - it depends on the context the word is used in. It can refer either to a non-Māori New Zealander, or a European-ancestry New Zealander.


Are pacific islanders Pākehā?
Are africans Pākehā?
Are people from the congo Pākehā?

In some contexts, for example a discussion on bi-culturalism, the answer is yes. In other contexts the answer is no. It really depends, as do the meaning of all words, what the speaker is trying to convey to the listener.



If I my Māori great-grandparents left NZ, my grandparents were born in UK, my parents were born in Mexico, and I was born in NZ..... am I Pākehā?

I dunno - How do you see yourself ? You could claim at least two of those Identity positions - probably more. I'd be inclined to say a typically mixed heritage New Zealander.

Identity is both claimed and assigned. I can make a judgement - as most humans do - but I may well be wrong.

(I love Mexican food - how's your cooking skills?)

[Banditbandit]

Absolutely, completely incorrect.

I am probably of the same ethnic background as you are: mongrel Scots and Irish but third generation new zealander on my fathers side and fifth on my mothers side.

So, "european" heritage: in no order but all important:

The Enlightenment
The Renaissance
Art
Music
Democracy
Germ theory
Science generally and in particular
The SCIENTIFIC METHOD
Agriculture
civil society
Lor
mathematics
literacy, literature and edumacation.


dont EVER acknowledge a cultural cringe because "Oh, I'm just a pakeha": Fuckin A, and we've a lot to be proud of.

(and before anyone else says it: As of course, do other cultures.

Absolutely - I was shocked at the sadness of your response Mr Bear ... How dreadful to think that ...

New Zealanders have made a MASSIVE contribution to the world in terms of arts and culture, science, social developments and improvements, medicine, sports, ... on and on ...

And while I might stick my Māori side up front, I have white New Zealand ancestory and relations ... I'm proud of them too ...

[Banditbandit]

Ken Mair would argue that point, though he himself is half Irish and during the winter months is whiter than me.

At best, there are only part Maori left living in New Zealand.

Blood quantum does not matter to us. It only matters to Pākehā to use as a weapon to say that our culture no longer matters because we are no longer a "pure" breed. What is "racial purity"? A concept from Nazi germany ?

We do not exlude people from our groups because they are not "pure". That's a very Pākehā idea as far as I can see.


I have to tick the European box on voting/census forms, they offer no other option.

Yeah .. that bothers most of us too ... it's the wrong word ...


But I am fully 100% Kiwi bro.
I have no need to fall back on or claim my Danish great grandfather or British grandfather.
Because I know exactly who I am.

Good. Excellent. Let us be what we know we are ... why do you trry to tell us that "you are no longer pure so your culture does not matter?

[Banditbandit]

People, it's been an interesting two days in this discussion. I thank you for the support I have recieved in bling and personal messages.

I must leave this now - my wife will be waiting at home so ...

I'm sure there will be lots of discussion over night. I will look in tomorrow.

[Suntoucher]

I personally find it disgusting, not the advisory but the people whining about it. (Probably jumping on the bandwagon too late, 7 pages...)

The museum never banned them, they advised them for their own safety, it's the equivalent of recommending pregnant women not to drink for their own and childs safety.

I'm neither Maori, nor religious of any sort(and usually the first to bitch about compulsory customs/religion/beliefs etc) but it was a tour of Maori Heritage and it's one of their beliefs, much like taking your shoes off walking into a Mosque and it's not compulsory. You don't HAVE to, and they won't tackle you to the ground and forcefully remove them/you from it, they're just advising based on their own beliefs.

Start complaining when they have you sign a form saying you are neither pregnant or menstruating and you may be forcefully evicted if you are. It's not discrimination in the slightest.

Might as well say the donation box out front is discriminating against the poor who can't afford to donate.

Edit: Will start reading the other pages, wouldn't be surprised if this point hasn't already been brought up.

[popelli]

this thread could go on forever

there are definitely 2 distinct schools of thought

neither of which will ever agree

the unfortunate thing is debates like these do not lead to agreement compromise or acceptance of other cultures but to a hardening of attitudes on all sides

in the end the real loser is NZ with a divided society

[candor]

Now I heard this (whether true or not) a long time ago from a Cook Islander in Huntly so some details may be messed up. He told me the tradition started there in the Cooks. Some Chief got a bee in his bonnet because he was losing in fights or battles when normally his spiritual intuition enabled right sensing, predictions of enemy moves and strategy.

He noticed that some woman was sitting on his seat, so blamed the contamination of his usual prowess and winning energy on her reproductive organs more or less draining off so cursing his vitality drawn from ancestors by a sort of transference.

As in she sat there then he did and then he lost a battle so it was her fault.
He then declared his seat tapu and killed her, but then he kind of began adding more and more rules about keeping female reproduction and important persons/things separate based on his bad experience. This resulted in a lot of woman being killed for infringing, as infringing obviously was serious as it puts the tribe at risk for being invaded successfully. This made him quite unpopular so he had to get in a boat several hundred years ago and his beliefs were sown elsewhere...

As the media said dodgy women can still see the exhibit but must please declare their status I wonder if this means that karakia will then be performed after such visits for the womens and weapons benefit? Not sure why else they'd want to know of transgressions.

[HenryDorsetCase]

this thread could go on forever

there are definitely 2 distinct schools of thought

neither of which will ever agree

the unfortunate thing is debates like these do not lead to agreement compromise or acceptance of other cultures but to a hardening of attitudes on all sides

in the end the real loser is NZ with a divided society

actually no, I think dialogue like this means that there is LESS division and eventually, less hatred.

I can be an unsympathetic fucker, but I definitely have learned some stuff reading this thread. Like I said, I'm not sure I will agree or see it, but I think I can respect it.

[Virago]

this thread could go on forever

there are definitely 2 distinct schools of thought

neither of which will ever agree

the unfortunate thing is debates like these do not lead to agreement compromise or acceptance of other cultures but to a hardening of attitudes on all sides

in the end the real loser is NZ with a divided society

I would think society would reject your assertion to speak on its behalf - but your own hardened attitude speaks for itself.

[avgas]

Yeah .. that's exactly what I was thinking of repling ..
lol
6 bro's were killed today in a horrible fire in New York. When the NY authorities notified the family. Members of the family were shocked. The mother of the youngest, repeating "Shut up eh, its not him, its some otha fella aye.."

[avgas]

Yeah .. it is counter clockwise ... as in sinister - the Devil's direction (don't ask about word derivations .. but that's where the concept comes from) You don't walk around a cemetrry in the Devil's direction ..
Or ring bells........but the church seem to fuck that one up frequently.

[Maha]

Good. Excellent. Let us be what we know we are ... why do you trry to tell us that "you are no longer pure so your culture does not matter?

Your intepretation of what I said is faulted....
Lucky I never made you sign anything :facepalm:

[The Stranger]

Hey out there....

Just read this article and I'm a bit confused...I do understand the culture signifigance of all of this....where I'm sturuggling is, is this some way of making women second class citizens?

This is an age old way of Maori (correct me if I am wrong), that can be respected....the age old ways of women being second class and subservant to men, whereby men lead the community, have we not moved on from this?

How can the past be relevant in today's society?

It seems as though age old Maori traditions are not moving with society...can today live with yesterday? Society gives us so many contradictions.

I'd kinda like your interpertation of this.....

Excellent thread here Genie, it's good to see a racism vs sexism thread.
Takes the heat off us white males for a change - go for it, let the blood flow.

[Berries]

go for it, let the blood flow.
Pun intended ?

Actually, I shouldn't joke. I'm an import, moved here 15 years ago from England. I have my own fairly strong views on the way Maori are treated in NZ based on a number of issues which I won't bore you with. But this thread has opened my mind a bit due to a couple of posts from Banditbandit.

Having said that, when my wife has got the painters in I have to go to museums to get out of the house, so may be this is a domestic violence harm reduction policy ? Go ACC:niceone:

[Jantar]

Yeah .. it is counter clockwise ... as in sinister - the Devil's direction (don't ask about word derivations .. but that's where the concept comes from) You don't walk around a cemetrry in the Devil's direction ..
The word sinister comes directly from the Latin word for Left which is "sinister". This word was well before the christian concept of a devil. So maybe you need to revise this derivation?

[avgas]

The word sinister comes directly from the Latin word for Left which is "sinister". This word was well before the christian concept of a devil. So maybe you need to revise this derivation?
lol
we could call him the cack-man?

or goofy?

ahhhhhh being a lefty you get called the most interesting of names.

[Banditbandit]

Your intepretation of what I said is faulted....
Lucky I never made you sign anything :facepalm:

See how easy mis-communication between us is ....

[MSTRS]

See how easy mis-communication between us is ....

And how important the rules of grammar can be...
"Help your Uncle Jack off his horse" is not the same as "Help your Uncle jack off his horse".

[Banditbandit]

The word sinister comes directly from the Latin word for Left which is "sinister". This word was well before the christian concept of a devil. So maybe you need to revise this derivation?

Yes, I knew that much - but didn't want to go into word derivations ... I suspect, but I'm not expert, that left is the Devil's direction - which is why the English word sinister has little to do with left - but now has much to do with something menacing and evil ...

[Banditbandit]

And how important the rules of grammar can be...
"Help your Uncle Jack off his horse" is not the same as "Help your Uncle jack off his horse".

:rofl::rofl::rofl: Excellent example - the meaning is clearer when written - but orally is wide open to misinterpretation ...

Uncle Jack is clearly into equine artificial insemination ...

[MSTRS]

Uncle Jack is clearly into equine artificial insemination ...

No, Uncle Jack is just incapable of getting off dismounting his horse by himself.

[Banditbandit]

No, Uncle Jack is just incapable of getting off dismounting his horse by himself.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

You did not make it clear which statement was true ...

[MSTRS]

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

You did not make it clear which statement was true ...

Did too! No matter how important wanking is, it is never written with a capital 'w' unless starting a sentence...:blink::innocent:

[avgas]

Did too! No matter how important wanking is, it is never written with a capital 'w' unless starting a sentence...:blink::innocent:
Can you start a sentence with a verb?

[Jantar]

Can you start a sentence with a verb?
Drop that idea right now. It isn't possible, or is it?

[Banditbandit]

Drop that idea right now. It isn't possible, or is it?

Made me laugh that did ...

[MSTRS]

Can you start a sentence with a verb?

Ask Yoda....

[Maha]

See how easy mis-communication between us is ....

On that note, we are off to the beach for the weekend, so until Sunday...tallyho....:bye:

[avgas]

Ask Yoda....
Wanking to that I was

[HenryDorsetCase]

Drop that idea right now. It isn't possible, or is it?

nicely played!

[Suntoucher]

Can if it's dialogue.

"How did you get here?"
"Ran."/"Drove"/"Rode"/"Flew, and boy are my arms tired."

Post below this line and you must start it with a verb
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