Gathering data...

[davereid]

ACC have been making a bit of a point of the fact that motorcyclists cause a fair amount of their own injuries - over 50% in fact.

I am not sure this is factual, as It appears that any single vehicle crash is attributed to driver error. Sometimes this may be the case - inattention, excessive speed etc etc.

But for bikes especially we can have a single vehicle crash that a substantial amount of the blame can be laid elsewhere. Diesel spills, loose metal, incorrect signed roadworks.

This is a poll, I want to collect serious data not have it filled up with "only noobs fall off on shingle" etc etc type comments.

But if you have a useful comment please contribute.


For SINGLE VEHICLE ACCIDENTS ONLY ON A MOTORCYCLE

[yungatart]

Inadequate signage was a factor in my single vehicle accident.
We reported it to the council concerned who rectified the problem!
However motorcyclists in the area were well aware of the corner, and knew of lots of bikes coming to grief...such a shame nobody did anything about it before I happened along!

[chanceyy]

Several off's Dave

3 due to road surface (unmarked gravel)
1 due to car but as I was following my responsibility

all no injury accidents (no acc claims)

did not vote as not a clear indication of my crash history :shutup:

[scumdog]

HOW the crash happened is not ACCs worry (so it seems)

It's the fact that there WAS an injury crash at all.

[Berries]

I have never been sure where ACC get their data from. If it is from their own claims then I can’t comment, but if it is from the national crash database (CAS) then I would say that over 50% is not far off the mark, although if you are looking at single vehicle bike only crashes I would guestimate the figure to be over 80%. Yes there are those other factors that you mentioned but I don’t think they come anywhere close to being a major factor.

You mention fault. It is true that if you look at fault in a single vehicle crash using the crash database it will nearly always attribute fault to that rider/driver, even if there are extenuating circumstances such as gravel on the apex etc. This is down to the way it calculates fault based on the crash movement. So you can’t use CAS fault in a single vehicle crash, only in multi vehicle crashes to see who was the party most at fault.

Although it is based on the Police view of the incident, not necessarily the riders, I can provide a CAS analysis of single bike crashes if you know what you are after. If diesel/gravel/roadworks was an issue it is recorded. It might not give you the info you need, but it will be what TPTB are looking at.

[mashman]

But if you have a useful comment please contribute.

For SINGLE VEHICLE ACCIDENTS ONLY ON A MOTORCYCLE

Hopefully useful eeeeek

It's not about the number of "accidents" really is it. It's about the amount of money it costs ACC per motorcycle accident. (this is not a money rant :lol:)

ACC said it was 20k/motorcycle accident on average. Those are the numbers I'd like a look at, because i HIGHLY doubt that cars are cross subsidising motorcycles...

[Jantar]

I have had two single vehicle ACC claims. One I have voted on as being my fault entirely. The other one was due to mechanicle failure, which isn't given as an option. However I would guess that as no other person can be held accountable that would still go down on ACC stats as my fault.

[Motu]

I think you have too many options in your poll - there should be only one.Road conditions and other vehicles are not a reason to opt out of your responsibility.

[slofox]

I have twice come off in what might be called "single vehicle" accidents. But in fact both were low speed drops and the last one wasn't even on the road but in a carpark (albeit a public carpark)...so might not truly be termed "accidents" for the purposes of this survey.

[onearmedbandit]

For the accidents I've claimed ACC for (3) they've all been single vehicle accidents, and all been rider error.

[thehovel]

I have never been sure where ACC get their data from. If it is from their own claims then I can’t comment, but if it is from the national crash database (CAS) then I would say that over 50% is not far off the mark, although if you are looking at single vehicle bike only crashes I would guestimate the figure to be over 80%. Yes there are those other factors that you mentioned but I don’t think they come anywhere close to being a major factor.

You mention fault. It is true that if you look at fault in a single vehicle crash using the crash database it will nearly always attribute fault to that rider/driver, even if there are extenuating circumstances such as gravel on the apex etc. This is down to the way it calculates fault based on the crash movement. So you can’t use CAS fault in a single vehicle crash, only in multi vehicle crashes to see who was the party most at fault.

Although it is based on the Police view of the incident, not necessarily the riders, I can provide a CAS analysis of single bike crashes if you know what you are after. If diesel/gravel/roadworks was an issue it is recorded. It might not give you the info you need, but it will be what TPTB are looking at.


All ACC stats are based on what little box the doctor ticked. So if you are carrying a helmet he or she ticks "motor cycle crash" and even if you point out that it wasn't or it was an off road (sports crash)he is not going to refill out the form again. The doctor will never ask you if the crash is a sports ACC claim because they are biasd against motor bikes. The last crash the doc quoted the 16% motor cycle crashes states and what was a 60 mumble year old was doing riding a bike, So I asked him what the stats on pissing of an injured bike ride punching him was??? he assesd me out-side arms length. ACC stats are not based on Police stats I don't know why because they are at the crash. Regards Richard

[Woodman]

You are more likely to get injured in a motorcycle crash than a car crash no matter whose fault it is.

[oldrider]

You are more likely to get injured in a motorcycle crash than a car crash no matter whose fault it is.

That may be your opinion but I think the purpose of this thread is to dispute or justify that claim.

I for one do not believe ACC figures and statistic can be relied upon as true indication!

[Woodman]

That may be your opinion but I think the purpose of this thread is to dispute or justify that claim.

I for one do not believe ACC figures and statistic can be relied upon as true indication!

When there is a car vs bike injury accident do they list it as such?
Or do they list it as a bike crash because the bike operator is the person that is injured?
Or do they list it depending on who is at fault no matter which party is injured ?

Or other?
I honestly don't know, so need educating on the subject before going off half cocked.:facepalm:

[davereid]

I for one do not believe ACC figures and statistic can be relied upon as true indication!

They spin data at will.

But if we can get 100-500 responses, we will actually have a reasonable quality dataset with which to move forward.

So please do poll.

[Banditbandit]

I've had several single vehicle accidents on a bike.

Twice hit shingle patches on sealed roads which have not been signed properly (Council got the bill and paid it)

Once hitting the front brake too hard on a wet road ...

Once hitting the front brake too hard on a gravel drive (first time ever with a disc brake and a mate's bike)

Once got a bad tank slapper in a sweeping corner at 110 klicks (my fault I suppose ... no idea - shit happens)

Once (a very long time ago) pissed as a newt on a wet Owhiro Bay Road in Wellington (definitely my fault) ....

Only the last two were injury accidents - i.e. ACC claims ...

[davereid]

Hmm 15 responses out of 300 views

That may mean 285 riders have never crashed
or 285 riders dont care
or 285 riders cant read

Motorcyclists ability to not help themselves is gong to become a legend. In 20 years time when motorcycles are a legend.

[Motu]

Motorcyclists blaming someone or something else for their own mistakes is already legend.

[Ocean1]

Hmm 15 responses out of 300 views

That may mean 285 riders have never crashed
or 285 riders dont care
or 285 riders cant read

Motorcyclists ability to not help themselves is gong to become a legend. In 20 years time when motorcycles are a legend.

It's a badly designed poll dude, but dig anything you can out of this:

Had probably over 100 "not first gear" offs.

All but half a dozen were off road, all except one of which were 100% my fault in that there was no other entity involved.

The one off road crash which did involve someone else was another dirt bike coming the other way on my side of the (gravel) road at the crest of a hill. I'll take maybe 20% fault for that one for being there at the time. This was the only one that attracted any associated health costs.

Twice flown over cars that pulled out in front of me. Not only was I not responsible for either crash in the slightest but in one case I'll take credit for not dying. I jumped the bastard at 80k.

Once flew over a car that out-braked me. I'll take 100% of that one, had my hand down playing with the choke.

Add more than a couple parking offs, (all my fault) and that's about it.

Any help at all?

[Big Dave]

Mine were caused by failure of the nut that connects the seat to the handlebars.

[Ocean1]

There's special fluids nowadays, dude, to help stop 'em getting loose.

[Berries]

That may mean 285 riders have never crashed
or 285 riders dont care
or 285 riders cant read
Got me on two of them.

Here’s why ACC reckon that motorcyclists cause over 50% of their own injuries. I doubt very much that they collect the same level of information that the Police are supposed to do so I am pretty certain that anything other than claim costs and claim numbers comes directly from the MOT’s crash database. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

The MOT database shows that last year there were 419 crashes involving just the motorbike where someone was injured. Of those, 96 had road factors listed, but when you cull the crap ones that you can’t blame on anyone else but the rider, like the first heavy rain after a dry spell, new tyres on a wet road, slip debris, a crest, properly signed roadworks etc you are left with gravel on the road (12), surface bleeding (10), diesel/oil spill (7), poorly signed roadworks (5) a few debateable ones and then the odd bump on the apex and corrugations. In total 52(ish) crashes where somebody could arguably say there were mitigating circumstances, although it is impossible to say how much of a factor they really were.

So that’s 12% of the reported single bike only injury crashes last year where there were the road factors you are looking for. Obviously 12% is a lot less than the 31% that this poll is currently showing but, well, it’s a KB poll innit ? I don’t think 1000 responses will give you anything that you can use. (I haven't voted. Not because I don't care but because I can't see the results of this kind of poll being of any use at all).

Bike only crashes made up 39% of all bike crashes last year (419 out of 1085). If riders were at fault in half of the multi vehicle crashes (rough figure but unlikely to be far from the truth) and you took out the 52 single bike crashes above, then you could say that they caused their own injuries in 64% of all the crashes. So looking at it this way the “over 50%” claimed by ACC is correct.

Small Print - Don’t go trying to link these crash numbers with ACC figures. Not all reported injury crashes will need ACC treatment, and not all those treated will have had their crash reported.

[Ocean1]

Bike only crashes made up 39% of all bike crashes last year (419 out of 1085). If riders were at fault in half of the multi vehicle crashes (rough figure but unlikely to be far from the truth) and you took out the 52 single bike crashes above, then you could say that they caused their own injuries in 64% of all the crashes. So looking at it this way the “over 50%” claimed by ACC is correct.

There's another whole side to the risk equation, dude. Quantity of accidents atributable to a given class of vehicle and...

Consequences. If the environment is less well designed for crashing motorcycles than cars then the cost of treatment is going to be higher. Which is pretty obviously the case.

And they dont appear to be changing it either, in spite of all the money them two wheeled lemmings are costing them.

[Ocean1]

you could say that they caused their own injuries in 64% of all the crashes.

Also, how does this compare to drivers of other vehicles? One suspects that nearer 100% of car drvers bear most of the responsibility fo the crashes they're involved in, yes?

[Katman]

Also, how does this compare to drivers of other vehicles?

Who the fuck cares?

We're talking about motorcyclists having motorcycle accidents that are negatively impacting on the rest of us as a whole.

[Berries]

Also, how does this compare to drivers of other vehicles? One suspects that nearer 100% of car drvers bear most of the responsibility fo the crashes they're involved in, yes?
Because there are many more cars, and thus many more car vs car crashes, the percentage figure will be higher. But you'd have to take off the ones caused by bikers, and those caused by diesel spills, unsigned roadworks etc etc.

[wysper]

For SINGLE VEHICLE ACCIDENTS ONLY ON A MOTORCYCLE

Is this poll only related to accidents on a motorcycle on a public road?
So you are not looking for motorcyclists that have crashed off road?

[Ocean1]

We're talking about motorcyclists having motorcycle accidents that are negatively impacting on the rest of us as a whole.

No, we're not.

You are, but then that’s all you ever talk about. Bizarrely, you continue to blame a range of third parties for offenses against your person, whereas mate Occam, (amongst a vast array of expert commentators on causality) suggests you need look for just one.

The rest of us are talking about "the major cause of your single vehicle motorcycle accident"

And, as I was trying to point out: if the percentage of motorcyclists responsible for their own accident is as low as 60% it's an indication there's a higher number of external influences capable of fucking the motorcyclist over than is the case for other vehicles.

Surprise, surprise.

And appleogies to David, I misread your initial post.

[sunhuntin]

no single vehicle accidents here, but i avoided one down south. was heading through one of those tunnels near kaikoura. couldnt see through it, so trusted my gut and slowed down to about 80, likely slower. good thing, as the other side was covered in loose pea gravel and it was a corner. had i been going 100, i would have been in the drink, literally.