MP travel perks: What do you think?

[mashman]

It's not eloquent, but enough is enough. I've started a petition (http://www.petitiononline.co.nz/petition/removal-of-mp-travel-subsidies-entirely/22)... If they can have their Bill, i can have my petition :)... TPTB are MASSIVE hypocrites and i thought I'd start a petition to see if NZ feels the same. Not sure how i'll get the word out there, but it'll be interesting to see how it goes.

I want rid of those personal travel perks for MP's past and present. That's essentially what it boils down to. And i want the perks gone without "compensation".

If you think they're worth it, fine, I don't. Pass it on please...

[Bald Eagle]

Petition signed

[puddytat]

Me too
Power to the People


YA Basta!!:woohoo:

[NinjaNanna]

I'd rather see the following legislation in regards to Politicians salary:

Every politician gets paid 125% of their salary prior to being elected (that's it no perks, no dodgey subsides etc), the salary is directly linked to CPI. All previous employers are required under law to re-employ any politician who has served 1 term or less.

Simple and clean.

[bogan]

signed, and might I add that it'd be interesting to email some MPs about it, you may find a few even have the moral fiber to agree! Though I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Blackshear]

Wasn't very keen on the password, but that's what spam e-mails are for I guess.

[Oscar]

The irony is that the less attractive we make the job conditions, the worse the standard of our politicians will get.

For despite the petty jealousy of the chattering classes, the pay & conditions of the average MP is actually pretty ropey compared to the private sector. There are undoubtedly a lot of good people out there who can't afford to run for political office.

At this rate, we'll have a Parliament full of Academics and Trade Unionists on one side and "Self Made Men" and retired Lawyers on the other..

No. As you were - we've already got that.:facepalm:

[mashman]

The irony is that the less attractive we make the job conditions, the worse the standard of our politicians will get.

For despite the petty jealousy of the chattering classes, the pay & conditions of the average MP is actually pretty ropey compared to the private sector. There are undoubtedly a lot of good people out there who can't afford to run for political office.

At this rate, we'll have a Parliament full of Academics and Trade Unionists on one side and "Self Made Men" and retired Lawyers on the other..

No. As you were - we've already got that.:facepalm:

As is my bent, i'll take the flip side. We may get MP's that actually do things for their people, make sensible suggestions for sensible laws and don't bend their principles to get vote... my god, MP's may actually earn the respect of their constituents and earn the votes... If they take the job because of the terms and conditions and not for the role itself, i'd rather they weren't there sat all... Better the devil that does the least damage overall... but you'll never know unless you try :)

Do you honestly believe that it's petty jealousy? or am i trip tapping across your bridge :) We're not talking about the private sector though and if the money and T'c & C's isn't that great in comparison, does that mean that they don't have the game to make it on the other side, or are there other ways that they can make public service work for them :yes:. We're talking about the public sector. That being the case, they get paid pretty damn well and have always taken care of themselves... oh that's right, they've had pay rises forced upon them :blink:, yes they've turned some down :rofl: nope, i shall be cynical no longer :innocent:.

So watch from the stands, that's pretty much all any individual can do, it ain't like we have a choice unless our opinions are voiced. Meh, perhaps I just enjoy the futility of it all :sobstory:

[mashman]

Wasn't very keen on the password, but that's what spam e-mails are for I guess.

Me either, but I know how to work a spam filter :) If I could have found another medium, then I would have, but it was there when not much else is... Noone else is gonna ask people, may as well use my mouth for something other than swallowing parliamentary BS.

[mashman]

signed, and might I add that it'd be interesting to email some MPs about it, you may find a few even have the moral fiber to agree! Though I wouldn't hold my breath.

I dismissed the idea earlier in the day... maybe it has some merit after all. If ya don't do it you'll never know eh... Don't suppose you have a spreadsheet of them hanging around do you? If not i'll find a list tomorrow and fire it off.

Cheers to all for signing... if nothing else it'll let them know that we're coming in fits and starts...

[Oscar]

As is my bent, i'll take the flip side. We may get MP's that actually do things for their people, make sensible suggestions for sensible laws and don't bend their principles to get vote... my god, MP's may actually earn the respect of their constituents and earn the votes... If they take the job because of the terms and conditions and not for the role itself, i'd rather they weren't there sat all... Better the devil that does the least damage overall... but you'll never know unless you try :)

Do you honestly believe that it's petty jealousy? or am i trip tapping across your bridge :) We're not talking about the private sector though and if the money and T'c & C's isn't that great in comparison, does that mean that they don't have the game to make it on the other side, or are there other ways that they can make public service work for them :yes:. We're talking about the public sector. That being the case, they get paid pretty damn well and have always taken care of themselves... oh that's right, they've had pay rises forced upon them :blink:, yes they've turned some down :rofl: nope, i shall be cynical no longer :innocent:.

So watch from the stands, that's pretty much all any individual can do, it ain't like we have a choice unless our opinions are voiced. Meh, perhaps I just enjoy the futility of it all :sobstory:

You are a study in contradictions.

You start a petition, but say there's nowt to be done except watch.
I don't think what you're doing or saying is futile, just ill thought out.

You say that they have pay rises forced on them (and the reason for that is an independent body sets their pay and conditions to prevent MP's doing it themselves), yet you criticize them for something that is patently out of their control. And your inherent criticism is that they get paid to much, but an independent body sets that pay. How would you pay them?

The comment about MP's being in the Public Sector is only valid if that's where they all come from. John Key is a good example of a person who can afford to be a politician, who can afford to turn down a pay rise and wouldn't give a rats arse about travel perks - do you want a parliament full of John Keys?

I can think of any number of people in my community that would make fantastic representatives, but simply can't afford it. And I'm not just talking about the money either - it's families and relationships that suffer.

[Oscar]

Noone else is gonna ask people,

Do you vote?

[puddytat]

Do you vote?

We have all got to vote....its the only loophole they cant close:yes:

[Urano]

sorry guys...

MPs??

[mashman]

You are a study in contradictions.

You start a petition, but say there's nowt to be done except watch.
I don't think what you're doing or saying is futile, just ill thought out.

You say that they have pay rises forced on them (and the reason for that is an independent body sets their pay and conditions to prevent MP's doing it themselves), yet you criticize them for something that is patently out of their control. And your inherent criticism is that they get paid to much, but an independent body sets that pay. How would you pay them?

The comment about MP's being in the Public Sector is only valid if that's where they all come from. John Key is a good example of a person who can afford to be a politician, who can afford to turn down a pay rise and wouldn't give a rats arse about travel perks - do you want a parliament full of John Keys?

I can think of any number of people in my community that would make fantastic representatives, but simply can't afford it. And I'm not just talking about the money either - it's families and relationships that suffer.

:lol: sarcasm doesn't translate well on the interweb does it... ill thought out is a fair summation. I don't have the time to go door to door collecting signatures. I don't have time to put into the planning. What else am I supposed to do that gets them point across and wouldn't involve more drastic measures that could hurt my family?

I'm sure they have no influence in the body that sets the pay rates (SARCASM). Where did I say they get paid too much (SERIOUS QUESTION)? I would try to pay them the average wage of every public "servant" (SERIOUS ANSWER). What makes them so special (RHETORICAL)?

I agree. So you mean only valid to them? If so, i agree. If they're taking a salary and perks at the expense of the taxpayer, then they're public servants aren't they? I want a parliament full of people who are there to do the job, not fall asleep until it's their turn and not rort because they can. So no, I would prefer a bunch of Hone's.

I fully aware of that... but that's the choice that they and their families make... and as you can see I won't sacrifice my family time for it. You could argue the same for the guy who puts in a 100 hours per week and get's the basic hourly rate. Perhaps they would have the more realistic outlook on life and would make the better MP. But as you say, it takes money OR vast amounts of time and effort to get there.

[mashman]

Do you vote?

I NEVER have! There's noone worth voting for in that 2 horse race...

[Mully]

Yeah - petitions are good stuff.

Remember that referendum we had a few years back to reduce the number of MPs from 120 to 99? I can't remember how that turned out, but I'm sure it was a roaring success for democracy.

[Oscar]

I NEVER have! There's noone worth voting for in that 2 horse race...

You can't be arsed voting, but you run a petition about elected representatives?

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't vote, don't whinge about the result.

[Usarka]

You can't be arsed voting, but you run a petition about elected representatives?

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't vote, don't whinge about the result.

+10000000000

[rustyrobot]

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't vote, don't whinge about the result.

I always thought of it more like - if you DO vote, don't whinge about the result. You participated, you thought that ticking a box once every three years could really represent your wants/needs. Don't complain if the box you tick didn't end up being the winning one, because you obviously thought the system was fair. And don't complain if the box you ticked ends up biting you in the arse because you obviously were naive enough to believe what they said at election time.

[Urano]

oh... politics and elections...
:laugh:

i give you only two names: Arrow and Condorcet.
good read...
:D

[Oscar]

I always thought of it more like - if you DO vote, don't whinge about the result. You participated, you thought that ticking a box once every three years could really represent your wants/needs. Don't complain if the box you tick didn't end up being the winning one, because you obviously thought the system was fair. And don't complain if the box you ticked ends up biting you in the arse because you obviously were naive enough to believe what they said at election time.

If he can't be arsed making the minimum effort to be involved in a democracy, he can STFU.

The system is not fair (because sometimes there are legitimate concerns of minority groups that don't get addressed) but is the best one I can see and waaay better than the alternatives.

[ducatilover]

Voted. Good luck with the petition.
:drinkup:

[mashman]

You can't be arsed voting, but you run a petition about elected representatives?

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't vote, don't whinge about the result.

No, I can be arsed, I CHOOSE not to and highlighted my reasons in the previous post that answered your question...

I put up a petition about the waste of the tax dollar THAT I PAY (didn't you read it?, as shit as it is :)). So i have every right to "complain" about someone spending MY MONEY in a manner that displeases me. I also offered, what i would consider to be, a reasonable solution. It is entirely up to you wether you agree or not. Essentially it has nothing to do with politics, other than it's the politicians that are spending the money :).

I wasn't wingeing about the result. Hence the reason i don't vote. It makes no difference who's in power, they will rort and abuse where it's available.

Funny thing is, the petition isn't for or about me, is it? Or are your comprehension skills going to miss that too.



If he can't be arsed making the minimum effort to be involved in a democracy, he can STFU.

The system is not fair (because sometimes there are legitimate concerns of minority groups that don't get addressed) but is the best one I can see and waaay better than the alternatives.

Awefully undemocratic of you given the freedom of speech thingymajig. I can be arsed, I choose not to waste the 3 seconds ticking the box... else i'd be on the dole and living it up at your expense :yes:. I work, I pay my taxes, i even pay for my prescription drugs so that it doesn't come out of ACC's budget :yes:. I live as much of an honest life as I can. I don't structure my tax affairs in a way that would bring me into the category of being able to claim child tax credits, even though that option is available to me. I have a social conscience, most of the time, and try to do the best by my fellow man as I can. I've recently been in a position where I could have sent a company to the wall (because of their lack of ethics, amongst other things), but chose not to because they have families to feed too (they went under all by themselves and ripped each other off, before trying to flee the country (rumour has it) :rofl:). I'm a Libran, my family motto is VERITAS VINCIT (funnily enough)... Anything else you'd like to know? I have my reasons for my actions, same as you do...

The system is FUBAR. To the point where i'd say there is no system anymore, just a random selection of useless policy changes over a 3 year period. If you can't offer an alternative, I would suggest that you're not thinking hard enough and that indeed you should, with respect, STFU :).

[Oscar]

No, I can be arsed, I CHOOSE not to and highlighted my reasons in the previous post that answered your question...

I put up a petition about the waste of the tax dollar THAT I PAY (didn't you read it?, as shit as it is :)). So i have every right to "complain" about someone spending MY MONEY in a manner that displeases me. I also offered, what i would consider to be, a reasonable solution. It is entirely up to you wether you agree or not. Essentially it has nothing to do with politics, other than it's the politicians that are spending the money :).

I wasn't wingeing about the result. Hence the reason i don't vote. It makes no difference who's in power, they will rort and abuse where it's available.

Funny thing is, the petition isn't for or about me, is it? Or are your comprehension skills going to miss that too.



Awefully undemocratic of you given the freedom of speech thingymajig. I can be arsed, I choose not to waste the 3 seconds ticking the box... else i'd be on the dole and living it up at your expense :yes:. I work, I pay my taxes, i even pay for my prescription drugs so that it doesn't come out of ACC's budget :yes:. I live as much of an honest life as I can. I don't structure my tax affairs in a way that would bring me into the category of being able to claim child tax credits, even though that option is available to me. I have a social conscience, most of the time, and try to do the best by my fellow man as I can. I've recently been in a position where I could have sent a company to the wall (because of their lack of ethics, amongst other things), but chose not to because they have families to feed too (they went under all by themselves and ripped each other off, before trying to flee the country (rumour has it) :rofl:). I'm a Libran, my family motto is VERITAS VINCIT (funnily enough)... Anything else you'd like to know? I have my reasons for my actions, same as you do...

The system is FUBAR. To the point where i'd say there is no system anymore, just a random selection of useless policy changes over a 3 year period. If you can't offer an alternative, I would suggest that you're not thinking hard enough and that indeed you should, with respect, STFU :).

Why should I offer an alternative?
I'm not the one criticizing the system.

You seem very confused.
You say the system is fucked, without suggesting an alternative.
Not only that, but you are suggesting that you can work within that system (a parliamentary petition) to change that system.
I also don't see what your comments about tax credits and people going broke have to do with the subject at hand.

As for "a random selection of useless policy changes over a 3 year period" - how elitist and arrogant is that comment?
Are you seriously suggesting that you know better than the entire NZ electorate?
You're special.

As far as being undemocratic is concerned, on the contrary, I am exercising my right of free speech (as you are).

[mashman]

Why should I offer an alternative?
I'm not the one criticizing the system.

You seem very confused.
You say the system is fucked, without suggesting an alternative.
Not only that, but you are suggesting that you can work within that system (a parliamentary petition) to change that system.
I also don't see what your comments about tax credits and people going broke have to do with the subject at hand.

As for "a random selection of useless policy changes over a 3 year period" - how elitist and arrogant is that comment?
Are you seriously suggesting that you know better than the entire NZ electorate?
You're special.

As far as being undemocratic is concerned, on the contrary, I am exercising my right of free speech (as you are).


Yet you will critisize those who do offer alternatives?
I thought you said "The system is not fair"... must be my comprehension failure.

I am confused, but the reasons behind my confusion are not the ones you're thinking of.
In the context of the thread, I did indeed suggest an alternative in the petition. Ya know, the no perks for cash thing, just strip the perks away and change nothing else. That's an alternative.
As you have pointed out yourself, we have no choice but to work within that system. The alternative is, well, probably not very legal.
I slid into the world of sarcasm :), I must stop it, you keep asking questions and making assumptions, I thought i'd give you a little background, have a chortle to myself, as well as highlight some of the reasons behind my motives:). Your choice to read into it what you will.

That's the way I see it. Nothing of any note really changes, social funding gets cut, the rich get richer, $2 billion of exports to China, $4 billion imports from China, what could this country do with $2 billion... They even ignored the people when they resoundingly said fuck off to that smacking bill... You think TPTB know better than the rest of the country?
I've never been called elitist before. Thanks :). I've been called arrogant before and i'm sure I will again. I'd argue the toss but it'd just slide into sarcasm :yes: again.
I never said that I knew better, I just expressed a sentiment and asked if anyone shared it...
I know I am and I have the dribble and lunch on my shirt to prove it... damn...

:rofl: yet I should STFU because i don't vote :killingme

[Oscar]

Yet you will critisize those who do offer alternatives?
I thought you said "The system is not fair"... must be my comprehension failure.

I am confused, but the reasons behind my confusion are not the ones you're thinking of.
In the context of the thread, I did indeed suggest an alternative in the petition. Ya know, the no perks for cash thing, just strip the perks away and change nothing else. That's an alternative.
As you have pointed out yourself, we have no choice but to work within that system. The alternative is, well, probably not very legal.
I slid into the world of sarcasm :), I must stop it, you keep asking questions and making assumptions, I thought i'd give you a little background, have a chortle to myself, as well as highlight some of the reasons behind my motives:). Your choice to read into it what you will.

That's the way I see it. Nothing of any note really changes, social funding gets cut, the rich get richer, $2 billion of exports to China, $4 billion imports from China, what could this country do with $2 billion... They even ignored the people when they resoundingly said fuck off to that smacking bill... You think TPTB know better than the rest of the country?
I've never been called elitist before. Thanks :). I've been called arrogant before and i'm sure I will again. I'd argue the toss but it'd just slide into sarcasm :yes: again.
I never said that I knew better, I just expressed a sentiment and asked if anyone shared it...
I know I am and I have the dribble and lunch on my shirt to prove it... damn...

:rofl: yet I should STFU because i don't vote :killingme

I said the system is not perfect and inherently unfair to minority groups, but is the best of any options presented so far.

You seem to be struggling to keep one train of thought - you oscillate between Chinese debt and the stain on your shirt - perhaps you should limit yourself to one concept per thread (or one bong a day).

[mashman]

I said the system is not perfect and inherently unfair to minority groups, but is the best of any options presented so far.

You seem to be struggling to keep one train of thought - you oscillate between Chinese debt and the stain on your shirt - perhaps you should limit yourself to one concept per thread (or one bong a day).

And that's not a criticism? I must read a dictionary some day. You're right though and I blame the politicians for it being that way. Hence the $2 billion deficit, another motive and money that could be spent on the minority groups in THIS country.

It's the same train of thought to me, the motives behind me not agreeing with MP perks, they get travel subsidies, cut services, increase taxation (via GST), increase healthcare levies, increase fuel tax, cut social programmes and yet they happily lose $2 billion for the country in 1 deal... that does not sound like a bunch of people who deserve travel perks to me, let alone a cash substitute.

[Oscar]

And that's not a criticism? I must read a dictionary some day. You're right though and I blame the politicians for it being that way. Hence the $2 billion deficit, another motive and money that could be spent on the minority groups in THIS country.

It's the same train of thought to me, the motives behind me not agreeing with MP perks, they get travel subsidies, cut services, increase taxation (via GST), increase healthcare levies, increase fuel tax, cut social programmes and yet they happily lose $2 billion for the country in 1 deal... that does not sound like a bunch of people who deserve travel perks to me, let alone a cash substitute.

It seems to me that simply saying MP's get travel perks and you think they should not is a bit nebulous. If you want to do something about it - give us some facts:

1. How much is an MP is paid (including perks)?
2. How much do you think they should be paid and why?
3. How much do we spend on (non work related) travel for these guys?
4. Hasn't there already been some work vis-a-vis trading salary for perks? How much?
5. When was a teachers salary ever comparable with an MPs?

Perhaps if you'd shed the hyperbole (BTW: what did they lose $2b on, and how do you know they were happy about it?) and skin up some facts you might get somewhere.

[mashman]

It seems to me that simply saying MP's get travel perks and you think they should not is a bit nebulous. If you want to do something about it - give us some facts:

1. How much is an MP is paid (including perks)?
2. How much do you think they should be paid and why?
3. How much do we spend on (non work related) travel for these guys?
4. Hasn't there already been some work vis-a-vis trading salary for perks? How much?
5. When was a teachers salary ever comparable with an MPs?

Perhaps if you'd shed the hyperbole (BTW: what did they lose $2b on, and how do you know they were happy about it?) and skin up some facts you might get somewhere.


Salaries: http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/C225CBD7-A9DA-4144-AA23-3C7BD387AC20/94903/Parliamentarysalariesandallowancesdetermination200 .pdf

Actually, they get paid more, than the numbers i had read in media print... which i thought was enough. What is enough. Answer: Just leave the salaries where they are for now. (that answer question 1?)

I don't think they're giving value for money. Do you? We all have our own ideas about how much they should be paid. (that answer question 2?).

I'm not sure on the figures reported. This is where i have trouble with perk. 90% after 12 years service, for life. Even when you're off working for the UN? who knows. (will you allow that as answer to question 3?) And you?

Yes there has. The whole process is a waste of money in my opinion. And as I think they get enough already, there's no need to continue the process any longer. (that answer question 4).

To be fair, I read that on the forum here somewhere, something about the 70's (i had no reason to doubt it), so that could be factually incorrect. But if the averages quoted today, yes in the media, are anything to go by, they've had more than enough for long enough imho. Was that your point? (that answer question 5?).

I'm not out to prove anything. I disagree with the perks, I don't think they've earned them. Some people feel the same, some don't.

[puddytat]

Funny thing eh, when this topic comes up on here, then a day or 2 later Lockwood Smurf is on the Telly about something he's doing that'll make their "percs" top secret....:angry:
WHAT THE FUCK?
Bit by bit, they are immunising themselves against the great unwashed....

[mashman]

Funny thing eh, when this topic comes up on here, then a day or 2 later Lockwood Smurf is on the Telly about something he's doing that'll make their "percs" top secret....:angry:
WHAT THE FUCK?
Bit by bit, they are immunising themselves against the great unwashed....

Ain't like they're breaking any laws by doing it though. It's like one of the rags said, it's coming up to christmas, family time.

It's only a matter of time before they get their cash and we lose another million or more each year. I they're worth it :blink:

[Smifffy]

If one doesn't vote how can one possibly expect any MP to consider one's views?

A 16 or 17 year old is a "potential voter" anyone who has been eligible to vote in one or more elections and has not is just a whinger.

A voter can at least tell an MP "I voted for you and I feel you have let me down." or "I didn't vote for you but this issue is important to me and will heavily influence my next vote."

A non-voter can only say "I can't be arsed." or "I don't believe in the system, but I expect you to work the system for me."

I'm simply stunned at the number of ardent pushers of causes that have revealed themselves to be non-voters.

I guess the biggest problem is that in New Zealand it has for a long time been 1 man 1 vote, and unfortunately for many years Helen Clark was that 1 man, and now it's John Key.

[mashman]

:rofl: being a non voter means i get to whine and say what i like with impunity... being a non voter means that I can take the moral high ground whenever i feel, being a non voter means I tie my left and right shoe laces on alternate days so as to learn, not to favour the right or the left... NOTE: this does not reflect the values and beliefs systems of all non voters. I have a feeling that those of us who don't vote, do so for very different reasons... heaven forbid we may actually share similar views on the same issues, let alone sharing some with those who vote :gob:...

Do you reckon if i vote next year, things will change :)

[rustyrobot]

Do you reckon if i vote next year, things will change :)

Hell yes! Of course they will. Just like all those other elections where it came down to one vote. :yes:

[Oscar]

:rofl: being a non voter means i get to whine and say what i like with impunity... being a non voter means that I can take the moral high ground whenever i feel, being a non voter means I tie my left and right shoe laces on alternate days so as to learn, not to favour the right or the left... NOTE: this does not reflect the values and beliefs systems of all non voters. I have a feeling that those of us who don't vote, do so for very different reasons... heaven forbid we may actually share similar views on the same issues, let alone sharing some with those who vote :gob:...

Do you reckon if i vote next year, things will change :)

Just a wild guess here, but I'd say you'd probably whine and take the moral high ground even if you did vote...

[saxet]

Just a wild guess here, but I'd say you'd probably whine and take the moral high ground even if you did vote...

More evidence that alot of people think it's thier god given right to be bent over a barrel and done up the backside. Some even seem to enjoy it.

Your happiness with the present system is evident in the tone of your posts.

Petition signed.

[Oscar]

More evidence that alot of people think it's thier god given right to be bent over a barrel and done up the backside. Some even seem to enjoy it.

Your happiness with the present system is evident in the tone of your posts.

Petition signed.

Where did I say I was happy with the present system?
You're another one that seems to talk only in hyperbole and generalisations (or maybe generalised hyperbole...or hyperbolic generalisation)
My concern is the type of people that we get to represent us (a cynic would say we get what we deserve).

The petition is ill conceived and only addresses part of the issue.

[mashman]

Just a wild guess here, but I'd say you'd probably whine and take the moral high ground even if you did vote...


:lol: Unfortunately people who voice concern in an emotive manner, will always be seen as whiners, or taking the moral high ground, irrespective of "argument" or "issue". People will think what they want to think in regards to other's points of view. But that does not mean that those minds can't be changed (MINE INCLUDED). Some may only accept physical proof, some may accept the concerned emotive argument :), some may argue because they enjoy it, some may argue because they have something to hide, some may argue despite the logic and on and on and on...

We all have our own points of view and those points of view are aired/read and measured using our personal value/belief system as the benchmark. That value/belief system may seem flawed to others, there's nothing anyone can really do about that...

[Oscar]

:lol: Unfortunately people who voice concern in an emotive manner, will always be seen as whiners, or taking the moral high ground, irrespective of "argument" or "issue". People will think what they want to think in regards to other's points of view. But that does not mean that those minds can't be changed. Some may only accept physical proof, some may accept the concerned emotive argument :), some may argue because they enjoy it, some may argue because they have something to hide, some may argue despite the logic and on and on and on...

We all have our own points of view and those points of view are aired/read and measured using our personal value/belief system as the benchmark. That value/belief system may seem flawed to others, there's nothing anyone can really do about that...

So I'll take that as a "yes" then?:laugh:

[mashman]

So I'll take that as a "yes" then?:laugh:

:lol: yes.

[puddytat]

If we ALL didnt vote as a protest would there be a Goverment? Yup sure would be,the laws exist that in times of ? they'd just use their rules to go another round or enstate martial law...
Better we all vote Green & just get on with it:shit::yes:

[saxet]

Where did I say I was happy with the present system?
You're another one that seems to talk only in hyperbole and generalisations (or maybe generalised hyperbole...or hyperbolic generalisation)
My concern is the type of people that we get to represent us (a cynic would say we get what we deserve).

The petition is ill conceived and only addresses part of the issue.

Who's talking in hyperbole and generalisations?

Lets see if I've got this right.
You're NOT happy with the present system so you don't think anything should be done about it?:shit:
Fixing part of the problem is pointless?:shit:
You like to complain about people complaing?:shit:

[Oscar]

Who's talking in hyperbole and generalisations?

Lets see if I've got this right.
You're NOT happy with the present system so you don't think anything should be done about it?:shit:
Fixing part of the problem is pointless?:shit:
You like to complain about people complaing?:shit:

And you like to complain about me complaining about people complaining?

Jeez - calm down.

I looked at the petition and thought it was confusing and only addressed one issue (you might want to read the whole thread before elevating your blood pressure like that). For example - If you get rid of the travel perks, what do you do about accommodation rorts and such?

And yes - I think:

More evidence that alot of people think it's thier god given right to be bent over a barrel and done up the backside. Some even seem to enjoy it.

Is typical of the shrill generalisations and bombastic hyperbole that haunt this subject.

[Subike]

yawn, started to read thread, but got board fast
politics, mmm
but did sign petition

[mashman]

Oh the irony



You seem to be struggling to keep one train of thought - you oscillate between Chinese debt and the stain on your shirt - perhaps you should limit yourself to one concept per thread (or one bong a day).



I looked at the petition and thought it was confusing and only addressed one issue (you might want to read the whole thread before elevating your blood pressure like that). For example - If you get rid of the travel perks, what do you do about accommodation rorts and such?


You start the accommodation rort petition. I'll sign it :yes:

[mashman]

yawn, started to read thread, but got board fast
politics, mmm
but did sign petition

:rofl: you didn't have to type the "shit" :blink: :killingme

[Smifffy]

So you consider your vote worthless, but you want to petition parliament because that might initiate change?

Did you write the petition yourself?

[saxet]

Oh the irony





You start the accommodation rort petition. I'll sign it :yes:

:laugh:It seems the meaning of irony, sarcasm, hyperbole and generalisations is lost on some people.

[mashman]

So you consider your vote worthless, but you want to petition parliament because that might initiate change?

Did you write the petition yourself?

Reasons aside, yes, I consider my PARTY vote to be worthless. Yes.

:lol: Yes, obviously.

[mashman]

:laugh:It seems the meaning of irony, sarcasm, hyperbole and generalisations is lost on some people.

meh, i'd expect no less if the petition actually made it through the doors of the beehive... tis just the way some (the majority?) folk look at things :shutup:

[Oscar]

Oh the irony


You start the accommodation rort petition. I'll sign it :yes:

Er - that's not irony.
That's you trying to make a humorous connection between two unrelated comments (and failing).
You shouldn't look to Alanis Morissette for a guide to English definitions.

[mashman]

Er - that's not irony.
That's you trying to make a humorous connection between two unrelated comments (and failing).
You shouldn't look to Alanis Morissette for a guide to English definitions.

Looking through my eyes it is. :bleh:
That's looking through your eyes.
Fair enough, Sex Pistols ok?

[Oscar]

Looking through my eyes it is. :bleh:
That's looking through your eyes.
Fair enough, Sex Pistols ok?

Pink Floyd:yes:

[mashman]

Pink Floyd:yes:

The Trial off The Wall?

Good morning, Worm your honor.
The crown will plainly show
The prisoner who now stands before you
Was caught red-handed showing feelings
Showing feelings of an almost human nature;
This will not do.
Call the schoolmaster!

I always said he'd come to no good
In the end your honor.
If they'd let me have my way I could
Have flayed him into shape.
But my hands were tied,
The bleeding hearts and artists
Let him get away with murder.
Let me hammer him today?

Crazy,
Toys in the attic I am crazy,
Truly gone fishing.
They must have taken my marbles away.
Crazy, toys in the attic he is crazy.

You little shit you're in it now,
I hope they throw away the key.
You should have talked to me more often
Than you did, but no! You had to go
Your own way, have you broken any
Homes up lately?
Just five minutes, Worm your honor,
Him and Me, alone.

Baaaaaaaaaabe!
Come to mother baby, let me hold you
In my arms.
M'lud I never wanted him to
Get in any trouble.
Why'd he ever have to leave me?
Worm, your honor, let me take him home.

Crazy,
Over the rainbow, I am crazy,
Bars in the window.
There must have been a door there in the wall
When I came in.
Crazy, over the rainbow, he is crazy.

The evidence before the court is
Incontrivertable, there's no need for
The jury to retire.
In all my years of judging
I have never heard before
Of someone more deserving
Of the full penaltie of law.
The way you made them suffer,
Your exquisite wife and mother,
Fills me with the urge to defecate!

"Hey Judge! Shit on him!"

Since, my friend, you have revealed your
Deepest fear,
I sentence you to be exposed before
Your peers.
Tear down the wall!

[ducatilover]

The Trial off The Wall?

Good morning, Worm your honor.
The crown will plainly show
The prisoner who now stands before you
Was caught red-handed showing feelings
Showing feelings of an almost human nature;
This will not do.
Call the schoolmaster!

I always said he'd come to no good
In the end your honor.
If they'd let me have my way I could
Have flayed him into shape.
But my hands were tied,
The bleeding hearts and artists
Let him get away with murder.
Let me hammer him today?

Crazy,
Toys in the attic I am crazy,
Truly gone fishing.
They must have taken my marbles away.
Crazy, toys in the attic he is crazy.

You little shit you're in it now,
I hope they throw away the key.
You should have talked to me more often
Than you did, but no! You had to go
Your own way, have you broken any
Homes up lately?
Just five minutes, Worm your honor,
Him and Me, alone.

Baaaaaaaaaabe!
Come to mother baby, let me hold you
In my arms.
M'lud I never wanted him to
Get in any trouble.
Why'd he ever have to leave me?
Worm, your honor, let me take him home.

Crazy,
Over the rainbow, I am crazy,
Bars in the window.
There must have been a door there in the wall
When I came in.
Crazy, over the rainbow, he is crazy.

The evidence before the court is
Incontrivertable, there's no need for
The jury to retire.
In all my years of judging
I have never heard before
Of someone more deserving
Of the full penaltie of law.
The way you made them suffer,
Your exquisite wife and mother,
Fills me with the urge to defecate!

"Hey Judge! Shit on him!"

Since, my friend, you have revealed your
Deepest fear,
I sentence you to be exposed before
Your peers.
Tear down the wall!

:love::love::love::love::love: Best band, ever.

[mashman]

I found my vote. Dunno where it's been all this time :killingme

I propose the following restructure to the political offices of New Zealand.

The role of Prime Minister is to be abolished. And in it's place there will be. The Financial Prime Minister of New Zealand and the Social Prime Minister of New Zealand.

John Key becomes the Financial Prime Minister and we decide who the front wo/man we will be for the Social Prime Minister role. (labor and the nats can fight for that position too if they like :rofl:)

Nothing else changes.

The Social Prime Minister will be responsible for the reading of submissions posted by the public of New Zealand. Find out what the financial cost is from JK, then balance that against the social cost and see if anyone has come up with any good ideas, that would lower both financial and social cost. They may need an office full of staff too.

I will then vote.

[ducatilover]

I found my vote. Dunno where it's been all this time :killingme

I propose the following restructure to the political offices of New Zealand.

The role of Prime Minister is to be abolished. And in it's place there will be. The Financial Prime Minister of New Zealand and the Social Prime Minister of New Zealand.

John Key becomes the Financial Prime Minister and we decide who the front wo/man we will be for the Social Prime Minister role. (labor and the nats can fight for that position too if they like :rofl:)

Nothing else changes.

The Social Prime Minister will be responsible for the reading of submissions posted by the public of New Zealand. Find out what the financial cost is from JK, then balance that against the social cost and see if anyone has come up with any good ideas, that would lower both financial and social cost. They may need an office full of staff too.

I will then vote.
They won't do that, short term money loss is a no-no. Unless it involves something that will end up being completely useless and will not benefit anyone, anywhere.
'Tis not economically viable mate.
Far to logical.

[mashman]

They won't do that, short term money loss is a no-no. Unless it involves something that will end up being completely useless and will not benefit anyone, anywhere.
'Tis not economically viable mate.
Far to logical.

You don't have to do away with the current costs at the moment, but the current costing model needs to change.

An injury sustained in a crash is just that, an injury right? Cars are responsible for 78% of all injury crashes. Those figures are obtainable. That has a knock on social cost. It's a fact.. Just because they group it, them and us, doesn't mean they actually crash any less. It just means they pay lees to crash more.

[ducatilover]

You don't have to do away with the current costs at the moment, but the current costing model needs to change.

An injury sustained in a crash is just that, an injury right? Cars are responsible for 78% of all injury crashes. Those figures are obtainable. That has a knock on social cost. It's a fact.. Just because they group it, them and us, doesn't mean they actually crash any less. It just means they pay lees to crash more.

See, if you start making sense, it can't work....Ya know?

[mashman]

See, if you start making sense, it can't work....Ya know?

:rofl: i doubt that'll ever happen.

[mashman]

So so Wong (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8307142/ministers-future-uncertain/)

oh and please sign the petition (http://www.petitiononline.co.nz/petition/removal-of-mp-travel-subsidies-entirely/22) if you agree... Thanks

[Oscar]

So so Wong (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8307142/ministers-future-uncertain/)

oh and please sign the petition (http://www.petitiononline.co.nz/petition/removal-of-mp-travel-subsidies-entirely/22) if you agree... Thanks

Explain in your own words what she did wrong.

[mashman]

Explain in your own words what she did wrong.

you mean wong. I never said wrong.

[mashman]

So in any other part of the world, ripping off your employer generally sees you either jobless or inside jail.... (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8318135/pm-doubts-wong-will-step-down-as-mp/2/)

"John Key doubts a by-election will be needed, once the Parliamentary Service review of Mrs Wong's actions is complete. "Everyone will need to consider that report and she will need to consider the report, but I think she's already paid a very heavy price" he told Mike Hosking on Newstalk ZB."

Already paid a heavy price :rofl: always look after your own eh!!!! bullfuckinshit...

[saxet]

Looks Like John Key has read your petition and agrees, thats a blow for the knockers:yes:

[Oscar]

Looks Like John Key has read your petition and agrees, thats a blow for the knockers:yes:

Thanks for the Tui Ad:


John Key has read your petition and agrees...







Yeah right!

[bogan]

So so Wong (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8307142/ministers-future-uncertain/)

oh and please sign the petition (http://www.petitiononline.co.nz/petition/removal-of-mp-travel-subsidies-entirely/22) if you agree... Thanks

thats the thing aye, I wouldn't mind all the travel perks and salary whatnot so much if they were worth it, but this sorta shit kinda shows otherwise, and perhaps its a cause, the greedy wouldn't be attracted to the job if there were no perks.

[Fatt Max]

So glad it was Pansy that got caught, I had the pleasure of putting a lump of coal in her letterbox last November, I also had the displeasure of having dealings with her during my time at Botany Shopping Centre, she was a scheming robbing bitch back then asd well.

So, sent her this email:

Ms Wong,

I want to offer you my thanks

Thanks for resigning.

Thanks for betraying the trust that those who voted for you placed in the false integrity you paraded around the Botany area.

Thanks for once again proving that members of parliament cannot ever be trusted

Thanks for ensuring we know you are nothing but a cheat

Thanks for putting your own interests in front of those you represent....time and time again

You should be ashamed of yourself. You should never be permitted to represent in a political role again

You have proved to me and 1000's of New Zealanders that you are a fraud and that the only manifesto you serve is your own'

And you have the cheek to call yourself Honourable

You are no better than any othe politician who abuse their position including the likes of Rodney Hide

This has nothing to do with race or gender for I have no care on that regard. This has to do with all of what I have said above

You are NOT welcome in Botany, a sentiment shared by many I can assure you

Resign as MP for Botany and give the people of this vibrant area a chance to vote for someone who will work for them

M P Hill

I didnt vote for her by the way, because she is a [INSERT CHOSEN EXPLETIVE / BODY PART / BODILY FUNCTION HERE]

Plus, never ever trust a politician, especially one you can blindfold with a shoelace

[mashman]

Looks Like John Key has read your petition and agrees, thats a blow for the knockers:yes:

Thanks for the reminder, forgot to send it to him :facepalm:. It's only a petition :) what's the worst that could happen...

Thanks for the title change whoever thou art...

[mashman]

I looked at the petition and thought it was confusing and only addressed one issue (you might want to read the whole thread before elevating your blood pressure like that). For example - If you get rid of the travel perks, what do you do about accommodation rorts and such?


Right on Q (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8334076/interesting-mp-expenses-patterns/2/)

[Oscar]

Right on Q (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8334076/interesting-mp-expenses-patterns/2/)

The funny thing is that Key says that if the travel perks are abolished then there should be no increase in salary by way of compensation.

[mashman]

The funny thing is that Key says that if the travel perks are abolished then there should be no increase in salary by way of compensation.

Lucky for him it's not his decision... :lol:

[Oscar]

Lucky for him it's not his decision... :lol:

Basically the whole thing should be taken outside the realms of politics.
So even though Key is trying to limit the amount, he is guilty of political interference.

[mashman]

Basically the whole thing should be taken outside the realms of politics.
So even though Key is trying to limit the amount, he is guilty of political interference.

Isn't that what the Remuneration Authority is for?
Heh, there's no poiltical interference, JK's just saying he'd be happy for the perks to go, something we can agree on finally :shifty:... perhaps the Remuneration Authority will be heartened by his selfless words and JK and chums will get some extra cash for giving up their perks so gracefully :blink:

[mashman]

So then (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/8341054/mps-lose-international-travel-perk/). The perks have been scrapped, ha the petition must have worked :killingme... but only for current MP's. All former MP's will keep on getting the perk for life WTF!!!! they're not doing anything for the country, fuckin get yer hands off the public purse... fackin rediculous

[ellipsis]

......same shit just another place...

<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf" flashvars="file=http://vid888.photobucket.com/albums/ac85/motorcycle-mania/ELSUEO_Liz.mp4">

[mashman]

......same shit just another place...

Nice... that's about the longest i've heard the guy talk without laughing... He ain;t wrong though :lol:

[SPman]

The funny thing is that Key says that if the travel perks are abolished then there should be no increase in salary by way of compensation.
Because any claim that they should be compensated should only apply to those who were around when the rort/perk was brought in - like early '70's. Since then, MP's wages have increased at a far higher rate than the general populace, as have their allowances.
There is no place for ANY MP's to be able to claim subsidized travel for life! Particularly after they leave parliament!