70kmh max for learners?

[superman]

I have heard from lots of biking friends that when they were learners they refused to put the L plate on because it caused much more strife than gain. I remember thinking the same thing when I was on my car learners but anyway, seeing as I live in the country and have to drive 10km to the nearest dairy along an open 100km/h road. I feel a bit uneasy about this 70km/h max business. :blink:

I ocassionally in my car drive 80km through the country if I feel like being stingy with my fuel, and the amount of dangerous overtaking from the lack of long straights I've witnessed is making me worry about going 70km/h on a motorbike. I remember hearing that they were going to remove the 70km/h cap but I haven't heard anything about this for a while, I don't see it being any less dangerous on the motorway going 70 as people pass you at 100+. :shit:

What would your advice be?

Stay in my little 5km culdesac until I get my restricted license?

Don't put on the L plate and drive at traffic speed? (cop would probably think I'm a restricted/full driver, not likely to get found out, other vehicles treat me like a normal motorcyclist, albeit a more experienced one than I actually am which probably isn't a good thing)

Put on the L plate and drive at traffic speed? (more likely to be pulled over by cop, but still showing to people I'm a learner and trying to avoid dangerous cars/trucks overtaking me)

Drive with L plate on, and don't go over 70km/h (deal with the traffic build up and pull over where possible, they might not do dangerous overtaking when they see the L)

Note: I intend to be riding to university in 3 months, which consists of a 50km journey each way, through about 20 minutes of country driving and 20 minutes of motorway.

Cheers

[sil3nt]

No L plate and ride at the speed your comfortable at (within the law!).

Some get away with it some don't. I got away with it. Just remember to put the L plate on before you sit the test!

[superman]

No L plate and ride at the speed your comfortable at (within the law!).

Some get away with it some don't. I got away with it. Just remember to put the L plate on before you sit the test!

Yeah I know if I got pulled over by a cop here and I explained the whole situation they'd be very understanding. It's just the further you get into Auckland the cops seem to become more strict and less forgiving. Granted most Auckland drivers are absolute dicks.

Like when I was on my learners back in the day I was taking a friend home from train station because we went to New Market to watch a movie with some friends. The cops know there is no public transport within 20mins of where we live and they understand we don't want to stay cooped up at home unless our parents can drive us somewhere. Breaking 2 license laws I thought for sure I was a goner it being 11pm. They just said "we're looking for drunks, see you later" :woohoo: exactly how it should be!

[EJK]

If you ever get pulled over simply BECAUSE you were riding over 70kph on your learners, I'll give you $20.

[st00ji]

i was pulled over twice during my learner period, which was probably 1000% more frequently than when im driving a car, but nevermind that. got a ticket once, the second time - i was months and months over my minimum time for learners, should have done it eh.

i reckon you'll be fine 99.9% of the time, provided you dont do anything else to bring attention to yourself and are a confident rider. as a few wise old heads on here say, try and break just one law at a time.

i did the 70k thing for a couple of weeks and got the shit scared out of me three or four times by cars cutting in front of me etc. resolved to ride at traffic speed regardless of the monetary cost after that.

[KiWiP]

IMHO Use L plates. It's very difficult to argue your way out of the fact you don't have one.

On faster than 70Km/h stretches stay in left hand lane and travel at same speed as vehicle in front remembering the 2 second rule. If someone cuts in front pull back to maintain 2 second rule while muttering 'Dick' If you do go up to 100Km/h and you are pulled over (unlikely) explain you were maintaining speed with the traffic and shit scared of having a stoned trucker mount you from behind.

[MSTRS]

Put the L on and ride at the traffic speed for where you are.* Most cops won't ticket for speed breech alone.

* Of course, if you and the cop are the only vehicles there at the time, it might pay to observe the 70 thing...

[maggot]

I've never used an L plate, minus my restricted test.
I've been pulled over a few times, and had separate incidents with the police and never got a ticket or anything. That being said, I wouldn't advise it. Makes you feel paranoid as hell.
For me, just personally, I knew I'd have to use the motorway everyday, and I would have to go 100km/h to feel safe on the motorway, and the L plate would call unneeded attention to me, so I felt it unimportant. That being said, if I didn't need to use the motorway, I'd have a plate on, no doubt.
It's just a risk that you have to calculate and decide whether you want to take or not, and live with the consequences if there are any.

Personally, I can't wait for the day they get rid of the 70km/h limit.

[sunhuntin]

i used my l plate the whole way through. i will never forget one windy as hell day down canterbury. i was riding at about 110k. was a side wind that would have put me in a ditch had i gone slower. saw a cop in my mirrors, considering slowing and decided against it. instead, i maintained my speed and road position. the cop overtook, looked at me on his way past, pulled back in and went on his merry way. totally unexpected, and quite good cos if he had taken my licence, i was a long way from home, lol.

[GOONR]

I kept the L plate on but didn't observe the 70k limit. Never had an issue.

[p.dath]

Check out my L-Plate BLOG entry.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/entry.php/1646-L-Plates-Their-just-a-sign

[superman]

Check out my L-Plate BLOG entry.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/entry.php/1646-L-Plates-Their-just-a-sign

So am I right in deducing that you'd recommend I'd stay in my 5km (100km/h) culdesac that has minimal traffic until I feel super confident with the machine handling, and then leave my mothers womb into the big bad main road.

I assume you mean to go 100km/h however even though your blog says to wait the 6 months. Since 80% of the roads I drive on are 100km/h roads not being a townie. And I just don't really see that as being realistic. How will I drive on the motorway at 70km/h and not shit my pants.

Do you really feel that for a learner driving in a straight line at 100km/h that it's not worth the risk compared to going 70km/h with cars passing at 100-120km/h.

[EJK]

So am I right in deducing that you'd recommend I'd stay in my 5km (100km/h) culdesac that has minimal traffic until I feel super confident with the machine handling, and then leave my mothers womb into the big bad main road.

I assume you mean to go 100km/h however even though your blog says to wait the 6 months. Since 80% of the roads I drive on are 100km/h roads not being a townie. And I just don't really see that as being realistic. How will I drive on the motorway at 70km/h and not shit my pants.

Do you really feel that for a learner driving in a straight line at 100km/h that it's not worth the risk compared to going 70km/h with cars passing at 100-120km/h.

Do you want my $20 bux or not?

[PrincessBandit]

I agree with KiWiP, use the L plate. The yellow square stuck to my bum for the 6 months on my learners but I travelled over the 70kph frequently on the motorway in Auckland and never got a ticket. Never even been pulled over.
As others say, usually it is more than just one thing that you attract attention for.

[superman]

If you ever get pulled over simply BECAUSE you were riding over 70kph on your learners, I'll give you $20.

Ok Mr. EJK, I will ride with the L plate and go over 70km/h where appropriate. Your $20 will be much appreciated if I do get the fine. Though I agree with you that it would be very unlikely to be pulled over for that reason alone.

[porky]

Hey, you are superman, do the fuck what you want.

[DMNTD]

Do you want my $20 bux or not?

Make it a $50 and I'll take it :yes:

[\m/]

I'm using the L plate and riding at a comfortable speed. Haven't had any cars tailgating me yet. General duty cops probably won't give you a ticket for going over 70, just the highway patrol fuckstains you have to watch out for.

[MSTRS]

General duty cops probably won't give you a ticket for going over 70, just the highway patrol fuckstains you have to watch out for.

And you tell them apart, how? Cars are all going Blue/Yellow.
Besides, there are very few snakes that actually 'enforce' the 70kph rule...like us, they mostly realise it's a fucking stupid, dangerous, past it's use-by rule and ignore it.

[Toaster]

If you ever get pulled over simply BECAUSE you were riding over 70kph on your learners, I'll give you $20.

Yes that would suck just a bit.... like a small octopus on my leg in the shallow end of a rock pool.

[Toaster]

Besides, there are very few snakes that actually 'enforce' the 70kph rule...like us, they mostly realise it's a fucking stupid, dangerous, past it's use-by rule and ignore it.

Agreed. It is a damn stupid law and one that (if riders decide to mix it up in 100km/h zones) puts riders and other road users at unnecessary risk.

One speed limit for all.

[Spazman727]

On my learners I used a (broken) l plate and went whatever the speed limit was, never had any trouble. However, I have seen some L platers doing some really stupid stuff on the motorway which I would expect that if a copper saw them, they would've been pulled over. And surely if the cop goes to the trouble of pulling you over, they would want to got you with everything they can. In other words, use l plate (so they can't give you a fine for that) do a safe speed for traffic conditions and don't do anything stupid (unless you're sure there are no cops :innocent:)

[p.dath]

So am I right in deducing that you'd recommend I'd stay in my 5km (100km/h) culdesac that has minimal traffic until I feel super confident with the machine handling, and then leave my mothers womb into the big bad main road.

I assume you mean to go 100km/h however even though your blog says to wait the 6 months. Since 80% of the roads I drive on are 100km/h roads not being a townie. And I just don't really see that as being realistic. How will I drive on the motorway at 70km/h and not shit my pants.

Do you really feel that for a learner driving in a straight line at 100km/h that it's not worth the risk compared to going 70km/h with cars passing at 100-120km/h.

You asked for an opinion, and I offered it.

Yes, I would recommend starting in a quiet culdesac, and as your confidence grows move to busier and more demanding roads. You'll know when your not ready - because your feel fearful. If you feel fearful you need to spend more time on quieter roads until your confidence and skill does build.

And yes, I'd recommend sticking to the 70km/h restriction. If you can't safely ride on a 100km/h road because of the traffic volume or conditions - then don't *choose* to place yourself in that danger. *Choose* to ride on a safer stretch of road. Sometimes learner riders pedal out the line there is no where else safe to ride so they "have" to ride at 100km/h. No one is *forcing* you to exceed your licence restrictions, so don't make that choice. Some 100km/h roads can be ridden on safely at 70km/h. Locally we have a road called East Coast Bays road, and it has a stretch at 100km/h. I have taken several learners out on it. If cars come up behind us we simply pull over and let them pass - but we stick to their 70km/h restriction. We make that "choice".

Many riders don't get this - but rider attitude has a huge impact on safety. And rider attitude is all about choices.

It's your body. It's your mind. It's your bike. You choose.

[MSTRS]

It's your body. It's your mind. It's your bike. You choose.

It's also one's choice to ignore a law that can be dangerous to observe.

[p.dath]

It's also one's choice to ignore a law that can be dangerous to observe.

Personally I see no danger in observing the law. Danger is created when you choose to put yourself in a position of risk that you can not mitigate.

But you are correct. You can choose to ignore any law initially. However ignoring some laws will result in your personal freedom (aka your right to choose) being removed.

[MSTRS]

I can't think of any law that I would ignore because it is stupid and dangerous.
Except the 70kph one.

[p.dath]

I can't think of any law that I would ignore because it is stupid and dangerous.
Except the 70kph one.

Personal perception. :)

[MSTRS]

Which is the ONLY reason it still exists. 'Enough' people buy into it, that the pollies/NZTA see no reason to rescind it.
Even licence testing around this issue is a joke. A learner is not allowed to exceed 70kph, but to sit the restricted licence one is tested on ability to do 100kph on an open road section.
Fucking two-faced ludicriousness...

[ducatilover]

I watched a learner rider the other day, I followed said learner and the rider in front of the L plater. They were doing the 70k rule and riding very sensibly. Only to be tail gated by a turd in a Camry, who eventually passed in a very dangerous place.
I followed said Camry driver and explained my thoughts on the issue, I explained that putting pressure on the rider where they cannot pull over safely then passing into a blind corner is generally stupid and that I was to put a report in about said numpty.

I dislike cagers who tailgate bikers, and vice versa.

The 70kp/h rule almost contributed to an accident there, but, it really would have been more the fault of the fuck-knuckle cager.

[imdying]

The rules are:
- you can't travel without an L Plate.
- you can't travel above 70km/hr.
- too slowly and you're driving inconsiderately

Therefore it seems clear that they you want you to mark yourself as a learner, and stay out of areas where the speed limit exceeds 70km/hr.

What should you do? Exactly what they want. Learn to ride your bike in <70km/hr zones, and then get your restricted license.

The law is not dangerous at all, just stay out of areas that you have not yet earnt the right to ride in. It's that fucking simple.

[MSTRS]

The 70kp/h rule almost contributed to an accident there, but, it really would have been more the fault of the fuck-knuckle cager.

I would almost never put the fault on the 70kph'er. But a rule that imposes a significantly slower speed on anyone leads to frustration for most and stupid shit from some. Remember, regardless of right/wrong...who gets hurt?

[ducatilover]

...who gets hurt?

Our wallets? :facepalm:

[MSTRS]

The law is not dangerous at all, just stay out of areas that you have not yet earnt the right to ride in. It's that fucking simple.

Yes - it is. Dangerous, that is. Not everyone is blessed with an abundance of 70kph or under roads.
eg I live in Napier, I've just got my 6L, and I work in Hastings. I have a choice of 4 roads I can use to commute. ALL of them are 100kph.
Or Tirau/Putaruru. Or Cambridge/Hamilton. Or Waikanae/Paraparaumu. Or Inglewood/New Plymouth. Or or or.

[p.dath]

Which is the ONLY reason it still exists. 'Enough' people buy into it, that the pollies/NZTA see no reason to rescind it.
Even licence testing around this issue is a joke. A learner is not allowed to exceed 70kph, but to sit the restricted licence one is tested on ability to do 100kph on an open road section.
Fucking two-faced ludicriousness...

The thing is, it doesn't matter weather you agree with the law or not, as a citizen you are required to comply with it (whether you choose to or not is another story). If you don't like the law then you need to partition the Government to change it - and if enough people support your view then a change will eventually happen. More than likely, enough people wont feel strongly about it, and will accept the status quo, and no change will occur.

[p.dath]

I would almost never put the fault on the 70kph'er. But a rule that imposes a significantly slower speed on anyone leads to frustration for most and stupid shit from some. Remember, regardless of right/wrong...who gets hurt?

No one is likely to get hurt unless they *choose* to place them self at risk. Choosing to ride at 70km/h in a place with 100km/h traffic that is busy is increasing the risk.

It's this simple. Simply don't choose to take that risk.

[Gibbo89]

Personally, I can't wait for the day they get rid of the 100km/h limit.

at the risk of giving every guy and girl in here a boner, you want some autobahns in NZ?

[MSTRS]

I'd love to partition the govt :innocent:

Thing is, those it applies to are few in number in the scheme of things, and of all the other motorists that it doesn't apply to, most don't feel very strongly (except at the time they are being inconvenienced). And they will be car drivers who prolly don't know about the bike-specific rules anyway.

[p.dath]

at the risk of giving every guy and girl in here a boner, you want some autobahns in NZ?

The rural highways in Western Australia never used to have speed limits. The year they introduced a 100km/h limit (about 2 years ago from memory) the accident rate increased a drastic 30%.

The thinking is that before the limit was in place people "chose" to drive/ride at a pace that felt safe. Sometimes that was slower, sometimes it was faster. When the 100km/h limit was created it gave a false impression that the road network was now capable of those speeds - when in many places it was not.

[MSTRS]

The rural highways in Western Australia never used to have speed limits. The year they introduced a 100km/h limit (about 2 years ago from memory) the accident rate increased a drastic 30%.

The thinking is that before the limit was in place people "chose" to drive/ride at a pace that felt safe. Sometimes that was slower, sometimes it was faster. When the 100km/h limit was created it gave a false impression that the road network was now capable of those speeds - when in many places it was not.

And? in NT as well. Proof that limits are dangerous. And that people are capable of thinking for themselves when left to it.

[Gibbo89]

The rules are:
- you can't travel without an L Plate.
- you can't travel above 70km/hr.
- too slowly and you're driving inconsiderately

Therefore it seems clear that they you want you to mark yourself as a learner, and stay out of areas where the speed limit exceeds 70km/hr.

What should you do? Exactly what they want. Learn to ride your bike in <70km/hr zones, and then get your restricted license.

The law is not dangerous at all, just stay out of areas that you have not yet earnt the right to ride in. It's that fucking simple.

earn the right? i don't get that. what if you are forty years old, been riding cars etc for 20 to 25 years and never had a crash or anything in your life. why do you need to 'earn' the right to travel at 100kph on a motorbike? yeah sure some people will battle to pick up the skill to ride a motorbike more than others, but some will be comfortable riding a bike but on the daily commute to work in a 100k zone they have some big ass trucks catching up to you is very intimidating (even to my theoretical 40 year old pimp as driver).

try drive on the motorway at 70kph when you are next on a SH1 and see what it's like (with an L plate attached), not good at all.

anyway, i personally do not ride with an L plate when on the learner friendly WNR. i put it on if i am going to drive around town (when i remember). when i have the plate on, people tailgate a lot more even if i'm going 60 in a 50 etc compared to when I do not have my plate on the bike. drivers have a mentality of (i gotta get past this newbie) even around town.

[aprilia_RS250]

I got one ticket before, speeding (100, restricted to to 70!) and no L plate (loss of license territory now believe it or not!). While I was getting the ticket written up I asked the bike cop if he has ever been hit by a car. He said too many times. I asked him if he's ever been rear ended, he goes yeah many times at intersections, people always go woops where did you come from. Then I asked him if he'd still be here if it happened to be a SUV travelling at 100 and he was going 70.... I got told not to be cheeky and just received 30 demerits for no plate and $100 fine. I then always stuck the plate on and rode at 100km/h.

[steve_t]

Basically, do whatever you feel is safe and right - you're old enough to choose for yourself. If it's currently illegal and you get caught, don't expect sympathy from anyone, especially not here, when you post about how the fine is bullshit and the cop was picking on your for no good reason :done:

[p.dath]

earn the right? i don't get that. what if you are forty years old, been riding cars etc for 20 to 25 years and never had a crash or anything in your life. why do you need to 'earn' the right to travel at 100kph on a motorbike?

Check out my BLOG on this exact subject:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/entry.php/1780-Car-driving-skills-don-t-convert-to-motorcycle-road-riding-skills

It's not about earning the right - you need to start from scratch because car driving skills don't convert to motorcycle riding skills.


Also note that there is legislation being considered now (which as I understand it is a done deal), that means neither your age nor your existing licence classes will be considered when getting a motorcycle test.
That means a 60 year old with a full class 1 for 45 years will have to do exactly the same test as a 15 year old with zero experience when getting their motorcycle licence.

I support the change.

[MSTRS]

Also note that there is legislation being considered now (which as I understand it is a done deal), that means neither your age nor your existing licence classes will be considered when getting a motorcycle test.


They aren't now. Except for the time on each stage. Which I am a bit ambivalent about anyway. One size does not fit all.

When I sat my test in 1973, the learner stage was known as 'provisional' and you could apply to sit a full test after 6 weeks. Or extend your p/permit if you didn't feel confident. 6 weeks was pretty short, I'll agree, and most people used the extension facility at least once. I didn't. And I passed. The test was admittedly a bit easier than these days. But I digress...the point is that everyone learns at different rates, and an inflexible regime penalises some. Extending minimum periods is not necessarily a good thing.

[imdying]

Yes - it is. Dangerous, that is. Not everyone is blessed with an abundance of 70kph or under roads.
eg I live in Napier, I've just got my 6L, and I work in Hastings. I have a choice of 4 roads I can use to commute. ALL of them are 100kph.
Or Tirau/Putaruru. Or Cambridge/Hamilton. Or Waikanae/Paraparaumu. Or Inglewood/New Plymouth. Or or or.That's just tough shit for you then. In that case, you don't yet carry a license that lets you commute, you carry a license that lets you learn the skills you'll need when you start commuting.

Basically, it's exactly as if you had no license at all. You'll have to get to work the same way you did before you got your learners.


earn the right? i don't get that. what if you are forty years old, been riding cars etc for 20 to 25 years and never had a crash or anything in your life.Big deal. The physical skills are mostly not transferable, so bad news chump, you're a noob again.


why do you need to 'earn' the right to travel at 100kph on a motorbike?On the one hand, because when you have a little oopsy on a bike, you fuck yourself up, not just nudge a fence with your heart racing whilst thinking that was close. On the other, because it's the law.


yeah sure some people will battle to pick up the skill to ride a motorbike more than othersNews flash, we don't taylor laws to suit individuals. Don't like it, lobby to change it.


try drive on the motorway at 70kph when you are next on a SH1 and see what it's like (with an L plate attached), not good at all.Here's something else you can try... using your brain and not riding where you aren't legally able to.


anyway, i personally do not ride with an L plate when ***bullshit justification for choosing when and where to obey the law snipped***Or, you could just suck it up, do your time, get your full, and ride your bike whenever/wherever.

[yungatart]

The law in this case is an ass!
It is a stupid law that unnecesarily puts peoples' lives in danger.

I rode with my 'L' plate on, I did not abide by the 70 kph rule. My son was exactly the same.
Neither of us ever got stopped.

I would, however, advise most strongly against exceeding 100kph whilst on your learners. Most cops will be reasonable if you are too.

[Gibbo89]

News flash, we don't taylor laws to suit individuals. Don't like it, lobby to change it.

cheers for the news flash mate. i was sure that the govt 'taylors' laws for everyone individually.


Here's something else you can try... using your brain and not riding where you aren't legally able to.

i will continue to use my brain, but not in the way you would like me to. I await your post in the WNR thread demanding that the learners stop going over 70kph on those rides.


Or, you could just suck it up, do your time, get your full, and ride your bike whenever/wherever.

ps. i like how friendly and personable you are. i really do.

[Eyegasm]

If you ever get pulled over simply BECAUSE you were riding over 70kph on your learners, I'll give you $20.

I'll take it!

I was travelling out of Shannon at 100kph and was pulled over by a cop.

Cop: Do you know you were speeding?
Me: If you mean by the 70kph rule then yes, if you mean the 100kph then no
Cop: Just making sure you knew
Me: Cool.

That was it, no ticket or nothing. Ended up talking with him for 15 minutes while I finished my smoke.

I always have my L plate on and travel at the speed of traffic. On my own i'll just pootle at whatever I feel safe at.

[MSTRS]

That's just tough shit for you then. In that case, you don't yet carry a license that lets you commute, you carry a license that lets you learn the skills you'll need when you start commuting.
.....
Here's something else you can try... using your brain and not riding where you aren't legally able to.

Since when did a 6L NOT allow me to commute? Or ride on a road at all?
Since when was it illegal to ride a bike on a 100kph road with any class 6 licence? I think you will find that having a licence allows you to ride on the road.

It is a condition of that 6L that says don't exceed 70kph. It is the rider's choice as to whether they adhere to that (risky), or find an alternative route with a 70 or under kph limit (not always a possibility), or indeed ride at the speed of the surrounding traffic (more prudent).

This is like arguing with an idiot.

[SPP]

Meh, bang on a plate and ride with traffic. Better still, paint a big arse L on your fluoro vest.

Unless you're riding like a twat or noob then most coppers won't give a toss either. Funny that.

[superman]

Mr p.dath

I do realise you like to follow legislation and believe that the government is always correct in all of it's glory. However as stated earlier, I live on a 100km/h road, you say just don't put yourself in that risk. Drive on a slower road?! The closest 50km/h road is 10km away! Unless you wish for me to shell out for a trailer, towbar etc and take my bike on it every time I want to ride. And even if I stay within my 5km culdesac, there is a logging truck each way quite consistently travelling at 100km/h around blind corners. So to be honest I would probably like to leave. I mean there isn't much traffic but those logging trucks can shed some big pieces of bark let me tell you.

If this 70km/h really fits well legislatively as you seem to think, and that we as learners just shouldn't put ourselves at risk by travelling on 100km/h roads. Then it hasn't really taken into consideration lots of rural New Zealanders who live on 100km/h roads has it!

[st00ji]

70k limit is antiquated and retarded, end of story.

[ducatilover]

Just do 100. You seem to want to, the internet won't stop you. :facepalm:

[imdying]

I await your post in the WNR thread demanding that the learners stop going over 70kph on those rides.How other riders choose to ride is always their own business, but this guy asked the question.


ps. i like how friendly and personable you are. i really do.I'll come down to the WNR when I've got some spare time and we can have a cuddle :love:


Since when did a 6L NOT allow me to commute? Or ride on a road at all?Since your imaginary person lives in a 100km/h section...


Since when was it illegal to ride a bike on a 100kph road with any class 6 licence?Since driving grossly below the speed limit gets you a ticket for inconsiderate driving...


It is the rider's choice as to whether they adhere to that (risky), or find an alternative route with a 70 or under kph limit (not always a possibility), or indeed ride at the speed of the surrounding traffic (more prudent).Obviously; they're the only one with their hand on the throttle.


This is like arguing with an idiot.Harsh man, I don't think of you as an idiot.


70k limit is antiquated and retarded, end of story.Given the state of the roads, the quality of bikes/tyres/brakes/chassis' these days, I would tend to agree with you.

[MSTRS]

Arguing that a 6L does not legally entitle the holder to ride on any road, just makes a mockery of any reasonable argument you and p.dath might otherwise put forward.
Arguing that 'it is the law not to exceed 70kph' isn't an argument. It is blind adherence to stupidity. ie not thinking for oneself
If you meant 'safely' then I could grudgingly see your point...and still disagree.

[porky]

The rules are:
- you can't travel without an L Plate.
- you can't travel above 70km/hr.
- too slowly and you're driving inconsiderately

Therefore it seems clear that they you want you to mark yourself as a learner, and stay out of areas where the speed limit exceeds 70km/hr.

What should you do? Exactly what they want. Learn to ride your bike in <70km/hr zones, and then get your restricted license.

The law is not dangerous at all, just stay out of areas that you have not yet earnt the right to ride in. It's that fucking simple.

Yee Fucking Ha. Couldnt have put it better myself. For all you dip shits that have yet to experience a serious accident 30 kph makes a shit load of difference in the outcome when you impact a stationary object. The concept of the learner phase is to gain skills etc at a slower pace. This bollocks about "shitting ones self when traffic overtakes you" is something you need to deal with. What happens when you are doing 100 and some twat passes you at 120?? It happens. Ever ridden a push bike in a 100 kph zone???
Im thinking of starting a pole myself. Because my bike can comfortably exceed the open speed limit X 2 and i have 28 years of riding behind me, is it okay if i ride around at 160kph?
If i get enough people voting yes, i suppose that makes it okay!

[CM2005]

I watched a guy on a bike being overtaken by two 4wd's towing boats the other day, and thought, wow that 70km rule is ridiculous, wonder how many people get hurt while being overtaken like that. only time i used an L plate was on my restriced licence test, only got pulled up once about it, while i was maintaining 100km on the northern mway in auckland, and the cop just told me to go get one.

[st00ji]

Yee Fucking Ha. Couldnt have put it better myself. For all you dip shits that have yet to experience a serious accident 30 kph makes a shit load of difference in the outcome when you impact a stationary object. The concept of the learner phase is to gain skills etc at a slower pace. This bollocks about "shitting ones self when traffic overtakes you" is something you need to deal with. What happens when you are doing 100 and some twat passes you at 120?? It happens. Ever ridden a push bike in a 100 kph zone???
Im thinking of starting a pole myself. Because my bike can comfortably exceed the open speed limit X 2 and i have 28 years of riding behind me, is it okay if i ride around at 160kph?
If i get enough people voting yes, i suppose that makes it okay!

they dont tend to put stationary objects on the motorway chap

[McJim]

Ok Mr. EJK, I will ride with the L plate and go over 70km/h where appropriate. Your $20 will be much appreciated if I do get the fine. Though I agree with you that it would be very unlikely to be pulled over for that reason alone.

That's a poor bet - the fine is somat like $200 innit? I used my L plate the whole time I had my learner licence. I travelled at 100kph on the Southern Motorway in Auckland every day past heaps of police. Never been stopped, never rode like a cock though. I've heard of a lor of riders that ride like loonies and get pinged for stoopid driving and then they add the fine for breaking licence conditions after they've been stopped for all the other shit.

[MSTRS]

Yee Fucking Ha. Couldnt have put it better myself. For all you dip shits that have yet to experience a serious accident 30 kph makes a shit load of difference in the outcome when you impact a stationary object. The concept of the learner phase is to gain skills etc at a slower pace. This bollocks about "shitting ones self when traffic overtakes you" is something you need to deal with. What happens when you are doing 100 and some twat passes you at 120?? It happens. Ever ridden a push bike in a 100 kph zone???
Im thinking of starting a pole myself. Because my bike can comfortably exceed the open speed limit X 2 and i have 28 years of riding behind me, is it okay if i ride around at 160kph?
If i get enough people voting yes, i suppose that makes it okay!
What a crock of....
Of course the faster you go, the bigger the (potential) mess. By the same token, the slower you go, the more likely it is you could be rammed or run off the road.
Your example of 'a twat passing you at 120' isn't really valid in the context of the learner speed rule. There will always be a few that don't do what every one else is doing. They're the ones that stand out and risk some sort of 'special attention'. This could be a ticket for speeding, or obstructing traffic, or being the battering ram, or the battee...
The point is, 99% of road users travel at or slightly below 100kph. Disruptions to that flow are dangerous. That is the only reason why I advise a learner to maintain the speed of the surrounding traffic.
If a learner is not feeling confident or competent enough to do this, then I'd advise them to stay away from 100kph roads if at all possible. At least the busy ones, anyway. If this is not possible, perhaps due to examples I gave in an earlier post, then one can only hope that the learner will not become a victim of this STUPID rule.

[p.dath]

The primary reason (in my personal opinion) for restricting users to 70km/h as opposed to 100km/h is not the size of the mess (as has been mentioned), but the increase in response time allowed.

Learners have not yet acquired automatic skills on a motorbike. They have to use a much larger section of their conscious brain to do things. Simply put, this requires more reaction time. And travelling at 70km/h gives them that increased reaction time.

[marie_speeds]

I am guilty of removing my plate on occassion. I am more cautious in some situations compared to others. I have been pulled over once on the NW motorway and told off for not having it on. The cop was fair and gave me a warning after listening to the reason I gave for justifying my actions.
IMHO it really depends on the day what you are doing, the flow of the traffic around you, road and weather conditions, exactly how fast you are going, time riding and of course......

the mood that the cop is in when he pulls you over.:blink:

[MSTRS]

The primary reason (in my personal opinion) for restricting users to 70km/h as opposed to 100km/h is not the size of the mess (as has been mentioned), but the increase in response time allowed.

Learners have not yet acquired automatic skills on a motorbike. They have to use a much larger section of their conscious brain to do things. Simply put, this requires more reaction time. And travelling at 70km/h gives them that increased reaction time.


Finally! A reasoned response. But I still don't agree...
Sure, things happen quicker at a higher speed and require more concentration to process. Using your own argument against you, if learner and traffic are travelling at the same speed, the learner is not having to also deal with impatient motorists doing silly shit around/past them. Which frees up part of what they must concentrate on.

[imdying]

Arguing that a 6L does not legally entitle the holder to ride on any road, just makes a mockery of any reasonable argument you and p.dath might otherwise put forward.I don't see why, it is a bit of a grey area... you are legally entitled to ride on any road, but on roads that have a speed limit of over 70km/hr, you run the risk of copping a ticket for inconsiderate drivnig.


Arguing that 'it is the law not to exceed 70kph' isn't an argument. It is blind adherence to stupidity. ie not thinking for oneselfNo, that simply isn't true. Dreaming up reasons why you think this guy should break the law simply because you disagree with said law... now that is stupidity itself. Not acknowledging the intent of the law is raise the stupidity bar even higher. There is a reason for it being in place (regardless of whether you in your infinite wisdom believe that reasoning to be outdated), and it is in place. Telling this guy he should definitely go and break that law, more stupidity... Really, all things considered, almost everything you have spouted in this thread is complete stupidity.

[imdying]

Using your own argument against you, if learner and traffic are travelling at the same speed, the learner is not having to also deal with impatient motorists doing silly shit around/past them. Which frees up part of what they must concentrate on.Yep, which they can do in areas with a limit of 70km/hr or less for three months till they get their restricted (or whatever the current rules are).

[sunhuntin]

The primary reason (in my personal opinion) for restricting users to 70km/h as opposed to 100km/h is not the size of the mess (as has been mentioned), but the increase in response time allowed.

Learners have not yet acquired automatic skills on a motorbike. They have to use a much larger section of their conscious brain to do things. Simply put, this requires more reaction time. And travelling at 70km/h gives them that increased reaction time.

following that argument, should learner car drivers also be restricted to 70k?

[imdying]

following that argument, should learner car drivers also be restricted to 70k?There is a certain amount of logic in that for sure. Also restrict them to cars that can't accelerate too fast, for the same reason.

It's a shame we can't all just relax and enjoy life a bit more, problem solved :sunny:


Gibbo, was that you a talked to last night at the Carlton Corner lights? Zeal with a little bit of fading on the plastic scoop at the side of the tank?

[MSTRS]

I don't see why, it is a bit of a grey area... you are legally entitled to ride on any road, but on roads that have a speed limit of over 70km/hr, you run the risk of copping a ticket for inconsiderate drivnig.

No, that simply isn't true. Dreaming up reasons why you think this guy should break the law simply because you disagree with said law... now that is stupidity itself. Not acknowledging the intent of the law is raise the stupidity bar even higher. There is a reason for it being in place (regardless of whether you in your infinite wisdom believe that reasoning to be outdated), and it is in place. Telling this guy he should definitely go and break that law, more stupidity... Really, all things considered, almost everything you have spouted in this thread is complete stupidity.


Yep, which they can do in areas with a limit of 70km/hr or less for three months till they get their restricted (or whatever the current rules are).
<img src=http://www.spartan5.com/images/fail_boat.jpg>

Have another read of posts 60 and 63.

[MSTRS]

There is a certain amount of logic in that for sure. Also restrict them to cars that can't accelerate too fast, for the same reason.


Agreed. A learner is still a learner, regardless of vehicle type...if the speed/concentration/reaction time-thing argument is to fly.

[Gibbo89]

Gibbo, was that you a talked to last night at the Carlton Corner lights? Zeal with a little bit of fading on the plastic scoop at the side of the tank?

Nah mate, wasn't me. I hope you didn't unleash on him thinking it was me lol. My zeal is the same color as in that wee avatar thing, mine has no fading on it.
She just needs her seat recovered :yes:

[Gibbo89]

I love how these threads get into heated discussions, probably to the point where the OP fella has probably quit KB :facepalm:

Tonight on the WNR (if the weather doesn't ruin it) I am going to contemplate wearing my L plate and keep up with the bike in front of me.

Yes I'm technically a bad ass for going faster than 70kph (once a week, on Wednesdays). But I also enjoy riding with fellow bikers and do not want to be the one or two at the back who can only go 70kph. I do not find going 100kph daunting on my bike, I do not speed into corners at the limits of my bike (never scraped the pegs :blink:).

But the way I view it is, if I am doing nothing wrong without my L plate i.e. going 100kph and not doing stupid shit, compared to having my L plate on, not doing stupid shit and going 100kph. What is likely to attract more attention?

[imdying]

Have another read of posts 60 and 63.They were idiotic the first time round, I have no reason to believe that has changed?


Nah mate, wasn't me. I hope you didn't unleash on him thinking it was me lol.Nah, we just enjoyed biking together briefly at a set of lights :)


Tonight on the WNR (if the weather doesn't ruin it) I am going to contemplate wearing my L plate and keep up with the bike in front of me.

But the way I view it is, if I am doing nothing wrong without my L plate i.e. going 100kph and not doing stupid shit, compared to having my L plate on, not doing stupid shit and going 100kph. What is likely to attract more attention?For sure, it's your personal choice. You might get a ticket for it, but that was your personal choice too.

[Gibbo89]

For sure, it's your personal choice. You might get a ticket for it, but that was your personal choice too.

was? you make it sound like it's a definite thing haha. are you a copper in your spare time or something? :sick:

[imdying]

was? you make it sound like it's a definite thing haha. are you a copper in your spare time or something? :sick:If you get a ticket, then it's a was.

I don't necessarily believe the law it setup well the way it is, but currently, it's still the law. Given that, it is irresponsible for us to advise learners to ignore it. It's beyond egotistically arrogant for a site riding mentor to advise learners to actively break the law.

[Gibbo89]

If you get a ticket, then it's a was.

I don't necessarily believe the law it setup well the way it is, but currently, it's still the law. Given that, it is irresponsible for us to advise learners to ignore it. It's beyond egotistically arrogant for a site riding mentor to advise learners to actively break the law.

ooo I see, the mentor in you is what's spurring you on to debate this so hotly.

Are you sure you do not want to be egotistically arrogant? I bet you it's pretty tempting. :innocent:

[p.dath]

Finally! A reasoned response. But I still don't agree...
Sure, things happen quicker at a higher speed and require more concentration to process. Using your own argument against you, if learner and traffic are travelling at the same speed, the learner is not having to also deal with impatient motorists doing silly shit around/past them. Which frees up part of what they must concentrate on.

The two biggest classes of motorcycle accidents (by a long way) are loss of control on a corner, and a vehicle pulling out in front of you from a side street.

If both cases, a reduced speed gives you more time to react. The 70km/h restriction simply addresses the greater majority of accident cases.

Allowing learners to ride at 100km/h would reduce the risk for maybe 10% of the accident causes, but increase the risk for the majority of the remaining accident types.


following that argument, should learner car drivers also be restricted to 70k?

A learner inside of a car is offered a far greater degree of protection that a learner on top of a motorbike.

[baptist]

Might not a law change allowing learners to ride bigger bikes also encourage (if that is the right word) them to break the 70kmh speed limit? A bigger heavier bike will be more comfortable at a higher speed. Personally as a learner (while I am not saying I never go over the speed limit) I do avoid motorways simply because of the 70kmh rule, even if it was raised to 85kmh it would be better.

I can accept the reasoning of the current limit as a way of allowing more time, less distance, to stop in as valid but not sure it is a justifiable, surely it would be better to increase the legal following distance requirements (two seconds to three seconds) for learners but allow them to keep up a speed that avoids some of the overtaking and cutting in that you see occuring.

[p.dath]

This is the link to the 2010 summary of motorcycle accidents by the ministry of transport:
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-crash-fact-sheet-2010.pdf

Some things to note immediately. 155 riders died in rural areas, versus 58 in urban areas.
So the earler argument about it being safer to ride at 100km/h because it is a rural road is in fact the exact opposite - your about 2.5 times more likely to be killed.

And it seems likely the reason why more riders die on rural roads is simple because they are travelling faster.

The vast majority of those accidents listed would not have been resolved by the learner travelling 30km/h faster than they should have been.

[superman]

This is the link to the 2010 summary of motorcycle accidents by the ministry of transport:
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-crash-fact-sheet-2010.pdf

Some things to note immediately. 155 riders died in rural areas, versus 58 in urban areas.
So the earler argument about it being safer to ride at 100km/h because it is a rural road is in fact the exact opposite - your about 2.5 times more likely to be killed.

And it seems likely the reason why more riders die on rural roads is simple because they are travelling faster.

The vast majority of those accidents listed would not have been resolved by the learner travelling 30km/h faster than they should have been.

You could not simply put that to driving faster! Rural roads have a bucket load of corners you cannot drive over 70km/h around. So making the statement that 100km/h is the likely reason is a leap of faith.

Rural roads are vastly more unpredictable, I bet all those deaths will be from people who usually ride urban and think I'll just go for a nice pleasant ride in the quiet country and from the start have a perception of an easy going ride.

How many of those deaths are from learners?

The main reason those figures are their is probably because most bikers live in urban areas therefore they are good at handling the situation they are used to. As would rural drivers.

It's getting out of that comfort situation and not expecting a flock of sheep around the corner or not seeing the poor quality bumpy chip seal.

But putting all that into just "speed" sounds almost like a police campaign!

[MSTRS]

They were idiotic the first time round, I have no reason to believe that has changed?


Another fail! You seem to have trouble with comprehension.
I will try again. I can not promise words of one syl...a...bil - but I will try.

I advise (fuck) new riders (fuck) to ride at the speed of the rest of the traffic (fuck - I give up). If there is no other traffic, or the road is sparsely trafficked, then by all means observe the 70kph restriction. Most of us know that it is not possible to travel any distance, outside of a built up area, without encountering a 100kph zone, so I encourage commonsense. I also advise against riding well to the left. That only encourages lanesplitting by cars, at highway speeds, which is a frightening thing for a lot of riders but especially newbies.
Auckland newbies can avoid the motorway (SH1), there are options like Gt Sth Rd which runs the length of the place for instance, but westies might be fucked.
Welly is similar. OK from Porirua and southern suburbs, but Valley people are stuffed.
Is there even a motorway in ChCh?
In short, avoid motorways, and heavily trafficked 100kph roads, if possible. If not, ride at the traffic speed.

I'd also comment that every single law we have was enacted with good intentions. It does not follow that every law is a good one. Or through changing society, remains a good one.

[MSTRS]

It's beyond egotistically arrogant for a site riding mentor to advise learners to actively break the law.

Utter crap!!
I'm not there to enforce laws. I'm there to advise individuals, who want it, on how to ride safely.

[superman]

MSTRS you are a GC. :yes:

I will most probably then ride through Pakuranga etc up the east side of Auckland till Sylvia Park. Then find myself Great South Road and get to uni that way. I imagine being a biker that lights don't become as much of a slow down as they do to drivers since you can just pop to the front of the lights each time they go red. Plus you still get the traffic filtering experience when this happens for my future motorway expeditions.

Yay for Auckland traffic, bring those bloody rail lines in Mr. Brown! And make the train cost cheaper than driving a car this time... But still more expensive than for a motorbike :yes:

Then Auckland will have a lot more bikers and be better off because of it.

[MSTRS]

MSTRS you are a GC. :yes:

I will most probably then ride through Pakuranga etc up the east side of Auckland till Sylvia Park. Then find myself Great South Road and get to uni that way. I imagine being a biker that lights don't become as much of a slow down as they do to drivers since you can just pop to the front of the lights each time they go red. Plus you still get the traffic filtering experience when this happens for my future motorway expeditions.

Yay for Auckland traffic, bring those bloody rail lines in Mr. Brown! And make the train cost cheaper than driving a car this time... But still more expensive than for a motorbike :yes:

Then Auckland will have a lot more bikers and be better off because of it.

Good man.
Since I don't know you, or your riding ability, I'll refrain from advising you personally on lane splitting. In general terms, for newbies, I'd say Don't.

[superman]

I'm in no hurry to lane split.

And I'm hoping that when I make my timetable for uni next year to avoid peak hour times so that I will never feel the need to filter. At least not for a while.

I always pulled as far to the center when I saw a bike splitting behind me, even before I even considered becoming a biker. Other cars seem to move closer to the car next to them to try and crush the biker! :shit:

Obviously pure jealousy for wishing to get through the traffic and the emasculation gets to some drivers quite terribly.

[imdying]

I advise (fuck) new riders (fuck) to......break the law so they're safer riding where they shouldn't be, rather than advising them follow the law and avoid riding where it isn't safe for them to do so legally. An example of which is:

In short, avoid motorways, and heavily trafficked 100kph roads, if possible. If not, ride at the traffic speed."If not"!? Of course it's possible, just like it is possible to obey the law when you haven't got a license at all. What you advise is no different than:

If you haven't got a license, avoid areas likely to be policed, if possible. If not, ride sensibly and hope you don't get nicked.I'm so glad we have mentors like you who are able to tell us which laws we should and shouldn't follow, and under what conditions.

[MSTRS]

In case it escaped your attention, the road code is there to teach the road rules, traffic cops are there to teach the error of ones ways in the legal sense, and mentors are there to help someone who wants assistance with some part of their riding.
Where newbies are concerned, I (me personally, I can't speak for other mentors) will always help them to learn riding practices that will help them to remain as safe as possible on the roads.

[imdying]

Where newbies are concerned, I (me personally, I can't speak for other mentors) will always help them to learn riding practices that will help them to remain as safe as possible on the roads.And the law be damned, regardless of whether they would be safer or not simply by following the law... gotcha :msn-wink:

[MSTRS]

It really is a waste of time 'debating' this with you...
It is not safe practice to ride significantly slower than the traffic flow. Which is what this STUPID condition insists on. If the situation can't be avoided, leaving a choice of breaking this condition or not, the safer option is the one I'd advise. Safety is the desired outcome, and the end justifies the means.
You will have noticed (well, I hope so) that I don't condone ignoring laws willynilly...just this one.

[imdying]

As I said previously...

I'm so glad we have mentors like you who are able to tell us which laws we should and shouldn't follow, and under what conditions.

[yungatart]

As I recall it, when those 5 learner rider conditions were brought in, the open road speed limit of the day was 80 kph. 10 kph was then a reasonable speed differential. However TPTB increased the open road limit, and some numpty (actually a whole parliament of numpties) forgot about the poor little learner motorcyclist now facing a 30 kph speed differential.

Dangerous? You bet!
Stupid? Ditto!

Would I obey it, or advise anyone else to? Hell. no!

Imdying and P. Dath grow a brain...even one between you would be helpful!

[imdying]

imdying and P. Dath grow a brain...even one between you would be helpful!Fuck off hoe, you'll know when I want your opinion.

[yungatart]

Fuck off hoe, you'll know when I want your opinion.

I didn't realise I needed to be asked for my opinion.
Open forum and all that....didn't see anyone ask you directly for your opinion but I do note that you have given it on several occasions anyway.

I raised a valid point which, despite your nasty little comments, still stands.

[MSTRS]

I raised a valid point which, despite your nasty little comments, still stands.

You did. And a good point it was too.
One can only wonder whether your 'detractor' would be arguing for a lowering of the learner speed if the 2 had gone up together and the differential hadn't changed... probably not, since it would be law and the lawmakers don't get it wrong, do they?
But no, in time-honoured KB fashion, the thinking cells are on holiday, and personal insults get trotted out instead.

[McJim]

But no, in time-honoured KB fashion, the thinking cells are on holiday, and personal insults get trotted out instead.
Not a holiday - bloke is a brain donor :rofl:

[ducatilover]

Fuck off hoe, you'll know when I want your opinion.

I have met her and she looks nothing like this 223777

[baptist]

Fuck off hoe, you'll know when I want your opinion.

Very nice comment... not, do you kiss your mum or kids with that mouth??:no:

[yungatart]

I have met her and she looks nothing like this

No, I'm not that slender any more :blink: