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Ixion
12th June 2005, 11:47
I just found this.

Want to be the fastest rider on the road ? (http://www.mikewaite.co.uk/factsheets/)

I think that anyone who could completely put into practice what he suggests would be one of the fastest, safest riders on the road.

And I don't think that you'd get better credentials for training bikers how to ride fast AND safe.

One thing he recommends differs from what I've always done.

I've always (tried) to brake on the approach to a corner, then hold a constant throttle on the entry, and accelerate from the apex out.

He recommends accelerating from the entry (ie throtle on all through the corner). I'm going to have to rethink my technique.

Any thoughts on this . What's safest, not what's fastest on the track. We're talking road riding here not racing.

eliot-ness
12th June 2005, 14:33
If I can see the whole corner on the approach that's the way I do it. Usually by scrubbing speed off by changing down with sometimes just a dab on the brakes, If I can't see the exit then I use your approach, start to accelerate from the apex. Both ways are easy on a tourer with good engine braking and plenty of low down torque. couldn't answer for the sports bike riders though, possibly a totally different technique. Looking forward to reading their methods.
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Just when you think you have all the answers, somebody comes up with a new question

FROSTY
12th June 2005, 14:41
I think maybee what you are DOING and what you thing you are doing are different old son.
Even on the road the less time you spend in transition the better.
By that I mean NO throttle NO brakes -sorta the whole bike unloaded.
I'd suggest by accelleration this bloke means applying SOME throttle.
As an example -
Im coming into a corner -I see my braking point. I turn in. I wind on 1/4 throttle to load the chassis up and get some drive -I sight the exit and wind her up to full throttle.
If I snap the throttle open just after I turned in Id be on my ass on the road.

Ixion
12th June 2005, 14:45
I think maybee what you are DOING and what you thing you are doing are different old son.
Even on the road the less time you spend in transition the better.
By that I mean NO throttle NO brakes -sorta the whole bike unloaded.
I'd suggest by accelleration this bloke means applying SOME throttle.
As an example -
Im coming into a corner -I see my braking point. I turn in. I wind on 1/4 throttle to load the chassis up and get some drive -I sight the exit and wind her up to full throttle.
If I snap the throttle open just after I turned in Id be on my ass on the road.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. Downchange, brake as necessary , then enough throttle to keep the engine just pulling the wheel - so it's not actually decelerating , but not really looking to gain any speed, until the apex then roll throttle on.

He seems to imply full rollon as he goes in - though I may be misreading that.

FROSTY
12th June 2005, 14:53
Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. Downchange, brake as necessary , then enough throttle to keep the engine just pulling the wheel - so it's not actually decelerating , but not really looking to gain any speed, until the apex then roll throttle on.

He seems to imply full rollon as he goes in - though I may be misreading that.
I apsolutely 100% promice he doesnt mean that. Unless youre on a totally gutless piece of crap (Like I am) If ya do that You'll end up on ya ass
Unless he's advercating (sp) the modern sportbike method--Point and squirt
Ya brake hard -snap her over hard -straighten up -and bang the throttle on in a straight line.
Doesn't read that way to me though.

Ixion
12th June 2005, 15:19
I apsolutely 100% promice he doesnt mean that. Unless youre on a totally gutless piece of crap (Like I am) If ya do that You'll end up on ya ass
Unless he's advercating (sp) the modern sportbike method--Point and squirt
Ya brake hard -snap her over hard -straighten up -and bang the throttle on in a straight line.
Doesn't read that way to me though.

No, on re-reading it, I think he's meaning what we all (I think ) are saying/doing. Brake to get speed set, then roll on enough throttle to just keep the bike driving (so it's not on the overrun). I think that's what he means by accelerate. Then from the apex (or when you can see the exit, the "get out of corner" point, anyway), give it whatever it takes.

'Tis a bit odd though, because I would have said that anyone who's actually ever GONE through an open road corner with the throttle completely closed would not want to do it again. Really weird feeling.

But off road you do it that way . Brake , slide, adjust, point, and hammer it .Straight of full brake onto full throttle. (Corse, sometimes it's brake,slide, fall off. But that's another matter)

Completely different situation but.

I dunno, I'll have a little play.

I think it maybe all comes down to what you define "accelerate" as

And after all these years a lot of it's so ingrained and instinctive that it's hard to figure anyway

Two Smoker
12th June 2005, 16:33
Im not the fastest road rider... but for me, its all THROTTLE, THROTTLE, THROTTLE!!!! I dont think on the road, i observe, predict and react

Ixion
12th June 2005, 16:52
Im not the fastest road rider... but for me, its all THROTTLE, THROTTLE, THROTTLE!!!! I dont think on the road, i observe, predict and react

So, d'you go straight from braking to full/hard throttle ? And if so, is the throttle on point at the entry into the corner? Or do you do the brake-right-through-the -beginning of the corner approach?

XP@
13th June 2005, 00:21
Would like to see that guy ride!
rep points for the link :)

For the record on the bend, it depends if I can see my way out or not. If I can't then I hold the point where i am accelerating to maintain speed, then open up when the exit is clear. If i can see the exit then i am on the gas right after the brakes.

Interesting point here is you actually have to accellerate to maintain speed. Because with constant accelleration in a bend you will drop speed, traction and contact point distance... seen but do not understand the formula. but basically if you try mantain the same throttle your speed will drop therefore you have to accellerate to stay the same speed. the best place to see it is on a long sweeper, try maintain the throttle in the same position and see what happens...

Ixion
13th June 2005, 00:29
Would like to see that guy ride!
rep points for the link :)

For the record on the bend, it depends if I can see my way out or not. If I can't then I hold the point where i am accelerating to maintain speed, then open up when the exit is clear. If i can see the exit then i am on the gas right after the brakes.

Interesting point here is you actually have to accellerate to maintain speed. Because with constant accelleration in a bend you will drop speed, traction and contact point distance... seen but do not understand the formula. but basically if you try mantain the same throttle your speed will drop therefore you have to accellerate to stay the same speed. the best place to see it is on a long sweeper, try maintain the throttle in the same position and see what happens...

That seems logical, because if you are cornering there is a lateral force , being resisted by your tyres (if the lateral force becomes too great you lowside). So as the sideways force is constantly draining energy you will have to increase energy by applying accelerater

And now I've written all that, I don't think that it can be right. Because it would imply that if you tried to ride round in a circle, you would have to keep accelerating. Eventually you would be on full throttle, and start slowing down and eventually stop. Which is obviously silly.

Meh, it's too late at night to think about physics.

Thanks for the rep.

Jantar
13th June 2005, 01:00
That seems logical, because if you are cornering there is a lateral force , being resisted by your tyres (if the lateral force becomes too great you lowside). So as the sideways force is constantly draining energy you will have to increase energy by applying accelerater

And now I've written all that, I don't think that it can be right. Because it would imply that if you tried to ride round in a circle, you would have to keep accelerating. Eventually you would be on full throttle, and start slowing down and eventually stop. Which is obviously silly.

Meh, it's too late at night to think about physics.

Thanks for the rep.

You ARE right Ixion. In order to change direction you must accelerate. Remember that accelleration in related to change in velocity, not change in speed (a=dv/dt). And velocity has both speed and direction vectors.

It isn't neccessary to go to full throttle, but it is neccessary to have more throttle than would be needed to maintain speed in a straight line. The more lean, the greater the throttle setting needed.

Two Smoker
13th June 2005, 07:15
So, d'you go straight from braking to full/hard throttle ? And if so, is the throttle on point at the entry into the corner? Or do you do the brake-right-through-the -beginning of the corner approach?

On the RG, i dont use brakes...:weird:

In racing, I brake pretty much right upto the apex, or just before the apex, and on the 400 snap the throttle open...

On the road on the 600, brake before the corner, get a bit of gas on, then wind it open...

pritch
13th June 2005, 14:16
So, d'you go straight from braking to full/hard throttle ?

Eh?

As I understand it the correct front/rear weight distribution while cornering is 40/60. To get that won't take much throttle but it will take some.

Oscar
13th June 2005, 14:46
No, on re-reading it, I think he's meaning what we all (I think ) are saying/doing. Brake to get speed set, then roll on enough throttle to just keep the bike driving (so it's not on the overrun). I think that's what he means by accelerate. Then from the apex (or when you can see the exit, the "get out of corner" point, anyway), give it whatever it takes.

'Tis a bit odd though, because I would have said that anyone who's actually ever GONE through an open road corner with the throttle completely closed would not want to do it again. Really weird feeling.

But off road you do it that way . Brake , slide, adjust, point, and hammer it .Straight of full brake onto full throttle. (Corse, sometimes it's brake,slide, fall off. But that's another matter)

Completely different situation but.

I dunno, I'll have a little play.

I think it maybe all comes down to what you define "accelerate" as

And after all these years a lot of it's so ingrained and instinctive that it's hard to figure anyway

Off road riding is very similar to MotoGP/500GP - brake late and deep, (slide) point, accelerate. That's why so many ex-dirt riders have been 500GP Champions.

125/250GP - Corner speed is king: brake late but maintain corner speed, accelerate early...

Ixion
13th June 2005, 15:01
Eh?

As I understand it the correct front/rear weight distribution while cornering is 40/60. To get that won't take much throttle but it will take some.

Strange. I'm jolly sure I replied to this earlier. It seems to ahve disappeared. Oh well



In racing, I brake pretty much right upto the apex, or just before the apex, and on the 400 snap the throttle open...


I think the weight distribution thing is the reason for the "just enough throttle to keep the bike balanced and under power" approach

But there is an alternative, as described by Mr Twosmoker. Brake all the way in and hammer it from the apex. All on or all off.

Racers use it, can't say I'm too keen to try on the road.

But that may just prove that I'm a conservative fuddy duddy.

Gravel uses the same thing - brake all the way in , skid (for me, fall off about this point), and full hammer to straighten up and power out.

Dunno. Wish Mr Bykeycop would comment. Those guys would know the best and safest way if anyone would.

Oscar
13th June 2005, 15:07
Strange. I'm jolly sure I replied to this earlier. It seems to ahve disappeared. Oh well



I think the weight distribution thing is the reason for the "just enough throttle to keep the bike balanced and under power" approach

But there is an alternative, as described by Mr Twosmoker. Brake all the way in and hammer it from the apex. All on or all off.

Racers use it, can't say I'm too keen to try on the road.

But that may just prove that I'm a conservative fuddy duddy.

Gravel uses the same thing - brake all the way in , skid (for me, fall off about this point), and full hammer to straighten up and power out.

Dunno. Wish Mr Bykeycop would comment. Those guys would know the best and safest way if anyone would.

I use that technique on gravel - brake in a straight line (on my XR400, you could get the back wheel lifting off on dry surfaces), turn/slide and gas it. Some guys use the speedway version - hit the back brake and chuck it sideways into the apex, it's more fun, but I don't think it's any faster, though.

Motu
13th June 2005, 15:15
Re the bike slowing in corners - you can feel this on a small bike,the bike will actualy slow down as you go through the corner...on my C50 I got to feel every slightlest thing that would slow it down...kinda like all those hills you find on a flat road when on a push bike.

I've ridden dirt bikes on the road for over 30 yrs,so I guess that's kinda influenced my riding somewhat - off road (when I could ride fast) it was overbraking to the point of rear wheel chatter and hop,slide and turn as Oscar says and nail it,never letting that rear wheel hook up.So on the road I chop down a gear and toss it in late,then try to get back on the gas as soon as,but it's only just not off throttle....pick it up a little at a time and feed it in,keeping it all in balance.If you don't ride very fast you have time for little daliances in the corners....did I leave the soldering iron on?.....oops,miss the possum....more throttle.....I think I'll weed around the tomatoes when I get back home.....now hard on the gas as we pick the bike up and go!

Oscar
13th June 2005, 15:20
Re the bike slowing in corners - you can feel this on a small bike,the bike will actualy slow down as you go through the corner...on my C50 I got to feel every slightlest thing that would slow it down...kinda like all those hills you find on a flat road when on a push bike.

I've ridden dirt bikes on the road for over 30 yrs,so I guess that's kinda influenced my riding somewhat - off road (when I could ride fast) it was overbraking to the point of rear wheel chatter and hop,slide and turn as Oscar says and nail it,never letting that rear wheel hook up.So on the road I chop down a gear and toss it in late,then try to get back on the gas as soon as,but it's only just not off throttle....pick it up a little at a time and feed it in,keeping it all in balance.If you don't ride very fast you have time for little daliances in the corners....did I leave the soldering iron on?.....oops,miss the possum....more throttle.....I think I'll weed around the tomatoes when I get back home.....now hard on the gas as we pick the bike up and go!

I feckin' love riding fast on gravel.
There's a series of corners on Waitatuna Valley Road (between Te Uku and Te Pahu), that are perfect. About six "s" bends all with camber changes, so you're sliding up or down as well as sideways...

My XR400 was perfect, the LC4 is still abit of handful.

XP@
13th June 2005, 15:57
I often don't follow two types of rider...

the point and squirt, who I don't seem to follow for long cos i try and keep smooth as and end up passing them cos they messed up whilst concentrating on taking the corner as fast as possible and forgot they were on the road.

The other type of rider is the ultra smooth who has the air of ultimate control... they leave me for dust...

Short of joining the cops, how do i become one of the ultra smooth?
Sounds like reading mike waite's advice I would stand a chance. but by trying to race on the road i will be eating my own dust.

Oscar
13th June 2005, 16:02
I often don't follow two types of rider...

the point and squirt, who I don't seem to follow for long cos i try and keep smooth as and end up passing them cos they messed up whilst concentrating on taking the corner as fast as possible and forgot they were on the road.

The other type of rider is the ultra smooth who has the air of ultimate control... they leave me for dust...

Short of joining the cops, how do i become one of the ultra smooth?
Sounds like reading mike waite's advice I would stand a chance. but by trying to race on the road i will be eating my own dust.


As an ex-dirty racer, when I ride on the road, I'm always banging it down too many gears when cornering. Because it's so busy in the corner I figure I must be going fast. I find if I concentrate on leaving it in a higher gear when cornering, it's smoother and faster.

Motu
13th June 2005, 16:03
I feckin' love riding fast on gravel.
There's a series of corners on Waitatuna Valley Road (between Te Uku and Te Pahu), that are perfect. About six "s" bends all with camber changes, so you're sliding up or down as well as sideways...

My XR400 was perfect, the LC4 is still abit of handful.
I think I know those corners,I used to straighten them out on the XLV,it would get a few millimetres of air time as it launched off the camber,then come down like it had done a 3 metre jump - that bike reminded me of the hippo's doing the Dance of the Hours on Fantasia.With light weight and zappy 2 stroke power the DT230 is like a kitten on a polished floor on gravel.

Oscar
13th June 2005, 16:11
I think I know those corners,I used to straighten them out on the XLV,it would get a few millimetres of air time as it launched off the camber,then come down like it had done a 3 metre jump - that bike reminded me of the hippo's doing the Dance of the Hours on Fantasia.With light weight and zappy 2 stroke power the DT230 is like a kitten on a polished floor on gravel.


Hutch and I were thinking about a day ride to Marakopa - wanna come?

Motu
13th June 2005, 16:54
Hutch and I were thinking about a day ride to Marakopa - wanna come?

Just done the shift this weekend (phew!) but ''MY'' shed is full of house stuff,once I claim it as my own the bikes will be based at Huntly and I'll be into riding my territory...Marakopa sound like where I need to go.

Oscar
13th June 2005, 17:48
Just done the shift this weekend (phew!) but ''MY'' shed is full of house stuff,once I claim it as my own the bikes will be based at Huntly and I'll be into riding my territory...Marakopa sound like where I need to go.

This Saturday or Next?
We could met at Ngaruawahia and go down the Waingaro Road...

Oscar
14th June 2005, 09:57
Just done the shift this weekend (phew!) but ''MY'' shed is full of house stuff,once I claim it as my own the bikes will be based at Huntly and I'll be into riding my territory...Marakopa sound like where I need to go.


Jeez Motu, this is looking like an old fashion thread hijacking... :nono:






Let's take it to Havana :rofl:

Motu
14th June 2005, 10:29
Jeez Motu, this is looking like an old fashion thread hijacking... :nono:






Let's take it to Havana :rofl:

Yeah,wish my work 'puter would post images....I'm gunna be spending the next few weekends claiming ''MY'' space (a single car garage,but I've put up with smaller - painted the walls and floor,got a floor anchor and alarm so the bikes stay mine in brown town) I might make a couple of destressing last rides north seeing as the bikes are still in Auckland.

Hey,I'm staying on topic man - what do you think of Kenny's corner entry here?

Oscar
14th June 2005, 10:45
Hey,I'm staying on topic man - what do you think of Kenny's corner entry here?

The big wuss coulda got lower... :rofl:

vifferman
14th June 2005, 10:53
Interesting point here is you actually have to accellerate to maintain speed. Because with constant accelleration in a bend you will drop speed, traction and contact point distance... seen but do not understand the formula. but basically if you try mantain the same throttle your speed will drop therefore you have to accellerate to stay the same speed.
One reason for this is that with the bike leaned over, the effective rolling radius of the tyre is reduced (think about it....).

Oscar
14th June 2005, 11:08
One reason for this is that with the bike leaned over, the effective rolling radius of the tyre is reduced (think about it....).


Um, with a smaller radius (and everything else being equal), the gearing would be higher, not lower.

The probable reason is that you're either in a lower gear and/or you have the gyroscopic force of the turn (i.e. the mass of the bike wants to continue in a straight line) creating drag...

Ixion
14th June 2005, 11:17
Um, with a smaller radius (and everything else being equal), the gearing would be higher, not lower.

The probable reason is that you're either in a lower gear and/or you have the gyroscopic force of the turn (i.e. the mass of the bike wants to continue in a straight line) creating drag...

With the engine running at a constant speed (and thus the tyre turning at a constant speed) if you reduce the effective diameter of the tyre you will go fewer yards per minute. Same no of revolutions, but less distance per revolution.

So in order to maintain a constant bike speed you will have to increase the revolutions at the tyre which will usually mean accelerating.

But also the leaning tyre forms a conic section so it will roll left or right (which is actually what makes you go round the corner). That introduces a horizontal vector in addition to the original two (down and forward). That means you have to supply more energy to keep the same speed on the forward vector. (which I think is a fancy way of saying that it creates drag, as you said more simply. I just like using fancy words like vector.)

Oscar
14th June 2005, 11:22
With the engine running at a constant speed (and thus the tyre turning at a constant speed) if you reduce the effective diameter of the tyre you will go fewer yards per minute. Same no of revolutions, but less distance per revolution.

So in order to maintain a constant bike speed you will have to increase the revolutions at the tyre which will usually mean accelerating.

But also the leaning tyre forms a conic section so it will roll left or right (which is actually what makes you go round the corner). That introduces a horizontal vector in addition to the original two (down and forward). That means you have to supply more energy to keep the same speed on the forward vector. (which I think is a fancy way of saying that it creates drag, as you said more simply. I just like using fancy words like vector.)

So at a constant throttle setting (and everything else being equal)which has a higher speed, a bike with a 17' rear or one with an 18'?

Racey Rider
14th June 2005, 11:22
If I snap the throttle open just after I turned in,
Id be on my ass on the road 'again'.

you forgot the word, again. :whistle:

Ixion
14th June 2005, 11:39
So at a constant throttle setting (and everything else being equal)which has a higher speed, a bike with a 17' rear or one with an 18'?

Constant throttle is a bit uncertain. The 18" will want to go faster, but the engine at that throttle setting may not be developing enough power for the higher speed (ie fitting the 18" would make the revs drop)

At a constant RPM the 18" will go faster. So to make the 17" drive the bike at the same speed as the 18" you would have to turn it faster . It doesn't go as far down the road per rev.

Which is the point. In a turn the effective radius is less. So for the same RPM you will not go as many yards. You will be slower. So to maintain the same speed you have to increase the revs the tyre does.

Extrem and absurd example. Lay the bike on its side, with the tyre touching the ground, motor running , in gear. Bet you it doesn't move forward at all, it will just slowly go round and round . Start picking it up, as it comes upright it will start to gain forward momentum.

Oscar
14th June 2005, 13:54
Constant throttle is a bit uncertain. The 18" will want to go faster, but the engine at that throttle setting may not be developing enough power for the higher speed (ie fitting the 18" would make the revs drop)

At a constant RPM the 18" will go faster. So to make the 17" drive the bike at the same speed as the 18" you would have to turn it faster . It doesn't go as far down the road per rev.

Which is the point. In a turn the effective radius is less. So for the same RPM you will not go as many yards. You will be slower. So to maintain the same speed you have to increase the revs the tyre does.

Extrem and absurd example. Lay the bike on its side, with the tyre touching the ground, motor running , in gear. Bet you it doesn't move forward at all, it will just slowly go round and round . Start picking it up, as it comes upright it will start to gain forward momentum.

Very interesting, and why didn't I pay more attention in 7th Form physics (or in fact attend more classes).

However in practice the best way to increase my corner speed is to get to where I would normally brake and say "God save the queen", and THEN brake. The other thing I mentioned earlier was not to change down too many gears...

Wolf
5th July 2005, 09:06
I've always (tried) to brake on the approach to a corner, then hold a constant throttle on the entry, and accelerate from the apex out.

He recommends accelerating from the entry (ie throtle on all through the corner). I'm going to have to rethink my technique.

Any thoughts on this . What's safest, not what's fastest on the track. We're talking road riding here not racing.
Dad always told me to accelerate from the entry - "power through the corner". "Lose speed on the approach, gain it as you power around the corner."

One day I was giving a GT50 (no typo) absolute death trying to keep up with my uncle in his V8 on a twisty road. I had it at full throttle when I entered the corner, meaning I had nothing in reserve to give it to "power through" - Bloody terrifying, nearly ended in grief, one of the worst cornerings of my "riding career" - never made that stupid mistake again.

Had been through that same corner before a lot faster on a bigger bike with plenty of throttle in reserve - came out a damn-sight faster than I went in.

Wolf
5th July 2005, 11:25
A clarification:

When I corner, I roll the power on - gently at first and then more firmly. This counters the slowing caused by the change in diameter as the bike leans, feeds power to counter inertia and force a vector change (go round corner, not straight into paddock). I generally aim for as smooth a corner as possible, even if I'm riding fast - I don't yank the throttle open.

Dad's grasp of physics was not as advanced as Mr Ixion's - he waffled about countering "centrifugal force" - which is a layman's explanation of inertia and the conservation of momentum. His take was: decelerate, downshift if necessary, then feed power gently from the beginning of the turn to stop yourself from going wide and increase the power steadily so you accelerate out of the corner.

He also taught me to choose proper lines through a corner, closer to racing lines (but factoring in that you have on-coming traffic which you don't have on a race track so on right hand turns you daren't get too close to the centreline).

Dad and I had our disagreements and misunderstandings but when it came to learning roadcraft from him he was excellent (albeit a bloody hard master, critcal and hard to please) - he had a passion for vehicles (and all classes of licence except "trolley omnibus" (tram) to prove it) and I suppose that any expression of interest vehicles (especially from his "weird" bookish son) was greeted with enthusiasm.

He taught me to ride on our 1970's RV90 in the paddocks when I was a kid and later bought me my first bike (RX125) when I was 18 and swore like a trooper when I binned it going wide on a corner and hitting gravel. Used to tell great tales of riding and impart the lessons to be learned from them - observations skills, accident avoidance etc.

I'm glad I had him as a resource to learn from - I'm sure that if I had a less capable rider as my teacher I'd have found motorcycling a lot more painful and expensive than I did (which probably would have priced it out of my reach). I'm a firm believer that there should be proper, mandatory, instruction as part of the licensing requirements for all vehicles. I may have learned a few "bad habits" over the years, some from dad (experienced and skilled as he was, he wasn't perfect) some from failing to listen properly or coming up with my own solutions, but I could have learned a lot more bad habits than I did.

Thanks for the link, Ixion, looks like a great resource.

Tricia1000
7th December 2005, 21:33
Positive throttle throughout the bend will put the weight of the machine on the back tyre, with out overloading it. Which is when the tyre grip trade off comes in. Then as you reach the apex of the bend, and the limit point is racing away from you, then you can lay on the acceleration, but sensitively feeling it through the back tyre.

Artifice
7th December 2005, 23:56
the rear tyre has a larger contact patch than the front. weight transferance to the back tyre,(by apllying a little throttle) when going through a corner helps ensure the front doesn't slide out on you.