Cyclist accidents v motorcycle accidents

[Bassmatt]

It seems a few cyclists have been bowled and killed on the road recently.
Whats the bet those fuckers in parliament throw money at this problem rather than screwing cyclists over like motorcyclists have been, for essentially the same reason.

[Maha]

1.1 billion spent on cyclists accidents last year alone.

[george formby]

It seems a few cyclists have been bowled and killed on the road recently.
Whats the bet those fuckers in parliament throw money at this problem rather than screwing cyclists over like motorcyclists have been, for essentially the same reason.

I'm watching how these tragedy's are handled very closely. Particularly how the statistics are used by gummint.

[musicman]

That's because they're blameless, see how a cyclist hit by a car is "killed" while a motorcyclist in the exact same situation has a "fatal collision"? :blink:

[hellokitty]

1.1 billion spent on cyclists accidents last year alone.

SO are they going to make cyclists register their bikes and pay ACC?

Shocking that there has been so many deaths - this is tragic but they are road users too.............

[Maha]

SO are they going to make cyclists register their bikes and pay ACC?

Shocking that there has been so many deaths - this is tragic but they are road users too.............

Wouldn't think so ....and yes and yes.
No, just let every other road user pay.

[Bassmatt]

1.1 billion spent on cyclists accidents last year alone.

Really?!! I didn't need to hear that. I'm a kiwifruit grower and they only want to spend $25 million to to help save a $1.4 billion industry.
Pity Zespri isn't a finance company eh?

[Bassmatt]

Its time they got rid of the two abreast rule too i reckon.

[pearlygirl]

Yes and where are there regulations, they can ride in 100kms zones, 2 abreast in "Lycra" Whereas as motorcyclists we have to (or are expected to) pay thousands for good quality leather gear and $500 helmets

[chasio]

Show me a cyclist that doesn't already pay a shit load of ACC and I'll show you a tourist.

Now, when do the silly hats start?

[hellokitty]

Wouldn't think so ....and yes and yes.
No, just let every other road user pay.

I know....... dreams are free huh?

[hellokitty]

Yes and where are there regulations, they can ride in 100kms zones, 2 abreast in "Lycra" Whereas as motorcyclists we have to (or are expected to) pay thousands for good quality leather gear and $500 helmets

2 abreast? Holy crap! They were 4 abreast on the Old North Road the other day, there was a car on the wrong side of the road overtaking them on a corner leaving no room for me on MY side of the road. You can see why people get angry and then do stupid things

[RiderInBlack]

SO are they going to make cyclists register their bikes and pay ACC?

Shocking that there has been so many deaths - this is tragic but they are road users too.............Yer right, they will also look at cycle-riders licenses for road use & mandatory cyclist training for road use. Then the cycles will need to pass WOF's and cyclist will get stopped by the Police for "safety checks" (there is just not enough Tui's for me to drink on those ones).

[hellokitty]

Yer right, they will also look at cycle-riders licenses for road use & mandatory cyclist training for road use. Then the cycles will need to pass WOF's and cyclist will get stopped by the Police for "safety checks" (there is just not enough Tui's for me to drink on those ones).

Pass me a Tui would ya?

[The Stranger]

Show me a cyclist that doesn't already pay a shit load of ACC and I'll show you a tourist.


Fuck the lot of them. They should learn to obey the road rules and pay for their past time like the rest of us.

[baptist]

Show me a cyclist that doesn't already pay a shit load of ACC and I'll show you a tourist.

Now, when do the silly hats start?

I love the silly hats but lets look at this for a little longer?

We all pay heaps in ACC, but every motorcycle and car etc gets hit with a levy for ACC (well should be anyway:yes:) Push bikes do not.

Of more concern to me is who is going to foot the bill for all the new proposals for safe cycle lanes etc. Tamaki drive is one but there will be a lot of others I am sure. We do not all use push bikes or have the option of doing so.

Should cycalists be made to pay an ACC levy? dunno, but it is a sorry situation when people are killed on the road. As for ATGATT, can you imagine a guy on a push bike in full leathers and a full face brain bucket!!! :laugh::laugh:

Now 223824 normal service is resumed:innocent:

[neels]

There is no easy solution. People in cars are ignorant of cyclists even more than they are of motorcyclists. Some cyclists insist on riding their bikes in really stupid places, or in an ignorant fashion that pisses off other road users.

We had an interesting discussion with a policeman about this after a minor motorcycle accident partially caused by cyclists, his attitude was he is sick of motorcyclists hooning on his patch but cyclists had a right to use the road, so don't expect much help there.

And by the way, I pay a shitload of ACC levies so I'll ride my fucking bike on the road if I want to, OK?

[steve_t]

Fuck the lot of them. They should learn to obey the road rules and pay for their past time like the rest of us.

I don't get the whole us and them thing. You make it sound like every cyclist can't follow road rules nor do they pay ACC levies. Yeah, I've got the ZX6R (and a 250R for the missus), but I've also got a car, and I've also got a road bike and a mountain bike. Along with income related ACC levies, I think I contribute adequately.

[JudaBaker]

So if cyclists end up having to register their bicycles does that mean that little Timmy riding to school every morning needs to apply for a licence? It's a bit retarded if you expect someone should have to pay registration for a fucking pushbike..

[The Stranger]

I don't get the whole us and them thing. You make it sound like every cyclist can't follow road rules nor do they pay ACC levies. Yeah, I've got the ZX6R (and a 250R for the missus), but I've also got a car, and I've also got a road bike and a mountain bike. Along with income related ACC levies, I think I contribute adequately.

WTF, user pays and pays and pays (ad infinitum) is a well established principal. I pay for work and recreation and motor vehicle and motorcycle (which happens to be both recreation and motor vehicle). Why should treadlys be given special treatment?

[neels]

Why should treadlys be given special treatment?
Because they don't have an engine, so that means they are exempt because, ummmm

But seriously, you'd better add skis, rugby boots, running shoes and tramping boots to your list of levyable items, they could cost ACC money as well.

[steve_t]

WTF, user pays and pays and pays (ad infinitum) is a well established principal. I pay for work and recreation and motor vehicle and motorcycle (which happens to be both recreation and motor vehicle). Why should treadlys be given special treatment?

I didn't know ACC was user pays :blink:

[bogan]

WTF, user pays and pays and pays (ad infinitum) is a well established principal. I pay for work and recreation and motor vehicle and motorcycle (which happens to be both recreation and motor vehicle). Why should treadlys be given special treatment?

not well established yet (within ACC anyway), but they are working on a 'fair' way to levy other user groups such as cyclist, it was in their consultation document a few weeks ago. But they haven't though of anything yet so they're safe for a little while...

[BMWST?]

Really?!! I didn't need to hear that. I'm a kiwifruit grower and they only want to spend $25 million to to help save a $1.4 billion industry.
Pity Zespri isn't a finance company eh?

Thats a bit different situation.Who are "they".What part of that 1.4 billion actually goes back to "them".What part of the 1.4 Billion goes directly to John Q Public taxpayer?

[shrub]

and the media is filled with articles about what needs to be done and what a terrible tragedy is - roads and roading design have come under close scrutiny and driver behaviour is being roundly condemned, and on the cycling organisations websites are calls for driver licensing to be tested every 10 years, more cycle lanes, higher penalties for car drivers causing crashes with cyclists etc. Cyclists are up in arms over it.

But when motorcyclists die on the road, motorcyclists get the blame, especially from other motorcyclists.

We're so PC that we're terrified to say "hey, driver behaviour and road conditions are costing us our lives". No, instead we say "yes, it's all our fault and we promise to try harder next time and we're dreadfully sorry and it won't happen again".

Sure, most crashes are preventable by the rider concerned, but then so are most pushbike crashes, and the cycling bodies accept that. The difference is that instead of cyclists trying to be even more defensive and finding even more creative ways to take the blame for what is, frequently, the poor driving of other road users and poor roads, they're demanding that other people also change their behaviour. Take the chick who swerved around an opening car door and got run over by a truck.

if she had been a motorcyclist she would have been blamed for not knowing the car door was going to be opened, for not riding on the footpath, for not braking instead of going around or for not hitting the door in preference to being run over by the truck. Instead the cycling community have demanded the road get changed and condemned car drivers who don't look in their mirrors before they open their doors.

And yes, I am expecting to be attacked over this thread because I am holding a red flag to the PC set, and yes I know that the only person I can directly influence over my safety is me, but I'm also sick of putting up with crap behaviour from other road users that puts me in danger while us motorcyclists bend over and take it. If it's OK for people on pushbikes to stand up and demand change, I think it's Ok for us to do the same.

Or should we just accept that cyclists have more balls than us?

[Bassmatt]

Show me a cyclist that doesn't already pay a shit load of ACC and I'll show you a tourist.

Now, when do the silly hats start?

Yeah so do i mate, + paying for the privilege of using the road, twice.

[Hitcher]

It seems a few cyclists have been bowled and killed on the road recently.
Whats the bet those fuckers in parliament throw money at this problem rather than screwing cyclists over like motorcyclists have been, for essentially the same reason.

Only because treadly riders don't have to register to use the road. ACC also believes that motorcycles are evel and should be taxed out of existance. That's why the collect so many stats on treadly accidents that they don't collect on motorcycles -- they plan to do away with us, whereas they haven't figured out how to impose a user-pays system for pedal-powered road-using devices.

[Bassmatt]

Thats a bit different situation.Who are "they".What part of that 1.4 billion actually goes back to "them".What part of the 1.4 Billion goes directly to John Q Public taxpayer?

They=Govt=taxpayer
I would suggest 3-400 million in tax revenue to they=govt=taxpayer
not to mention the 10,000 odd who will be out of work if the worst came to the worst.
Its a real industry that actually produces something and brings money into the country,think about it bro.

[Bassmatt]

Thats a bit different situation.Who are "they".What part of that 1.4 billion actually goes back to "them".What part of the 1.4 Billion goes directly to John Q Public taxpayer?

How much will "they" see from the billion dollar payout to Cunterbury Finance.

[shrub]

hell, at the end of the day we pay about $10.00 a week rego - I can afford that easily and while I'm not that happy about it, the reason I'm not happy is that I get special treatment. If I get good cover and if my safety as a road user is taken seroiously I'm quite happy to pay that and more. What is the issue is that we're treated like naughty children and second class road users whereas cyclists and their concerns are taken seriously. Maybe if we were a little less whimpy and PC about our issues and didn't spend all our time apologising?

[danchop]

$1.1 billion??? thats probably more than they spent on maori claims,and we call them freeloading pricks

[neels]

What is the issue is that we're treated like naughty children and second class road users whereas cyclists and their concerns are taken seriously.
I agree completely.

Whenever a cyclist gets killed, cyclists riding in an antisocial manner and/or on inappropriate roads bleat about how the government needs to improve driver attitudes and improve roads, but when a motorcyclist gets taken out by a car driver (I almost have myself) and it's their fault because motorbikes are dangerous.

It's horseshit really.

[Katman]

But when motorcyclists die on the road, motorcyclists get the blame, especially from other motorcyclists.



You're a fucking moron.

Motorcyclists have worked themselves into a position whereby the vast majority of motorcycle accidents are viewed by the general public with an "Oh well, they probably brought it upon themselves" attitude.

You however, seem to think you can change the world without conceding anything.

You're a fucking moron (or did I say that already?).

[Wannabiker]

Well November is open season for cyclists...its when 10 000 of them get off their asses and train for the round lake Taupo ride race. All types and skill levels. You may have noticed a larger than normal amount of them on the road over the last month...combine that with the warm fine weather we have had lately......

Having said that...it is the overtaking vehicles responsibility to do so in a safe manner....and that is precisely why I no longer represent NZ as a cyclist!! To many close calls. Knocked off from behind, riding alone And a week in hospital a month later from hitting a car door...(the safer option than going under the wheels of the overtaking vehicle.

ACC?? 4 bikes, 2 cars, a trailer, and employee levies...I pay my share, as do most cyclists.

[mattian]

You're a fucking moron.

You're a fucking moron (or did I say that already?).

And let the games begin................ :corn:

[RiderInBlack]

Sure, most crashes are preventable by the rider concerned, but then so are most pushbike crashes, and the cycling bodies accept that. The difference is that instead of cyclists trying to be even more defensive and finding even more creative ways to take the blame for what is, frequently, the poor driving of other road users and poor roads, they're demanding that other people also change their behaviour. Take the chick who swerved around an opening car door and got run over by a truck.

if she had been a motorcyclist she would have been blamed for not knowing the car door was going to be opened, for not riding on the footpath, for not braking instead of going around or for not hitting the door in preference to being run over by the truck. Instead the cycling community have demanded the road get changed and condemned car drivers who don't look in their mirrors before they open their doors.How many noticed in the clip on Campell exactly where that accident occured that there was a Cycle only lane on the footpath, which had she used this instead of the road her life may have been saved.

[shrub]

I agree completely.

Whenever a cyclist gets killed, cyclists riding in an antisocial manner and/or on inappropriate roads bleat about how the government needs to improve driver attitudes and improve roads, but when a motorcyclist gets taken out by a car driver (I almost have myself) and it's their fault because motorbikes are dangerous.

It's horseshit really.

And we do ourselves no favours. My good friend Katman has his heart in the right place, but by banging on about how dangerous motorcyclists are is no friend to motorcycling because TPTB then have every right to say "bikes are dangerous - see, even motorcyclists think that bike crashes are the fault of the rider and nobody else".

In essence we have NOBODY arguing our case and everybody arguing against us whereas cyclists are smart enough and have the balls to stand up for themselves. It's a sad day when cyclists are the ballsy ones and motorcyclists are the whiny PC ones.

[shrub]

How many noticed in the clip on Campell exactly where that accident occured that there was a Cycle only lane on the footpath, which had she used this instead of the road her life may have been saved.

If cyclists behaved like we do she would be being blamed completely for the crash by fellow cyclists.

[RiderInBlack]

If cyclists behaved like we do she would be being blamed completely for the crash by fellow cyclists.Aye and Slippery Nick Myth would have used that against them. And that's what right fu*ks me off. How do we fight the media imbalance?

[Maha]

Cyclists need to lookout for themselves, pretty much the same way as we do on bikes.
On any weekend day or even early evening, I have seen a palleton of 15+ bikes on Tamaki dr riding two abreast mostly, and of cause, its in the cyclists handbook of knowledge that pedestrians give way to cyclists and red traffic lights mean nothing.

[Katman]

On any weekend day or even early evening, I have seen a palleton of 15+ bikes on Tamaki dr riding two abreast mostly, and of cause, its in the cyclists handbook of knowledge that pedestrians give way to cyclists and red traffic lights mean nothing.

Change the odd word here and there and you have motorcyclist's problem in a nutshell.

[McJim]

I have a perfect solution. Licences for cyclists. Everyone must pass a test to ride a bicycle on the road. Everyone must spend a year on a bicycle before they are allowed to apply for a moped licence. Everyone must spend a year on a moped licence before they can apply for a motorcycle licence. Everyone must spend a year on a motorcycle before they can apply for a car licence.

That way the cyclists will become trained and educated AND the motorised public will actually be aware of the vulnerable road users.

Job done :2thumbsup:

[chasio]

Sure, most crashes are preventable by the rider concerned, but then so are most pushbike crashes, and the cycling bodies accept that.

Do you have a source for that statement?

[BBQ sauce would be more appropriate than a quotable source - bring on the flames]

:devil2:

[shrub]

Aye and Slippery Nick Myth would have used that against them. And that's what right fu*ks me off. How do we fight the media imbalance?

By not bending over and telling the world that we are the problem.

Sure, ultimately my choices determine my safety and I can't control what other people do, so I need to ride defensively, but I see no reason not to demand that road conditions and the behaviour of other road users get adressed when they impact on my safety.

[Maha]

If cyclists behaved like we do she would be being blamed completely for the crash by fellow cyclists.

Fellow cyclists were on the news tonight blaming thier own for the way some conduct themselves while riding....damn, I've left myself wide open for Katman again aint I?....:innocent:

[Katman]

but I see no reason not to demand that road conditions and the behaviour of other road users get adressed when they impact on my safety.

That's right, it's always someone else's fault.

What a fucking loser.

[Oakie]

... whereas they haven't figured out how to impose a user-pays system for pedal-powered road-using devices.

Perhaps a one off $20 as part of the purchase price on any brand new bike. Of course we'd have to sell 50 million (approx) bikes per annum to meet the annual cost.

[Fatt Max]

For the record, I am not allowed to ride a pushbike.

Something to do with a fat arse, galloping piles and lycra...

[neels]

For the record, I am not allowed to ride a pushbike.

Something to do with a fat arse, galloping piles and lycra...
I'd consider that a good thing.

Whereas my arse looks great in lycra shorts, so I'll keep wearing them and riding my bike.

[shrub]

Do you have a source for that statement?

[BBQ sauce would be moer appriopriate - bring on the flames]

:devil2:

Chilli sauce works for me.

It's common sense - most crashes are the outcome of a series of events and conditions, and changing those phenomena and conditions change the probability of the event occurring. Typically a bike crash is influenced to a greater or lesser extent by some or all of:

1. rider skill
2. Rider attitude
3. Machine condition
4. Road condition
5. Other road user behaviour
6. Weather conditions
7. Rider behaviour
8. Rider condition (tiredness, sobriety, fitness etc)

Some can be influenced by the rider, some can't, and some of the ones that can't can be mitigated against (not riding in the rain or on bad roads). If we take the model to its extreme we would only ever ride on perfect closed roads with a man walking in front of us with a red flag, and the only road fatalities would be people dropping dead.

The same applies to driving, cycling, walking and mobility scootering.

[Maha]

You're a fucking moron.


You're the whiney PC homo.


What a fucking loser.

Such terms of endearment.....:love:

[Katman]

Chilli sauce works for me.

It's common sense - most crashes are the outcome of a series of events and conditions, and changing those phenomena and conditions change the probability of the event occurring. Typically a bike crash is influenced to a greater or lesser extent by some or all of:

1. rider skill
2. Rider attitude
3. Machine condition
4. Road condition
5. Other road user behaviour
6. Weather conditions
7. Rider behaviour
8. Rider condition (tiredness, sobriety, fitness etc)

Some can be influenced by the rider, some can't, and some of the ones that can't can be mitigated against (not riding in the rain or on bad roads). If we take the model to its extreme we would only ever ride on perfect closed roads with a man walking in front of us with a red flag, and the only road fatalities would be people dropping dead.

The same applies to driving, cycling, walking and mobility scootering.

Interesting that of the eight points you raised, 5 of them are directly attributable to the motorcyclist.

[shrub]

Such terms of endearment.....:love:

He calls it debate.

[shrub]

Interesting that of the eight points you raised, 5 of them are directly attributable to the motorcyclist.

You're catching on! Well done my lad, well done.:yes:

[Sis]

I see the overall issue is the safety on our roads and it is getting worse.

As a motorbike rider I train and try to stay ahead of the game to keep myself safe. Trying to stay alive is a great incentive for training and education.

Car drivers ( who generally don't do any updating of skills once they have gained their full license) are cocooned in their soft armchair with airbags, soft music, and ambient room temperature. Asleep yet? Well, most of the car drivers are!

So when is the government going to wake up to the fact that the common denominator are uneducated car drivers and do something about it.

[Katman]

He calls it debate.

No, I call it a statement of fact.

[Oakie]

Now hang on. Correct me if I'm wrong but the news item tonight reported $1.1 billion ACC cost for cycle accidents at about 4500 accidents per annum. That works out to $222,222 (like nearly a quarter million per accident). Doesn't sound right does it? The 1.1 billion probably includes ongoing costs from 20 year old accidents but jeez ... still sounds bloody high. Surely the ACC aren't playing games with the figures...

[Fatt Max]

I want my mum......

[BMWST?]

WTF, user pays and pays and pays (ad infinitum) is a well established principal. I pay for work and recreation and motor vehicle and motorcycle (which happens to be both recreation and motor vehicle). Why should treadlys be given special treatment?

careful...what you are proposing is exactly the situation with the ACC and motorcyclists that we all find so unfair.
Every worker, every motorist, every motorcyclist pays into the ACC fund which is the ACC pool for all......heard that argument before?

[pearlygirl]

So if cyclists end up having to register their bicycles does that mean that little Timmy riding to school every morning needs to apply for a licence? It's a bit retarded if you expect someone should have to pay registration for a fucking pushbike..

No as long as "little Timmy" isn't riding in a 100 k zone and isnt expecting trucks and cars to give way to him whilst he is wearing a Lycra tee shirt and a flimsy helmet designed to protect cyclist from 50km/per hr accidents!

[Madmax]

katmans here

:sleep:

[Oakie]

Now hang on. Correct me if I'm wrong but the news item tonight reported $1.1 billion ACC cost for cycle accidents at about 4500 accidents per annum. That works out to $222,222 (like nearly a quarter million per accident). Doesn't sound right does it? The 1.1 billion probably includes ongoing costs from 20 year old accidents but jeez ... still sounds bloody high. Surely the ACC aren't playing games with the figures...

I was wrong. The 1.1 billion was the cost over the last 4 years. Still. Big numbers!

[shrub]

Now hang on. Correct me if I'm wrong but the news item tonight reported $1.1 billion ACC cost for cycle accidents at about 4500 accidents per annum. That works out to $222,222 (like nearly a quarter million per accident). Doesn't sound right does it? The 1.1 billion probably includes ongoing costs from 20 year old accidents but jeez ... still sounds bloody high. Surely the ACC aren't playing games with the figures...

I don't have the stats to hand, but Charley Lamb showed me some data the other day that showed the average cost per ACC claim, and we're cheaper to fix than cyclists who are bloody expensive.

A lot of that comes down to gear - Phreak had a recent crash, and came away uninjured. if he had had the same crash on a pushbike he'd have been a mess. I came off my mountainbike about 5 years ago, had 40 stitches in my face, broke my nose and cheek bone, was in hospital for several days and off work for 2 weeks. I was doing about 10 kmh and faceplanted on a rocky track, and I watched a guy bin his treadly last week on a tram track and had to be ambulanced away. Basically he lowsided at about 20 kmh.

[mashman]

Government figures for all reported road injuries 2009

Page 21 (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motor-Vehicle-Crashes-in-New-Zealand-2009.pdf)

Cyclist Injuries - 825
Cyclist Deaths - 8

That's better than pedestrians and they have a WHOLE pavement to walk on. Cycle lanes, what feckin pish.

Pedestrian Injuries - 914
Pedestrian Deaths - 31

People just need to keep their eyes open.

[chasio]

Chilli sauce works for me.

It's common sense - most crashes are the outcome of a series of events and conditions, and changing those phenomena and conditions change the probability of the event occurring. Typically a bike crash is influenced to a greater or lesser extent by some or all of:

1. rider skill
2. Rider attitude
3. Machine condition
4. Road condition
5. Other road user behaviour
6. Weather conditions
7. Rider behaviour
8. Rider condition (tiredness, sobriety, fitness etc)

Some can be influenced by the rider, some can't, and some of the ones that can't can be mitigated against (not riding in the rain or on bad roads). If we take the model to its extreme we would only ever ride on perfect closed roads with a man walking in front of us with a red flag, and the only road fatalities would be people dropping dead.

The same applies to driving, cycling, walking and mobility scootering.

I wouldn't argue against your factors, but saying it's "common sense" is not the same as cycling advocacy groups saying that cyclists are at fault most of the time. Technically :)

And as a general point...

Some cyclists are annoying and break rules. Sound like any other group of road users we know?

[JudaBaker]

Government figures for all reported road injuries 2009

Page 21 (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motor-Vehicle-Crashes-in-New-Zealand-2009.pdf)

Cyclist Injuries - 825
Cyclist Deaths - 8

That's better than pedestrians and they have a WHOLE pavement to walk on. Cycle lanes, what feckin pish.

Pedestrian Injuries - 914
Pedestrian Deaths - 31

People just need to keep their eyes open.

Well obviously there needs to be some type of user registration and acc fee pedestrians have to pay to use the sidewalks. Why should we have to pay for our crashes while they get to jump out in front of buses for free!?! :angry:

[NONONO]

I wouldn't argue against your factors, but saying it's "common sense" is not the same as cycling advocacy groups saying that cyclists are at fault most of the time. Technically :)

And as a general point...

Some cyclists are annoying and break rules. Sound like any other group of road users we know?

No, however, the way the numbers are gathered and turned into stats, is a very real concern.

[shrub]

I wouldn't argue against your factors, but saying it's "common sense" is not the same as cycling advocacy groups saying that cyclists are at fault most of the time. Technically :)

And as a general point...

Some cyclists are annoying and break rules. Sound like any other group of road users we know?

I'm talking about a couple of guys I know who are reasonably influencial in the cycling world you accept that most crashes are avoidable. Probably a little hyperbolic to claim that cycling groups accept that most crashes are avoidable, so I take it back. Probably a better way of saying it would have been to say "just as many, if not most, motorcycle crashes are preventable, so are most treadly crashes and some cycle groups accept that."

But what's important is that they still want to see changes so they face less risk, and I admire that. A lot better than our approach of "many motorcycle crashes are avoidable so we have no right to expect improvements in road conditions or driver behaviour".

[twinbruva]

Cyclists!
Fuck them.

They use roads, they should obey road rules and pay for the use of the roads. They want cycleways? Fine; let them pay for the fuckin' things. Get the useless pieces of shit of the road. In this modern world roads are for motorised vehicles, the horse-lovers have realised that, why don't the dweebs on bicycles get the drift? I'll tell you why; they're all fuckwits, that's why. Bludging, tight-fisted, obnoxious, tree-hugging cockroaches.

Run the cunts off the road at every opportunity I say. Chuck rocks at them, spray their tyres and brakes with WD40, stab their tyres and bash them at will.

Open season on cyclists! Queer fucks.

[mashman]

1. rider skill
2. Rider attitude
3. Machine condition
4. Road condition
5. Other road user behaviour
5.1 Car driver skill
5.2 Car driver attitude
5.3 Car driver behaviour
5.4 Car driver condition
5.5 Pedestrian skill
5.6 Pedestrian attitude
5.7 Pedestrian behaviour
5.8 Pedestrian condition
5.9 Cyclist skill
5.10 Cyclist attitude
5.11 Cyclist behaviour
5.12 Cyclist condition
fuggit...
6. Weather conditions
7. Rider behaviour
8. Rider condition (tiredness, sobriety, fitness etc)



just needed to fix that, sorry.

[Adulf]

So what the F%#€¥, a motor cyclist has an accident and the
Govenment taxs all motor cyclists. Five push bikers die on the
Roads over five days and its all about better roads!!! Lets
Start taxing the push bikers.

[shrub]

Cyclists!
Fuck them.

They use roads, they should obey road rules and pay for the use of the roads. They want cycleways? Fine; let them pay for the fuckin' things. Get the useless pieces of shit of the road. In this modern world roads are for motorised vehicles, the horse-lovers have realised that, why don't the dweebs on bicycles get the drift? I'll tell you why; they're all fuckwits, that's why. Bludging, tight-fisted, obnoxious, tree-hugging cockroaches.

Run the cunts off the road at every opportunity I say. Chuck rocks at them, spray their tyres and brakes with WD40, stab their tyres and bash them at will.

Open season on cyclists! Queer fucks.

Yes, quite.

Let me guess, you just bought a nice shiny new harley :scooter: and have all the regalia including a bad ass patch with HOG on your back?

Nice work.

[shrub]

just needed to fix that, sorry.

Yeah, that's better.

[chasio]

I'm talking about a couple of guys I know who are reasonably influencial in the cycling world you accept that most crashes are avoidable. Probably a little hyperbolic to claim that cycling groups accept that most crashes are avoidable, so I take it back. Probably a better way of saying it would have been to say "just as many, if not most, motorcycle crashes are preventable, so are most treadly crashes and some cycle groups accept that."

But what's important is that they still want to see changes so they face less risk, and I admire that. A lot better than our approach of "many motorcycle crashes are avoidable so we have no right to expect improvements in road conditions or driver behaviour".

I'm on the same page as you now :yes:

[twinbruva]

Yes, quite.

Let me guess, you just bought a nice shiny new harley :scooter: and have all the regalia including a bad ass patch with HOG on your back?

Nice work.

Wrong, cock. I bought (another) low-k used Harley which runs like a Swiss watch and I don't belong to the Hairy Old Gits, so no need for regalia.

[BMWST?]

Cyclists!
Fuck them.

They use roads, they should obey road rules and pay for the use of the roads. They want cycleways? Fine; let them pay for the fuckin' things. Get the useless pieces of shit of the road. In this modern world roads are for motorised vehicles, the horse-lovers have realised that, why don't the dweebs on bicycles get the drift? I'll tell you why; they're all fuckwits, that's why. Bludging, tight-fisted, obnoxious, tree-hugging cockroaches.

Run the cunts off the road at every opportunity I say. Chuck rocks at them, spray their tyres and brakes with WD40, stab their tyres and bash them at will.

Open season on cyclists! Queer fucks.

you funny half of the guys you see in the weekends would have bikes that would cost more than a half decent motorbike

[shrub]

Wrong, cock. I bought (another) low-k used Harley which runs like a Swiss watch and I don't belong to the Hairy Old Gits, so no need for regalia.

What a man. I wish I was you.:love:

[twinbruva]

What a man. I wish I was you.:love:

No doubt.....

[twinbruva]

you funny half of the guys you see in the weekends would have bikes that would cost more than a half decent motorbike

So what? They should still obey the road rules and pay to use the roads.

[Owl]

katmans here

:sleep:

No he's not...........he's over there!

[Katman]

No he's not...........he's over there!

Where? :shit:

[twinbruva]

Where? :shit:

Well, there goes that thread..........

[baptist]

Well, there goes that thread..........

Cool can we talk about Big Hats then?

:bleh:

[Owl]

Where? :shit:

:doh:My bad

[JudaBaker]

So what? They should still obey the road rules I don't think running cyclists off the road is in the road code.. Or throwing rocks at them for that matter.

[Katman]

Cyclists!
Fuck them.

They use roads, they should obey road rules and pay for the use of the roads. They want cycleways? Fine; let them pay for the fuckin' things. Get the useless pieces of shit of the road. In this modern world roads are for motorised vehicles, the horse-lovers have realised that, why don't the dweebs on bicycles get the drift? I'll tell you why; they're all fuckwits, that's why. Bludging, tight-fisted, obnoxious, tree-hugging cockroaches.

Run the cunts off the road at every opportunity I say. Chuck rocks at them, spray their tyres and brakes with WD40, stab their tyres and bash them at will.

Open season on cyclists! Queer fucks.

The classic motorcyclist.

[neels]

The classic motorcyclist.
As much as it pains me to say so, people like this prove your point.

[PrincessBandit]

Such terms of endearment.....:love:

He's saved it up for a while to dispense on his birthday, like bestowing gifts on a special occasion - it's his shout...


Where? :shit:

Check over your shoulder (you might be standing in front of a mirror).

[twinbruva]

Cool can we talk about Big Hats then?

:bleh:

Tinfoil hats?

[Katman]

Check over your shoulder (you might be standing in front of a mirror).

Don't say my name three times while looking in a mirror!

[twinbruva]

I don't think running cyclists off the road is in the road code.. Or throwing rocks at them for that matter.

Maybe not, but on page 166 it states "As a cyclist it is important that you follow the road rules...."

So many of them don't and they're just a bunch af arseholes.

[twinbruva]

As much as it pains me to say so, people like this prove your point.

What point? It's rude to point.

[Owl]

So many of them don't and they're just a bunch af arseholes.

A bit like motorcyclists then?:whistle:

[JudaBaker]

Don't say my name three times while looking in a mirror!
Or the Katman will appear and lecture you to a slow and painful death?

[wysper]

They just might.
But it is a slippery slope I don't believe we want to go down, or at least I don't.

Then what is the next group?
Joggers?
Pedestrians?
Rollerskates?
Surfers?
Jet skiiers?

Just because we are getting hammered, I see no reason to want to hammer another group just so we feel better. I am happy to fight against what has happened to motorcyclists and at the same time hopefully make TPTB think twice about trying the same crap with some other group.

[twinbruva]

A bit like motorcyclists then?:whistle:

Hell no! If you have a rego sticker and some dark sunnies you can do whatever you want. We pay for that right, don't we?

Anyways......bit of a ride tomorrow........gotta get some shuteye so as to stay sharp for when I see them god-damned cyclists and kick the little fuckers off the road.

[Katman]

Or the Katman will appear and lecture you to a slow and painful death?

Only on the days when I'm in a good mood.

[BMWST?]

So what? They should still obey the road rules and pay to use the roads.

most of them do

[Zookey]

Last nights the 17th. news coverage on cycle accidents was staggering,1.2 Billion ,methinks ACC should have some charge for their road usage,perhaps we motorcyclists are really paying for their pleasure,
What do we think here? :violin:

[Bassmatt]

They just might.
But it is a slippery slope I don't believe we want to go down, or at least I don't.

Then what is the next group?
Joggers?
Pedestrians?
Rollerskates?
Surfers?
Jet skiiers?

Just because we are getting hammered, I see no reason to want to hammer another group just so we feel better. I am happy to fight against what has happened to motorcyclists and at the same time hopefully make TPTB think twice about trying the same crap with some other group.

Im not suggesting they should be hammered i just find the different attitude from the powers that be appalling.

[Genie]

more tradegy on our roads and this week it's the cyclists getting smacked. for a while it was kids on driveways, then motorcyclists, then some in cars....sadly, we are all going to die.

I've wondered for some time how long it would be before they get targetted, I've had some issues with coming around corners on quiet country roads and there's a bunch of cyclists across the whole left-lane, rather scarey.

I'm sure the cycling community is feeling great sadness over this just as motorcyclists tend to do when one is killed.

[NighthawkNZ]

the 2.5% increase in GST should have been a ACC levy instead and there everybody (including tourists and cyclists etc) pay. Also means you would not know how much anybody pays ACC overall which over all is the way it suppose to be a.

Accounts should be rejoined and one big huge slush fund, this way it going back to its original way it was set up to run, having seperate accounts does mean possible short falls and cut backs.

The other thing, by law you are suppose to be able to stop with in the clear distance of road in front of you... so going around a blindish corner and bang cyclists... if you can not stop you were going to fast for the conditons... and you are in the wrong.

However agreed, cyclists have to learn a bit of common sense to when and where it safe to be single file or two a breast... I seen them 4 a breast taking up the whole lane and with on coming traffic, and holding up traffic...

We all have to learn to share the road...

[shrub]

They just might.
But it is a slippery slope I don't believe we want to go down, or at least I don't.

Then what is the next group?
Joggers?
Pedestrians?
Rollerskates?
Surfers?
Jet skiiers?

Just because we are getting hammered, I see no reason to want to hammer another group just so we feel better. I am happy to fight against what has happened to motorcyclists and at the same time hopefully make TPTB think twice about trying the same crap with some other group.

That's a very good point. It's not "us against the world", and many of us are cyclists, surfers, etc, and I usually walk to the fridge so that makes me a pedestrian. Many of the issues cyclists face - car drivers not looking and driver inattention, poor road surfaces etc are the same issues we face; therefore a solution that works for them works for us and vice versa. I have spoken to a couple of guys I know who are in cycle groups and they're open to working with motorcyclists.

[The Stranger]

They just might.
But it is a slippery slope I don't believe we want to go down, or at least I don't.

Then what is the next group?
Joggers?
Pedestrians?
Rollerskates?
Surfers?
Jet skiiers?

Just because we are getting hammered, I see no reason to want to hammer another group just so we feel better. I am happy to fight against what has happened to motorcyclists and at the same time hopefully make TPTB think twice about trying the same crap with some other group.

Screw it, there's prize for being a martyr and taking all the shit ourselves. Other than motorcycling treadlys how many were standing by our side at our rallies?

[rastuscat]

Segregating road users so they can blame the other groups is too easy, and doesn't achieve anything.

Cyclists are almost always drivers as well. They often ride motorbikes too, although I suspect not many Harley riders have a road cycle. If they did it would be great in straight lines but heavy and crap in the twisties.

Don't polarize people into one group only. It's rare for anyone to be exclusively a cyclist, exclusively a motorcycle rider, exclusively a pedestrian, exclusively any sort of road user.

Maybe it's time to just accept that roads are just places where risk happens, and as a result, shit happens. If you're prepared to take the risk, be prepared to deal with the shit that comes your way.

Mmmmmmm, cinnamon donuts today, yum.:scooter:

[Pascal]

Every worker, every motorist, every motorcyclist pays into the ACC fund which is the ACC pool for all......heard that argument before?

Maybe there should be one levy per adult person, and not per vehicle. That way, no matter what form of transport you use, you are covered and everybody contributes.

[duckonin]

...Maybe it's time to just accept that roads are just places where risk happens, and as a result, shit happens. If you're prepared to take the risk, be prepared to deal with the shit that comes your way.

What ? :facepalm:

[phill-k]

This thread is an interesting read, the comments regarding the truck, the person who opened the door and the cyclist her self, the apportioning blame but in the end she is dead, lives are effected, her family and friends, the car driver and the Truckee all effected by decisions taken that day.

Personal Responsibility!!

As a cyclist the one big disadvantage you have as apposed to all the other traffic on the road is your inability to ride (mostly) at the same speed as the flowing traffic hence you are a continual hazard to those vehicles following you and then overtaking you.

Cyclists don't by in large have rear view mirrors and often further create hazards such as riding more than single file. To further reduce your awareness by listening to music through headphones to me is stupidity, most of your situational awareness needs to be behind you, your focus needs to more so on the hazards approaching you than the hazards you are approaching.

Unless you were present and witnessed the various killings on our roads these last few days, and I wasn't, none of us has the right to place blame on any one party, as it is unlikely that a single cause is responsible for any of these fatalities.

Likewise in our own riding we consciously or at times with out to much thought place ourselves in the path of danger and possible demise, for some that can be excessive speed for the conditions, a lack of protective clothing, inattention, distraction, and all manner of other things. I ride not to listen to music I can do that at home with a much better sound system than an ipod, I don't have to ride to commute, but generally ride because I wish to ride (in somes eyes not a true biker - who cares). I choose where and when, and don't place external pressures such as time or the lack of in the way. This is my enjoyment but perhaps not yours, but something we must all do to avoid being killed is minimise the risks through situational awareness and personal responsibility.

[wanpo]

I rode a mountain bike to work for a bit when my real bike was in the shop, it definitely feels more dangerous, felt relieved and safe when I had the power back between my legs.

Well in any case...
Wheel all have to be careful
*cue rimshot*

[Genestho]

Maybe it's time to just accept that roads are just places where risk happens, and as a result, shit happens. If you're prepared to take the risk, be prepared to deal with the shit that comes your way.


Yeah good troll, that's the kind of attitude we see people getting themselves or others killed on the roads, isn't it?

[shrub]

Maybe it's time to just accept that roads are just places where risk happens, and as a result, shit happens. If you're prepared to take the risk, be prepared to deal with the shit that comes your way.

That statement is NOT going to make you popular here, but guess what? You're right. Roads are dangerous places and people get killed and hurt on them all the time. It's dangerous to travel at 30m per second in a steel and glass box and it's dangerous to travel at 10 m per second (typical pushbike speed) with no protection at all.

Frankly it's a miracle more people don't die on the roads because they're bloody dangerous, but that won't stop me riding my bikes on them because it's something I love and I not only know the risk but am willing to take that risk. Sure, I mitigate the risk to the best of my ability, but short of riding on closed roads encased in kevlar with a man walking in front of me carrying a red flag there is no way to remove all risk.

[rastuscat]

Tears. Unpopular? The thought terrifies me.

Yeah right. This is a place for espousing ideas and thoughts, and it would be a sad day if we all agreed on everything.

[duckonin]

Roads are not formed just for motorcyclists and vehicle users, others pay their dues to use them also rates ect, when following a vehicle bike or other it is your responsibilty to ensure you give enough room until you can safely pass....Alas most just barge on through..very common today me me me !!!!:yes:

[shrub]

"Transport Minister Steven Joyce is considering "regulatory changes" after five cyclists died in five days as a result of accidents on New Zealand roads this week.

Mr Joyce yesterday promised to keep a close watch on inquiries into the cycling fatalities to see what could be done to prevent more deaths.

This morning he told Radio New Zealand he would consider regulatory changes following the "tragic series of accidents".

There would always be roads that were shared between cyclists, pedestrians and motorists, and it was "crucially important" people took care with other road users, particularly vulnerable road users such as cyclists, he said." http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10688641

Interesting. if 5 motorcyclists died in quick succession there would either be a demand to clamp down on motorcycling, checkpoints and a blitz; or a bit of tut tutting and "life goes on".

I'm sick of being a second class road user with even less status than a cyclist, it's not that we're all reckless and incompetent, because we're not - every rider i know is pretty bloody good at what they do, constantly seeks to be better, wears top gear and doesn't ride recklessly. Sure there are idiots out there, but they're in the minority.

i think we're the problem because we're oh so very PC and apologetic about how dangerous motorcycling is and we won't kick up a stink because some motorcycle crashes were the fault of the rider and until every motorcyclist is perfect we won't do a thing to demand changes in riding conditions and behaviour by other road users.

I can just imagine this scene unfolding: "I'm sorry mate, i didn't see you"

"That's OK, it was my fault because I didn't realise you were about to pull out without looking and i should have"

[ukusa]

Our roads can be dangerous - TRUE. Driving a car, riding a bike/motorcycle can be dangerous - also true.
Walking down the fucking street can be dangerous. Hell, everything can be dangerous, but we ain't gonna wrap ourselves in cotton wool, bubble wrap & Kevlar for our entire lives.
What if 5 pedestrians were killed in 5 days, would there be the same enquiries/outrage? Make em all pay ACC, wear helmets while walking, don't walk 2 abreast maybe?

5 cyclists died on the road over 5 days, tragic indeed. It hasn't happened before in recent memory, and it may not ever happen again. The cycling rules haven't changed since they made helmets compulsory back in the early 90's (from memory). No changes in law are going to fix things here. It isn't more dangerous to ride a bike today than it was in the week before the 5 died. I doubt any of the cyclists were hit on purpose, most were probably caused by poor judgement or actions by one or both parties involved.

I think bikers biggest gripe is the ACC thing, we pay, cyclists don't (I'm talking the rego thing here, nothing to do with personal ACC through wages which every worker pays). But I doubt very much that it will change.

[miloking]

Maybe there should be one levy per adult person, and not per vehicle. That way, no matter what form of transport you use, you are covered and everybody contributes.

WHAT? you mean like taking ACC tax from everybodys salary??? That would be AWESOME idea...ohh wait... :D

We are getting so fucked by ACC and we dont even realize it...

[Pascal]

We are getting so fucked by ACC and we dont even realize it...

Very true. My wife occasionally temps as a stlist for various salons; just doing the odd bit of contracting and her ACC levies are terribad.

[miloking]

I can just imagine this scene unfolding: "I'm sorry mate, i didn't see you"



Hahaha if i had a dollar for every time i heard that....i would like have at least 7 dollars by now! (on a motorcycle)

but funny thing happen to me....

6 weeks ago i got my licence suspended(not DUI or speed related) and ...bought nice racing road bike to do my commute to work without getting arrested and car impounded.

And have learned that cycling is not as much pain as cyclists make it out to be....most drivers are corteous even if I undertake them all the way to the front on the red lights.
Nobody is shouting at me, buses give me lots of room and iam sure iam pretty annoying by blocking whole bus lane....therefore iam not sure what are all the cyclists crying about!

The only annoying thing are people opening their car doors into the road without checking mirrors but in those 4 weeks i have LEARNED that thats the way it is and I just pay attention for it when i see someone sitting in a car....

SO realy WTF are you cyclists doing????... its not that hard you just need to take RESPONSIBILITY for your own safety!


One more thing...i managed to get 66.2Km/h on a downhill on symonds street (my speedo meter has "max speed" memory)...even overtook a cop, just to prove a point i can break that horribly "dangerous" speed limit even on a fucking bycycle!!!!)

[Katman]

Maybe it's time to just accept that roads are just places where risk happens, and as a result, shit happens. If you're prepared to take the risk, be prepared to deal with the shit that comes your way.


The 'shit happens' argument is a cop out (excuse the pun).

If everyone took more effort to try to ensure shit didn't happen we'd be a whole lot better off.

[Genestho]

Frankly it's a miracle more people don't die on the roads because they're bloody dangerous, but that won't stop me riding my bikes on them because it's something I love and I not only know the risk but am willing to take that risk. Sure, I mitigate the risk to the best of my ability, but short of riding on closed roads encased in kevlar with a man walking in front of me carrying a red flag there is no way to remove all risk.



I'm sick of being a second class road user with even less status than a cyclist, it's not that we're all reckless and incompetent, because we're not - every rider i know is pretty bloody good at what they do, constantly seeks to be better, wears top gear and doesn't ride recklessly. Sure there are idiots out there, but they're in the minority.

i think we're the problem because we're oh so very PC and apologetic about how dangerous motorcycling is and we won't kick up a stink because some motorcycle crashes were the fault of the rider and until every motorcyclist is perfect we won't do a thing to demand changes in riding conditions and behaviour by other road users.



I was told after our crash that killed 4 and injured 3, by a cop that this is what happens when you ride bikes - you take that risk and shit happens.
It hadn't for 20 years prior, all risks were pre-empted, avoided or dealt with on our own terms, yup - one day your time is up - kapeesh.

BUT, as far as I'm concerned, that was then - and still is, a shabby, complacent attitude that kills people, it removes a certain sense of personal responsibility.

In saying that, I certainly understand how it must get that way.

I was not prepared to accept that mantra and have kicked up 'quite a stink', haven't been PC much at all.

I know very very few, who would have had the stamina to do so.

I challenge anyone to do the same when it's proven other drivers are at fault.

Don't accept the status quo.

[MSTRS]

Don't polarize people into one group only. It's rare for anyone to be exclusively a cyclist, exclusively a motorcycle rider, exclusively a pedestrian, exclusively any sort of road user.

Pah! ACC started it...


Maybe it's time to just accept that roads are just places where risk happens, and as a result, shit happens. If you're prepared to take the risk, be prepared to deal with the shit that comes your way.

I see you HAVE been paying attention in class...

[shrub]

Don't accept the status quo.

You're right, you're not very PC. That crash (and I can still remember reading about it) was due to appalling behaviour by another road user, and I don't think it's OK for us to suck it up just because Nigel Noob came into a corner overcooked on his GN250 and stomped on the back brake or Peter Powerranger bought a Gixxer 1000 to park by his jet ski and SUV, then wiped out trying to impress everyone on the Akaroa GP.

If cyclists can demand changes when they get killed, why can't we? Hell, some of them are complete and utter idiots and damn near deserve to get killed, but that doesn't stop the cycling bodies kicking up a stink about their safety.

[cheshirecat]

hell, at the end of the day we pay about $10.00 a week rego - I can afford that easily and while I'm not that happy about it, the reason I'm not happy is that I get special treatment. If I get good cover and if my safety as a road user is taken seroiously I'm quite happy to pay that and more. What is the issue is that we're treated like naughty children and second class road users whereas cyclists and their concerns are taken seriously. Maybe if we were a little less whimpy and PC about our issues and didn't spend all our time apologising?

Plus 1 ........

[Genestho]

You're right, you're not very PC. That crash (and I can still remember reading about it) was due to appalling behaviour by another road user, and I don't think it's OK for us to suck it up just because Nigel Noob came into a corner overcooked on his GN250 and stomped on the back brake or Peter Powerranger bought a Gixxer 1000 to park by his jet ski and SUV, then wiped out trying to impress everyone on the Akaroa GP.

If cyclists can demand changes when they get killed, why can't we? Hell, some of them are complete and utter idiots and damn near deserve to get killed, but that doesn't stop the cycling bodies kicking up a stink about their safety.

I don't understand why it is that changes can be proposed in support of cyclists and not Motorcyclists in the same circumstances.
I actually can't recall a week of 5 motorcyclists being killed by other users, if that were the case then there'd be a fairly powerful reason to stomp.

For sure we need our lobby groups to speakup whenever there is a crash involving other users and smack the issue right into touch, the otherside is, we also need to be involved in Govt activities to lead the changes.

As a collective community we need to find that balance where we stand up for ourselves and what we do, but accept a certain amount of responsibility.

[cheshirecat]

Where are some good cyle forums we can join in on. I mean we have similar issues. Done a quick google nothing like KB or is that a contradiction of terms.

[shrub]

I don't understand why it is that changes can be proposed in support of cyclists and not Motorcyclists in the same circumstances.
I actually can't recall a week of 5 motorcyclists being killed by other users, if that were the case then there'd be a fairly powerful reason to stomp.

For sure we need our lobby groups to speakup whenever there is a crash involving other users and smack the issue right into touch, the otherside is, we also need to be involved in Govt activities to lead the changes.

As a collective community we need to find that balance where we stand up for ourselves, but accept a certain amount of responsibility.

That's exactly my point. many of the changes that cyclists are demanding either work for us or can be adapted to work for us. They face a great many of the same risks we do, so why don't we work with them?

And yes, of course we need to accept personal responsibility, but I think the overwhelming majority of serious riders (as opposed to commuters) take their own safety very, very seriously indeed and while Katman et al make a lot of sense, they're preaching to the choir - if there is anything I can do to improve my odds of survival, I do it. I think personal responsibility is pretty much a self policing thing - if you don't do it you crash.

But I believe we are in partnership as road users: we are in partnership with the authorities that make and enforce the rules; the other road users and the people who design and maintain our roads. Expecting one party (us) to do everything and sucking up bad driving, poor roads and inappropriate policing is not only unfair, it's futile.

[neels]

And have learned that cycling is not as much pain as cyclists make it out to be....most drivers are corteous even if I undertake them all the way to the front on the red lights.
Nobody is shouting at me, buses give me lots of room and iam sure iam pretty annoying by blocking whole bus lane....therefore iam not sure what are all the cyclists crying about!

The only annoying thing are people opening their car doors into the road without checking mirrors but in those 4 weeks i have LEARNED that thats the way it is and I just pay attention for it when i see someone sitting in a car....
I used to have a roadie that I used for commuting to work and only ever had 3 incidents, and all on the same day, but usually no dramas with traffic at all. I also went out for some organised bunch rides and was more scared of the retarded shit the other cyclists were doing than the traffic on the road, in the end I sold the thing and built the spare mtb up with slicks for commuting so at least I don't look like one of those road cyclist wankers that people love to hate.

[Katman]

I think personal responsibility is pretty much a self policing thing - if you don't do it you crash.


Then there must be a lot of motorcyclists out there not taking 'personal responsibility'.

Get my point?

[MSTRS]

The message I'm getting is that EVERY road user needs to lift their game.
We all have responsibilities for ourselves and others, and to expect the vulnerable to assume more responsibility, without reciprocation from the rest, is never going to achieve much.

[shrub]

Then there must be a lot of motorcyclists out there not taking 'personal responsibility'.

Get my point?

I know this is a major stretch for you my friend, but have you considered the possibility that quite a lot of crashes are not the fault of the motorcyclist? And that many of them are unavoidable?

Radical thinking I know, but sometimes it's a good idea to step outside of our comfort zone and explore wild and crazy ideas. That's how come Hans Muth came up with the idea of the Katana and essentially invented modern sports bikes.

[shrub]

the message i'm getting is that every road user needs to lift their game.
We all have responsibilities for ourselves and others, and to expect the vulnerable to assume more responsibility, without reciprocation from the rest, is never going to achieve much.

fanfuckingtastic!

[Genestho]

There's some good things coming in terms of Motorcycling, I think Squiggles has put a post up, for every proposal tabled 'today' expect it takes a long time to come through to legislation, so these were tabled over a year ago, the more that support or debate these proposals through the proper channels the better.

This could be the last time, for sometime that extensive changes come through as it's part of the 10 year strategy.

There are alot of things we can do as a community for ourselves, and I think we'd have support in doing these things by guaging opinions as I like to do.

But, I would like to see our lobby groups stand up in support of us regularly when it's needed in the media, be the watchdogs of all things Motorcycling..because they are the voice.

[phill-k]

I know this is a major stretch for you my friend, but have you considered the possibility that quite a lot of crashes are not the fault of the motorcyclist? And that many of them are unavoidable?

Radical thinking I know, but sometimes it's a good idea to step outside of our comfort zone and explore wild and crazy ideas. That's how come Hans Muth came up with the idea of the Katana and essentially invented modern sports bikes.

I then have to ask have you stepped beyond your zone and considered that whilst some of the "not a fault crashes" you refer to if the victim was perhaps more aware - taking personal responsibility - then they may have been able to avoid said crash or minimise the outcome.

for instance travelling at X speed over the brow of a hill to find a car blocking the road - u turn or just broken down. You might have felt ok about x speed but if that pace did not allow you to avoid or slow to a non life threatening speed who is then at fault the car blocking the lane or you for travelling at a speed that you could not preserve your own life.

Personally when I'm riding I ride at a pace that in the above situation - or when cornering with limited view I wish to be able to slow to a point that some poor bastard doesn't have to put me in a bag to remove me from the scene. However I also drive a car that has all the safety features you could ask for and because of same might actually attack said corners or brow of a hill at a higher pace knowing that if the worst is upon me I can go off road or do what ever to avoid the situation knowing I have said protection around me.

[Katman]

I know this is a major stretch for you my friend, but have you considered the possibility that quite a lot of crashes are not the fault of the motorcyclist? And that many of them are unavoidable?


There are a massive number of accidents that are completely avoidable - regardless of who is at fault.

[shrub]

There are a massive number of accidents that are completely avoidable - regardless of who is at fault.

yes, there are, and that's my point. There are a large number of factors behind every crash (and as an aside i prefer the term crash to accident because accident implies randomness and lack of ability to influence an outcome), and our goal should be to mitigate those factors where possible. Some of them we have direct control over - condition of bike, skill, gear, condition of rider etc, but many we don't.

I'm not willing to accept bad behaviour and low skill by other road users, poorly designed and maintained roads and inappropriate laws and enforcement just because I can ride defensively. I have gone to some trouble to minimise the role I play in any potential accident, so why shouldn't the other partners in road transport do their bit too? Maybe some of the riders who lack our skill and experience might not end up getting killed or injured if other road users lift their game too?

I agree entirely, a massive number or crashes are avoidable. Let's take a holistic big picture perspective and look at mitigating ALL of the factors instead of just the easy ones that we can do from behind our own handlebars. Cyclists are doing it, so why can't we?

[Katman]

Cyclists are doing it, so why can't we?

What exactly are cyclists doing? Are they pushing for new legislation to protect them from other road users or are they taking a close look at their own actions and trying to figure out how they can best protect themselves from other road users?

The talk from TPTB - is it about making new legislation to protect cyclists or is it about making legislation to impose new restrictions on cyclists?

[shrub]

What exactly are cyclists doing? Are they pushing for new legislation to protect them from other road users or are they taking a close look at their own actions and trying to figure out how they can best protect themselves from other road users?

The talk from TPTB - is it about making new legislation to protect cyclists or is it about making legislation to impose new restrictions on cyclists?

If they sit back passively the way we do, they will simply face a whole pile of new rules, but they're not. Check this out: http://can.org.nz/article/take-action-to-make-our-roads-safer

They're being proactive and as well as pushing for stuff like lower speed zones, funding of cycle skills training, stricter licensing and testing of drivers, better enforcement of road rules, compulsory third party insurance, and increased funding of cycleways; they're protesting and putting together promotional material and a video pushing for a change in driver attitude and awareness.

if you look at the stuff they want, most of it is stuff we could benefit from, so why are we sitting back and doing nothing?

[Katman]

if you look at the stuff they want, most of it is stuff we could benefit from, so why are we sitting back and doing nothing?

Hey, I've already got enough on my plate here. :brick:

[mashman]

if you look at the stuff they want, most of it is stuff we could benefit from, so why are we sitting back and doing nothing?

Families, jobs, lives etc... To tackle the professionals, yes those full-time politician types, you need lots of time and/or not care about the fallout from your actions. You'd be going up against an institution FULL of fork tongued professionals, no easy task for a 1 wo/man band... No easy task to organise the "conversation" either, considering our geography and the demands of our lives.

I for one would happily walk into the Beehive TODAY to discuss some of the things I have on my mind, but what's on my mind may not be at the forefront of yours (especially with the "them" and "us" attitude that's kicking around). We need to stick to a single issue, make an appointment or 7 and turn up with about 20 people who have the FULL understanding of what the "proposal" is... Again, no easy task given our individualityness...

However, ACC is something that every worker pays. Every worker is already subsidising another group in some form or another FACT etc... Could that issue galvanise the fractured road user groups? I think so :yes:

[MarkH]

What exactly are cyclists doing? Are they pushing for new legislation to protect them from other road users or are they taking a close look at their own actions and trying to figure out how they can best protect themselves from other road users?

The talk from TPTB - is it about making new legislation to protect cyclists or is it about making legislation to impose new restrictions on cyclists?

It should be both for each question, just like motorcyclists - we would be safer if car drivers were less retarded and also if we were better at avoiding trouble.

The Tamaki drive cyclist death could have been avoided by the rider if she hadn't positioned herself where she did on the road, but it also could have been avoided if the idiot in the car had simply checked his wing mirror before opening the door.

The 3 deaths in Morrinsville could only have been avoided by the cyclists if they had stayed at home, but it could have VERY easily been avoided by the car driver if the stupid bitch had been driving sensibly and kept to her own side of the road.

Sometimes shit happens, but in almost every case one or more parties to the incident could have done things differently to avoid it happening. I can accept that while riding a situation may occur where there is nothing that I can do to avoid an accident, but it is still worth my while to pay attention to what is happening around me so that I can avoid the avoidable.


Roads are not formed just for motorcyclists and vehicle users, others pay their dues to use them also rates ect, when following a vehicle bike or other it is your responsibilty to ensure you give enough room until you can safely pass....Alas most just barge on through..very common today me me me !!!!:yes:

Which roads are paid for out of rates? People that use petrol pay a bunch of money every time in road tax, cyclists don't. I never minded cyclists not being charged an ACC levy despite their risks until ACC got in motorcyclists faces bitching about how we should pay our share - user pays etc. Why should motorcyclists pay any more than any one else? ACC isn't a user pays system! Cyclists don't pay, recreational sports players don't pay, pedestrians don't pay, home DIYers don't pay - why the fuck is it so essential that motorcyclists pay more than others?

My solution:
Raise tax by 1 or 2 % and drop the ACC levy from vehicle registrations. Then everyone pays - including cyclists & rugby players & horse riders & jet skiers & home handymen etc. Most accidents happen around the home, let everyone that lives in a home contribute to ACC!

[steve_t]

My solution:
Raise tax by 1 or 2 % and drop the ACC levy from vehicle registrations. Then everyone pays - including cyclists & rugby players & horse riders & jet skiers & home handymen etc. Most accidents happen around the home, let everyone that lives in a home contribute to ACC!

Income tax? What about non-earners? or GST again?

[MSTRS]

ACC on Gst for all non-vehicle accidents.
ACC on petrol for all vehicle accidents. On/off road, boats, microlights...you get the picture.

[jasonu]

and the media is filled with articles about what needs to be done and what a terrible tragedy is - roads and roading design have come under close scrutiny and driver behaviour is being roundly condemned, and on the cycling organisations websites are calls for driver licensing to be tested every 10 years, more cycle lanes, higher penalties for car drivers causing crashes with cyclists etc. Cyclists are up in arms over it.

But when motorcyclists die on the road, motorcyclists get the blame, especially from other motorcyclists.

We're so pc that we're terrified to say "hey, driver behaviour and road conditions are costing us our lives". No, instead we say "yes, it's all our fault and we promise to try harder next time and we're dreadfully sorry and it won't happen again".

Sure, most crashes are preventable by the rider concerned, but then so are most pushbike crashes, and the cycling bodies accept that. The difference is that instead of cyclists trying to be even more defensive and finding even more creative ways to take the blame for what is, frequently, the poor driving of other road users and poor roads, they're demanding that other people also change their behaviour. Take the chick who swerved around an opening car door and got run over by a truck.

If she had been a motorcyclist she would have been blamed for not knowing the car door was going to be opened, for not riding on the footpath, for not braking instead of going around or for not hitting the door in preference to being run over by the truck. Instead the cycling community have demanded the road get changed and condemned car drivers who don't look in their mirrors before they open their doors.

And yes, i am expecting to be attacked over this thread because i am holding a red flag to the pc set, and yes i know that the only person i can directly influence over my safety is me, but i'm also sick of putting up with crap behaviour from other road users that puts me in danger while us motorcyclists bend over and take it. If it's ok for people on pushbikes to stand up and demand change, i think it's ok for us to do the same.

Or should we just accept that cyclists have more balls than us?

well said!!!!!

[chasio]

ACC on Gst for all non-vehicle accidents.
ACC on petrol for all vehicle accidents. On/off road, boats, microlights...you get the picture.

If you stand for parliament, I'll vote for you.

Now, stop making sense! :shutup:

[mashman]

Income tax? What about non-earners? or GST again?

I wouldn't go income tax, i'd go earners account (removes levy off fuel and rego). Non-earners pay nuffink already, so they're moot to the argument? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO more on GST.

[Drunken Monkey]

Fuck the lot of them. They should learn to obey the road rules and pay for their past time like the rest of us.

Go back to sleep, Noel.

[steve_t]

ACC on Gst for all non-vehicle accidents.
ACC on petrol for all vehicle accidents. On/off road, boats, microlights...you get the picture.


I wouldn't go income tax, i'd go earners account (removes levy off fuel and rego). Non-earners pay nuffink already, so they're moot to the argument? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO more on GST.

Hmmm... one says move ACC levies to GST and petrol, and another says don't. No wonder politicians don't get anything achieved :shutup:

[mashman]

Hmmm... one says move ACC levies to GST and petrol, and another says don't. No wonder politicians don't get anything achieved :shutup:

Yet we both probably have very good reasons for our points of view. As mentioned in my previous "rant". If myself, MSTRS, Shrub, Katman etc... can't afford the time or cost of meeting in a central location to discuss the issue, then the politicians will continue to be non-achievers... we don't all have subsidised travel :shifty:

[Drunken Monkey]

How many noticed in the clip on Campell exactly where that accident occured that there was a Cycle only lane on the footpath, which had she used this instead of the road her life may have been saved.

The 'cycle lane' on the footpath is for children and dawdlers. Cyclists have every right to the road afforded to others.

[Scuba_Steve]

The 'cycle lane' on the footpath is for children and dawdlers. Cyclists have every right to the road afforded to others.

and they should have every right to pay for it too, god knows I am for every single one of my road going vehicles. If they want to use the road they should pay for it like every other user especially if they expect "special" treatment like "bike lanes" where's our motorbike only lanes???

[Pascal]

where's our motorbike only lanes???

We have quite a few dedicated lanes. One is painted green and found in urban areas. Those bus driving cnuts use it from time to time though. And the other is found right between two lines of cars on your average trip through Auckland.

[DEATH_INC.]

And by the way, I pay a shitload of ACC levies so I'll ride my fucking bike on the road if I want to, OK?
What he said, I don't need another to add to the fucken list of bills.... :angry:

[DEATH_INC.]

I find it hard to believe (tho this is the 21st century...and KB) that so much of this thread is about acc $$$$$$. Is that all that matters to the people in this country?

[Drunken Monkey]

and they should have every right to pay for it too, god knows I am for every single one of my road going vehicles. If they want to use the road they should pay for it like every other user especially if they expect "special" treatment like "bike lanes" where's our motorbike only lanes???

I certainly paid more than my fucking fair share of it when I had 2 cars, 2 motorbikes and 2 bicycles. And as per other poster, you have dedicated motorcycle lanes.
Cock.

[Hypobru]

You're a fucking moron.

Motorcyclists have worked themselves into a position whereby the vast majority of motorcycle accidents are viewed by the general public with an "Oh well, they probably brought it upon themselves" attitude...

Push bike riders get exactly the same reaction from the public when they get hit by a vehicle.

One of the biggest issues with cyclists is that the sport is popular with the 'vets' fitness nut brigade, (think 1000's of novice bike riders in their 40's & 50's + all over NZ), in the 70' & 80's the craze was jogging. Most of these folk wouldn't have ridden a push bike since they were teenagers, then they grow up, get wealthy & go buy a high performance bike & head straight out onto the roads,(sounding familiar?).

Racing bikes weigh fuck all, have steep geometry so are very responsive to a riders movements & input. Everything that I know about handling motorbikes translates to riding push bikes, except you can go at a reasonable pace everywhere instead of just down hill. (& motorbike rides aren't boring)

I believe that the biggest mistake pushy 'newbies' make is that they lean heavily on the bars which, as we all know, will upset the handling & make the bike wobble around. It's the reason they can't even ride side by side without taking up half the lane. A good rider will be able to ride along a white line for miles without wobbling off it. Then there's all the skills involved in hazard avoidance, cornering & stopping not to mention 'awareness' etc that take years to learn even for a competitive racing cyclist.

There is a good argument for compulsory rider training for these people, especially the ones who insist on riding in the Auckland traffic & narrow roads, (much slower than the cagers-fuck that), even motorbike newb's don't have anything more than the basic handling cert.

In the end even professional racing cyclists get mown down by other vehicles on the road. Sometimes there's fuck all you can do.

[shrub]

I find it hard to believe (tho this is the 21st century...and KB) that so much of this thread is about acc $$$$$$. Is that all that matters to the people in this country?

There must be a lot of really skint people out there. While I'm not happy about the rises, i don't hesitate spending around $600 for a set of tyres that last me less than a year and $130 for oil and filter that lasts me around 6 months, so rego is just another cost and I can afford it easily.

[yungatart]

There must be a lot of really skint people out there. While I'm not happy about the rises, i don't hesitate spending around $600 for a set of tyres that last me less than a year and $130 for oil and filter that lasts me around 6 months, so rego is just another cost and I can afford it easily.

Well, aren't you just the lucky bunny then.
Not all of us are that well paid...everything has to be budgeted for in our house and some things just get left off the list!

[Scuba_Steve]

I certainly paid more than my fucking fair share of it when I had 2 cars, 2 motorbikes and 2 bicycles. And as per other poster, you have dedicated motorcycle lanes.
Cock.


firstly you need to check the word "dedicated".
secondly your 2 bicycles you don't pay to use the road.
thirdly even if you included your 2 bicycles I'm still paying more road user charges than you, and I still can't use any I don't pay for or my CR250 on the road, so why should you be allowed your bicycle & demand "special" lanes.
and finally going by you last remark you seem to have some anger issues there, I'm gonna guess your part of the "lycra brigade", the reason a lot of motorists hate "cyclists", am I right?

[mrchips]

An elder(ish) cyclist cut right across my path today in a 70 kay zone. He just stuck his arm out & went for it without even looking & i'm the one paying big ACC.

Fcuk me, some cyclists are their own worst enemy.

My arse is still puckered up !

[neels]

I don't pay for or my CR250 on the road
But you still get covered by ACC when you're riding it, even though you don't pay any ACC levies for riding it.

Sort of like riding a pushbike really, isn't it.

Sort of covered by the general recreation levy.

But it probably still gets classified as a motorcycle accident by ACC and gets added to the levies that get paid by those that ride on the road.

So by riding your trail bike your screwing us both ways.

Probably time to shut up now, don't you think?

[McJim]

None of the solutions cited are used in the developed world yet they don't have the same extent of cycle risk. My observation is that, by and large, New Zealanders simply can't drive. QED.

When I drive my tank around the roads and I approach a cyclist I scan ahead of the cyclist for hazards that may cause the cyclist to do something unpredictable and I slow and wait for a safe opportunity accordingly. All the balme I hear in various forums and on the telly is simply Kiwis not being man enbough to own up to the fact that "we simply haven't got a fuckin clue how to operate machinery":facepalm:

It's a cop out my friends. Take responsibility of the deadly weapon you have been put in control of or walk.

[JudaBaker]

thirdly even if you included your 2 bicycles I'm still paying more road user charges than you, and I still can't use any I don't pay for or my CR250 on the road..
Is this not constantly bitched about by people who own more than one vehicle? Having to pay more than one set of fees when you can only use one vehicle at a time is stupid, arguing that someone else should be treated just as unfairly as you are because otherwise it would be unfair :scratch: is even more so. The entire system should be changed, not just "I pay this much more, so I have more right to be on the road, wank wank wank. Motorcyclists complain about being treated unfairly for being a minority, why have a go at cyclists when on the road they are the very definition of 'the little man'.


..so why should you be allowed your bicycle & demand "special" lanes?

If they make people safer then why not? would you rather the cyclist was in your way holding you up and pissing you off or in his own special lane so you can forget he even exists? Less queues at the gas station, less pollution and less congestion in town, how is this a bad thing?


I'm gonna guess your part of the "lycra brigade", the reason a lot of motorists hate "cyclists", am I right?

Find me a group that doesn't have a few arseholes you don't like in it. This includes Motorists, Police, Motorcyclists, Cyclists, Politicians, Your neighbours and probably even a few people you have work with every day..

[Scuba_Steve]

But you still get covered by ACC when you're riding it, even though you don't pay any ACC levies for riding it.

Sort of like riding a pushbike really, isn't it.

Sort of covered by the general recreation levy.

But it probably still gets classified as a motorcycle accident by ACC and gets added to the levies that get paid by those that ride on the road.

So by riding your trail bike your screwing us both ways.

Probably time to shut up now, don't you think?

its like using a mountain bike (off road), NOT a "lycra brigade" bike. Mountain bikes & motocross bikes are recreational vehicles, but if my road motorbikes are not recreational & I am expected to pay excessive fees for them why then should your "lycra brigade" bikes not be expected to do the same?

Your "its a recreational vehicle" argument doesn't work, "lycra brigade" bikes are as "recreational" as any road motorbike out there and almost anyone with a motorbike would tell you the same, we choose motorbikes because we love them.

[MarkH]

We have quite a few dedicated lanes. One is painted green and found in urban areas. Those bus driving cnuts use it from time to time though. And the other is found right between two lines of cars on your average trip through Auckland.

The green one isn't quite a dedicated motorcycle lane - they let both buses & bicycles use it too. But I'm quite happy with the lanes available - I think we have more lanes to choose from than any one else! Sure sometimes the buses share our green lanes and there is another lane I sometimes use that pedestrians also sometimes use, but we can easily use the normal lanes because we can keep pace with the rest of the traffic and the ancillary lanes (lane 1a and 2a) between the other lanes are pretty darned useful in heavy traffic - they are a big reason why motorcycling beats everything else in Auckland!


An elder(ish) cyclist cut right across my path today in a 70 kay zone. He just stuck his arm out & went for it without even looking & i'm the one paying big ACC.

My arse is still puckered up !

Get a Stebel air horn - then the bicyclist can have a puckered up arse too! (I think people's first though is a big SUV when they hear the Stebel)


Income tax? What about non-earners? or GST again?

Non-earners are not paying for anything else, why would ACC be any different?

I wonder what the figures actually work out at - if half a percent on either GST or Income tax would cover it than I'd be fine either way. I just think that ACC costs should be covered by everyone - or close to everyone. I don't think people that ride motorcycles should be singled out, there are too many other groups that just wont ever be fairly charged. Even if there was a $20 ACC levy on power tools there would be home handymen that would by 2nd hand and avoid paying that. Are we going to see a levy on every piece of sporting equipment? I just don't see how user pays would be possible, so it irks me that the motorcyclists get stung for hundreds and others will never have to pay any extra for their risky pastimes.

Bring back 'no fault' ACC!

I say - take the levy of vehicle rego and put it on PAYE/GST/whatever! Let everyone pay a little instead of motorcyclists paying a lot.

[The Stranger]

Go back to sleep, Noel.

Hmm, such arrogance. You're not a cyclist per chance are you?
That's the shit that gets them killed - thinking their shit don't stink, that they own the road, the road rules don't apply to them and that they're always right.
Dead right.

[BMWST?]

and they should have every right to pay for it too, god knows I am for every single one of my road going vehicles. If they want to use the road they should pay for it like every other user especially if they expect "special" treatment like "bike lanes" where's our motorbike only lanes???

the roads were built by the taxpayer and ratepayer and land developers.Only the very newest roads are built from taxes on fuel.So most cyclists have paid for the roads cos most of them are taxpayers(and some of them are motorcyclists)

[Kickaha]

Hmm, such arrogance. You're not a cyclist per chance are you?That's the shit that gets them killed - thinking their shit don't stink, that they own the road, the road rules don't apply to them and that they're always right. Dead right.

Substitute the word cyclist for motorcyclist and you'd also be bang on the money

[rastuscat]

Random thought.

The country is having a surge in heart disease and type 2 diabetes, arising from obesity.

Cycling helps to prevent that, so cuts the cost on the health budget. That must at least cut the cost placed on the acc budget through medical costs.

It's the bigger philosophy. If you banned all sports where someone might get injured, you'd blow the heart disease problem out huge time.

Like I said, random. But related.

[Katman]

Hmm, such arrogance. You're not a cyclist per chance are you?
That's the shit that gets them killed - thinking their shit don't stink, that they own the road, the road rules don't apply to them and that they're always right.
Dead right.

There's a subliminal message there for us, isn't there Noel. :whistle:

[Owl]

Valid point too ratuscat!

I wave to cyclists:wavey:

[ynot slow]

Very bloody simple solution,BAN ipods etc from pedestrians and cyclists.How many accidents and deaths are caused by the victim wearing earphones and can't hear the traffic,how many times does the coroner say as much.

Also when you walk,ride or drive on the road the onus is on the indiviual to be aware,and here again it comes back to no phone in cars whilst driving,loud stereos etc which mean you aren't aware,sure stereo is fine,but as long as you can hear sirens,and vehicles.

But basically the rider/driver needs to look out for hazzards,and it's easy to pass a single cyclist on most roads,the difficulty arises when cyclists are 2-3 abreast on narrow country roads.

The thing is many car drivers can't identify their left side of the car,thereby misjudge the distance a cyclist is to their left side of car with disasterous results.

[st00ji]

people saying cyclists pay plenty of ACC already need to get fucked. guess what, those levies are to cover the cost of car accidents / bike accidents / trailer accidents / whatever

[oldrider]

Cyclists piss me off with their self righteous attitude, always taking the moral high ground, like "they" are doing "the country" a favour! :tugger:

[ynot slow]

ACC levies= rego - covers road crashes,paye - covers non work,sport,home accidents,employers - covers workers injuries whilst working.

Only way cyclists pay their share is through paye levies.Not the same as saying we pay via regos etc,as they pay these costs for their vehicles,not for bike.Sure they can say they pay but a motor rego goes towards motor accidents now,or am I misinformed.

[MSTRS]

... My observation is that, by and large, New Zealanders simply can't drive. QED.

... Kiwis not being man enough to own up to the fact that "we simply haven't got a fuckin clue how to operate machinery"
...
You are correct. The problem is simply exacerbated by those very same dipshit drivers getting out on their treadlies.
They either don't care enough to pay attention, or have a notion that they can do whatever they want and are invulnerable in their cars...and they take that attitude with them on their treadlies.

ACC levies= rego - covers road crashes,paye - covers non work,sport,home accidents,employers - covers workers injuries whilst working.

Only way cyclists pay their share is through paye levies.Not the same as saying we pay via regos etc,as they pay these costs for their vehicles,not for bike.Sure they can say they pay but a motor rego goes towards motor accidents now,or am I misinformed.

Also correct. Regos cover ALL injuries for anyone involved in a road vehicle crash.
In some ways, we motorcyclists have a valid gripe about cyclists not paying to use the road. Afterall, we are often using the road in exactly the same way as them. For recreation. But we get to pay twice for the privilege. From earnings AND rego.
Argue that we can use our bikes for 'legitimate transport' ? - same applies to treadlies.

[MSTRS]

Just an observation, not sure if anyone else has mentioned it...
Cyclists killed in the last week = 5. With at least 2 more in hospitals on the critical list.
The chief coroner is about to start a investigation into the reasons for all those deaths, with a view to seeing what can be done, if anything, to make sure it never happens again. Laudable, I'm sure, but...
Total cyclists killed year to date = 10. 2009 was 8 and 2008 similar.
So - a week ago, someone was no doubt congratulating themselves on the low toll (5).
And they say that a week in politics is a long time...

[MarkH]

Substitute the word cyclist for motorcyclist and you'd also be bang on the money

I think Noel was saying that a lot of cyclists seem to have an arrogant attitude - more so than motorcyclists. Cyclists are more likely to just ride through a red light whereas a motorcyclist will filter to the front and wait for the green (knowing he/she can leave the cars behind easily). Cyclists will ride 2 abreast while travelling at 30kph in a 100kph zone - motorcyclists tend to ride 100 - 110 in the 100 zone and don't have cars coming up behind them with a 70-80kph speed differential.

We already have the message out there that we need to avoid arrogance and that it will get us killed (thanks katman). We are constantly being told to not trust the car drivers and look for escape routes for when they do the unexpected. I am wondering if there is a bicycle version of katman out there warning the other bicyclists that show the suicidal arrogance that they need to change their attitude?

I used to cycle (I even raced for a couple of years) but I live in Auckland now* - no way I want to ride a bicycle here! I would never trust the car drivers to pass me safely - I like keeping up with the traffic and not riding within a metre of parked cars. Generally I ride the right wheel track, cyclists are too slow to do the same - keeping to the left near the parked cars was a big factor in the death of the young woman on Tamaki drive. I personally feel MUCH safe riding at the same speed as the cars than bicycling a lot slower and being passed all the time.



* The scary thing is that I used to ride & race around Morrinsville, including on the road that 3 bicyclists were killed on last week. *shudder*

[trailblazer]

and the media is filled with articles about what needs to be done and what a terrible tragedy is - roads and roading design have come under close scrutiny and driver behaviour is being roundly condemned, and on the cycling organisations websites are calls for driver licensing to be tested every 10 years, more cycle lanes, higher penalties for car drivers causing crashes with cyclists etc. Cyclists are up in arms over it.

But when motorcyclists die on the road, motorcyclists get the blame, especially from other motorcyclists.

We're so PC that we're terrified to say "hey, driver behaviour and road conditions are costing us our lives". No, instead we say "yes, it's all our fault and we promise to try harder next time and we're dreadfully sorry and it won't happen again".

Sure, most crashes are preventable by the rider concerned, but then so are most pushbike crashes, and the cycling bodies accept that. The difference is that instead of cyclists trying to be even more defensive and finding even more creative ways to take the blame for what is, frequently, the poor driving of other road users and poor roads, they're demanding that other people also change their behaviour. Take the chick who swerved around an opening car door and got run over by a truck.

if she had been a motorcyclist she would have been blamed for not knowing the car door was going to be opened, for not riding on the footpath, for not braking instead of going around or for not hitting the door in preference to being run over by the truck. Instead the cycling community have demanded the road get changed and condemned car drivers who don't look in their mirrors before they open their doors.

And yes, I am expecting to be attacked over this thread because I am holding a red flag to the PC set, and yes I know that the only person I can directly influence over my safety is me, but I'm also sick of putting up with crap behaviour from other road users that puts me in danger while us motorcyclists bend over and take it. If it's OK for people on pushbikes to stand up and demand change, I think it's Ok for us to do the same.

Or should we just accept that cyclists have more balls than us?

they just look like they have bigger balls. the lycra and padding make it look bigger. :yes:

[steve_t]

Very bloody simple solution,BAN ipods etc from pedestrians and cyclists.How many accidents and deaths are caused by the victim wearing earphones and can't hear the traffic,how many times does the coroner say as much.

Also when you walk,ride or drive on the road the onus is on the indiviual to be aware,and here again it comes back to no phone in cars whilst driving,loud stereos etc which mean you aren't aware,sure stereo is fine,but as long as you can hear sirens,and vehicles.

But basically the rider/driver needs to look out for hazzards,and it's easy to pass a single cyclist on most roads,the difficulty arises when cyclists are 2-3 abreast on narrow country roads.

The thing is many car drivers can't identify their left side of the car,thereby misjudge the distance a cyclist is to their left side of car with disasterous results.

You're kidding right? U want the already nanny state to tell people that if they go out for a run, they're not allowed to listen to music?? Can you imagine the outcry? I guess they'd also have to ban bluetooth headsets and earplugs for motorcyclists. They'd have to limit volumes for car stereos. They'd have to remove some of the sound proofing from flash european cars. The ban on phones while driving was because it meant people weren't paying attention not because the phones were too loud.
The bloody simple solution of banning iPods etc seems much akin to saying we'll fix the issue of people dying on motorbikes by banning motorbikes. Not gonna happen

[myvice]

It was a sad and pointless death caused by inattention, but there was a cycle lane she could have used.
The three that where killed?
Well, probably been about the same number of deaths if it had been a car that was hit instead of some pushbikes.
Cyclists strung out across the road around blind corners, up hill at 30kph?
Dunno what to do about that one, surly they must be able to hear us coming?
And I’m not dropping to walking pace on every corner as then I will be killed by the car behind me.
Take ACC off rego and put it on fuel?
Kinda like that, pure user pays, but pedleys don’t drink gas.
Put it on GST? Na, people would riot.
Why not have a “free” transport? Walking, cycling etc?
Why not join forces with the self powered two wheel brigade, as many of the goals are the same and we may, just may, get heard?
I know I’m safe, I scratched some bit of card and now I have a licence.

[Kiwi Graham]

I think Noel was saying that a lot of cyclists seem to have an arrogant attitude - more so than motorcyclists. Cyclists are more likely to just ride through a red light whereas a motorcyclist will filter to the front and wait for the green (knowing he/she can leave the cars behind easily). Cyclists will ride 2 abreast while travelling at 30kph in a 100kph zone - motorcyclists tend to ride 100 - 110 in the 100 zone and don't have cars coming up behind them with a 70-80kph speed differential.

I am wondering if there is a bicycle version of katman out there warning the other bicyclists that show the suicidal arrogance that they need to change their attitude?

So out and about in the cage with the family today and what did I see???
The tour de France blitzing 4-5 abreast through any red lights they come across, arrogantly oblivious to other road users be they cars, trucks, buses or pedestrians (some of the red lights were ped crossings). Was even at a Santa parade today, roads closed, parade coming down the street, bands playing etc but what is heading up the street?? a lycra clad pair of fuck who cares inches of the kids waiting to see Santa, how I wished I had a broom handle handy.

[Katman]

So out and about in the cage with the family today and what did I see???
The tour de France blitzing 4-5 abreast through any red lights they come across, arrogantly oblivious to other road users be they cars, trucks, buses or pedestrians (some of the red lights were ped crossings). Was even at a Santa parade today, roads closed, parade coming down the street, bands playing etc but what is heading up the street?? a lycra clad pair of fuck who cares inches of the kids waiting to see Santa, how I wished I had a broom handle handy.

How do you think car drivers who have the misfortune to find themselves on the Coro Loop on a GP weekend feel?

[Fatt Max]

Reckon they should form an action group....

Cycles United Needing Tougher Safety,

Or C.U.N.....you can do the rest

[ynot slow]

You're kidding right? U want the already nanny state to tell people that if they go out for a run, they're not allowed to listen to music?? Can you imagine the outcry? I guess they'd also have to ban bluetooth headsets and earplugs for motorcyclists. They'd have to limit volumes for car stereos. They'd have to remove some of the sound proofing from flash european cars. The ban on phones while driving was because it meant people weren't paying attention not because the phones were too loud.
The bloody simple solution of banning iPods etc seems much akin to saying we'll fix the issue of people dying on motorbikes by banning motorbikes. Not gonna happen

Nope just suggesting the coroner has indicated noise may have been the cause of deaths for some.

Define the fact that with big bore and subs,some guys can't hear an ambo or fire engine behind them,so in that respect noise can be a major issue.

Used ipod as an example,when you walk down the street in any city,how often does a person with ipod on(and usually we can hear it)walk whilst texting,head down or so and walk into people or worse straight onto the road,without looking,failing that wait outside any highschool and watch the students behaviour.

[myvice]

wait outside any highschool and watch the students .

Not allowed to, something about a court order…

[Drunken Monkey]

Hmm, such arrogance. You're not a cyclist per chance are you?
That's the shit that gets them killed - thinking their shit don't stink, that they own the road, the road rules don't apply to them and that they're always right.
Dead right.

Yes, I am a cyclist. And a pedestrian. And a car driver. And a motorcyclist. And, more recently, a truck driver.

You and scuba steve are the arrogant ones, a right pair of utter ignorant twats who are unable to see how different types of road users affect each other.

And for the record:
No, I do not wear lycra, I wear cotton mountain biking shorts.
I never ride 2 abreast, and I don't believe cyclists should be allowed to do that.

[Kiwi Graham]

How do you think car drivers who have the misfortune to find themselves on the Coro Loop on a GP weekend feel?

I agree Steve, but a little different being in the smoke with heaps of traffic, junctions and pedestrians around.

[Scuba_Steve]

Yes, I am a cyclist. And a pedestrian. And a car driver. And a motorcyclist. And, more recently, a truck driver.

You and scuba steve are the arrogant ones, a right pair of utter ignorant twats who are unable to see how different types of road users affect each other.

And for the record:
No, I do not wear lycra, I wear cotton mountain biking shorts.
I never ride 2 abreast, and I don't believe cyclists should be allowed to do that.

then why are you getting all agro? I have made a point of separating the "lycra brigade" from other cyclists I thought I had made that clear.

as for ignorant? I think you need to take off those rose coloured glasses.

[mashman]

Yes, I am a cyclist. And a pedestrian. And a car driver. And a motorcyclist. And, more recently, a truck driver.

also a worker? Would you prefer to pay a single ACC levy? Have 9.9c/l off the value of petrol (removal of ACC levy on fuel)? Remove ACC Levy from vehicle registration payment? Catches everyone that isn't paying at the moment. But in return you know exactly what the guy next door is paying, same as the guy at the other end of the country.

You can do all of that if you join the road account to the worker account and share the cost amongst those who are already sharing the cost. This makes perfect sense to me. You'll still collect the same amount of money, but from 1 place and it covers everyone for everything.

[cheshirecat]

also a worker? Would you prefer to pay a single ACC levy? Have 9.9c/l off the value of petrol (removal of ACC levy on fuel)? Remove ACC Levy from vehicle registration payment? Catches everyone that isn't paying at the moment. But in return you know exactly what the guy next door is paying, same as the guy at the other end of the country.

You can do all of that if you join the road account to the worker account and share the cost amongst those who are already sharing the cost. This makes perfect sense to me. You'll still collect the same amount of money, but from 1 place and it covers everyone for everything.
That's hopelessly too good an idea. If that was accepted then treasury would have a reduced number of revenue streams to control - sorry balance.

[steve_t]

also a worker? Would you prefer to pay a single ACC levy? Have 9.9c/l off the value of petrol (removal of ACC levy on fuel)? Remove ACC Levy from vehicle registration payment? Catches everyone that isn't paying at the moment. But in return you know exactly what the guy next door is paying, same as the guy at the other end of the country.

You can do all of that if you join the road account to the worker account and share the cost amongst those who are already sharing the cost. This makes perfect sense to me. You'll still collect the same amount of money, but from 1 place and it covers everyone for everything.

So, basically, abolish all ACC levies and pay for ACC out of raised income tax levels? Obviously, a percentage of income tax would need to be attributed to ACC but for all intents and purposes, it'll just be more income tax. I guess it'd be easier to implement

[mashman]

That's hopelessly too good an idea. If that was accepted then treasury would have a reduced number of revenue streams to control - sorry balance.

Exactly. It will lower administration costs too. And it's the one revenue stream you can pretty much guarantee...




So, basically, abolish all ACC levies and pay for ACC out of raised income tax levels? Obviously, a percentage of income tax would need to be attributed to ACC but for all intents and purposes, it'll just be more income tax. I guess it'd be easier to implement

Contrary to what i said just above :lol:... I'd keep the ACC Levy component where it is at the moment, because there is a maximum level of cover "attached". Income tax is for a myriad of other things, ACC has a specific task to perform. That's why I wouldn't put it on income-tax. Doesn't mean it isn't a good idea though, but 1 thing at a time :lol:

[MarkH]

So, basically, abolish all ACC levies and pay for ACC out of raised income tax levels? Obviously, a percentage of income tax would need to be attributed to ACC but for all intents and purposes, it'll just be more income tax. I guess it'd be easier to implement

I'd prefer that - at the moment we pay a certain amount of income tax + 15% GST + ACC levy on rego + ACC levy on petrol + import duty on some imports + excise tax on alcohol + any other way the government can think of to take money off us. We pay road tax on the petrol, then they want us to pay to use a toll road. I think that it must often be inefficient to collect money in so many different ways. If we had to pay $300 more each year in tax, but the ACC levy was removed from the rego then we would be no poorer - I can't see a negative. Sure someone with a car and 2 motorbikes would pay less, but someone with no car that plays rugby would pay more.

When the gummint announced the plan to increase ACC levies for motorcycles and gave their reasons I came across non-bikers saying "oh yeah, that's only fair - user pays". This pissed me off because I just don't see ACC successfully getting all users to pay fairly in accordance to their risk and ACC was set up to be a no fault scheme anyway. If they are only interested in fairness then can we sue the 'at fault' party after and accident? ACC was created to forego blame and just help those that needed it - we didn't want the USA method of everyone suing each other. Now they want to make it an insurance scheme, I don't approve!

If the home handyman isn't charged an ACC levy on a circular saw then why should I pay heaps when I register a motorcycle? User pays, my arse!

[JudaBaker]

also a worker? Would you prefer to pay a single ACC levy? Have 9.9c/l off the value of petrol (removal of ACC levy on fuel)? Remove ACC Levy from vehicle registration payment? Catches everyone that isn't paying at the moment. But in return you know exactly what the guy next door is paying, same as the guy at the other end of the country.

You can do all of that if you join the road account to the worker account and share the cost amongst those who are already sharing the cost. This makes perfect sense to me. You'll still collect the same amount of money, but from 1 place and it covers everyone for everything.
Where do I sign up? Technically there's already equal right to claim, so why not equal contribution? How it should be really.

[yungatart]

Nope just suggesting the coroner has indicated noise may have been the cause of deaths for some.

Define the fact that with big bore and subs,some guys can't hear an ambo or fire engine behind them,so in that respect noise can be a major issue.



I have been in ambulances on many occasions, lights flashing, sirens blaring, coming up behind many a motorist (cars and motorcycles) who fail to notice what is behind them :gob:.They don't all have stereos on full noise...most of them just don't use their mirrors. Even at night, people don't see the lights!

On another note, came up behind two cyclists on the Piecock Hill last weekend. Visibility was very low due to fog and low cloud. No flashy lights, no hi-vis vests, I only noticed them because my perpiheral vision caught an odd movement that didn't "fit". 3 other people in the vehicle with me did NOT see them...lucky for them, I did!

[mashman]

Where do I sign up? Technically there's already equal right to claim, so why not equal contribution? How it should be really.

Totally agree. Join 'em up using income tax or the workers account and it'd be a damn site more transparent and efficient. You could then spend more time on injury prevention.

In terms of Injury Prevention, did you know that for the 2,169,000 "workers" of New Zealand (sourced somewhere, but have found higher figures sourced), that you'd only have to "charge" $0.89 per week and you could generate $100,000,000 for injury prevention "campaigns". Simple things that ACC seem too busy to be thinking about :yes: Hey ho.

[Kickaha]

I have been in ambulances on many occasions, lights flashing, sirens blaring, coming up behind many a motorist (cars and motorcycles) who fail to notice what is behind them :gob:.They don't all have stereos on full noise...most of them just don't use their mirrors. Even at night, people don't see the lights!

Yet "Loud pipes save lives" :sick:

[shrub]

Yet "Loud pipes save lives" :sick:

Loud pipes sound good though and i have one maybe two incidents a year when I have to avoid a car that hasn't seen me on my bike (which has moderately lound pipes) yet regularly have events where I have cars do stupid shit around me when I'm in my car. BTW, according to carjam last year I rode over 12000 kms on the bike and drove 2500 kms in the car.

Who knows, they may save lives, but even if they don't I still like them.

[yungatart]

Yet "Loud pipes save lives" :sick:

....only if the person hearing the noise pays enough attention to register it as a bike.
If they hear it all, they are likely to swerve all over the road as they look for the "WTF is that"????

[cheshirecat]

Loud pipes sound good though and i have one maybe two incidents a year when I have to avoid a car that hasn't seen me on my bike (which has moderately lound pipes) yet regularly have events where I have cars do stupid shit around me when I'm in my car. BTW, according to carjam last year I rode over 12000 kms on the bike and drove 2500 kms in the car.

Who knows, they may save lives, but even if they don't I still like them.
PLus 1

I much prefer silent as possible. Having done time despatching in London I learnt to predict and develope that intutition though it usually took until Monday pm after the weekend break to get it back up to proper surviving levels. Its taking me ages to develope it again.

I find noise just too distracting and can't focus to pick up those tiny nuances that give the game away. pLus there's nothing like surprising a cage by just appearing from 'nowhere'. This was important for black cabs as they often blocked your route
Its all very well having noisy pipes for a couple of hours or so but 10 hours a day five days a week, no way. And the smokey bears notice you too much.

[shrub]

there's nothing like surprising a cage by just appearing from 'nowhere'.

Personally I don't like surprising cage drivers and much prefer them to see me, know where I am, what I'm doing and what I'm about to do; and if being noisy helps just one more cage driver achieve that in my life and not pull out in front of me, I'm happy with loud pipes, but you survived as a motorcycle courier in London and I reckon in that environment I'd be gone by lunchtime so there may well be more merit in silence.

Who knows.

[Pascal]

The ban on phones while driving was because it meant people weren't paying attention not because the phones were too loud.

Interesting point. When driving / riding you have two senses that effectively help you handle your environment. Sight and hearing. I guess if you're following a stock truck your sense of smell might come into it ...

Plus a iPhones in, turn the music up too loud, etc. and they've effectively reduced their ability to respond to the situations around them.

Not sure how splitting concentration between phone and operating a vehicle is all that different to blocking one of your senses in terms of end results.

I'm pretty sure they'd kick up a big stink if people started driving around blind folded :yes:

[RiderInBlack]

Interesting point. When driving / riding you have two senses that effectively help you handle your environment. Sight and hearing. I guess if you're following a stock truck your sense of smell might come into it Smell has helped on more that one occasion while riding. The smell of wet road, petrol/diesel fumes etc, have played their part in warning me not to trust the road surface before I have seen the problem.

[baptist]

also a worker? Would you prefer to pay a single ACC levy? Have 9.9c/l off the value of petrol (removal of ACC levy on fuel)? Remove ACC Levy from vehicle registration payment? Catches everyone that isn't paying at the moment. But in return you know exactly what the guy next door is paying, same as the guy at the other end of the country.

You can do all of that if you join the road account to the worker account and share the cost amongst those who are already sharing the cost. This makes perfect sense to me. You'll still collect the same amount of money, but from 1 place and it covers everyone for everything.

:shit: What a stupid idea!!!!! If you did that think of all the civil servants that would be out of work, think of all the transparency in revenue collection, think of all the savings man!!!!! how would MP's and top civil servants manage to con, sorry I mean procure, all the benefits they get in their jobs (travel perks etc, although they might be going:woohoo:). If you start applying fairness and logic to the way a government runs then what next? would the nation survive if there was no wastage and doubling up of resources to complain about?:eek:

To be serious though a system that if fairer across the board may, with regards to the kind of argument in this thread, be the only way to demonstrate equality for all road users.

Also we all have a right to use the roads, maybe dangerous push bike riding needs to be addressed via a word from the boys in blue, yes they will not catch them all but then they don't catch all the bikers that speed etc. either.

Good example of dodgy push bike riding this morning, a cyclist was lane splitting coming up to some lights, they went green, the cages took off and he was left stradding the line between two lanes with cars whizzing past on both sides:facepalm:, at least a motorcycle would have been able to speed up and go with the flow.

Anyway :shutup:

[baptist]

I'm pretty sure they'd kick up a big stink if people started driving around blind folded :yes:

You mean they don't?:laugh:

[davebullet]

Yet "Loud pipes save lives" :sick:

The only solution for a loud pipe for a cyclist is a vicious curry the night before a ride!

[cheshirecat]

Personally I don't like surprising cage drivers and much prefer them to see me, know where I am, what I'm doing and what I'm about to do; and if being noisy helps just one more cage driver achieve that in my life and not pull out in front of me, I'm happy with loud pipes, but you survived as a motorcycle courier in London and I reckon in that environment I'd be gone by lunchtime so there may well be more merit in silence.

Who knows.

Yes I had to be very selective, usually it was reserved for the playboy's in their Lambos down Park Lane late at night. As per 'gone by lunchtime' there was one day I was almost gone (aside from all the usual near misses) by lunchtime about four times starting with an artic almost flattening me from behind when I was just warming up the bike to go to work and 40mins later when parked up with my coffee. Both times I caught the looming mass in my mirror and fortuneately the Honda could leap off the mark instantly though the coffee was history but left it's mark on the truck. Two more before lunch and it was only Tuesday - fxxk that. Tough week that as one of us went down on the Hammersmith flyover in the wet. No doubt the other DR's here could add a few 'moments of interest' too.

There are a few more of us ex DR's here so maybe we should form a group?

[Katman]

No doubt the other DR's here could add a few 'moments of interest' too.



Too many to list.

I'm sure cheshirecat will back me up here when I say that the only thing that kept us alive was 100% concentration for 100% of the time that we were on the bike. It fried the brain for a while until you got used to it but the fact is that that level of concentration is something that anyone can train their mind to do.

[shrub]

Too many to list.

I'm sure cheshirecat will back me up here when I say that the only thing that kept us alive was 100% concentration for 100% of the time that we were on the bike. It fried the brain for a while until you got used to it but the fact is that that level of concentration is something that anyone can train their mind to do.

Personally I believe any road user who doesn't have 100% concentration 100% of the time needs to park and catch the bus. Today I was driving down Cashel st in my mighty Bluebird and a guy in some shitty little pus box did a U turn in front of me and pulled into a parking place - I saw his wheels turning, so hit the picks and the horn, and missed him by around a metre. I wandered accross and I got "sorry mate, I didn't see you and I wanted that parking place before someone else got it".

Classic example of the kind of driving I see all the time - people get behind the wheel and are too busy focussing on their passengers, their stereo, their tasty meat pie, their destination etc to think about checking to see that nothing was coming before they do something.

Policing 100% concentration 100% of the time is far, far more important than speed, alcohol or noisy exhausts in my opinion.

[cheshirecat]

Personally I believe any road user who doesn't have 100% concentration 100% of the time needs to park and catch the bus. Today I was driving down Cashel st in my mighty Bluebird and a guy in some shitty little pus box did a U turn in front of me and pulled into a parking place - I saw his wheels turning, so hit the picks and the horn, and missed him by around a metre. I wandered accross and I got "sorry mate, I didn't see you and I wanted that parking place before someone else got it".

Classic example of the kind of driving I see all the time - people get behind the wheel and are too busy focussing on their passengers, their stereo, their tasty meat pie, their destination etc to think about checking to see that nothing was coming before they do something.

Policing 100% concentration 100% of the time is far, far more important than speed, alcohol or noisy exhausts in my opinion.

I like the excuses. "Oh just wanted to get a parking space" etc. As if that mitigates the act.

[MSTRS]

Policing 100% concentration 100% of the time is far, far more important than speed, alcohol or noisy exhausts in my opinion.

In an ideal world. But in the real world, how does a cop gauge concentration? By the driver simply having their eyes open?

[Katman]

In an ideal world. But in the real world, how does a cop gauge concentration? By the driver simply having their eyes open?

Exactly - it can't be policed.

That's why instead of focusing on the poor driving of other road users around us we need to focus on our ability to ensure our safety.

[jellywrestler]

Exactly - it can't be policed.

That's why instead of focusing on the poor driving of other road users around us we need to focus on our ability to ensure our safety.
they're not focusing on poor driving cause it's too much hassle and costs to much/doesn't bring in money
give out a ticket for a vague offence and it's often taken to court taking the cop off the road to defend it etc. They'd rather use a machine that negates the need for them to be in court.
I support this idea, but make it that machine a camera so they can record all sorts of offences instead of brainwashing everyone that speed is the evil.
they could even sell footage for tv programs and also people would get to see themselves what their driving is like plus we'd have some sort of supervision on police chases, sorry fleeing drivers

[shrub]

In an ideal world. But in the real world, how does a cop gauge concentration? By the driver simply having their eyes open?

Every day I see people not giving it 100% - turning to talk to their passenger, eating, playing with the stereo etc. But they're not speeding, so are completely safe (in their eyes at least).

But you're right, it's a hard one to police and banning talking to passengers would not go down well even though I understand driver inattention is the single biggest cause of crashes. Maybe a campaign promoting awareness?

[shrub]

Exactly - it can't be policed.

That's why instead of focusing on the poor driving of other road users around us we need to focus on our ability to ensure our safety.

But I already do focus on my ability. I can't do any more than I already am, so I think it's entirely reasonable to expect other people to lift their game too.

[PrincessBandit]

...........so I think it's entirely reasonable to expect other people to lift their game too.

But not necessarily a safe thing to do.

[shrub]

But not necessarily a safe thing to do.

What's not safe about expecting TPTB to police dangerous driving or to demand that they engage in a process of educating people about paying attention when they drive? I won't ride any the less carefully, but it might just save the life of the noob who doesn't have the experience I have; or more importantly it might just save me from the unavoidable crash (and yes, some crashes are unavoidable).

Why should I be the only person who drives carefully?

[The Stranger]

I like the excuses... As if that mitigates the act.

Perhaps excuses don't, but flashers, now they're a different story. You can perform any illegal act provided you have your flashers on.
It's in the road code apparently.

[Hitcher]

You can perform any illegal act provided you have your flashers on.
It's in the road code apparently.

Riding an unregistered motorcycle the wrong way down a motorway, minus a helmet? I think not. "Apparently" claiming something is in the Road Code is unlikely to work for you in a Court of Law.

[MarkH]

Riding an unregistered motorcycle the wrong way down a motorway, minus a helmet? I think not. "Apparently" claiming something is in the Road Code is unlikely to work for you in a Court of Law.

That doesn't sound like the sort of thing you are likely to need to worry about a court of law for. And if you do you are pretty darned lucky.

[Mudfart]

"The consequences from conviction far outweigh the alledged serious nature of the perpetrated crime", apparently is all you need to say. Its been used twice now, once by a top rugby player who beat his wife.

[baptist]

Every day I see people not giving it 100% - turning to talk to their passenger, eating, playing with the stereo etc. But they're not speeding, so are completely safe (in their eyes at least).

But you're right, it's a hard one to police and banning talking to passengers would not go down well even though I understand driver inattention is the single biggest cause of crashes. Maybe a campaign promoting awareness?

I came close to being the victim of the worlds slowest off the other day in Henderson High Street. I was at the front of the line at a red light pedestrian crossing. A guy gets in the car parked in the bay nearest the crossing and starts to pull out to do a U turn before traffic gets a green light. He is looking at the cars that will be coming towards him and in his side mirror... not out his window at me, I wheel my bike back (as far as I could) and turn the bars and hit the horn... then he sees me... but completes the manouver missing me in the end by about a metre. If I had not moved he would have slowly bowled me.

Is that in attention, stupidity or just ignorance? How can you say you did not see the bike when a) you just walked past it to get in the car b) I am only a car width away from your window.:facepalm:

[Voltaire]

I rode my pushbike to work yesterday for a bit of exercise, 14kms...down Dominion Road.

my observations were:

Visy vests ....? are they like a cloak of invisibility?

Most drivers were 'focused' on getting to work/home

You really need a rear view mirror on a push bike

Theres quite a lot of scooters using bus lanes

I don't think I'd be keen on riding on the open road

Not much protection in a pair of shorts and a t shirt.

[shrub]

Is that in attention, stupidity or just ignorance? How can you say you did not see the bike when a) you just walked past it to get in the car b) I am only a car width away from your window.:facepalm:

I would say that the car driver in question did 'see' you, just didn't notice you. I believe that in the overwhelming majority of SMIDSY events the car driver concerned did see the bike, but didn't notice them, so didn't change their actions.

I simply cannot believe that human eyes and brains are incapable of seeing a moving object approx. 1.5 m tall by 1 metre wide with a shining light on it - right now I can see a sparrow sitting on a roof about 100m away and it has no lights on. Essentially human beings are motivated by fear or greed, and if they see something that is potentially a threat or to be desired they notice it - if 100 ordinary people walk past and one is a pretty girl in a bikini and one a big ugly Hells Angel, which ones will you notice? And when you buy something, have you ever noticed how often you now notice other people with what you bought? I believe so many of us get hit because people don't see us as having any significance by presenting a threat or being worth protecting, so while their eyes record us, their brain is not programmed to say "motorcyclist - pay attention, respond to him/her and don't pull out etc'.

I very, very rarely have to take evasive action on my bike, yet I do it all the time in my car, and I use my bike a hell of a lot more than the car which really only gets used to go to the gym and do the shopping. I put that down to a constant and focussed awareness of what car everyone else is doing, but also because I'm a big bastard (6ft3, 120 kgs) in black on a big, noisy black bike. Car drivers see me and when the image gets to their brain the brain says "threat, notice him and avoid him". When i worked in a bike shop I rode a lot of bikes, and I know from personal experience that when I rode 250s and even sports bikes, the behaviour of other road users degenerated. I see you describe your bike as a Yamaha nana putt putt - I wonder if the car driver would have seen you if you had been riding a Harley?

I don't think we should all put on weight, buy big bikes and wear black, and that's why I want to see TPTB trying to get the message through to our fellow road users that hitting us is dreadfully bad form and results in killing people. I want motorcyclists to be valued by other road users, but it's hard when we don't see that we have any right to demand that.

[Kiwi Graham]

It may have been covered in the thread (havent read it all);
I dont believe the big problem to be your average bike commuter, its the arrogant lycra clad brigade that travel in packs.

The single commuter nips in and out of traffic and quite possibly is oblivious to what is behind and arround him/her.

The lycra brigade just buldozes there way through the traffic hogging the entire lane sometimes ignoring traffic lights and pedestrian crossings and all done in high density areas!

This morning, peak hour traffic at Point Chev (Auckland) must have been a dozen of them 3-4 abreast belting down great North road and they call motorcyclists tempory citizens :facepalm:

[Scuba_Steve]

I rode my pushbike to work yesterday for a bit of exercise, 14kms...down Dominion Road.

my observations were:

Visy vests ....? are they like a cloak of invisibility?

Most drivers were 'focused' on getting to work/home

You really need a rear view mirror on a push bike

Theres quite a lot of scooters using bus lanes

I don't think I'd be keen on riding on the open road

Not much protection in a pair of shorts and a t shirt.

yes Vis vest are the "cloak of invisibility" or the cloak of "hit me I'm here"

Scooter's (like bikes, proper ones with engines) are allowed to use bus lanes... unfortunately

No shorts & shirt don't provide much protection, Lycra even less! I'm not that trusting to the piece of polystyrene they wear on their head either.

[MSTRS]

The single commuter nips in and out of traffic and quite possibly is oblivious to what is behind and around him/her.

The lycra brigade just bulldozes there way through the traffic hogging the entire lane sometimes ignoring traffic lights and pedestrian crossings and all done in high density areas!


Surely the two types you describe are as bad as each other. One of the former just lost her life for the very reason you mention...oblivious.

[baptist]

I would say that the car driver in question did 'see' you, just didn't notice you. I believe that in the overwhelming majority of SMIDSY events the car driver concerned did see the bike, but didn't notice them, so didn't change their actions... I want motorcyclists to be valued by other road users, but it's hard when we don't see that we have any right to demand that.

That is a scay thought actually. You are right I ride a small bike, a Scorpio, but being that close to the guy, and in my Dayglo vest I must have been seen...:shit:

As a new rider I have to say looking at all the concern over the deaths of the cyclists recently (which is awful) and the way Motorcyclists that die are looked at is worrying. I have said it in other posts, car drivers need to be made more aware of us and the dangers we face (I know Katman says it is all up to us but car drivers who look for us properly would help), so maybe a little more education for four wheel (or more) drivers about the vulnerability of all two wheel users would be of benefit?

[Pascal]

so maybe a little more education for four wheel (or more) drivers about the vulnerability of all two wheel users would be of benefit?

I'm all for a mandatory two year period on a motorcycle before you're allowed to drive a car, because I can't see any other education program really working. How many years have drivers been taught:

(a) Distractions are bad, they disrupt your concentration. And yet many continue to yak on their mobile phones while veering all across the road.

(b) Driving under the influence of alchohol and drugs are bad. Your ability to react and operate the vehicle is impaired. And yet, how many times do you see them on the road. Time after time after time. After how much education?

You can tell cagers as many things as you like, but unless it comes with a sharp, pointed lesson I don't think they will learn. Perhaps if the police started focussing on dangerous / distracted driving and had the ability for those items to really bite - maybe then we'd see an improvement.

[MarkH]

I'm all for a mandatory two year period on a motorcycle before you're allowed to drive a car

I agree 100% with this idea - it would force many drivers to learn useful skills. And those that just don't learn, well that idea would work like adding some chlorine to the gene pool - Darwinism would improve our species! It's not like there is a worldwide shortage of human beings anyway and those that just can't learn are never going to be the most valuable members of our society.

It would be nice to think that severe penalties for doing stupid shit in a car would be all we need - but it clearly doesn't work. Many drivers don't stop to think about the consequences of their actions, they act on impulse and sometimes someone dies - like the driver that opened the door in the path of the cyclist.

I've had to emergency brake for a car that didn't see me - I know he didn't see me because I could see his head through the side window, he was doing a 3 point turn and looking directly ahead at where he was going, not even bothering to look in the direction any other traffic might be coming from. Fuckin' taxi drivers! People like that could do with a little Darwinism IMO.

[shrub]

That is a scay thought actually. You are right I ride a small bike, a Scorpio, but being that close to the guy, and in my Dayglo vest I must have been seen...:shit:

As a new rider I have to say looking at all the concern over the deaths of the cyclists recently (which is awful) and the way Motorcyclists that die are looked at is worrying. I have said it in other posts, car drivers need to be made more aware of us and the dangers we face (I know Katman says it is all up to us but car drivers who look for us properly would help), so maybe a little more education for four wheel (or more) drivers about the vulnerability of all two wheel users would be of benefit?

Katman is right in that the only person you can influence RIGHT NOW is you, and constant concentration and working on your skills will save your life. I know a lot of riders that haven't had an off for 15, 20 years and more - my last off was in 1986, and that's not luck, it's how you ride. There is every chance you'll never have an off, but the odds of you making it unscathed will be much better if we can get other road users to act responsibly as well.

Get rider training, read books, listen to old farts about what we did wrong and TRUST NO CUNT AT NO TIME; but best of all get out on your bike as much as you can because the more you ride the better you'll become.

[Katman]

The reason that the idea of making it mandatory to spend a couple of years on two wheels before getting a car license will never happen is that amongst the powers that be there are far too many that would never want to see their kids on a motorcycle.

[baptist]

Get rider training, read books, listen to old farts about what we did wrong and TRUST NO CUNT AT NO TIME; but best of all get out on your bike as much as you can because the more you ride the better you'll become.

Agreed, BHS was a joke so before I even took my bike on the road I went on the competent rider course with riderskills and practised basics in car parks and then quiet daytime roads. Current book is also on handling skills (some is way over my head, more for the track, but the basics are very good) :yes:.

"TRUST NO CUNT AT NO TIME" my cage instructor used the same words to me 26 years ago!!!!! never forgot them.

[Hitcher]

and in my Dayglo vest I must have been seen...

The primary reason I'm opposed to dayglo clothing -- the unsubstantiated confidence it gives its wearers who would be more conspicuous if they could ride naked or completely invisible.

[MSTRS]

The primary reason I'm opposed to dayglo clothing -- the unsubstantiated confidence it gives its wearers who would be more conspicuous if they could ride naked or completely invisible.

Plus anecdotal evidence that their wearers tend to be more cautious, thus avoiding 'trouble'.

[baptist]

The primary reason I'm opposed to dayglo clothing -- the unsubstantiated confidence it gives its wearers who would be more conspicuous if they could ride naked or completely invisible.

:( There was a little sarcasm in my remark, to be next to someone in that vest and not be seen... I will wear it (certainly in rainy and low light conditions) but I have to say I think you have a point it does not seem to matter what you wear (not up for riding naked... people are more likely to crash when they are:puke:)

[Zookey]

The sad fact is ; that there are one hella of a lot of morons out there and like your happening they just don't give a stuff ,no matter whether you are in a car push bike motorbike or just plain walking,and it happens everytime you leave ya door.:shit:

[Drunken Monkey]

I'm all for a mandatory two year period on a motorcycle before you're allowed to drive a car, because I can't see any other education program really working...

...and at least a class 2 truck. Then everyone _should_ have a better appreciation for other road users (maybe even show you can ride a pushie safely on the road before you can sit your motorcycle BHS cert). Can't see it happening though.

[PrincessBandit]

Don't say my name three times while looking in a mirror!

Katman Katman Ka.....




no, somehow it just sounds wrong......

[Spearfish]

:( There was a little sarcasm in my remark, to be next to someone in that vest and not be seen... I will wear it (certainly in rainy and low light conditions) but I have to say I think you have a point it does not seem to matter what you wear (not up for riding naked... people are more likely to crash when they are:puke:)

Overall I think it helps in town centres but its a bit like all the safety devices in cars
it makes the driver more passive in their responsibility of managing risk...
ABS= don't need following distance
Front airbags= cant get hurt overtaking
Side airbags=don't need patience waiting to pull out
Traction control= don't need to slow for corners

Some things that seem limit high vis working front on are screens or a retina burner going, even the difference between a cruiser and sport bike sitting position lowers the visible area or a pack rack on the rear but they always see you side on. (just before you go over the roof??)
Not from experience but from looking at the visibility other riders.

[steve_t]

Overall I think it helps in town centres but its a bit like all the safety devices in cars
it makes the driver more passive in their responsibility of managing risk...
ABS= don't need following distance
Front airbags= cant get hurt overtaking
Side airbags=don't need patience waiting to pull out
Traction control= don't need to slow for corners


Is that right? I don't think a lot of people tailgating think it's OK to be closer because they have ABS but I'd love to see a study prove me wrong. I'm sure they just think they'll never crash

[MSTRS]

I think people tailgate because they have no idea of stopping distances. Or they think their reactions are up to it.
Or, and this is a biggie, they do it 'so that bastard behind me can't squeeze into the gap, meaning I'm one car back from what I was'.

[Voltaire]

I have noticed that I get tailgated more in an old car doing 100kmph that a modern one.

[Spearfish]

Is that right? I don't think a lot of people tailgating think it's OK to be closer because they have ABS but I'd love to see a study prove me wrong. I'm sure they just think they'll never crash

Maybe maybe not, but fear of injury is better at policing than policing,(generally) the more bullet proof cars become the more remote from "driving" operators of cars become.

Hey this is a bike forum don't defend cars!! (insert sarcasm widget here)

[shrub]

Hey this is a bike forum don't defend cars!! (insert sarcasm widget here)

Isn't that what KB is all about though?

[baptist]

Cyclists and Bikers now cars (and defending them:shit:).... are we a little off the point? who knows maybe, it may be time for 225249225250 some more really big hats to help focus our attention225251 but then again I may just have to say Ni!:innocent:

[steve_t]

Isn't that what KB is all about though?

Sarcasm? :corn:

[baptist]

Sarcasm? :corn:

(guessed that, just wanted more big hats:laugh::innocent:)

[Berries]

It seems a few cyclists have been bowled and killed on the road recently.
Whats the bet those fuckers in parliament throw money at this problem rather than screwing cyclists over like motorcyclists have been, for essentially the same reason.
Looks like this could be part of the solution -


Already one of the most bike-friendly cities in the world -- with 63 miles of bicycle lanes and events like the monthly Critical Mass -- San Francisco is now going one step further. Effective immediately, all city stop signs will hereby be considered "go" signs for cyclists.

"From here on out, if you're on a bike and you come to a 'stop' sign, just continue to zip on through as though there were no one else on the road," said Gary Roloff, director of the SF Metropolitan Transportation Commission. "Basically, do what you've always done."

Cyclists in the city hailed the announcement as long overdue.

http://www.headlineshirts.net/go-sign-t-shirt.html

227548

[Tink]

2 abreast? Holy crap! They were 4 abreast on the Old North Road the other day, there was a car on the wrong side of the road overtaking them on a corner leaving no room for me on MY side of the road. You can see why people get angry and then do stupid things

Easily solved, tail gate the bikers, on your horn until they move over, make the whole world aware they are in the way and not doing the minimum speed limit of 70km on the open road, then on your plate have, when you pass them have a sticker saying "Get a engine cyclists, or move over" and slow them down by getting in their way....