A miner issue

[Maha]

Pike River Mine....
Now, as I understand it so far....
Theres has been an explosion, how big, how small? nobody really knows at this stage.
But, some folk down that way already have the 29 un-accounted for....dead!
Well thats the way they are coming accross in TV3....:facepalm:

The minors have no communitcation with the those outside, thats a given.
They are probably playing 500 to past the time while they await rescue.

And dont get me started on Reefton...:shit:

[ellipsis]

...fucking media leeches...hanging out for bad news is their whole purpose in life...lets hope they are all just waiting down there....fraught times for friends and family....

[schrodingers cat]

Our own domestic Chilean Mine Disaster!!!!

Lets start bidding for movie rights!

Pity the film will get made in Agentina since the local actors made fools of themselves

I wish the media would learn to 'Hurry up and Wait'. Half hourly updates full of speculation are not useful

[Kickaha]

Our own domestic Chilean Mine Disaster!!!!


I hope the outcome is as good, because of what happened over there people will expect it

[Genie]

There's a man down there I know...it's not a pleasant occassion waiting to hear if he will be out soon, he has a wife and two young sons...my thoughts and prayers are with those down there and their families and friends.

[Maha]

There is no doubt in my mind that they will appear happy/hungry and in need of a cold beer.

As for Reefton...they gave them the first ever street lights in NZ because, lets face it, Reefton was and continues to be the lower colon of NZ. Bless em' :love:

[Genie]

You're always bagging poor wee reefton, it has the countries bestest skatepark and it's boasts a lotto winner or two. beautiful countryside, the quiet life...and the roads for riding around...hmmm.
I get it now, you is jealous that you have to live way the hell up there and you miss out on all the fun down this way. Stop picking on little wee Reefton.

[Maha]

You're always bagging poor wee reefton, it has the countries bestest skatepark and it's boasts a lotto winner or two. beautiful countryside, the quiet life...and the roads for riding around...hmmm.
I get it now, you is jealous that you have to live way the hell up there and you miss out on all the fun down this way. Stop picking on little wee Reefton.

Bestest skatepark?.....Im so there.....:corn:
Oh wait, na, it can only be use 3 months of the year due to the other 9 months being iced over or rain or both.:facepalm:

[Smokin]

Theres media everywhere, Choppers on the ground, not much rain but the cloud is low and thick, The westpac rescue chopper came through fast a wee while ago but for what reason I don't know. Most people around here know at least one person in there. I know 3 of them, 2 are mates.

[Paul in NZ]

Been following this, spent a bit of time around there working. Bloody shitty thing to happen and being underground makes me a bit squirmy at the best of times.

Good Luck fellas. We are all rootin for ya...

[Bald Eagle]

Thoughts with the families and friends.

[Genestho]

Must be so damn frustrating and an anxious time for everyone involved, between waiting for conclusive gas tests and the weather hampering efforts.

Hard call for those running rescue ops, and the brave volunteer rescuers too.
Bring them out boys, stating the obvious - let's hope the opportunity is soon.

Love and thoughts with those in the Mine, family, friends and the rescue team. May the force be with you. Best of luck.

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=Pike

[kb_SF1]

Watched the press conference early this pm, had to wonder are some of the so called reporters actually reporting the news or trying to make it, interviewing their key boards?

Feel for the families and the rescue teams who will know all of those down there.

[Paul in NZ]

Yeah - those reporters were pissing me off too... What a bunch of cunts. Some drop kick kinda insinuating they were delaying rescue cos they were scared or some such... What a wanker - its not like that prick was going down there was it?

[ynot slow]

Best of luck for those with family there.Only negative thing I've heard and sounded ominous was after the explosion and 2 guys came out,they said another 2 guys were just behind them,they haven't surfaced yet,not a nice thought for the families for sure.

[Winston001]

This is bloody awful. Last night I thought the miners would be reached in short order. Its a straight(ish) tunnel, not a deep shaft. Now.......I'm not so sure.

Does anyone understand the problems? I'd have thought rescuers could rush in wearing breathing gear and at least establish if the roof has breached or contact the men. But clearly I know nothing about such things.

Anyone??

[JimO]

i think the main problem is causing another gas explosion

[Genestho]

My take is:

They say there's inconclusive levels of Methane Ethane and Carbon Monoxide.

Three ingredients must be present to sustain a fire.
There must be fuel present (something that can burn), an oxidiser and an ignition source.

The oxygen in the air can be the oxidiser.

The ignition source might be a nearby fire, or sparks generated by friction, or from static electricity.

So I figure this is the problem, as soon as it's opened up it could go boom.

They have to make sure the gases are at acceptable levels to make sure it doesn't go off, to get everyone in and out safe. (Including the rescue team)

[onearmedbandit]

My thoughts with all involved.

We are all quick to blame the media, but we are the ones turning the TV on and watching and buying the newspapers. Doesn't excuse them twisting the facts, but we stand by apathetically lining their pockets.

[Edbear]

My thoughts with all involved.

We are all quick to blame the media, but we are the ones turning the TV on and watching and buying the newspapers. Doesn't excuse them twisting the facts, but we stand by apathetically lining their pockets.

Unfortunately it's the only way we can know anything and those of us with half a brain are waiting for actual news to come through and trying not to shoot the TV in the meantime...

[Okey Dokey]

Our thoughts are with the miners and their loved ones, all day and through tonight, too.

[Maha]

Unfortunately it's the only way we can know anything and those of us with half a brain are waiting for actual news to come through and trying not to shoot the TV in the meantime...

Emotions seem to creep in after a short while of nothingness Ed.
By that I mean, if there is little or no progress, things are said by those on the spot that can be regretted at a later date. If you know what I mean.

[Edbear]

Yup, esp when reporters are trying to fill in time. Watched the interviews this morning with the local authorities and they were being sensible and offering good advice and were very open. They also criticised some media and public for being less than helpful with some comments.

[schrodingers cat]

Why don't the reporters get back on the interweb to gather up some infoitainment to pad out the sports reports like they usually do?
They can practice their grave expressions and cliches off screen while the people who know what they are doing look after things

[PrincessBandit]

Mining communities must live with this possible tragedy continually. That is not to say I minimise what they're going through, but events like this must be something they are always aware of.

Personally I hope that all the men are alive and well, waiting patiently for rescue. Loved ones anxiously awaiting their exodus out are surely aware of the foolhardiness of a fast but ill-prepared attempt.

Whatever the outcome, good or bad, it is always the waiting and uncertainty that is hardest. I am sure that prayers are being said for the community around the country right now.

[fuknKIWI]

Our thoughts are with the miners and their loved ones, all day and through tonight, too.

+1
The waiting is the hardest part, just like the song says.

[Urano]

well, someone was curious...
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/129808-Chilean-mine-rescue?highlight=miners


now, all the best to those guys and the families.
kinda hard times in south island lately...
:(

[twinbruva]

You're always bagging poor wee reefton, it has the countries bestest skatepark and it's boasts a lotto winner or two. beautiful countryside, the quiet life...and the roads for riding around...hmmm.
I get it now, you is jealous that you have to live way the hell up there and you miss out on all the fun down this way. Stop picking on little wee Reefton.

Reefton? WTF? It sucks. Plain and simple.

[Kickaha]

Reefton? WTF? It sucks. Plain and simple.


That's pretty fucking good coming from someone who lists Windwhistle as their location :facepalm:

[Maha]

Gotta hand it to that Peter Whittall, he is answering those unscrpited questions without hesitation.

[Genestho]

Gotta hand it to that Peter Whittall, he is answering those unscrpited questions without hesitation.

I agree, he's showing amazing leadership, patient, open, disciplined, empathetic, explaining the issues simply, a very good communicator. Pretty good for someone under enormous pressure - who wouldn've slept much.

[fuknKIWI]

Here in WA (Wait Awhile) I'm none the wiser as to the latest news but will be soon.
I just wanted to make a couple of points;
that's a most unfortunate typo in the thread title, it's a major issue.
Shame on those getting into pettty parochial bla on a thread of this nature, it's disrespectful & illustrates some of the less desirable aspects of this site.

I'm not the praying type but I sincerely hope for a positive outcome, a big ask I know.

[Milts]

Also hoping for the best but I think that would be seriously optimistic. I think the suggestion that they are sitting around playing cards waiting for rescue is more than optimistic. It must be terrible for those who know them, but this situation is totally unlike that in Chile and false hope is a bitch.

[kevfromcoro]

Any update on this terrible incendent......
The news here is a bit scratchy.....

May our thoughts be with them

[twinbruva]

That's pretty fucking good coming from someone who lists Windwhistle as their location :facepalm:

As it happens I had a beer in Reefton just a few weeks ago. Windwhistle? :whistle: There you go.....

[twinbruva]

I agree, he's showing amazing leadership, patient, open, disciplined, empathetic, explaining the issues simply, a very good communicator. Pretty good for someone under enormous pressure - who wouldn've slept much.

We were thinking the same thing. He thinks about what he's about to say and I have yet to see him deliver any extraneous waffle. We should be so lucky with our politicians and journo's.

[Maha]

Any update on this terrible incendent......
The news here is a bit scratchy.....

May our thoughts be with them

Still nothing of real substance to report Kev. They are still checking the gas levels, they are sending a robot into the mine today (I think) with a fibre optic cable and cameras.
Day five now. The minors have no food (only what they would have taken with them on the day) the temp will be very hot, with no air flow.

They dont if the ignition source of the first explosion is still active or not, that is the primary reason they cant go into the mine.
If it is stll active, there is a good chance of a secondary explosion because methane is seeping out of the coal face.
They will know more on this today when the robot is sent in.
They know where in the mine the minors are.

[doc]

I agree, he's showing amazing leadership, patient, open, disciplined, empathetic, explaining the issues simply, a very good communicator. Pretty good for someone under enormous pressure - who wouldn've slept much.

I think the Kiwi clobbering machine may deal to him after it's all over. The experts are already mumbling about safety last year. Funny how they only speakup publicly now

[Swoop]

It seems that the mineshaft runs uphill, rather than down. Presumably this makes the dissipation of the gas more challenging?:scratch:

[JimO]

the robot has got wet in the mine and broken down

[onearmedbandit]

the robot has got wet in the mine and broken down

Yeah last night. They are going to try to send it in again.

[Genestho]

I think the Kiwi clobbering machine may deal to him after it's all over. The experts are already mumbling about safety last year. Funny how they only speakup publicly now
I agree with you, I think it's going to be an extremely tough road for him whichever way this goes, and it will go further into debate about the dangers of mining in general.

Some of the reporting needs a good kick up the arse though. People are still ringing talk back asking and suggesting inane things, ignorant of the issues.

You watch the press conference and later the words are twisted and misreported..

I'm only watching the press conferences now, the rest of it I don't need to see or hear.

[scott411]

I agree with you, I think it's going to be an extremely tough road for him whichever way this goes, and it will go further into debate about the dangers of mining in general.

Some of the reporting needs a good kick up the arse though. People are still ringing talk back asking and suggesting inane things, ignorant of the issues.

You watch the press conference and later the words are twisted and misreported..

I'm only watching the press conferences now, the rest of it I don't need to see or hear.

listening to talk back yesterday was embarrassing, some of the comments and suggestions goes to show just how stupid average humans can be

[Maha]

I'm only watching the press conferences now, the rest of it I don't need to see or hear.

Me too Jos, the updates are all that I need know, all the ifs/why dont theys and how comes, go under the heading of Bullshit.
I know nothing at all about mine recues.

[kevfromcoro]

listening to talk back yesterday was embarrassing, some of the comments and suggestions goes to show just how stupid average humans can be

Intervieved a bloke here on national TV.....

His words were.....

I will go over there and get them out....

Iam not scared of nufin..... :tugger:

[Paul in NZ]

Bitch of a thing really. Bloody sad...

Robots a bit of a joke though... sheesh.... Hope it never rains if the army need it...

[onearmedbandit]

Yeah, now the report is it went in this morning at 6 and broke down 500m into the tunnel, and they will not be using it further.

[Maha]

They have contacted the US an Aussie to have another flown in....more time lost.

[Maha]

Intervieved a bloke here on national TV.....

His words were.....

I will go over there and get them out....

Iam not scared of nufin..... :tugger:

John Rambo?.....:facepalm:

[Laava]

Humour aside, I find it incredible that this thing can't handle a bit of water! Don't firemen at refineries have all the gear to go into these gaseous environs?
http://crujonessociety.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/johnny5isalive.jpg
No Disassemble!

[onearmedbandit]

All speculation aside, I don't think there is any one who wants to rescue(?) these guys more than the crew on site at the mine. If, with all the facts, options, resources, offers of help, etc they can't go in then who the fuck are we to second guess them.

[doc]

I agree with you, I think it's going to be an extremely tough road for him whichever way this goes, and it will go further into debate about the dangers of mining in general.

Some of the reporting needs a good kick up the arse though. People are still ringing talk back asking and suggesting inane things, ignorant of the issues.

You watch the press conference and later the words are twisted and misreported..

I'm only watching the press conferences now, the rest of it I don't need to see or hear.

It's started already

http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/Pike-River-future-doubt-nzpa-3537367936.html;_ylt=As1inYMEqnqp.Sd99KE2emn5K5NG; _ylu=X3oDMTFkMWZqZ21lBHBvcwM0BHNlYwNuZXdzSHViQXJ0a WNsZUxpc3QEc2xrA3Bpa2VyaXZlcm1pbg--?x=0

[Mom]

Humour aside, I find it incredible that this thing can't handle a bit of water! Don't firemen at refineries have all the gear to go into these gaseous environs?


They have explained that it is an entirely different scenario in a mine, different breathing apparatus and environment. They said that firemen have an escape route always reasonably close to them, the mine rescue people will already be 2.5 kms from escape before they even start looking for the ones that are down there.

Must be so frustrating for everyone involved.

[onearmedbandit]

The talk has really taken a turn now. The video of the blast was disturbing.

[Laava]

But 2people walked out from that. Remains to be seen how much worse it might have been further in.

[Genestho]

Bugger it, it's not over till it's over. Call me silly I don't care. I will remain in hope until It's known different.

[tri boy]

But 2people walked out from that. Remains to be seen how much worse it might have been further in.

I'm picking a whole lot worse.
The bloke that walked out assisting his mate, had been knocked unconcious by the blast. He was estimated to be 500mtrs from the ignition zone.
I have witnessed a bleve of a large LPG storage container in Cairns in 1986. We were knocked from our feet, and were approx 6-700mtrs from it.

I feel for the mines rescue team. They would be itching to help, but injuring/killing any of them would be more tragedy.

[Pussy]

Bugger it, it's not over till it's over. Call me silly I don't care. I will remain in hope until It's known different.

Yep.... holding out hope for them too.

[scissorhands]

Watching Campbell Live tonight it sounds like rescue coordination is a fuck up

[twinbruva]

Watching Campbell Live tonight it sounds like rescue coordination is a fuck up

Campbell Live ????
:killingme:killingme:killingme

[Motu]

Heads will roll which ever way it goes - the knives are being sharpened now.The talking head cop has a noose around his neck,and there are four hands on every chair leg.It sucks to be anyone near Pike River now.Sounds like a motorcycle shop thread on KB,everyone is an expert and the only way is down.

[twinbruva]

Heads will roll which ever way it goes - the knives are being sharpened now.The talking head cop has a noose around his neck,and there are four hands on every chair leg.It sucks to be anyone near Pike River now.Sounds like a motorcycle shop thread on KB,everyone is an expert and the only way is down.

Gary Knowles is a cock anyway.

[Smokin]

They have cotacted the US an Aussie to have another flown in....more time lost.
It turned up at 5pm tonight, I watched the Hurcules land and the chopper was about 1 minute behind it for the pickup, Couldnt beleave how fast a plane of that size can stop.

[White trash]

*Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of mining procedures, risks or stratedgies*

But if it were my mates and son in that mine, I'd be baying for blood. As I'm sure the poor folk involved are now. It's four day, FOUR DAYS on, and nothing appears to have happened other than some drilling and a shitload of new conferences. I simply can not believe, that there's no breathing aides that a team could have been dispatched immediately. There is no shortage of volunteers. Campbell showed an interesting comparison between a similar scenario in the states, 4 hours before the rescue team went in. They had to retreat many times, but the effort was made.

In todays day and age, I can not believe that there is no way for a team with proper breathing and backup equipment to be armed with gas analysers and begin an expedition.

These are peoples SONS, FATHERS, GRANDFATHERS and BROTHERS for fucks sake. Let those who would take the risk, take it.

[White trash]

Watching Campbell Live tonight it sounds like rescue coordination is a fuck up

Too much erring on the side of caution? I believe so.

[Edbear]

We're all experts in our lounges. We have to remember, as WT so eloquently put it, we are not experts and know nothing of what we are discussing.

Down at the site and in communication from around the world ARE the experts who know what they are doing and have done this many times before. Imagine the headlines if they had gone in and caused a second blast as happened in Aus, killing all in the mine including the rescuers... Imagine the repercussions and recrimination then!

To say heads will roll may be true but that will hopefully depend upon the proper results of proper reviews and inquiries, not because of a media lynching of people they can see and thereby focus their misguided and ignorant ire upon.

It's not just the life of the volunteer willing to go in regardless of the risk they had to consider, it was also the possibility that there were survivors down there who would certainly be killed in a secondary blast.

Let's just pull our heads in and accept that far more qualified people than us are doing their best to resolve a horrible situation that we know nothing about.

[White trash]

It's not just the life of the volunteer willing to go in regardless of the risk they had to consider, it was also the possibility that there were survivors down there who would certainly be killed in a secondary blast..

Sorry bro, I don't think we're on the same page here. There are steps that can be taken to ensure risk of a second explosion is minimized. What do you think is done when they have a leak or major rupture on a drilling rig and need to evacuate? Tell everyone to hide under theirbed and not move in case they cause an explosion?

There are instruments to detect gas levels and from what I can tell, there's no reason not to moblize people as far as they can safely travel. At the moment, they don't know whether the gas levels are high, low or non existant. Why aren't teams moving as far as they can safely?

[Edbear]

We'd need to ask the experts that one... They've got the gear and know how to use it and they're onsite desperate to get in there and consulting constantly with all the other experts from all around the world.

[scumdog]

Maybe those in charge just like fucking up peoples lives??:blink:







(Well that's the sort of theory you see on KB at times)

[scumdog]

Watching Campbell Live tonight it sounds like rescue coordination is a fuck up

Yeah well the media are good at making things sound like a fuck up.:angry:

I bet they could make tomorrows sunrise seem like one.....:yes:

[R6_kid]

You want to know what tension is. Sitting down to eat dinner in a room full of underground miners with this shit all over the news for the second time in a few months.

We've just had a big safety focus campaign the other week, and safety in general here is the overriding thing that determines if work goes ahead or not. Would hate to be in the shoes of the families of those guys down there, and I'm kinda glad I work in an office out here!

[twinbruva]

Yeah well the media are good at making things sound like a fuck up.:angry:

I bet they could make tomorrows sunrise seem like one.....:yes:

That's if there is one.

[White trash]

We'd need to ask the experts that one... They've got the gear and know how to use it and they're onsite desperate to get in there and consulting constantly with all the other experts from all around the world.

.....being told to stand back until it's guarunteed tha it's safe.......

Sometimes, risks need to be taken. I think this is one of those times. I can not bear to imagine the rescue team finally getting the go ahead on Thursday, only to find 29 dehydrated bodies huddled around a ruptured ventilation pipe that's been blowing in clean air for them to breath, two days too late.

Not saying everyone on site or making the decisions doesn't have the very best of intentions, I'm simply wondering if they're not being overly cautious.

If it was my son down there, I'd be the very first picking up the equipment required and moving. Anyone standing in my path would cop a Glock. I can't believe the restraint shown by the families thus far. They're far more reasonable than I.

[White trash]

I ask this, "How many rescuers lost their lives at Upper Big Branch?"

[scissorhands]

Remember: Life is not a rehersal and "ships are safe in the harbour - but that's not what ships are for".

[tri boy]

WT, your either trolling, or a huge know it all.
If you want to experience a similar situation, stand in a room fill with an unknown mix of LPG and air while smoking a cigarette.
Locked door, with no escape, and throw in a vent pumping methane/carbon monoixde in.
Try that, and then get back to us.........................................maybe.

A blast that lasts for over 50sec is huge.

[Grubber]

Watching Campbell Live tonight it sounds like rescue coordination is a fuck up

Don't believe everything you read in the papers sonny!:yes:

Campbell is a sensationalist, just like the rest of the media.

[Grubber]

I feel for those families on the coast, but i think we should all sit back and let the real EXPERTS try and fix this.
Would hate to be in the same circumstances for sure.

[Maha]

I feel for those families on the coast, but i think we should all sit back and let the real EXPERTS try and fix this.
Would hate to be in the same circumstances for sure.

The families are saying different.
They beleive there is one person getting in the way and thats Supt Knowles.
The mine rescuers want to go into the mine, the air is clear for the first 2 kms or so.
Another question has been asked this morning..should the Police be running the rescue operation?

[doc]

I feel for those families on the coast, but i think we should all sit back and let the real EXPERTS try and fix this.
Would hate to be in the same circumstances for sure.

The problem appears to be the PR machine and the way they are releasing the severity of the disaster in steps to the family. They deserved full disclosure. WTF now it is a massive 50 second blast. The families were given hope and now it's been taken away.

[Maha]

The problem appears to be the PR machine and the way they are releasing the severity of the disaster in steps to the family. They deserved full disclosure. WTF now it is a massive 50 second blast. The families were given hope and now it's been taken away.

Certainly makes you wonder what it would have like closer to the blast site.
So the robot was started up over night and made to about the 1000mt mark but has come the end of its battery life.

[scissorhands]

Don't believe everything you read in the papers sonny!:yes:

Campbell is a sensationalist, just like the rest of the media.

The people I'm believing are the miners and experienced rescuers, who are the ones calling fuck up, not Campsmell, sonny!:yes:

In fact, YOUR the one parroting the media:yes::yes:



Why the fuck didnt they strap on extra batteries and wire in?:facepalm::facepalm:

So simple to do! Surely the range on existing batteries is calculable? Now the only tool they had is stuck unusable? Feck

More good press for those in charge!

[Crisis management]

Now the only tool they had is stuck unusable?

It's a bomb disposal / de-mining robot intended for outdoor use on the surface within 100m of it's operator, it's not a mine rescue robot designed for that environment, there's a few subtle differences.......It's being used because it's all we have available in this country.

About the "rescue should go ahead regardless" theme....let's assume the environment is not suitable for breathing shall we? How long does an air tank last...30 minutes? So they can walk in for 15 minutes then come back for a refill or drag an air hose 2.5kms long behind them over rough terrain, tell me how this works?

I've only been involved with maritime search and rescue so know nothing about the mines but if their SAR team is anything like all the other SAR volunters I know they would have been in there if it was safe to do so, regardless of whether the police said go or stay. I'm picking it isn't very safe to go in there and believe it or not, when you are a SAR volunteer you want to save people but also go home yourself at the end of the job.

Maybe if you guys feel so strongly about helping you could pop over the Pike River and have a go yourselves?

[Edbear]

The families are saying different.
They beleive there is one person getting in the way and thats Supt Knowles.
The mine rescuers want to go into the mine, the air is clear for the first 2 kms or so.
Another question has been asked this morning..should the Police be running the rescue operation?

Someone has to run it but I've been watching every day and I'm sure that the Police are taking advice from the experts and if they were assured it was safe they would have no hesitation in going in. Remember they are in constant contact with experts around the world. So as to "running the operation" I think you'll find the consultants from around the world and locally are the experts making the judgements based on monitoring and discussion and advising the authorities who are not experts as to the situation. I can't see Gary Knowles or Peter Whittle going against the advice they are being given on a minute by minute basis.


The people I'm believing are the miners and experienced rescuers, who are the ones calling fuck up, not Campsmell, sonny!:yes:

In fact, YOUR the one parroting the media:yes::yes:

Why the fuck didnt they strap on extra batteries and wire in?:facepalm::facepalm:

So simple to do! Surely the range on existing batteries is calculable? Now the only tool they had is stuck unusable? Feck

More good press for those in charge!

Being in my current situation I am able to keep up all day every day with the news. I watch every media conference and hear every word said by those in charge and I hear the questions being asked by the media. The mine rescuers and miners are not calling it a stuff up and the authorities are listening to the advice of the experts.

The miner's families are as frustrated and anxious as everyone else but support the rescue team implicitly despite their fear. I heard John Campbell's questions at one of the conferences and he was being an inane idiot, as he usually is, asking a stupid and irrelevant question about why they delayed releasing the video, pushing the point despite being given a clear answer.

The media are then going away and putting their own spin on the information they have been given and precious little of the published story is actually what was given them, but it is bulked out and hyped up to fill space and sell their papers and TV News shows.

[Grubber]

It's a bomb disposal / de-mining robot intended for outdoor use on the surface within 100m of it's operator, it's not a mine rescue robot designed for that environment, there's a few subtle differences.......It's being used because it's all we have available in this country.

About the "rescue should go ahead regardless" theme....let's assume the environment is not suitable for breathing shall we? How long does an air tank last...30 minutes? So they can walk in for 15 minutes then come back for a refill or drag an air hose 2.5kms long behind them over rough terrain, tell me how this works?

I've only been involved with maritime search and rescue so know nothing about the mines but if their SAR team is anything like all the other SAR volunters I know they would have been in there if it was safe to do so, regardless of whether the police said go or stay. I'm picking it isn't very safe to go in there and believe it or not, when you are a SAR volunteer you want to save people but also go home yourself at the end of the job.

Maybe if you guys feel so strongly about helping you could pop over the Pike River and have a go yourselves?

My sentiments exactly. If all these Superhuman characters from the mining fraternity that have voiced their opinions so widely on the MEDIA are so sure they are right about these so called holdups, were to go off and do their thing, we may well end up with more dead than we would like.
I'm no expert on these matters and am happy to let the ones who are just get on with it. The fellas siting at the BBQ table on tele last night should maybe do the same, cause i figure if they were so damn good, they would be part of the rescue team themselves.

[Edbear]

I have great sympathy for the public faces as they are the natural target for vilification and do not deserve the criticism they are receiving. We're seeing mob hysteria developing by ignorant people crying very loudly and I fear a media lynch mob looking for someone to blame for not going in straight away.

People cannot accept the fact that the operation is being run by miners, experienced mine rescue teams and experts from around the world and the authorities making the decisions are being advised and guided by expert and experienced opinion and onsite data. Those criticising and making the most noise are those who have NO IDEA what they are talking about and speak from total ignorance and would be laughed at and ridiculed and even condemned were they to go there and voice their ignorance personally to the rescue teams!

Yeah, the world's full of armchair experts...

[Virago]

Someone has to run it but I've been watching every day and I'm sure that the Police are taking advice from the experts and if they were assured it was safe they would have no hesitation in going in. Remember they are in constant contact with experts around the world. So as to "running the operation" I think you'll find the consultants from around the world and locally are the experts making the judgements based on monitoring and discussion and advising the authorities who are not experts as to the situation. I can't see Gary Knowles or Peter Whittle going against the advice they are being given on a minute by minute basis...

That's certainly the situation as I see it. Gary Knowles is making the executive decisions based on advice from the experts - if he wasn't doing so there would have been anarchy on site long before now.

His only downfall is his autocratic style - constant references to "I" and "me", rather than "we" and "us". But as the unfortunate patsy who has to make the ultimate and dire decisions, it is quite understandable.

Give the man a break.

[Grubber]

The people I'm believing are the miners and experienced rescuers, who are the ones calling fuck up, not Campsmell, sonny!:yes:

In fact, YOUR the one parroting the media:yes::yes:



Why the fuck didnt they strap on extra batteries and wire in?:facepalm::facepalm:

So simple to do! Surely the range on existing batteries is calculable? Now the only tool they had is stuck unusable? Feck

More good press for those in charge!

Were did you get your info from the miners and rescuers???? Were you talking to them???
I would say you got it either from tv or newspaper. ei: media.

One can sit here and spout on about all these fantastic ideas, yet have no first hand knowledge of the place or situation.
For example, do you have any idea of the logic behind the robot.
My guess, and i repeat, GUESS is that they would use any form of help available to them that was possible at the time to achieve anything they could from it. No matter how little or how much they gained it would have to be a positive effort.
They appear to have the best of the best there trying to do the best they can.
I say stand behind them and hope like fuck they succeed.

[Crisis management]

That's certainly the situation as I see it. Gary Knowles is making the executive decisions based on advice from the experts - if he wasn't doing so there would have been anarchy on site long before now.

You are correct, police run all SAR in New Zealand simply because they have the largest national organisation and someone has to have overall control, not because they are experts in a given field. In my experience they listen very well to the local experts and take their advice.

[danchop]

very disturbing and sad outcome for new zealand really,sorry for the families and workmates of these guys.
i have followed the development of pike river weekly/daily since 2004,and just seen around $180000 disappear from me yesterday because of it.i guess ill have to go back to work now instead of playing with my bikes everyday

[Banditbandit]

The people I'm believing are the miners and experienced rescuers, who are the ones calling fuck up, not Campsmell, sonny!:yes:

In fact, YOUR the one parroting the media:yes::yes:




Maybe .. unless you are one of the families , or one of the mine staff, everything you know is filtered through the media ... they pick and choose which bits to show you and which bits not to show you ...

I've been a working journalist - I'd be pumping this story as hard as I could .. and they are ...

It would be a miracle if anyone survived the blast - As I heard a mother on Nat Radio say this morning, she knew on FRiday that her son was not coming home alive ..

But we won't know until someone gets into the mine to look ... and it's not worth repeating the Australian example - going in too soon - having a second explosion and killing the rescuers ...

Of course the miners would go down the mine to look for their mates - they'd take the risk ... then if it blew again, someone else woud be in the gun for letting them go ...

And the miners outside don't want to think that it would take this long to get them out if it happened to them ... otherwise they might not go down there themselves ... would you ?

[imdying]

They're not in a hurry to risk more lives because they're already dead.

If they're not, and they've survived this long (hopefully, it could happen, it's a funny shape in there, maybe somebody survived) then a few more days hopefully won't matter.

Yay for the media putting comments from grieving fathers on the news making them sound like cocks. Fuck TV3, I'd have no problem driving a van full of fertiliser through their front door. Jihad that you wankers.

[Genestho]

(Not my words) "I work in the mining industry and have spent time at Pike River as well as other various mines around NZ, I work underground and understand the dangers and risks associated with working in gassy mines, I know a couple of the guys down there and want them out as much as anyone else.

I have been involved (indirectly) with the rescue attempt by supplying and co-ordinating the delivery of the gas sampling tubes that are currently being installed to measure the mine gasses down the pilot hole being bored to the working faces.

I have heard a lot of talk over the last five days about what the rescuers are 'not' doing, how 'slow' the rescuers have been to respond and how things could be done a whole lot better. I have heard comments where people are saying 'just let the rescuers in there' and 'why don't the rescuers just wear a rubber suit to prevent sparks' etc.

These types of comments are being made by people that do not fully understand the complexities of mine gasses and the atmosphere that remains after an explosion.

The atmosphere that remains after a 'Coal' mine explosion is known in the coal mining industry as 'Afterdamp', this is an atmosphere which is Oxygen deficient and is rich in Carbon Monoxide and Methane, it also has a number of other Flammable and Toxic gasses present depending on the type of coal in the mine and what materials are in the mine at the time of the explosion and may be burning as a result (rubber, timber etc).

Afterdamp is an extremely dangerous atmosphere and must be managed very carefully.

The dilemma the rescuers face now is that 'accurate' gas readings cannot be taken from outside the mine vent shaft or main entrance portal.

The Borehole: This is the best option currently available, the borehole will allow gas sampling tubes to be lowered down to take gas readings, listen for any noises and measure temperatures.

The Robot: A long shot but worth a go, the robots primary objective is to take gas readings. In the main access tunnel there are air & water pipes, electrical cables, ventilation ducting, spare conveyor rollers, timber blocks, steel mesh sheets and whole list of other consumable items used daily underground. All of these materials would be picked and and strewn all over the tunnel. There is no way the robot was ever going to negotiate all of that debris, not to mention the atmosphere will be full of smoke so the robot operator will have very limited visibility (maybe up to a metre, if at all). The Robot was probably being guided by sonar due to poor visibilty, remember also it is dragging a control cable behind it which is likely to snag on the first hurdle.

Once accurate gas readings are collected the rescuers will know exactly what they are dealing with.

Q: Where does Methane come from?

A: Methane occurs naturally in 'Newly Won' coal (coal that is recently exposed to air during normal mining operations), after an explosion there could be a lot of coal that is exposed to air resulting in increased levels of Methane.

Q: Why don't they just send someone in with a breathing set?

A: Because accurate gas readings cannot be taken the rescuers do not know what is going on, unfortunately a second explosion is almost inevitable. Methane is explosive between 5%-15%, at the moment the Methane level in the mine could be up around 50% and could also be as low as 17%, if the Methane level reaches 15% a secondary explosion will very likely occur.

A second explosion could happen literally at any time without warning and could potentially be much, much bigger than the initial explosion.

The rise and fall in the barometer can also have a huge affect on mine gasses.

Example:

1. High Barometric Pressure (fine weather) pushes Methane back into the mine and can lower Methane levels.

2. Low Barometric Pressure (cloudy / bad weather) allows Methane to be released more easily out of coal and can increase Methane levels.

Lets say the weather outside is cloudy and the Methane level in the mine is at 17% (too rich to burn), the weather turns fine (the barometer rises) and pushes the Methane out the ventilation shaft and back into the coal faces. The concentration of Methane in the mine falls into the 5-15% range and ignites with the fires currently going on underground (we know there are fires because of the Carbon Monoxide readings being taken).

If this Methane ignites we could have a much bigger explosion, if rescuers are underground conducting a search (remember the atmosphere is filled with smoke and will have limited visibility) we could have an even bigger rescue / recovery mission on our hands.

This post is a bit long winded sorry, but this situation is something I am very concerned about and think about on a daily basis when I am underground.

I hope I have explained the actions of the rescuers to give the general public a better understanding of why the decisions that are being made are in everyones best interests. I want people to understand that the situation at Pike is extremely dire and everything that can possibly be done is being done."

[scumdog]

Yeah, the world's full of armchair experts...

Particularly the KB armchair/key-board experts....:rolleyes::argh:

[scumdog]

Maybe if you guys feel so strongly about helping you could pop over the Pike River and have a go yourselves?


What??

They'd have to step away from their beloved key-boards.......:blink::rolleyes:

[Banditbandit]

This post is a bit long winded sorry

Thank you. It was worth the read.

[Genestho]

"Unfortunately the odds are very highly stacked against the boys underground, I feel that by informing the public of the decisions that are being made will better prepare the families and the public for what the future holds.

Hopefully one day the people who have criticised the actions of the Police and the Rescue Teams will realise that the decisions that have been made were the best and at the time, and that further loss of life was prevented.

I am an eternal optimist however, eventually we will all have to face reality.

My heart truly goes out to Police Superintendent Gary Knowles, Mr Knowles has statutory control of the situation but he is merely relaying the findings and operating on the advice of the mines rescue teams from NZ and overseas.

Once the gas readings have been analysed a VERY big call will have to be made.

**DELETED***

This is a truly catastrophic event and all we can do is support those who have been affected."

[onearmedbandit]

I work in the mining industry....[snip] ... I want people to understand that the situation at Pike is extremely dire and everything that can possibly be done is being done.

Everyone who says they can do this better, or would have gone in there straight away etc etc etc, I'd like to see you argue with T.G.W's post. Please. Go on.

[scott411]

I work in the mining industry and have spent time at Pike River as well as other various mines around NZ, I work underground and understand the dangers and risks associated with working in gassy mines, I know a couple of the guys down there and want them out as much as anyone else.

I have been involved (indirectly) with the rescue attempt by supplying and co-ordinating the delivery of the gas sampling tubes that are currently being installed to measure the mine gasses down the pilot hole being bored to the working faces.


that is a very good read, thanks, i wish your mates all the best

[Grubber]

I work in the mining industry and have spent time at Pike River as well as other various mines around NZ, I work underground and understand the dangers and risks associated with working in gassy mines, I know a couple of the guys down there and want them out as much as anyone else.

I have been involved (indirectly) with the rescue attempt by supplying and co-ordinating the delivery of the gas sampling tubes that are currently being installed to measure the mine gasses down the pilot hole being bored to the working faces.

(Snip)

This post is a bit long winded sorry, but this situation is something I am very concerned about and think about on a daily basis when I am underground.

I hope I have explained the actions of the rescuers to give the general public a better understanding of why the decisions that are being made are in everyones best interests. I want people to understand that the situation at Pike is extremely dire and everything that can possibly be done is being done.

Long winded or not, that was brilliant. Thanks for that.:Punk:
Now maybe this will silence the critics.:facepalm:

[Genestho]

Hangon, sorry this is not my words btw - just relaying the message :yes:

I think it 'brilliant' because the public and the families needed to know this from one who knows.

[EJK]

Don't feel good about this.

[HenryDorsetCase]

(Not my words) "I work in the mining industry and have spent time at Pike River
[snip]
I hope I have explained the actions of the rescuers to give the general public a better understanding of why the decisions that are being made are in everyones best interests. I want people to understand that the situation at Pike is extremely dire and everything that can possibly be done is being done."

thanks for that

[HenryDorsetCase]

What??

They'd have to step away from their beloved key-boards.......:blink::rolleyes:

I heard of a guy who spilt some of his love on his keyboard once.

[Woodman]

Thanks TGW for getting an explanation to us.

We will know the fate of the poor buggers shortly. Just found out that an old rugby mates son is down there.

Not good.

[Edbear]

I heard this idiot this morning and was pleased with Gary's response to these guys.

http://clearnet.co.nz/news-story.html?national~799861

[imdying]

Curious... how well does a modern coal miner get paid? I assume when the consequences of failure are so harsh (pressure cooked and poisoned 2km into the earth is right on up there in my book) that they're on a reasonable wicket yeah?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Curious... how well does a modern coal miner get paid? I assume when the consequences of failure are so harsh (pressure cooked and poisoned 2km into the earth is right on up there in my book) that they're on a reasonable wicket yeah?

labourer starts on $80-90k a year I heard? not sure if thats right

[piston broke]

damn,that is really sick making.
condolences to all involved

[cromagnon]

labourer starts on $80-90k a year I heard? not sure if thats right

The base salary is around 70-80 but they also get a production bonus every month depending on the amount of coal produced at their mine so can earn towards 100k.

sad news: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-explosion/4381393/Second-mine-blast-no-survivors

[kevfromcoro]

There has been another explosion....

Police say no survivors..

Do they mean the 29 that are down there ??

[Edbear]

The base salary is around 70-80 but they also get a production bonus every month depending on the amount of coal produced at their mine so can earn towards 100k.

sad news: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-explosion/4381393/Second-mine-blast-no-survivors

Watching on Prime now...

[Maha]

There has been another explosion....

Police say no survivors..

Do they mean the 29 that are down there ??

That is correct, if indeed the 29 were still alive, they would not have survived the 2nd explosion.

[Genie]

R.I.P.

Those hard working men who have lost their lives.

Goodbye Danny. You were a lovely man and it was a pleasure to have known you. My thoughts to those loved ones you have left behind.

[FlangMasterJ]

That is correct, if indeed the 29 were still alive, they would not have survived the 2nd explosion.

But it's still not confirmed right?

[piston broke]

damn those media seagulls.
why do they have to show those poor folks grieving,just after they have heard the terrible news
do they not give a shit about privacy

[Genie]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-explosion/4381393/Second-mine-blast-no-survivors

[Genie]

damn those media seagulls.
why do they have to show those poor folks grieving,just after they have heard the terrible news

those seagulls have kept those of us not able to be there informed...though one never believes all one reads.

29 men are dead, 29 familes have had a harrowing time and now...now they will need to grieve and say goodbye.

[piston broke]

those seagulls have kept those of us not able to be there informed...though one never believes all one reads.

29 men are dead, 29 familes have had a harrowing time and now...now they will need to grieve and say goodbye.

thats true,but why show those people in so much pain.
fucken discusting imho

[Genie]

thats true,but why show those people in so much pain.
fucken discusting imho

it is....I agree. We all know they are in pain and I for one do not need to see a mother's/wives'/childs' pain displayed upon my TV....channel changed. Now to go and embrace my family and enjoy the time I have with them.

[piston broke]

they are saying there may be rescuers going in now.
as the bad gasses have burnt off.
i don't pray,but i am praying that those boys were in a safe tucked away corner in there

[EJK]

thats true,but why show those people in so much pain.
fucken discusting imho

The nation gotta see a photo of grief or something, and that can't be a photo with smiley faces.
But I understand your point.

Condolences to the families and whole New Zealand.

[cromagnon]

Tv 1 is streaming live if you arent near a tv:
http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/live-stream-pike-river-one-news-special-video-3906451

[piston broke]

The nation gotta see a photo of grief or something,.
But I understand your point.

Condolences to the families and whole New Zealand.

no we don't.
to me it is gross.
i'm hurting,i don't even know any of them.i guess most kiwi's are.

[Reckless]

RIP those miners!! Sad day!!

[twinbruva]

I met one of them a while back, a biker, I even took his picture. That's put my mind a bit closer to the situation than it it might otherwise have been.

RIP Danny.

[Mom]

My heart goes out to the ones left behind. A very sad day indeed.

[kiwi cowboy]

Bugger it, it's not over till it's over. Call me silly I don't care. I will remain in hope until It's known different.

+1
10 char

[Maha]

Local radio station played a song this morning...
It was, Better Be Home Soon (Crowded House) and the names of the 29 miners being read out was over-dubbed into the song....real cool.

[Dean]

Heard the news such a sad tragic thing to happen. My heart goes out to the family, parents and partners of the miners.

[Edbear]

Heard the news such a sad tragic thing to happen. My heart goes out to the family, parents and partners of the miners.

+1 :bye:...

[avgas]

labourer starts on $80-90k a year I heard? not sure if thats right
Shift boss is around those figures.
Tunneller / Shaft hand is between 40-70K depending on experience.
Job/Face boss is around 100K in NZ.

This whole story is very sad. And way to close to home for me.
My old man was working Pike only 6 months ago.

I'm not going to comment here anymore until this "reality check" passes. Only a scare for me - but my hearts go out to what the families must be feeling.
I would give anything for a miracle.

[Urano]

:(
...........

[JimO]

they were dead on friday

[oldrider]

Until they find them and they "are" lost, I will hang onto the little bit of hope for a miracle and that they may be spared! :facepalm:

Condolences to all their families and loved ones! :weep:

[Indiana_Jones]

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7wFxoU53-qU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7wFxoU53-qU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

-Indy

[scissorhands]

Its such a sad thing for so many people, especially those in the mining community and their families

[steve74]

I knew of most of those guys, I went diving with one of them earlier this year. Greymouth is a small town, Most were guys you see about on a weekly basis or you know their families. Im not directly involved with any of the families but i still feel numb. I cant begin to imagine how the families feel. Tomorrow will be a dark day. Its going to be tough.

RIP

[RiderInBlack]

My thoughts are with those close to the Miners. Every time I have stay in Reefon, the people here have been awesome. They have an awesomely close community that they can be proud of.

[Grubber]

it is....I agree. We all know they are in pain and I for one do not need to see a mother's/wives'/childs' pain displayed upon my TV....channel changed. Now to go and embrace my family and enjoy the time I have with them.

Wouldn't want to have watched Campbell Live last night then. I changed channels after seeing his bullshit.

Condolences to the huge family of Coasters that will be suffering now.
Extremely sad day.

[Maha]

Wouldn't want to have watched Campbell Live last night then. I changed channels after seeing his bullshit.

Condolences to the huge family of Coasters that will be suffering now.
Extremely sad day.

Alot of the media stuff coming out of there is crap..Sainsbury asked the question early on ''is mining a dangerous job''? ....and yesterday Corin Dann was talking to Phil Goff in Greymouth and at the end of the interview he said ''one last thing Mr Goff, the Mana election..'' If I was Goff I would have just walked away.

[phill-k]

An outcome nobody wanted but I believe those with the knowledge and information probably surmised that the miners succumbed in the first blast or shortly there afterwards.

If a young person asked me who they should aspire to Peter Whittall would be my choice, a man who stepped up, and preformed a job he could only perform based on his own personal character and standards, I have been humbled by his demeanour and abilities.

The Police Officer also performed a role as a spokesman for the search & rescue attempt, he was not making the decisions on his own but he was the spokesman for the decisions being made, a difficult job but I feel the Police need to learn a lesson from this, the operation was not a crime scene and as such his methodology of disseminating the information was not helpful to the families and meant many became angered at his messages. His demeanour was that of an autocrat a man used to specking to subordinates and not being questioned, the police have a number of public relations and media savvy people who should have been brought in to undertake that role. I am sure that was the reason the commissioner of police and the minister visited and attempted to show their solidarity with their man, they knew his demeanour was alienating the families and the wider community. I’m sure as a Police Officer he is very effective but the two vastly different styles displayed make it obvious Public Relations is not his forte.

[Grubber]

Alot of the media stuff coming out of there is crap..Sainsbury asked the question early on ''is mining a dangerous job''? ....and yesterday Corin Dann was talking to Phil Goff in Greymouth and at the end of the interview he said ''one last thing Mr Goff, the Mana election..'' If I was Goff I would have just walked away.

So just as bad there too huh.
Maybe its time the media tried to show some positivity now and then and stop trying to create friggin headlines all the time.
It's a real bastard for sure.

[nudemetalz]

RIP to the miners :(

[scott411]

If a young person asked me who they should aspire to Peter Whittall would be my choice, a man who stepped up, and preformed a job he could only perform based on his own personal character and standards, I have been humbled by his demeanour and abilities.


agree with this 100%,, he stepped up to do a job infront of the world's media, and infront of a group of families being told the very worse, and did it with humility and courage,

[smoky]

I am the first generation of my fathers family that wasn't bought up on the West Coast - 5 generations of coasters. I did my apprenticeship in the coal mines in Huntly, and was part of the local mines rescue at the time. I have also worked in the mines briefly while living in Australia ...... and have been shocked at what has happened

We were always reminded and warned about the dangers of working underground, regularly you had events that caused you to reflect on the dangers of your environment. However we were trained, and felt prepared, but death was always a very real possibility. So I don't know why I'm so shocked - perhaps the number of fatalities in one go? Perhaps too many unanswered questions?

I am also angry at the Police - perhaps miss-placed, but suspect they prevented a rescue being undertaken hours after the first blast - preferring to wait until they knew it was safe.
While every miner I know - knows the safest time is straight after the initial blast that has burnt off the accumulation of gasses - you go then or you have missed your window of opportunity
Or am I just a little shocked and want to blame someone, and I'm not exactly up to date with latest mines rescue procedures

I look at my 7 year old boy, my 5 year old daughter - and think about how sad it would be for them if I didn't come home again
For their mother who would be left to carry on

and then think about the devastation of so many families and their lives yesterday

[martybabe]

I spent most of my working life as a 'rescuer', however valid the decision not to commit the rescue teams was, I'd like to pass on my thoughts to the guys and Girls that never got a chance to do their stuff. I can only imagine how frustrating it must have been to be on standby for such a long time only to end up , eventually, with the worst possible outcome to this disaster.

Along with the Families,friends and community, they will be devastated by the loss. An incredibly sad outcome for everyone, I really hope they can get in and remove the miners for the families sake.

Condolences to all those involved.

[phill-k]

I am the first generation of my fathers family that wasn't bought up on the West Coast - 5 generations of coasters. I did my apprenticeship in the coal mines in Huntly, and was part of the local mines rescue at the time. I have also worked in the mines briefly while living in Australia ...... and have been shocked at what has happened

We were always reminded and warned about the dangers of working underground, regularly you had events that caused you to reflect on the dangers of your environment. However we were trained, and felt prepared, but death was always a very real possibility. So I don't know why I'm so shocked - perhaps the number of fatalities in one go? Perhaps too many unanswered questions?

I am also angry at the Police - perhaps miss-placed, but suspect they prevented a rescue being undertaken hours after the first blast - preferring to wait until they knew it was safe.
While every miner I know - knows the safest time is straight after the initial blast that has burnt off the accumulation of gasses - you go then or you have missed your window of opportunity
Or am I just a little shocked and want to blame someone, and I'm not exactly up to date with latest mines rescue procedures

I look at my 7 year old boy, my 5 year old daughter - and think about how sad it would be for them if I didn't come home again
For their mother who would be left to carry on

and then think about the devastation of so many families and their lives yesterday

Not sure you can place blame on the police for not entering the mine, he very early on explained that he was taking advice from experts on what and when things should happen, I just don't think he handled the dissemination of the details in an empathetic way, to me he displayed almost an arrogance, probably necessary in a lot of his work, but not the image that the families and general public needed.

[slowpoke]

An outcome nobody wanted but I believe those with the knowledge and information probably surmised that the miners succumbed in the first blast or shortly there afterwards.

If a young person asked me who they should aspire to Peter Whittall would be my choice, a man who stepped up, and preformed a job he could only perform based on his own personal character and standards, I have been humbled by his demeanour and abilities.

The Police Officer also performed a role as a spokesman for the search & rescue attempt, he was not making the decisions on his own but he was the spokesman for the decisions being made, a difficult job but I feel the Police need to learn a lesson from this, the operation was not a crime scene and as such his methodology of disseminating the information was not helpful to the families and meant many became angered at his messages. His demeanour was that of an autocrat a man used to specking to subordinates and not being questioned, the police have a number of public relations and media savvy people who should have been brought in to undertake that role. I am sure that was the reason the commissioner of police and the minister visited and attempted to show their solidarity with their man, they knew his demeanour was alienating the families and the wider community. I’m sure as a Police Officer he is very effective but the two vastly different styles displayed make it obvious Public Relations is not his forte.

While I can understand your reaction to Police Superntendent Gary Knowles I actually thought he did a good job. Don't forget who/what he was faced with when he stood in front of the camera's: a huge media rabble. The way they carried on/harped on and generally badgered with often stupid and inane questions (what relevance has the 9/11 disaster to a coal mine FFS?) pretty much called for a straight down the barrel, authoritarian approach otherwise it would have degenerated into an absolute circus. As it was he managed to keep a lid on most of the bullshit at the media conferences unlike some of the media shenanigans off camera which make my stomach turn, fuggin hyenas.

As someone who's worked both above and below ground in the mines (not coal) and now offshore on a gas platform as a member of the Emergency Response Team I can understand their rescue philosophy. In all the MOME (Management of Major Emergency) training I've done the primary responsibility is to not make the siutation any worse. Putting more people into an extremely hazardous environment could ultimately have lead to an ever greater loss of life than the tragic loss we've just seen.

Waiting as they did was probably the hardest of all things to do, but I reckon it was the right thing. With extremely limited information on the downhole environemnt sending more people in would have just been rolling the dice with more lives at stake, and with no guarantee that the guys trapped were even alive.

My heart goes out to all involved, it's such a tragedy the way it's all played out.

[Paul in NZ]

Yes - my understanding was that the first 4 or so hours are the safest after a blast. But given the location there might not of been enough time from the first realisation of a problem (2 hours after when the survivors got out?) to assemble sufficient men and equipment to get in and get out again. The blast causes enourmous particle displacement and visibility is virtually zero and then there is a lot of debris to negotiate in the several km to get inside.

Sadly, not going was the only decision really...

[phill-k]

While I can understand your reaction to Police Superntendent Gary Knowles I actually thought he did a good job. Don't forget who/what he was faced with when he stood in front of the camera's: a huge media rabble. The way they carried on/harped on and generally badgered with often stupid and inane questions (what relevance has the 9/11 disaster to a coal mine FFS?) pretty much called for a straight down the barrel, authoritarian approach otherwise it would have degenerated into an absolute circus. As it was he managed to keep a lid on most of the bullshit at the media conferences unlike some of the media shenanigans off camera which make my stomach turn, fuggin hyenas.

As someone who's worked both above and below ground in the mines (not coal) and now offshore on a gas platform as a member of the Emergency Response Team I can understand their rescue philosophy. In all the MOME (Management of Major Emergency) training I've done the primary responsibility is to not make the siutation any worse. Putting more people into an extremely hazardous environment could ultimately have lead to an ever greater loss of life than the tragic loss we've just seen.

Waiting as they did was probably the hardest of all things to do, but I reckon it was the right thing. With extremely limited information on the downhole environemnt sending more people in would have just been rolling the dice with more lives at stake, and with no guarantee that the guys trapped were even alive.

My heart goes out to all involved, it's such a tragedy the way it's all played out.

I'm certainly not questioning the job or decisions Knowles took, but it was very obvious his manner was upsetting the families and this has come to pass today in some of the interviews, however Peter Whittall"s approach to dealing with both the families and media I believe had a much greater effect in reassuring the families all was being done that could be done. From the start Knowles made it clear that the decisions been made were not his alone he was but the messenger to the families and NZ. I do feel that in time those that are questioning the involvement of the Police will realise they are the coordinators and have the expertise in managing these situations, however as a part of that perhaps their PR people should be charged with disseminating the information not the Officer co-ordinating.

[DougieNZ]

Yes I am sure a lot of mining and rescue "experts" will come out of the woodwork now...

There are some questions to be asked - and I'm sure they will be answered. I have asked some myself. It is only natuaral to question some of the decisions made, but at the end of the day unless you were there (and a genuine "expert") it is pretty hard to make an informed judgement.

Does anyone really think thsat a PR person instead of the cop in charge would have been acceptable to the media and the public - particularly when the Mine Company CEO was fronting and doing a great job? The media would have been calling for blood... Time and multiple enquiries will judge many involved in this incident. Now is the time for grieving.

One thing I do think is that the media were vultures filming and photographing grieving and shocked families yesterday. Are there no standards of decency anymore?

Lets give them some space and support them.

RIP the 29

[marty]

A lot of us who have coal mine/caving/alpine SAR experience just haven't bought into the on-line vitriol and gung-ho attitude that would have resulted in death for any rescuers as well as the original 29.

We have been supporting in our own way.

[smoky]

Should they have gone in - could they have gone in?
Sometimes it’s a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't

I hope there is an inquiry and wonder if the Police are the best people to be calling the shots in a mine rescue?
Our Police are far less inclined to put themselves, or take responsibility for anyone putting themselves in harm’s way, to rescue injured civilians

They have yellow track record when people lie injured and their lives are in the balance;
I remember a few years back a man who had been shot and collapsed on the door step of the nearest house, the Police kept the person in the house on the phone rather than let her attend to his injures..... he died
What about the police who stood helplessly by while a woman was stabbed to death, because they were unarmed!
Navtej Singh, Police delayed medical attention, preferring to wait nearly 40 minutes after the event fearing someone may still be in the shop armed, while he died – a subsequent report found the offenders had run off!
The Aramoana massacre; Police insisting on containing the gunman for 24 hours, not allowing an armored vehicle with medics in to help the wounded.

Mind you given the modern world of blame and arse covering, would anyone else not of been paralised by bureaucracy and fear of getting it wrong?

Are modern hero's those who make the right decision rather than the brave!

[Dadpole]

If you want to see armchair experts at their finest, I suggest you have a look on the Trademe forum.

I really despair for the future of the country if that lot are allowed to vote and breed.:angry2: It is so tempting to visit them with an axe.

[marty]

Might be an ideal opportunity for some of those who know best to take up a new career in Police, work their way to the top through multiple incidents and operations, and become the next O/C West Coast

[phill-k]

A lot of us who have coal mine/caving/alpine SAR experience just haven't bought into the on-line vitriol and gung-ho attitude that would have resulted in death for any rescuers as well as the original 29.

We have been supporting in our own way.

I don't believe I have entered into some gunho vitriol, rather just expressed an opinion based on what I was seeing and hearing, the Area Commander was doing his job and by all accounts a good one, however the way he was dealing with the human side - families was and has been confirmed by various interviews on National Radio upsetting them, I was only suggesting that perhaps a person skilled in the art of communication might have done a more empathic job.

However as you mention your expertise in SAR it has also been confirmed that as the blast occurred the rescuers were in fact "kitting up" to enter the mine, they had made the decision that it was time to go in but thankfully she let go just before hand. This is information based on an interview with the brother of one of the lost miners who was staying in the same accommodation as some of the professional rescuers and they informed him of this situation and were rather effected by the possible consequences if the decision had been taken earlier.

[marty]

The gung-ho/vitriol comment wasn't directed at you, and as I have been in the position of having to deliver very bad news on a few occasions, there really is no perfect way of doing it. In hindsight even the most perfect delivery of compassion and information could have been done differently.

It has been interesting to see how people have reacted to some of the images and video - they obviously (unsuprisingly) have no idea that a mine is actually quite a 'special' place and carries quite specific risks and rules - just like alpine and tiger country bush does, and I hope it's given them a dose of stfu.

I remember seeing a post on here (can't find it now) about 'why don't we let the DF go in and get it sorted - they know what they're doing'. Yeah right. Their robot got wet. Then - possibly - contributed to an explosion.

[twinbruva]

Back in the days before 'technology' the scenario would probably have been "Damn, an explosion in the mine, take some volunteers and that canary and good luck in there finding the lads."

These days it's "We have to weigh up the risks, get some robots, weigh up the risks again, get some gas measuring devices, weigh up the risks again, drill some holes, weigh up the risks again..." Bang. "Oh shit. Told you it was dangerous."

While some risk management is important there were some who were keen to exercise some heroism but they weren't allowed. In fact they were threatened with arrest.

What would happen if the Jolly Red Giant came knocking on our shores? I dare say the heroes would be pushed to the front (pun intended) on that day.

[scumdog]

They have yellow track record when people lie injured and their lives are in the balance;


No... Police have never put themselves in danger and never rescued anybody...:rolleyes:








Nice fuckin' troll dude, - but you'll have to do better methinks...

[scumdog]

If you want to see armchair experts at their finest, I suggest you have a look on the Trademe forum.

I really despair for the future of the country if that lot are allowed to vote and breed.:angry2: It is so tempting to visit them with an axe.


Yep, it scares me to think I'm sharing this country with so many dumb-arse unintelligen non-thinking knee-jerk slack-jawed mouthbreathing bozos - and some of them ride motorbikes and share the roads I use too:facepalm:

[scumdog]

Might be an ideal opportunity for some of those who know best to take up a new career in Police, work their way to the top through multiple incidents and operations, and become the next O/C West Coast

THAT would never work with KB - they would have to step back from their key-boards for a start....:blink:



Ah... boy, does it feel good to let fly at times..

[phill-k]

shit I hope you're not getting at me:innocent:

[cave weta]

Yep, it scares me to think I'm sharing this country with so many dumb-arse unintelligen non-thinking knee-jerk slack-jawed mouthbreathing bozos - and some of them ride motorbikes and share the roads I use too:facepalm:

Shouldve sent in Chuck Norris on day one..........

[Crisis management]

Back in the days before 'technology' the scenario would probably have been "Damn, an explosion in the mine, take some volunteers and that canary and good luck in there finding the lads."

These days it's "We have to weigh up the risks, get some robots, weigh up the risks again, get some gas measuring devices, weigh up the risks again, drill some holes, weigh up the risks again..." Bang. "Oh shit. Told you it was dangerous."

While some risk management is important there were some who were keen to exercise some heroism but they weren't allowed. In fact they were threatened with arrest.

What would happen if the Jolly Red Giant came knocking on our shores? I dare say the heroes would be pushed to the front (pun intended) on that day.

The bit I don't understand about this arguement (and it's not just you banging on about this theme) is the agreed facts about the "window of opportunity" following a mine explosion...there's about 3 or 4 hours when you may be able to get into the mine before the gas levels rise to a dangerous level.
So, if you've got this opportunity but the guys that raise the alarm (the two that got out) take 2 hours to do so and it takes up to 2 hours to walk into the mine.....how do you rescue anyone in the 30 seconds you have left of your "window of opportunity"?

Maybe maths isn't my strong point, but I can't seem to make the numbers add up.

[cave weta]

If you want to see armchair experts at their finest, I suggest you have a look on the Trademe forum.

I really despair for the future of the country if that lot are allowed to vote and breed.:angry2: It is so tempting to visit them with an axe.

There was a guy in a discussion page on the Pike River FaceBook who said that he would go in on a mountain bike with a respirator and check it all out for them....

[Edbear]

I always consider who is speaking when deciding whether they have anything worth listening to.

Notable is that the multitude of people who are experts, qualified and experienced - who were there doing the job or contributing their knowledge and expertise from abroad - were not criticising the rescue efforts or the spokesmen. They were not saying, "Go in, go in!" They had access to all the data and were analysing it constantly looking for an opportunity to get in there.

The criticisms and ire, came from people who have no qualifications, no experience, were not there doing the job and wouldn't know where to start if they were...

Funny that.... :innocent:

[Maha]

If Peter Whittall said it wasn't a happening thing, then it wasn't a happening thing.

[marty]

If Peter Whittall said wasn't a happening thing, then it wasn't a happening thing.


and THAT should be THAT.

thread closed.

[phill-k]

I always consider who is speaking when deciding whether they have anything worth listening to.

Notable is that the multitude of people who are experts, qualified and experienced - who were there doing the job or contributing their knowledge and expertise from abroad - were not criticising the rescue efforts or the spokesmen. They were not saying, "Go in, go in!" They had access to all the data and were analysing it constantly looking for an opportunity to get in there.

The criticisms and ire, came from people who have no qualifications, no experience, were not there doing the job and wouldn't know where to start if they were...

Funny that.... :innocent:

I as a layperson watched this unfold and listened to the explanations given as to the reasons behind not going in, for me much greater understanding came from the post earlier by T.E.W. about page 7, to the gas mixes that become volatile, however as I mentioned in an earlier post in time frame around the second explosion, according to a "first person" interview on National Radio, the rescuers were actually kitting up and were going to enter the mine, thankfully the explosion occurred when it did. How did they come to the decision at that time to attempt to go in?

[Edbear]

I as a layperson watched this unfold and listened to the explanations given as to the reasons behind not going in, for me much greater understanding came from the post earlier by T.E.W. about page 7, to the gas mixes that become volatile, however as I mentioned in an earlier post in time frame around the second explosion, according to a "first person" interview on National Radio, the rescuers were actually kitting up and were going to enter the mine, thankfully the explosion occurred when it did. How did they come to the decision at that time to attempt to go in?

That does contradict what Peter Whittall said today. Interestingly the Mines Rescue Manager just now on CloseUp said that from the time of the first explosion due to it rupturing a gas line there was 800lt per second of Methane gas being released into the mine. There was no "window of opportunity" at any time.

[Hans]

To my surprise I find myself grieving for men I did not know. When the news came through yesterday, I was sitting in the cab of my truck, stuck in traffic. I could see tears streaming down the faces of people in the cars around me. I am not one for crying, yet I cried too.
These were ''ordinary'' men, working hard in difficult and dangerous circumstances in order to provide for those they loved.
Today New Zealand is grieving for them like I have never seen before. I belive this is in some part due to the principles they are seen to represent. This is in no way a bad thing.
Thanks to these men, my faith in my fellow man is stronger than it was before.
My condelences to the families.

[Edbear]

If Peter Whittall said wasn't a happening thing, then it wasn't a happening thing.


and THAT should be THAT.

thread closed.

Agree with both of you, but doubt everyone will leave off the thread for a bit.

[twinbruva]

The bit I don't understand about this arguement (and it's not just you banging on about this theme) is the agreed facts about the "window of opportunity" following a mine explosion...there's about 3 or 4 hours when you may be able to get into the mine before the gas levels rise to a dangerous level.
So, if you've got this opportunity but the guys that raise the alarm (the two that got out) take 2 hours to do so and it takes up to 2 hours to walk into the mine.....how do you rescue anyone in the 30 seconds you have left of your "window of opportunity"?

Maybe maths isn't my strong point, but I can't seem to make the numbers add up.

I wasn't "banging on", I was just voicing an opinion. Also, with the benefit of hindsight (something we all now have) there was a window of days; so letting in those who wished to go in would not have been an issue (in that respect alone). If the 3-4 hrs was all they had and it then went pear-shaped then that's on their head, so to speak.

After that 3-4hrs it was deemed to be increasingly dodgey (by the hour) but as we now know it took days for another explosion. It's an absolute bugger all round but I still have this niggling feeling that those at the top were being overly cautious when some were willing to tread what could have been a deadly trail.

Those that put their hands up at that time deserve some respect.

[twinbruva]

That does contradict what Peter Whittall said today. Interestingly the Mines Rescue Manager just now on CloseUp said that from the time of the first explosion due to it rupturing a gas line there was 800lt per second of Methane gas being released into the mine. There was no "window of opportunity" at any time.

That changes my thoughts on things somewhat.

[marty]

It's amazing how knowing all the facts before opening your mouth can stop you looking like a Trademe messageboarder

[Genestho]

That does contradict what Peter Whittall said today. Interestingly the Mines Rescue Manager just now on CloseUp said that from the time of the first explosion due to it rupturing a gas line there was 800lt per second of Methane gas being released into the mine. There was no "window of opportunity" at any time.


That changes my thoughts on things somewhat.

Straight to the point regarding the 'immediate window' at 1.05 http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/man-leading-rescue-teams-3916318/video

There's no words to encompass it all.

Sad day, thoughts are with the families, may they find strength together and rely on the support offered in the weeks and months ahead.

[twinbruva]

It's amazing how knowing all the facts before opening your mouth can stop you looking like a Trademe messageboarder

I would suggest nobody here knows ALL the facts. Or anyone anywhere for that matter.

[Woodman]

Got a txt from a mate in Grey today.

I asked him how things are down there.

"Not good m8. We all in shock. dunno wot to say or do.
We gettin sick of media askin stupid questions. They should fuck off now."

[twinbruva]

Sad day.

On that we are united.

[marty]

I would suggest nobody here knows ALL the facts. Or anyone anywhere for that matter.

yet people keep saying dumb shit

[JimO]

yet people keep saying dumb shit

its the kb way

[Indoo]

but I still have this niggling feeling that those at the top were being overly cautious when some were willing to tread what could have been a deadly trail.

Which of the mine rescue guys said they believed it was possible to go in but were prevented by those in charge. They had colleagues and 'brothers' in the mine, do you not think if there was even the tiniest opportunity they would have taken it?

[smoky]

Interestingly the Mines Rescue Manager just now on CloseUp said that from the time of the first explosion due to it rupturing a gas line there was 800lt per second of Methane gas being released into the mine. There was no "window of opportunity" at any time.

Just shows how wrong people can get things - the methane doesn't come from a gas line, it comes from the coal, the ground - it was an air line used to power pneumatic tools that was ruptured


yet people keep saying dumb shit
people are allowed to aren't they? I guess there are a lot of questions, some like my self will always think too little was done too late and the powers to be were too cautious
Others will believe what the experts tell them, that they did all they could
and we have our reasons to think either way
It's human nature to express our opinion - and thinking or expression either way does not detract from the severity and sadness of the tragedy

I don't trust everything that has been said from Police, mine officials or politicians, I don't trust the media's representation of everything either

But we all agree it was shocking, it is sad

[Woodman]

Just shows how wrong people can get things - the methane doesn't come from a gas line, it comes from the coal, the ground - it was an air line used to power pneumatic tools that was ruptured

Edbear is right as to what was said cos thats how I heard it too. Didn't understand it, but definitely heard it.

[smoky]

Edbear is right as to what was said cos thats how I heard it too. Didn't understand it, but definitely heard it.

Wasn't saying he heard it wrong.

[Hopeful Bastard]

Sorry, But I am not going to read through 13 pages of posts..

But how do we know that they are dead?

Yes, There have been 2 blasts. Yes, There is poisonous gas in there.. But how do we know that they haven't gotten themselves into a Miraculous Air Pocket created by The first explosion?

I mean, They called be all sealed off from everything.. How do we know FOR SURE that they are dead?

[Maha]

The mining experts are going on what they do know rather than what they dont know.
They do that the first expolsion was pretty intense.
They do know that the mine then rapidly filled with dangerous gases over the follow days.
They do know where the miner were working in relation to the explosion.
They do know that the second explosion was not survivable.
They also know that there is no straw to clutch onto in the mine.

[Virago]

...How do we know FOR SURE that they are dead?

We don't.

The suddenness of the "All Hope Lost" announcement is a surprise to many, but it is a very important step in allowing the safe recovery operation to proceed.

The current situation of dangerous gases and sporadic explosions would likely continue indefinitely, with no chance of entry to the mine. Once the "All Hope Lost" decision is made, drastic measures can be taken to make the situation safer - but these measures would likely kill any survivors in there.

This is the ultimate Catch 22 situation. But the hard decisions have to be made, and I have huge repect for those who have to make them.

[Genestho]

This was the comment that I deleted the other day in a post, relayed by one of one of the workers...when I re-read that line, it had huge implications, too horrific to contemplate for anyone at that time.

I don't know the latest, but yesterday they were interviewing a bloke who's bringing over a jet powered machine that disperses inert gases to stabilise the mine for entry - from Aus, as well as a Manager, two supervisors and their team 16 in all said the boss.

This is going to be a very very tough decision for all involved.

They are going to have to be 100% sure hope really is gone and everyone is onboard with them.

It will feel like losing them all over again, and then when they bring the bodies out, same again.

The families have had so much to endure and still more to go, and then the inquiries which I hope for their sakes don't drag on, although they're owed thorough answers.
Just so heartbreaking.

[Katman]

Just shows how wrong people can get things - the methane doesn't come from a gas line, it comes from the coal, the ground - it was an air line used to power pneumatic tools that was ruptured




Yep, something doesn't quite add up here.

This whole "build up of methane gas" theory is completely the opposite to the post earlier that said methane concentration has to fall to 15% before it becomes volatile.

[RiderInBlack]

I don't envy any rescue teams dealing will life threating events, with Rubber-neckers and Media poking they judgmental nose in, while they are doing the very best they can with the knowledge and expertise they have.
As a Nurse I a have a duty to stop at accidents to assist if needed (and have done so). I strictly obey the golden rule, to handover to more experienced rescue works as they arrive to the scene and back off immediately to give them space to do what they do unhampered. It's they call now. I do not second judge them on what they choose to do. They make their best call base on the information they have at the time. End of case.
So KBérs, I strongly suggest ya back off on the judgments on the choices the were made by all those involved down there. They are going to have to live for the rest of their lives with the what if's rolling in their minds for the rest of their lives. Just hope ya never get put in a position where it's your turn to make the hard calls with Media & Rubber-necks on ya back judging ya every move.
Let them, and all those close to the Miners, have space to grieve. Give them space and give them support.

[Banditbandit]

History has a lot to tell us ...

In March 1896 the Brunner Mine, off the Grey River, exploded - killing 65 workers ... it was a massive methane explosion ... and still the largest mining or industry accident causing death in New Zealand's history ...

Some miners underground died from the explosion others from the poisonous gases after the explosion ... Experts estimated that anyone surviving the explosion died within three minutes, from the gases

The first miners to arrive on the scene ran into the mine, then had to be rescued themselves as they passed out from the gases ... (So much for "the best time to go into the mine is straight away" ...)

Rescue teams moved into the mine, but could only spend half an hour in the mine before being overcome by gases ... it took some time to get in, but the first bodies were eventually discovered a quarter of a mile into the mine (440 yards ...)

The Brunner Mine was never reopened because it was considered too dangerous - the coal was described at the time as "a fiery gas seam ...."

In 2008 Pike River started a shaft aimed straight at the Brunner Seam ... and in June 2009 reached the seam - described more than 100 years ago as "a fiery gas seam" .. and in November 2010, 17 months later, there was a massive methane explosion ...

The Brunner Seam has now cost at least 94 lives ... and in 100 years, when people have forgotten .. someone else will try to mine it .. And I'll lay good money what will happen again ...

Yes, experts can argue "better technology" than 1896 - but there have now been two more explosions in "a fiery gas seam" ... and a manager talking about a gas line carrying 800 litres per second of methane ... that's a lot of methane ...

NZ is going to be arguing this one for some time ... but maybe the lessons of the past are still relevent ..

[RiderInBlack]

The Brunner Seam has now cost at least 94 lives ... and in 100 years, when people have forgotten .. someone else will try to mine it .. And I'll lay good money what will happen again ...

NZ is going to be arguing this one for some time ... but maybe the lessons of the past are still relevent ..Personally (having worked with coal as a fuel) I don't think Coal is worth the risk. It is a "Filthy Fuel" that gives off too many dangerous gas when being used. The World should stop using it and work on cleaner fuels and power sources (that's my option).

In saying that, I still feel for their lost. It was their choice to take the risk, but the does not lessen the pain of their lost.

[Maha]

Personally (having worked with coal as a fuel) I don't think Coal is worth the risk. It is a "Filthy Fuel" that gives off too many dangerous gas when being used. The World should stop using it and work on cleaner fuels and power sources (that's my option).

In saying that, I still feel for their lost. It was their choice to take the risk, but the does not lessen the pain of their lost.

I asked that question the other night Doug. What the hell do they do with the coal? Some bloke on TV that has been mining all his working life said ...everything we use in our lives in either grown or mined. Now I know the PC I am currently typing did not grow in the garden or on a tree so it must be made from mined stuff?
Probably not coal. although, looking at it.....:facepalm:

[Katman]

Can anyone explain this 'high pressured methane gas line' (supposedly pumping 800 litres of gas per second) to me?

From what I've read, methane gas is released from coal during the mining process but I wouldn't have thought it would be in a quantity or a manner that required a high pressure line to extract it.

[Winston001]

I asked that question the other night Doug. What the hell do they do with the coal? Some bloke on TV that has been mining all his working life said ...everything we use in our lives in either grown or mined. Now I know the PC I am currently typing did not grow in the garden or on a tree so it must be made from mined stuff?
Probably not coal. although, looking at it.....:facepalm:

Yes. Oil. Plastics, fertilisers, pharmaceuticals, a vast range of what we consider normal consumer products are made from oil.

Coal is one of the biggest energy (electricity) generating products in the world. Furthermore it is possible to produce gas and liquid fuels from coal as well as other organic hydrocarbon compounds. Very useful stuff, just not as concentrated and easy as oil.

[kevfromcoro]

Can anyone explain this 'high pressured methane gas line' (supposedly pumping 800 litres of gas per second) to me?

From what I've read, methane gas is released from coal during the mining process but I wouldn't have thought it would be in a quantity or a manner that required a high pressure line to extract it.

Yeah ,, somthing is not right here...

Why would they be pumping methane down into a coal mine..

Cant see them pumping it out..
Wouldnt be enough of it.
One would think..............

[Banditbandit]

I thought he meant that a pipeline that was pumping methane OUT of the mine had burst - and was therefore releasing the methane back out of the pipeline somewhere in the mine ...

[cromagnon]

Edit: Missed something, totally different thing.

[Katman]

I thought he meant that a pipeline that was pumping methane OUT of the mine had burst - and was therefore releasing the methane back out of the pipeline somewhere in the mine ...

I would have thought the methane would be vented through ventilation shafts or extracted using a normal extraction fan and ducting type system. I wouldn't have thought it would use a system capable of pumping 800 litres per second back into the mine.

[Banditbandit]

I would have thought the methane would be vented through ventilation shafts or extracted using a normal extraction fan and ducting type system. I wouldn't have thought it would use a system capable of pumping 800 litres per second back into the mine.

And I would have thought that if the electricity went out, whatever method they used would stop - no power no extractor fans ... probably just as bad ...

[avgas]

Ok, I had a chat to Dad. He's down at the Burt having a break.
His team is all still alive thankfully, likewise the other connel team is ok.
Quick look in here - and its KB as usual. Half arsed guess work at its best.
I don't think I will say too much here - as no doubt it will entail an argument - something I don't want to do on this argument.

But I will say this.
If everyone was on time, on schedule that day. Dead total would be 49. So there is a bit of a silver lining.

Coal dust is pretty much self combustible.
As for the methane thing - methane does go inert over 15% down there. Sadly this would definitely kill all involved..... But ideally you seal off, wait for the methane level to build up - oxy is burnt up.....fire dies.
Also if there is a fire in the coal seam it may not go out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania)

Ah you have got me waffling on again, making comments that will no doubt start arguments. And I have not even got to the fact the engineering drawings had separate entrance and exit tunnels.

Perhaps I should stay away from this thread. I am off to have a beer :drinkup:

[Katman]

Coal dust is pretty much self combustible.
As for the methane thing - methane does go inert over 15% down there. Sadly this would definitely kill all involved..... But ideally you seal off, wait for the methane level to build up - oxy is burnt up.....fire dies.
Also if there is a fire in the coal seam it may not go out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania)


So the "massive build up of methane" wouldn't have caused the explosion?

[marty]

interesting comparisons to be drawn (insofar as explosion/methane behaviour - not safety standards)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Zasyadko_mine_disaster

[neels]

And another explosion.

http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=122945&fm=psp,tst

Hope the poor buggers went quickly with the first one, and hopefully it settles down enough to get them out for their families.

[Jantar]

History has a lot to tell us ...

In March 1896 the Brunner Mine, ......

The first miners to arrive on the scene ran into the mine, then had to be rescued themselves as they passed out from the gases ... (So much for "the best time to go into the mine is straight away" ...) .... ..

A lot has changed since 1896. Immediately following a methane explosion is still the safest time to enter the mine, with breathing apparatus. Without it the rescuers will be overcome by the hot poisoness gasses, mainly carbon monoxide. Following the explosion the methane has burnt up and it takes time to re-establish to an eplosive mixture, just like it takes time for your bike engine to expunge the exhaust gasses and refill with a fuel/air mix.

The men in the mine can only survive if they can get to a safe shelter within a few minutes of the initial explosion. There are such shelters in the Pike River mine, but there has been no communication from any of them, so it's a safe bet that no miners got there. Unfortunately, along with the methane, the oxygen has burnt up as well, and that is why the survivors (if any) have a very short time frame to get to one of the shelters with an air supply and phone.

A caveat, I have no coal mining experience at all. I do have underground experience at the Rangipo power station which is treated as a mine situation. I also had the task of writing the report on evacuation, fire fighting and rescue procedures for that station imediately following commisioning in 1986.

[Swoop]

Coal dust is pretty much self combustible.
Any fine dust is combustible. Look at flour mills for example.
Suspended in the air it is able to flash over and instantly burn, i.e. explosion.

[kevfromcoro]

Years ago i was working in a place were they make particle flooring..
the air was thick with dust....
Had an explosion one day.. blew the arse end of the factrory wall out..
Lucky there was no body injured......

From there i went to rangipo mine site.......
Spooky under ground...

[doc]

the oxygen has burnt up as well, and that is why the survivors (if any) have a very short time frame to get to one of the shelters with an air supply and phone.

I use to manage a Kiwifruit coolstore and CA store.
I know that in a controlled atmosphere store it is not possible to open the sealed door and climb to the top of 4 storage bins and grab a kiwifruit for firmness testing without taking a severe risk with your health. Less than 30 secs without oxygen and your in trouble.
Even doing it with BA gear you felt crook for the rest of the day.

[FJRider]

I would have thought the methane would be vented through ventilation shafts or extracted using a normal extraction fan and ducting type system. I wouldn't have thought it would use a system capable of pumping 800 litres per second back into the mine.

You mean ventilation SHAFT (singular) :yes: ...

As the mine was on DOC controlled land (or at least under it ... only one ventilation shaft was allowed to be sunk ... :blink:

[twinbruva]

You mean ventilation SHAFT (singular) :yes: ...

Asthe mine was on DOC controlled land (or at least under it ... only one ventilation shaft was allowed to be sunk ... :blink:

DOC?
The Dept of......Overly Cautious?

[RiderInBlack]

Also if there is a fire in the coal seam it may not go out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania)
The Kamo Coal Mine fire up in Whangarei was going for years after it started, causing that mine to close. Coal makes every hot fires with a bit of air flowing thought it. Will melt steel easily at 1000deg C+. By the way Carbon can be ignited by Purer O2 or highly compressed air,

[JimO]

You mean ventilation SHAFT (singular) :yes: ...

As the mine was on DOC controlled land (or at least under it ... only one ventilation shaft was allowed to be sunk ... :blink:

probably some snail or treemoss needed saving

[FJRider]

probably some snail or treemoss needed saving

No ... as I understand it, just more of the "unspoilt" native forest would be damaged if more shafts were put in. It was one of the conditions they were given, to get the go-ahead to mine there ... and was agreed to ...

[JimO]

No ... as I understand it, just more of the "unspoilt" native forest would be damaged if more shafts were put in. It was one of the conditions they were given, to get the go-ahead to mine there ... and was agreed to ...

how much "unspoiled" native forrest do we need

[Woodman]

how much "unspoiled" native forrest do we need

More than we have now.

Another question to ask is how much crap do we need that uses coal to manufacture?

[marty]

not everyone can sustain themselves by making jams and dream catchers and living in a housebus. they require or want real income for their family

[Scouse]

*Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of mining procedures, risks or stratedgies*

But if it were my mates and son in that mine, I'd be baying for blood. As I'm sure the poor folk involved are now. It's four day, FOUR DAYS on, and nothing appears to have happened other than some drilling and a shitload of new conferences. I simply can not believe, that there's no breathing aides that a team could have been dispatched immediately. There is no shortage of volunteers. Campbell showed an interesting comparison between a similar scenario in the states, 4 hours before the rescue team went in. They had to retreat many times, but the effort was made.

In todays day and age, I can not believe that there is no way for a team with proper breathing and backup equipment to be armed with gas analysers and begin an expedition.

These are peoples SONS, FATHERS, GRANDFATHERS and BROTHERS for fucks sake. Let those who would take the risk, take it.


Too much erring on the side of caution? I believe so.


Sorry bro, I don't think we're on the same page here. There are steps that can be taken to ensure risk of a second explosion is minimized. What do you think is done when they have a leak or major rupture on a drilling rig and need to evacuate? Tell everyone to hide under theirbed and not move in case they cause an explosion?

There are instruments to detect gas levels and from what I can tell, there's no reason not to moblize people as far as they can safely travel. At the moment, they don't know whether the gas levels are high, low or non existant. Why aren't teams moving as far as they can safely?And dont you just look like a keyboard warrior right about now jimmy

[FJRider]

It seems that well paid occupations are either shit jobs ... or come with some (read a high) degree of risk of injury/death ... and many are quite willing to accept that risk. :yes:

I myself had similar occupations of this type ... I took the risk ... :woohoo:

I got lucky ... I survived ... :whocares:

The money rolls in ... and all is sweet ... :sunny:

A nice lifestyle with all the trimmings ... :drinkup:

Untill the shit hits the fan ... :shit:

and then .... :blink:

The ... it will never happen to me ... happens ... :facepalm:

Their employers are accused of "exploiting their workers" ... by not keeping them safe ... abuse of their rights ... :angry:

Few things in life are totally safe ... shit, people even die in bed ... :innocent:

Why do people forget that nobody lives forever ... :crybaby:

The old saying ... "Where there's muck there's brass" is still applicable in this day and age ... :blank:

[scissorhands]

With the political ramifications of National, mining, greenies and DOC, wait for the media circus, lies and PR spin to emerge:yes: oh wait.....the whole country is talking about this, and special behavioural scientists will be assigned to deal with the 'truth'.

Watch for yap dogs talking sides protecting their masters:shutup:

Is the coal now on fire?

[Katman]

And dont you just look like a keyboard warrior right about now jimmy

I know WT may be slow on two wheels but I think even he could have been in and out within 6 days.

[Banditbandit]

Is the coal now on fire?

Who knows .. good chance

Fire broke out in the Ironbridge Mine on the Denniston Plateau sometime before 1950 (not sure of the date) and is still burning today ....

[scissorhands]

I suppose if there was a chance of foul play ie: greenie activist tampering with the mine before morning shift... we will never hear about it.

Imagine the division within NZ that would cause.

Remember when the greenstone thief's helicopter fell out of the sky into Lake Wanaka shortly afterwards? Odd I thought.

[avgas]

So the "massive build up of methane" wouldn't have caused the explosion?
Nah more the case that the mine was not capped.....then they fed oxygen down the hole - in case someone was still alive.

This is why methane tanks don't suddenly explode in sunlight.

[Banditbandit]

Remember when the greenstone thief's helicopter fell out of the sky into Lake Wanaka shortly afterwards? Odd I thought.

Yeah ... they pissed off the wrong gods that day ..

[Maha]

I suppose if there was a chance of foul play ie: greenie activist tampering with the mine before morning shift... we will never hear about it.

Imagine the division within NZ that would cause.

Remember when the greenstone thief's helicopter fell out of the sky into Lake Wanaka shortly afterwards? Odd I thought.

....and they would have used that invisble body paint to get past the cctv at the entrance of the mine?...sneaky fullas those greenies.

[98tls]

Heard they want to play a part in the inquiry into this mess,would have thought they had done enough already eh,fucking idiots.

[Maha]

Heard they want to play a part in the inquiry into this mess,would have thought they had done enough already eh,fucking idiots.

They could probably help by cleaning it up?

[RiderInBlack]

Is the coal now on fire?Looks like it. They will be lucky to find ash if it is. Very Sad.

[98tls]

They could probably help by cleaning it up?

Actually not a bad idea,send them in there they can start now.

[RiderInBlack]

One thing for sure, this misfortune is not the fault of the Greens. They didn't force the mining company to mine. If you want to blam anyone, blame ourselves. For without Consumers, there would be no need for mining.

[98tls]

One thing for sure, this misfortune is not the fault of the Greens. They didn't force the mining company to mine. If you want to blam anyone, blame ourselves. For without Consumers, there would be no need for mining.

Not blaming them as such but there intervention sure didnt help,that mines on the same seam as Brunner and Strongman,all things considered when will they wake up to the fact that open cast is the only safe way to go not to mention the cost.

[RiderInBlack]

Not blaming them as such but there intervention sure didnt help,that mines on the same seam as Brunner and Strongman,all things considered when will they wake up to the fact that open cast is the only safe way to go not to mention the cost.Sorry, but call me a Greenie. The true value is in the life above that mine. Open Cast mining would seriously damage that, and we don't need the Coal that badly.

[98tls]

Sorry, but call me a Greenie. The true value is in the life above that mine. Open Cast mining would seriously damage that, and we don't need the Coal that badly.

Your opinion and your entilted to it,coming from the Coast originally and with plenty of miners in the family my opinion differs.We are an island in the middle of nowhere which to survive needs to export not to mention the employment issue.This country has far more to worry about than the effects of coal mining on the Westcoast,would give the Greenies some respect if they had a go at tackling the real issues fucking this country up,if there so worried about what happens to the land why dont they jump up and down everytime the Maori get given yet another slice of it.

[Winston001]

Looks like the Aussies are going to try a big new open-cast coal mine near Westport. Brave lads IMHO thinking they will get resource consent. Time will tell.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/australian-coal-miner-expand-buller-133297

[98tls]

Looks like the Aussies are going to try a big new open-cast coal mine near Westport. Brave lads IMHO thinking they will get resource consent. Time will tell.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/australian-coal-miner-expand-buller-133297

Good luck to them,hope they get it.

[Hans]

Good luck to them,hope they get it.

+1. If nothing else, it should give Greenpiss a heart attack.

[Reckless]

+1. If nothing else, it should give Greenpiss a heart attack.

They will probably spend 10 mil on trying to achieve resource consent and them give up never to return to NZ!

[RiderInBlack]

Looks like the Aussies are going to try a big new open-cast coal mine near Westport. Brave lads IMHO thinking they will get resource consent. Time will tell.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/australian-coal-miner-expand-buller-133297
Great more Aussies trying ta tell us what ta do. Who will make the money out of it? They will. They can take that Idea and shove it with their Aussie Actors Union. If we going ta mine, we should run it ourselves, so the profit at least stays in the Country.
Midnight Oil Song comes to mind "Blue Sky Mine" - And the company takes what the company wants
And nothing's as precious, as a hole in the ground.

[oldrider]

Not enough has been made of the "Greenies" part in this disaster, IMHO! :yes:

We have wealth in the ground and and unemployment on top and these idiotic pretzels always place themselves between that!

Never get into the space between a cow and her newborn calf it's extremely dangerous!

Well that's what the Greenies do all the time, stand between parents and their ability to feed their kids!

Compost the greenies and lets get on with real world life, fuck this PC shit! :brick:

It was a nice try, tunnelling under the greenie's objection but at what cost and now it may have to be abandoned all together! :facepalm:

Meanwhile, the wealth still remains under the ground and may even have to be left to burn its self out, how smart is that! Wasted wealth! Wasted lives! :sick:

Greenies huh, waste of bloody space! :yes:

[Maha]

There is no doubt in my mind that they will appear happy/hungry and in need of a cold beer.


How wrong I was.

[Banditbandit]

Your opinion and your entilted to it,coming from the Coast originally and with plenty of miners in the family my opinion differs.We are an island in the middle of nowhere which to survive needs to export not to mention the employment issue.This country has far more to worry about than the effects of coal mining on the Westcoast,would give the Greenies some respect if they had a go at tackling the real issues fucking this country up,if there so worried about what happens to the land why dont they jump up and down everytime the Maori get given yet another slice of it.

Hmmm .. we probably have very different ideas of what we need to worry about ....

And give us another slice of it ? Hei aha tō whakaaro ? It was ours before y'all took it off us ...

[scumdog]

And give us another slice of it ? Hei aha tō whakaaro ? It was ours before y'all took it off us ...

And 'you' took it from????

[oldrider]

Hmmm .. we probably have very different ideas of what we need to worry about ....

And give us another slice of it ? Hei aha tō whakaaro ? It was ours before y'all took it off us ...

How do you get your leathers on, over that great big chip on your shoulder? :doh:

[Banditbandit]

And 'you' took it from????


We didn't "take it" from anyone .. You have a view of our history which was perpetrated by the immigrants, who did so to give them (and you) an excuse to take the country ...



How do you get your leathers on, over that great big chip on your shoulder? :doh:

Don't you think that the memory might actually be justified ?

[scissorhands]

Blaming the greenies for a mining fuckup seems a little odd, though I understand your reasoning. Greenies preventing a mother feeding her young?

Cmon, the west is fat and consuming more than enough like a junk food addicted school boy. Stepping between them is ethically correct.

Continued growth as in the economy = problems.

'Like a drunken sailor spending accumulated wages' is how we treat the earth

If we just put on a hat and jumper in winter, went wind and solar elctricity, we wouldnt need more coal mines. Dont they spill lake water that could generate power?

Greenies are not the enemy here. Even though I agree that open cast in the way to go

The enemy wears a suit and rhymes with wank.

[marty]

We didn't "take it" from anyone .. You have a view of our history which was perpetrated by the immigrants, who did so to give them (and you) an excuse to take the country ...




Don't you think that the memory might actually be justified ?

So let's hear YOUR view of 'our' history. Enlighten us.

[Reckless]

Hmmm .. we probably have very different ideas of what we need to worry about ....

And give us another slice of it ? Hei aha tō whakaaro ? It was ours before y'all took it off us ...


And 'you' took it from????


How do you get your leathers on, over that great big chip on your shoulder? :doh:


So let's hear YOUR view of 'our' history. Enlighten us.

Hey the threads about the miners/Mining and if you pick the right posts quite informative!

Start your own thread LOL!!!

[Crasherfromwayback]

We didn't "take it" from anyone .. You have a view of our history which was perpetrated by the immigrants, who did so to give them (and you) an excuse to take the country ...




Don't you think that the memory might actually be justified ?

I could be well wrong...but I'm pretty sure 'your' people weren't the first to occupy this fine land? If so...what did you pay the original 'owners', so that you can call it 'yours'?