NOT the Scottish Thread

[marty]

So let's bring it in here...


Originally Posted by Crasherfromwayback
I could be well wrong...but I'm pretty sure 'your' people weren't the first to occupy this fine land? If so...what did you pay the original 'owners', so that you can call it 'yours'?




Originally Posted by phill-k
Is that you hone hiding behind the avitar




Originally Posted by Reckless
Hey the threads about the miners/Mining and if you pick the right posts quite informative!

Start your own thread LOL!!!



Wott he said ... my first reaction as I followed through - then arrived at Reckless' response ... not for this thread ...

[Banditbandit]

Yeah .. OK ... was thinking about it myself ... I'm busy right now ... and my answer will be longish .. give me a chance to write it all down .. and I'll post here ...

[scumdog]

OK, I'll roll the first dice; - what was so unattractive with Hawaiiki (I think that's what it was called) to cause people to climb aboard a big-arsed canoe and bugger off for thousands of miles across the sea to EnnZedd?

[admenk]

OK, I'll roll the first dice; - what was so unattractive with Hawaiiki

All that sun and those half naked girls in nothing but grass skirts - it's enough to make anyone want to leave !

Seriously, the trouble with the question of who was here and when, and who was first, is that it's wrapped up in today's politics and it's hard to find hard facts on either side. I only know it wasn't me as I only came 3 years ago....:innocent:

[jim.cox]

as I only came 3 years ago....

You should get your bits polished more often than that, Mate.

There are some lovely ladies down here on Manchester St who would be more than willing to help (for a fee )

[Edbear]

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/when-was-new-zealand-first-settled/1

[MSTRS]

OK, I'll roll the first dice; - what was so unattractive with Hawaiiki (I think that's what it was called) to cause people to climb aboard a big-arsed canoe and bugger off for thousands of miles across the sea to EnnZedd?

At the risk of getting a beating, or worse....acronyms.
TAB, DPB, STDs etc
:shit::chase:

[Edbear]

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/moriori/1

http://history-nz.org/moriori.html

[nodrog]

OK, I'll roll the first dice; - what was so unattractive with Hawaiiki (I think that's what it was called) to cause people to climb aboard a big-arsed canoe and bugger off for thousands of miles across the sea to EnnZedd?

They just went out fishing for the day, without the anchor.

Fanny.

[Banditbandit]

At the risk of getting a beating, or worse....acronyms.
TAB, DPB, STDs etc
:shit::chase:

No beating .. I laughed ... at least we can still laugh at ourselves ... (Just you buggas shouldn't laugh at us Māori ...)

That's the problem ... who is "Us" ?

Anway ...

This Māori man is driving home from the pub when he sees a "Booze Bus". Pulling over, he leans out and says "What a great Idea ... give me two dozen Tuis mate."

The cop leans out and says "I think you have the wrong idea about what a booze bus is - so now I'll require you to undergo a breath test. Please blow into this bag."

The Māori says; "Sorry, mate, I'm an asthmatic and my doctor says I can't blow into bags like that."

"In that case," says the policeman, "I'll require you to come inside and give us a blood test."

"No," replies the Māori man. "I'm a hemophiliac and my doctor says you can't take blood in case I bleed to death."

"Well," says the policeman, "I'll require you to give me a urine sample to test for alcohol content. I suppose you have soemthing that says I am not allowed to do that?"

"Too right, mate," says the Māori man. "The Treaty of Waitangi says you can't take the piss out of us Māori ..."

(And if you Pākehā laugh too hard ... Then I'll beat you up ...)

But seriously .. give me a chance to put soemthing together and I'll get back to you ..

[bogan]

But seriously .. give me a chance to put soemthing together and I'll get back to you ..

Will we have to sign it?

[phill-k]

This is going to be good

Well seriously let me do it for you, in NZ we are all NZ'ers regardless of colour or our genetic disposition, who got here first is basically irrelevant today as we all share in the risk and rewards of living here, most have intermarried and mixed up the gene pool anyway, most benefit (and I use that term loosely) from our way of life here, no one is disadvantaged by our collective presence and in fact as a society we like to look after those who are not as fortunate as others, we have a great environment and one of the few big questions we need to face now is how he move forward with our environment, me I want to see nuclear power plants, but I also want to see the continuance of extracting our countries wealth in a controlled manner by NZ'ers not overseas owned organisations. I'm happy if Maori wish to return to the way they were, up to a point, I don't want to see them believe they have greater rights than any other NZ citizen, but I'm also happy to offer special respect to Maori for having found our paradise first (or second):woohoo:
there all said and It's still before five o'clock hence no wine has been partaken of yet, but I'm sure this thread is going to be a good one.:bye:

[Hitcher]

Repeat after me: "We are all immigrants".

[Bald Eagle]

Repeat after me: "We are all immigrants".

Speak for yourself . I was born here. I'm not European, I'm not Maori, I'm not Pakeha.
I am a New Zealander.

Rant end

[Ronin]

:corn::corn:

[Ronin]

Speak for yourself . I was born here. I'm not European, I'm not Maori, I'm not Pakeha.
I am a New Zealander.

Rant end

I'm with baldy. I was born here.

[MSTRS]

Speak for yourself . I was born here. I'm not European, I'm not Maori, I'm not Pakeha.
I am a New Zealander.



Right on, brother.

[bogan]

Speak for yourself . I was born here. I'm not European, I'm not Maori, I'm not Pakeha.
I am a New Zealander.

Rant end

Well put that man! and for some more well puttedness...

In eastern New Zealand born and raised
On the playground was where I spent most of my days
Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool
And all shootin some b-ball outside of the school
When a couple of guys
Who were up to no good
Startin making trouble in my neighborhood
I got in one little fight and my mom got scared
And said 'You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air'

:D

[ducatilover]

Speak for yourself . I was born here. I'm not European, I'm not Maori, I'm not Pakeha.
I am a New Zealander.

Rant end

:yes: Same here. Possibly the only way you can put it.

[marty]

Well put that man! and for some more well puttedness...

In eastern New Zealand born and raised
On the playground was where I spent most of my days
Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool
And all shootin some b-ball outside of the school
When a couple of guys
Who were up to no good
Startin making trouble in my neighborhood
I got in one little fight and my mom got scared
And said 'You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air'

:D

or, 'You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Pan Mure' It's kinda like Bel Air. Just without the palm trees

[phill-k]

So where is the token native who's going to explain why we shouldn't be here and why they don't want a part of our white honky ways, he's already red rep ed me on the other thread and said he would be along to explain why we should all f**k off somewhere else, come on boy front up:yes:

Oh and before u bring up the race card my "boss" is one of ues but she dosn't want me or any one else to treat her different

[marty]

it's not even about tokenism or favoritism. i refuse to play a part in both. i pay my taxes, i play my part in the community, and i play my part in being a contributing member of our beautiful country.

what really fucks me off is before the white man arrived, the natives were busy killing each other, eating them, and claiming that land for themselves. however now it just seems they are pissed off with being tricked out of their spot in the sun, and now are more than happy to use the white man's magic to get it back.

i fully understand the attachment to the land. 12 generations ago my most of my ancestors were murdered or and forcibly removed from their land - only a handful of them were kept alive for slave duty. i have returned to where that happened - a very sombre place for me. i can't blame the people of the day though.

i suggest that before any more waitangi claims arre made, all of the complainant groups have to agree on the terms and distribution of any successful claim.

[scissorhands]

In 1964 the Dutch Gubberment paid Mum, Dad, and us 2 kids to fly to NZ to relocate as Holland was 'full', even got 6 months free accommodation on arrival and help with jobs..

15-20 years later, policy changed and many refugees and immigrants moved to The Netherlands

Back in 1964 NZ had the 2ND HIGHEST standard of living because we emulated Sweden's soft SOCIALIST policies, our ministers travelling there often to learn from the Swedes who were #1 and still are.

[kevfromcoro]

A maori walks into a bar with a seagull on his shoulder...

The barman asks.
where did you get that.

And the seagull replies......
plenty more down the tip........

[Banditbandit]

So where is the token native who's going to explain why we shouldn't be here and why they don't want a part of our white honky ways, he's already red rep ed me on the other thread and said he would be along to explain why we should all f**k off somewhere else, come on boy front up:yes:

Oh and before u bring up the race card my "boss" is one of ues but she dosn't want me or any one else to treat her different`

Today - It will be today - my home computer has crashed and burnt so I have to sneak time at work ... and I was busy yesterday .. sometime today I'll post what I want to say ... (apologies for the red rep ... just a reaction ...)


Can I tell one now? :eek:

A pakeha and a maori were sitting in the pub drowning their sorrows when in walked Jesus. He said to the pakeha "What ails you my son?" The pakeha replied "I'm blind and don't know how I can cope without sight".

With that, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the mans eyes and the man leapt to his feet and yelled "It's a miracle, I can see again".

Jesus then turned to the maori guy and said "And you my son, what ails you?" The maori replied "I have this terrible back which gives me constant pain". Jesus reached out to touch the man's back when suddenly the maori lept from his seat out of the reach of Jesus' hand and said "Fuck off bro, I'm on a benefit".


A maori walks into a bar with a seagull on his shoulder...

The barman asks.
where did you get that.

And the seagull replies......
plenty more down the tip........

See ... while these two are amusing they are "put down" jokes ....

[marty]

`





See ... while these two are amusing they are "put down" jokes ....


Gee thanks for pointing that out. We may be white, but that doesn't necessarily mean we're stupid. Don't forget the white guys did figure out how to scam land and the seabed off the natives for a few blankets and some guns

[Hitcher]

Back in 1964 NZ had the 2ND HIGHEST standard of living because we emulated Sweden's soft SOCIALIST policies, our ministers travelling there often to learn from the Swedes who were #1 and still are.

Nonsense. We had a standard of living that high because we earned shitloads from export wool, meat and dairy products and had nothing of any great consequence to spend it on because of the import and foreign exchange controls that were in place. New Zealand's economy has never had much to do with conscious design or intent.

[MSTRS]

Nonsense. We had a standard of living that high because we earned shitloads from export wool, meat and dairy products and had nothing of any great consequence to spend it on because of the import and foreign exchange controls that were in place. New Zealand's economy has never had much to do with conscious design or intent.

You forgot that Mother England :sick: also bought everything we could produce. We didn't have to fight for a market or sales.

[MisterD]

i suggest that before any more waitangi claims arre made, all of the complainant groups have to agree on the terms and distribution of any successful claim.

Nah. I reckon it's time we set up a Technology Licencing Tribunal and force the Maori aristocracy that are sitting on all that cash to pay in order for "their people" to benefit from everything that the white man brought.

Their distant rellies might have got here first, but my distant ancestors were at the heart of the industrial revolution and I demand recognition of that.

[ducatilover]

And it was then that the civil war started.....
New Zealand was torn apart, the carnage was immense.

In the quiet of the night, Doug came and stole all your V-twins.




If only. Why can't the sheeple just be New Zealanders? Is it really that hard? We should be thankful that we have a beautiful country and didn't have to try slaughter everyone for it.

[mashman]

And it was then that the civil war started.....
New Zealand was torn apart, the carnage was immense.

In the quiet of the night, Doug came and stole all your V-twins.

If only. Why can't the sheeple just be New Zealanders? Is it really that hard? We should be thankful that we have a beautiful country and didn't have to try slaughter everyone for it.

http://207.228.243.82/static/sfh.jpg

:stupid:

[ducatilover]

:stupid:

Love and peace broooooooooo. :rockon:

[Dean]

Tena kotou Tena kotou Tena kotou katoa.

Tu ana au ki nga tihi tapu o nga pae maunga o te wharetapu o ngapuhi. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBm9m0gUuus&feature=related

Us, 'Maori' are lost, we are no more. There are no full blooded Maori left just halfies and quarter europeans we still have the culture the tikanga to embrace. But yet....the government make statistics out of us?? Like how many are in prison - the Government have the flexibility to chose which part the criminal belongs too when they fail and which part of them when they succeed to suit the demographics.

I bet you never knew Dan Carter is 'Maori', you know the best fh in the world and sexiest man in Nz according to the magazines, his father is from Ngati Tahu and only a 'maori' male can pass the titleship of Rangatira. But you might say hes only got a little bit in him, so does every other blarrrdy 'Maori!'

We do come from Hawaiiki, the biologists should use their time and resources to find out where that exact place is instead of 9/10 trying to prove 'white' people were here before Maori as an excuse for the injustices - you know this is true.

Im fine if Celtics were here before us or any other forgotten race because my homeland is Hawaiiki not here. However I find it hard to beleive celtics were here when I found out my ancestors were fond of stone so much so they built and lived in beehive stone like houses and created stone formations and statues on Easter Island. *see photo

There is no conclusive evidence to this day of Mori Ori stepping a single foot on what we know is New Zealand, rather on a island far in the pacific called Chatham Islands.

Lastly, we do not directly come from Asians, it has been fact that we come from two different people. The women come from Taiwan and the men come from Melanesian stock - fijian, png along with other snippets of polynesian. The asian women used us as tour guides around the pacific for trade we took them too the americas and picked up the kumara and many other things. We breifly stayed on Hawaii, Easter Island, Marquesan Islands, Society Islands, Tonga, Tahiti, Pitcairn Islands, Samoa, fiji, RaroTonga -Cook Islands to here. = http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s823810.htm

Anyways you all have a good day its a sunny one:sunny:, and I hope this helps clear things up. Enoho Ra:bye:

[Str8 Jacket]

Oh Deanis, it's been awhile......

[Ronin]

DEAN!!!

You have cleaned the sand out of your Vagina then?

[mashman]

meanwhile back in 21st century New Zealand :blink:

Sorry Dean, as interesting as that is, the world is a completely different place. Wasting air discussing who did what to who and who stole what from who 150+ years ago kinda gets very boring very quickly and is VERY expensive too... because they are ALL dead and who knows what really happened!

[Ronin]

Lastly, we do not directly come from Asians, it has been fact that we come from two different people. The women come from Taiwan and the men come from Melanesian stock - fijian, png along with other snippets of polynesian. The asian women used us as tour guides around the pacific for trade we took them too the americas and picked up the kumara and many other things. We breifly stayed on Hawaii, Easter Island, Marquesan Islands, Society Islands, Tonga, Tahiti, Pitcairn Islands, Samoa, fiji, RaroTonga -Cook Islands to here. = http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s823810.htm



From The above link

Adele Whyte: Okay, basically we found that there would have had to have been at least 56 women on the original Waka that came to New Zealand.



So when you say cuz you really mean it huh? :yes:

[Ronin]

meanwhile back in 21st century New Zealand :blink:

Sorry Dean, as interesting as that is, the world is a completely different place. Wasting air discussing who did what to who and who stole what from who 150+ years ago kinda gets very boring very quickly and is VERY expensive too... because they are ALL dead and who knows what really happened!

OI. Quiet in the back seat you socialist scum...

Just cos your right this one time :-)

[mashman]

OI. Quiet in the back seat you socialist scum...

Just cos your right this one time :-)

Cuuuuuuuuuuumon you Reds :shifty: and i prefer the term Humanitarian tyvm :lol:...

i'm never right, tis just that sometimes folk agree with me :shifty:

[Banditbandit]

Kia ora ano

OK .. here it comes - it's longish and I've chopped it up into three posts - it also covers a lot of ground ... touching briefly on many points ... so please let me post it all before you start responding ...

Please also TRY and read it all ... and note the half apology at the beginning - I didn't want to waste time editing it to change the first/second person plurals ... that's just the way some of us talk ...

Then I'll try to answer some of the questiosn above - and discuss your responses.

[Banditbandit]

Āku mihi ki a koutou, ngā tangata e panui ana tēnei kōrero. Taku hiahia ka ako koutou ō nga wkakaaro o te iwi Māori.

First of all, I want to frame our shared history in a slightly different way to what most of you will be used to. The history many of you have learnt in school is a version of history that serves the interests on the colonizing immigrants. This is one of our histories. It is not an overall Māori history, it is the history, in broad brush, of my Iwi, why most of you know as Whanganui, but is actually called Te Ati Haunui-a-Paparangi.

(As I read this, I see that I have written in first/second people plural – that’s our way of expressing it, one of the seemingly small differences between us – but one that can and does lead to problems between us. Please do not take it personally, as I believe that we have all inherited the mess – and we are not responsible for the mess. We are not responsible for the past and I don’t mean it that way. We ARE responsible for the future.)

Tēnei ta matou korero tawhito ....

In the beginning of time in this country a group of people arrived, known as Paerangi, named for their leader. No-one knows where they came from, and some stories I have been told say they were created here. But most stories say they journeyed here. They were the first people in that area.

Paerangi and his people settled around the base of Ruapehu. As they multiplied, they spread down the fertile valleys of the Whanganui. When Kupe journeyed here from Tahiti (or Tawhiti in our way), he travelled up the Whanganui and climbed a hill. In the distance he saw the villages and fires of Paerangi, saw the land was occupied, and left without making contact.

On his return to Tahiti, Kupe told his brother-in-law Turi of a beautiful lake he had seen in the new land. It was in a very fertile and unoccupied area. Turi, in conflict with the high chief Uenuku (population pressures) took his wife and his people and sailed for the new land on Aotea Waka. He landed in the Auckland area, and his people dragged Aotea waka across the small piece of land between the harbours, and sailed down the west coast to what is now called Aotea Harbour. They left their waka and travelled across land to the lake – Patea – where they settled.

As they multiplied, the people of Aotea Waka spread out and explored the new land. They came in contact with the people of Paerangi, and as they were human beings they fought, they intermarried – they did human things. (And yes, after a battle they may well have eaten some of the enemy ... I’ll look at that one later ...)
A man called Pamoana, who was born in the Patea area, travelled into the river and met and fell in love with a high born woman called Tauiri. The couple wed and were given a home and land at Otukopiri (now known as Koriniti). My hapu is named Ngati Pamoana, after the man from Aotea Waka.

From this intermingling of the people of the river, Paerangi, and the people of Aotea Waka the iwi of Te Ati-Haunui-a-Paparangi was formed.

When white people arrived, they were welcomed. My ancestors could see the benefits of the new world and jumped in with both feet. The white people were sold land at the mouth of the river and the city began. Upriver my ancestors grew wheat, which they milled in their own flour mills, and brought it down river to sell to the white people. They also had apple orchards, peach orchards and other crops which they sold in the new town. They brought canoe-loads of firewood to sell in the new town. The people of Whanganui would not have survived without the help of Te Ati Haunui-a-Paparangi.

In May, 1864, the Hauhau travelled down the river to attack the town of Whanganui. They were stopped by the warriors of my hapu at Moutoa Island, in the river 55ks from Whanganui. During this battle the waka Teremoe was captured from the Hauhau by my hapu. IT was gifted to the National Museum, and still stands in Te Papa ... many of you will have seen it.

The grateful Pākehā took our village, Pakaitore, and turned it into a park, with a memorial to the battle of Moutoa Island. They called it Moutoa Gardens. Pakaitore was our summer fishing village. It was not sold as part of the Whanganui purchase as it did not belong to the people of that area, who sold the land to the settlers. It belonged to the people upriver, as a summer fishing village. When the town was built, it was where we sold our food and firewood, our goods to the Pākehā. It was known by the Pākehā as Market Square. After it was taken we had nowhere inthe city to camp for summer fishing, or to sell our goods to the Pākehā.

When Titokowaru rampaged out of Southern Taranaki we fought against him, saving Whanganui from complete destruction. Titokowaru and his warriors were camped at what is now Virginia Lake, on the hills overlooking the town. Whanganui warriors were part of the fight that pushed him back to Taranaki. Our warriors were lead by Kepa Te Rangihiwinui (known to the Pākehā as Major Kemp). The grateful Pākehā soldiers camped on Market Square. Did they ask us if they could do that? No.

Now, being human beings, the people of the iwi and the settlers intermarried. Today, Te Ati Haunui-a-Paparangi includes descendents from every group of people who have come to this country. I have relations with Asian eyes, I have seen two women sitting side by side who you would swear were sisters, if not twins, except one had brown hair, brown eyes and a dark skin, while the other had blonde hair, blue eyes and pale skin. I have met a man from the iwi who talks of his ancestor the Rev Norman MacLeod, who lead his people to settle south of Whangarei . I can also whakapapa to this group of Pākehā settlers. We share common Māori and Pākehā ancestors.

These are all people of Te Ati Haunui-a-Paparangi – and our whakapapa includes ALL groups who have come to this land – from Paerangi, to Aotea Waka – to the English, the Scots, the Irish, the Asian – All groups. We do not consider them Māori or Pākehā – they are Te Ati Haunui-a-Paparangi. These people have all been welcomed for what they offered, given homes and lands, taken to our beds – are US.
The wharenui, (meeting house) at Koriniti is called Waiherehere – the coming together of streams. But the allusion here is not to rivers or creaks joining but to the coming together of Māori and Pākehā as one – walking into the future together. We have yet to see this happen.

This is our history – Te Ati-Haunui-a-Paparangi – and it is an inclusive history – a history of us – all the people who have been born to, contributed to, and make up Te Ati-Haunui-a-Paparangi. It does not tell of Māori and Pākehā – this history says we are all Te Ati-Haunui-a-Paparangi.

We took you into our hearts, our homes, our beds. We fed you, we defended you – and what did you do in return? Steal more of our land, destroy our economic base and relegated us to second-class citizens. Force us into Native Schools to learn to be farm labourers and domestic servants when we wanted to be doctors, lawyers and teachers. You tell derogatory jokes about us. You pass laws that stop us using the courts to settle grievances and arguments .... We are your friends and relations – your children, grandchildren, wives and husbands ... why do you treat us that way ?

You say you are New Zealanders – I don’t disagree at all. We were all born here. But what you mean is not what we mean ... when we say “Us” we mean all the members of Te Ati Haunui-a-Paparangi ... our symbolism and history is of welcoming the newcomers to this land and making them at home ... (we are all human – no-one is perfect – no group is superior) When you say “Us” it is always in relation to “them” – Māori ... You exclude us, tell derogatory jokes about us, consider us lazy and ignorant ... consider yourselves better ... Why?

We say “What is the most important thing in this world? It is People – People – People” You seem to say “It is things, things things ...”

Let me break this post here and continue that theme later.

[Banditbandit]

So - Your histories say that Captain Cook discovered this country and that the white people settled here and saved the savages from themselves and civilized us ...
We would disagree. We discovered these islands.

Captain Cook arrived in Tahiti and met a leader, Tupaia, a tohunga, who drew a map of the Pacific Ocean showing 36 named islands, including two in the southern area called Aotea and Pounamu. Cook’s redrawing of Tupaia’s map is still in the British Museum. Tupaia sailed here with Cook – Tupaia showed him where Aotea and Pounamu were.

Cooks instructions from the Royal Society, which sponsored his first voyage in the Endeavour, are interesting. The Earl of Morton wrote that Cook should avoid violence whenever possible. “They are the natural, and in the strictest sense of the word, the legal possessors of the several regions they inhabit. No European has a right occupy any part of their country, or to settle among them without their voluntary consent. Conquest over such people can give no just title; because they could never be aggressors. They may naturally and justly attempt to repel intruders, whom they may apprehend are come to disturb them in the quiet possession of their country. Therefore should they in a hostile manner oppose a landing, and kill some men in the attempt, even this would hardly justify firing among them, ‘til every other gentle method had been tried.”

Cook records that conflicts did arise, but attributed them to a lack of knowledge of the ways of the people of the new country. Has it really changed? Have Pākehā in New Zealand taken the time to learn our ways? We have been forced to learn yours – what do most of you know about ours?

Tasman had arrived 100 years earlier (he was lost). Tasman never landed, but had encounters with people in the area now known as Tasman bay. Waka paddled out close to Tasman’s ship and challenged the crew by blowing Pukaea (sounds like a trumpet). Tasman’s crew responded by blowing their own trumpets – a clear signal to the waka that they were there to fight, so the people in the waka got in first – they attacked. Tasman of course, labelled them murderous savages, and the area is called Murderers Bay.

Morton wrote his instructions in 1768. So what happened?

Cook travelled around the country, charting it, meeting people, fishing for food, taking plants for food and trees for timber – firewood and repairs to the Endeavour. In Tamatea (Dusky Sound) he records taking 200lbs of fish PER DAY to feed the crew. That had a major effect on the resources that fed our ancestors. Today we complain of overseas fishing boats taking our fish and depleting our resources. Cook’s one ship had a major effect on our resources. The modern complaint does not look so modern to us. If you object to the international fishing fleets taking our fish - we have felt that way since the late 18th Century.

In the north, ships that arrived here, landed crew and cut down trees for firewood and repairs. Many of these trees were named and had been passed from generation to generation as a resource because of the bird life they attracted. They belonged to family groups. The white people arrived and cut them down without permission. When we learnt what you wanted, we cut down trees you could take and sold them to ships. But the white sailors continued to take our trees without permission. The sailors shot hundreds of birds (our food resources) for food – without permission. When we tried to gain things in payment you got angry, called us thieves and shot at us. When we were angry enough to try to stop you taking our food resources, you called us murderous savages and shot at us. Was it any wonder the sailors were attacked? Many of you reading this would have done the same if invaders came and took your resources.

And you traded one iron nail for trees sold in England for 80 pounds – a huge profit. You traded something of immense value to us, but you knew you were ripping us off. It is recorded in the logs and diaries of the ships that you were getting the better of the deal by a huge amount. We had cut down our resources, that fed, clothed and housed us, and you knowingly ripped us off.

You gave us plants and showed us how to grow them. We cleared forest and planted gardens so when more ships arrived we had wheat, potatoes, beans, cabbages, peas and turnips as well as our own food to sell to you. Some of the white sailors, when told that we had no food to sell because the crops were not ready, rampaged through our villages, pillaging goods and overturning our new crops looking for food which we had said was not there. They found it was not. Later we had pig and goat meat to sell you, then chicken and beef. We worked hard to create goods to trade – now you call us lazy – what happened between us?

When Cook was in Totora-nui (Queen Charlotte Sound) he planted a pole on an island, and had a ceremony to mark his time there. When he returned his was disappointed to find the island empty and the people he had met gone. To us, the ceremony and the erection of the pole signalled that Cook had put his mana on the island – so we left it for him.

You infected us with VD and other diseases, which killed us in large numbers.
In the early 1800s hundreds of sealers came to these shores and killed off the seals- a resource that had fed our people for generations. Did they ask?

In around 1811 Ruatara (from the north) was in Port Jackson (Sydney) and saw there was a depression and starvation. He conceived the idea of growing wheat on his land, shipping it to Sydney to sell to feed people. It was the beginning. By 1860 there were something like 60 Māori-owned trading ships plying the waters around NZ and the Tasman – shipping Māori produce and goods for sail in essentially European markets. We jumped into Capitalism and the new world with both feet. Today the percentage of entrepreneurs per capita amongst Māori is the highest in the world. And you call us lazy?

We had one of the highest and fastest pickup rates for literacy of any oral culture. By 1860 90% of Māori could read and write. So much for us being ignorant savages.
You called us barbaric savages, and were horrified we ate people. We were horrified at your ways.

We were horrified at the way you flogged sailors for small offences. In 1805 a leader from the Bay of Islands Te Pahi was in Sydney. He pleased for the life of a white man sentenced to death for stealing a piece of pork.

You called us “barbaric” and “savages” and “cannibals” and thought yourselves superior. In the mid-1770s Europe was a mess. There was mass starvation, poverty .. Conflict and horrors. There was so little food peasants ate grass hay and wild roots, rotten chestnuts ... there were contagious diseases as lice and fleas proliferated. 40-50% child mortality rates in some areas,. General life expectancy was around 25 years, slightly lower than amongst the barbaric Māori ... public “justice included hanging, mass floggings, beheading, burning at the stake, quartering, eye gouging ... The men who overthrew Charles the First were cut to pieces while alive and watched as their body parts were thrown on a fire ... until they died of their injuries. Rebels had a small hole cut in their stomach and their intestines drawn out around a spit – while they were still alive and watching (drawing). You called US barbaric? Te Pahi was horrified at the death penalty for stealing a piece of pork – he would have been more horrified had he known the true extent of British “justice”.

You called us “warlike” and living in a state of constant war – but that is also a perfect description of Europe at the time.

How were you superior to us ? Your technology might have been, but as people ?
Recently a young boy caught tagging in Auckland was stabbed and died by the homeowner – is that the sign of a civilized society? Killed for painting on a fence that was not his. Both Māori and Pākehā condemmed the boy’s actions – but did he deserve to die for it? Do we hate each other so much? Or, have we generated so much hate that this happened? Or do you really value possessions above life?

What is the most important thing in the world? It is People, People, People ...

[Banditbandit]

So, around 1860 some of us were getting angry enough to fight back. There had been minor since 1840, after the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi, which the white settlers never honoured. The early fighting was an attempt by Māori to make the white settlers live up to the agreement they had signed.

By 1860 there was pressure from white settlers for more land. But we were refusing to sell. We did not want New Zealand land to have foreign owners. (I hear echoes of that in today’s debate about foreign ownership ... your arguments are not new to us ...)

Wars broke out. There was fault on both sides, but you were trying to take our land and we refused. Some of us were angry enough to defend our lands with guns. Some of us fought against you, some of us fought on your side and some were neutral. We all suffered. The settler Government passed laws to confiscate land from rebels. But they were not interested in punishing rebels.)They were interested in gaining land. When Tuhoe rebelled it was land of Ngati Awa and Whakatohea that was confiscated. The settlers didn’t want Tuhoe land (Te Urewera) they wanted the fertile farm land on the plains – the land of Ngati Awa and Whakatohea.

The fertile farm lands of the Waikato, Māori farms that fed early Auckland, were a prime target and war was provoked, so the land could be conquered and taken. We were growing wheat on our lands, milling it in our mills, shipping it on our river barges to Auckland and selling it there, or shipping it to Australia on our ships to sell there. The settlers took this away from Tainui – and in similar ways from other iwi.

In 1881 settler soldiers invaded Parihaka, the centre of our passive resistance movement, mowing down the children we sent out to greet them, swing swords and pistols from horseback and bombarding the town. There was no resistance, but people were shot and the survivors arrested and imprisoned or fled into the bush.
At Rangiawhiao, in the Waikato, the men were away fighting. Settler forces snuck passed our men and attacked the defenceless town. Old men, women and children sought shelter in the church. IT was set on fire by the soldiers and the women, children and old men shot down if they tried to escape the burning building.

On several occasions the settler soldiers bombarded and attack our pa on Sundays. You had taught us this was the day of rest, to honour the God we accepted. We honoured that and were holding prayers and singing, when the Christian soldiers attacked – in defiance of their own day of rest. What was that about?

We fought each other to a standstill. But the result was that we lost our land – our economic base. We were reduced to second class citizens in our own country. Not just the groups who fought the settlers – we all suffered. We basically lost everything. We are still suffering the effects.

Many of your relation remaining in Europe lost everything ... and retain the memory and anger today ... Northern Ireland, Former Yugoslavia, and more recently Palestine and the Israelis. You tell us to forget the grievances of the past – but your relations remaining in Europe do not forget their past or their grievances. How many of you came here as a result of the Highland land clearances? Of the Irish potato famines and “the Troubles”? How many transported from the English courts? You may have forgotten your past because you don’t live surrounded by it. We do ....

I want to see Māori and Pākehā walking together into the future. I want to see Waiherehere more than just a symbolic name on a wharenui. I have lived in both Māori and Pākehā worlds. To me, Te Ao Māori is much saner – it’s a better way to live (and I don’t mean in the old ways, but based on our values – on tikanga and kawa). A country built on our values would be a better place for EVERYONE to live in. What is the most important thing in the world? It is People, People, People.

When Mike Smith tried to cut down the pine on Maungakiekie (One Tree Hill) I wanted to say to him “Don’t attack the tree – blow up the Monument.” The statute and needle was erected to commemorate a dying race – the settlers expected Māori to die out. But we are still here. And if the population changes the way it is predicted to, by the year 2050 the majority population of this country will be Polynesian – both Māori and Pacific Islanders. There will be traces of European blood (just as the settlers believed there would be traces of Māori blood) but white New Zealand will be in a minority. Some of you will be alive then. What will our country be like?

If you continue to treat us the way you do, I fear for our future. There will be very angry people, and maybe even a Robert Mugabe. We have resorted to guns in the past. I would not like to see that happen again.

I love this country – my country, our country. I know its histories, its people, its landscapes. I hope we can do better and produce a Nelson Mandela instead of a Robert Mugabe ...

[Banditbandit]

Tēna rā outou. To those of you who took the time to read all that, āku mihi aroha kia koutou (I greet you warmly).

I will try to respond to questions, and there will probably be many ...

[Banditbandit]

OK, I'll roll the first dice; - what was so unattractive with Hawaiiki (I think that's what it was called) to cause people to climb aboard a big-arsed canoe and bugger off for thousands of miles across the sea to EnnZedd?

That one's easy - population pressures. Small islands - growing population - better life - much the same reason that all people have come here - lookign for a better life.

In the case of Aotea waka ? Turi was having a running fight with the high chief Uenuku. One day Turi and has people were forced to send baskets of food to Uenuku as a tribute. Turi killed Uenuku's favourite young son, cooked him and put the meat in the tribute baskets. Uenuku ate the food - and when he foud out what he had eaten he was "seriously pissed ..."

I would have jumped on the waka and sailed over the horison too ..

[bogan]

So because settlers did bad things to natives (who may themselves have done bad things to natives who were already here) anyone who is part native should be given preferential treatment?

I write that to try and understand what the point of your story was, there was no summary or discenable point to your ramblings.

[Banditbandit]

Speak for yourself . I was born here. I'm not European, I'm not Maori, I'm not Pakeha.
I am a New Zealander.

Rant end

This is a serious issue. I do not disagree. The problem is that we see that what many people mean by "New ZEalander" is white ... Originally it meant "Māori" .. and in most of the early writings Māori are called "New Zealanders" ...

Following the assimilation policies of the late 19th and early 20th Centuries Māori were meant to become like white people ... we resisted and have resisted the label "New Zealander" ...

If it was an inclusive label, as our concept of Us is inclusive ... then I would be happy to accept that label ...

[Banditbandit]

Hang about, I need coffee and cigarettes ...

[marty]

Nice story.

I'm not going to agree or disagree with any of your points, as they are obviously your own truths.

I'm not really sure why Taranaki maori invaded The Chathams - how did they even know they were there, and it's a long way from Waitara across the North Island and the ocean to the Chatams - there must have been some serious whanau issues going on for them to go that far for what?

I'm not really sure exactly what it is that modern maori want from the current processes being undertaken. Do they even know?

[Banditbandit]

So because settlers did bad things to natives (who may themselves have done bad things to natives who were already here) anyone who is part native should be given preferential treatment?

I write that to try and understand what the point of your story was, there was no summary or discenable point to your ramblings.

Yes, it is a bit of a ramble. I suppose the point I am trying to make is that we see the world in different ways, we see our history and the point we are at today in different ways. It's not written in my usual academic way - but more a setting out of a position from which I know wish to discuss many of the points and issues people are raising in other (and less appropriate) forums.

Where did I say that I support "preferential treatment"? Where, in what I have written does it argue that, or suggest that?

I have difficulty responding to your question because the concept of "preferential treatment" is a Pākehā idea, not a Māori idea. We have different reasons for asking to be treated in certain ways. But that is no different from people on sickness benefits who get money from the govermment that the rest of us don't. Do they get "preferential treatment? In some ways, yes they do.

Give me some specific examples ... and I might be able to respond.

[Banditbandit]

Nice story.

I'm not going to agree or disagree with any of your points, as they are obviously your own truths.

I'm not really sure why Taranaki maori invaded The Chathams - how did they even know they were there, and it's a long way from Waitara across the North Island and the ocean to the Chatams - there must have been some serious whanau issues going on for them to go that far for what?

I'm not really sure exactly what it is that modern maori want from the current processes being undertaken. Do they even know?

I seriously doubt that Modern Māori couild agree on a collective "what we want from the current processes" ...

And what did Taranaki Māori invade the Chathams? Probably because they wanted the resources - the food and land ... just like all human beings invade other people's countries.

[Banditbandit]

So because settlers did bad things to natives (who may themselves have done bad things to natives who were already here) anyone who is part native should be given preferential treatment?


OK .. let's start with "here first ..." Māori were here first - in Whanganui's case it was Paerangi ... in small and isolated populations to start - growing as more waka arrived ... the Moriori were never here.

Modern social anthropology has shown that the Chathams was probably settled from Eastern Polynesia at the same time as the mainland islands. The culture on the Chathams lost contact with the rest and developed in different ways - becoming Moriori ... while the culture on the mainland islands developed into Māori culture ... our own stories support that position.

More recent theories suggest settlement from the mainland islands .. and then the development of a separate culture.

The myth that Moriori were here first and were conquered and eaten by Māori is just that - a Pākehā myth - used to "justify" Pākehā invasion and conquest - "You did it to the Moriori so you can't complain when we do it to you ..."

[admenk]

First of all, thanks to Banditbandit for your posts which are not only informative but also polite and devoid of some of the abuse we see on KB.

I'm a real foreigner, having only arrived here 3 years ago, so although I'm a resident, I'll probably never call myself a New Zealander - although I love it here and think it's a great place to live. Because I'm an outsider, I don't have any vested interests or personal ties or grudges to the past in NZ.

We all have our own histories, and our own different versions of the same history. I expect that even the most "anti-Maori" commentators would agree that some pretty bad things were done to Maori over the years(as well as some good). Of course, the questions now are, are those injustices relevant today, and if so, what should be done about them?

I don't claim to have any answers, but at least some of the people involved are talking about it and trying to find a solution. (trouble is, the 4 million people in NZ will probably have 4 million slightly different answers!) Whilst we may not always agree, surely it's better to talk about our problems, as someone said, "jaw jaw is better than war war"

What I do know, is that it won't happen overnight, I'm from the UK, and whilst we don't hate each other anymore, there's still differences between English, Scots and Welsh over stuff that happened, in some cases hundreds of years ago. (The Irish "troubles" of course were a lot more recent)

I've recently completed a Te Reo Maori course, and it was one the best courses I've been on for years. I was shown nothing but kindness and understanding from all involved, the same, I might add, as my dealings with "non Maori" Unfortunatly, often the people you hear on TV are the radicalised, often racist idiots from both sides of the debate - they're the ones who unfortunatly get the airtime.

I apologise for my ramblings, what I'm trying to say as an outsider looking in, is that yes, there will always be differences in opinions, but let's all try to sort through them in the right way. I'd rather listen to hours of waffle on the topic (yes, a bit like my post) than see anyone get killed over it.

That's my two pennies worth - It will be an interesting debate !

[MSTRS]

Whew! that was a bit of a read.
What I take from it is that Maori had their culture and customs. Europeans had no comprehension of the meanings of those customs. The reverse is also true. Perhaps not a lot has changed, even today.
I doubt that anyone not raised in the 'Maori way' would ever understand the Haka and the challenge on entering a marae as anything other than a direct, real and present threat to one's physical well-being. It is the same as the horn blowing you mentioned. Without knowing the meaning, one would tend to respond in kind, and therefore 'you' would view them as being the aggressor. I've lived here all my life, I've been on a marae a couple of times, but I've never had a moko'd spear-waving 'savage' come bounding towards me making threatening gestures - should that ever happen, chances are I'd be wanting to defend myself by dealing to him before he dealt to me. Quelle insult, to Maori - simple preservation to me. And I'm not so different to most non-Maori.
Good luck going into the future side by side as 'equals' when that oh-so-basic cultural divide is so prevalent.

[MSTRS]

And why did Taranaki Māori invade the Chathams? Probably because they wanted the resources - the food and land ... just like all human beings invade other people's countries.

Interesting. As I understand it, the 'food' was the people. And the invaders didn't stay. Was it all a pre-emptive strike to avoid a Chatham-led attack on Taranaki?

[bogan]

Yes, it is a bit of a ramble. I suppose the point I am trying to make is that we see the world in different ways, we see our history and the point we are at today in different ways. It's not written in my usual academic way - but more a setting out of a position from which I know wish to discuss many of the points and issues people are raising in other (and less appropriate) forums.

Where did I say that I support "preferential treatment"? Where, in what I have written does it argue that, or suggest that?

I have difficulty responding to your question because the concept of "preferential treatment" is a Pākehā idea, not a Māori idea. We have different reasons for asking to be treated in certain ways. But that is no different from people on sickness benefits who get money from the govermment that the rest of us don't. Do they get "preferential treatment? In some ways, yes they do.

Give me some specific examples ... and I might be able to respond.

I just assumed that the whole point of this was to show how the evil settlers stole from the maori and now we all owe you guys heaps, ie preferential treatment. But if all you wanted to do was prove you see things differently, then goal acheived!

Preferential treatment to me (in this case) is giving someone of equal ability/potential an advantage based purely on race. So benefits not so much, unless they are lying pricks with nothing wrong with em!


OK .. let's start with "here first ..." Māori were here first - in Whanganui's case it was Paerangi ... in small and isolated populations to start - growing as more waka arrived ... the Moriori were never here.

and what about the moa? They were surely here, then some bastards ate them all.

[Bald Eagle]

If we all continue to live in our respective pasts and harbour greivances, it's going to be a long road ahead..

... but at least we've got the treaty to stop us actually killing each other anymore.

[Banditbandit]

Interesting. As I understand it, the 'food' was the people. And the invaders didn't stay. Was it all a pre-emptive strike to avoid a Chatham-led attack on Taranaki?

Yeah - they ate them. There's no getting past that history. But they did stay. Ngati Mutungu are still on the Chathams ... the other part is that the food they produiced on the land and from the sea was sent back to Parihaka .. which would not have survived without support from the Chathams .. Ironic that a non-violent rersistnace movement was supported by the violent invasion of the CHathams ..

No group of people (race/society/club) has a moral high ground. Our historieas are all bloody and nasty ...

Unfortunately, we are the descendents of the survivors - the violent agressors - the peaceful, non-aggressive people got wiped out ... (Not an original idea - straight from Heinlein)

[Banditbandit]

and what about the moa? They were surely here, then some bastards ate them all.

There were something like 56 species of birds that my ancestors hunted to extinction before Europeans arrived ... there's no getting away from such realities .. but they had no idea what was happening - no-one counted the bird populations ... if they had known they would not have killed them off ... (at least I hope they wouldn't have)

No one is perfect - we are all human beings ...

[mashman]

Hang about, I need coffee and cigarettes ...

I understand.

[Banditbandit]

I just assumed that the whole point of this was to show how the evil settlers stole from the maori and now we all owe you guys heaps, ie preferential treatment. But if all you wanted to do was prove you see things differently, then goal acheived!



So . if you can see that, then what is the way forward? We need to listen to each other ... and we don't.

I want to say that we've been listening to you for two centuries ... when do you listen to us ? But part of me recognises that's a provocative statement ...

I see attitudes hardening on both sides - hell, we are only human ... and the radical voices of Te Ao Māori piss off our Pākehā friends and relations - while the hard line rightwing voices of the Pākehā world piss off us ... how do we move forward together ?

[White trash]

There were something like 56 species of birds that my ancestors hunted to extinction before Europeans arrived ... there's no getting away from such realities .. but they had no idea what was happening - no-one counted the bird populations ... if they had known they would not have killed them off ... (at least I hope they wouldn't have)

No one is perfect - we are all human beings ...

Can't blame Maori for extinction anyway, there's thousands of species all over the globe extinct without being a food source. Changes to habitat/climate change, christ there's heaps of reasons.

Banditbandit, you seem to have a very frim grasp on your heritage and ancestory. Is this something you've researched extensively or information passed on to you by your elders?

[Banditbandit]

Can't blame Maori for extinction anyway, there's thousands of species all over the globe extinct without being a food source. Changes to habitat/climate change, christ there's heaps of reasons.

Banditbandit, you seem to have a very frim grasp on your heritage and ancestory. Is this something you've researched extensively or information passed on to you by your elders?

A bit of both - stories that are still told around the iwi - some books ... I've lived in this country for 55 years now - and just pick up and remember things about it's people and history ... also being a teacher/academic helps .. got the time to read and research ...

I can also trace the other side too - back to Sunderland and the Highland Land clearances ... and the bastard ruling class who kicked the people off the land ... stories still told in that part of my family (who when they get drunk sing Flower of Scotland and The Rising of the Moon ... )

It's all whakapapa ... stories about the past that makes us who we are today ...

[MSTRS]

It's all whakapapa ... stories about the past that makes us who we are today ...

Yep. Stories. Not always the truth, either. Depends who's telling them, eh?
We are defined by our pasts. But do we really need to be controlled by our pasts? Which is what I see happening with the grievance industry.

[Banditbandit]

Gee thanks for pointing that out. We may be white, but that doesn't necessarily mean we're stupid.

So, if you claim you are not stupid - why do you continue to do things that put down your friends and relations?


Don't forget the white guys did figure out how to scam land and the seabed off the natives for a few blankets and some guns

And you think making a joke of it will make it all go away? (By the way, we knew that land shook itself to bits every so often - we'd been here a while - So it might not have been such a great scam on your part after all ...)

But seriously ... I think some people do need to hear that the jokes they make are hurtful to other people and continue to perpetrate the divisions between people in this country ...

[Banditbandit]

Yep. Stories. Not always the truth, either. Depends who's telling them, eh?
We are defined by our pasts. But do we really need to be controlled by our pasts? Which is what I see happening with the grievance industry.

I agree. The only people who profit from the grienvance industry, as has been pointed out before, are lawyers.

However, the point is that the economic base was taken from us. An acknowledgement of that is important and a small gesture in return. Look at Ngai Tahu - took their settlement and within three years had doubled their money - now they are using it for the benefit of the iwi in the new world - education, health, housing ...

You may say "millions of dollars is not a small gesture ..." In terms of the losses it is, and in terms of today's world ? In the early 21st Century Telecom's profits for one year were $700 million - more than the total amount given to iwi in Treaty Settlements all up at that date ... At that level the settlements are small amounts.

Give us the ability to improve ourselves and we will ...

[bogan]

I see attitudes hardening on both sides - hell, we are only human ... and the radical voices of Te Ao Māori piss off our Pākehā friends and relations - while the hard line rightwing voices of the Pākehā world piss off us ... how do we move forward together ?

Remove any preferential treatment, scrap the maori seats in parliament, and perhaps the maori party too, I mean we can't be together if we are treated differently can we?

[phill-k]

Banditbandit I appreciate and respect you for the time you have spend recording this piece of history.

However with this respect, I also have some contempt as Maori like all the other NZer's have benefited from our colonising these lands, for you to determine that we are responsible for the Maori issues of the day, is to admit you take no responsibility for your extended family, we as a country have acknowledged past atrocities and for a small country have in that acknowledgement given over much of NZ's wealth for you to begin to right the pain, leaving the distribution to your peoples, this action of asking for compensation creates a division, how can we be one people when part of the partnership continually demands the country pays for its past mistakes, you in fact create the division. I don't have the answers and I'm not sure you have either, different interpretations of history are just that, to-day our future is important, history but explains a little of what we are made off.

Be strong.

[Banditbandit]

Banditbandit I appreciate and respect you for the time you have spend recording this piece of history.

However with this respect, I also have some contempt as Maori like all the other NZer's have benefited from our colonising these lands, for you to determine that we are responsible for the Maori issues of the day, is to admit you take no responsibility for your extended family, we as a country have acknowledged past atrocities and for a small country have in that acknowledgement given over much of NZ's wealth for you to begin to right the pain, leaving the distribution to your peoples, this action of asking for compensation creates a division, how can we be one people when part of the partnership continually demands the country pays for its past mistakes, you in fact create the division. I don't have the answers and I'm not sure you have either, different interpretations of history are just that, to-day our future is important, history but explains a little of what we are made off.

Be strong.

Thank you for taking the time to read my posts. I need to go now. You raise some very important issues. Let me respond tomorrow.

For those of you reading all this tonite, I'm not only line until tomorrow around 9am .. so please bear with me and don't expect the quick responses I have given today.

[White trash]

Thank you for taking the time to read my posts. I need to go now. You raise some very important issues. Let me respond tomorrow.

For those of you reading all this tonite, I'm not only line until tomorrow around 9am .. so please bear with me and don't expect the quick responses I have given today.

It intrigues me that there is only one (+ Dean) poster in this thread with the knowledge and literacy means to present the point of Maori history.

[Bald Eagle]

Or ... only one that can bothered.

[martybabe]

Banditbandit , I commend you for your work in this thread but I confess to being saddened by the overall tone. Much as you profess to wanting a utopian future where we all march on as one Nation in harmony (me too) your viewpoint/Perspective was quite clearly a defensive and accusatory one.

Who is this 'You' you frequently allude to, 'You gave us a nail' 'you gave us VD' 'you took from us'. You seem very biased and separatist in your opinions, you quote facts but in reality they are facts as you see them or as you have heard them.You weren't there and neither was anyone else alive Today.In all honesty, if I was in your place, I too would be fighting to be heard and probably fighting to right the injustices of the past but in the real world, the world where we all have a future together, constantly playing the game of blame will only hold any real unification of peoples back.

I'm English, I recently lost a German friend, I never asked but his Father could have been among the ones that occupied/stole my country from me, his uncle could have been amongst the ones that imprisoned my uncle in a POW camp for 5 years his brother could be responsible for bombing the crap out of my Nana's Street. I didn't blame, accuse or ram 'facts' of oppression and injustice down his throat. He wasn't to blame, he owed me no apology, he wasn't there, he wasn't born.


I can't and wont justify the actions of the people that came before me but equally I will not be held accountable for those actions either. I see huge division between the viewpoints of Maori and other New Zealanders, more than I had ever imagined before I came here, it's a sad state of affairs and whilst people continue to be as one sided as you (not just you, the opposition as well) I don't see any truly united NZ in my Crystal ball, sadly.

[MSTRS]

I can't and wont justify the actions of the people that came before me but equally I will not be held accountable for those actions either.

That is as it should be.
The world over, for all of man's history, civilisations/cultures have arisen, only to be destroyed by an invader, who was often as not, conquered in his turn.
It might not be palatable, but to the victor goes the spoils. NZ might have been the first time a colonising power entered into some sort of 'joint venture' with the inhabitants of a land, but the fact remains that the British presence here spelled the end of Maori as they were. Taking land etc is always what an usurping power does/did. That's their prime reason for being there in the first place.

[scumdog]

A

I can also trace the other side too - back to Sunderland and the Highland Land clearances ... and the bastard ruling class who kicked the people off the land ... stories still told in that part of my family (who when they get drunk sing Flower of Scotland and The Rising of the Moon ... )

It's all whakapapa ... stories about the past that makes us who we are today ...

Being Scots I can relate to that - but I don't dwell on it, I just get on with my life...:yes:

[Banditbandit]

Ata marie

Let me start - and after some thoughts overnight ... I've mixed a few quotes as starting points ... I'm not picking on anyone, or arguing with the person who wrote what I quote .. it's just a starting point for my own thoughts ...


Nice story.

I'm not going to agree or disagree with any of your points, as they are obviously your own truths.




We all have our own histories, and our own different versions of the same history. I expect that even the most "anti-Maori" commentators would agree that some pretty bad things were done to Maori over the years(as well as some good). Of course, the questions now are, are those injustices relevant today, and if so, what should be done about them?

I don't claim to have any answers, but at least some of the people involved are talking about it and trying to find a solution. (trouble is, the 4 million people in NZ will probably have 4 million slightly different answers!) Whilst we may not always agree, surely it's better to talk about our problems, as someone said, "jaw jaw is better than war war"

[/QUOTE]


Yes. Exactly. We hold our own truths about history .. But the "truths" we believe have a huge influence on how we see each other. What I am trying to show is that the truths for Māori are different ... to many people think there is just one "truth" and in many ways that goes with the definition of the word) but we keep getting fronted with different "truths" and told this is fact - such as we killed and ate the Mori ori who were here first - that the Europeans came to save us and we have benefited hugely from their prescence ... this is a very common narrative thread in discussions such as this one ...

No-one asked them to come - they came from a sense of superiority coupled with duty (Cecil Rhodes and the White Man's Burden for instance) ... from our perspective they were different but not superior ...

The world has certainly benefited from European science and knowledge - but who does that belong to? Should every country pay Italy for Marconi's invention? Should we all pay the USA for developing silicone chips? The intellectual history of the world is too mixed up to separate like that.

And who says we benefited? Many of my radical mates would disagree. Māori have not benefited as much as other groups from the wealth creation of the industrial revolution . we were given the low paid jobs (as were Pākehā) ... and now are usually the first out the door in a recession .. Māori unemployment rates have always exceeded Pākehā rates .... maybe that's because many of us are not as educated and qualified as our Pākehā friends and colleagues - and I can head backwards down the chain to say why ... I won't because it's now up to us to do something about it ... and we are. The problem is that it's taken a couple of hundred years to get to where we are .. adn the solution is not an overnght one, and it will take a couple of generations to start seeing results ...

And we can only see those results if our Pākehā friends help us. I don't mean more money, or time - I mean changing the public expressions of Māori put-downs and commetns which affect our young people - turnign them into angry rebels, gang memebrs, drug users ... People do become what we say they are ... and our angry young men turn to gangs, to violence, to drugs ...

We can help them, you can help us by nothing simpler than stopping some of the things you do and say ...


I doubt that anyone not raised in the 'Maori way' would ever understand the Haka and the challenge on entering a marae as anything other than a direct, real and present threat to one's physical well-being. It is the same as the horn blowing you mentioned. Without knowing the meaning, one would tend to respond in kind, and therefore 'you' would view them as being the aggressor. I've lived here all my life, I've been on a marae a couple of times, but I've never had a moko'd spear-waving 'savage' come bounding towards me making threatening gestures - should that ever happen, chances are I'd be wanting to defend myself by dealing to him before he dealt to me. Quelle insult, to Maori - simple preservation to me. And I'm not so different to most non-Maori.


I can understand that. The recent incident in the Far North was a little on the extreme end of the scale, and I must admit that if I was standing on the marae in front of that wero I would not have known whether I was safe or not .. and might have reacted the way you suggest ... That, I suspect, would be quite amusing, as the moko'ed warrior may well not have known what to do next, (except lie on the ground unconscious) nor his companions, as they probably have been taught how to do a wero as part of a welcome - and not been taught what to do if the visitors respond in a different way than just standing there waiting to pick up the taki ...



Yep. Stories. Not always the truth, either. Depends who's telling them, eh?
We are defined by our pasts. But do we really need to be controlled by our pasts? Which is what I see happening with the grievance industry.

We do not need to be controlled by our past (just how possible that is is another interesting discussion).

For Māori, Pākehā are trying to define us by defining our past - but their "Māori past" is not our "Māori past" ... Just as we in some ways, define Pākehā by our versions of their past ..


Remove any preferential treatment, scrap the maori seats in parliament, and perhaps the maori party too, I mean we can't be together if we are treated differently can we?

Love to. Absolutely love to. I hope we can get to the point where they are not necessary ... At this moment in time they are necessary. In some ways they are more necessary as part of the internal Māori processes, of restoring a sense of personal identity ... and also gainign a sense of political power ... not to be the ones in power but to share power with our friends and relations.

But in a worst case senario, if the population trends continue and by around 2050 the majority population of this country will be Polynesian-based (Māori and Pasifika) then it may well be that there is a demand for specific "Pākehā" seats ... I won't be around to see it - but I would hate a reversal like that ... it's not moving forward ...

I do see a change in the young peopel tho' ... to many of them the diffrerences between Māori and Pākehā are not relevent ... it's not part of the world they live in and it's a good sign ...


Banditbandit I appreciate and respect you for the time you have spend recording this piece of history.

However with this respect, I also have some contempt as Maori like all the other NZer's have benefited from our colonising these lands,

Hmmm ... we did not ask to be colonised, and the benefits are by your definition. We also suffered all the negative effects of colonisation, and for many of our people these far outway the benefits - such as poor health, poor education, drug and alcohol abuse, violence .. and on and on ...


for you to determine that we are responsible for the Maori issues of the day,

The European colonizers are responsible. Yes, the major colonization happened in the past - however the colonizerd are still present and still acting like colonizers.

In a small example, I have a friend with twin daughters. One looks Pākehā and the other Māori - because they look different they were treated differnetly at primary school - and a couple of teachers refused to accept they were sister, let alone twins. Why, in the 21st Century are teachers in our schools treating Māori and Pākehā children differently ? That does place some responsibility on Pākehā for our issues .. and a responsibility for them to change ...


is to admit you take no responsibility for your extended family,

Recognising the origins of the problems determine the ways forward. As above, there needs to be change in the Pākehā world in relation to Māori - we are not responsible for making that change happen ... Pākehā are

There are things that we can do - and are doing - I have worked in education in the Māori world for the last 18 years, working to improve our people . I haven't been an active protestor for something like 30 years - as there is a role for such action, but it is very frustrating and in the end, I can achieve more "at the coal face" ... we are taking responsibility and working to move forward ... it's a slow and frustrating process at times ... just as frustrating for us as for you ... maybe more so for us because our own people can drive us to dispair ...


we as a country have acknowledged past atrocities and for a small country have in that acknowledgement given over much of NZ's wealth

Much of this nation's wealth ? I agree that the settlements are occuring, but as a quantum ? From the early 1990s to today (say over 14 years) the treaty settlements total less the One Billion Dollars. (about $700million) To put that in some kind of context (because, let's face it, to most of us One Billion Dollars is a huge amount of money) NZ's GDP in 2009 was around 132 billion dollars ... the treaty settlements have cost less than one percent of one year's GDP ...


for you to begin to right the pain, leaving the distribution to your peoples, this action of asking for compensation creates a division, how can we be one people when part of the partnership continually demands the country pays for its past mistakes, you in fact create the division.

Yes - I can see that. I have no idea what to do about it, except keep talking to each other ... I've frequently been involved in a similar argument .. I've come to the conclusion that its an argument because we have different ideas of what is "fair" ... not different as Māori and Pākehā, but as human beings - a different ideology - that's why some of us vote National, some Labour, some Greens and some Māori Party.

We do not ask that the country continually pays for its past mistakes ... (Yeah, OK, some of us seem to .. I argue with them as well ...) we ask for a place as equals with our Pāehā friends and relations - not as the violent, criminal, drug addicts of society ... not as the dumb ones who will not suceed in schools because we are lacking something ... who are destined to be manual labourers, shearers, prisoners ..

Having an economic base to work from is important ... money is important in today's world ...



I don't have the answers and I'm not sure you have either, different interpretations of history are just that, to-day our future is important, history but explains a little of what we are made off.

Be strong.

I believe history explains a lot of what we are made of today ... Pākehā New Zealand seems to forget it's history to easily ... possibly because the history of White New ZEaland is one of the shortest in the world - and people have been disassociated physically from their own past. But the slightly rebellious, anti-authoritian streak in NZ society coupled with a near classless society can be traced back to Europe, and the rejection of those social constructions by the white immigrants ...

The old "Colonial Cringe" came straight from that history ... as did the Tall Poppy syndrome ...

History influences today .. and the future .. we can only be free of that if we undertand that ..

[Banditbandit]

Being Scots I can relate to that - but I don't dwell on it, I just get on with my life...:yes:

The Scots did .. they now have their own parliament and an element of self-rule as a result ...

And how many years has it been since Wiliam Wallace and his men fought off Edward Longshanks and his armies ?

[MSTRS]

So much info - so hard to put together a coherent reply...

"Angry young men turning to..." I'd ask how much of that anger is learned from the parents?

"Twins who looked like one of each 'race' - treated differently..." To white NZers, this seems to be what Maori want...to be treated differently. I don't defend poor treatment - that's a given - but no-one who expects to be treated different has cause to complain when they are...

A story...in the 1920's, my NZ-born grandfather undertook a trek through the Ureweras. He met Rua, and was treated as an honoured guest, mutual respect and all that. (That respect for Maori stayed with him his entire life, much of which he spent living in Taupo long before it became a whitemans's mecca.)
If I did the same today, our friends the Tuhoe are likely to use the whitemans boomsticks on me and pop me in the umu...

[wysper]

Thoughts


You don’t need to blow out my candle to make yours burn more brightly.

or

Lighting your candle does not make mine burn any less brightly.

Humans seem to have an issue with this. They seem to think the lifting of another somehow lessens or takes something from them. If this belief was able to be changed then much progress could be made. People often resent others successes, hence the tall poppy syndrome. Seems to me it reveals a basic personal insecurity.

So when someone sees someone getting something, doesn’t matter what it is, training incentive, education program, settlement or whatever, they only look at it in terms of what the perceive it to be taken away from them. The opportunity for them to have or get something.

How can it be bad to give pride, self esteem, self sufficiency and self determination to someone?

On another point briefly, Banditbandit, when you say we did not ask to be colonised. That is true. A very valid point. But another point is I didn’t ask for you to be colonised either. I have been born in this country and love it. It is my home. My family is here. It is sad that others born in this country see me as a coloniser because I am white. I didn’t ask to be born white, I didn’t ask to be born in New Zealand. But I am white, I have been born in New Zealand, I am a Kiwi, my kids are Kiwi’s. I am proud to be a Kiwi/New Zealander or what ever you want to label me. As in the spirit of this thread Banditbandit, this is not an attack on you, just a chance to raise a point.

And finally for this post –

This one I think could get me in to trouble.

The whole one people, one nation thing. This I think is not the best idea.
For the sake of argument, lets just say we are all New Zealanders.
We are not ONE people. We are MANY people.
We are Maori
We are European
We are Scottish
We are Indian
We are Chinese
We are American
And on and on and on,
We are many colours

I happen to be white, my family tree has Scottish, English, Rhodesian, South Africa, Kiwi and lots of other nations blood running in various strengths through my veins. While they are all part of me, I am none of those, to me, I am a New Zealander, a Kiwi.

So maybe we ca be One Nation but many PEOPLE.

I am proud of the Maori history of our country. Even if I probably know not enough.
I am also proud of the history we are creating, the country we are creating. There will be growing pains. Our points of view will never be the same, but maybe our vision of the future can be similar enough that we can grow into a strong country. Maybe our future can be stronger for the pains of trying to heal the past.

[Banditbandit]

So much info - so hard to put together a coherent reply...

"Angry young men turning to..." I'd ask how much of that anger is learned from the parents?

Quite a lot ... some justified some not ...


"Twins who looked like one of each 'race' - treated differently..." To white NZers, this seems to be what Maori want...to be treated differently. I don't defend poor treatment - that's a given - but no-one who expects to be treated different has cause to complain when they are...

You seem to have missed the point of what I was saying (?) ... these are twins ... The white teacher expected the white looking one to be intelligent and succeed and the Maori looking one to be not so bright and successful ... based on how they looked ... that tells us a lot about the teacher's attitude towards her stduents and her expectations of different groups ...

What do you mean by "treated differently"? We expect to be treated as equals and as human beings - We already treat each other differently. Men say things to men they wouild never say to women, and vice versa ... bosses treat workers differently from other bosses ... adults treat children differently to other adults ..

I'm completely confused .. because we already treat each other differently - but when Māori suggest something that Pākehā think looks like different treatment Pākehā react negatively ? Is it because you don't want to treat us differently or because we are Māori ? To me it looks like because we are Māori ... whixch is racist - if it's because we are Māori then to expect us to act like Pākehā is colonsing behaviour



A story...in the 1920's, my NZ-born grandfather undertook a trek through the Ureweras. He met Rua, and was treated as an honoured guest, mutual respect and all that. (That respect for Maori stayed with him his entire life, much of which he spent living in Taupo long before it became a whitemans's mecca.)
If I did the same today, our friends the Tuhoe are likely to use the whitemans boomsticks on me and pop me in the umu...

Yes - today that would happen - very sad but true .. at least the broomstick bit .. not John Key for lunch ... we find such a comment quite insulting ... I won't beat you up for it ... but many of my friends would be deeply hurt and insulted .... and it's a worry that you think it is OK to make such a comment ..

[Banditbandit]

Thoughts


You don’t need to blow out my candle to make yours burn more brightly.

or

Lighting your candle does not make mine burn any less brightly.

Humans seem to have an issue with this. They seem to think the lifting of another somehow lessens or takes something from them. If this belief was able to be changed then much progress could be made. People often resent others successes, hence the tall poppy syndrome. Seems to me it reveals a basic personal insecurity.

So when someone sees someone getting something, doesn’t matter what it is, training incentive, education program, settlement or whatever, they only look at it in terms of what the perceive it to be taken away from them. The opportunity for them to have or get something.

How can it be bad to give pride, self esteem, self sufficiency and self determination to someone?

Totally agree ..


On another point briefly, Banditbandit, when you say we did not ask to be colonised. That is true. A very valid point. But another point is I didn’t ask for you to be colonised either. I have been born in this country and love it. It is my home. My family is here. It is sad that others born in this country see me as a coloniser because I am white.

I'm sorry - what I wrote was open to that interpretation. No, colonisers today are not white - they act like colonisers .. I have plenty of Pākehā friends who do not act like colonisers ...



I didn’t ask to be born white, I didn’t ask to be born in New Zealand. But I am white, I have been born in New Zealand, I am a Kiwi, my kids are Kiwi’s. I am proud to be a Kiwi/New Zealander or what ever you want to label me. As in the spirit of this thread Banditbandit, this is not an attack on you, just a chance to raise a point.

And finally for this post –

This one I think could get me in to trouble.

The whole one people, one nation thing. This I think is not the best idea.
For the sake of argument, lets just say we are all New Zealanders.
We are not ONE people. We are MANY people.
We are Maori
We are European
We are Scottish
We are Indian
We are Chinese
We are American
And on and on and on,
We are many colours

I happen to be white, my family tree has Scottish, English, Rhodesian, South Africa, Kiwi and lots of other nations blood running in various strengths through my veins. While they are all part of me, I am none of those, to me, I am a New Zealander, a Kiwi.

So maybe we can be One Nation but many PEOPLE.

I am proud of the Maori history of our country. Even if I probably know not enough.
I am also proud of the history we are creating, the country we are creating. There will be growing pains. Our points of view will never be the same, but maybe our vision of the future can be similar enough that we can grow into a strong country. Maybe our future can be stronger for the pains of trying to heal the past.

Agreed. Totally. I hope for the day when we can identify ourselves as New Zealanders and we all feel that includes us all ... I think it wil come because, as John Tamahere says "Race relations in this country aere being sorted out in the bedrooms of this country ..." Ever since the two groups met we have slept with each other ...

I was horrified when Paul Henry asked John Key if the next Prime Minister was going to look like a New Zealander ... Key should have exposed Henry's inherent racism by asking "What does a New Zealander look like?" There's a very good chance Henry would be thinking "white" even if he's not stupid enough to say it ... and of course, that whiteness is why many of my friends and family will not call themselves New Zealander ... that was a very public demonstration of why Māori do not identify as "New Zealanders".

Thank you for your post, which prompted more thoughts here.

[Toaster]

Speak for yourself . I was born here. I'm not European, I'm not Maori, I'm not Pakeha.
I am a New Zealander.

Rant end

Agreed. Now time to go ride.....:scooter:

[MSTRS]

My wife is a teacher aide at a predominantly white, decile 9 school. There are little shits of most colours there, but the ones with the worst attitudes are...you guessed it.
Now, these are kids just out of intermediate. They haven't had enough life experience to have developed such attitudes all by themselves. It's been 'nurtured' into them. It goes without saying that when the parents are called, the response is "Fuck off, honky. Don't tell my kid how to behave" or there IS no response.

I live in a lower, middle class (ha!) street, with about 70 houses in it. I think there are 2 Maori families living in this street. If there is ever a cop car parked on the street, guess what house/s they are outside. Same 2 houses that often have boozy parties, lots of noise and fights in the front yards. To be fair, most of the people at one of those houses have jobs.
There used to be a third. It was a P house. Which was too badly contaminated to be repaired. 2 kids lived in that house, and slept next to the equipment. I know this, because those kids went to the local intermediate where my wife was doing what she now does at a high school.

This sort of thing saddens me, because I also know quite a few very fine Maoris, who are just ordinary people. Proud to be who they are. Proud of their heritage. Hard working. Honest. They don't try to foist their culture on anyone. They also don't believe the world owes them.

I try not to stereotype (I have a great deal of Scots in me, and I'm tighter than a snapper's arsehole) - I would rather treat people as I find them and as I'd like to be treated. But can be very hard to see past the exterior and not have 'certain expectations' of what any particular person is like.


Yes - today that would happen - very sad but true .. at least the broomstick bit .. not John Key for lunch ... we find such a comment quite insulting ... I won't beat you up for it ... but many of my friends would be deeply hurt and insulted .... and it's a worry that you think it is OK to make such a comment ..
I don't follow. I am not likely to be made welcome, or even tolerated. I am likely to be harmed. Perhaps I was a bit frivolous with the umu comment - apologies if that offended. Maybe I should mention that until I had left high school, I don't think I'd even met a Maori. "They" all lived 'somewhere in the country, but not here'. Apart from stick games and poi in primary school culture class, my only exposure was Rod Derrett and his record, Puha and Pakeha. Oh, and being mugged by a pack of young Maori thugs at the age of 17. These things tend to stick...

[MSTRS]

I hope for the day when we can identify ourselves as New Zealanders and we all feel that includes us all ...

+1. I identify as NZer. I don't like the us and them mentality that prevails. But is there a way past it? As long as accidents of birth put us in one camp or the other (it's more than 2 camps, but for simplicity's sake...) and there are separate schools, scholarships etc, becoming one is a pipe dream. Isn't it?

[Banditbandit]

My wife is a teacher aide at a predominantly white, decile 9 school. There are little shits of most colours there, but the ones with the worst attitudes are...you guessed it.
Now, these are kids just out of intermediate. They haven't had enough life experience to have developed such attitudes all by themselves. It's been 'nurtured' into them. It goes without saying that when the parents are called, the response is "Fuck off, honky. Don't tell my kid how to behave" or there IS no response.

Yes. Seen it. That's bad .. a mis-use or misunderstanding (or both) of what we are talking about ... this is a result of colonization - but to continue to blame white people for the bad behaviour of themselves and children is not acceptable ..


I live in a lower, middle class (ha!) street, with about 70 houses in it. I think there are 2 Maori families living in this street. If there is ever a cop car parked on the street, guess what house/s they are outside. Same 2 houses that often have boozy parties, lots of noise and fights in the front yards. To be fair, most of the people at one of those houses have jobs.
There used to be a third. It was a P house. Which was too badly contaminated to be repaired. 2 kids lived in that house, and slept next to the equipment. I know this, because those kids went to the local intermediate where my wife was doing what she now does at a high school.

This sort of thing saddens me, because I also know quite a few very fine Maoris, who are just ordinary people. Proud to be who they are. Proud of their heritage. Hard working. Honest. They don't try to foist their culture on anyone. They also don't believe the world owes them.

Yes, it saddens us too. We know it is a result of colonization .. but we also know that is not a reason, not an excuse .. and it doesn't abrograte individual responsibility ..


I try not to stereotype (I have a great deal of Scots in me, and I'm tighter than a snapper's arsehole) -

We all do - it's a human thing .. and nearly impossible to make sesne of our world with out doing it ... However there are positive and negstive stereotyping ...


I would rather treat people as I find them and as I'd like to be treated. But can be very hard to see past the exterior and not have 'certain expectations' of what any particular person is like.


I don't follow. I am not likely to be made welcome, or even tolerated. I am likely to be harmed. Perhaps I was a bit frivolous with the umu comment - apologies if that offended. Maybe I should mention that until I had left high school, I don't think I'd even met a Maori. "They" all lived 'somewhere in the country, but not here'. Apart from stick games and poi in primary school culture class, my only exposure was Rod Derrett and his record, Puha and Pakeha. Oh, and being mugged by a pack of young Maori thugs at the age of 17. These things tend to stick...

Yes, unfortunately we have reached a state where in some areas, such as Tuhoe, Pākehā are looked on in the first instance with suspicion, distrrust and even met with violence ... many of us wish that was not the case .. but gfiven recent events in Tuhoe in particular it's understadnable, if wrong ..


+1. I identify as NZer. I don't like the us and them mentality that prevails. But is there a way past it? As long as accidents of birth put us in one camp or the other (it's more than 2 camps, but for simplicity's sake...) and there are separate schools, scholarships etc, becoming one is a pipe dream. Isn't it?

No, I hope it's not a pipedream ... I've invested a lot of time and effort over the years in aiming for that pipedream ... I may never live to see it .. but I hope it comes .. After all, the Celts learnt to live with the Romans, then the Saxons, the Angles, Normans .. and now are considered Anglo-Saxon ... One people ?

[admenk]

After all, the Celts learnt to live with the Romans, then the Saxons, the Angles, Normans .. and now are considered Anglo-Saxon ... One people ?

I think you'll find lots Welsh, Scots and Irish would still consider themselves Celtic, as well as some Cornish. I see what you're saying though.

It's a bit like the "British" tag. Many English people (not all) would call themselves British, but I suspect a lower % of Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish would. One argument as to why that happens, is that if you're from the dominant group, it's easier for you to group everyone in as one and say let's all get on with it - as that usually means conforming to the dominant group's views and way of life (and version of history!)

My Dad is Welsh and my mum is English, and I personaly just say I'm British. However, if I lived a few hundred years ago, when the wars between the two countries were still remembered and feelings were raw, I might have had a very different view on it.

My own view is that it's fine to call yourself whatever you think is appropriate, and respect others who do the same. The world would be a very boring (if not more peaceful) place if we were all the same. Our differences can be a positive thing, as long as we look at them in that way.

[MSTRS]

After all, the Celts learnt to live with the Romans, then the Saxons, the Angles, Normans .. and now are considered Anglo-Saxon ... One people ?

I don't think the Celts did learn to live with the Romans. Hadrian built a wall...
The wall was more a token, to say we'll stay this side and you stay that.
As for the rest, isn't it more a case of friendly rivalry between say the Scots and the English? Like between NZ and Oz. We 'hate' each other, but tend to stand together when a 3rd party pokes its nose in (except the US, of course...)

I guess at the end of the day, we are all a bit tribal. We'll fuss and argue and fight with the other tribes, but we'll unite against a common foe. Not so different, in some ways, eh?

[mashman]

As for the rest, isn't it more a case of friendly rivalry between say the Scots and the English? Like between NZ and Oz. We 'hate' each other, but tend to stand together when a 3rd party pokes its nose in (except the US, of course...)


Unfortunately only when it suits. This from an Englishman having spent 20 years growing up in Scotland. There's fuck all that's rational about the where and when the "racism" rears its ugly head... Fortunately for me, my mates would encourage me to leave the pub when the "nationalists" were baying for blood :yes:...



I guess at the end of the day, we are all a bit tribal. We'll fuss and argue and fight with the other tribes, but we'll unite against a common foe. Not so different, in some ways, eh?

You mean the REAL white mother fuckers?

[Banditbandit]

I don't think the Celts did learn to live with the Romans. Hadrian built a wall...
The wall was more a token, to say we'll stay this side and you stay that.

The wall was to keep the cattle raiding Picts out ... at least to stop them easily getting the catrtrle back across the wall .. The rest of the countrry was already full of Celts - too late ..



As for the rest, isn't it more a case of friendly rivalry between say the Scots and the English? Like between NZ and Oz. We 'hate' each other, but tend to stand together when a 3rd party pokes its nose in (except the US, of course...)

Dunno - never been there .. but the battles between Willam Wallace and Edward Longshanks .. between the Highlanders, lead by Seamus the Shit and the English were certainly more than friendly rivallry ...


I guess at the end of the day, we are all a bit tribal. We'll fuss and argue and fight with the other tribes, but we'll unite against a common foe. Not so different, in some ways, eh?

That's about right ..

[retro asian]

Peters was right all along...

[MSTRS]

The wall was to keep the cattle raiding Picts out ... at least to stop them easily getting the cattle back across the wall .. The rest of the countrry was already full of Celts - too late ..

Dunno - never been there .. but the battles between Willam Wallace and Edward Longshanks .. between the Highlanders, lead by Seamus the Shit and the English were certainly more than friendly rivallry ...


Have heard of the Picts. Never studied them, but thought they were just part of the Scottish Celts. They were the ones who painted themselves blue, were they not? What is known as 'woald' or 'woad'. As shown in Braveheart.

Edward Longshanks was a prick. The Scots were right to fight him. And they gave him a right old fright too. Although, ultimately, old Eddy boy did win. Sort of. Since wars continued to be fought for hundreds of years, with the English usually winning. So the Scottish hatred of the English continues to this day, albeit in a much watered-down form. But even then, it's complicated. My mother is aye frae Glasgie...she does not like the poms...but she is a lowlander, and they are hated by the highlanders as being English sympathisers. Or something.

[scracha]

The wall was to keep the cattle raiding Picts out ... at least to stop them easily getting the catrtrle back across the wall .. The rest of the countrry was already full of Celts - too late ..


Surely you mean Antonine's wall?

Can we bring religion into this thread too?

[Berries]

It's a bit like the "British" tag. Many English people (not all) would call themselves British, but I suspect a lower % of Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish would. One argument as to why that happens, is that if you're from the dominant group, it's easier for you to group everyone in as one and say let's all get on with it - as that usually means conforming to the dominant group's views and way of life (and version of history!)
Not the Scottish thread eh ? I was born and raised in Nottingham. Spent a few years overseas and then ended up in Aberdeen for six years. I might have considered myself British before then but the overt racism I put up with certainly changed that. Probably not helped by the fact Braveheart came out and the SNP were doing well at the time. Back then, early to mid 90's, there were pubs in Inverness that wouldn't serve English people. Fuck them, and fuck their fucking bagpipes. A mate of mine got thrown off a bridge for wearing an England rugby shirt for Christs sake. He was a twat mind. How the hell I ended up in McDunedin I don't know.

Some great people in Scotland, but I'll call myself English thank you very much. If they are going to hold on to shit from that long ago I really can't deal with it. A bit like how I see the situation in NZ to be honest.

Edit - The drugs were good but:doobey:

[jonbuoy]

Only the ones with a chip on their shoulder, some kiwis have a chip on their shoulder about the "poms", some have one about the Aussies or anyone not from their rugby province. Some Maoris have a chip about the white Kiwis. MOST people have better things to worry about, knuckle down and get on with life. Griping about history long gone isn´t going to help.

[marty]

Not the Scottish thread eh ?


You needed to be a round a few years ago to understand....

[MSTRS]

If they are going to hold on to shit from that long ago I really can't deal with it.



Another wee story. This one relates to highland vs lowlanders...

My mother left Glasgow in 1956 and came to NZ. She went back with my father and youngest sister (aged 7 at the time) in 1983. They did some travelling around and stayed in B'n'Bs. One night they pulled up outside one in the north, and my father went to sort out a room or two. No problem. Went back out to the car for mother, sister and bags and in they went. The woman greeted the two girls most warmly. And then my mother spoke.
Well, fuck me. Suddenly, it wasn't convenient, the little girl wouldn't be comfortable, they'd run out of porridge, other people were coming, whatever. Almost literally pushed out the door. Slam!!
I think they slept in the car, because that would be the reception for anyone from Glasgow.

So, young Berries, don't feel you are special...
But please do enjoy TV, Whisky, waterproof raincoats, sealed roads...

[Banditbandit]

Banditbandit , I commend you for your work in this thread but I confess to being saddened by the overall tone. Much as you profess to wanting a utopian future where we all march on as one Nation in harmony (me too) your viewpoint/Perspective was quite clearly a defensive and accusatory one.

Who is this 'You' you frequently allude to, 'You gave us a nail' 'you gave us VD' 'you took from us'. You seem very biased and separatist in your opinions, you quote facts but in reality they are facts as you see them or as you have heard them.You weren't there and neither was anyone else alive Today.In all honesty, if I was in your place, I too would be fighting to be heard and probably fighting to right the injustices of the past but in the real world, the world where we all have a future together, constantly playing the game of blame will only hold any real unification of peoples back.

I'm English, I recently lost a German friend, I never asked but his Father could have been among the ones that occupied/stole my country from me, his uncle could have been amongst the ones that imprisoned my uncle in a POW camp for 5 years his brother could be responsible for bombing the crap out of my Nana's Street. I didn't blame, accuse or ram 'facts' of oppression and injustice down his throat. He wasn't to blame, he owed me no apology, he wasn't there, he wasn't born.


I can't and wont justify the actions of the people that came before me but equally I will not be held accountable for those actions either. I see huge division between the viewpoints of Maori and other New Zealanders, more than I had ever imagined before I came here, it's a sad state of affairs and whilst people continue to be as one sided as you (not just you, the opposition as well) I don't see any truly united NZ in my Crystal ball, sadly.

Thank you for the opportunity to respond. It’s taken me a couple of days to think about what I want to say.

First off all, I did try to point out that the use of the first person/second person plural was never intended as a separatist of accusatory approach. It’s a typically Māori way of speaking/writing and I am aware of how it comes across to Pākehā. I do not blame anyone living for the past. We not responsible for the actions of our ancestors (and mine are both Māori and Pākehā). The past explains a lot of today and therefore must be the place to start when deciding how to move forward. However we are not responsible for the past, only for the present and the future. I am trying to explain how we can move forward as an “Us”, not an “Us” and “Them”. An “Us” as New Zealanders.

So - let me try to frame this in third person terms.

Māori have always integrated the people who came here into their groups. Paerangi integrated the people of Aotea waka, and changed the name of the group to Te Ati Haunui-a-Paparangi. When the Pākehā sailed over the horizon, it was no different. They were welcomed for the benefits they could bring. They were given land, supported with food and other things, and even, in our case, defended from attack.
Form the Pākehā perspective the goal was assimilation of Māori into Pākehā culture – Māori were culturally, socially and intellectually to become brown-skinned Pākehā. To be a New Zealander was to be like a Pākehā.

But Māori intentions were something different. Māori did not wish Pākehā to become Māori. Nor did Māori expect to remain the same. The Pākehā brought a new world, and Māori wanted it. Just as Paerangi wanted the new things, ways of doing things, ways of being that Aotea waka brought. All arrivals have brought benefits to this country and Māori can see that. From a Māori perspective, the arrival of the Pākehā was nothing new – only the newness’ of the people who actually arrived. (I hope that all makes sense.)

Maori knew the world had become different and the new world and new peoples would be different. Pākehā did not. The ancestors thought they were creating a little slice of England in the South Seas.

I’ve lived in both worlds, and, from my perspective, Pākehā have not changed that much. Pākehā still expect Māori to behave and act like brown-skinned Pākehā. Māori do not expect Pākehā to behave like white skinned Māori.

Māori still see Pākehā as friends and relations – and that’s becoming literally true. Many of the older racist Pākehā I know are struggling to come to grips with the fact that they have brown-skinned grandchildren, whom they love dearly, but who are clearly from a group of people they have despised and put down all their lives.

These people are struggling to come to grips with meeting their sons and daughters partner’s parents – who are from the group they have despised all their lives, and finding them just as human as they are ... and they are learning to cope in Māori environments. They have found that they are not hated for being Pākehā as they have hated for being Māori ...

Many Pākehā have never learnt about Māori culture – either because it was not taught in schools, because the need has never arisen. But the opportunities have always been there. Māori have been forced to learn Pākehā ways. It’s not so much that we did not want to – but that we were forced – all human beings hate being forced ...

This is wandering a bit ...

Pākehā want Māori to become one people on Pākehā terms – usually “One People” means white people. Frequently, when students have said “Why can’t we be one people?” My answer has been “Yes. There are two people’s in this country – Māori and Pākehā – so let’s all be Māori.” The most common response back has been “That’s not what I meant” ... I knew that ... I’m just forcing them to confront their own ideas and what they mean ... and here I'm tryinjg to get you to examine what you mean by "One People" Is it a Pākehā people?


So to Māori “One People” is neither Māori nor Pākehā ... it’s an acceptance of both, and a hope that the future will combine the best of both worlds, for the benefit of all ... This is the Māori ideal.

Now – part of the problem is that when we talk about “Oneness” is it culture or anything else, we think of the culture as a unity. In reality it is not. There are many Pākehā New Zealanders who, when placed in a Pākehā cultural context have no idea what is happening or how to behave appropriately. Take a Westie and place him in a Remuera dinner party – and there’s a good chance they’ll be out of their depth and looked on as an “interesting novelty” or “colourful”., Reverse the situations and the Remueraite becomes a “snob” ... you get the picture.

Place some Māori on marae and they will be just as lost as many Pākehā (seen it) ...
There’s upper class culture and working class culture in NZ – Māori and Pākehā drink side by side in working class pubs ... There’s the cultures of different corporations – there’s the culture of Rugby Clubs, of Motorcycle Clubs, of chess and debating clubs – all are different. And that is all acceptable.

Why then when we talk of Māori and Pākehā culture is it so different? WE hjave many may different cultural situations in our country, and we don't all live in them all. Placing people in foreign cultural situations, whether they are situations within their overall culture, but strange to them, or from the culture of a different ethnic group – the feelings, meanings and reactions are the same ...

"One People" does not have to mean "One Culture" .. it doesn't now ... Māori accept difference - and deal with it .. Pākehā seem to deal with it by trying the change people and reduce the difference ... but only across ethnic groups ... Pākehā accept without question differences in cultural situations within their European-derived cultures ...

I hope this is making sense ... I think I’ll stop there for now ..

[Dean]

Some interesting stuff about where we came from.

We came from Tahiti and apparently they say it is our Hawaiiki our mystical homeland. I wouldnt mind moving down there and own some land find a nice wahine n settle down! Tahiti is beleived to be the birth of the Tattoo or (tatou) for Maori. Heres a Tahitan warrior.

Another interesting Island we came from is the Marquesan Islands amazingly beautiful place in French Polynesia. It is beleived here is the birth of the Marae, see pic.

And thought I might end things off with a comparrison with an Ancient Maori stone house to a Celtic Beehive. The narrow doorways, beehive like shape.

[Banditbandit]

Not the Scottish thread eh ? I was born and raised in Nottingham. Spent a few years overseas and then ended up in Aberdeen for six years. I might have considered myself British before then but the overt racism I put up with certainly changed that. Probably not helped by the fact Braveheart came out and the SNP were doing well at the time. Back then, early to mid 90's, there were pubs in Inverness that wouldn't serve English people. Fuck them, and fuck their fucking bagpipes. A mate of mine got thrown off a bridge for wearing an England rugby shirt for Christs sake. He was a twat mind. How the hell I ended up in McDunedin I don't know.

Some great people in Scotland, but I'll call myself English thank you very much. If they are going to hold on to shit from that long ago I really can't deal with it. A bit like how I see the situation in NZ to be honest.

Edit - The drugs were good but:doobey:

I find your treatment by the scots to be reprehensible - and unfortunately I do know Māori groups who would treat you the same way. I also now Pākehā groups who would treat Māori the same way for just being Māori. That is not acceptable from either side and I would have hoped we would get over it. But we have not.

These groups I know of do not include the Māori politically active - who are heard on the national stage to make a point - but do not treat individuals badly because of their ethnic group. The activists who truly live by Maori values live by "What is the most important thing in the world? It is people, People, People ..." and we are all people

[MSTRS]

Playing Devil's Advocate here...

I understand you to be saying that each group wanted something from the other.
Maori wanted from the incomers, things that Maori saw as benefitting their tribe (say). Muskets, clothes, blankets, baubles, superior boats...
The settlers wanted the Maori's land.

The concept of ownership got in the way. And still does.

[jonbuoy]

Thank you for the opportunity to respond. It’s taken me a couple of days to think about what I want to say.

First off all, I did try to point out that the use of the first person/second person plural was never intended as a separatist of accusatory approach. It’s a typically Māori way of speaking/writing and I am aware of how it comes across to Pākehā. I do not blame anyone living for the past. We not responsible for the actions of our ancestors (and mine are both Māori and Pākehā). The past explains a lot of today and therefore must be the place to start when deciding how to move forward. However we are not responsible for the past, only for the present and the future. I am trying to explain how we can move forward as an “Us”, not an “Us” and “Them”. An “Us” as New Zealanders.

So - let me try to frame this in third person terms.

Māori have always integrated the people who came here into their groups. Paerangi integrated the people of Aotea waka, and changed the name of the group to Te Ati Haunui-a-Paparangi. When the Pākehā sailed over the horizon, it was no different. They were welcomed for the benefits they could bring. They were given land, supported with food and other things, and even, in our case, defended from attack.
Form the Pākehā perspective the goal was assimilation of Māori into Pākehā culture – Māori were culturally, socially and intellectually to become brown-skinned Pākehā. To be a New Zealander was to be like a Pākehā.

But Māori intentions were something different. Māori did not wish Pākehā to become Māori. Nor did Māori expect to remain the same. The Pākehā brought a new world, and Māori wanted it. Just as Paerangi wanted the new things, ways of doing things, ways of being that Aotea waka brought. All arrivals have brought benefits to this country and Māori can see that. From a Māori perspective, the arrival of the Pākehā was nothing new – only the newness’ of the people who actually arrived. (I hope that all makes sense.)

Maori knew the world had become different and the new world and new peoples would be different. Pākehā did not. The ancestors thought they were creating a little slice of England in the South Seas.

I’ve lived in both worlds, and, from my perspective, Pākehā have not changed that much. Pākehā still expect Māori to behave and act like brown-skinned Pākehā. Māori do not expect Pākehā to behave like white skinned Māori.

Māori still see Pākehā as friends and relations – and that’s becoming literally true. Many of the older racist Pākehā I know are struggling to come to grips with the fact that they have brown-skinned grandchildren, whom they love dearly, but who are clearly from a group of people they have despised and put down all their lives.

These people are struggling to come to grips with meeting their sons and daughters partner’s parents – who are from the group they have despised all their lives, and finding them just as human as they are ... and they are learning to cope in Māori environments. They have found that they are not hated for being Pākehā as they have hated for being Māori ...

Many Pākehā have never learnt about Māori culture – either because it was not taught in schools, because the need has never arisen. But the opportunities have always been there. Māori have been forced to learn Pākehā ways. It’s not so much that we did not want to – but that we were forced – all human beings hate being forced ...

This is wandering a bit ...

Pākehā want Māori to become one people on Pākehā terms – usually “One People” means white people. Frequently, when students have said “Why can’t we be one people?” My answer has been “Yes. There are two people’s in this country – Māori and Pākehā – so let’s all be Māori.” The most common response back has been “That’s not what I meant” ... I knew that ... I’m just forcing them to confront their own ideas and what they mean ... and here I'm tryinjg to get you to examine what you mean by "One People" Is it a Pākehā people?


So to Māori “One People” is neither Māori nor Pākehā ... it’s an acceptance of both, and a hope that the future will combine the best of both worlds, for the benefit of all ... This is the Māori ideal.

Now – part of the problem is that when we talk about “Oneness” is it culture or anything else, we think of the culture as a unity. In reality it is not. There are many Pākehā New Zealanders who, when placed in a Pākehā cultural context have no idea what is happening or how to behave appropriately. Take a Westie and place him in a Remuera dinner party – and there’s a good chance they’ll be out of their depth and looked on as an “interesting novelty” or “colourful”., Reverse the situations and the Remueraite becomes a “snob” ... you get the picture.

Place some Māori on marae and they will be just as lost as many Pākehā (seen it) ...
There’s upper class culture and working class culture in NZ – Māori and Pākehā drink side by side in working class pubs ... There’s the cultures of different corporations – there’s the culture of Rugby Clubs, of Motorcycle Clubs, of chess and debating clubs – all are different. And that is all acceptable.

Why then when we talk of Māori and Pākehā culture is it so different? WE hjave many may different cultural situations in our country, and we don't all live in them all. Placing people in foreign cultural situations, whether they are situations within their overall culture, but strange to them, or from the culture of a different ethnic group – the feelings, meanings and reactions are the same ...

"One People" does not have to mean "One Culture" .. it doesn't now ... Māori accept difference - and deal with it .. Pākehā seem to deal with it by trying the change people and reduce the difference ... but only across ethnic groups ... Pākehā accept without question differences in cultural situations within their European-derived cultures ...

I hope this is making sense ... I think I’ll stop there for now ..

Don´t you think its time to move on? If the horrors committed by all sides in the first and second world wars can be put behind why can´t the treaty and other issues be put to bed?

[phill-k]

This thread started because of a comments in another thread about Pike River.

At the service yesterday one of the ministers uttered some words of wisdom which applies as much to this discussions as the their purpose yesterday.

I don't remember them exactly but when watching the service it struck me as been so relevant to this discussion and to the perceived issues you talk about.

We as a people can not change our history, however we can have an influence on the future.

Banditbandit you are obviously of some academic bent, you have narrated your version of your ancestors history well, however you continually speak of separatism, making statements about what Maori want, how Maori want Pakaha to be, this is New Zealand, we are New Zealanders, Maori, Pakaha, Asian, European, if you have NZ citizenship you are a NZer, we are Governed under the Westminster System, have laws, and responsibilities, yet you talk as if you wish to see some sort of parallel system exclusively for Maori, at many universities you already have Maori Specific aspects, you have had your language formally recognized, you are receiving large payments from NZ's government because of past injustices, you stated less than 800million dollars had been paid, but Tainui settlement was almost that, you have exclusive fisheries quota, you have exclusive rights to breech the conservation limits set to preserve our fish stocks, you benefit from our Hospitals, Education, Social Services, Housing, yet you still wish for more. AS long as your people hang onto the feelings of injustice you believe the colonisers have dealt you and hold us accountable for our ancestors sins, we will not move forward living in what is paradise and being NZers' who are accepting of each's own culture. We have accepted that Maori were done wrong in early times, we have negotiated settlements and continue to do so, we recognise your pain, but you keep rubbing salt in those ancient wounds making them flare up again and again, this prevents the very harmony you seem to crave. I truly believe that most NZers' are in fact respectful of your unique culture, and do not hold any form of animosity towards Maori, however some of your own, through their actions do you no justice. But that will always be.
A question for you to consider answering - Tell me what it is that Maori want, be specific, don't refer to righting past wrongs, but tell me what Maori want as we as NZers' go forward in the 21st century Kea Kaha

[admenk]

Don´t you think its time to move on? If the horrors committed by all sides in the first and second world wars can be put behind why can´t the treaty and other issues be put to bed?

I assume some would argue that all the current treaty negotiations are doing just that.

[Bald Eagle]

A question for you to consider answering - Tell me what it is that Maori want, be specific, don't refer to righting past wrongs, but tell me what Maori want as we as NZers' go forward in the 21st century Kea Kaha

Well said.

[Swoop]

Kea Kaha
Do you mean Kia Kaha?

[phill-k]

Do you mean Kia Kaha?

I could say that from where "we" come from we don't use the i, but then it could also be that I posted in a hurry and didn't proof read the post, but I'm sure you all get what I meant.

[Swoop]

I could say that from where "we" come from we don't use the i, but then it could also be that I posted in a hurry and didn't proof read the post, but I'm sure you all get what I meant.
So, not from Korea and referring to a brand of car then?:innocent:

[phill-k]

So, not from Korea and referring to a brand of car then?:innocent:

Don't you get me going on our friends from the north :angry:

[avgas]

OK, I'll roll the first dice; - what was so unattractive with Hawaiiki (I think that's what it was called) to cause people to climb aboard a big-arsed canoe and bugger off for thousands of miles across the sea to EnnZedd?
And how did they not hit all the other islands on the way down?

[Berries]

So, young Berries, don't feel you are special...
But please do enjoy TV, Whisky, waterproof raincoats, sealed roads...
I’ll give you the whisky, and butteries and perhaps the deep fried Mars bar, the rest were inventions by people who just happened to be Scottish. I don’t have a problem with the Scots, it was just the few who hang on to crap from centuries ago. Every country has them, some more than others.

PS – any news on when decent TV and sealed roads will make it to NZ ?

[marty]

Do you mean Kia Kaha?


It doesn't matter at NCEA, and for a language that was not written, as long as it sounds right, does it really matter?

[ynot slow]

As an aside,why the hell were we taught other countries' history at school and not our own,well back when I was at both primary and secondary,we got the tokin (read govt speil from education board)but very minimal.

My rant with a born again maori(like them christians,holier than thou)one afternoon in Hawera in my local bar,we had a good debate,no swearing,except he did get louder and made a dick of himself,when I kept asking show me the fine print on treaty.My ignorant on these things is that the wording was passed down verbally from family to family,and we all know the story can change(for better or worse).I asked him if he was such an authority on maori land in the naki,where the armed constabulary stables were in the town,after all we had a few significant areas of history around the area,he dodged the subject as usual and did the "we wus robbed"crap,and said not important,to which I said ah well your loss and learn history,ironically the stables built around 1870 ish were on my grandparents land.

[Shadowjack]

As an aside,why the hell were we taught other countries' history at school and not our own,well back when I was at both primary and secondary,we got the tokin (read govt speil from education board)but very minimal.
Yes, quite.
After coming through the education system in the 60's and 70's, I have asked myself the same question.

The answer seems to be that to have presented NZ history in any sort of factual manner would have been to admit/recognise that "other New Zealanders" prosperity in New Zealand has been largely acquired on the back of dis-enfranchisement of Iwi from the political, social, financial, and educational processes. And from there, the possibilities for recognising an alternative way forward might be a bit frightening for those that hold the reins in this country...

[Banditbandit]

Ata marie

Sorry people, I've been tied up in a tangi for a kaumatua since Friday morning .. just read up to date.

Wuill have a think and get back to you.

[phill-k]

Ata marie

Sorry people, I've been tied up in a tangi for a kaumatua since Friday morning .. just read up to date.

Wuill have a think and get back to you.

Thank You for the update, now I would like to quote myself from an earlier post

"Tell me what it is that Maori want, be specific, don't refer to righting past wrongs, but tell me what Maori want as we as NZers' go forward in the 21st century"

I look forward to furthering my understanding from your reply

[Bald Eagle]

Thank You for the update, now I would like to quote myself from an earlier post

"Tell me what it is that Maori want, be specific, don't refer to righting past wrongs, but tell me what Maori want as we as NZers' go forward in the 21st century"

I look forward to furthering my understanding from your reply


Looks like that question was a bit too hard then

[Dean]

Looks like that question was a bit too hard then

Too right mate, asking for one single Maori to speak on behalf of all the entire hundreds of thousands that belong to various tribes with various affairs to be specific on what 'we' all want as we progress towards the future - yeh..... its a bit hard aye

[MSTRS]

No. It's not hard. Generalities are all that were asked for.
I suppose the difficulty arises in so far as most Maori couldn't give a toss about getting 'their land' back, or self-rule, or whatever. Oh, I'm sure they pay lip service to the concept, but the reality is they are quite happy just the way they are - which could be anything from gainfully employed to 3rd generation bludger...

[Banditbandit]

Looks like that question was a bit too hard then

NOT at all ... formulated a response .. trying to find time to post it ... too busy leading up to Xmas ...

[Banditbandit]

No. It's not hard. Generalities are all that were asked for.
I suppose the difficulty arises in so far as most Maori couldn't give a toss about getting 'their land' back, or self-rule, or whatever. Oh, I'm sure they pay lip service to the concept, but the reality is they are quite happy just the way they are - which could be anything from gainfully employed to 3rd generation bludger...

See we don't want to talk in generalities - that's a Pākehā way ...

And there are many many Pākehā 3rd generation bludgers too ...

[Banditbandit]

Too right mate, asking for one single Maori to speak on behalf of all the entire hundreds of thousands that belong to various tribes with various affairs to be specific on what 'we' all want as we progress towards the future - yeh..... its a bit hard aye

Yeah ... how to respond to that demand was part of my hold up .. thanks for doing it for me ...

[Dean]

Generalities are all that were asked for...
... Are you sure?

"Tell me what it is that Maori want, be specific."

[MSTRS]

And there are many many Pākehā 3rd generation bludgers too ...
Yep. Never said there wasn't. But we are talking things Maori here, so I only mentioned Maori. Nor was I trying to imply anything...


... Are you sure?
:shit::Oops:
In which case, I think I might agree with you, to the extent that different tribes may want different tings. Not only that, but IF they get (whatever), I'm sure each tribe will want to do different things with the land, money, 'rights', whatever.

[Dean]

Incase you guys havent seen this video yet, this seems to be the emerging new Metro Maori tm generation movement. Im glad that its not all the gang related stuff.

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[avgas]

And there are many many Pākehā 3rd generation bludgers too ...
If you give me a hand I'm sure between us we could load them on a boat out of here :)

[avgas]

Holy Fuck - DEAN IS BACK!!!!
http://www.indebraendt.dk/images/motivators/holy_fuck.jpg

[Bikemad]

Many thanks and respect to BB for your posts and responses.......i have actually enjoyed reading this thread a lot..........feel a little more informed on the topic but have to say as long as Maori have racist scum like the harawiras pretending to represent the average Maori....... i for one wont be listening to anything they have to say..........i still cant believe the Maori party got Titiwhai Harawira to do a party political broadcast for them in the last elections...........in case no-one remembers anymore....this woman was responsible for the beating and torture of a mentally ill 14 year old boy in her care at what was the Maori psyc unit at carrington years ago.....82-83 from memory..........she got 2 years i think.......shamefull
how would Maori react if Keith Hancock,who ripped off lion foundation,or Mark Lyons,property developer millionaire turned P head fronted an ad for the national party
I do however believe Maori on the whole get a rough deal from the media as they love a good story to sell and nothing sells better than controversy
There was a doco on a couple of years ago about the Maori Businesswoman of whatever year it was.....Coral edmundson???........she had KT footwear............the doco somewhat demonstrated what i felt was the best and the worst of Maori psyc....the worst
being...... the dropkicks she gave the chance of a job who constantly let her down the moment the pay packet was handed over......one guy had never worked a friday his entire employment...........and the best being her good friend and workmate whos relatives drove up on mass from Taranaki to help out aunties friend Coral,for no money........they even brought their own food with them, to help get a big shoe order out and help save the company.......cos the employees wouldnt...........i thought that was magic and sadly this is a side of Maoridom the media would have no interest in reporting i suspect
I do have one question for you BB as you are probably the most informed person i have come across regarding Maori info and i truely mean no offence but somethings been bugging me for a while
as i understand it Kamate Kamate was conceived by Te Rauparaha as he hid from rival Maori/soldiers beneath a wahines skirts as she tended a kumara pit...........So......My question being how did it make the jump from,and again no offence intended here,a guy hiding under a womans skirt......to the haka we see today.sorry i just dont get it..........when was it first actually used as the challenge we see today.

[Hitcher]

There are dangers about making sweeping generalisations about anybody based on their gender, age, country of origin, religion, ethnicity, income level, sexual orientation, level of education and their parents' marital status.

Choice of motorcycle, however, is a completely different proposition. This is, after all, a site for motorcyclists.

[phill-k]

I do have one question for you BB as you are probably the most informed person i have come across regarding Maori info and i truely mean no offence but somethings been bugging me for a while
as i understand it Kamate Kamate was conceived by Te Rauparaha as he hid from rival Maori/soldiers beneath a wahines skirts as she tended a kumara pit...........So......My question being how did it make the jump from,and again no offence intended here,a guy hiding under a womans skirt......to the haka we see today.sorry i just dont get it..........when was it first actually used as the challenge we see today.

Bloody easy answer to that its quite fitting really, the way our allblacks play rugby nowadays its like they have their heads up someones arse

Seriously though I actually find the way the haka is performed by all and sundry a bit offencive, once upon a time the allblacks had such a winning and probably a bit of an overwhelming reputation that they deserved the right to perform the haka but i don't believe they still have the right or mana to perform it.

[mashman]

when was it first actually used as the challenge we see today.

I've never looked at it as a challenge (i know nothing about it, other than what i've read in this thread.), more a greeting dance or death dance, buyer beware no refunds. I could be very wrong though.

[phill-k]

Too right mate, asking for one single Maori to speak on behalf of all the entire hundreds of thousands that belong to various tribes with various affairs to be specific on what 'we' all want as we progress towards the future - yeh..... its a bit hard aye

Yes the best form of defense is attack ah puss nuts -

As MM states Maori generally speak in terms of us rather than me, well the question was put to mm to answer as he saw the issues and resolution, if none of you are capable of answering the question then there will never be a resolution.

On Sunday nite on Maori TV was a doco on an ex Maori Lawyer, Tracey Tawhiao from the BOP very astute Lawyer on things Maori, who has turned to art to express her feelings about the oppression of maori, trouble was she was very articulate about historical grievances but said nothing about what she felt was a solution to the way forward.

I take a great deal of interest in these issues having married a native:facepalm: and also just as a middle aged NZer interested in things NZ. This country is possibly the best country to live in in the world, I don't believe maori in NZ are that disadvantaged by their history and our all in compassing society takes reasonable care of all NZer's including maori.

Dean as an individual you should be able to express if you feel genuinely disadvantaged, or oppressed because of your ethnicity what you consider t be the solutions to allow you to move on and join and contribute to NZ society.

[MSTRS]

... to move on and join and contribute to NZ society.

But isn't that just the point?
'They' don't want to move on. 'They' want stuff back.
'They' don't want to join. 'They' want their own form of apartheid.
'They' don't want to contribute. 'They' want self-governance.

'They' being the likes of the Harawiras, Ken Mair and Tuhoe, etc

This provocative post brought to you every concerned NZ-born non-Maori

[mashman]

But isn't that just the point?
'They' don't want to move on. 'They' want stuff.
'They' don't want to join. 'They' want their own form of apartheid.
'They' don't want to contribute. 'They' want self-governance.

'They' being the likes of the Key, English and Hyde, etc


Ammended to something that may well have been spoken a couple of hundred years ago :shifty:

[Banditbandit]

Kia ora ra

Sorry, I haven't been on a computer for weeks .. but I have been thinking about what else I want to say here ... and to answer MSTRS' question ... and respond to other things raised here ...

I won't be here for any longer than it takes to write this ... but I haven't forgotten, ignored or checked out ...

Back with more in the next few days ... I'm having computer problems as well as everything else ... back when I can

[Banditbandit]

A question for you to consider answering - Tell me what it is that Maori want, be specific, don't refer to righting past wrongs, but tell me what Maori want as we as NZers' go forward in the 21st century Kea Kaha
Boy – you
ask some tough ones. As has been said, I can’t speak for all Māori.. but let me give this one a crack ... part of the problem is that I’m one of those dreaded beasts called an “academic” – and a sociologist at heart - so sometimes I think of these things in jargon words ... it's taken a while to get my ideas down the best I can ... asnd I'm sorry - I can't help but refer to some of the past ...

We want a fair and equitable society ... we want to be one nation with many cultures ... we want Pākehā to make a social space which includes us and all other cultures that are present in Aotearoa.

Ignore what the Pākehā media says. The people they highlight are good news value – they are not completely representative of all Māori views. While we will not criticise people like Hone Harawira to Pākehā, and we might agree with the message, we do not all agree with the approach. The Pākehā media makes too much of what these people say ... they don’t highlight Pākehā radicals in the same way ...

We want a fair and equitable society ...

We do not have a level playing field. Our economic resources were taken from us in the 19th and 20th century, and the Pākehā benefited from gaining those economic assets – primarily land. If we had retained those assets we would be in a much better position socially than today. And I don’t mean we would be rich – but many of the social issues we face, and badly affect our young people, would not exist to the level they do today.

We want to recognise that this country has many cultures. Pākehā are good at making the right words – but do not follow that up with action. Recognising many cultures means not expecting people we meet to follow the behavioural norms of our own cultures, and allowing them to behave in ways acceptable within their culture ...Theft, murder, domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse are NOT part of Māori culture – these were learnt from the Pākehā or are a well-researched result of colonisation. This does not mean that individual responsibility for crimes, and such, are abrogated. Reasons for actions are not the same as excuses for actions.

However, within Māori culture, the group is responsible for all its members. The individualism and rebellion of our young people was learnt from Pākehā. It is not a part of our culture.

Some Pākehā are really good at saying “Why can’t we be one culture? And meaning we should all be Pākehā culture ... I agree – I have lived in both and think we would all be better off if we all followed Māori culture – it’s a saner and more human way to live .. but in reality there are many cultures in this country and they should each be allowed their space ...

We want Pākehā to make a social space for us ...

We tried to make a social space for Pākehā in our world, but that was rejected by the settlers who wanted us to become like them. Now, White New Zealand (and I make a distinction between White New Zealand, which I use as a deliberately derogatory term, from Pākehā, which is an inhabitant of this country with ancestors from European countries and not derogatory) pushes us to the margins, makes derogatory comments about our people, especially our young people who have lost their way in this world. This means that some of our young people are trying to live up to the negative images pushed by white New Zealanders ... And before you argue about the origins of the word Pākehā, it simply means a New Zealander of European origin that was born here .. . and if you don’t like being given a name by another group, Māori was not our name for ourselves – it was the name the first Europeans who got here gave us ... We are named by the other group ..

So – we take responsibility for our people – watch programmes such as Māori TV’s programme on our heath initiatives in Whanganui to see what we are doing.
Watch Māori TV and you will get a different view of our country from the Pākehā media

As well, we want you to listen to us and include us in decision-making processes. I’ll try to articulate this through an example.

In Northern Hawke’s Bay the iwi Rakaipaka are asking for the return of the Mohaka River to Māori control. This is important for the future of the region. Right now a lot of water is being taken from the river for irrigation of agricultural processes. Too much water. Rakaipaka is saying that the water supplies in their areas are drying up. Springs and wells that supply houses are disappearing. This means that young people are moving away from the area and into the cities – with attendant social problems. As well, Rakaipaka’s kiwifruit orchards and vineyards will be affected. But this is not just happening for Māori homes and businesses, this will also be happening for Pākehā homes and businesses as the area is a mix of Māori and Pākehā. The bush areas are drying up – the land is drying up. IT affects everyone who lives there.

Pākehā scientists who are involved in consent processes for water say there is not an issue, but the people who live there can see the issue – it affects them every day. This is not necessarily a Māori issue, as it affects Pākehā as well, and there are Pākehā voices opposing further irrigation in areas like Canterbury and the Mackenzie country (remember the row over the enclosed dairy farms proposed for the Mackenzie country.)

Rakaipaka doesn’t want control of the river to take out more water – they want control of the river to basically leave the water where it is – so that homes have a water supply, so the existing businesses have a water supply.

We don’t trust the Pākehā processes for allocating water – they are proven to be flawed. University trained “scientists” don’t know the land like the people who live there do. If Rakaipaka gets control of the river whole communities will benefit – both Māori and Pākehā.

Now, this highlights another issue – our two cultures have lost trust in each other. That’s a terrible state of affairs. It’s highlighted by the Foreshore and Seabed debate. Pākehā believe that if we get control of that we will restrict access to the beaches. Nothing could be further from the truth – and in fact in many places Pākehā land owners restrict access to the beaches now. The situation is not helped by some of our own people, who, as a protest, have restricted access to the beach where they own the land. Let’s put the Foreshore and Seabed issue aside for the moment, as it is a bit of a sidetrack – I only brought it up to as an example of the mistrust between our two groups. I am prepared to discuss it, but not quite here.

I want to move this somewhere else. So that’s enough for now. As some questions, lets have a discussion and then I’ll add some more ...

Thank you to those who have taken the time to read all the way through and considered what I have said.

Ngā mihi aroha ki a koutou.

[avgas]

Yeah nah that sounds to complicated.

How about $20 billion and some KFC?

[Banditbandit]

Yeah nah that sounds to complicated.

How about $20 billion and some KFC?

:rofl: We'll take that money - but hold the Kentucky Fucked Duck ... we've had enough of that already

[avgas]

:rofl: We'll take that money - but hold the Kentucky Fucked Duck ... we've had enough of that already
Good news lads!

Going to our current plan of payments, we should have it all settled in 400 years.

We will however have sold everything to the Chinese to pay for this.

Suddenly a $1b fiscal envelope doesn't sound so bad, we could have had it all paid off in a years time.

[Banditbandit]

I do have one question for you BB as you are probably the most informed person i have come across regarding Maori info and i truely mean no offence but somethings been bugging me for a while
as i understand it Kamate Kamate was conceived by Te Rauparaha as he hid from rival Maori/soldiers beneath a wahines skirts as she tended a kumara pit...........So......My question being how did it make the jump from,and again no offence intended here,a guy hiding under a womans skirt......to the haka we see today.sorry i just dont get it..........when was it first actually used as the challenge we see today.

Sorry - I missed this one. It's old but deserves an answer.

Yes, Ka mate a Mate was written by Te Rauparaha after his escape fleeing from a rivasl group's war party. The haka itself is a lot longer than the ABs perform . The whole thing tells the whole story ..

What the All Blacks use celebrates the man with the hairy legs who let down a ladder into the pit so he could climb out after his narrow escape ... Yes, as I understand it, he hid in the kumera pit under "a woman's skirt". A chief sitting under the bum and vagina of a woman was such an offence against tapu that the war party never thought of looking for him there ... an interesting idea that he breached tapu in such a way to save his own life ... this haka actually belongs to the wi called Ngati ToaRangatira, who are descendents of te Rauparaha, which was why Kapa o Pango was written as an All Black haka instead of them using Ngati ToaRangatira intellectual property rights. Kapa o Pango can be translated as "All Blacks" ...

Have a look here . this is not bad, but doesn't really answer your question - I'm not sure anyone can answer it ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka_(sports)

[admenk]

Yeah nah that sounds to complicated.

How about $20 billion and some KFC?

Are you sure you're not on the Treaty settlements tribunal (or whatever it's called)

[Banditbandit]

Good news lads!

Going to our current plan of payments, we should have it all settled in 400 years.

We will however have sold everything to the Chinese to pay for this.

Suddenly a $1b fiscal envelope doesn't sound so bad, we could have had it all paid off in a years time.

:rofl: Jeez .. anyone in the right mind would have taken that offer of $20billion .. way beyond what anyone has offered us so far ...