Thursday's Dominion Rd crash killing a biker

[MarkH]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10693281

It seems that the driver of the car is very distraught over killing the biker and believes that he was careful and DID check that the way was clear. I have some sympathy for that driver, this incident will have a rather devastating effect on his life.

To me this seems like a case of a driver looking, but not seeing. The bike must have been their to be seen, they don't really appear out of nowhere. I truly believe that there is a problem with HOW drivers look - not really looking for bicycles or motorbikes, just a glance and if nothing registers in their brain then they think the way is clear. We need a vigorous marketing campaign encouraging all road users to look carefully at intersections and to verify that there is a completely clear road before proceeding.

[Bald Eagle]

encouraging all road users to look carefully at intersections and to verify that there is a completely clear road before proceeding.

Isn't that what they should learn and have been tested on for their 'scratch and win' licence?

[Crisis management]

Isn't that what they should learn and have been tested on for their 'scratch and win' licence?

Easy to say, but I've almost cleaned out a scooter at a roundabout when driving the Isuzu simply because I didn't see him, despite our best efforts sometimes we stuff up.
I have every sympathy for the driver, he seems very remorsefull for his involvement with the accident, what more can we ask of each other?

[swbarnett]

he was careful and DID check that the way was clear.
The trouble is that people "don't see anything" rather than "see nothing". A subtle but very important distinction.

[MSTRS]

Any driver can be remorseful after the fact. One would hope so, anyway.
But to say 'the road was clear' is much the same as saying 'it wasn't my fault'. The simple fact is that the road was NOT clear, and the driver didn't look properly...

Mind you, no details about where the bike was, how fast, etc.

[Maha]

Was it half way down Dominion Rd?...:facepalm:

[george formby]

Easy to say, but I've almost cleaned out a scooter at a roundabout when driving the Isuzu simply because I didn't see him, despite our best efforts sometimes we stuff up.
I have every sympathy for the driver, he seems very remorsefull for his involvement with the accident, what more can we ask of each other?


I have suffered a similar fate once or twice. As you say even if you look it doe's not mean that your brain will give you all the information. It takes a conscious effort to think bike or cycle when looking otherwise your brain can filter out anything that is not a car or truck. It's not a fault just human fallibility & the only way around it is with training & always using that training. It still won't make us perfect though.

[shrub]

I fail to understand how something approx. 1.5m high and 1 m wide with a bright shiny light is invisible. When i'm driving not only can I see the bike coming the other way, but I can see what make and model it is and my eyesight isn't that flash these days.

I see bikes because I look for them.

I wonder if the car driver who killed the biker would have "seen" a child on a bicycle, or a pretty girl? I wonder whether he'll ever do that again?

I think the biggest cause of SMIDSYs is simply that people see but don't notice many motorcyclists. It is my belief that car drivers do see all bikes, just like they see the pretty girl with a short skirt, the sign advertising milk, the postbox, the car 100 m away etc. Their subconscious then processes this data and selects the stuff that's important: Pretty girl - yes; postbox, no; car, no (too far away); milk, yes (I need to buy some); motorcyclist, no. Their subconscious decides that the bike is not something to worry about and therefore to be ignored because motorcyclists are not important and not a threat.

When I'm on my Triumph I get very, very few SMIDSYs a year because I'm a big guy on a loud black bike with a black helmet. I did an experiment a couple of years ago, and decided to ride around town for a week on a 250 Keeway wearing a red helmet and a grey and white cordura jacket. Over that week I was cut off, had cars pull into my lane, had cars pull out in front of me and more - I didn't actually last a week. I get a shitload more problems with car drivers when i'm in my shitty old Bluebird! The reason car drivers see AND notice me is because their subconscious decides that I'm a potential threat, therefore to be avoided.

[steve_t]

He didn't look for a bike

Exactly! I wonder if the government would consider bringing back the "Look for bikes" advertising campaigns, at least each summer.

[DMNTD]

I used to commute via Dominion Rd twice a day, 6 days per week and fortunately I was only bowled the one time...she didn't see me either :facepalm:
I witnessed some of themost appauling driving and RIDING ever during the year that I used that route.
As motorcyclists/scooters are allowed to utilise the bus lanes, cars/other motorists do find it more difficult to 'see us'. I too have nearly hit someone that I hadn't seen too.
Awareness on BOTH SIDES is required

[NighthawkNZ]

Motion Induced Blindness... it is more comon than you think

http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_mib/

[MarkH]

I fail to understand how something approx. 1.5m high and 1 m wide with a bright shiny light is invisible.

It is not invisible and looking with care and trying to see a bike will allow a driver to see it. The eyes would have picked up the bike, but that is not where sight happens - within the brain is where sight happens and within the brain of this car driver the motorcyclist was not seen. How many of us on this site have never had a car driver sorry because he didn't see us? Let's face it - drivers get hit by trains, trucks & buses that they didn't see, there are a lot of careless people in the world and while driving over a tonne of steel & glass they are still careless.

Too often a car driver fails to take due care and a cyclist, motorcyclist, pedestrian or another car driver is killed. This is sad & tragic and without an improvement in how much care people take in a mundane task like operating a motor vehicle - it will continue to happen.

Not that it is fair that they should subsidise us on the ACC levy though, heaven forbid that should happen. :whistle:

[MarkH]

I think that the next war should be fought on motorcycles. The enemy is defeated and says "they took us by surprise, we didn't see them". Riding a motorcycle - the best camouflage known to man!

[NONONO]

Fkin sickend by this, since seeing the Herald headline and the picture I have been sick and angry all day. Still shaking.
For the first time in 34 years riding, without a break, I seriously thought of jacking.
Simply walking away from something that has defined who I am for most of my life.
How can you not see a motorcycle...from the horrible image it looked like a twin headlight.
I'm 6ft, my bikes bright red, my lights are on...what is difficult to see?
To those of you with some fellow feeling for the driver of the car,, good on yer, you are better people than me at the moment.
I'm left sad, angry and sick......
The families of the rider will have to carry on best they can, god bless em.
The pillion, well, we can all hope.
Fucked if I can think of any more to say.

[shrub]

Motion Induced Blindness... it is more comon than you think

http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_mib/

And I hate to sound like Katman, but there are techniques to avoid this. When I ride in traffic i move from side to side in my lane, accelerate, brake etc because I believe when I do that the car driver's subconscious says "hmm, not sure what the fuck that guys up to, best I pay attention". When I was in the armed services we were trained to travel in a straight line and not move side to side against our background for that very reason.

[george formby]

It is not invisible and looking with care and trying to see a bike will allow a driver to see it. The eyes would have picked up the bike, but that is not where sight happens - within the brain is where sight happens and within the brain of this car driver the motorcyclist was not seen. How many of us on this site have never had a car driver sorry because he didn't see us? Let's face it - drivers get hit by trains, trucks & buses that they didn't see, there are a lot of careless people in the world and while driving over a tonne of steel & glass they are still careless.

Too often a car driver fails to take due care and a cyclist, motorcyclist, pedestrian or another car driver is killed. This is sad & tragic and without an improvement in how much care people take in a mundane task like operating a motor vehicle - it will continue to happen.

Not that it is fair that they should subsidise us on the ACC levy though, heaven forbid that should happen. :whistle:

Due care & attention. That about sums up what is required from all road users, all of the time.

[Drunken Monkey]

Multiple eye-witnesses report the bike going down the median and hit the car so hard, the car spun around and back into it's lane. Ignoring any estimates of the bike's speed, surely you'd have to be doing something extremely silly for a 200kg object to shunt a 1200kg object that far - irrespective of whether the car pulled out to make a turn without checking. What was that mangled mess anyway, an FZ/R 1000 or similar?

[george formby]

Multiple eye-witnesses report the bike going down the median and hit the car so hard, the car spun around and back into it's lane. Ignoring any estimates of the bike's speed, surely you'd have to be doing something extremely silly for a 200kg object to shunt a 1200kg object that far - irrespective of whether the car pulled out to make a turn without checking. What was that mangled mess anyway, an FZ/R 1000 or similar?

I did not want to mention it but it doe's look like a helluva impact.

[jasonu]

Here in the states bike headlights must always be on and are set to flash really fast. It is almost impossible not to notice a bike with this flashing headlight, in fact I find it annoying as it can take my attention from other things on the road but I never do not see the bike. As far as I know it is mandatory to have the flashing headlight and it works.

[steelphoenix]

Bike was a silver Yamaha FZR 1989 1000cc.

Rego wasn't blurred on the photos originally.

[Ronin]

Bike was a silver Yamaha FZR 1989 1000cc.

Rego wasn't blurred on the photos originally.

Congrats. You are now as bad as the herald.

Bikers name has not been released as far as I know.


Edit: Well Done

[steelphoenix]

Congrats. You are now as bad as the herald.

Bikers name has not been released as far as I know.


Edit: Well Done

Sorry, mistake with the copy-pasta. My very, very bad. :facepalm: :o

[dipshit]

I truly believe that there is a problem with HOW drivers look

There is also a problem of too many motorcyclists riding around in heavy traffic like cocks.

[Ronin]

Sorry, mistake with the copy-pasta. My very, very bad. :facepalm: :o

Sweet as Mate.

Bloody Harold needs a bullit.

[Bikemad]

i consider myself a careful driver but i have nearly taken out a cyclist a couple of years ago as i approached a roundabout going on dusk in the evening...............didnt see him as the front right pillar totally obstructed my view of him.........
dont know the circumstances of this crash..........just sayin sometimes genuine accidents do happen
i feel for the driver,the pillion and family of the rider.........R.I.P

[swbarnett]

When I'm on my Triumph I get very, very few SMIDSYs a year because I'm a big guy on a loud black bike with a black helmet.
I also get very few. I think the type and colour of my fairing stands out to motorists because it looks like a cop bike to them. I'm continually amazed at the number of slower drivers that get out of my way when I come up behind them.


Or maybe it's the dragons on my helmet that scares them?

[Maha]

We need a vigorous marketing campaign encouraging all road users to look carefully at intersections and to verify that there is a completely clear road before proceeding.

Just on this particular point...
Taken from the herald report.

"A moment's carelessness or inattention on anyone's behalf can be tragic within seconds."

The word 'anyone' is poignant here. All due respect, the bike hit the car, not the other way around.
I watched a road safety video a few weeks ago, one part showed the scenario where a bike was riding along and ahead to his left was a car waiting to turn left from a side road. There were cars parked to the bikers left so vision for the car driver was not that great. Now, at this point, the rider could see what the potential was, so he moved, just enough to make sure the car driver could see him...'motion camouflage'...the dragonfly effect.

[rastuscat]

Google Looked But Failed To See.

Also google inattention blindness.

Before it happens, nobody ever believes that they will look but not see an oncoming vehicle. After it happens they can't believe it, but the evidence is there.

Because nobody thinks it will happen to them, the "Look Twice For Bikes" message doesn't get through, as nobody thinks it applies to them, coz they will never not see something.

Bugger, and sorrow at this predictable tragedy. It will be repeated over and over.

http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/inattentionalblindness.html

[Quasievil]

I wonder if the car driver who killed the biker would have "seen" a child on a bicycle, or a pretty girl? I wonder whether he'll ever do that again?



I vote a topless chick on all our bikes !!
:yes:

[avgas]

I will be pissed off if its the same prick whom hit me.......

I fucken bet it is........

Thats it - I'm off for a beer :drinkup:

[NONONO]

Have seen 2 posts on here,
1, states biker was speeding down the center line..spun car around.
2, states bike hit car...
can I ask where the above information came from guys?

[Kiwi Graham]

I think anyone who has ridden a bike for a number of years (on the road) will have experienced the "sorry mate I didn't see you" scenario complete with an apologetic wave, a no eye contact hand up to say sorry or worse.

Yes of course 'riding defensively' reduces our risk but accident will still happen.

No doubt the bike haters and Katman will blame the bike rider but it would appear the bike simply wasn't seen in this instance. A terrible accident that in reality shouldn't of happened.

Campaigns to raise awareness of motorcycles such as the "look once look twice think bike one" should be done again and bill boards around our streets reminding motorists of our vulnerability.

ACC have managed to take a shed load more money of us to spend on rider safety so how about spending some of it to help us be less at risk from cars drivers!

[george formby]

Google Looked But Failed To See.

Also google inattention blindness.

http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/inattentionalblindness.html

An inappropriate but still relevant example of how what can be seen & what is recognized differ.

I enjoy spearfishing / free diving & a few years ago I was descending in very clear blue water, quite happily. When I resurfaced, my buddy swam over & asked me why i did not take a shot. Shot at what? A dirty great Kingfish had been swimming just a few feet in front of my mask & I had not seen it.
Because my eyes had nothing to fix on in the clear water, they had focused on the inside of my dive mask. I was effectively blind until I could see the bottom & gained some depth perspective. Damn freaky!
It's not just looking, it's thinking. I had to teach myself to focus my eyes manually on blue water dives.

[rastuscat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AwwlJtnwA8

[aff-man]

This is an interesting one seeing as roughly 8 odd months ago this happened to me on Remurewa Rd. I was riding the ninja at the time so bright green motorcycle, with headlight on etc etc etc. Guy pulled through traffic into his driveway 3-4m in front of me. Ended up doing a stoppie into the side of his Remurewa tractor (had the missus on the back so stayed on to try scrub off speed instead of looking to jump off) head first into his door with the girly bouncing off the roof...

A months worth of headaches and still having some back problems and all he got was a $150 fine and 20 demerit points for failing to give way or something....

So from that experience and reading this in the paper I can draw a couple of conclusions.

1 - We as bikers tend to notice bikes a lot more on the road because we know where to look, you're average car driver doesn't and a lot of the time doesn't try. "If some big hulking 1200kg mass isn't coming down the road then it must be clear" seems to be the mindset. And the "oh I didn't see you" factor just doesn't cut it in my books.

2 - From the mess of that bike I doubt he was doing the speed limit when whe vehicle pulled out on him. BE AWARE people are muppets. In built up areas especially full of impatient people and a lot of traffic this will happen to you so prepare for it. I thought I was prepared going just under 50 and looking for said offenders and a vehicle still did it to me and unfortunately a van blockign my vision of the offending vehicle as well as the gap put me up shit's creek prevention wise....

3 - This has only been brought to the attention of the media due to a fatality. It happens all the time with cars pulling across motorcycles causing an accident. It is true there are people on bikes riding around like dicks with "bullet-proof" vests on, but the fact of the matter is that as a percentage of at fault incidents this is low.

4- The punishment for drivers "NOT SEEING US" is definately not severe enough... A dangerous/careless driving charge should at least be attached if the driver was at fault


Just my 2c

[Maha]

Have seen 2 posts on here,
1, states biker was speeding down the center line..spun car around.
2, states bike hit car...
can I ask where the above information came from guys?

Must have come from those unreliable eyewitness's, the buggers.

[NONONO]

Right...so...
Fat bloke in the pub said.....
No real evidence yet then..

[hellokitty]

I vote a topless chick on all our bikes !!
:yes:

it would have to be a stationary bike - remember ATGATT :innocent: imagine falling off and scraping the boobies....

[Maha]

No real evidence what so ever, I put car before the bike because, the car pulled out and the bike hit it? least I beleive thats what happened.

[hellokitty]

This is an interesting one seeing as roughly 8 odd months ago this happened to me on Remurewa Rd. I was riding the ninja at the time so bright green motorcycle, with headlight on etc etc etc. Guy pulled through traffic into his driveway 3-4m in front of me. Ended up doing a stoppie into the side of his Remurewa tractor (had the missus on the back so stayed on to try scrub off speed instead of looking to jump off) head first into his door with the girly bouncing off the roof...


How could anyone not see a green Ninja - they stand out like dogs bollix

[Drunken Monkey]

Right...so...
Fat bloke in the pub said.....
No real evidence yet then..

My customer was a witness at the scene, I spoke to him earlier today.

[\m/]

I vote a topless chick on all our bikes !!
:yes:
Does carver get a male stripper on his bike?

[MSTRS]

it would have to be a stationary bike - remember ATGATT :innocent: imagine falling off and scraping the boobies....

I'm imagining kissing them better...:love::yes:

[NONONO]

My customer was a witness at the scene, I spoke to him earlier today.

Right...so if the Herald decides to look for a quote and finds your post (as they have done before on KB) all good, they have an eye witness statement which puts the rider at fault in this terrible thing before any details or facts known..........

[thehovel]

This is an interesting one seeing as roughly 8 odd months ago this happened to me on Remurewa Rd. I was riding the ninja at the time so bright green motorcycle, with headlight on etc etc etc. Guy pulled through traffic into his driveway 3-4m in front of me. Ended up doing a stoppie into the side of his Remurewa tractor (had the missus on the back so stayed on to try scrub off speed instead of looking to jump off) head first into his door with the girly bouncing off the roof...



4- The punishment for drivers "NOT SEEING US" is definately not severe enough... A dangerous/careless driving charge should at least be attached if the driver was at fault


Just my 2c


Send his name and address to the Hell's Angels or Hwy61:angry: and see if they have any prospects that need "exersizing".:bye::bye: Do it half a dozen times, get some media coverage ,instant all cage drivers SEE bikes.(perceived threat) :shutup::shutup::shutup: Regards Richard

[NONONO]

Send his name and address to the Hell's Angels or Hwy61:angry: and see if they have any prospects that need "exersizing".:bye::bye: Do it half a dozen times, get some media coverage ,instant all cage drivers SEE bikes.(perceived threat) :shutup::shutup::shutup: Regards Richard

Easily impressed.......much?

[MarkH]

Multiple eye-witnesses report the bike going down the median and hit the car so hard, the car spun around and back into it's lane. Ignoring any estimates of the bike's speed, surely you'd have to be doing something extremely silly for a 200kg object to shunt a 1200kg object that far - irrespective of whether the car pulled out to make a turn without checking. What was that mangled mess anyway, an FZ/R 1000 or similar?

How much damage is done by a bike (with rider + pillion) travelling at 50-60kph hitting a car? Is this damage way out of line compared to that?


There is also a problem of too many motorcyclists riding around in heavy traffic like cocks.

This thread is about an incident in which a rider was killed & a pillion was injured, I am not sure that your comments are appropriate here.


All due respect, the bike hit the car, not the other way around.

From what I read it sounds like the car turned into the path of the motorcycle after the driver looked & failed to see the bike. Regardless of the speed of the bike or the failure of the bike rider to avoid the collision (if avoidance was possible) the car driver was clearly wrong to turn into the path of an oncoming vehicle that he should have been able to see.

[Phreak]

Jesus, another biker accident...? Is it the season for it all of a sudden? Maybe I will stay off my bike for a while yet I think... Seems like someone is being clipped or hit every other day at the moment! This is almost getting depressing, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks so.

Again, condolences to the rider's family and friends. Speedy recovery to the pillion.

[Berries]

No doubt the bike haters and Katman will blame the bike rider but it would appear the bike simply wasn't seen in this instance. A terrible accident that in reality shouldn't of happened.
I think that's a bit harsh. I'm not commenting on this crash at all, just your quote above. We all know car drivers don't see us so it is up to us to make sure when they do pull out on as us, as they do all the bloody time, we are in a postion to do something about it. It is as simple as that. No point apportioning blame to anyone. People fuck up, we get hurt.

[Katman]

No doubt the bike haters and Katman will blame the bike rider

The accidents that I comment on have enough information available for me to make a judgement call on.

I don't know enough about this one to have an opinion yet.

In the meantime - go fuck yourself.

[rastuscat]

The accidents that I comment on have enough information available for me to make a judgement call on.

I don't know enough about this one to have an opinion yet.

In the meantime - go fuck yourself.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good caption sheet.

[phill-k]

Right...so...
Fat bloke in the pub said.....
No real evidence yet then..

On the contrary plenty of evidence and the serious crash unit will in time publish their findings.
Be a nice idea if we all stop speculating until then.
Remember though very few collisions on our roads are accidents where neither party if acting appropriately could have mitigated the outcome.

[Neon]

There is a very interesting book called "The Invisible Gorilla and other ways out intuitions deceive us" by a couple of cognitive psychologists Christopher Chabris and Daniel Simons. They are the brains behind the famous 'Invisible Gorilla" experiment with the basketball players passing a ball, and the gorilla that walks through the shot while the observer is busy counting passes. Very few people notice the gorilla despite the fact that it is in the centre of the screen.

Chabris and Simons dedicate most of a chapter to the phenomenon of motorcyclists being practically invisible to other road users. The major problem has already been alluded to by others, that people do not expect to see motorcycles, so do not see them. Our brains must receive and process such a massive amount of visual information while in control of a motor vehicle, that the brain economises on processing power by constructing 'models' of the environment which it calls up as required. These models are based on experience and also to an extent our survival instincts (other's comments regarding 'threat' detection fit here nicely).

The real problem is this: That because these perceptual models are based on experience, no amount of hi-viz, lights-on policies or loud pipes are going to have any real impact on getting drivers to see motorcycles. Educational campaigns such as 'Look out for Motorbikes' have limited effect because they are quickly forgotten and are therefore never fully implemented into these subconsious perceptual models.

In truth, the only solution that is likely to have any real lasting effect is to significantly increase the number of motorcycles on the road, so that drivers of other vehicles have evidential visual experience of motorcycles every time they set out, and integrate the expectation of motorcycle-like objects into their subconcious programming.

This also explains why as motorcyclists we cannot understand why other drivers do not see us - because WE would. We automatically notices motorcycles because we expect to see them.

What does this mean for us? That we cannot expect drivers of other vehicles to see us. And if we want to ride motorcycles on the road, our survival rests solely with our skills of defensive riding and the anticipation of hazardous situations. No amount of berating other drivers for their incompetencies or threatening them with harsher penalties will magically make it so.

[dipshit]

This thread is about an incident in which a rider was killed & a pillion was injured, I am not sure that your comments are appropriate here.

Too bad.

The point is this could easily be another situation of a motorcyclist riding in a completely irresponsible and stupid manner and the car driver is the unfortunate party that had to share the road with a shit for brains motorcyclist.

[Swoop]

Jesus, another biker accident...? Is it the season for it all of a sudden?
No. Late October onwards is the start of "the season". We have been very lucky this year so far...

In truth, the only solution that is likely to have any real lasting effect is to significantly increase the number of motorcycles on the road, so that drivers of other vehicles have evidential visual experience of motorcycles every time they set out, and integrate the expectation of motorcycle-like objects into their subconcious programming.
Unfortunately in NZ we have fuck all road training. Drivers are concentrating on "the road" (if very experienced...) but will fail to notice the SUV reversing out of a driveway, the kiddie chasing a ball out of a gate, the dog chasing a cat onto the road, etc, etc, etc.

Situational awareness is a vital thing. Unfortunately only around 5% of road users will have it.:facepalm:

[Katman]

Unfortunately in NZ we have fuck all road training. Drivers are concentrating on "the road" (if very experienced...) but will fail to notice the SUV reversing out of a driveway, the kiddie chasing a ball out of a gate, the dog chasing a cat onto the road, etc, etc, etc.

Situational awareness is a vital thing. Unfortunately only around 5% of road users will have it.:facepalm:

Or the lane splitting motorcyclist that fails to see the gap in the traffic ahead that would allow a car to turn across their path.

[porky]

Or the lane splitting motorcyclist that fails to see the gap in the traffic ahead that would allow a car to turn across their path.

I thought you hadnt formed an opinion yet?:innocent:

[Katman]

I thought you hadnt formed an opinion yet?:innocent:

It's not an opinion on this accident - it's a general observation.

[u4ea]

RIP to the rider and condolences to all concerned.

I am not looking forward to the right hand rule change:shutup:..dont even know if pedestrians will be safe until we all get used to it:facepalm:

[Tink]

RIP to the biker involved, and may the pillion pull through! ... I hope the driver will have some forgiveness given him, and he takes a defensive driving course, and gets behind the wheel again safely, and carefully more aware of ALL humans on whatever or not transport are in, as he can... the biker can't.

[Drunken Monkey]

Right...so if the Herald decides to look for a quote and finds your post (as they have done before on KB) all good, they have an eye witness statement which puts the rider at fault in this terrible thing before any details or facts known..........

Not my problem.

I'll rephrase that:

You're an idiot if you think that I should somehow be held responsible for bad journalism in a second rate newspaper.

[NONONO]

No you are not to blame for bad journalism...you are to blame for encouraging and feeding it.
You are also to blame for making unproven assumptions and reporting them as fact.
You are, in fact as bad as the bad journalist.
Nuff said.
Too sad.

[madbikeboy]

Does carver get a male stripper on his bike?

WTF? Your Avatar is a car? And an ugly assed car at that. Muppet.

[Drunken Monkey]

No you are not to blame for bad journalism...you are to blame for encouraging and feeding it.
You are also to blame for making unproven assumptions and reporting them as fact.
You are, in fact as bad as the bad journalist.
Nuff said.
Too sad.

OMFG, is your helmet too tight or something? Does it restrict oxygen flow to your brain? Since when did starting a sentence with "Eye witnesses report..." suddenly become synonymous with "I am going to make a statement of fact pertaining too.." ?

Yes, you have said enough.

An internet forum gives one the ability to think about what they are going to post before doing so. Perhaps you should use this to your advantage in future.

[NONONO]

sorry did not see the start of any sentence with "eye witness report"...
Just this..
Multiple eye-witnesses report the bike going down the median and hit the car so hard, the car spun around and back into it's lane. Ignoring any estimates of the bike's speed, surely you'd have to be doing something extremely silly for a 200kg object to shunt a 1200kg object that far - irrespective of whether the car pulled out to make a turn without checking. What was that mangled mess anyway, an FZ/R 1000 or similar?
Carry on.

[Katman]

sorry did not see the start of any sentence with "eye witness report"...
Just this..
Multiple eye-witnesses .......

Yeah, because information is soooo much less reliable when multiple people witness it. :facepalm:

[NONONO]

And, before ANY information and facts are released, these "multiple eye witnesses" are....?

[Katman]

And, before ANY information and facts are released, these "multiple eye witnesses" are....?

Ahhh, just off the top of my head.......

......maybe the people that witnessed it?

[NONONO]

So we are back to..
Fat bloke down the pub...numpty......
Had enough...
Someone died last night....as I said earlier, sickened and angry....
No more from me here.

[Kendog]

How can you not see a motorcycle...from the horrible image it looked like a twin headlight.
I'm 6ft, my bikes bright red, my lights are on...what is difficult to see?
Cars have blind spots. The blind spot in a turning car can move in the same way another vehicle is moving, making it seem invisible.
That is what happened to me in a car, very very nearly wiped a big guy on a big bike out.
It's not an excuse, but it is reality.

[Drunken Monkey]

I think my customer would be offended by you calling him a "fat bloke down the pub" and "numpty". In the years I've worked with him, I have found him to be a credible person. He also rides himself, so when he makes a guesstimate to the "great rate of knots" the bike zoomed past moments before impact, I don't have any grounds to think that he is lying.

He is obviously self-respecting enough to not bother wasting his time on this site, and with the inane crap that's been posted over the last couple of years around this place I'm inclined to think it's a good philosophy. If it wasn't for some of the good friends I've made in meatspace through using this service, fools like yourself would have driven me off years ago.

[junkmanjoe]

I didn't see you.
-----------------------------
from a truck drivers point of view..
quite a few times ive had cars and bikes, appear from no where when ive been turning in to flowing traffic. its very easy to lose, or not even see a car or bike behind the big truck mirrors. ive been caught out thinking the way was clear to go, and out of nowhere pops the car or bike.. give ya a hell of a fright....

my other point is why is the media taking such photos, they getting a kick out of it..

just thinking the shit feeling the girl will have knowing her partner / friend has passed away.

wouldn't wish that on anyone...

keep safe guys and gals its silly season out there and its going to get worse..

JMJ

[danchop]

ive not read the posts,but ive seen the pic on the website and this accident is the direct result of a biker,too cocky for his worth as a biker and more so for his pillion..
the impact of shattering his front rim suggests speed in well excess of 50k per hour
sadly he deserved what he got but peace be on the pillion

[more_fasterer]

Multiple eye-witnesses report the bike going down the median and hit the car so hard, the car spun around and back into it's lane. Ignoring any estimates of the bike's speed, surely you'd have to be doing something extremely silly for a 200kg object to shunt a 1200kg object that far - irrespective of whether the car pulled out to make a turn without checking. What was that mangled mess anyway, an FZ/R 1000 or similar?

Something doesn't add up here. I was on the scene shortly after the crash occurred (i.e. before popo / fire arrived) and the car most certainly wasn't in its own lane, it was 3/4 in the opposite lane and the remaining 1/4 on the median strip. It was also angled about 30deg towards the side road. That didn't indicate to me that the car had spun around, and the damage to the car wasn't consistent with a high-speed crash.






Footnote: Having ignored this place for two years, its facepalm-inducing to return & see that katman is still passing judgement and berating motorcyclists, based only on parochial selection of media stories.

[The Pastor]

always ride with the assumption no one can see you, and you'll never give a cager the opportunity to say "sorry mate didn't see you".

The rider should always give way to the car. Might has right - and it will always be this way.

This is my attitude to riding, and it has served me well, despite all my tickets, wheelies, burnouts, stunts and general being a dickhead.

While the accident may not be your fault, 90% of the time you could of avoided the accident if you were paying attention to your surroundings.

[The Pastor]

Multiple eye-witnesses report the bike going down the median and hit the car so hard, the car spun around and back into it's lane. Ignoring any estimates of the bike's speed, surely you'd have to be doing something extremely silly for a 200kg object to shunt a 1200kg object that far - irrespective of whether the car pulled out to make a turn without checking. What was that mangled mess anyway, an FZ/R 1000 or similar?

Sorry mate, that's bullshit.

[baptist]

ive not read the posts,but ive seen the pic on the website and this accident is the direct result of a biker,too cocky for his worth as a biker and more so for his pillion..
the impact of shattering his front rim suggests speed in well excess of 50k per hour
sadly he deserved what he got but peace be on the pillion

You really think that? no one deserves to die like that, regardless of what the cause was ( and we do not know what did happen yet)... very sad and distressing for all involved

I pray the pillion rider recovers fully.

[The Pastor]

I think my customer would be offended by you calling him a "fat bloke down the pub" and "numpty". In the years I've worked with him, I have found him to be a credible person. He also rides himself, so when he makes a guesstimate to the "great rate of knots" the bike zoomed past moments before impact, I don't have any grounds to think that he is lying.

He is obviously self-respecting enough to not bother wasting his time on this site, and with the inane crap that's been posted over the last couple of years around this place I'm inclined to think it's a good philosophy. If it wasn't for some of the good friends I've made in meatspace through using this service, fools like yourself would have driven me off years ago.

Too be fair, everyone has a bias and estimating speed is really hard to do accurately.

[danchop]

yep he deserved it alright,i ride that road a fair bit as a courier and its always chocker at that part,i didnt see it but one of of our car guys did
he was a fuckin idiot and deseverd to go down and thats what he did,sadly he had a passenger

[MaxB]

I had an accident in the late 80s. A cage turned right across my path and I hit it between the headlights at a angle. I stopped the car in its tracks, pushed the engine block into the firewall and landed 15m from the impact.

I broke 17 bones, ended up in A&E.

The bike snapped its frame at the headstock. Both vehicles were written off and I was pretty fucked up for 2 months.

The police verified crash speed that caused all this....45kmh and the car was doing 10kmh. The bike was a BMW and the car was a Camira.

You don't have to be travelling that fast to do a lot of damage.

[Brian d marge]

Or the lane splitting motorcyclist that fails to see the gap in the traffic ahead that would allow a car to turn across their path.

I new I should have a dollar on every time that happens

Id be rich "!!!

Takes 2 to have and accident , and accident ~ noun rare
1. an unfortunate mishap; especially one causing damage or injury
2. anything that happens suddenly or by chance without an apparent cause
winning the lottery was a happy accident; the pregnancy was a stroke of bad luck; it was due to an accident or fortuity

we screw up , we dont have accidents

feel sorry for the driver on this one , and hope the young lass pulls through


Stephen

[doko]

Dominion road is the first road I ever drove on and I was on a scooter.

The scooter is now ridden off after being rear ended on dominion road by a bus!

I ride there... Sometimes I speed. Both drivers are at fault. But shit happens. He could have be struck by lighting if he didn't crash his bike.

Why do we always need to blame someone? The road is just badly laided out with those bus lanes and side streets.

I hardly use the bus lanes for this reason... so many near misses on dominion and a few crashes.

[DMNTD]

always ride with the assumption no one can see you, and you'll never give a cager the opportunity to say "sorry mate didn't see you".

The rider should always give way to the car. Might has right - and it will always be this way.

This is my attitude to riding, and it has served me well, despite all my tickets, wheelies, burnouts, stunts and general being a dickhead.

While the accident may not be your fault, 90% of the time you could of avoided the accident if you were paying attention to your surroundings.

Who's got RM's login?? :shit:
Best post I've ever seen 'you' make

[hellokitty]

sadly he deserved what he got but peace be on the pillion

No one deserves that - he has friends and family who are hurting right now.

[pc220]

Who's got RM's login?? :shit:
Best post I've ever seen 'you' make

Better frame that post. A rare moment of maturity from RM, thats worth gold.:yes:

[Pascal]

always ride with the assumption no one can see you, and you'll never give a cager the opportunity to say "sorry mate didn't see you".

The rider should always give way to the car. Might has right - and it will always be this way.

This is my attitude to riding, and it has served me well, despite all my tickets, wheelies, burnouts, stunts and general being a dickhead.

While the accident may not be your fault, 90% of the time you could of avoided the accident if you were paying attention to your surroundings.

My two year old daughter is normally a bit of a monster when it comes to bedtime. She rarely wants to go to sleep. The other night I just told her, "Go to bed now, please". And she stood up, toddled up the stairs with disbelieving parents following her, clambered over the side of the cot, grabbed her teddy and was down and asleep within a few minutes.

I'm convinced she was just fucking with my head. You're not, I think. That was an awesome post.

[The Pastor]

Who's got RM's login?? :shit:
Best post I've ever seen 'you' make

suck my dick!

[rastuscat]

There is a very interesting book called "The Invisible Gorilla and other ways out intuitions deceive us" by a couple of cognitive psychologists Christopher Chabris and Daniel Simons. They are the brains behind the famous 'Invisible Gorilla" experiment with the basketball players passing a ball, and the gorilla that walks through the shot while the observer is busy counting passes. Very few people notice the gorilla despite the fact that it is in the centre of the screen.

Chabris and Simons dedicate most of a chapter to the phenomenon of motorcyclists being practically invisible to other road users. The major problem has already been alluded to by others, that people do not expect to see motorcycles, so do not see them. Our brains must receive and process such a massive amount of visual information while in control of a motor vehicle, that the brain economises on processing power by constructing 'models' of the environment which it calls up as required. These models are based on experience and also to an extent our survival instincts (other's comments regarding 'threat' detection fit here nicely).

The real problem is this: That because these perceptual models are based on experience, no amount of hi-viz, lights-on policies or loud pipes are going to have any real impact on getting drivers to see motorcycles. Educational campaigns such as 'Look out for Motorbikes' have limited effect because they are quickly forgotten and are therefore never fully implemented into these subconsious perceptual models.

In truth, the only solution that is likely to have any real lasting effect is to significantly increase the number of motorcycles on the road, so that drivers of other vehicles have evidential visual experience of motorcycles every time they set out, and integrate the expectation of motorcycle-like objects into their subconcious programming.

This also explains why as motorcyclists we cannot understand why other drivers do not see us - because WE would. We automatically notices motorcycles because we expect to see them.

What does this mean for us? That we cannot expect drivers of other vehicles to see us. And if we want to ride motorcycles on the road, our survival rests solely with our skills of defensive riding and the anticipation of hazardous situations. No amount of berating other drivers for their incompetencies or threatening them with harsher penalties will magically make it so.

Sadly, you are correct. It's virtually impossible to cure this problem, given it's psychological nature.

[Maha]

Sadly, you are correct. It's virtually impossible to cure this problem, given it's psychological nature.

He is correct and that post explains the whole scenario very well.
Motorbikes are at best, 1/4 of the size of a car (except for goldwings :shit:) and to add to that, every bike rider has to be proactive in keeping themselves safe/alive. Riding in a built up and busy area needs way more attention than if you were on the Desert Rd. Queen St is a prime example, buses dont give a shit, cars dont give a shit. I saw a car doing a three point turn on Queen St a few weeks ago, they had missed thier street, there were fucken arms going in every direction from other drivers. Point is, there are those out there that dont give a shit about any other road user, its all about them.
We're on bikes, we have very very good vision on whats happening around us, use it.

[Voltaire]

No one deserves that - he has friends and family who are hurting right now.

+ 1 to that Hellokitty.

[Katman]

Footnote: Having ignored this place for two years, its facepalm-inducing to return & see that katman is still passing judgement and berating motorcyclists, based only on parochial selection of media stories.

What the fuck are you on about?

I haven't based anything I've said on media stories.

[hellokitty]

suck my dick!

Come on you can do better than that! I think my all time favourite quote from you would have to be when you said

lick my bang u homo!

Loved that one!

[phill-k]

I don't know renegade master but he and Katman have summed up the wider issue here about the "sorry mate I didn't see you" statement.

To quote "might is right" and it not much use being dead right.

As the vulnerable party motorcyclists must adapt a riding technique of assuming they are invisible and stop relying on other road users doing as they should.

We as riders must take responsibility for our own survival out there adapting methods to insure that our path is clear and never assume we have the right of way.

Personally I have three white forward facing lights, and when I hit full beam during daylight hours my light modulates, however if I'm approaching a conflict situation especially if I have no following traffic, I am looking for eye contact, watching the front wheels, and if unsure I'm starting to slow, brake, whatever, I'm looking at approaching traffic from the turning vehicles point of view - is there a small gap coming up that he might take advantage of, I also acknowledge a driver if I've taken these actions and they have become very aware of me, after all I ride for the pleasure and taking this responsibility for my own safety is a small price to pay. Likewise I pay a lot of attention to what is happening behind me, chastise myself if another road user can come up behind me without me seeing him approaching, many small things but I also accept that this may not save my skin on day, but hope that I am extending the odds out to a much greater extent.

[Owl]

Who's got RM's login?? :shit:
Best post I've ever seen 'you' make

My guess would've been Katman if below had read "Suck my cock"


suck my dick!

[jasonu]

RIP to the rider and condolences to all concerned.

I am not looking forward to the right hand rule change:shutup:..dont even know if pedestrians will be safe until we all get used to it:facepalm:

We've got it here (other side of the road of course as yanks drive on the right). Much safer rule and keeps traffic moving better. As far as I know NZ is about the only place still persisting with the old give way rule. I agree though, it will take some drivers forever to get the hang of what is a very simple and sensible rule. I am an expat Kiwi so I have experienced both rules.
Condolences to all involved in this terrible incident.

[Tink]

Many write that it is of importance that we look after ourselves and be aware on our bikes at all times. SO TRUE... BUT ... how many really do that, our brains are crazy really, we do what we want when we can, we don't as a rule like following rules, human nature, but we do follow them when we can, A LOT of people don't care about themselves let alone others.

It comes down to actually thinking thinking thinking... AND FFS do you think we do that either NOPE... life is not laid back enough, we are to busy thinking about how to survive at home money wise, or getting to the next appointment, kids function... blah blah... another sad fact... better to be there late than never... and no matter how fantastic you think your bike is, or how fast it goes, someone has one better OH EXCEPT for stroudy ...

My point, taking risks are great, but not when it affects other people your family, your friends, the pillion on your bike, you get my drift.

If ya have to take a risk and do 60km in a 50km, register the risks first. Mind you only those are not with us any more would agree don't do it ... its not worth your life!!!

Rant Over :)

I

[Paul in NZ]

Many motorcycle accidents are not fair. Many times riders get taken out by other road users BUT many times we as riders contribute to the accident as well. I doubt anyone other than some of those there would know what kind of accident this was.

I often drive on busy motorways and I have to say I seldom see bikes coming up behind me (lane splitting). In general your visibility is only a few car lengths back and you cant just focus on the mirror when there are also a lot of other potentially bad things in front of you. A bike is usually past you before you have scanned back to the mirror.

I've always assumed that in many cases you just plain cant be seen. Ride accordingly!

In certain states in the US they legalise splitting but only if the traffic is running below the legal limit by a certain amount. Even then you cant lane split over 20kph more than traffic speed. I guess its recognition that some people will take things to excess?

Either way its a shitty event and I feel for all parties, especially this close to christmas.

[phill-k]

Many write that it is of importance that we look after ourselves and be aware on our bikes at all times. SO TRUE... BUT ... how many really do that, our brains are crazy really, we do what we want when we can, we don't as a rule like following rules, human nature, but we do follow them when we can, A LOT of people don't care about themselves let alone others.

It comes down to actually thinking thinking thinking... AND FFS do you think we do that either NOPE... life is not laid back enough, we are to busy thinking about how to survive at home money wise, or getting to the next appointment, kids function... blah blah... another sad fact... better to be there late than never... and no matter how fantastic you think your bike is, or how fast it goes, someone has one better OH EXCEPT for stroudy ...

My point, taking risks are great, but not when it affects other people your family, your friends, the pillion on your bike, you get my drift.

If ya have to take a risk and do 60km in a 50km, register the risks first. Mind you only those are not with us any more would agree don't do it ... its not worth your life!!!

Rant Over :)

I

Not sure about you mate but if I'm not totally focused on the riding and that for me also means survival my riding is shit, bad lines, being caught unawares by vehicles coming from anywhere, for me part of the pleasure is feeling like I'm doing it right, also being a bloke if I'm totally focused on riding everything else leaves the mind for that time just like meditation but better.

[Tink]

Not sure about you mate but if I'm not totally focused on the riding and that for me also means survival my riding is shit, bad lines, being caught unawares by vehicles coming from anywhere, for me part of the pleasure is feeling like I'm doing it right, also being a bloke if I'm totally focused on riding everything else leaves the mind for that time just like meditation but better.

I am with you there, if I am not in the zone I don't ride!

[swbarnett]

if I am not in the zone I don't ride!
While I agree with the sentiment there are those of us that don't just ride for recreation.

My bike is my only transport and I don't always have the luxury of not riding because I don't feel "in the zone".

I do find, however, that after riding daily for the past four years in Auckland traffic (and another decade of Auckland commuting in the 80s & 90s) I am seldom not "in the zone". Riding in traffic has become completely second nature to the point where situational awareness is almost completely sub-conscious.

Serious question: Do you apply this attitude to your car driving as well?

[Katman]

I do find, however, that after riding daily for the past four years in Auckland traffic (and another decade of Auckland commuting in the 80s & 90s) I am seldom not "in the zone". Riding in traffic has become completely second nature to the point where situational awareness is almost completely sub-conscious.



Absolutely spot on.

Unfortunately, there's some twisted versions of "in the zone" out there as well.

[PrincessBandit]

suck my dick!

hahahaha, fair enough since suck-my-cock is someone else's tag line.

[Maha]

I parked 'in the zone' today....twas a loading zone:rockon:

[Tink]

While I agree with the sentiment there are those of us that don't just ride for recreation.

My bike is my only transport and I don't always have the luxury of not riding because I don't feel "in the zone".

I do find, however, that after riding daily for the past four years in Auckland traffic (and another decade of Auckland commuting in the 80s & 90s) I am seldom not "in the zone". Riding in traffic has become completely second nature to the point where situational awareness is almost completely sub-conscious.

Serious question: Do you apply this attitude to your car driving as well?

Well in the car I don't have to worry about wriggling, or taking my foot/hand off the accelerator (cruise control).... and the air conditioning helps... touch word 27 yrs of driving, and I have never had any form of an accident.

I ride my bike to work yes... at 6am... it is rare when I am not in the zone... my point is if I am too tired to ride recreational riding then I don't... but I get your meaning... IF I had to take my bike to work every day, I would make a concerted effort to be prepared for it... :)

[swbarnett]

Well in the car I don't have to worry about wriggling, or taking my foot/hand off the accelerator (cruise control).... and the air conditioning helps... touch word 27 yrs of driving, and I have never had any form of an accident.
Do you mean by this that because a car is so much easier to drive you've got more of a tired mind left over for situational awareness? This will be the biker in you coming through. I think most car drivers (non-bikers) don't give it much thought.


I ride my bike to work yes... at 6am... it is rare when I am not in the zone...
If only, I can't get up that early on a regular basis.


my point is if I am too tired to ride recreational riding then I don't...
I hear ya. I am similarly cautious about "recreational riding". I'd have to say though it takes a lot to make me too tired to ride. Happened for the first time in ages last month (lots of things going wrong at work causing lots of nights I had to work through).

[Voltaire]

I ride Dom Road every day and you have to be in " the zone' all the time in those bus lanes...less so if you just sit in the traffic....which is the whole point of riding the bike to work.
When I take the car its less so as your in a queue...radio on....in a nice safe box that wont fall over when you stop, or stop paying attention. I do however look more than at the car in front...women doing their make up at the lights, people on the phone or texting, looking for another cd, chatting to passenger....no wonder panel beaters are always so busy.

[bluebird]

I know this section of Dominion Rd well, I live close to it. I call it Asian Alley and man do you have to be careful passing those shops! The last stretch is very close to a 70k zone and people are tempted to gas it there, combine this with the motoring idiocy I see in this spot and I'm not surprised a biker was taken out. If you ever use this bit of road stay in the outside lane and stay under 40k's and watch out for the U-turners outside the asian supermarket, they often use the median strip to turn. Walters road is a place people are in a hurry to turn right across the traffic from and they don't see anything they don't want to.:facepalm:

[fuknKIWI]

Was it half way down Dominion Rd?...:facepalm:

Or half way up:shutup:

[Maha]

Or half way up:shutup:

That aint the lyric at all....:corn:

[fuknKIWI]

That aint the lyric at all....:corn:

Tell someone who gives a fuck.....
MUTTONHEAD

Don't tell me it was a white Valiant:facepalm:

[Maha]

Tell someone who gives a fuck.....
MUTTONHEAD

Don't tell me it was a white Valiant:facepalm:

Oh the irony was so close with that comment.

[terbang]

I'm still recovering from a bunch of broken bones from a "motorbike he come from nowhere, must have be speeding" where in reality I was doing 70ks (open road) and had followed the vehicle for two kays.

There is some sort of unfortunate human factor here. Drivers take a lookout for something that they perceive as a threat to themselves (something bigger than them, another car, truck, bus ETC..) but generally fail to look for something that they are a threat to (bike, motorcycle, pedestrian).

Education is the answer for both parties. Riders, make yourselves visible and drivers need to LOOKOUT-Think motorcycle-LOOKOUT AGAIN.

[shrub]

I'm still recovering from a bunch of broken bones from a "motorbike he come from nowhere, must have be speeding" where in reality I was doing 70ks (open road) and had followed the vehicle for two kays.

There is some sort of unfortunate human factor here. Drivers take a lookout for something that they perceive as a threat to themselves (something bigger than them, another car, truck, bus ETC..) but generally fail to look for something that they are a threat to (bike, motorcycle, pedestrian).

Education is the answer for both parties. Riders, make yourselves visible and drivers need to LOOKOUT-Think motorcycle-LOOKOUT AGAIN.

I think you're right. I don't believe that a car driver can NOT see a motorcycle, and that they see the bike but their subconscious doesn't identify the bike as being worth worrying about - "it's only a bike, they don't count" or "they won't hurt me" etc. I would like to see a campaign promoting the fact that the person on that bike is a living human and that if you kill or injure them, even if you come off unscathed you will go for a major skate as well as having to live with the consequences.

[Katman]

I would like to see a campaign promoting the fact that the person on that bike is a living human and that if you kill or injure them, even if you come off unscathed you will go for a major skate as well as having to live with the consequences.

I would also love to see a campaign promoting that idea.

The trouble is that we are unlikely to gain support for the idea from anyone (other than other motorcyclists) until motorcyclists are seen as a whole to be more pro-active about ensuring our own safety.

We have seen time and time again the powers that be ignoring our requests simply because they (along with the general public) don't take us seriously. While countless motorcyclists continue to outride their capabilities and cost the country a small fortune we are pushing the proverbial shit uphill.

[MSTRS]

We have seen time and time again the powers that be ignoring our requests simply because they (along with the general public) don't take us seriously. While countless motorcyclists continue to outride their capabilities and cost the country a small fortune we are pushing the proverbial shit uphill.

Not to mention the continual brainwashing in the form of media reporting of any m/c involved crash. Whereby, the subtle message is that every one is the rider's fault.

[Spearfish]

I think you're right. I don't believe that a car driver can NOT see a motorcycle, and that they see the bike but their subconscious doesn't identify the bike as being worth worrying about - "it's only a bike, they don't count" or "they won't hurt me" etc. I would like to see a campaign promoting the fact that the person on that bike is a living human and that if you kill or injure them, even if you come off unscathed you will go for a major skate as well as having to live with the consequences.

One of the major requirements for the protest at parliament to work over the ACC increases was NO CRASHES!! and you know why that was so very important.

The same thing still applies, probably even more so, with ANY lobbying to Govt or ACC or Land Transport over every other road user especially as we are largely seen as purely recreational hoons who pick and choose when to obey any law.
Then you run into the "do as I say but not as I do" ineffectual re-education.

So what happened to that ability to actually ride a bike without falling off?
AS we have seen its been done before.

[rastuscat]

Okay, lets try this. Convince an MP to start riding a bike. Inevitably, they will care more if their own skin is on the line.

[Smiff-ta]

Perhaps to make the general public more aware of motorcyclist we should change our license laws.

15 your can sit your 6L
You need to be 18 to begin your car license or have completed your full class 6.

Radical I know.

I just think back to when I first started driving, I saw bikes but was not totally aware of them. Now I ride daily, when I do drive I spot bikes miles away.

[shrub]

Okay, lets try this. Convince an MP to start riding a bike. Inevitably, they will care more if their own skin is on the line.

There are a few - Phil Goff rides a Bonnie and Dave Clendon from the Greens has (from memory) a VTR1000, plus a Labour MP has a Rocket 3 (not sure which one).

[superman]

Perhaps to make the general public more aware of motorcyclist we should change our license laws.

15 your can sit your 6L
You need to be 18 to begin your car license or have completed your full class 6.

Radical I know.

I just think back to when I first started driving, I saw bikes but was not totally aware of them. Now I ride daily, when I do drive I spot bikes miles away.

That's almost clever in a way... but you can't force a lifestyle upon the public. The problem seems to be more the perception of bikes, mainly that they're dangerous. If that was changed then I'm sure a lot more people would ride. And of course the old if there's more, then it gets into your head that you will come across them and therefore learn how to act around a motorbike.

Now we just need some clever media campaign to drive that home, either the benefits of riding a motorcycle or disproving the dangerous factor (at least the exaggerations). Could always mix both in for good measure.

At the end of the 70s there seemed to be the most riders on the roads, and through that time there was a fuel crisis. Albeit they were more running out than our still getting plenty and just upping the price. But bikes get you sweet mileage, they don't carry excessive weight that you don't need and I'm sure greenies approve.

[That looks like fun]

Just to throw a curve ball in here :innocent: I don't think its anything to do with Vision :blink: I believe its an Attitude problem.
I have people regularly pull out in front of me on my bike :facepalm: But then they also do it to me when I am in the Truck :shit: So you can scrap the "Might is right" rule (you don't get much bigger than 22 mtrs of steel and shit weighing 44 tonne)
What I put it down to is that people approach driving with a mindset to GO!!
So, Mr car driver sits on the side of the road looking to pull out, he doesn't see the motorcyclist, why? Because he was not looking for a motorcycle, he was looking for a "Gap" :yes:
Why pull out in front of a truck then? Because Mr Driver don't want to get stuck behind that truck!!
There probably is more the rider could have done to increase his safety. Sadly he didn't, and now he cant :bye:
The big difference for me between driving the Truck or Riding the bike? If it goes wrong in the truck, many die, on the bike, I die :sick: Neither is a good outcome.
Its no use jumping out of your car and running round like a headless chook crying after you have just killed someone :crybaby:
Driving is about thinking, not just doing. :love:

[MSTRS]

Driving is about thinking, not just doing.

Teach that to the masses, and you'll have solved a major headache...

Rick Barker is the Rocket 3 rider...

[Swoop]

Driving is about thinking, not just doing.
Well, that fucks up 90% of kiwi drivers.
There should be a lot of licences being handed back in...

[avgas]

Perhaps to make the general public more aware of motorcyclist we should change our license laws.

15 your can sit your 6L
You need to be 18 to begin your car license or have completed your full class 6.

Radical I know.

I just think back to when I first started driving, I saw bikes but was not totally aware of them. Now I ride daily, when I do drive I spot bikes miles away.
Not extreme enough.
6L until your 21.
Last thing NZ needs is a bunch of 17 y/o squids on R1's (legally).

[shrub]

Not extreme enough.
6L until your 21.
Last thing NZ needs is a bunch of 17 y/o squids on R1's (legally).

Depends on the rider. My son bought his Street triple just after he turned 18, but he had done a shitload of riding on his VT250 including track days and rider training so he was pretty competent on it and has now ridden over 30,000 ks on it.

[That looks like fun]

[QUOTE=MSTRS;1129930833]Teach that to the masses, and you'll have solved a major headache...

I hear ya :facepalm:
However I also have a belief that just because something is difficult means you don't try :shutup: Imagine if Ed Hillary had looked at Mt Everest and said "Bugger that for a joke" :gob:
As a boy (yesterday :innocent:) I lost my license 4 times before my brain developed enough to realize I wasn't going to win :facepalm:. If I can change and grow up it gives me hope for the rest of the world :love:
There are ways to alter attitude (monetary incentives is a bloody easy one) but instead we focus on behaviors. The learned ones will tell you that if you change the behaviour the attitude will follow. Thats why they live on there own special planet :innocent:

[DMNTD]

Depends on the rider. My son bought his Street triple just after he turned 18, but he had done a shitload of riding on his VT250 including track days and rider training so he was pretty competent on it and has now ridden over 30,000 ks on it.

Yep,depends on the parents/mentors too.

[shrub]

Yep,depends on the parents/mentors too.

That's true. He had ATTGATT and riding skills drummed into him from the day he took possession of his first bike (a classic Yamaha step through).

[avgas]

Yep,depends on the parents/mentors too.
As far as I am concerned it doesn't.
Society is too dumb to know what works and what doesn't. And unfortunately parents / mentors are too rose tinted to believe their protege' is next on the death list.

If you nailed down all the problems in modern society - its basically where someone external was not checking things, because "the local" thought it was ok.

Motorcycle license is a piece of piss to achieve. Proving to you parent's/mates that you are a capable rider is even easier. But fact of the matter is it doesn't count for shit when you become overwhelmed.
Big bikes seem to do this easily.

So I am in too minds - a) restrict the hell out of riding and save the youngin's......or b) let them do what the want - and bet their life on whether they are cable enough or not.
b) seems like the easier/more pleasant one until one day that bet is paid in full.
hence why I now prefer it was taken out of my hands with option a)

[DMNTD]

As far as I am concerned it doesn't.
Society is too dumb to know what works and what doesn't. And unfortunately parents / mentors are too rose tinted to believe their protege' is next on the death list.

If you nailed down all the problems in modern society - its basically where someone external was not checking things, because "the local" thought it was ok.

Motorcycle license is a piece of piss to achieve. Proving to you parent's/mates that you are a capable rider is even easier. But fact of the matter is it doesn't count for shit when you become overwhelmed.
Big bikes seem to do this easily.

So I am in too minds - a) restrict the hell out of riding and save the youngin's......or b) let them do what the want - and bet their life on whether they are cable enough or not.
b) seems like the easier/more pleasant one until one day that bet is paid in full.
hence why I now prefer it was taken out of my hands with option a)

I believe we may be thinking closer than you think...maybe
What I was trying to say is that with the right mentor/parent being involved, then the n00bie will have a far better fighting chance out in the big bad world of motorcycling.
100% agreed that the licenses are worth SFA these days

[fuknKIWI]

Okay, lets try this. Convince an MP to start riding a bike. Inevitably, they will care more if their own skin is on the line.

Phil Goff used to ride a Norton commando, & was seen at a BEARS club day:yes:

[BoristheBiter]

I believe we may be thinking closer than you think...maybe
What I was trying to say is that with the right mentor/parent being involved, then the n00bie will have a far better fighting chance out in the big bad world of motorcycling.
100% agreed that the licenses are worth SFA these days

It was worth SFA back when i got mine as well.
It has always been far to easy to get a licence, and just as easy to get back if its taken away.

I was lucky that i had 20 years driving and 10 years off road riding before i got my full bike licence so all that stupidness had gone (well most) and the fact i had learnt that a lot of people drive like dicks has made me more aware of whats going on around me.

[Spearfish]

All good for new riders, but what about the now riders?

Especially as the new ones will have to overcome the peer pressure of the "rebel with an agenda" riders that are out there now.

[swbarnett]

I had someone at work today comment that there were reports of the bike doing "in excess of 160km/h" before the crash. From the damage and the fact that the pillion is still alive I find this extremely hard to believe. Can anyone with way more information to me, preferably an actual witness, say of this is even credible?

[danchop]

on that small stretch from valley road lights up to where the impact was,its entirely possible for a 1000cc bike to reach 160km/h,but youd probably hit a car

[Pixie]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10693281

It seems that the driver of the car is very distraught over killing the biker and believes that he was careful and DID check that the way was clear. I have some sympathy for that driver, this incident will have a rather devastating effect on his life.

To me this seems like a case of a driver looking, but not seeing. The bike must have been their to be seen, they don't really appear out of nowhere.


Motion Camouflage:

"An article in the March issue of the UK magazine Bike added a bit to the understanding of why cars pull out in front of motorcycles. Research on how certain insects attact prey was applied to the SMIDSY crash (sorry mate, I didn't see you).

When attacking, a dragonfly stays directly in the line of sight between its potential dinner and a fixed point in the distance. If dinner moves, the dragonfly alters its path just enough to stay on that line of sight. It doesn't swoop out to "lead" its victim. This tactic has the effect of keeping the dragonfly at the same point in the prey's visual field. Because the prey sees no change in the big picture, it is unaware of the impending attack. This is called motion camouflage.

Motion is difficult to perceive when it is directly along the line of sight. Because the object is stationary relative to the background, an observer doesn't see a change in the overall image and thus isn't cued to the presence of a moving object. Though the object increases in apparent size as it nears, the change goes unnoticed at first--moving from 1000ft distant to 900ft may not affect the image enough trigger a response. A motorcycle is particularly susceptible to motion camouflage because its cross-section area as seen by an observer is much less than that of a larger vehicle.

But as the object gets closer, apparent size increases more rapidly. At constant speed, an approaching object takes the same time to move from 200ft to 100ft as it did from 1000ft to 900ft, but the apparent size increase is greater. Eventually the object seems to grow suddenly in size, and the motion camouflage is broken. This is called the looming effect. According to the Bike article, when an observer is startled by the looming effect, he may freeze in his tracks. If the observer is an oncoming left-turner, he may stop in the middle of the intersection, making a bad situation even worse.

Duncan MacKillop, the riding instructor who related motion camouflage to motorcycling, suggests that diverging from the direct line of sight will break the motion camouflage and get the observer's attention. For example, a driver stopped at a cross-street on your right will be looking left at a slight angle to the path of the road. If you stay to the left of your lane, you will diverge from his line of sight, making yourself more noticeable. But if you're veering right (say, moving from the left to the right lane) you'll be moving along the crossing driver's line of sight, helping to hide your motion against the background.

MacKillop recommends: "I observed a smooth, gentle, single, zig-zag motion, at any point along the line, created a rapid edge movement against the background and destroyed the motion camouflage. Drivers' eyes snapped towards me and they froze the movement I swept left to right and back again."

[steve_t]

Sweet, so it's all good to gently weave side to side in my lane around town. I tend to do it if I'm getting bored but now there's a good, safety reason for it :innocent:

[Pixie]

ive not read the posts,but ive seen the pic on the website and this accident is the direct result of a biker,too cocky for his worth as a biker and more so for his pillion..
the impact of shattering his front rim suggests speed in well excess of 50k per hour
sadly he deserved what he got but peace be on the pillion

Wheel rims can fail during surprisingly slow impacts

[Pixie]

I don't know renegade master but he and Katman have summed up the wider issue here about the "sorry mate I didn't see you" statement.

To quote "might is right" and it not much use being dead right.

As the vulnerable party motorcyclists must adapt a riding technique of assuming they are invisible and stop relying on other road users doing as they should.

We as riders must take responsibility for our own survival out there adapting methods to insure that our path is clear and never assume we have the right of way.

Personally I have three white forward facing lights, and when I hit full beam during daylight hours my light modulates, however if I'm approaching a conflict situation especially if I have no following traffic, I am looking for eye contact, watching the front wheels, and if unsure I'm starting to slow, brake, whatever, I'm looking at approaching traffic from the turning vehicles point of view - is there a small gap coming up that he might take advantage of, I also acknowledge a driver if I've taken these actions and they have become very aware of me, after all I ride for the pleasure and taking this responsibility for my own safety is a small price to pay. Likewise I pay a lot of attention to what is happening behind me, chastise myself if another road user can come up behind me without me seeing him approaching, many small things but I also accept that this may not save my skin on day, but hope that I am extending the odds out to a much greater extent.

Good defensive techniques, with the exception of checking for eye contact - it means nothing.The brain processes the visual data and you have no idea what the viewer is actually registering.

As for "eyewitness reports" these are meaningless too.
How do you know that their brains are not doing the Motorcyclist = speeding assumption.
There have been experiments that have had eyewitnesses say a criminal perpetrator was black when he was really white because that is what the viewer expected.

The brain's visual cortex fills in a lot of what we think we see with what could be referred to as "archive data".
See: The Invisible Gorilla Experiment

[MarkH]

The brain's visual cortex fills in a lot of what we think we see with what could be referred to as "archive data".
See: The Invisible Gorilla Experiment

There is also a gap in the vision in each eye (blind spot) correlating to where the nerves go through. We don't notice it because the brain continually photoshops the image coming in and just fills in the details inside the blind spot to match everything around it. Also everything we look at is hitting our photo-receptors in our eyes upside down, our brains invert the image for us. If we wore glasses that flipped the image then we would see everything upside down, for a while (months I think), then the image would automagically invert and look normal unless we took off those glasses which would make everything look upside down again.

What we see is NOT what the eyes pick up, our sight is what our brains make of what info comes from the eyes + processing. We are not aware on the raw data, just the mentally processed data.

Bikes can be hard to see for car drivers that don't look for them, if they looked for bikes then they would be capable of seeing them.

[terbang]

Motion Camouflage:

"An article in the March issue of the UK magazine Bike added a bit to the understanding of why cars pull out in front of motorcycles. Research on how certain insects attact prey was applied to the SMIDSY crash (sorry mate, I didn't see you).

When attacking, a dragonfly stays directly in the line of sight between its potential dinner and a fixed point in the distance. If dinner moves, the dragonfly alters its path just enough to stay on that line of sight. It doesn't swoop out to "lead" its victim. This tactic has the effect of keeping the dragonfly at the same point in the prey's visual field. Because the prey sees no change in the big picture, it is unaware of the impending attack. This is called motion camouflage.



A very real issue. Aviators have been plagued by this for years. The other aircraft that is motionless on your windshield is the hardest to see and yet is also the the one thats going to hit you.

[Ocean1]

Good defensive techniques, with the exception of checking for eye contact - it means nothing.

Correct.

One of two cars I've gone over was a woman who I'd locked eyeballs with from 40ft away.

She never saw me until after I hit her pasenger door.

[swbarnett]

There is also a gap in the vision in each eye (blind spot) correlating to where the nerves go through. We don't notice it because the brain continually photoshops the image coming in and just fills in the details inside the blind spot to match everything around it.
The brain does not fill in this blind spot by extrapolation. It is filled in by the fact that, even when you steer at something, the eye moves around involuntarily. We see a full picture because we're actually seeing a movie in which each frame has a hole but no two adjoining frames have the hole in the same place.

[buellbabe]

Correct.

One of two cars I've gone over was a woman who I'd locked eyeballs with from 40ft away.

She never saw me until after I hit her pasenger door.

Yep I can relate to that, I have had direct eye contact with car drivers and yet they still continue to move into the space i am already occupying.

Couple of days ago my mate and I were in the car (ironically we were talking about the Dom Rd tragedy), we were driving into the afternoon sun and could still CLEARLY see the headlight and shape of a bike travelling in the opposite direction.
We both said "HTF can a person NOT see that?" Even if a drivers brain doesn't register what the thing is, the fact that there is definately something there should be enough to stop them from pulling out in front of it.

[Ocean1]

I have had direct eye contact with car drivers and yet they still continue to move into the space i am already occupying.

There's actually 2 sorts of SMIDSY. The woman in the wee story above genuinely didn't see me. The arsehole in the DOC van a year ago saw me and smiled apologetically as he pulled over into my lane, exactly beside me, pushing me into the 2ft gap beside the median barrier.

Didn't manage to catch him then. But I definitely saw him, and I've got a fucking long memory.

[jrandom]

yep he deserved it alright,i ride that road a fair bit as a courier and its always chocker at that part,i didnt see it but one of of our car guys did
he was a fuckin idiot and deseverd to go down

ZOMG, 23 Danny. You need to get down here for a trackday so I can introduce you to Katman.

For what it's worth, folks, there's nothing inherently dangerous about Dom Rd unless you're a dozy twat. As Exhibit A I give you the above poster, who rides up and down it dozens of times a week with the clock ticking and an emotionally unstable Indonesian man yelling in his ear on an RT, and doesn't fall off.

Does anyone really want to argue that the dead rider in this instance wasn't a dozy twat?

WOTing it up the median barrier on Dom Rd on a tubby old superbike is essentially Russian roulette.

[MarkH]

The brain does not fill in this blind spot by extrapolation. It is filled in by the fact that, even when you steer at something, the eye moves around involuntarily. We see a full picture because we're actually seeing a movie in which each frame has a hole but no two adjoining frames have the hole in the same place.

Yeah, you are right that it doesn't use extrapolation, it actually uses interpolation.
Some links for your interest:
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chvision.html
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot1.html
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot2.html
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot3.html
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot4.html
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot5.html
These links support what I have posted - the brain is doing a lot of processing and what is seen by the eye isn't all that makes up what we see.

Can you provide any links that give any credence to the microsaccades & ocular microtremors having anything to do with gathering data to fill the blind spot? The results of my google searches suggest that the involuntary micro movements of the eye have other purposes and have nothing to do with the blind spot. Most of the time the other eye covers that area anyway.

[fuknKIWI]

Of course information overload does no harm what so ever:facepalm:

[Katman]

WOTing it up the median barrier on Dom Rd on a tubby old superbike is essentially Russian roulette.

With the chance of the bullet passing straight through your head and into the poor fucker standing next to you.

[BoristheBiter]

With the chance of the bullet passing straight through your head and into the poor fucker standing next to you.

Depends on the bullet. have seen it done, not people but deer.

[offrd]

Well guys, ride safe out there, all the car drivers may well be out to kill you.

However im sure each and every one of us has one something stupid that could have ended this way for us also....

In this case speed looks to have been a factor, and from what i have heard the bike was in the bus lane travelling at speed....
Yes the rim is split, the frame is also bent, the forks are bent and most of the front of the bike is nothing but mush....

The car has taken quite an impact, its set off the curtain airbags, bent the a pillar both at the screen and right down thru the door hinge area, and its gone in a fair bloody way.

The bike was looking at it, rather poor condition, chrome screwed, paint poor, whole bike rather weathered...
I am not sure of the mechanical condition of either vehicle as im off on holiday and have not spoken to my friend the serious crash vehicle inspector (mechanical condition) or any of the scu....
Sadly for this rider and family and extended whanau, its going to be a shit christmas.....

FFS dont any of you end up with your bikes in our yard along side this one.

Merry christmas!

Your kids/family want you home safe, every prick is in a mad rush! SO BE CAREFUL

Oh and if someone cuts you off, chase them down and smash of their mirror, might make them LOOK HARDER next time!

Dont quote me on this, Its not official, just what i heard and what i have seen and my own meandering thoughts...

Wear sunscreen

cu:scooter:

[Katman]

No doubt the bike haters and Katman will blame the bike rider but it would appear the bike simply wasn't seen in this instance.

Feeling a little bit stupid yet Graham?

[swbarnett]

Yeah, you are right that it doesn't use extrapolation, it actually uses interpolation.
Some links for your interest:
....
These links support what I have posted - the brain is doing a lot of processing and what is seen by the eye isn't all that makes up what we see.

Indeed they do. My only source was a documentery or two from decades back. It seems that things have moved on since then.

[MarkH]

Indeed they do. My only source was a documentery or two from decades back. It seems that things have moved on since then.

There's still a crap load that we don't understand about the brain - what it can do is so amazing & complicated. There should be more in depth studies of the SMIDSY phenomenon IMO. They should study how to get through to drivers that they need to look more carefully, there must be a way to get people to learn to look carefully and pay attention.

[Highlander]

Was it half way down Dominion Rd?...:facepalm:

By the Halfway House you think?

[Katman]

They should study how to get through to drivers that they need to look more carefully, there must be a way to get people to learn to look carefully and pay attention.

Perhaps they should study how to get through to motorcyclists that exceeding the speed limit in traffic congested areas is all too often going to end in tears.

[MSTRS]

Perhaps they should study how to get through to motorcyclists that exceeding the speed limit in traffic congested areas is all too often going to end in tears.

Halle-fucken-luya

[Katman]

See, what concerns me most is that, while this accident shows every sign of having involved a motorcyclist who had no regard for his own safety, no regard for his pillions safety, no regard for the safety of the others sharing the road with him and no regard for the rules that supposedly govern us all, the fact that many of you seem to be solely focused on the idea that this was a 'sorry I didn't see you' case shows that there's still far too many motorcyclists who are unwilling to accept that ultimately we are responsible for our own welfare.

We have to lose the culture of always trying to find someone else to blame.

[BoristheBiter]

I watched that invisible worlds with Richard Hammond and in that he basically said we don't see fast enough to see all what we are looking at due to the brain not being able to process it, so if you quickly look left then right chances are the you will miss something so hence SMIDSY.