Stabbed policeman left to die

[meteor]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10693748

My god, what type of scum are we raising in this country? After the initial shock and disbelief of reading this I had a few questions... How long before all single patrolled cars, rural cops etc (or even every frontliner) will be armed 24/7? Should there be a different level of sentencing for people who attack cops?
A bashing on a cop is like giving the fingers to all of society 'cause they are our representatives aren't they. Yeah there will be the "I got a ticket so all cops are bad" or "I know one that is bent so they're all pricks" brigade but hell, if we expect them 'generally' out there keeping the laws in the face of this sort of stuff... hell aren't we obliged to give them some protection and when they do get hurt... stand up and nail the pricks that did it.

[sinfull]

Give me a nail gun and the promise of no convivction for what i do to em and sure !
But i'm not allowed to smack em !

[hellokitty]

They should be done for attempted murder.

[Latte]

Yep pretty horrfic, attempted murder charges to come I hope, multiple strikes from machetes isn't assault.

[The Baron]

First. Yes it should be attempted murder.

Second. We can not give our Police guns without also giving them a licence to kill.
New Zealanders don't like it when our Police kill someone.

So it's a rock and a hard place. Yes they need guns BUT do you as the public give them your support and backing when they use them?

Thoughts to this Officer at this time.

[JimO]

bet $5.00 it was a couple of maori

[Dave Lobster]

Were he armed, it's likely he'd now be dead from his own weapon, and another weapon would be in the hands of the criminal fraternity.


what type of scum are we raising in this country?

Scum that do not want western values forced on them. They're happy with the uncultured caveman values that they've cherised for centuries.

[Kickaha]

How long before all single patrolled cars, rural cops etc (or even every frontliner) will be armed 24/7?

Being armed wouldn't help when you turn your back on the suspect

[terbang]

Maori or not, they were 14 and 18. "oh my father was never there, he's in jail and my mums in rehab and auntie tried to look after us between customers"... And they will get a minimal sentencing.

Well I know what the Saudi law would do to them (chop chop)...

I'm not convinced arming our cops is all of the answer, but perhaps combined with tougher sentencing (as in a lot tougher) we might see some changes.

[Dave Lobster]

Well I know what the Saudi law would do to them (chop chop)...

The policeman is a white (none muslim) guy, isn't he? Wouldn't the saudis give both the boys a few free goats?

[terbang]

The policeman is a white (none muslim) guy, isn't he? Wouldn't the saudis give both the boys a few free goats?

Absolute rubbish, thats just CNN crap, sheesh some of us kiwis have a lot to learn.. Regardless of who they tried to kill, their heads would be rolling on Monday morning. A huge deterrent.

[marty]

Having spent a few years in Auckland I am sure S/Const Mellor was well aware of the dangers of stopping a 1C car on his own at night. Without knowing actually how the events transpired, it is just conjecture, but this event, had he been armed, could easily have gone the way of the Waitara shooting, with 1/2 the country baying for the officer's blood, and the other half for the poor misunderstood kids.

[Scuba_Steve]

I think this sort of stuff is on the increase because the police are scamming and respect is all but gone because of this, re-seperate the cops from the P.I.G.s. (which is something the top cops have expressed they want to do, but the retard 'Crusher Collins' doesn't have an interest in doing, guess it would harm profit) DO NOT give them guns, we've seen over & over again they can't use them effectively its more harm than help & they'll become too reliant on that which they cannot control case in point Hutt Valley dog, Auckland Courier.

Sad thing is this guy seems to be one of the good cops, This is where we need eye for eye justice (see how they like the machete) but I suspect when found as they've got the corrupt piece of shit we call the (in)justice system to go though they'll probably come out with 250hr community service or something equally unjust

[marty]

I think this sort of stuff is on the increase because the police are scamming and respect is all but gone because of this, re-seperate the cops from the P.I.G.s. (which is something the top cops have expressed they want to do, but the retard 'Crusher Collins' doesn't have an interest in doing, guess it would harm profit) DO NOT give them guns, we've seen over & over again they can't use them effectively its more harm than help & they'll become too reliant on that which they cannot control case in point Hutt Valley dog, Auckland Courier.

Sad thing is this guy seems to be one of the good cops, This is where we need eye for eye justice (see how they like the machete) but I suspect when found as they've got the corrupt piece of shit we call the (in)justice system to go though they'll probably come out with 250hr community service or something equally unjust

bitter much?

Sad thing is most of the cops are good cops. Stu Guthrie - good cunt. Murray Stretch - good cunt. Duncan Taylor - good cunt. Derek Wooton - good cunt. The list is long and sad.

Problem is - pull a gun on a scrote bag here and they say - 'go on pig - shoot me'. Unfortunately, however much one would like to, you need a bit more reason than that to double tap someone

[terbang]

Currently flying with a guy who was a LA cop for 20 years. He's a top bloke though a little scarred that he was used in one of the early 'suicide by cop' deaths. Guy with a suicide note in his pocket relentlessly attacked him with machete, he had to shoot.

NZ doesn't want to end up there...

[Bikemad]

we need to organise a day out for the poor misunderstood youth.............take these two fuckheads,add bailey kurariki and chris kahui and take them "fishing"........if you know what i mean

[terbang]

Nah, public beheading, achieves the same result and reminds all the other dickheads out there about whats in store for them if they go down that path.

[scissorhands]

A few years back we had a major P distribution point in a car yard across the road from where I live

I rung the police regarding the prolific late night 5 minute guests, and the German Shepard constantly guarding the rear boundary, the razor wire erected at a dead end minor commercial/residential road, here in Grey Lynn. Nothing was ever done and gangsters kept arriving nightly for the next few years...........

Bullying in NZ schools in hardly attended by school staff, often the victims have to leave sometimes permanently via bullycide.

Gangster themes on TV and in music on government and fairfax media..........., SPCA thumbs up for pittys............, poor national policy involving divide and conquer to facilitate a police state....... brutal sports involving smash em bro and alcohol revenue acceptable and encouraged by leaders...

The masses could be conditioned toward another direction.....but the creation of a police state would not happen in a peaceful well oiled society

Police will need guns, sooner rather than later, but the reasons why, could have been different if the hidden agenda for a police state were different.

So much anger and aggression in our communities, so sad for the officer and his family.

Schools and media need to step up and intervene..... or the conditioning, drugs and diet, that creates these unfortunate blips of rage will continue to produce these 1/50,000 anomalies of policing incidents.

Another Good Samaritan down, while the corrupt keep chugging along

[ynot slow]

Why have pistols in a locked compartment in the car,give the cops heaps of training for arms use,and have the pistol in the holster,maybe the cops get to choose the caliber,ala Clint Eastwood,make his day.

The idea of pistols locked in a car is rediculous,of course the crims will hold till the lone officer gets his weapon out to arrest the crim eh?Usually when they need arming there is no time to wait.

[Dave Lobster]

Absolute rubbish, thats just CNN crap, sheesh some of us kiwis have a lot to learn.. Regardless of who they tried to kill, their heads would be rolling on Monday morning. A huge deterrent.

Not all of us are born and bred Kiwis. I've seen, first hand, what the muslims are capable of. Friends of mine are still in Afganistan and the gulf now.
The Saudis are, worldwide, funding the schools where the muslim children are educated in a way not conducive to western civilisation. The saudis are happy to LOOK like they're doing the right thing, whilst funding the extremist causes worldwide.



Problem is - pull a gun on a scrote bag here and they say - 'go on pig - shoot me'. Unfortunately, however much one would like to, you need a bit more reason than that to double tap someone

Why do you?

[oldrider]

Why have pistols in a locked compartment in the car,give the cops heaps of training for arms use,and have the pistol in the holster,maybe the cops get to choose the caliber,ala Clint Eastwood,make his day.

The idea of pistols locked in a car is rediculous,of course the crims will hold till the lone officer gets his weapon out to arrest the crim eh?Usually when they need arming there is no time to wait.

Because this country just keeps on churning out criminal lawyers and PC fuckwitts whether we need them or not! :facepalm:

[SMOKEU]

Not all of us are born and bred Kiwis. I've seen, first hand, what the muslims are capable of. Friends of mine are still in Afganistan and the gulf now.
The Saudis are, worldwide, funding the schools where the muslim children are educated in a way not conducive to western civilisation. The saudis are happy to LOOK like they're doing the right thing, whilst funding the extremist causes worldwide.



What do you expect from a bunch of dune coons?

[marty]

Why do you?

even though Keith Abbot was found 1: no case to answer, 2: not guilty on a private prosecution, how much fucking drama and tree hugging hand wringing went on to get to that stage - imagine one of those every month or two

[Edbear]

even though Keith Abbot was found 1: no case to answer, 2: not guilty on a private prosecution, how much fucking drama and tree hugging hand wringing went on to get to that stage - imagine one of those every month or two

One has only to look at the number of KB members who are anti-Police to understand how impossible the job is. Everyone gets up in arms about this kind of attack and "everyone" gets up in arms if a Cop beats up or shoots a criminal. You're truly damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I think there is a groundswell of support for the Police that there is too much of this happening, more violent and more frequent. So maybe, just maybe, we may start seeing a few more defending the Police actions.

What always amazes me, is whenever you see on TV a cop pulling his pistol, he never uses it and usually re-holsters it to tackle the offender physically. The criminal never seems to respond and obey just because he is facing a cop pointing a pistol at him... :blink:

[Ocean1]

One has only to look at the number of KB members who are anti-Police to understand how impossible the job is.

Think the sentiment you refer to isn't so much anti police, it's anti authoritarian bullshit. If the laws were fewer and less intrusive and the police less driven to small minded but profitable nitpickery then people wouldn't have cause to feel somewhat grumpy with the fuzz in general eh?

[Edbear]

Think the sentiment you refer to isn't so much anti police, it's anti authoritarian bullshit. If the laws were fewer and less intrusive and the police less driven to small minded but profitable nitpickery then people wouldn't have cause to feel somewhat grumpy with the fuzz in general eh?

Oh, I dunno. It's all a part of living in a society. You're never going to please everybody and at times it seems you'll never please anybody, but I feel too much emphasis is nitpicking and not enough relax and get a life attitude. I mean, if I can live to age 52 with no major hassles with anybody and a good relationship with the Law is it that I'm exceptional or just one of those who get on and don't sweat the small stuff?

[mattian]

bet $5.00 it was a couple of maori

yes. Because us white people are incapable of doing such things aren't we.

[Spyke]

Think the sentiment you refer to isn't so much anti police, it's anti authoritarian bullshit. If the laws were fewer and less intrusive and the police less driven to small minded but profitable nitpickery then people wouldn't have cause to feel somewhat grumpy with the fuzz in general eh?

spot on, that is what i think is happening.
most put up with it but cops probably do lose some respect.

[terbang]

Not all of us are born and bred Kiwis. I've seen, first hand, what the muslims are capable of. Friends of mine are still in Afganistan and the gulf now.
The Saudis are, worldwide, funding the schools where the muslim children are educated in a way not conducive to western civilisation. The saudis are happy to LOOK like they're doing the right thing, whilst funding the extremist causes worldwide.


Yeah yeah more CNN bullshit. You said Saudi, not Afghanistan . I live in Saudi, am a resident of Saudi and have even been to "chop chop square" the bottom line, they do obey their laws (note I said their laws not yours or your mates in afghanistan). And the point of my post was about their law and order, not their ideals which are certainly different to many western civilizations. I think you might need to go there, live there and actually meet a few Saudis before you can spout your views here about how they run their country.

As a New Zealander of European descent and a resident of Saudi Arabia, I see both ends of the spectrum when it comes to law and order. The Kiwis are way too PC and touchy feeley and shitheads (such as this thread's ones) are punished way too lightly. However in Saudi, where they cut heads off publicly, are perhaps a little too harsh. Perhaps somewhere in the middle is where we should be as it is obvious that our two shitheads have little respect or fear of retribution for attacking a cop with a machete.

[Scuba_Steve]

yes. Because us white people are incapable of doing such things aren't we.

no we just pay a couple of Maoris to do it for us is all :shutup:

[PrincessBandit]

Yep pretty horrfic, attempted murder charges to come I hope, multiple strikes from machetes isn't assault.

Yes, the picture tends not to suggest "oops, my machete happened to slip in my hand..."225871
The other photo on the internet is even worse. But there will be some slickshit defense lawyer who will manage to get them off on some technicality...

[scumdog]

And as usual with car thieves they 'drove it like they stole it' - off the road as so many seem to do..

So I guess it gives a new meaning to that expression.

"Yeah bro, nicked the car and drove it like I stole it"

"Ah, so ya crashed it then eh?"

"Yeah bro, sucks eh"

[Crazy Steve]

bet $5.00 it was a couple of maori

Yeah your right....And one 14yr old and 18yr old pair of Maori boys fckd him up pretty good aye ! ! !

Good job that policeman getting delt to, I've had my fair amount of hidings in police custody and false charges.

Sounds like paybacks are a bitch !

Crazy Steve.

[JimO]

Yeah your right....And one 14yr old and 18yr old pair of Maori boys fckd him up pretty good aye ! ! !

Good job that policeman getting delt to, I've had my fair amount of hidings in police custody and false charges.

Sounds like paybacks are a bitch !

Crazy Steve.

difference is you probably deserved it

[scumdog]

Yeah your right....And one 14yr old and 18yr old pair of Maori boys fckd him up pretty good aye ! ! !

Good job that policeman getting delt to, I've had my fair amount of hidings in police custody and false charges.

Sounds like paybacks are a bitch !

Crazy Steve.

Ah, so YOU'RE the 14 year old eh!!!:blink:

[98tls]

No doubt theres a whole fucking army of do gooders gearing up to defend the 14 year olds actions,mums a crackhead dads in jail grandad abused him blah blah blah:violin:Give the fuckers a needle and be done with it.Worse still to come though eh wait until the unsmackable generation get up and going.Do gooders and tree huggers:facepalm:Fucked up a perfectly good country.:shit:whoops forgot the immigration dept.Thoughts to the copper and his family and hope his mates beat the crap out the cunts in the cells,on a daily basis.

[98tls]

Yeah your right....And one 14yr old and 18yr old pair of Maori boys fckd him up pretty good aye ! ! !

Good job that policeman getting delt to, I've had my fair amount of hidings in police custody and false charges.

Sounds like paybacks are a bitch !

Crazy Steve.

:violin:obviously the hidings were not good enough your still able to cry like a bitch.

[Kickaha]

difference is you probably deserved it

No probably about it


:violin:obviously the hidings were not good enough you're still able to cry like a bitch.

It's the only thing he has a talent for

[schrodingers cat]

I agree with the earlier poster who basically said that love them or hate them, Police are our representatives and a powerful symbol that we choose to live in a country with laws and a degree of civilisation.

Unfortunately there seems to be a generation who believe the coolest thing you can do is attack police.

Irrespective of your politics re police and law enforcement it is unacceptable behaviour to attack another person with a machete.

[red mermaid]

From the photo it would appear the mongrels noted that a vest was worn so hit the officer round the head where he was less protected.

All the best to S/Constable Mellor of the Central District Highway Patrol, who has over 30 years of serving NZ in the MoT and Police.

[Genestho]

Oh but wait for it, the teenagers are good kids off the rails, it's not their fault, agree, nod, show remorse and repeat.

[BoristheBiter]

I agree with the earlier poster who basically said that love them or hate them, Police are our representatives and a powerful symbol that we choose to live in a country with laws and a degree of civilisation.

Unfortunately there seems to be a generation who believe the coolest thing you can do is attack police.

Irrespective of your politics re police and law enforcement it is unacceptable behaviour to attack another person with a machete.

It's not just one generation, it's at least two.

It is now cool to be generally scum, look at all the shit that is on the telly.
Had a mate come over from oz and he could believe the low morals on the tv at the moment.

Its about time we went the way of the states, pull everyone out and handcuff them then find out what the story is. Oh at gunpoint as well.

[Maha]

:violin:obviously the hidings were not good enough your still able to cry like a bitch.

Steve sits down to take a piss too.....:facepalm:

[red mermaid]

Does he sit down to shit cause he is certainly full of it.



Steve sits down to take a piss too.....:facepalm:

[Grasshopperus]

It is now cool to be generally scum, look at all the shit that is on the telly.
Had a mate come over from oz and he could believe the low morals on the tv at the moment.

Yeah, it's real bottom of the barrel stuff. However, Aussie has a local industry that glamorizes the crooks too, lookup a show called 'Underbelly'

[98tls]

Yeah, it's real bottom of the barrel stuff. However, Aussie has a local industry that glamorizes the crooks too, lookup a show called 'Underbelly'

:shit:Strange that,we to have an industry that looks after scumbuckets,its called Legal Aid.Once theve done there bit there handed over to another industry called Social Welfare who ensures they lack for nothing whilst doing/paying nothing,all very cosy.

[Maha]

Does he sit down to shit cause he is certainly full of it.

Ever tried doing that standing up?...:corn:

[scissorhands]

Ever tried doing that standing up?...:corn:


A girl once asked if I've ever tried sucking a cock. I said yeah...

Nearly broke my back

[Crazy Steve]

difference is you probably deserved it

Yeah funny that, and so did he !

What goes around comes around...Karmas a bitch !

Crazy Steve.

[Crazy Steve]

Ah, so YOU'RE the 14 year old eh!!!:blink:


No ! !

You might be next Scummy, keep your guard up dude and get them before they get you...:)

There does seem to be more and more of this happening, could it be the fact that the standard Police officer weighs no more than 70kgs ? ?

Anyone remember the case in Botnay when a female officer was beaten by a teenager in a towel after he ran away from his shower..She was beaten quite badly !


Crazy Steve.

[SMOKEU]

No ! !


There does seem to be more and more of this happening, could it be the fact that the standard Police officer weighs no more than 70kgs ? ?

Crazy Steve.

Think about what would happen if a fat tub of lard were to chase after a criminal.

[Crazy Steve]

Or the other recent one in Ngaruawahia where the policeman was king hit and left on the side of the road unconsince...After the person he was questioning decieded they were bored of what he had to say to them !

Crazy Steve.

[Crazy Steve]

Think about what would happen if a fat tub of lard were to chase after a criminal.

No problem ! Just squeeze the gas pedal down further.

Crazy Steve.

[98tls]

No problem ! Just squeeze the gas pedal down further.

Crazy Steve.

Throw the meds out the window wait awhile,once the depression has a firm hold simply listen to the voices find a rope and fly.

[Scouse]

Maori or not, they were 14 and 18. "oh my father was never there, he's in jail and my mums in rehab and auntie tried to look after us between customers"... And they will get a minimal sentencing.

Well I know what the Saudi law would do to them (chop chop)...

I'm not convinced arming our cops is all of the answer, but perhaps combined with tougher sentencing (as in a lot tougher) we might see some changes.Hmm interesting article on chop chop square here http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2009.05-field-notes-chop-chop-square/

[Grubber]

Yeah your right....And one 14yr old and 18yr old pair of Maori boys fckd him up pretty good aye ! ! !

Good job that policeman getting delt to, I've had my fair amount of hidings in police custody and false charges.

Sounds like paybacks are a bitch !

Crazy Steve.

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck it usually is a . . . .

Something tells me this one did smell a bit like an arsehole, so he got treated like one.:yes:

[JimO]

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck it usually is a . . . .

Something tells me this one did smell a bit like an arsehole, so he got treated like one.:yes:

perhaps next time these two are out and about they give your grandad a beating cos he also smells a bit like a arsole, would that be ok with you??

[mattian]

The Prime Minister on Breakfast this morning was saying, he was reluctant to arm all police officers because that puts them in the position of making the decision of having to use it........... WTF !!!:facepalm: God forbid that we ever put our police officers in a position where they have to make decisions!!!!!
Was the stupidest thing I have heard John Key say about the topic.

[oldrider]

Hmm interesting article on chop chop square here http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2009.05-field-notes-chop-chop-square/

The "pendulum" of public influence has swung too far to the PC left in this (Socialist) country!

Politicians here almost all claim to dwell in the centre of the political spectrum but that is far from true in reality!

It is time for the caring majority of adults to save our children by shouting:
ENOUGH ALREADY!
and actually doing something about it! :yes:

[Teflon]

Why have pistols in a locked compartment in the car,give the cops heaps of training for arms use,and have the pistol in the holster,maybe the cops get to choose the caliber,ala Clint Eastwood,make his day.

The idea of pistols locked in a car is rediculous,of course the crims will hold till the lone officer gets his weapon out to arrest the crim eh?Usually when they need arming there is no time to wait.



Victorian Police - shoot first, ask questions later. If you act like a cock, you get shot..

It's been a while since I've lived over there, but they made the news worth watching.

[scissorhands]

In Sweden and Denmark (light socialist countries) the crime rate is abysmally low!

When NZ policy emulated these socialist nations our crime rate was very low too!

Now its high because we emulate US policies!!!



Saudi Arabia is a barbaric, medieval kingdom. If countries were really invaded for human rights violations, rather than for oil and resources, it would be near the top of the list!

I would be beheaded and so would you!

[Dave Lobster]

Yeah yeah more CNN bullshit. You said Saudi, not Afghanistan . I live in Saudi, am a resident of Saudi and have even been to "chop chop square" the bottom line, they do obey their laws (note I said their laws not yours or your mates in afghanistan). And the point of my post was about their law and order, not their ideals which are certainly different to many western civilizations. I think you might need to go there, live there and actually meet a few Saudis before you can spout your views here about how they run their country.
snip - the sancimonious bullshit..

So, are you saying that the saudis don't fund the muslim schools where the terrorists are bred?
This'll be good..

[terbang]

So, are you saying that the saudis don't fund the muslim schools where the terrorists are bred?
This'll be good..

Not at all, some of those "terrorists" liberated Afghanistan from the Russian and still take up the cause of the palestinian. Though some went astray and attacked americans.

Just in the same way that americans fund the schools that attacked a nation on the rumour of WMD to no real avail other than get control of the oil. But on the flipside they are also liberating Afghanistan from the tyrany of the Taliban (who just happen to be muslims).

It may come as a surprise to you sir that there are generally two sides to a story, not just the CNN version...

[Dave Lobster]

No need to call me sir, I work for a living.

The 'mercins aren't funding terrorist/hate training schools, world wide. The saudis are.
What other side is there to that?

(I've never watched CNN)

[Scuba_Steve]

No need to call me sir, I work for a living.

The 'mercins aren't funding terrorist/hate training schools, world wide. The saudis are.
What other side is there to that?

(I've never watched CNN)

Nope but the " 'mercins" did fund the Taliban & a few other "terrorist" groups worldwide. Tho it could be said their own school system is somewhat of a training school as your taught to love your country at all costs & follow 'Uncle Sam' blindly without question lest you be non-patriotic so they to are conditioned.

[terbang]

What other side is there to that?


The side that your blinkers will not allow you to see...

[Dave Lobster]

The side that your blinkers will not allow you to see...

Enlighten then.. I'm struggling to see the good side to any foreign state funded school anywhere. Especially one that preaches religion/hate.

[avgas]

oh my father was never there, he's in jail and my mums in rehab and auntie tried to look after us between customers
boohoo
they can cry me a river.
Anyone whom does not live their own life - deserves no time of mine.

This includes those whom cry Waitangi, WWIIism or even broken home syndrome.
Why should I give a fuck about your problems? I have my own thank you very much.

[imdying]

The 'mercins aren't funding terrorist/hate training schools, world wide. The saudis are.One reason the Americans are having a hard time kicking the Talibans arse is because they paid their top guys to train them in the first place. The USA is indeed one of the largest funders of terrorist groups, the only thing is they're called rebels; it won't be for a few years before those particular groups are renamed terrorists.

[Grubber]

perhaps next time these two are out and about they give your grandad a beating cos he also smells a bit like a arsole, would that be ok with you??

I was actually talkin about Crazy Steve. I'm not quite that stupid yet.... shush now!

[freedom-wedge]

It's not just one generation, it's at least two.

It is now cool to be generally scum, look at all the shit that is on the telly.
Had a mate come over from oz and he could believe the low morals on the tv at the moment.

Its about time we went the way of the states, pull everyone out and handcuff them then find out what the story is. Oh at gunpoint as well.

Apply that to you for a routine traffic matter, on your own street, bent over the bonnet of a car, with everyone who knows you looking on, and wondering whats going on and what sort of person you really are for that to be happening. you might forgive them once but lets says your a dodgy looking fella and and your cuffed at gunpoint again becuase you disagree that your tyre dosnt have enough tread, you will loose respect for em, Those fuckheads taking to that copper are nothing more than scum probably bread from scum, he should of got some help before he pulled them over I think, regardless its a hearts and minds war out there for the police and their loosing it by their own actions on occasions as well as incidents like this.

No to them conducting investigations at gun point, its only going to go bad from there on in.

[terbang]

Back to the thread, watching breakfast (yeah I know tragic, but I'm off work and bored) and there is an almost overwhelming opinion that police should be armed. There was some rather excited police association spokesman being interviewed, who was almost frothing at the mouth with his enthusiasm for it. Though I note John Key is wisely being cautious there.

I guess all of us harbour some sort of view that if our two "boys" had turned up with a bullet between their eyes, then it would be a timely reminder of the consequence of attacking a cop. Not to mention the removal of a certain kind from the gene pool.

However for the public to have accepted that, the cop would still have to be all beaten up to prove that he did it as a last resort to save his arse.

Chatting to my mate who was an LA cop and he still reckons our cops should remain unarmed. He admires NZ police for having the fortitude to deal with crims in a different way other than "shoot em up just in case". His view is that if someone wants to kill a cop, they will do it and will do it with the surprise that will not give the cop a chance to draw his weapon. And if someone is confronting a cop with a gun, then he is unlikely to really want to kill him and well trained negotiation skills will turn things around. His view is that the crims always get bigger guns than the cops and are less scrupulous about how they use them. It becomes a spiral.

Coming from a guy who was armed and policed a notoriously tough part of the world for 20 years, its worth listening to.

Strangely enough, in the US the cops do shoot crims and they do have the death penalty and they do chuck a lot into jail for a long time as well. And yet they still have some terrible crime stats.
So whats the answer..? More respect in the society perhaps?

[oldrider]

More respect in the society perhaps?

If the crims (our kids) have no "self" respect, how can we expect them to respect anyone else's rights!

Children beg us to set clear boundaries for them but when they test them there is no consequence!

How the fuck can they learn from the crap examples set by their so called teachers and leaders?

I.E. The people they look to to teach them self respect! :facepalm:

[Genestho]

So whats the answer..? More respect in the society perhaps?


Respect is part of it, alot is down to parenting, being too busy or too slack to earn the right to be one.

Respect doesn't come out of a pretty box, it is taught by parents and extended family, not teachers as some would seem to think.

Being available, being home with kids, cultivating that relationship - teaching the basics, manners, common courtesy, teaching them to take responsibility for actions, to be aware of consequences, enforcing consequences at home and staying on top of it!

[Swoop]

There was some rather excited police association spokesman being interviewed, who was almost frothing at the mouth with his enthusiasm for it.
That would be the resident looney, Greg O'Connor (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/union-wants-gun-every-officer-s-hip-3966827).
He comes out with some bloody weird shit at times.

[terbang]

I'm a regular Kiwi raised in the 20th century with the basic Christian values like most. However I have also been fortunate through my line of work to have lived in other societies. In particular the world of the Sunni Muslim. One of the first things that is very noticeable in these older societies is that things are much more based on respect for each other.

Yes there are the protagonists of "everything muslim is bad" who will never agree with me. But most of those have only been there in their armchairs. And this post is not in support of a religion, but rather an old world.

But one of the first things that we (expats in the old world) have to learn is to be respectful of them. Actions like pointing our fingers, raising our voices and using unpleasant language are considered deeply disrespectful. Its the way the society runs and once you learn to be respectful to others, you will get it in return and your world becomes safe and easy.

A lot of my dealings there, including my employment contracts, are done on a handshake only and have never been reneged upon.

The Hidri year is currently the year 1432 and our Gregorian date is 2010. It summs a few things up and whilst we have supposedly become a much more advanced and civilized society, we have also dropped a few important bits along the way. Respect for others that starts within the family, exudes into the society, into business and into the way people go about their lives. The concept of respect for others can sometimes be learnt fairly harshly, especially for those who openly show disrespect.

However it seems to be one of the things that we have watered down or forgotten along the way.

Hard to believe I guess, and I would never have thought so myself, but I learned more about the basic value of respect for others from a society that is generally considered as being primitive, medieval and barbaric.

Maybe in our advanced and enlightened society we need to revisit some of the basic values of co-habitating with each other. One in particular, respect for others...

[BoristheBiter]

Apply that to you for a routine traffic matter, on your own street, bent over the bonnet of a car, with everyone who knows you looking on, and wondering whats going on and what sort of person you really are for that to be happening. you might forgive them once but lets says your a dodgy looking fella and and your cuffed at gunpoint again becuase you disagree that your tyre dosnt have enough tread, you will loose respect for em, Those fuckheads taking to that copper are nothing more than scum probably bread from scum, he should of got some help before he pulled them over I think, regardless its a hearts and minds war out there for the police and their loosing it by their own actions on occasions as well as incidents like this.

No to them conducting investigations at gun point, its only going to go bad from there on in.

More than happy to if it means the friends i have that are cops come home safe every day.
That cop would have pulled them over as a routine traffic.

You are right to some point they should not be working one up at any time of the day or night.

[BoristheBiter]

I'm a regular Kiwi raised in the 20th century with the basic Christian values like most. However I have also been fortunate through my line of work to have lived in other societies. In particular the world of the Sunni Muslim. One of the first things that is very noticeable in these older societies is that things are much more based on respect for each other.

Yes there are the protagonists of "everything muslim is bad" who will never agree with me. But most of those have only been there in their armchairs.

But one of the first things that we (expats in the old world) have to learn is to be respectful of them. Actions like pointing our fingers, raising our voices and using unpleasant language are considered deeply disrespectful. Its the way the society runs and once you learn to be respectful to others, you will get it in return and your world becomes safe and easy.

A lot of my dealings there, including my employment contracts, are done on a handshake only and have never been reneged upon.

The Hidri year is currently the year 1432 and our Gregorian date is 2010. It summs a few things up and whilst we have supposedly become a much more advanced and civilized society, we have also dropped a few important bits along the way. Respect for others that starts within the family, exudes into the society, into business and into the way people go about their lives. The concept of respect for others can sometimes be learnt fairly harshly, especially for those who openly show disrespect.

However it seems to be one of the things that we have watered down or forgotten along the way.

Hard to believe I guess, and I would never have thought so myself, but I learned more about the basic value of respect for others from a society that is generally considered as being primitive, medieval and barbaric.

Maybe in our advanced and enlightened society we need to revisit some of the basic values of co-habitating with each other. One in particular, respect for others...

You also forgot respect for their elders and not just put them in a old folks home and forget about them.

[terbang]

You also forgot respect for their elders and not just put them in a old folks home and forget about them.

You are bang on there, the old fellas do know a bit and certainly deserve our respect. Yet right now, we have teenagers attacking an elder (relative to their ages) who wasn't unreasonably doing his job. Stopping a stolen car.

Then stealing a car doesn't show much respect for the owner doesn't it...

Nah fuck em, we don't need scumbags like them in our society.

[Dave Lobster]

You forgot about making sure that women are oppressed at every opportunity, including being stoned to death for 'adultery', as though they shouldn't be allowed to sleep with whoever they damn well choose to.
Old world/dark ages. There may way be a few things that the white man has left behind. There's considerably more that god fearing types have left behind.

[terbang]

You forgot about making sure that women are oppressed at every opportunity, including being stoned to death for 'adultery', as though they shouldn't be allowed to sleep with whoever they damn well choose to.
Old world/dark ages. There may way be a few things that the white man has left behind. There's considerably more that god fearing types have left behind.

So you say from the other side of the world. I know lots of muslim ladies and they are more than happy with the way things are there, in fact they are often the driving force from behind the scenes. The blokes often call it a pussy driven society. I speak their language and have boldly asked the tough questions about the opression and they just don't see themselves as opressed. One comment from a sharp young lady was "how can you call my Abaya and hajib opression when you have the commercialization of the female body in your society" "you sell cigarettes using the female form"


I often drive past a construction site (http://http://www.constructionweekonline.com/saudiarabia/project3.php) in Riyadh that is to be a huge university for women, yes Saudi women.
Without looking like an armchair critic from the comfort of my NZ lounge, this just doesn't look the oppression of women at any opportunity.

[The Pastor]

A gun would not of helped this cop, he was attacked from behind. I'd challenge anyone to be able to draw a weapon, load and fire it with a machette in there freeking head.

Some people are damn retarded.

[Dave Lobster]

So you say from the other side of the world. I know lots of muslim ladies and they are more than happy with the way things are there, in fact they are often the driving force from behind the scenes. The blokes often call it a pussy driven society. I speak their language and have boldly asked the tough questions about the opression and they just don't see themselves as opressed. One comment from a sharp young lady was "how can you call my Abaya and hajib opression when you have the commercialization of the female body in your society" "you sell cigarettes using the female form"


I often drive past a construction site (http://http://www.constructionweekonline.com/saudiarabia/project3.php) in Riyadh that is to be a huge university for women, yes Saudi women.
Without looking like an armchair critic from the comfort of my NZ lounge, this just doesn't look the oppression of women at any opportunity.

Stoning them to death for adultery isn't oppression then?

Keep taking them.. keep taking them..

[terbang]

Stoning them to death for adultery isn't oppression then?

Keep taking them.. keep taking them..

Narp not oppression its punishment. As is the punishment for homosexuality and many other things that we may see as normal. Thats their law, its not like ours but never the less it is the law. And we should respect that some people are different.

I'm not taking them, just easily putting up an argument to someone who clearly has relatively little subject knowledge and yet embarrassingly blathers to the world their ignorance. Keep it up الأحمق

[Maha]

What I find most shocking about this story and I am sure some (if not most of you) will agree is the fact that the poor bastard was posted to Taihape. From West Auckland no less! :gob:

[terbang]

What I find most shocking about this story and I am sure some (if not most of you) will agree is the fact that the poor bastard was posted to Taihape. From West Auckland no less! :gob:

Yup I reckon he's seen some dickheads in his time. Another shocker is the age of the attackers, 14 and 18. At least one of them should have been at home doing his homework. I reckon their parents should join them if they do time...

[jasonu]

Yeah your right....And one 14yr old and 18yr old pair of Maori boys fckd him up pretty good aye ! ! !

Good job that policeman getting delt to, I've had my fair amount of hidings in police custody and false charges.

Sounds like paybacks are a bitch !

Crazy Steve.

Homo!
I'll bet you wear sandles and socks too.


Quote Its about time we went the way of the states, pull everyone out and handcuff them then find out what the story is. Oh at gunpoint as well.

Yep that works nicely. Add in the threat of being tazered and most of the potential crims shut the fuck up and do as they are told.

[jasonu]

In Sweden and Denmark (light socialist countries) the crime rate is abysmally low!

When NZ policy emulated these socialist nations our crime rate was very low too!

Now its high because we emulate US policies!!!...


Which policies are you referring to?

[Edbear]

What I find most shocking about this story and I am sure some (if not most of you) will agree is the fact that the poor bastard was posted to Taihape. From West Auckland no less! :gob:

Taihape is a great place, Jill was born there... :innocent:

One would expect it to be a nice semi-retirement posting, not one where you get killed! :blink:

[Maha]

Taihape is a great place, Jill was born there... :innocent:

One would expect it to be a nice semi-retirement posting, not one where you get killed! :blink:

Yes and My parents spent ther wedding night at the Gretna...:yes:

[Edbear]

Yes and My parents spent ther wedding night at the Gretna...:yes:

Ah yes, the (in)famous Gretna Hotel... Those walls could tell some stories! :yes:

[Maha]

Ah yes, the (in)famous Gretna Hotel... Those walls could tell some stories! :yes:

They were enroute to the Chateau but I gues they just couldn't wait.....:facepalm:

[jimbo600]

NZ already is there bro.

[JimO]

...............................

[avgas]

Ah yes, the (in)famous Gretna Hotel... Those walls could tell some stories! :yes:
It would sound like vuvuzela's

[_Shrek_]

if the cop was armed the chances are that he would not have the injuries he has now simply because he was armed, because the two DH's would have given it some thought first
now because of our pc brigade most of the last two generations have been told it's ok do what you feel is right and/or it's not your fault
& sitting on here ranting & raving is going to do shit about it
start to change things by voting, teaching parents it's ok to disciplin their kids, :spanking: & the list goes on

all the best to the :Police: & his family

[JimO]

to be really safe the police have to have 2 man teams in places like this, of course the country cant afford this but the country can afford to keep whole generations of bludgers in beer money and cheap housing

[scumdog]

to be really safe the police have to have 2 man teams in places like this, of course the country cant afford this but the country can afford to keep whole generations of bludgers in beer money and cheap housing

Hmm, you have a point...

[Crazy Steve]

Hmm, you have a point...

Hey scummy today I brought a Gun...9mm and I can't shoot straight.

Are you concerned ? ?

Crazy Steve.

[JimO]

Hey scummy today I brought a Gun...9mm and I can't shoot straight.

Are you concerned ? ?

Crazy Steve.

does your mum know your on the internet?

[Roger]

Hey scummy today I brought a Gun...9mm and I can't shoot straight.

Are you concerned ? ?

Crazy Steve.

:tugger: :facepalm: & you wonder why people want cops armed

[BoristheBiter]

Hey scummy today I brought a Gun...9mm and I can't shoot straight.

Are you concerned ? ?

Crazy Steve.

Not me, because its not real just like you, just the poor imagination of a deluded loser troller, and not a good one at that.

[Scuba_Steve]

if the cop was armed the chances are that he would not have the injuries he has now simply because he was armed, because the two DH's would have given it some thought first


This is where I'd disagree with you & where this whole "arm police" is a knee jerk reaction, he was blind-sided with a machete I would say if he was armed he would have still been blind-sided with a machete only then (knowing he was "packing") the gun would of been taken & most likely used against the cop, meaning instead of a badly injured cop we would now have a dead one.

What the police in NZ need is CQC training there is very little need for cops to carry guns in NZ.

[Banditbandit]

This is where I'd disagree with you & where this whole "arm police" is a knee jerk reaction, he was blind-sided with a machete I would say if he was armed he would have still been blind-sided with a machete only then (knowing he was "packing") the gun would of been taken & most likely used against the cop, meaning instead of a badly injured cop we would now have a dead one.

What the police in NZ need is CQC training there is very little need for cops to carry guns in NZ.

Yeah .. I agree ... The quickest way to get an illegal gun in New Zealand ?

Hit a cop on the head, take his keys and raid the locked boxes in the car ...

It's gonna happen ...

[Edbear]

This is where I'd disagree with you & where this whole "arm police" is a knee jerk reaction, he was blind-sided with a machete I would say if he was armed he would have still been blind-sided with a machete only then (knowing he was "packing") the gun would of been taken & most likely used against the cop, meaning instead of a badly injured cop we would now have a dead one.

What the police in NZ need is CQC training there is very little need for cops to carry guns in NZ.

Exactly. Also if he hadn't turned his back on them it may well have not occured, as they are obviously cowards and wouldn't attack face on. Arming only has a deterrent effect if the scumbags know the Cop will use it and that means the Police have to know they have the support of TPTB and the community.

I think most coppers know how to handle themselves face to face, it's part of their training, but the biggest difference will come when the courts stop being wimpy-wet-bus-ticket-slappers and start making the punishment fit the crime! See my thread on this.

[Toaster]

Being armed wouldn't help when you turn your back on the suspect

Very true.

FIRST rule of training - NEVER let anyone get behind you.... EVER.

Personally if I was still in the job, I would carry a firearm to ensure I had the best array possible of available tools to do my job, protect myself and the lives and wellbeing of others, including the public.

Yes any weapon can be used against an officer, but that is no reason to leave them less equipped for a dangerous job that few have the guts to do in this day and age.

[terbang]

Cop has no gun, crim gets machete and the cop gets done.

Cops get guns and protocol for their use. Crims also get guns with no protocol whatsoever. Cops still get done.

I reckon safety in numbers with the right equipment would make a difference. Two armed and well trained cops are certainly going to be much more effective in this (this thread) situation.

[Crazy Steve]

Not me, because its not real just like you, just the poor imagination of a deluded loser troller, and not a good one at that.

It's real alright ! I've been drinking bourbon all night and about to go out into town and use it !

Can't decide if I'm going for a shooting spree at the local school or police station ??

Which one would you chose Sir ?

Crazy Steve.

[BoristheBiter]

It's real alright ! I've been drinking bourbon all night and about to go out into town and use it !

Can't decide if I'm going for a shooting spree at the local school or police station ??

Which one would you chose Sir ?

Crazy Steve.

Oh i'm glad i don't have choices like that anymore, i finished GTA when i was 12, so at 14 your a little behind but then thats the way you like :sick:

[BoristheBiter]

Cop has no gun, crim gets machete and the cop gets done.

Cops get guns and protocol for their use. Crims also get guns with no protocol whatsoever. Cops still get done.

I reckon safety in numbers with the right equipment would make a difference. Two armed and well trained cops are certainly going to be much more effective in this (this thread) situation.

I refer back to my first post.

"Its about time we went the way of the states, pull everyone out and handcuff them then find out what the story is. Oh at gunpoint as well."

[Edbear]

Very true.

FIRST rule of training - NEVER let anyone get behind you.... EVER.

Personally if I was still in the job, I would carry a firearm to ensure I had the best array possible of available tools to do my job, protect myself and the lives and wellbeing of others, including the public.

Yes any weapon can be used against an officer, but that is no reason to leave them less equipped for a dangerous job that few have the guts to do in this day and age.

I was talking to a local cop yesterday and expressed my sympathies for what had happened. It does affect them. He put a brave face on it and was reassuring but it doesn't take a psychologist to see how they feel about the increasing violence towards Police and in society in general.

As for doing their job, I doubt any of the detractor's here would even want to accompany a patrol at night, let alone do the job itself...

[scissorhands]

I refer back to my first post.

"Its about time we went the way of the states, pull everyone out and handcuff them then find out what the story is. Oh at gunpoint as well."

That will make or society worse. Cant anyone see the connection with US style policy, media and conditioning and US style crime statistics and gangster motive in the NZ young.

Hands up children and those not able to make the connection

[Scuba_Steve]

I refer back to my first post.

"Its about time we went the way of the states, pull everyone out and handcuff them then find out what the story is. Oh at gunpoint as well."

Why don't we incapacitate everyone pulled over? after all any motorist out there could be this crazy steve guy, don't wanna take risks right? :facepalm:

If you like the idea of a police state feel free to move to L.A. I myself prefer NOT to be cavity searched or handcuffed & beaten with sticks "just because!".

[BoristheBiter]

That will make or society worse. Cant anyone see the connection with US style policy, media and conditioning and US style crime statistics and gangster motive in the NZ young.

Hands up children and those not able to make the connection

But it will stop the cops getting bashed. if not then the crims get shot and thats just good riddance to bad rubbish. w

win/win i say.

[scissorhands]

But it will stop the cops getting bashed. if not then the crims get shot and thats just good riddance to bad rubbish. w

win/win i say.

Your child 16 years old walking home pissed from a school party destroys a letterbox. Cop unholsters, kid is drunk and stupid, bang bang

[BoristheBiter]

Why don't we incapacitate everyone pulled over? after all any motorist out there could be this crazy steve guy, don't wanna take risks right? :facepalm:

If you like the idea of a police state feel free to move to L.A. I myself prefer NOT to be cavity searched or handcuffed & beaten with sticks "just because!".

I like the idea of being able to leave my house and car unlocked and it still being there in one piece when i return, i like the idea of going out for a walk at night and not being accosted by some little shit who thinks he's all that.
Those days are long gone and the sooner you except that and deal with it the better it will be.

[BoristheBiter]

Your child 16 years old walking home pissed from a school party destroys a letterbox. Cop unholsters, kid is drunk and stupid, bang bang

More likely to be 16 year old walking home pissed from a school party destroys a letterbox gets stopped by cop, his mates turn up and give the cop the bash.

[Scuba_Steve]

I like the idea of being able to leave my house and car unlocked and it still being there in one piece when i return, i like the idea of going out for a walk at night and not being accosted by some little shit who thinks he's all that.
Those days are long gone and the sooner you except that and deal with it the better it will be.

but you like the idea of randomly being beaten by cops just because they were bored? like I said you like police state move to L.A. the L.A.P.D. will be more than happy to beat you with sticks for no reason at all.

[BoristheBiter]

but you like the idea of randomly being beaten by cops just because they were bored? like I said you like police state move to L.A. the L.A.P.D. will be more than happy to beat you with sticks for no reason at all.

:facepalm: because letting the police use tools for protecting themselves will always end in everyone getting bashed.
I think you need to stop watching so much TV and join us in the real world.

[Scuba_Steve]

:facepalm: because letting the police use tools for protecting themselves will always end in everyone getting bashed.
I think you need to stop watching so much TV and join us in the real world.

your here saying EVERYONE should be handcuffed & held up at gun point, that's not cops protecting themselves that's L.A.P.D. style police brutality.

Maybee you need to watch the doco on the S.W.A.T. they themselves say arming police has little effect as crims will always outgun them
cops get pistols, crims get shotguns
cops get shotguns, crims get ak's & vests
cops get m4's & vests, crims get armour piecing bullets & RPG's

as said from the S.W.A.T. team themselves, get the point! military style CQC training (proper training to not like this gun/car training we currently give them) is the best thing we could give our cops to protect themselves

[Toaster]

crims get shot and thats just good riddance to bad rubbish. w

win/win i say.


I would HAPPILY sponsor the bullets!!

[Swoop]

:facepalm: because letting the police use tools for protecting themselves will always end in everyone getting bashed.
I think you need to stop watching so much TV and join us in the real world.
Why just the police?
Why not approved members of the public. It is working in the US of A. Staggering amounts of concealed carry permits are being issued.

Arming the police, means that it is "too unsafe" to be out in public without a firearm.

[BoristheBiter]

your here saying EVERYONE should be handcuffed & held up at gun point, that's not cops protecting themselves that's L.A.P.D. style police brutality.

Maybee you need to watch the doco on the S.W.A.T. they themselves say arming police has little effect as crims will always outgun them
cops get pistols, crims get shotguns
cops get shotguns, crims get ak's & vests
cops get m4's & vests, crims get armour piecing bullets & RPG's

as said from the S.W.A.T. team themselves, get the point! military style CQC training (proper training to not like this gun/car training we currently give them) is the best thing we could give our cops to protect themselves

What a complete cop out (pun not intended).
You really live in a land of make believe, the crims are all ready armed, this is just about the cops protecting themselves.

[BoristheBiter]

Why just the police?
Why not approved members of the public. It is working in the US of A. Staggering amounts of concealed carry permits are being issued.

Arming the police, means that it is "too unsafe" to be out in public without a firearm.

You'll get no disagreement from me.

[Scuba_Steve]

What a complete cop out (pun not intended).
You really live in a land of make believe, the crims are all ready armed, this is just about the cops protecting themselves.

:blink: Your one of these people who think you need to start a war to bring peace aren't you?

[scissorhands]

:blink: Your one of these people who think you need to start a war to bring peace aren't you?

sad thing is this type of incisive thinking is prevalent

[BoristheBiter]

:blink: Your one of these people who think you need to start a war to bring peace aren't you?

No i'm one of these people that believe that the police should be able to defend and protect themselves.

if someone comes at you with a knife/bat/gun what you going to do talk to them nicely, give them a cup of tea and tell them you understand their problems?

We have had that stance for the last 11 years and look where we are now, its time some people grew a pair.

[BoristheBiter]

sad thing is this type of incisive thinking is prevalent

No the sad thing is people think that ignoring the problem will make it go away.
Remember the crims care about the law only when they get caught.

[scissorhands]

What causes people to do crimes is more to the point, and the area of concern.

Arming cops is like taking a pill to mask the symptoms, the CAUSE OF THE ILLNESS GOES UNDERGROUND AND COMES OUT STRONGER THAN BEFORE BECAUSE THE CONDITIONS WHICH GREW THE DISEASE ARE LEFT UNATTENDED

[scissorhands]

its time some people grew a pair.

its time some people stopped thinking of balls and start using brains

[BoristheBiter]

What causes people to do crimes is more to the point, and the area of concern.

Arming cops is like taking a pill to mask the symptoms, the CAUSE OF THE ILLNESS GOES UNDERGROUND AND COMES OUT STRONGER THAN BEFORE BECAUSE THE CONDITIONS WHICH GREW THE DISEASE ARE LEFT UNATTENDED

the cause, let me see, people who think that the law doesn't apply to them or they don't give a toss about them in the first place.

You can cry me a river all you like about the poor and the beaten and the damed but at the end of the day we know right from wrong and some people choose to do wrong.

we (well i do) all know of people from good family's that go bad and people from bad family's that go good and at the end of the day it comes down to the choices we make.

AND THERE IS NO NEED TO YELL

[no_8wire]

As expected (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4454449/Accuseds-sister-cries-for-hurt-officer)

As expected, these thugs arent bad kids, but
a "good boy" who had been getting into trouble.

:angry:

How can ones family be so stupid?

[Renko]

The problem here is that rural areas need more than one cop in a car. Back-up could be miles away.

I don't go for the arm all cops thing, I can't see it being helpful. The trouble is that cost is what prevents having a proper solution.

[imdying]

We don't need people who attack police officers with weapons. They should both swing on a rope in Cathedral square for a week.

With a bit of luck they'll kill themselves in custody.

[HenryDorsetCase]

What causes people to do crimes is more to the point, and the area of concern.

Arming cops is like taking a pill to mask the symptoms, the CAUSE OF THE ILLNESS GOES UNDERGROUND AND COMES OUT STRONGER THAN BEFORE BECAUSE THE CONDITIONS WHICH GREW THE DISEASE ARE LEFT UNATTENDED

I;m all for transporting criminals to the Martian Penal Colonies, They can work in the mines there to get resources back to Earth.

[Toaster]

the cause, let me see, people who think that the law doesn't apply to them or they don't give a toss about them in the first place.

You can cry me a river all you like about the poor and the beaten and the damed but at the end of the day we know right from wrong and some people choose to do wrong.

we (well i do) all know of people from good family's that go bad and people from bad family's that go good and at the end of the day it comes down to the choices we make.

AND THERE IS NO NEED TO YELL

Completely agree.

What some of the keyboard judges forget here is what it is actually like to stand alone without backup without the tools to defend oneself against a knife, pipe, bar, machette, the list goes on.

I am sure if they were in that position they would want a firearm too.

Politicians and Police managers: Arm the police and stop pussy-footing around the issue. Give them at least a better chance to survive. Their life matters just as much to them as ours do to us.

[BoristheBiter]

I;m all for transporting criminals to the Martian Penal Colonies, They can work in the mines there to get resources back to Earth.

Hell yes, i can see it now "welcome to mars its like Australia just further from the sun"

[BoristheBiter]

Completely agree.

What some of the keyboard judges forget here is what it is actually like to stand alone without backup without the tools to defend oneself against a knife, pipe, bar, machette, the list goes on.

I am sure if they were in that position they would want a firearm too.

Politicians and Police managers: Arm the police and stop pussy-footing around the issue. Give them at least a better chance to survive. Their life matters just as much to them as ours do to us.

Hopefully when Peter Marshell replaces Howard Broad things will be on the up as Broad is still a Clark lakky, no guts to do whats needed and never backs up the troops. what a complete waste of space he is.

[imdying]

Politicians and Police managers: Arm the police and stop pussy-footing around the issue. Give them at least a better chance to survive. They already have haven't they?

Isn't the real problem that there is no way he should've been stopping a car in the middle of nowhere at night without another officer in the car who has one hand on the radio and another on the lock box?

[scissorhands]

Dont get me wrong, cops need guns now for protection ( and no more working alone), working prisons like Angola are a good idea and I believe in self funding through inmate labour.

Its the causes of the crim creation that are woefully unattended to a much of morons at the top.

The baying for blood by the masses is nothing new and to be expected.

The lack of incisive planning to prevent crim creating is the area that riles me. Cant you see we are being forced down this road by those wanting a police state future?

Why glorify gangster shit on TV and music other than to divide and conquer?

[Toaster]

They already have haven't they?

Isn't the real problem that there is no way he should've been stopping a car in the middle of nowhere at night without another officer in the car who has one hand on the radio and another on the lock box?


These things happen is SECONDS. They need them on their hips. Yes all cars should have two police. My few years in the police was most often in a single manned car. They simply dont have enough Constables and Sergeants on the front lines and too many seconded off to back office roles, admin and projects.

[imdying]

These things happen is SECONDS. They need them on their hips.If they happen in SECONDS, then they're not going to have time to draw a weapon from their hip. One second it's just a quick walk back to the car to conduct standard radio checks, the next it's a crack over the back of the head and their own 9mm in the small of their back.

Where in that time frame do you see an officer being able to draw, arm, aim, and then make a considered decision on whether to shoot or not? Or should every routine traffic stop be conducted with a drawn weapon? Because given the choice between that, and putting another cop in every car, I'm not really interested in young policeman being put in that position.

Draw, arm, aim, considered decision on whether to fire or not... from that list, it's pretty easy to figure out which of those things will be given less attention in a pressurised situation.

[Scuba_Steve]

What alot of people seem to be missing is this guy was blind-sided do you really believe that had he had a gun he would have been better off? :blink:
If your gonna take a cop down like that knowing their armed, your NOT gonna leave them with their gun, it'll be taken & then used against the cop, dead cop not injured cop!
Also do you think crims knowing cops are "packing" are gonna continue just to carry knifes/bats, so there you've just put store owners & general public at greater risk than current. Then there's the fact one of the safest people to be when a cops got a gun is the person they're trying to hit again putting general public at greater risk than they need to be.

At close quarters guns become more hindrance than help, especially if your reliant on them as the cops would be, Proper CQC (close quarters combat) training is the safest, most effective route to go it'll save more lives than "arming police" will ever save

[Toaster]

What alot of people seem to be missing is this guy was blind-sided do you really believe that had he had a gun he would have been better off? :blink:


You are missing the point. It is not about this particular case. It is about giving them the best chance to defend themselves and others in any future events whatever they may be.

And to answer you. If you were not there, how would you know? Only HE can answer that question. Noone else.

[Toaster]

If they happen in SECONDS, then they're not going to have time to draw a weapon from their hip. One second it's just a quick walk back to the car to conduct standard radio checks, the next it's a crack over the back of the head and their own 9mm in the small of their back.

Where in that time frame do you see an officer being able to draw, arm, aim, and then make a considered decision on whether to shoot or not? Or should every routine traffic stop be conducted with a drawn weapon? Because given the choice between that, and putting another cop in every car, I'm not really interested in young policeman being put in that position.

Draw, arm, aim, considered decision on whether to fire or not... from that list, it's pretty easy to figure out which of those things will be given less attention in a pressurised situation.


Ever been there and done that?

If you havent been in that situation then leave it to those who are. I have been there. A firearm gives a cop the best chance to survive.

In this case, he was caught out. Each case is vastly different. This debate is about saving cops from GBH or death in the future.

Yes some will die. It is about giving them the tools to help them survive. Tools that beat those used by criminals. Of course there is added other risks with guns. But that is a calculated risk I for one would take to gain the benefits that the weapon offers.

[imdying]

You are missing the point. It is not about this particular case. It is about giving them the best chance to defend themselves and others in any future events whatever they may be.Not missing the point at all, I just think you're wrong on this one.

Two cops; it's disgusting that we should send them out one at a time vs the worst we can muster. That's just fucked, unless they're Robocop that'll always be asking for a beating.

[imdying]

Ever been there and done that?Oh, we're going there are we? :facepalm:


If you havent been in that situation then leave it to those who are. I have been there. A firearm gives a cop the best chance to survive.What, you've been there once and probably paniced your arse off; that does not make you instantly qualified to dictate the appropriateness of carrying a glock in every case :rolleyes:


It is about giving them the tools to help them survive. Tools that beat those used by criminals.That's a bit misguided... just how is a pistol going to beat those tools used by criminals?

[BoristheBiter]

Dont get me wrong, cops need guns now for protection ( and no more working alone), working prisons like Angola are a good idea and I believe in self funding through inmate labour.

Its the causes of the crim creation that are woefully unattended to a much of morons at the top.

The baying for blood by the masses is nothing new and to be expected.

The lack of incisive planning to prevent crim creating is the area that riles me. Cant you see we are being forced down this road by those wanting a police state future?

Why glorify gangster shit on TV and music other than to divide and conquer?

OK then what makes a criminal then? what stops a criminal from offending? and what stops one from reoffending?

[Banditbandit]

But it will stop the cops getting bashed. if not then the crims get shot and thats just good riddance to bad rubbish. w

win/win i say.

And so will innocent people - or do you believe that anyone the cops shoot will be a criminal ?

[BoristheBiter]

And so will innocent people - or do you believe that anyone the cops shoot will be a criminal ?

maybe, maybe not. you never know it might make people do what the police ask them.

[imdying]

And so will innocent people - or do you believe that anyone the cops shoot will be a criminal ?I would like to think so, but Toaster tells us that they'll only have SECONDS to react, so it seems unlikely that all the training in the world is going to avoid the odd unfortunate accident. What sort of 'accident' ratio should we deem acceptable?

[Banditbandit]

You are missing the point. It is not about this particular case. It is about giving them the best chance to defend themselves and others in any future events whatever they may be.

And to answer you. If you were not there, how would you know? Only HE can answer that question. Noone else.

In fact, the particulars of that case are not too dissimilar to other recent police attacks and shootings ...

The guy in ChCh, who also shot the dog - shot before anyone knew there were guns on the property ...

Jan Molenaar in Napier - was shooting before anyone knew he even had guns ...

The undercover in Auckland bugging a car late at night - shot before anyone knew what was happening ...

All three were "out of the blue" and having guns would not have helped police in any of those cases ... and I would argue that those kinds of cases may become even more frequent - as crims shoot at cops first ...

If the cops go in with guns drawn., then they are more likely to shoot innocent people (tho' I would argue that there are cases were they do need to go in with guns drawn - and they do that anyway, with the Armed Offenders Squad ... we don't need new laws to let them do that ...)

[scissorhands]

OK then what makes a criminal then? what stops a criminal from offending? and what stops one from reoffending?


Black markets-drug money, chop shops, anger and parental anger regarding youth, domination, intoxication............basically a society produces criminal activity in the populace

Why does Sweden have many freedoms, unlike Saudi Arabia, and a very low crime rate?

[marty]

What causes people to do crimes is more to the point, and the area of concern.

Arming cops is like taking a pill to mask the symptoms, the CAUSE OF THE ILLNESS GOES UNDERGROUND AND COMES OUT STRONGER THAN BEFORE BECAUSE THE CONDITIONS WHICH GREW THE DISEASE ARE LEFT UNATTENDED

that's all nice a cuddly, but what about in the meantime? It's taken decadeds to get to where we are, it is going to take just as long to get to the root cause and sort it out.

I have lost a friend to a firearm, and multiple colleagues to bad guys that have not had a firearm - the cops would probably still be alive if they had have had a gun, and the bad guy would be dead instead.

[scissorhands]

In fact, the particulars of that case are not too dissimilar to other recent police attacks and shootings ...

The guy in ChCh, who also shot the dog - shot before anyone knew there were guns on the property ...

Jan Molenaar in Napier - was shooting before anyone knew he even had guns ...

The undercover in Auckland bugging a car late at night - shot before anyone knew what was happening ...

All three were "out of the blue" and having guns would not have helped police in any of those cases ... and I would argue that those kinds of cases may become even more frequent - as crims shoot at cops first ...

If the cops go in with guns drawn., then they are more likely to shoot innocent people (tho' I would argue that there are cases were they do need to go in with guns drawn - and they do that anyway, with the Armed Offenders Squad ... we don't need new laws to let them do that ...)


spot on well said

[marty]

What causes people to do crimes is more to the point, and the area of concern.

Arming cops is like taking a pill to mask the symptoms, the CAUSE OF THE ILLNESS GOES UNDERGROUND AND COMES OUT STRONGER THAN BEFORE BECAUSE THE CONDITIONS WHICH GREW THE DISEASE ARE LEFT UNATTENDED

like it or not, the beatings will have to continue until morale improves.

[Banditbandit]

like it or not, the beatings will have to continue until morale improves.

Ironic or not .. that's the point ... if the beatings continue, then so will the current or increased level of violence in society ...

[imdying]

So if guns is only going to equal more guns, what can we do to keep our police safe?

[Banditbandit]

So if guns is only going to equal more guns, what can we do to keep our police safe?

Yeah ... I know .. that's the dilemma ... you're right - it's taken quite a few years to get to where we are today .. and making the required social changes will have a long term impact ... but no short term impact ...

If we increase the level of legal violence (arm the police, bring in the death penalty) then we will increase the level of criminal violence as well.

Increasing sentences doesn't work (except in the short term to get crims off the street) because crims don't consider the consequences of getting caught - or they accept the consequences .. and that doesn't stop them ... the jails end up costing us more (as they are now).

And increasing sentences continues the problems inter-generationally as fathers are removed from families (albeit for good reasons) for longer, producing more fatherless kids who are pissed at the system that put their father in jail ...

But if it's about letting cops protect themselves with guns, I believe it will actually mean more cop deaths - look at England - no regularly armed police and very few cop killings. Look at the USA - regularly armed police and cops killed at slightly more than 1 per day !

Which model suggests the best way to stop cops getting killed?

[Smifffy]

Black markets-drug money, chop shops, anger and parental anger regarding youth, domination, intoxication............basically a society produces criminal activity in the populace

Why does Sweden have many freedoms, unlike Saudi Arabia, and a very low crime rate?

I suggest the root cause is that there is a significant proportion of the population that has an innate sense of entitlement.

In other countries, people can have nice christmas displays etc in their unfenced front yards, without any concern that they will be interfered with. Here you can't even put out a pair of solar garden lights on the front lawn without having someone wander off with them. They may discard them a few houses down, but that's not the point.

Some people feel that they are entitled to take other people's cars, or enter their homes and help themselves to shit.

Some people think that their employment contract entitles them to a swanni and two pair of boots every year, regardless of whether they are worn or not, and by golly they'll take them.

In many of the (few) countries I have visited, the people that undertake these activities accept that they are trying to rip someone off. In NZ they appear to believe it is their right.

In fact I am overseas at the moment, and have been following the news online, it all seems so depressing lately, I hardly feel like coming home.

I encourage my hosts and people I meet to visit NZ, yet if they look at the Herald or stuff websites they are pretty much put off.

With this kind of press it will take more than a few hobbits to to drag in the tourist hordes.

[Katman]

Fuck the idea of giving police guns. Far too many of them couldn't be trusted with them.

Instead, lets get a justice system that hands out real punishment.

[Smifffy]

Instead, lets get a justice system that hands out real punishment.

Agree with this part.

[marty]

what like this guy's sentence? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10694289

when the judge has a kid that gets sexually assaulted or raped by an HIV +ve man, he sure as won't be saying that the offending was 'occasionally degrading'

i'm fucking speechless

[scumdog]

In fact, the particulars of that case are not too dissimilar to other recent police attacks and shootings ...

The guy in ChCh, who also shot the dog - shot before anyone knew there were guns on the property ...

Jan Molenaar in Napier - was shooting before anyone knew he even had guns ...

The undercover in Auckland bugging a car late at night - shot before anyone knew what was happening ...



All were also unarmed so even the 'unshot' ones couldn't respond in kind to the gunfire.

And too many NZ cops are too trusting and not suspicious enough.:yes:

[Scouse]

You forgot about making sure that women are oppressed at every opportunity, including being stoned to death for 'adultery', as though they shouldn't be allowed to sleep with whoever they damn well choose to.
Old world/dark ages. There may way be a few things that the white man has left behind. There's considerably more that god fearing types have left behind.There we go western civilisation started its big down hill slide as soon as woman got to vote.
The corect chain of command in the house hold disintergrated as soon as this happend. I'll bet money on the fact that in ten years time all woman will be lesbians.

[Toaster]

Oh, we're going there are we? :facepalm:

What, you've been there once and probably paniced your arse off; that does not make you instantly qualified to dictate the appropriateness of carrying a glock in every case :rolleyes:

That's a bit misguided... just how is a pistol going to beat those tools used by criminals?


And you call me misguided? Dont fall off your armchair. No didnt panic, was in that situation several times and always did the right thing. Luck maybe. Good use of ones training possibly.

But hey how would you know eh.

[Smifffy]

what like this guy's sentence? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10694289

when the judge has a kid that gets sexually assaulted or raped by an HIV +ve man, he sure as won't be saying that the offending was 'occasionally degrading'

i'm fucking speechless

Yeah, me too. I bought into the nats "get tough on crime" election promises. It turns out that John Key is a softer cock than Helen Clark (Guess I shouldn't be that surprised) when it comes to loser crims.

[scumdog]

As expected (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4454449/Accuseds-sister-cries-for-hurt-officer)

As expected, these thugs arent bad kids, but
:angry:

How can ones family be so stupid?

When you look at who the kind of slack-jawed mouth-breathing lackwitted drongos they're related to it should not surprise you at all:blink:

[Toaster]

In fact, the particulars of that case are not too dissimilar to other recent police attacks and shootings ...

The guy in ChCh, who also shot the dog - shot before anyone knew there were guns on the property ...

Jan Molenaar in Napier - was shooting before anyone knew he even had guns ...

The undercover in Auckland bugging a car late at night - shot before anyone knew what was happening ...

All three were "out of the blue" and having guns would not have helped police in any of those cases ... and I would argue that those kinds of cases may become even more frequent - as crims shoot at cops first ...

If the cops go in with guns drawn., then they are more likely to shoot innocent people (tho' I would argue that there are cases were they do need to go in with guns drawn - and they do that anyway, with the Armed Offenders Squad ... we don't need new laws to let them do that ...)


The presence of a firearm does not stop a cop making mistakes - as they did in all those cases. Its far more complex than what you and imdying suggest.

All I am saying is if a cop wants to carry a firearm to help with the choices they have for protecting themselves against the shit in society, then let them.

[98tls]

Out of interest why havent cops here worn handguns for years?Whos responsible for them not being armed and anyone know what the reasons are for not arming them.

[BoristheBiter]

Black markets-drug money, chop shops, anger and parental anger regarding youth, domination, intoxication............basically a society produces criminal activity in the populace

Why does Sweden have many freedoms, unlike Saudi Arabia, and a very low crime rate?

well that is the soft cock, limp wristed,,PC bullshit blame everyone else for them being criminals answer that I excepted.

What a complete load of bollocks you spout.

As for Sweden, they have the same offending rate as here and they are more soft cock so that doesn't work.
Saudi is more police state than the USA so thats why they have a lower crime rate and that's the way it should be but i could just imagine what you would all say if we started cutting off the hands of thieves, have a good stoning or God forbid we take the benefit off them

like Smiffy said some people just think they are entitled to.

[98tls]

Saudi is more police state than the USA so thats why they have a lower crime rate and that's the way it should be but i could just imagine what you would all say if we started cutting off the hands of thieves, have a good stoning or God forbid we take the benefit off them

like Smiffy said some people just think they are entitled to.

Bring it on i say,chopping off rapists and kiddie fiddlers dicks would be a good place to start eh.

[JimO]

When you look at who the kind of slack-jawed mouth-breathing lackwitted drongos they're related to it should not surprise you at all:blink:

chop em up cuz chop em up,...........time for these people to quietly disappear one night

[marty]

Out of interest why havent cops here worn handguns for years?Whos responsible for them not being armed and anyone know what the reasons are for not arming them.

In the early 80's the then-commisioner decided that senior cops (detectives, sergeants and senior sergeants) could not carry firearms during their normal duties (night shift d's almost always carried)

this policy has remained pretty much in force, however most section sergeants, seniors and dog handlers now carry a pistol during the hours of darkness, and certainly in some areas that would be considered high risk.

in 2003/4 I was tooled up (much to my father's disgust) pretty much on any shift except early shift - i always had a holster on though, and a glock in a floor safe under my feet

and in 1991, my s/sgt was comfortable with our decision to carry or not on night shift, in a single-man i-car, based in Huntly. I always carried. Pulled it out in anger twice. to extremely good effect too i must add.

interestingly, imho the carriage of firearms is a management issue, not a governance one - I believe the govt does not have the mandate to say 'can't be done/must be done'

[98tls]

In the early 80's the then-commisioner decided that senior cops (detectives, sergeants and senior sergeants) could not carry firearms during their normal duties (night shift d's almost always carried)

this policy has remained pretty much in force, however most section sergeants, seniors and dog handlers now carry a pistol during the hours of darkness, and certainly in some areas that would be considered high risk.

in 2003/4 I was tooled up (much to my father's disgust) pretty much on any shift except early shift - i always had a holster on though, and a glock in a floor safe under my feet

Cheers.Was selling Fords up in Wellington in the 90s and rember seeing from time to time a little locable box on the floor of the mufti cars when they were in for servicing.

[BoristheBiter]

Bring it on i say,chopping off rapists and kiddie fiddlers dicks would be a good place to start eh.

No complaints from this cyber warrior.

[Patrick]

I think this sort of stuff is on the increase because the police are scamming and respect is all but gone because of this, re-seperate the cops from the P.I.G.s. (which is something the top cops have expressed they want to do, but the retard 'Crusher Collins' doesn't have an interest in doing, guess it would harm profit) DO NOT give them guns, we've seen over & over again they can't use them effectively its more harm than help & they'll become too reliant on that which they cannot control case in point Hutt Valley dog, Auckland Courier.

Sad thing is this guy seems to be one of the good cops, This is where we need eye for eye justice (see how they like the machete) but I suspect when found as they've got the corrupt piece of shit we call the (in)justice system to go though they'll probably come out with 250hr community service or something equally unjust

Geez you're hillarious.:innocent: Without reading all of the thread so far...,

He is of the hated highway patrol... the very thing some on here hate with abundance, "coz I got a ticket once... or 17 times, coz I'm a real slow leaner dumbfuck..." type of thing.:crybaby:

In his 35 years as a traffic/cop, never been assaulted.

Bloody top bloke too, worked with him for a short time in Waiouru.

[98tls]

No complaints from this cyber warrior.

Sadly wont happen though eh,not sure whos worse the kid fiddlers or the bastards who decide there still human and have rights.There surely has to be a line drawn and when someone crosses it thats it,outta here.

[BoristheBiter]

Sadly wont happen though eh,not sure whos worse the kid fiddlers or the bastards who decide there still human and have rights.There surely has to be a line drawn and when someone crosses it thats it,outta here.

but thats it in a nutshell isn't it, the cops are doing there job and very well indeed, its the courts that let these tossers back out into society. just today i heard that dick that shot at the cops got 2 years, WTF?

All the cops on here would be able to testify to the shit sentences handed out on a daily basis by slack arsed judges and then when some one does hand out a good one it goes to appeal and gets shortened, or the dicks that have pages of history and still get bail.

IMHO if we start throwing away the key and letting these scum rot away in jail the better we will be. no problem of reoffending as they don't get let out, and it will cost about the same as having to provide the dole and legal aid.

[98tls]

but thats it in a nutshell isn't it, the cops are doing there job and very well indeed, its the courts that let these tossers back out into society. just today i heard that dick that shot at the cops got 2 years, WTF?

All the cops on here would be able to testify to the shit sentences handed out on a daily basis by slack arsed judges and then when some one does hand out a good one it goes to appeal and gets shortened, or the dicks that have pages of history and still get bail.

IMHO if we start throwing away the key and letting these scum rot away in jail the better we will be. no problem of reoffending as they don't get let out, and it will cost about the same as having to provide the dole and legal aid.

Agreed,the drink driving thing is a prime example,the money/resources etc that goes into catching them must be huge but pick up a paper in any major center the day after court day and you will find people on 6th and upwards convictions still get little more than a slap,fucking pathetic,they piss about with probation officers reports blah blah blah and come up with some so called extenuating (spell) circumstances:facepalm:fuck me whats having an old man with an anger problem got to do with driving pissed.Coppers must shake there heads in disbelief.

[Toaster]

Yep, its a revolving door. Many run the odds game..... 50 burglaries is worth a few months in jail when finally caught for one or two of them. Life is easy inside with family and mates, fed, bed, tv, pool tables, no work, free soap and rubbing.... its a HOLIDAY!

They know WE pay for the insurance, WE pay for the Police, the Lawyers on both sides, the Judiciary, the prisons etc. It is one big freebee for these career crimianls who know they get out soon enough and carry on with their taxpayer funded lifestyle.

More victims, more insurance premiums and more taxes used to pay for the process of lockign them up yet again.

I for one am happy to see them rot in Jail and cause NO more victims. Stuff them, they can rot for all I care.

Prison needs to become a punishment. Only then will it have any chance of being a disincentive.

Soft rules have meant a loss of respect for any kind of authority. Now we reap what we sowed as things only ever get worse... especially for the police as they do what they can to do a difficult and often very unpleasant job. Good on them for choosing to be there.

[Toaster]

Out of interest why havent cops here worn handguns for years?Whos responsible for them not being armed and anyone know what the reasons are for not arming them.


Idiots living in the past that say it would be a sad loss of tradition. Time to wake up and smell the violence. We are no different to the rest of the world.

[98tls]

Idiots living in the past that say it would be a sad loss of tradition. Time to wake up and smell the violence. We are no different to the rest of the world.

Pretty much what i was thinking,can imagine some musty old prick deciding our cops dont need guns because our scum are not as bad as the rest of the worlds or some other crap,time to wake up eh we once were a little island nation in the middle of nowhere,now with the interweb/television and a fucked up immigration system weve got the lot.

[terbang]

what like this guy's sentence? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10694289

when the judge has a kid that gets sexually assaulted or raped by an HIV +ve man, he sure as won't be saying that the offending was 'occasionally degrading'

i'm fucking speechless

Yup farken speechless.

[98tls]

Yup farken speechless.

:facepalm:Unbelievable,shows how fucked up our whole system is.The judge needs to be banged up awhile on principal.

[wingnutt]

I think this sort of stuff is on the increase because the police are scamming and respect is all but gone because of this, re-seperate the cops from the P.I.G.s. (which is something the top cops have expressed they want to do, but the retard 'Crusher Collins' doesn't have an interest in doing, guess it would harm profit) DO NOT give them guns, we've seen over & over again they can't use them effectively its more harm than help & they'll become too reliant on that which they cannot control case in point Hutt Valley dog, Auckland Courier.

Sad thing is this guy seems to be one of the good cops, This is where we need eye for eye justice (see how they like the machete) but I suspect when found as they've got the corrupt piece of shit we call the (in)justice system to go though they'll probably come out with 250hr community service or something equally unjust

yeh, I have to agree with a couple of your points collins and her mates are running the police as a business, and of course a profit, and this I beleive, had led to disrespect towards police, however have had known a retired cop, the violence, as always been there, its just got worse with now with the use of weapons.

while I'm not a big fan of the police, there is no way I would ever condone, any kind of violence, towards police officers, and I hope they come down hard on these little buggers.

as for arming the boys in blue, I'm just not sure that is the answer, but two cops in cars in isolated areas could be a way to go, collins wouldn't like that thought mind you, it would cut into her salary.

[_Shrek_]

This is where I'd disagree with you & where this whole "arm police" is a knee jerk reaction, he was blind-sided with a machete I would say if he was armed he would have still been blind-sided with a machete only then (knowing he was "packing") the gun would of been taken & most likely used against the cop, meaning instead of a badly injured cop we would now have a dead one.

What the police in NZ need is CQC training there is very little need for cops to carry guns in NZ.

it's not a knee jerk reaction Steve, I've watch NZ sink further into the shit over the past twenty years, you still had your low life back then but not to the scale we have now, they aren't going to put two cops on the same beat when their rescources don't stretch that far & as it's been said the immigration dept has let in all sorts with the help of past PM's with there pc way of thinking
I still say arm the country cops & those working alone at night

[terbang]

I'm not sure how this one eventually panned out: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/image.cfm?c_id=1&gal_objectid=10553274&gallery_id=104210#6576644

[98tls]

it's not a knee jerk reaction Steve, I've watch NZ sink further into the shit over the past twenty years, you still had your low life back then but not to the scale we have now, they aren't going to put two cops on the same beat when their rescources don't stretch that far & as it's been said the immigration dept has let in all sorts with the help of past PM's with there pc way of thinking
I still say arm the country cops & those working alone at night

What about simply sending all the fucking islanders back to where they came from eh,sure give them a chance but only one,first time they beat the shit out of there mrs or bash some old fella 1/2 to death then outta here,cant be bothered with all the tip toeing round fuck em,got to start somewhere though methinks its all to late.

[scumdog]

I'm not sure how this one eventually panned out: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/image.cfm?c_id=1&gal_objectid=10553274&gallery_id=104210#6576644

I dunnow either.

But I feel sadly it was a 'shit happens' incident, they are part of life to a greater or lesser degree but tragically for some they only have the one 'shit happens' incident.......

[oldrider]

Fuck the idea of giving police guns. Most of them couldn't be trusted with them.

True but the problem is these days most of the "criminal element do have guns" (and other weapons) and can't be trusted with them either! :facepalm:

At least the police are on "our" side! :yes:

I agree with you about the Justice system, from the Law society to Judges to corrections and the parole boards it is a bloody joke, it must be like an Albatross around the neck of every police officer in the country! :brick:

The latter grouping is the countries biggest problem! IMHO. :doh:

[98tls]

At least the police are on "our" side! :yes:

:doh:

:facepalm:Jesus John,No doubt theres a 100 kiwi whingers on here about to dispute that,that fuckin knob Crazy Steve will no doubt post up another rant about one of his many beatings whilst in custody.

[freedom-wedge]

That will make or society worse. Cant anyone see the connection with US style policy, media and conditioning and US style crime statistics and gangster motive in the NZ young.

Hands up children and those not able to make the connection

Its lost on Borris anyhow, he cant see any connection or even understand the implications. Most of us are Pro police , but arming the front line officer will be a disaster and produce disaster. I,m sorry for the officer injured and glad that he survived I just dont think he should of been out there alone.

[mashman]

I still say arm the country cops & those working alone at night

Why not have an armed soldier ride along on the beats that need it? They're already trained in weapons?

[98tls]

Its lost on Borris anyhow, he cant see any connection or even understand the implications. Most of us are Pro police , but arming the front line officer will be a disaster and produce disaster. I,m sorry for the officer injured and glad that he survived I just dont think he should of been out there alone.

Bet your sorry for all the dead coppers over the years to eh,no doubt there families will appreciate that,wake the fuck up or at least burst whatever comforting little bubble that surrounds you.2 unarmed coppers are little more use than one,one anti scumbucket device evens the odds a little at least.

[oldrider]

The only criticism I would make of the said officer is, he was alone and he turned his back on the "enemy"!

May not have saved him but at least it would have improved his chances and if he had had a gun, he could have used it to defend himself. (and us)

Sargent Guthrie (of Aramoana fame) should have shot first and then cautioned David Gray and read him his rights!

I am sure Sargent Guthrie would be uncomfortable about that today as he enjoyed life with his loving family after being dismissed from the force of course!

Well, better than being a dead hero being mourned by his grieving family because he followed the "stupid" rules! :doh:

[scissorhands]

well that is the soft cock, limp wristed,,PC bullshit blame everyone else for them being criminals answer that I excepted.

What a complete load of bollocks you spout.

As for Sweden, they have the same offending rate as here and they are more soft cock so that doesn't work.
Saudi is more police state than the USA so thats why they have a lower crime rate and that's the way it should be but i could just imagine what you would all say if we started cutting off the hands of thieves, have a good stoning or God forbid we take the benefit off them

like Smiffy said some people just think they are entitled to.

The percentage of the population in Swedish prison is significantly lower than in most other countries. Out of 100,000 inhabitants, 79 lived in prison facilities in 2001, which is a bit higher than other Scandinavian countries. By comparison, most industrial countries in Europe had a rate of around 100 (England & Wales 125, Germany 97, Italy 90); and some eastern Europe states range between 150–300. The United States ranks high above Sweden with 682 inmates per 100,000 inhabitants, topped only by Russia's 729.[5] Some of these numbers may be due to variations in prison types, for instance Sweden makes frequent use of electronic fetters, allowing the prisoner to live at home (but under constant surveillance, including a no-alcohol policy.)

From Wikipedia

[BoristheBiter]

The percentage of the population in Swedish prison is significantly lower than in most other countries. Out of 100,000 inhabitants, 79 lived in prison facilities in 2001, which is a bit higher than other Scandinavian countries. By comparison, most industrial countries in Europe had a rate of around 100 (England & Wales 125, Germany 97, Italy 90); and some eastern Europe states range between 150–300. The United States ranks high above Sweden with 682 inmates per 100,000 inhabitants, topped only by Russia's 729.[5] Some of these numbers may be due to variations in prison types, for instance Sweden makes frequent use of electronic fetters, allowing the prisoner to live at home (but under constant surveillance, including a no-alcohol policy.)

From Wikipedia

And they still have the same crime and re-offending rates so whats your point?
Just let all offenders get off with a slap on the hand is that what your saying?

[BoristheBiter]

Its lost on Borris anyhow, he cant see any connection or even understand the implications. Most of us are Pro police , but arming the front line officer will be a disaster and produce disaster. I,m sorry for the officer injured and glad that he survived I just dont think he should of been out there alone.

No the connection is not lost on me, i actually think that what is portrayed on the telly has to answer for some of the problems but we are not talking cause here we are talking about the police's ability to defend themselves.

but if you really what to talk cause you have to look no further than the so called parents.

[scissorhands]

It appears Sweden has caught up with the rest of the world, funny that. Stockholm is now like most euro cities in crime stats.

Interestingly, Swedens murder rate was huge a couple of hundred years back.

Refugees and immigrants have pushed up stats in last 12 years according to Wikipedia. Rural non immigrant towns are still very low by american standards.

[BoristheBiter]

It appears Sweden has caught up with the rest of the world, funny that. Stockholm is now like most euro cities in crime stats.

Interestingly, Swedens murder rate was huge a couple of hundred years back.

Refugees and immigrants have pushed up stats in last 12 years according to Wikipedia. Rural non immigrant towns are still very low by american standards.

So now its the fault of immigrants, your not called Winston are you?

[scissorhands]

So now its the fault of immigrants, your not called Winston are you?

Call me whatever, oh difficult one. Sweden USED to be low. My apologies, okay?

At least I can admit a mistake, Mr Perfect

[BoristheBiter]

Call me whatever, oh difficult one. Sweden USED to be low. My apologies, okay?

At least I can admit a mistake, Mr Perfect

We are all far from perfect.

I would have said the same till about feb or march when the had a doco looking at all the different systems around the world, Sweden, the tent city in the states and a few others and what the outcome was and they were basically all the same at the end.

No matter what was in place to help crims the offending and re-offending rates were basically the same. There was one place that was lower, i can't remember now, somewhere in Africa and that was only because most weren't let out and they had a massive death in prison rate.

I know there are a lot of problems and for some no matter what you do they will always be criminals as for some they just need a scare to put them straight.

the police are our only tool in catching them, its not their job to look for answers, thats the job of government, and it's about time we started giving them the tools they need to be able to preform their jobs and be able to return home safely and if that is arming them, putting armed forces or security staff to ride along, or making every car 4 up then so be it. as many say on here thats part of their job then lets let them do it.

[imdying]

Why not have an armed soldier ride along on the beats that need it? They're already trained in weapons?Interesting thought.

[oldrider]

if you really what to talk cause you have to look no further than the so called parents.

Yes you are correct IMHO but who really are the parents today?

Socialists (Clark/Key administrations for instance) believe that "we" all belong to the State, especially the children!

The State has disenfranchised the parents and taken away the parental authority, responsibility and right to discipline and set boundaries for their own children!

Note: The effects of the anti smacking bill! :brick:

When the kids behaviour turns to shit the State (Welfare departments etc) then hands the apparent child failure and the responsibility back to the parent and blames them for the fuck up! :facepalm:

It was two of these products that almost killed the Policeman in question and there are lots more of them out there, yet to be discovered!

[BoristheBiter]

Yes you are correct IMHO but who really are the parents today?

Socialists (Clark/Key administrations for instance) believe that "we" all belong to the State, especially the children!

The State has disenfranchised the parents and taken away the parental authority, responsibility and right to discipline and set boundaries for their own children!

Note: The effects of the anti smacking bill! :brick:

When the kids behaviour turns to shit the State (Welfare departments etc) then hands the apparent child failure and the responsibility back to the parent and blames them for the fuck up! :facepalm:

It was two of these products that almost killed the Policeman in question and there are lots more of them out there, yet to be discovered!

No argument here.

[Mudfart]

Smothering them with love doesnt seem to work, only spoils them.
I would have gotten a palm to face slap, thats if I had of refused in the first place, and you kind of learned your lesson after the second facial slap from previous rebellions.

[jasonu]

Why not have an armed soldier ride along on the beats that need it? They're already trained in weapons?

Because they are soldiers, not police.

[mashman]

Because they are soldiers, not police.

That's kinda the point :yes:.

They're already paid for by the public to serve the country.
They're trained to shoot and kill, and will most likely hit the target (unlike the Police J/K, to a degree).
They may have access to night vision (amongst other toys) etc... that Police don't.
They were brought in during the Molenaar thing, so have experience.
They're sitting around in barracks when they could be doing "other" things.

and likely many more reasons why they could be of benefit...

Would that be enough of a deterrent, knowing that there's an automatic rifle pointed at you when you pull over? It'd certainly make me think twice before attacking a Police person...

I'd rather not arm the Police when there are already trained armed personnel in the country :). Maximum cover for Police at next to no cost...

Just a thought :)

[BoristheBiter]

That's kinda the point :yes:.

They're already paid for by the public to serve the country.
They're trained to shoot and kill, and will most likely hit the target (unlike the Police J/K, to a degree).
They may have access to night vision (amongst other toys) etc... that Police don't.
They were brought in during the Molenaar thing, so have experience.
They're sitting around in barracks when they could be doing "other" things.

and likely many more reasons why they could be of benefit...

Would that be enough of a deterrent, knowing that there's an automatic rifle pointed at you when you pull over? It'd certainly make me think twice before attacking a Police person...

I'd rather not arm the Police when there are already trained armed personnel in the country :). Maximum cover for Police at next to no cost...

Just a thought :)

agree with that apart from the hit the target bit, they are just as unlikely to hit the target.

[freedom-wedge]

Bet your sorry for all the dead coppers over the years to eh,no doubt there families will appreciate that,wake the fuck up or at least burst whatever comforting little bubble that surrounds you.2 unarmed coppers are little more use than one,one anti scumbucket device evens the odds a little at least.

You wake the fuck up man, I have shot on range with the police for 12 or more years they just wern't up to the task, it wasnt their fault, just not enough rounds to fire due to budget constraints, a few were above average Ironically Abbot was one, I fucking dispare every time an officer goes down just like I weep everytime the bell tolls for a member of our armed forces, I,m not a tree huging bubble wrapped enviro either, If they were going to have an armed experienced officer on patrol with a community constable I might relax, and he by god need,s to be on the range with 500 or more rounds a week, not gonna happen is it. he also needs to know that theres a time and a place to engage he dosnt even need to flex if theres no need. What you will get is the shaking hands of a 20 year old with the offender at his or her safest in the target area, due to budget constraints, leathal force is a fuck that fucks up lives including the police when they take one or get it wrong, when it needs to be done it should be so, but as a last resort and it needs to be most of all the right call.

[freedom-wedge]

No the connection is not lost on me, i actually think that what is portrayed on the telly has to answer for some of the problems but we are not talking cause here we are talking about the police's ability to defend themselves.

but if you really what to talk cause you have to look no further than the so called parents.

A valid point and certainly part of the problem thats going to get worse in the next 10 . Children who dont understand consequence, and then learn that no matter what there is little father or mother can do to STOP MEEE even if they wanted to, all I have to do is to pick up the phone and spin some shit, its game over for them, and now I is very empowered and can dance to my own music any time I wants.

[mashman]

agree with that apart from the hit the target bit, they are just as unlikely to hit the target.

Point taken, but both sides would have a better chance of survival with someone who's trained and knows their weapon I woulda thought, and you wouldn't just send anyone out there... there must be a lot of good shots amongst the ranks.

I would, however, prefer something completely different.

[Patrick]

Yeah your right....And one 14yr old and 18yr old pair of Maori boys fckd him up pretty good aye ! ! !

Good job that policeman getting delt to, I've had my fair amount of hidings in police custody and false charges.

Sounds like paybacks are a bitch !

Crazy Steve.

When did he give you the bash? He wouldn't be able to fight his way out of a tissue.


No ! !

You might be next Scummy, keep your guard up dude and get them before they get you...:)

There does seem to be more and more of this happening, could it be the fact that the standard Police officer weighs no more than 70kgs ? ?

Anyone remember the case in Botnay when a female officer was beaten by a teenager in a towel after he ran away from his shower..She was beaten quite badly !


Crazy Steve.

Her too? Did you enjoy the bash from a chick?


It's real alright ! I've been drinking bourbon all night and about to go out into town and use it !

Can't decide if I'm going for a shooting spree at the local school or police station ??

Which one would you chose Sir ?

Crazy Steve.

Take two in the head first, give it a test... then go crazy...?

[scumdog]

That's kinda the point :yes:.

They're already paid for by the public to serve the country.
They're trained to shoot and kill, and will most likely hit the target (unlike the Police J/K, to a degree).
They may have access to night vision (amongst other toys) etc... that Police don't.
They were brought in during the Molenaar thing, so have experience.
They're sitting around in barracks when they could be doing "other" things.

and likely many more reasons why they could be of benefit...

Just a thought :)

(a) True
(b) Possibly true
(c) Not true
(d) Spurious argument..:blink:
(e) Possible. But I bet they wouldn't be happy to hear that comment.

[freedom-wedge]

Point taken, but both sides would have a better chance of survival with someone who's trained and knows their weapon I woulda thought, and you wouldn't just send anyone out there... there must be a lot of good shots amongst the ranks.

I would, however, prefer something completely different.

The Military should'nt be engaging with its own citizens Mash, although its shapping up to do so in the future, there are some members of the police capable of doing this job and it is their area and it should stay there.

[Smifffy]

I love watching the wheel turn, you sound for all the world like a Thatcherite tory here.

:gob:


That's kinda the point :yes:.

They're already paid for by the public to serve the country.
They're trained to shoot and kill, and will most likely hit the target (unlike the Police J/K, to a degree).
They may have access to night vision (amongst other toys) etc... that Police don't.
They were brought in during the Molenaar thing, so have experience.
They're sitting around in barracks when they could be doing "other" things.

and likely many more reasons why they could be of benefit...

Would that be enough of a deterrent, knowing that there's an automatic rifle pointed at you when you pull over? It'd certainly make me think twice before attacking a Police person...

I'd rather not arm the Police when there are already trained armed personnel in the country :). Maximum cover for Police at next to no cost...

Just a thought :)

[BoristheBiter]

Point taken, but both sides would have a better chance of survival with someone who's trained and knows their weapon I woulda thought, and you wouldn't just send anyone out there... there must be a lot of good shots amongst the ranks.

I would, however, prefer something completely different.

Better training, not just rounds fired but better scenario based training.

The problem is at anytime for any reason someone can just lose it and go off his/her nut and it is generally the police the is standing in the way.
In the end it should come down to how the police want to handle this, whether it be more people in cars or carrying guns and if you don't like it vote someone else in at voting time.

[mashman]

The Military should'nt be engaging with its own citizens Mash, although its shapping up to do so in the future, there are some members of the police capable of doing this job and it is their area and it should stay there.


I agree, but what's the alternative? 2 "armed" forces?



I love watching the wheel turn, you sound for all the world like a Thatcherite tory here.


:) a Thatcherite eh... mum and dad will be proud (they are tories :rofl: :facepalm:). Is sounding like a Thatcherite a bad thing :shifty:?



Better training, not just rounds fired but better scenario based training.

The problem is at anytime for any reason someone can just lose it and go off his/her nut and it is generally the police the is standing in the way.
In the end it should come down to how the police want to handle this, whether it be more people in cars or carrying guns and if you don't like it vote someone else in at voting time.

:rofl: @ voting, er, er , er, show me the party that offers REAL WORLD resolutions to ANY of todays issues and i'll tick that box...

imho, yes humble :facepalm:, and after reading the thread, a soldier would be MY perference. As you say, TPTB and the Police will do what they want for THEIR own reasons.

Governments consistently moan and whine about the lack of money to outfit and/or staff the Police properly... Soldiers already get paid and have all of the gear needed. You could implement "the soldier" idea in a week (or a year after all of the political wankery). How long will it take to train and arm the Police? (yes, i understand that there are some who are already trained)

What's more important? Lives? Cost? Political Wankery?

[Toaster]

Why not have an armed soldier ride along on the beats that need it? They're already trained in weapons?


As per the Crimes Act, only a constable can use deadly force. The Army have enough to do and their focus and training when it comes to actually firing a rifle, gun or otherwide has a completely different focus.

With the defence review, I doubt they will have anything spare to do their own work and training. Cutbacks ahead for the Services.

[mashman]

As per the Crimes Act, only a constable can use deadly force.


Acts/Laws can be ammended in a matter of days, just ask those hollywood chaps who held NZ over the financial barrel for the Hobbit movie :). Sounds like it needs to be changed.



With the defence review, I doubt they will have anything spare to do their own work and training. Cutbacks ahead for the Services.

Very True... Guess it's to be left in the hands of TPTB as per :shifty:

[jasonu]

That's kinda the point :yes:.

They're already paid for by the public to serve the country.
They're trained to shoot and kill, and will most likely hit the target (unlike the Police J/K, to a degree).
They may have access to night vision (amongst other toys) etc... that Police don't.
They were brought in during the Molenaar thing, so have experience.
They're sitting around in barracks when they could be doing "other" things.

and likely many more reasons why they could be of benefit...

Would that be enough of a deterrent, knowing that there's an automatic rifle pointed at you when you pull over? It'd certainly make me think twice before attacking a Police person...

I'd rather not arm the Police when there are already trained armed personnel in the country :). Maximum cover for Police at next to no cost...

Just a thought :)

Millitary acting as cops is called Martial Law. Times for that in otherwise 'normal' societys have been in emergincies like New Orleans after Katrina, not enough cops to stop the looting and such, and the LA riots cause there weren't enough cops to stop the gigs from fucking up their own stuff. Give the cops pistols that they will carry in full view in a holster, train them how to use them properly, don't send them out on their own and that should be good enough to stop little peckerheads like these two from doing shit like this. Watch an episode of 'Cops' you will see armed cops in teams of 2 or more, with heaps of imediate back up, with in car video survailence dishing it out to arseholes. I like the way they will put the suspect in cuffs then interview them, safer for all.
I am unfamiliar with the Molenaar case. My guess is there was some sort of shoot out and the cop with the key to the gun cabinet was on break or in the bog so the military was called in as they were the only ones ready to fight guns with guns. Just a guess.

[mashman]

Millitary acting as cops is called Martial Law. Times for that in otherwise 'normal' societys have been in emergincies like New Orleans after Katrina, not enough cops to stop the looting and such, and the LA riots cause there weren't enough cops to stop the gigs from fucking up their own stuff. Give the cops pistols that they will carry in full view in a holster, train them how to use them properly, don't send them out on their own and that should be good enough to stop little peckerheads like these two from doing shit like this. Watch an episode of 'Cops' you will see armed cops in teams of 2 or more, with heaps of imediate back up, with in car video survailence dishing it out to arseholes. I like the way they will put the suspect in cuffs then interview them, safer for all.
I am unfamiliar with the Molenaar case. My guess is there was some sort of shoot out and the cop with the key to the gun cabinet was on break or in the bog so the military was called in as they were the only ones ready to fight guns with guns. Just a guess.

Martial Law is a bit of a dramatic comparison isn't it? you're from the US :shifty: (j/k)

Arming and Training a Police Force, no disrespect intended to anyone, takes time and money that, NZ doesn't have. No time, because with the Police training all of the time, there'd be none on the streets. Unless you'd be happy with, here, have a gun, try not to shoot yourself, go catch bad guys. Crime doesn't stop for training.

IF there had been a Soldier covering the fallen officer at the time? you reckon this incindent woulda turned out any better? would it have happened at all? From behind, with a Machete? disgusting!

A Soldier Ride Along, instead of a camera man hopin to get some good Telly, Ride Along... heh, i reckon some Soldiers would happily volunteer for the duty. They could even skills share and cross-train :shit:. Rinse and repeat and eventually the Soldiers will faze out, or until there's a massive shift in thinking :shit:, and hopefully there will have been some useful skills shared too. We're always learning :).

For NZ... The Soldier would be there to Guard the Police person. We could have them in cars pretty ?quickly? and for a fraction of the cost of arming and training the Police. Don't shoot unless the Police person orders it. Return Fire if either of you is in the poo. Anything that blurs the lines, figure it out quickly :yes: they may have a rocket launcher (movie drama :))... A much better approach for NZ i woulda thought? Criminals would be quickly aware of this :yes:

?quickly? = why can't you just turn up to a barracks, get on a range, find the best marksmen of the day, offer them the gig and have them start a week on friday? You are the government after all. And it is pretty much FREE to do and those Police that need cover, get it now instead of when the legislation is ready :).

(providing their are volunteers too, and that the public would be happy about it :)) :rofl:

Martial Law he says...

Molenaar: cops smelled grass. Found a pissed off guy that opened fire. Killed a cop and a dog, wounded another 2 cops and a civilian. Killed himself when he realised he was screwed. Protecting some of his living. :facepalm:

[BoristheBiter]

Molenaar: cops smelled grass. Found a pissed off guy that opened fire. Killed a cop and a dog, wounded another 2 cops and a civilian. Killed himself when he realised he was screwed. Protecting some of his living. :facepalm:

Not to split hairs but that is two different incidents you have there.

[scumdog]

Not to split hairs but that is two different incidents you have there.

And here was I thinking it was yet another incident all together...:shit:

[mashman]

Not to split hairs but that is two different incidents you have there.

Very true, my apologies :yes:. I seem to have mixed and mis-matched.

[Scuba_Steve]

And look at that people a cop that agrees with me

"Arming police would not make job any safer" (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4467942/Arming-police-would-not-make-job-any-safer-says-rural-officer)

(Worth reading the article but here's a couple of extracts)

Mr Singer said the lot of a sole- charge police officer meant they could face dangerous situations alone, but arming them would not make the job any safer

People should be aware that if police start carrying firearms the relationship between them and officers would change, he said.

"There won't be any walking up to a police officer and talking or remonstrating with them face to face. You won't be able to do that if the cop's got a gun on.

"He'll have you backed off six or seven metres away ... You won't allow people to get that close if you're armed."

And so along with neither cops nor public being any safer (& most likely less safe), the respect for cops would be even less than now, as you would no longer be able to approach a cop for help or guidance. CQC is still the safest & most effective route to take.

[oldrider]

And look at that people a cop that agrees with me

"Arming police would not make job any safer" (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4467942/Arming-police-would-not-make-job-any-safer-says-rural-officer)

(Worth reading the article but here's a couple of extracts)



And so along with neither cops nor public being any safer (& most likely less safe), the respect for cops would be even less than now, as you would no longer be able to approach a cop for help or guidance. CQC is still the safest & most effective route to take.

I just read the article and find this quote contradictory: Ad Feedback

Mr Singer has never had to use a firearm in a tense situation as a police officer, though he did wear one each day on a six-month stint in Timor Leste in 2008.

But he has taken a Glock pistol or Bushranger rifle on a job. "I've been lucky. I've had a few knocks but I've never had to curl up in a ball because I'm getting a hiding [as Mr Mellor did]".

People should be aware that if police start carrying firearms the relationship between them and officers would change, he said.

Is constable Stringer blond or something, the relationship between police and the public has got to change, for obvious reasons! :facepalm:

[jasonu]

Martial Law is a bit of a dramatic comparison isn't it? you're from the US :shifty: (j/k)

Arming and Training a Police Force, no disrespect intended to anyone, takes time and money that, NZ doesn't have. No time, because with the Police training all of the time, there'd be none on the streets. Unless you'd be happy with, here, have a gun, try not to shoot yourself, go catch bad guys. Crime doesn't stop for training.

IF there had been a Soldier covering the fallen officer at the time? you reckon this incindent woulda turned out any better? would it have happened at all? From behind, with a Machete? disgusting!

A Soldier Ride Along, instead of a camera man hopin to get some good Telly, Ride Along... heh, i reckon some Soldiers would happily volunteer for the duty. They could even skills share and cross-train :shit:. Rinse and repeat and eventually the Soldiers will faze out, or until there's a massive shift in thinking :shit:, and hopefully there will have been some useful skills shared too. We're always learning :).

For NZ... The Soldier would be there to Guard the Police person. We could have them in cars pretty ?quickly? and for a fraction of the cost of arming and training the Police. Don't shoot unless the Police person orders it. Return Fire if either of you is in the poo. Anything that blurs the lines, figure it out quickly :yes: they may have a rocket launcher (movie drama :))... A much better approach for NZ i woulda thought? Criminals would be quickly aware of this :yes:

?quickly? = why can't you just turn up to a barracks, get on a range, find the best marksmen of the day, offer them the gig and have them start a week on friday? You are the government after all. And it is pretty much FREE to do and those Police that need cover, get it now instead of when the legislation is ready :).

(providing their are volunteers too, and that the public would be happy about it :)) :rofl:

Martial Law he says...

Molenaar: cops smelled grass. Found a pissed off guy that opened fire. Killed a cop and a dog, wounded another 2 cops and a civilian. Killed himself when he realised he was screwed. Protecting some of his living. :facepalm:

No mate, I am a Kiwi, been living in the US for 12 years. When I mentioned martial law, I was saying that is what having the army doing the policeing is, not to actually turn to martial law. It seems the government (10 years of Aunty Helen and a bunch of PC fuckwits) have ruined the police force, not enough time to train properly and not enough new recruits so as not to put officers in the position of being alone like in this case. If you watch cop reality shows from here and the UK you will notice in car video and audio survailence, that is what I was referring to, not actual camera people filming for telly. While not as good as an actual partner, the video has been proven to be a deterrant to incidences such as this one as the potential wrong dooer knows he is being filmed and this film is used as evidence.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a soldier with a machine gun ready to deal to little cunts like these two, I really think the govt needs to fix the police force rather than go for a 'quick fix' or cheap(er) solution.

[mashman]

No mate, I am a Kiwi, been living in the US for 12 years. When I mentioned martial law, I was saying that is what having the army doing the policeing is, not to actually turn to martial law. It seems the government (10 years of Aunty Helen and a bunch of PC fuckwits) have ruined the police force, not enough time to train properly and not enough new recruits so as not to put officers in the position of being alone like in this case. If you watch cop reality shows from here and the UK you will notice in car video and audio survailence, that is what I was referring to, not actual camera people filming for telly. While not as good as an actual partner, the video has been proven to be a deterrant to incidences such as this one as the potential wrong dooer knows he is being filmed and this film is used as evidence.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a soldier with a machine gun ready to deal to little cunts like these two, I really think the govt needs to fix the police force rather than go for a 'quick fix' or cheap(er) solution.

I've only been here 4 years :), English :facepalm:... Shame it takes time, money and potentially lives to get a trained force (although i'd still rather they not arm the police directly)... Damned if ya do eh... Me thinks we expect too much of our governments :blink:

[scissorhands]

Me thinks we expect too much of our governments :blink:

I expect little and get nothing in return.

They have the power to stop people attacking each other? They have the power to reduce the likelihood, to lower the odds, put acid in the water supply


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRgHSxWnhqk

[BoristheBiter]

I've only been here 4 years :), English :facepalm:... Shame it takes time, money and potentially lives to get a trained force (although i'd still rather they not arm the police directly)... Damned if ya do eh... Me thinks we expect too much of our governments :blink:

When i was in France in 97 there was a problem with some nutty terrorists so they put two soldiers with one cop even though he was armed.
We found out later the guy with the machine gun had a couple of rounds ready and his mate had the rest of the ammo so he could fire a few rounds off but if he had it taken away from him it was basically unloaded and other than using it as a bat it was basically useless.

[Ocean1]

the guy with the machine gun had a couple of rounds ready and his mate had the rest of the ammo so he could fire a few rounds off but if he had it taken away from him it was basically unloaded and other than using it as a bat it was basically useless.

Is a good strategy. I've wondered before why there seems little work in developing personnel-specific systems. With a comparitively modest budget I reckon I could produce an assault rifle that would work only in the hands of the guy it was issued to.

Add com’s to enable it to be turned off remotely.

[oldrider]

Is a good strategy. Add com’s to enable it to be turned off remotely.

Can you make a device like that that fits the average politician's mouth? :rolleyes:

[mashman]

When i was in France in 97 there was a problem with some nutty terrorists so they put two soldiers with one cop even though he was armed.
We found out later the guy with the machine gun had a couple of rounds ready and his mate had the rest of the ammo so he could fire a few rounds off but if he had it taken away from him it was basically unloaded and other than using it as a bat it was basically useless.

heh, great idea :yes: I'd still rather the Police weren't armed at all though :)

[BoristheBiter]

heh, great idea :yes: I'd still rather the Police weren't armed at all though :)

We were talking with some old family friends last night and there son is RUC and in all his time there, i think a good 20 years, is yet to pull his gun.
I also know cops here that have never been assaulted and know ones that seem to get it every week.
We have to get over the fact that this isn't the NZ we grew up with, well some of us, and realize that measures have to be taken to insure it will still be there for our children.

[Ocean1]

We have to get over the fact that this isn't the NZ we grew up with, well some of us, and realize that measures have to be taken to insure it will still be there for our children.

Forced emigration.

We'll need an island.

Nothing fancy....

[ynot slow]

Forced emigration.

We'll need an island.

Nothing fancy....

West Island ala Australia,they have experience with crims from couple of centuries ago.

[Flip]

Martial Law is a bit of a dramatic comparison isn't it? you're from the US :shifty: (j/k)

Arming and Training a Police Force, no disrespect intended to anyone, takes time and money that, NZ doesn't have. No time, because with the Police training all of the time, there'd be none on the streets. Unless you'd be happy with, here, have a gun, try not to shoot yourself, go catch bad guys. Crime doesn't stop for training.

IF there had been a Soldier covering the fallen officer at the time? you reckon this incindent woulda turned out any better? would it have happened at all? From behind, with a Machete? disgusting!

A Soldier Ride Along, instead of a camera man hopin to get some good Telly, Ride Along... heh, i reckon some Soldiers would happily volunteer for the duty. They could even skills share and cross-train :shit:. Rinse and repeat and eventually the Soldiers will faze out, or until there's a massive shift in thinking :shit:, and hopefully there will have been some useful skills shared too. We're always learning :).

For NZ... The Soldier would be there to Guard the Police person. We could have them in cars pretty ?quickly? and for a fraction of the cost of arming and training the Police. Don't shoot unless the Police person orders it. Return Fire if either of you is in the poo. Anything that blurs the lines, figure it out quickly :yes: they may have a rocket launcher (movie drama :))... A much better approach for NZ i woulda thought? Criminals would be quickly aware of this :yes:

?quickly? = why can't you just turn up to a barracks, get on a range, find the best marksmen of the day, offer them the gig and have them start a week on friday? You are the government after all. And it is pretty much FREE to do and those Police that need cover, get it now instead of when the legislation is ready :).

(providing their are volunteers too, and that the public would be happy about it :)) :rofl:

Martial Law he says...

Molenaar: cops smelled grass. Found a pissed off guy that opened fire. Killed a cop and a dog, wounded another 2 cops and a civilian. Killed himself when he realised he was screwed. Protecting some of his living. :facepalm:

IMHO Solders make terrible Police men, when the shit hits the fan Solders switch to full auto, its what they do, take from me a Solder won't be happy with a POS bushmaster. Solders are trained to kill the enemy.

One the other hand Rozza make fucking terrible Solders, first they seem to think that a vehicle stops a rifle bullet, three eights of an inch of armor plate just stops a (gutless) AK47 round, secondly the Rozza are trained to get prosecutions.

[awayatc]

heh, great idea :yes: I'd still rather the Police weren't armed at all though :)

What about legless then...........?

[Smifffy]

We were talking with some old family friends last night and there son is RUC and in all his time there, i think a good 20 years, is yet to pull his gun.
I also know cops here that have never been assaulted and know ones that seem to get it every week.
We have to get over the fact that this isn't the NZ we grew up with, well some of us, and realize that measures have to be taken to insure it will still be there for our children.

Yup, and IMO we shouldn't fuck around with those that didn't grow up here, if they don't want to play nice with the rest of us, they can fuck off back to where they grew up.

:facepalm:

[_Shrek_]

Forced emigration.

We'll need an island.

Nothing fancy....

Rangitoto comes to mind :corn:

[mashman]

IMHO Solders make terrible Police men, when the shit hits the fan Solders switch to full auto, its what they do, take from me a Solder won't be happy with a POS bushmaster. Solders are trained to kill the enemy.

One the other hand Rozza make fucking terrible Solders, first they seem to think that a vehicle stops a rifle bullet, three eights of an inch of armor plate just stops a (gutless) AK47 round, secondly the Rozza are trained to get prosecutions.

That's kinda the point though. If the shit is hitting the fan for an Officer, they're generally in the poop, and could do with some form of instant backup and cover in the form of a hail of Soldier directed bullets... I'd expect merry hell to be unleashed to protect the Officer. Dunno if an Officer would ever request such a thing, or whether a Soldier would do the job, or whether it's even a sane option :)...

[Ocean1]

That's kinda the point though. If the shit is hitting the fan for an Officer, they're generally in the poop, and could do with some form of instant backup and cover in the form of a hail of Soldier directed bullets... I'd expect merry hell to be unleashed to protect the Officer. Dunno if an Officer would ever request such a thing, or whether a Soldier would do the job, or whether it's even a sane option :)...

He's right. A cops role is largely babysitting and peacekeeping. At least the ones not collecting revenue.<_< Military training produces skills which are almost the direct antithesis.

The only way I can see it working is in a situation where you actually needed both set of skills. In other words an armed insurrection. Like the ACC protest one planned for next… :shutup:

[freedom-wedge]

Bring it on i say,chopping off rapists and kiddie fiddlers dicks would be a good place to start eh.

somthing we can agree on I see, and greater onus on those who try and rehab these fucks, the lines been crossed end of story, no second chances for these dispicable crimes, one can recover from a physical beating with exceptions, but the hurt caused by the violation that you speak of, lasts for ever, they are in affect guilty of murdering innocence.

[mashman]

He's right. A cops role is largely babysitting and peacekeeping. At least the ones not collecting revenue.<_< Military training produces skills which are almost the direct antithesis.

The only way I can see it working is in a situation where you actually needed both set of skills. In other words an armed insurrection. Like the ACC protest one planned for next… :shutup:

Don't get me wrong, with my limited knowledge of each role, that's kinda what I was expecting, poles apart (to a degree, they're both human)... and I was agreeing with Flip and yourself in that respect. They do do very different jobs that I believe would compliment each other given certain environments... like lone cop etc...

Agreed, you would hope that the Soldier would never need to use his/her skills, but more there as a deterrent or instant backup, just in case a situation arises where the Officer needs protection... "planned for next" :killingme

Meh!!! unfortunately, well perhaps fortunately, I don't get to make the rules, but it'd certainly be something that I'd accept, personally, as someone who could end up on the end of the barrel... I've had a tank barrel pointed in my face before, a gun behind me that i'll never see won't worry me too much, but I know it'll be there...

[BoristheBiter]

Don't get me wrong, with my limited knowledge of each role, that's kinda what I was expecting, poles apart (to a degree, they're both human)... and I was agreeing with Flip and yourself in that respect. They do do very different jobs that I believe would compliment each other given certain environments... like lone cop etc...

Agreed, you would hope that the Soldier would never need to use his/her skills, but more there as a deterrent or instant backup, just in case a situation arises where the Officer needs protection... "planned for next" :killingme

..


Why do we get insurance? because shit happens so we get protected for any eventuality.

Why should protecting ones self be any different?

[mashman]

Why do we get insurance? because shit happens so we get protected for any eventuality.

Why should protecting ones self be any different?

Sorry, not sure I follow ya there BtB...

[BoristheBiter]

Sorry, not sure I follow ya there BtB...

I see what you mean.

I was meaning that we have insurance (car/bike, house, contents etc) in the event of something going wrong but we hope that nothing ever does but we know at anytime, through no fault of our own, shit can happen.

It is the same for the police, they have a range of tools to protect themselves for when shit happens, and the gun is the end of the list.

I also think they should look at non lethal forms of firearms like rubber bullets and bean bags. yes i know these have been known to kill but like tasers there are only a few. someone looking down the barrel of a shotgun has no idea what it is loaded with.

[mashman]

I see what you mean.

I was meaning that we have insurance (car/bike, house, contents etc) in the event of something going wrong but we hope that nothing ever does but we know at anytime, through no fault of our own, shit can happen.

It is the same for the police, they have a range of tools to protect themselves for when shit happens, and the gun is the end of the list.

I also think they should look at non lethal forms of firearms like rubber bullets and bean bags. yes i know these have been known to kill but like tasers there are only a few. someone looking down the barrel of a shotgun has no idea what it is loaded with.

Gotcha... Police do have a range of tools to protect themselves, but as mentioned elsewhere, having a gun in the car ain't gonna help when the fucktards kick off... Having a gun loaded and ready by the car, with someone who knows and is trained to kill holding it, would be a pretty good insurance policy?

I was wondering about rubber bullets, salt pellets etc... How are they when it comes to vehicle penetration? If someone's shooting from a car, would those "bullets" stop those inside the vehicle? That's the only qualm I have with other "bullets"...

I would prefer to be approached by unarmed officers, personal choice and no doubt different for all. And to a certain extent that's what one of the Officers in one of the links "championed"... it may well make the Police less approachable... it may have the opposite affect... perhaps someday, once the legislation has been written, a couple more cops have paid the price at the hands of fucktards, politicians finally make their minds up etc..., we may find out :)...