What is a "good" driver?

[p.dath]

I'm participating in a discussion paper at the moment about the driver licensing system. One of the things that keeps coming up is about making "better" drivers (actually this applies to all road users, cyclists, pedestrians, motorcyclists, etc).

It seems to me that before a system can be modified to produce "good" drivers, you first have to decide what a "good" driver is. Otherwise you'll never get there.

So please, share your opinion with me. What does a "good" driver mean to you? I am specifically referring to the use of the public road network here.

[firefighter]

Me, i'm fucken awesome

[MSTRS]

Someone who takes their brain with them, and leaves their ego at home?

[Bald Eagle]

A good driver applies full attention to the driving task. Has good mechanical skills to operate the equipment and is situationally aware of both his/her own vehicle and other road users and hazards in the environment.

[Scuba_Steve]

yea I'm with firefighter on this... Me :yes:

Someone who is 'aware' & can 'handle' their vehicle. That is it in simplest form.

[James Deuce]

Someone who is open to learning new things and learning from mistakes.

In other words: No NZ Licence holder.

[mashman]

I much prefer a 5 wood :shifty:

Drivers who are courteous enough to understand that they're not the only person on the road, will share the road they're on, someone that'll drive to ALL of the conditions, road conditions, traffic conditions, vehicle conditions, personal condition etc...

[p.dath]

Me, i'm fucken awesome

86% of drivers believe they are above average. :)

[Drunken Monkey]

To put it simply, "Courteous and safe".

'Courteous' generally being shown by good practical application of the road code, driving in a manner which is not likely to frustrate other road users and driving in such a manner as to not frustrate one's self.

'Safe' generally meaning driving/riding in such a manner as to minimize or mitigate chances of damage or endangerment to self, others or property.

I think those are fair values to aim for.

[p.dath]

A good driver applies full attention to the driving task. Has good mechanical skills to operate the equipment and is situationally aware of both his/her own vehicle and other road users and hazards in the environment.

That's a good start, but I want something more like a checklist that a person can read and say, yes I do that, no I don't do that, so I'm a 2 star driver, 5 star driver, etc.

Something measurable. The problem with general concepts is that people can full themselves into believing they are "good".

[admenk]

Surely most of the contributors to KB, judging from their posts :innocent:

[Scuba_Steve]

That's a good start, but I want something more like a checklist that a person can read and say, yes I do that, no I don't do that, so I'm a 2 star driver, 5 star driver, etc.

Something measurable. The problem with general concepts is that people can full themselves into believing they are "good".

problem is "good" is kinda a "how long is a piece of string" measure.

[Okey Dokey]

Checklist? Here are some ideas...

How often do I check my rear view mirror?
Do I indicate every time I go through a roundabout?
Do I clean my windscreen when it is dirty/frosty, or just rely on the wipers once I am already driving?
Do I understand and use the 2 second rule?

[Banditbandit]

Me, i'm fucken awesome

Him .. pick him ... he reckons he's a good driver ..

[Ronin]

86% of drivers believe they are above average. :)

Is that the same 86% of drivers who this this |============| is 8 inches?

Someone who has good observational skills. Sufficiant driving skills to handle extreme braking situation/ slides.

[firefighter]

Him .. pick him ... he reckons he's a good driver ..

I'm glad that blatant piss-take did'nt escape anyone.....

[p.dath]

Checklist? Here are some ideas...

How often do I check my rear view mirror?
Do I indicate every time I go through a roundabout?
Do I clean my windscreen when it is dirty/frosty, or just rely on the wipers once I am already driving?
Do I understand and use the 2 second rule?

Also consider other non-skills areas. Is someone that is temporarily mentally impaired (such as drugs, alcohol) a good driver? What about someone permanently mentally impaired (such as dementia)? What about the speed of the reflexes of the driver?

We have left and right brain people. Does a good driver process information conceptually or analytically?

Is a good driver able to cope with distraction? How much? How about the ability to process multiple threats simultaneously? How many?

When you start thinking about what a "good" driver "should" be, it encompasses a lot of things.

[p.dath]

Does a good driver try to improve their education by continuing to train to be a better driver? By learning about new technology? By practising with new technology?

What about other road users? Does a good "driver" train in other licence classes so as to understand the threats from other road users perspective?

Does a good driver have medical skills to assist at accidents?

Is a good driver someone who is "well" (as in not sick)?

What about attitude? Is a good driver calm or aggressive?

[Drunken Monkey]

A good driver applies full attention to the driving task. Has good mechanical skills to operate the equipment and is situationally aware of both his/her own vehicle and other road users and hazards in the environment.

Semantics of course, but I would say for me this defines a good motorist, as opposed to a good driver. They aren't always the same thing. Just how I see it, anyway.

[Smifffy]

IMO A good driver is a lot like the OSH idea for safe workers:

Someone that causes no harm or material damage to themselves or others, through either their actions or their inactions.

[EJK]

Give way</10char>

[James Deuce]

You're better off asking what makes a bad driver. Process of elimination and all that.

[neels]

You're better off asking what makes a bad driver.
The guy I saw on the way home from work tonight that turned left from the right turning lane (with no lane to go into) and cleaned up a cyclist.

Or the bloke I know that I followed for about 10k's the other day driving at either 15kph under or 15kph over the limit (65kph regardless of the speed limit), oblivious to me when I pulled up at the lights beside him and waved.

But defining a 'good' driver is almost impossible, all you can really do is identify common bad driving habits and try and somehow correct them. Good luck with that.

[Gremlin]

A good driver applies full attention to the driving task. Has good mechanical skills to operate the equipment and is situationally aware of both his/her own vehicle and other road users and hazards in the environment.
wot e sed... then you weren't happy...

hmmm... checklist...

- not distracted by objects in car (makeup, food, phones)
- scanning their environment for potential hazards and adjusting their driving to suit
- not holding up other drivers when the road in front is clear (travelling under the speed limit for no reason, accelerating so slowly that they never come close to the speed limit before slowing for the next traffic light etc)
- following the road rules (sounds easy... barely done in practise... indicating at roundabouts, lane changes etc etc)
- letting other drivers in, when in heavy traffic, from side roads (contrary to the seemingly popular belief, this does actually make traffic flow faster)
- able to control their cars at variable speeds and conditions. It amazes me how many have the cars driving them.
- a little bit of patience... just a little, coz asking for a lot wouldn't happen... probably guilty of it myself.

[SMOKEU]

Someone who knows how to peel a mean skid, do a mad handbrakie and can hold a sick drift.

[p.dath]

You're better off asking what makes a bad driver. Process of elimination and all that.

I want to focus on positive outcomes, as in what to do, not negative outcomes, as in not what to do.

For example, I want to avoid arguments that measure how "good" a driver is by how many tickets they get; by how many km/h that they drive over the limit, etc. My personal opinion is that focusing on these metrics (which we tend to do through our current enforcement system) wont make "good" drivers.

[Scuba_Steve]

What makes a good driver???... Common sense! :yes:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2630/3907175514_2a59c2a9d1.jpg

[Laxi]

one that stays the fuck of my roads ( I own em all btw)

[Okey Dokey]

Also consider other non-skills areas. Is someone that is temporarily mentally impaired (such as drugs, alcohol) a good driver? What about someone permanently mentally impaired (such as dementia)? What about the speed of the reflexes of the driver?

We have left and right brain people. Does a good driver process information conceptually or analytically?

Is a good driver able to cope with distraction? How much? How about the ability to process multiple threats simultaneously? How many?

When you start thinking about what a "good" driver "should" be, it encompasses a lot of things.

Jeez, I had exam questions in University that were easier than this! :scratch::crazy::eek:

[cbfb]

That's a good start, but I want something more like a checklist that a person can read and say, yes I do that, no I don't do that, so I'm a 2 star driver, 5 star driver, etc.

Something measurable. The problem with general concepts is that people can full themselves into believing they are "good".

Too true. Asking someone if they're a good driver is like asking them if they're good in bed.

With that in mind, I think one of the key elements of being a good driver (and rider) is recognising that you're not infallible and have plenty to learn regardless of age/experience.

I would add that a good driver is aware of the potentially horrific consequences of them making a mistake. Just a second's inattention could ruin or end lives. EVERYONE who's had a licence longer than 5 minutes has made some sort of error of judgement on the road and most get away with it; for the unlucky few it can be deadly. This awareness makes me at least think twice about speeding, tailgaiting, etc.

Finally - you might want to differentiate between a technically good driver (i.e. someone who could perform on the race track) and a 'safe' driver suited to road driving. Unfortunately a lot of people have the two very confused.

[James Deuce]

I want to focus on positive outcomes, as in what to do, not negative outcomes, as in not what to do.

For example, I want to avoid arguments that measure how "good" a driver is by how many tickets they get; by how many km/h that they drive over the limit, etc. My personal opinion is that focusing on these metrics (which we tend to do through our current enforcement system) wont make "good" drivers.

That's not what I said, nor did I impose "negative" outcomes with my suggestion.

Identify the negative, then by a process of elimination document the positive.

[p.dath]

Finally - you might want to differentiate between a technically good driver (i.e. someone who could perform on the race track) and a 'safe' driver suited to road driving. Unfortunately a lot of people have the two very confused.

I should have clarified. I mean a good driver when on the public road network in NZ.

[Scuba_Steve]

I should have clarified. I mean a good driver when on the public road network in NZ.

now do you mean "good" legally or "good" safely?

[p.dath]

now do you mean "good" legally or "good" safely?

I mean "good". I want your opinion on what a "good" driver is. You decide.

[BMWST?]

That's a good start, but I want something more like a checklist that a person can read and say, yes I do that, no I don't do that, so I'm a 2 star driver, 5 star driver, etc.

Something measurable. The problem with general concepts is that people can full themselves into believing they are "good".

how often does something happens that surprises you?(not you personally)If a car appears out of no where,appears to cut you off etc etc.If it keeps happening you need to look at your OWN driving,not the other fellas....
Too many people confuse the actual physical driving skills with being a good driver...thats not the definition i would use.

[davebullet]

A good driver:
Lets the motorcycle past
Lets the motorcycle split
Lets the motorcycle lean against it when the motorcycle is tired
Gives up his parking space for a motorcycle
Offers $30 to fill up the motorcycle's tank
Lies down in a puddle of mud in front of said motorcycle to stop it getting dirty (and to test compression and rebound settings for judder bars at the same time)
Strokes the ego of the motorcyclist. If said driver is of the female persuasion, she is allowed to stroke other things too

I like good drivers.

[Berries]

1. Knows the Road Rules. I don’t mean blindly complying with all of them at all times, but having the mental ability to understand when they should be followed. Knowing how to use things like right turn bays, indicators and what giving way to pedestrians actually means etc etc etc.

2. Situational and positional awareness so that they know what is going on around them, not just in the road ahead.

3. Hazard perception.

4. An understanding of how other types of vehicles work. Like a turning truck may take up more than its own lane at an intersection, or a motorbike may filter down one side of them in heavy traffic.

5. Being able to ride/drive to the conditions. Sometimes the weather means you should slow down a bit. Sometimes you should put your lights on before it gets dark. Anyone driving without their lights on when 90% of others are due to the weather should be banned for 28 days on the spot.

6. A certain level of courtesy to other road users. Except cyclists of course.

7. An understanding of the consequences when things go wrong, as shown to great affect in the new TAC advert posted in this thread - http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/132082-TAC-Christmas-safety-ad

Where it all falls down is that to most people their vehicle is just a means of getting from A to B and if they don’t want to learn any of the above then they aren’t going to. You can test people’s knowledge, but there is no guarantee that it will transfer to their driving behavior.

[scissorhands]

Speed is a real factor, aggression often white young males, vision being able to see ahead up the road a bit, emotions not losing it or becoming melancholic like some females before a crash, good tyres at harder pressures are safer, I run 45 psi instead of 32.

Tiredness and correct nutrition. Ignorance like some immigrant accidents

[Berries]

Ignorance like some immigrant accidents
Not forgetting that locals are probably more ignorant and have a much easier path to getting a driving licence than many immigrants.

[p.dath]

Thanks for all your valuable input. Below is an initial list of what I have compiled for what I consider to be a good driver. I'm interested in your comments.

ps. I typed this up in notepad, so the spelling wont be good.



Being a "Good Driver" requires a commitment everytime you use the public road network. Because you are a "good driver" on one trip does not mean you will be a good driver on the next trip. It must be something continually strived for.

Ethical Qualities (aka, attitudes)
----------------------------------------
* Someone that causes no harm or material damage to themselves or others, through either their actions or their inactions
* Courteous to all users of the public roading network
* Considerate of all users of the public roading network
* Strives to continually improve their skills through training and education

Mental Qualities
---------------------
* Alert (opposite of being tired)
* Awareness (ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns)
- implies no alcohol, drugs or medications and that the person is well
* Attentive (observant, thoughtful of others)
* Small amount of anxiety/consideration of self preservation (realisation of the risks being undertaken)
* Temperate (does not use the public roading network while under the influence of anger, sadness, agression, or other unhelpfull emotions)
* Sufficient will to do what they know is "right" (Not influenced by passengers or road users around them)
* Not susceptable to "Red Mist" (the condition of being fixated on one task, such as overtaking, to the extent they can no longer assess risk)

Physical Qualities
----------------------
* Has fast reflexes able to respond to rapdily changing environments
* Has sufficient strength and mobility for the vehicle being operated to be able to control it.
* Physicall well enough to not impair physical driving abilities (e,g. not continually sneezing, watering eyes, wearing corrective glasses if needed, etc)

Skills/Knowledge
----------------------
* Hazard Detection/Situational Awareness/Scanning
* Ability to continually plan their use of the public road network based on the observations made of the developing situation, so surprises are limited
- Recognises the conditions and plans/drives to them.
* Ability to handle different road surfaces, tarseal, gravel, wet, dry
* Recognises and removes distractions from their immediate environment (ipod, cell phones, etc)
* Able to smoothly control major input mechanisms of vehicle (steering, braking, accelerating, changing gear)
* Aware of road rules
* Ability to appropriately apply road rules based on the conditions
* Ability to verify basic safety of vehicle (indicator/brake lights working, that the brakes are working, etc)
* Basic first aid/Emergency first aide
* Able to smoothly control the machine being operated (particularly speed and steering)
* Ability to handle emergencies (placing the machine into planned gaps, emergency stops, skid recovery, etc)
* Ability to manouver smoothly and safely (cornering, stopping, parking)
* Places the machine being operated appropriately on the road, relative to other road users and the cirumstances that develop (e,g. cornering, following distance, etc)
* Operates the machine predictably so other road users can be confident of what is about to happen (does not suddenly change lanes, suddenly brake, etc)

[James Deuce]

The physical qualities first point section is BS. If you're relying on measurable neurological reaction times on the road then you're already a shit driver.

[Marmoot]

You're missing one point: a good driver should never hesitate to say sorry after making a mistake, or objectively evaluate the possibility of having made a mistake when pointed out to by someone to learn and progress from it (rather than simply act defensively in such occassion).

[Swoop]

86% of drivers believe they are above average. :)
86% of drivers have deluded themselves.:facepalm:

Below is an initial list of what I have compiled for what I consider to be a good driver. I'm interested in your comments
Mental Qualities
---------------------
* Alert (opposite of being tired)
Just the opposite of being tired?
A lot of people are fresh as a daisy in the morning and still would not be able to be described as being "alert" when it comes to operating a vehicle.:blink:

[cbfb]

I should have clarified. I mean a good driver when on the public road network in NZ.

Nah I got your point, what I meant was a lot of people see handling skills as the sign of a good driver. While drifting round a hairpin might be pretty to look at on the track, it's got nothing to do with being a good driver on the open road. Unfortunately I've got mates who don't realise this distinction and seem to think they're immune to danger or mistakes because they somehow have this magical ability to control a vehicle perfectly. Example - the delusion that they can stop within a few inches if someone pulls out on them at 100ks...

[James Deuce]

You're missing one point: a good driver should never hesitate to say sorry after making a mistake, or objectively evaluate the possibility of having made a mistake when pointed out to by someone to learn and progress from it (rather than simply act defensively in such occassion).
You may want to listen to this point folks. People keep saying this and you're ignoring it Mr Dath.

[Usarka]

Focused on the task at hand.
Decisive.


86% of drivers believe they are above average. :)

Ignoring the fact that most NZ drivers are shit, it is entirely possible statistically for 86% to be above average.

[Scuba_Steve]

Thanks for all your valuable input. Below is an initial list of what I have compiled for what I consider to be a good driver. I'm interested in your comments.


Think your well on to it there


You're missing one point: a good driver should never hesitate to say sorry after making a mistake

Well theres a question right there, how do you apologize for an honest mistake when you can't talk to them? I'm sure many an apology goes misunderstood as a "i don't care" or "up yours".

[PirateJafa]

The "best" driver in any given road situation is the one in the largest vehicle, of course.

I love our work trucks.

[James Deuce]

Well theres a question right there, how do you apologize for an honest mistake when you can't talk to them? I'm sure many an apology goes misunderstood as a "i don't care" or "up yours".

There's a variety of non-verbal ways to communicate from the interior of your vehicle. Do you really need help with that? Most people do insult other drivers when they make mistakes. There is no misunderstanding a middle finger, a waved fist, or an angry blast of the horn. Get it a lot from people who refuse to Give Way.

I think that people need to wander up to hospital after they've hurt someone and apologise. Doesn't happen though. Similarly they should attend the funerals of people they kill and apologise to the entire extended family.

[Scuba_Steve]

There's a variety of non-verbal ways to communicate from the interior of your vehicle. Do you really need help with that? .

you think so? first theres the seats to contend with so it has to be high enough to see tint doesn't help. most i've seen look like the "i didn't see you but I didn't really care either" shrug. the "I don't know what i'm doing" arm wave/spasm. the "hi too late now u miss out" wave. all of these can be taken 2 or more ways so none of them are a perfect apology gesture

[p.dath]

The physical qualities first point section is BS. If you're relying on measurable neurological reaction times on the road then you're already a shit driver.

I'm talking about qualities that make a good driver, not a shit driver. Even with good planning, a very small percentage of problems occur with little warning. It seems to me that a good driver would be able to respond rapidly to these.

Perhaps a better way of putting it is that a "good" driver should operate their machine within their own physical limitations, such as reaction time, eyesight, etc.

This acknowledges that some older drivers who react slower but drive slower to compensate are just as good as some younger drivers who go faster but can react faster? Or are you in complete disagreement?


You may want to listen to this point folks. People keep saying this and you're ignoring it Mr Dath.

I don't know why you think I'm ignoring it. I haven't even commented on it. And now I have added it to my list as it seems reasonable.

[Marmoot]

Think your well on to it there



Well theres a question right there, how do you apologize for an honest mistake when you can't talk to them? I'm sure many an apology goes misunderstood as a "i don't care" or "up yours".

Open your window and put your hand up with all 5 fingers, not just the middle finger.

[James Deuce]

I'm talking about qualities that make a good driver, not a shit driver. Even with good planning, a very small percentage of problems occur with little warning. It seems to me that a good driver would be able to respond rapidly to these.

Perhaps a better way of putting it is that a "good" driver should operate their machine within their own physical limitations, such as reaction time, eyesight, etc.

This acknowledges that some older drivers who react slower but drive slower to compensate are just as good as some younger drivers who go faster but can react faster? Or are you in complete disagreement?


Fast reaction times are not a benchmark for a good driver. A good driver NEVER gets themselves into the position where they need to use them. An average one will from time to time and most kiwis will make lots of comments about real and perceived near-misses.

You only have to trawl through KB on any given day to see people posting about near-misses and refusing to take any responsibility for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Road use needs to fit a broad range of human capabilities and not just be the preserve of "super beings" capable of reacting under a pre-defined limit. If you're going to start using arbitray physical parameters as the measure of a "good" driver then you'll eliminate most of the population, especially those who think it's OK to drink and drive, even under the current arbitrary alcohol limits.

More to the point as a "good" driver you should be able to spot those around you who may not conform to your own capabilities and therefore need a wide berth and some consideration.

[Latte]

I don't know why you think I'm ignoring it. I haven't even commented on it. And now I have added it to my list as it seems reasonable.

Isn't that what ignoring is ? :D

[p.dath]

Isn't that what ignoring is ? :D

It's hard to listen when your talking.

[Usarka]

It's hard to listen when your talking.

?????

Is that the same as saying "if I want your opinion I'll give it to you"?

[Banditbandit]

Simple ..

Ability to control the vehicle at ALL times

Awareness of other road users

Courtesy

[Swoop]

Ignoring the fact that most NZ drivers are shit, it is entirely possible statistically for 86% to be above average.
"Above average" driving skills... for where? Pakistan? Guatemala? Tanzania?

I think the first nine words of your post are the most important.:yes:

[Banditbandit]

Focused on the task at hand.
Decisive.



Ignoring the fact that most NZ drivers are shit, it is entirely possible statistically for 86% to be above average.

Yeah .. that's statistically possible .. but highly unlikely as human populations tend to exhibit Bell Curve results close to the standard model - and therefore the average is usually pretty close to the middle - roughly 50% above and 50% below.

Given the behaviours I see on the road I think it is far more likely that 86% of New ZEaland drivers are below average ...

[Katman]

You're missing one point: a good driver should never hesitate to say sorry after making a mistake, or objectively evaluate the possibility of having made a mistake when pointed out to by someone to learn and progress from it (rather than simply act defensively in such occassion).

That's almost signature material. :eek:

The standard excuse given on Kiwibiker for motorcycle accidents is "There was nothing I could do".

When asked to think very carefully whether there was in fact something they could have done, the standard response is "Fuck you wanker, you weren't there".

[Bald Eagle]

...as human populations tend to exhibit Bell Curve results close to the standard model - and therefore the average is usually pretty close to the middle - roughly 50% above and 50% below.


Tell that to the socially engineered 50% failure rate for our school exams. The results are normalised to fit the bell curve not the other way around.

Should be recorded as one of the great lies of all time.

[Scuba_Steve]

Given the behaviours I see on the road I think it is far more likely that 86% of New ZEaland drivers are below average ...

I would actually put that figure in the low 90's sad to say (but then I did live in Palmerston North for a while, home to the worst drivers in NZ)

[bogan]

One thing that make a good driver is pre-planning, and pre-indication, hard to do while on cellphone or squawking away to passengers, but with gps it's even possible to do in unfamiliar towns if you try! Rather than just cutting up lanes and starting to indicate while turning. Slow initiation of lane changes and turns, so if there does happen to be a vehicle in the way that you have missed, they have ample time to see the indicator, and decent time to get out of the way once they realise you haven't seen them.

plus things that have been said before, situational awareness, courtesy, lack of ego....