Too big, too powerful, too much affect on "our" unsuspecting lives?

[oldrider]

An extract from one of the sites I like to read and thought you (Well, some of you) might like to have a look too!

http://blog.imva.info/medicine/pharmaceutical-terrorism

New Zealanders are naively conditioned to accept everything medical and pharmaceutical as gospel and to believed without question! :doctor:

There is always another point of view and when it costs you nothing, why not consider it and compare it to what you think you know!

It may even save you some unnecessary suffering! :shit:

It would appear that there are definitely some sneaky people in the world out there! :facepalm:

[ellipsis]

.....so many unheard or unheeded voices have been telling the world this stuff for so long...nobody wants to listen it seems....drug companies spread fear then thrive from it...the fearful populace are so easily swayed...and the truth-tellers disregarded and maligned....the bullshitters dont even have to try hard here...as soon as the bent media start quoting and reinforcing the lies its all too late...

....drugs, food additives etc that were banned in France, Russia and even the USA as far back as the early 80's were still being tested on the British, Kiwis, Aussies and third worldies with impunity all the way through ....

...education of the masses in the truths is nigh impossible when the money swished around to politicians, governments and those in the pharmaceutical and medical game by the drug companies ,to lie and cheat is so prevalent....

[terbang]

Recently when the 'Ambos' wheeled me into ED choking and spluttering on my own blood with all sorts of breaks and twists, I was very pleased that it was a doctor and not a naturopath who drilled the appropriate life saving holes into my side. Sister Morphine did her thing, but also trapped me with her addictive ways... A necessary evil at that time, but never the less, an evil.

However, during my recovery and subsequent rehabilitation I have used a combination of Physio therapy, Choropractic and naturopathy to good effect. By far the Naturopath and the Chiropractic have sped up and aided my rapid and (now) drug free recovery. I'll be medically cleared to fly commercially eight weeks after the accident. My short time to recovery has certainly impressed my aviation doctor who openly admits that he initially didn't expect me to fly again.

Horses for courses I guess.

[NighthawkNZ]

It may even save you some unnecessary suffering! :shit:

It would appear that there are definitely some sneaky people in the world out there! :facepalm:

Been watching your posts with interest... and you are nearly there... slowly putting the pieces together, soon you will go click and you will see the big picture...

Then you will go oh fuck shit... maybe I didn't want to see the big picture... :facepalm:

[HenryDorsetCase]

Been watching your posts with interest... and you are nearly there... slowly putting the pieces together, soon you will go click and you will see the big picture...

Then you will go oh fuck shit... maybe I didn't want to see the big picture... :facepalm:

Meh, some of us took the blue pill.

[SMOKEU]

Recently when the 'Ambos' wheeled me into ED choking and spluttering on my own blood with all sorts of breaks and twists, I was very pleased that it was a doctor and not a naturopath who drilled the appropriate life saving holes into my side. Sister Morphine did her thing, but also trapped me with her addictive ways... A necessary evil at that time, but never the less, an evil.

However, during my recovery and subsequent rehabilitation I have used a combination of Physio therapy, Choropractic and naturopathy to good effect. By far the Naturopath and the Chiropractic have sped up and aided my rapid and (now) drug free recovery. I'll be medically cleared to fly commercially eight weeks after the accident. My short time to recovery has certainly impressed my aviation doctor who openly admits that he initially didn't expect me to fly again.

Horses for courses I guess.

What did you do to phuck yourself up?

[NighthawkNZ]

Meh, some of us took the blue pill.

I was colour blind... and welll thought it was blue... but oh no it was the red one... :blink::blink::violin:

:killingme

[terbang]

What did you do to phuck yourself up?

A chance meeting with an asian lady in a 4WD while I was out riding...

[Ocean1]

An extract from one of the sites I like to read and thought you (Well, some of you) might like to have a look too!

More than a hint of hysteria there John. But no doubt a nugget of truth in it.


It would appear that there are definitely some sneaky people in the world out there! :facepalm:

There’s a bunch of idiots too. Of all the many plagues to have killed billions of humans over the centuries just two are now extinct at our hands, due to inoculation. If we were better organised and somewhat less prone to superstitious bullshit and tyrannical elements that number would be in the hundreds. The number of deaths and misery that could have been successfully eliminated by now beggars belief.

[Grasshopperus]

Everyone knows that vaccines are actually mind-control serums.

But seriously, it's no surprise, for example; look at the way that vitamin supplements are marketed to people. "You're sooooo busy you productivity whirlwind you. Although you live in NZ where most people get 2 or more meals per day you need some vitamin X and we'll sell you some at a huge markup"

[Usarka]

A new drug needs to show a number of positive trials to be approved (i think it's 3 seperate trials but could be wrong).

However there is no limit to the number of total trials (eg only 3 out of 100 trials could be positive but they only need to submit the 3 good ones).

Modern medicine is really good at acute issues like accidents etc, but shit for anything that's chronic or ongoing.

[Winston001]

Humanity owes much to Edward Jenner who discovered the smallpox vaccine 200 years ago. He is credited with saving more human lives than any other person.

Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin in 1928 and is the father of anti-biotics so he too must share Jenner's massive contribution to mankind.

We have eradicated smallpox from the planet. We almost eradicated poliomyelitis by 1998 through a UN and Rotary program.

Viruses are tough. There are no medicines which obliterate them. None. The only defence is human antibodies and vaccination has been proven for 200 years as the method of creating the antibodies.

The fear of vaccines reminds me of superstition and witchcraft. There is nothing wrong with questioning treatments and learning about how vaccines work but often the criticism dissolves into suspicion and conspiracy theories. So much for an educated populace. :facepalm:

[oldrider]

Humanity owes much to Edward Jenner who discovered the smallpox vaccine 200 years ago. He is credited with saving more human lives than any other person.

Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin in 1928 and is the father of anti-biotics so he too must share Jenner's massive contribution to mankind.

We have eradicated smallpox from the planet. We almost eradicated poliomyelitis by 1998 through a UN and Rotary program.

Viruses are tough. There are no medicines which obliterate them. None. The only defence is human antibodies and vaccination has been proven for 200 years as the method of creating the antibodies.

The fear of vaccines reminds me of superstition and witchcraft. There is nothing wrong with questioning treatments and learning about how vaccines work but often the criticism dissolves into suspicion and conspiracy theories. So much for an educated populace. :facepalm:

Interesting observations Winston001.

Personally I suffered a bad reaction to the polio vaccine when a school pupil.

I suffered a bad reaction to the smallpox vaccine I received before I went to sea in the Merchant Navy.

I have suffered extremely bad reactions to fungal overgrowth caused by antibiotics.

I value the guy who pioneered probiotics far more than your antibiotic bloke!

But the medical people still insist that everyone should be treated with their vaccines even though everybody does not react the same to them!

Most of the complaints against vaccines is the fact that they contain so much "mercury" in them!

Then again as you say: So much for an educated populace! :facepalm:

I found this site was while I was looking for alternatives to the medicine the status quo medics insist is right for me!

I have no axe to grind with the medical except that I do not believe that they must not be questioned and that "they" are infallible!

My own medical doctor is fantastic but now she is going to Australia to practice! (funny description that)

Oh well, to each his own, I like to know what it is someone is trying to shove into me and make my own decisions!

[Kickaha]

Meh, some of us took the blue pill.

Do you have any spare?, I've just about run out

[Milts]

I've recently started work as a reference librarian at the Wellington Medical Library. I've worked there part time in other roles for five years doing a range of document supply, desk cover etc. I've also followed the vaccine 'debate' out of interest for some time.

Based on what I have read (if you disagree, try searching the PubMed database), there is no debate among the trained medical professionals as to whether vaccines are 'good' or not. The only debate is around the availability, dosage, etc. Yes, vaccines do have adverse affects on a small percentage of the population. Would you rather have 0.001% of the population maimed, braindead, perhaps sick for a week, OR would you rather have 0.5% of the population seriously ill, maimed or dead by age 30 from the disease which the vaccine protects against?

The flu vaccination is estimated to save billions in social cost by reducing the number of sick (thus less early deaths, less hospitalisations, less time off work).

According to several articles, unfortunately 'misinformation' is now much easier to spread via the internet; it is also easier to have it appear legitimate. Even academic medical journals recognise, to some extent, the benefits of some 'traditional' medicine (homeopathy excluded for obvious reasons). It is a real worry within the medical profession that intelligent, thinking people honestly believe some of the extreme misinformation out there. It makes their jobs a fuckload harder, believe me.

Winston was dead on when he said viruses are tough buggers to kill. By some definitions, they are not even alive, and they evolve incredibly fast, making them a bitch to create drugs for. Vaccinations are by far the best method we have for coping with them.

Pop quiz; how many people can name a close friend or family member who was hospitalised or died as a result of (one of the dozens of) mandatory or voluntary vaccinations? Now; 150 years ago, or even 80 years ago, how many people could name a family member or close friend who died as a result of Polio, measles, mumps, influenza, yellow fever, or smallpox?


EDIT: as to questioning medical experts, don't even think about it. Instead look at the hundreds of thousands of OTHER medical experts who, after a decade of medical or scientific training CONSTNATLY question each other on EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of EVERY SINGLE MAJOR PIECE OF RESEARCH ever written.


Also, OP should use the word 'effect', not 'affect'.

[Fatt Max]

Drug companies - bastard corporates

[ellipsis]

.....your tone Milts sounds like that of a Jesuit priest pushing the written word of the LORD JESUS CHRIST onto the Mayans or the Toltecs quite some time back....some of the vaccines over the years have played their part well....your faith in the pharmaceutical companies is beyond doubt, obviously....and are you trying to claim that all vaccines are safe and that it is a figment of a lot of imaginations that their children are brain damaged or dead because of not just a bad batch of vaccine but because of a bad vaccine....in your research as a librarian , have you come across any negative comment at all of vaccines or of how many vaccines have been pulled because they were unleashed a little prematurely.....the son of a good mate of mine in Wales ended up with severe brain damage after a vaccine shot...turned out that a few other cases of similar brain damage occurred in Britain from same vaccine...a lot more than they could say ,'it was the one in however many hundreds of thousands' case....Im not saying that they are all bad.....but I wouldnt be rolling up my sleeve for a jab of some shit that someone says is 'gonna do the trick'....just like I wouldnt drop my pants in a gay bar and tell the clientele I trusted them implicitly....trust is great , blind trust is for fools...

[Ocean1]

but I wouldnt be rolling up my sleeve for a jab

Hence: Humans:2, Viruses 498756329948739940; and counting...


Cheers very much.

[puddytat]

Then you will go oh fuck shit... maybe I didn't want to see the big picture... :facepalm:

Thats unfortuanately how 90% of people think WITHOUT ever reading a word or view on anything:yes:
Ive coined a syndrome for it...I I B syndrome.(TM)
To the layman it stands for the"Ignorance is bliss" condition so prevalent in our fake bullshit & shallow society that is more interested in bling , facebook or Oprah:facepalm:
Unlike most of ME ME ME society, I like to be informed about "Them"....it makes me angry & determined to challenge & if necessary, fight .

As an afterthought why is it in our country that you can sell people herbal highs or pre-rolled joints of some substance without any testing whatsoever & that the "Authorities will only investigate them if more than 2 or 3 complaints are recieved?:scratch:

[warewolf]

Risk of problems from a vaccine: 1:100,000+
Risk of a nasty early death from virus: 1:1000-
You tell me which are the better odds.

One of the big problems with vaccination coverage these days is that the current breeding generation DIDN'T see the horrible early deaths their parents did, so they have no personal experience or incentive to vaccinate.

The interesting thing is that it is actually best for you to be unvaccinated, but surrounded by people who have been vaccinated - it moves the risk on to them and reduces yours. So the vaccine haters would actually be better off actively encouraging other people to vaccinate/their kids, but not vaccinating themselves/their kids. However, having the whole herd unprotected is just inviting disaster.

[Woodman]

More than a hint of hysteria there John. But no doubt a nugget of truth in it.



There’s a bunch of idiots too. Of all the many plagues to have killed billions of humans over the centuries just two are now extinct at our hands, due to inoculation. If we were better organised and somewhat less prone to superstitious bullshit and tyrannical elements that number would be in the hundreds. The number of deaths and misery that could have been successfully eliminated by now beggars belief.

Bloody hell the place is in the shit now with too much population. Maybe we would be better off stopping medical research completely to try and balance things out a bit.

[puddytat]

I reckon we need to get AgResearch to come up with a new virus that we can add to milk powder...
But for export markets only

[oldrider]

Also, OP should use the word 'effect', not 'affect'.

:argh: Gets me every time, thought maybe no one would notice if I got it wrong! :facepalm: Bloody academics! :lol:

[Winston001]

Interesting observations Winston001.

Personally I suffered a bad reaction to the polio vaccine when a school pupil.

I suffered a bad reaction to the smallpox vaccine I received before I went to sea in the Merchant Navy.

I have suffered extremely bad reactions to fungal overgrowth caused by antibiotics.

I value the guy who pioneered probiotics far more than your antibiotic bloke!

But the medical people still insist that everyone should be treated with their vaccines even though everybody does not react the same to them!

Most of the complaints against vaccines is the fact that they contain so much "mercury" in them!

Then again as you say: So much for an educated populace! :facepalm:

I found this site was while I was looking for alternatives to the medicine the status quo medics insist is right for me!

I have no axe to grind with the medical except that I do not believe that they must not be questioned and that "they" are infallible!

My own medical doctor is fantastic but now she is going to Australia to practice! (funny description that)

Oh well, to each his own, I like to know what it is someone is trying to shove into me and make my own decisions!

Good on you John. I don't doubt your sincerity for a moment. It is true that some people suffer adverse reactions to medicine. It isn't a perfect world and the human body is more complex than we can presently understand. Nothing wrong with making your own decisions. :yes:

[Winston001]

Hence: Humans:2, Viruses 498756329948739940; and counting...


Cheers very much.

Yeup!

We had a German exchange student visit a while ago. Her parents were sort of hippies and didn't believe in vaccination......until they had a child who caught rubella (measles). That child (who is an adult today) has the mental functioning of an average pet and has to live in a special high needs hospital. Her sister (our guest) referred to her as being like an affectionate puppy. Bloody tragic - and all for want of a pinprick injection.

[James Deuce]

Down Syndrome. Genetic disorder. 100% of Down Syndrome children vaccinated with MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) experience increased learning difficulties, damaged hearing and speech centres in the brain and increased chance of leukaemia. More than 75% will experience infantile spasms bad enough to potentially cause further brain damage to an already compromised organ. Down syndrome children are nearly all neutropenic, that is suffering from a lack of the white blood cells (neutrophils) that fight infection and are susceptible to leukaemia without help from the stress of vaccination.

Modern-era institutionalised and vaccinated Down Syndrome children are thought to be lower functioning than the historic 8% of their brethren who survived infancy pre-vaccination era. Thankfully automatic institutionalisation of Down Syndrome children has been banished to the past where it belongs. However, getting the medical profession to skip MMR is a fight that will almost certainly land you in court if you don't have a knowledgeable and sympathetic paediatrician who keeps up with the Royal College of Surgeons research on the subject. "But you vaccinated your other kids!", was the frustrated cry. "Yes, but the actual disease process has less impact on this chap than the vaccine does, here's the research, have a read."

"You people read something on the Internet and think you're experts."

"No this is a peer reviewed series of studies over 20 years by a bunch of people publishing in a journal you subscribe to."

"Whatever, thicky parent, you're an idiot, we'll see what the paediatrician says."

"Oh yes, about that, here's a letter from the paediatrician supporting our decision."

"We'll refer it to our legal people and see what they have to say," says the Doc.

Down Syndrome, and the sufferers of the myriad of other chromosomal disorders aren't strictly "human" in the sense that their DNA has been messed with and no one in the medical or legal profession gives a shit that you cannot guarantee how a human with its DNA intact will respond to a vaccination let alone how a near-human will respond. It is CERTAIN that the outcome for someone with Down Syndrome or William Syndrome for instance has not been tested AT ALL for someone suffering from a chromosomal trisomy disorder.

Some of you people toss statistics around like the people affected don't matter. You might see 1 in 100,000 affected as a quoted stat, but what you don't see are the communities where 1 in 5 die from vaccinations that some of us take for granted, the kids who were perfect before they had their first vaccinations. Born after 1960? That "special" kid at school you used to pick on? The one not quite bad enough to ride the IHC bus, but markedly different from his peers? Most likely a vaccination reaction.

Menningichocal B virus vaccine. It didn't work. It never worked. It wrecked lives and was documented as doing so and we still pushed ahead with it. 1 year later the vaccine was ineffective against Mens B. The current HPV vaccination programme for girls? It wears off in 3-4 years, before most girls are sexually active. Chicken Pox vaccine doesn't work. There's a bunch of medical technologies out there that are utter farce and not tested effectively and not re-engineered often enough to keep up with the normal subtle changes all viruses undergo and yet we're just supposed to submit our kids as guinea pigs. I'm not suggesting for a moment that all vaccination is a bad thing, just that there needs to be less dogma in its application and a great deal more education and certainly some leeway for those who will be guaranteed an adverse reaction to a vaccine.

[oldrider]

Good post Jim, unfortunately people only become aware of the negative side of programs like the vaccination industry because of association with victim's or casualties of the program!

Once your attention has been roused you find that the casualties are far more extensive than you thought and that the villains are being promoted, protected and projected by the popular media sources of the day!

Once you are able to appreciate the whole spectrum of the subject you become aware of the truth and any comment or question of the validity of the practice gets denounced as a mad "conspiracy theory"! :facepalm:

I must admit that negative control groups (such as those in control of the origins of money) really know their stuff and cover their arse in the most simplistic but effective (For Milts: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/affect-versus-effect.aspx) manner! :yes:

[mashman]

Doesn't look like we've moved on too much since Thalidomide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide)

[Daffyd]

One of the things that get me is when you walk into a doctor's surgery and find nearly everything on his desk has been labelled, (read-given), by a major drug company. BP monitors, pens, pads, desk lights, sometimes even computers and/or computer monitors.

www.hsionline.com (Health Science Institute, Baltimore) is a very interesting site.

[James Deuce]

One of the things that get me is when you walk into a doctor's surgery and find nearly everything on his desk has been labelled, (read-given), by a major drug company. BP monitors, pens, pads, desk lights, sometimes even computers and/or computer monitors.

www.hsionline.com (http://www.hsionline.com) (Health Science Institute, Baltimore) is a very interesting site.


Don't forget mistress/toy-boy, car, boat, bach, yearly holidays and weekly lunch meetings.

[Winston001]

Down Syndrome. Genetic disorder. 100% of Down Syndrome children vaccinated with MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) experience increased learning difficulties, damaged hearing and speech centres in the brain and increased chance of leukaemia. More than 75% will experience infantile spasms bad enough to potentially cause further brain damage to an already compromised organ...

Some of you people toss statistics around like the people affected don't matter...



Good post Jim and I have neither the time nor the knowledge to put other points.

Statistically, vaccination is a wonder treatment. It has saved millions of lives. Nevertheless you are right that when it appears to go wrong on an individual level, that can mean a lifetime of tragedy for the child and the family involved. I don't think anyone wants to minimse that pain.

Its a bit like the seatbelt debate in the 60s. There is always a risk a person will be held into their seat and injured because they couldn't get out. The risk is very low - but exists. So - do we abandon seat belts (or helmets) because 2% might turn out badly? Or choose the greater good and protect 98%?

The vaccination safety odds are far higher and ultimately we have to look to the public good. I repeat - there is 200 years of evidence in support of viral vaccination.

[oldrider]

The vaccination safety odds are far higher and ultimately we have to look to the public good. I repeat - there is 200 years of evidence in support of viral vaccination.

With respect, those records are presented from one viewpoint only (supporting vaccination) and to get the opposing or counter information, one is required to research it for one's self!

Remember how shocked the nation was at the attitude of our medical experts toward the administration of vitamin C as a last resort to turning off life support of the guy dying from cancer?

They (the medical authorities) did not not want to administer the vitamin C because it may harm the patient (who lived incidently, due to the vitamin C) "their" preference was to turn off the life support systems because they had exhausted their own available treatments!

The pig headed bias displayed publicly (on TV) by the pharmaceutically driven medical professionals in that case was astounding!

Nothing has changed and the alternative treatment would be even more stringently opposed if a similar situation arose again today! :brick:

The patient that the hospital "authorities" had recommended his life supports be turned off is testimony of how wrong they were is now flying his aeroplanes, sailing his boats, enjoying his family and life generally, thanks to the vitamin C administered at his family's insistence!

The hospital authorities (doctors) still believe that "they" were right!

[Milts]

I think Winston raises an excellent point with the seatbelt analogy. If I seem heated or aggressive in my posts it's because I feel strongly about this and feel that there is a clear 'right' in this debate (something not often the case).

It's like if you got into a car I was driving and didn't put on your seatbelt; "oh but my nana was in a car crash and the seatbelt trapped her and she burned to death". Yes a seatbelt can cause you to become trapped and even kill you. However in 99 crashes out of 100 it will save you serious injury or your life. By not using it you are ignoring the objective evidence that you are putting yourself at risk and instead taking a few isolated and statistically insignificant examples as gospel.

This would be less of an issue for me if the argument was "I choose to for myself because I prefer the freedom of not having a seatbelt". However narrow mindedly arguing that it is 'safer' based on a few incidences while ignoring the vast wealth of evidence is genuinely retarded, and people who believe and propagate that seriously bother me. To the point where they can walk home.

To be honest, it's about the same with vaccines - some risk of a negative impact but a strong chance of a positive impact. Except, often you're asked to make the decision about someone else (child) rather than yourself.

I do sympathise with JD's situation and other situations like that - medical professionals can be very arrogant and certain of themselves even when special situations arise. This is something which needs to be addressed, but don't forget that they have to deal with Joe public every day, and having Joe public telling you how to do your job sucks regardless of what you do. Imagine that... after a decade of medical training.

As to the influence of pharmaceutical companies on doctors and 'the need to question them' - 99.999% of the time people are paranoid about this it is for no reason. Don't forget there are thousands of medical journals and a few dozen pharmaceuticals competing with each other. If one of them makes a mistake it is picked up on by competitors and they get shit like you wouldn't believe for it. Of course in the case of the larger companies they have the assets/power to survive, but generally they are very wary. And there are a rude number of truly independent examining bodies (along with the 'independent' pharmaceutical sponsored research).

Also, excellent link there John.

[scissorhands]

My mum had a mate from church who got vaccinated for travel to India.

He never went because it killed him.:bye:

[steve_t]

My mum had a mate from church who got vaccinated for travel to India.

He never went because it killed him.:bye:

Can we get more details on this? Not the person's name obviously, but age, gender, type of vaccination given, previous medical history including known allergies and medication being taken at the time, what the cause of death was attributed to etc. Did you actually know this person? Or was it an anecdote from your mum regarding vaccination?

[puddytat]

Theres a great book written by someone whose name i cant remember.....
anyway its called "World without Cancer" & it goes into great depth about the Cartel type business of multinational pharmaceutical companies from thier inception as petrolieum companies,moving then into fertiliser & medicines etc.If you can find it its well worth the read & will make you you just a tad more cynical.I should say skeptical. It was written back in the early '80s & talks about Vit C & also the qualities of Apricot kernels...

[puddytat]

It was G. Edward Griffin....

[James Deuce]

I do sympathise with JD's situation and other situations like that - medical professionals can be very arrogant and certain of themselves even when special situations arise. This is something which needs to be addressed, but don't forget that they have to deal with Joe public every day, and having Joe public telling you how to do your job sucks regardless of what you do. Imagine that... after a decade of medical training.



Imagine when your wife has 12 years of "medical" training, and 25 years of paediatric experience and she gets told by a doctor who has NEVER done a paediatric run in a hospital and never done any post MD/FRACS study at all that she's not qualified to comment because she's only a nurse.

There is no clear "right" to this argument at all. Vaccination technology is in its infancy. In 200 years time physicians will be cringing at what their historic counterparts insisted was necessary, just as we do at stories of leeches and laudanum. The smallpox vaccination programme is an example of how to eradicate a virus. The MMR and 'flu vaccination programmes are a study in how to cause an organism to mutate and make money for the companies making the vaccine while they chase the mutations.

[scissorhands]

Can we get more details on this? Not the person's name obviously, but age, gender, type of vaccination given, previous medical history including known allergies and medication being taken at the time, what the cause of death was attributed to etc. Did you actually know this person? Or was it an anecdote from your mum regarding vaccination?

Mums gone now too, but I remember he was elderly. I dont believe my mother would lied to me about this, she was very honest about most things.

Gwen could be my new mummy if she wanted


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOW8LNU2hFE

[Ocean1]

only a nurse.

A doctor usually makes the mastake of uttering that particular combination of words just once. Your senior nurse, confronted with such annile arrogance is truely a figure one should be very afraid of.

And yes, innoculating for influenza is a bad idea, that's always been far too broad a front to fight across. Almost as bad a feeding stock animals antibiotics.

[ellipsis]

.....anyone who says that Jenner. Fleming, have not had a profound effect on the planets populace for the good would have to be a twat....Mengele could be defined in that way also, depending on your sway .....to quote numbers is so easy...1 in a 100,000 , 1 in a 1,000,000....as Neil Young penned...'numbers dont add up to nuthin'...same odds as lotto, I suspect....if mothers were given the chances of there child being one of the unlucky ones to scoop the pool, and they were given long enough to think about it and were given the real facts to chew over, then that would be called...making a scientific choice ....without backing away from the facts....of which there are irrefutable facts to bolster both sides of this debate....when the pro lobby group, who would throw their hands in with the ,trust the men in white coats brigade....can cross reference their reading skills with the volumes that these pharmaceutically aligned facts come from...can ascertain the authors of these facts are in fact , who they say they are....can tell us what pharmaceutical companies they work for....can show us the salaries these people are on....can swear that these companies are working for the good of all mankind and not to keep a bunch of multi billion dollar industries in the black ...can prove that these companies have not made some huge fuck ups...that they have not been testing new and unproven vaccines on small broke non white populations...with big backhanders to the pricks in POWER in these places....can actually swear that they are all knowledgable in these areas and not just voicing their well thought out opinions, based on some one elses words...then I might start listening ,if their bibliography pans out....meanwhile back on real world...where the mighty dollar rules and CEOs of multi national conglomerates make the rules and every other bastard who wants a bit of the empire,sucks dick and does what they are told...and clever people ...who can read .....develop some kind of superior knowledge of the facts ...because its all written down in the GOOD side of the ledger..condone without question,all they are told is "right"...then the world is fucked...you have dropped yer pants already...and yes I am a non conformist, I will not bow down to the word of the Lord, or the word of the Company Man or the misguided facts as quoted by Someone who has read them...I have also been part of this debate since it came into my life in the early eighties...I have met and been part of many other peoples unheard stories of the tragic consequences of what can go wrong...and tragically run across more as life goes on....so easy for a bunch of intellectuals...maybe kidless...maybe just pressured by the system, to have a dry opinion on such stuff....they should also think a little before taking the piss out of those who also know that they are 'right', maybe its a little closer to home than they think....a question....who are all these experts in the field of medicine that confer and concur on the safety aspects...we are always quoted the 'experts agree that blah blah ....', ...sounds exactly like the other ' they say this , they say that that bunch of cunts that seem to sway peoples opinions...specially when the media is backhanded to push 'they's' points....east is east, west is west, and........

[James Deuce]

Holy wall of text!

[Kickaha]

Holy wall of text!

I don't think they've heard of paragraphs in Darfield

[ellipsis]

I don't think they've heard of paragraphs in Darfield

parawhat?, is that some kind of new fangled parachute...if man were supposed to jump outta perfectly good planes, they woulda bin born with feathers stickin out ther arse....thats why I live on the Peninsula....to get home I just tear along the dotted line...

[freedom-wedge]

.....so many unheard or unheeded voices have been telling the world this stuff for so long...nobody wants to listen it seems....drug companies spread fear then thrive from it...the fearful populace are so easily swayed...and the truth-tellers disregarded and maligned....the bullshitters dont even have to try hard here...as soon as the bent media start quoting and reinforcing the lies its all too late...

....drugs, food additives etc that were banned in France, Russia and even the USA as far back as the early 80's were still being tested on the British, Kiwis, Aussies and third worldies with impunity all the way through ....

...education of the masses in the truths is nigh impossible when the money swished around to politicians, governments and those in the pharmaceutical and medical game by the drug companies ,to lie and cheat is so prevalent....

All the traits of modern Governance, familar patterns exist for all to see, but many be blind, choosing to focus on issues created to make us look left when we should be looking right, making your own mind up soon might involve penalty ?? ignore the creepage for to long and its always been to late history has shown.

[freedom-wedge]

Drug companies - bastard corporates

At times Max I,m just blown away by your bluntness :yes:

[freedom-wedge]

I watched an informative cd a while back narated by Michael Douglass, about the vaccines issued to american Military, and how many of them are dying early, I cant remember the name of it, if anyone can post it ?? people should go and have a look, its pretty shocking, it clearly shows the dark side at work. There is a need for vacination, but it must be ethical and an informed choice surrley.

[oldrider]

The seat belt analogy is a no brainer, the "whole of the information" is at our finger tips and the argument becomes about the freedom of choice, rather than whether seat belts work!

When it comes to medical mischief it is a different story, it is too easy for us to be kept in the dark and fed on the selective BS of vested interests!

For those of you who are firmly behind the persuasion of the medical status quo, (generally people of an academic background) I suggest that a serious look at the scenes behind the obvious such as IHC, CCS and the like will open your eyes to just how many victims and casualties of medical misadventure there are!

It is not simply the individual victims that are casualties, the scars reach well out into their families and beyond as well.

Apparently the "statistics" actually support the fact that more people are killed or maimed annually by medical accidents/incidents in NZ than are killed or maimed on our roads!

I won't mind being corrected on this if it can be proved incorrect, in fact I would be relieved! :yes:

But is it correct? :shit:

If so, why are there not TV advertising programs warning us to avoid medical facilities in order to bring the toll down? :facepalm:

[James Deuce]

Apparently the "statistics" actually support the fact that more people are killed or maimed annually by medical accidents/incidents in NZ than are killed or maimed on our roads!

I won't mind being corrected on this if it can be proved incorrect, in fact I would be relieved! :yes:

But is it correct? :shit:



You need to be careful there because you have to prove that medical intervention caused the condition. More often the unfortunate results are regarded as the acceptable collateral damage of a variety of programmes and practices.

[steve_t]

Apparently the "statistics" actually support the fact that more people are killed or maimed annually by medical accidents/incidents in NZ than are killed or maimed on our roads!

I won't mind being corrected on this if it can be proved incorrect, in fact I would be relieved! :yes:


Rather than prove your statement to be incorrect (i'm too lazy), you could look for proof that your statement is correct :yes:

[ynot slow]

You must always ASK the doctor imho.

When I was to undergo surgery,the doc said this is what I need to do,my head was taking in shitloads of info,mostly the first sentence"you have bowel cancer".I had 17 days from that diagnosis to surgery,a couple of pre op meets and questions to ask.Mostly I left it in their hands to do what was best.

After being told no chemo I was advised I should have the regime,wasn't compulsery,but reccomended.That was when heaps of questions abound,I went in open eyed,unlike other friends and ill-advised people thinking that chemo means you will be sick 1 week in 4,my oncology doc said it is upto individual and type of chemo.

Was there a natural remedy,I don't know,didn't care.I know my dads partner bought some natural juice for her friend who was terminally ill,and her(dads partner)was ill informed of her friends illness being so bad,and as I tried explaining a lot of these so called natural remedies work on the placebo effect,and for me the brain is the most powerfull tool in universe,if you believe it doesn't hurt when you push the pain pump it works,even when you ask the cut off or time delay lol.

[scissorhands]

You know i just dont get it?

They want a cheap labour force to build their empires, yet they treat the workers like shit. Bad food, bad health care, too much stress, push you pull you see sawing Hegelian themes.....

Why dont they push the healthier options and save tax money used on this state created sickness.

oh wait they profit on the workers suffering!!

Those who are not part of the solution are part of the problem!

[Ocean1]

Apparently the "statistics" actually support the fact that more people are killed or maimed annually by medical accidents/incidents in NZ than are killed or maimed on our roads!

I won't mind being corrected on this if it can be proved incorrect, in fact I would be relieved! :yes:

Wouldn’t surprise me. I’d take it to be synonymous with a society which invests heavily in health. Now let’s see that number expressed over the total number of visits to a health institution eh?

The success rates for various health interventions is fairly readily available, if you don’t trust your doctor try teh interweb. If you don’t like the chances you always the option of declining the procedure.

[James Deuce]

If you don’t like the chances you always the option of declining the procedure.

You actually don't have that option without the support and cooperation of your next of kin. You will be "Sectioned" and forced to undergo treatments you'd personally choose to turn down if your next of kin don't support the argument and even then a specialist can take temporary power of attorney and ignore yours and your family's wishes if there's a chance the Doctor can convince a judge that you'd survive whatever procedure it is - irrespective of subsequent quality of life.

[Ocean1]

You actually don't have that option without the support and cooperation of your next of kin.

I suspect the law would support that in such cases where there were suspicions of fitness to make such decisions. But then, when it comes to defining how to "manage" people who hold all the cards any law's an idiot.

Either way I can assure anyone considering such steps that in at least one instance it's likely that the only place the straightjacket fits is up their arse. Sans lubricant.

[oldrider]

I am really upset at losing my medical doctor to Australia in the New year!

We have had a great doctor/patient relationship!

I take responsibility for my own health plan and she advises me on the value of the pro's and con's of the path I want to follow!

As we move deeper into our latter years we have felt very confident, secure and privileged to have had her professional services available to us! (me and Mrs O/r)

She is not just going because of the money, it's mainly due to the frustrations she experiences with the medical field she works in, much of it being in line with the topics of this thread.

What a bloody waste of quality talent so needed to be retained in NZ!

[ellipsis]

...oldrider...the less clever people remaining standing is a part of their ploy....narrow-minded greed has a way of bypassing morals..I can only imagine living a life contrary to your ethics ,must be hell...

[ynot slow]

I am really upset at losing my medical doctor to Australia in the New year!

We have had a great doctor/patient relationship!

I take responsibility for my own health plan and she advises me on the value of the pro's and con's of the path I want to follow!

As we move deeper into our latter years we have felt very confident, secure and privileged to have had her professional services available to us! (me and Mrs O/r)

She is not just going because of the money, it's mainly due to the frustrations she experiences with the medical field she works in, much of it being in line with the topics of this thread.

What a bloody waste of quality talent so needed to be retained in NZ!

Isn't that the truth,when in hospital in Wellington,I had the great fortune to be in the care of a brilliant nurse (male) from Ireland(with Croation mother lol),he was heading to Sydney a day after I was discharged,reason because he couldn't get enough hours and trying to buy a house required 40 plus hours for the bank,and he was doing 20 ish.Also he was in charge of training nurses,he had an excellent demeanor of saying this is what and how you do it,now you try,the hard thing was trying to explain in english to the asian nurses who were prevelant.

He was annoyed that a dressing wasn't removed from my hand and drip placed in other hand,so much that he said at 8.00am he'd do it when he left that day,sure enough at 3.15ish he arrived,spent another 30 mins doing the business,explaining his reasons to leave,and his lack of confidence in the system,case and point was my lines needing to be changed and hadn't etc,minor things in the context but to him the way he was trained was what he believed in,and his focus was on patient.

[Suntoucher]

I'm sorry, I thought we were in New Zealand, where there isn't huge amounts of money in Doctors prescribing unnecessary drugs. Think I just stepped into a vortex where US blogs and arguments are firing back and forwards because their health care systems encourage it heavily.

[Ocean1]

I'm sorry, I thought we were in New Zealand, where there isn't huge amounts of money in Doctors prescribing unnecessary drugs. Think I just stepped into a vortex where US blogs and arguments are firing back and forwards because their health care systems encourage it heavily.

For all intents and purposes the proliferation of unnescessary drugs is driven by tweaking the market, "selling" the product.

Noticed the advent of pharmacutical advertising in NZ over the last few years? Y'know, since they changed the law to relax the restrictions? Oh sure, it's not aimed at the professionals, but "ask your doctor about..." is going to have some effect eh? The adds wouldn't be around long if they didn't produce the required results.

[Suntoucher]

Aside from viagra on The Rock, no I haven't...

Pretty sure they won't prescribe me any though.

It sucks. Last pill I ate was about nine months ago and was a pair of panadol, although I have nothing against pills. Just don't really ask about them, nor have I been prescribed anything in a while.

Ooh, was prescribed minocyclinehydrochlorate by the Caci clinic for my Acne when I was a young teen so many years ago.

[fuknKIWI]

I don't think they've heard of paragraphs in Darfield


....east is east, west is west, and........

Darfield is neither east nor west,they've heard of fuck all there:facepalm:

[Milts]

Theres a great book written by someone whose name i cant remember.....
anyway its called "World without Cancer" & it goes into great depth about the Cartel type business of multinational pharmaceutical companies from thier inception as petrolieum companies,moving then into fertiliser & medicines etc.If you can find it its well worth the read & will make you you just a tad more cynical.I should say skeptical. It was written back in the early '80s & talks about Vit C & also the qualities of Apricot kernels...

This post caught my attention, because it is about one of the many 'secrets' which 'they' do not want us to know so that 'they' can make more money. It is also much better researched and presented than most of the pseudo-logical bullshit conspiracy theories which are often thrown around on the internet. Furthremore, it's actually a pretty popular book with a decent following.

I did some research on pubmed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed) to see what the research says about the claims made in the book. For those who don't know, PubMed is a collection of medical research and review articles collected and made available to the public, as an American Government initiative. Before the nutters start crying about bias, brainwashing and blatant selection of resources, it is limited to journals which allowed them to make information freely available - i.e., the publishers choose whether to make their normally expensive information freely available, rather than 'the gubbermint' selecting resources. It should be noted these results come from a range of schools and nations (and funding bodies...)

Below are some excerpts from the results about this 'miraculous' drug which can apparently cure cancer but which is supposedly ignored due to being alternative or so they can sell expensive drugs. If you're really interested, check out the full text (link in the top right where available).


BACKGROUND: Many cancer patients treated with conventional therapies also try 'alternative' cancer treatments. Laetrile is one such 'alternative' that is claimed to be effective by many alternative therapists. Laetrile is also sometimes referred to as amygdalin, although the two are not the same.

OBJECTIVE: The aim of this review is to summarize all types of clinical data related to the effectiveness or safety of laetrile interventions as a treatment of any type of cancer.

MATERIALS AND METHODS: All types of clinical studies containing original clinical data of laetrile interventions were included. We searched the Cochrane Central Register of Controlled Trials (CENTRAL), MEDLINE (from 1951), EMBASE (from 1980), Allied and Complementary Medicine (AMED), Scirus, CancerLit, Cumulative Index to Nursing and Allied Health (CINAHL; all from 1982), CAMbase (from 1998), the MetaRegister, the National Research Register, and our own files. For reports on the safety of laetrile, we also searched the Uppsala database. No language restrictions were imposed.

RESULTS: Thirty six reports met our inclusion criteria. No controlled clinical trials were found. Three articles were nonconsecutive case series, 2 were consecutive case series, 6 were best case series, and 25 were case reports. None of these publications proved the effectiveness of laetrile.

CONCLUSION: Therefore, the claim that laetrile has beneficial effects for cancer patients is not supported by sound clinical data.
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17106659)


The evidence for the claims that laetrile (amygdalin) can prevent or control cancers has been reviewed. The beta-glucosidase content of cancer tissues is low compared to that of normal liver and small intestine. Cancer tissues contain the enzyme rhodanese in amounts comparable to that of liver and kidney and hence, cannot be attacked selectively by cyanide release through beta-glucosidase action on amygdalin. Amygdalin does not have the properties of a vitamin. Rats have been reared for several generations on diets devoid of cyanogenic glycosides, without developing neoplasms. Experiments with tumor-bearing rodents have demonstrated no curative properties by amygdalin administration. Amygdalin is not as non-toxic as claimed, particularly when ingested orally, and especially when taken with plant material high in beta-glucosidase. The claims for cure and control of cancers in humans have been refuted by distinguished physicians who specialize in the treatment of cancer patients. The writings of laetrile proponents are filled with erroneous and absurd statements. The propaganda for the doctrine of "freedom of choice in cancer treatment" deludes many individuals with treatable cancer to reject proven methods of treatment. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6986971)


One hundred seventy-eight patients with cancer were treated with amygdalin (Laetrile) plus a "metabolic therapy" program consisting of diet, enzymes, and vitamins. The great majority of these patients were in good general condition before treatment. None was totally disabled or in preterminal condition. One third had not received any previous chemotherapy. The pharmaceutical preparations of amygdalin, the dosage, and the schedule were representative of past and present Laetrile practice. No substantive benefit was observed in terms of cure, improvement or stabilization of cancer, improvement of symptoms related to cancer, or extension of life span. The hazards of amygdalin therapy were evidenced in several patients by symptoms of cyanide toxicity or by blood cyanide levels approaching the lethal range. Patients exposed to this agent should be instructed about the danger of cyanide poisoning, and their blood cyanide levels should be carefully monitored. Amygdalin (Laetrile) is a toxic drug that is not effective as a cancer treatment. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7033783)


Laetrile: the cult of cyanide. Promoting poison for profit. (http://www.ajcn.org/content/32/5/1121.long)


Seems that the 'well researched' "evidence" about a medical conspiracy is all rubbish.
Huh. Sound familiar?

Related:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/conspiracy_theories.png (http://www.xkcd.com/258/)

[Ocean1]

I did some research...

Good. Very good.

Have some greens.

[p.dath]

Seems a bit of an extremist article to me. Where their is an institution, there are always people sceptical of it. And this just reinforces that idea.

[mashman]

Seems a bit of an extremist article to me. Where their is an institution, there are always people sceptical of it. And this just reinforces that idea.

Where there's an institution, there's money to be made. Hardly surprising there are skeptics.

[Winston001]

Hate to burst the conspiracy bubble but the reality is pharmaceutical companies are financial dogs. They lose money - big big money. That's why they are desperate to sell what they still have. New drugs are few and far between.

Don't believe me? Take Pfizer for example. One of the largest drug companies in the world. The inventor of Viagra which is a massive money spinner. The share price for Pfizer in 2000 was $34. The price today - $17. A wonderful investment....:facepalm:

Pfizer recently announced a layoff of 5000 staff. That's not the first time and it looked like it might fall over in 2005.

If you don't believe me, google the fortunes of pharmaceutical companies and you'll find they struggle despite the common view of being rapacious monoliths.

[James Deuce]

If you don't believe me, google the fortunes of pharmaceutical companies and you'll find they struggle despite the common view of being rapacious monoliths.

I've never thought of them as "rapacious". Merely the "victims" of a morally rudderless, ethically bankrupt business model.

[puddytat]

There was a report on Bloomberg yesterday that said there is a movement amongst the "companies" to amalgamate due to falling revenues.....Also they said that a lot of important patents expire shortly & that was having quite the effect on share prices.
Now I dont normally watch that channel as I have a problem with the system in general, but I was channel surfing on the couch while self medicating......:innocent::msn-wink:

[Winston001]

I've never thought of them as "rapacious". Merely the "victims" of a morally rudderless, ethically bankrupt business model.

Yeah?? Developing medication which cures, prevents or reduces the effects of a myriad of medical conditions is "morally bankrupt"? Immune suppression drugs which make organ transplant operations viable? Eradication of polio? Plague still exists - but when did you last hear of an outbreak?

All brought about by tedious, painstaking, scientific research to find the correct molecule. Ultimately a win for humanity.


There was a report on Bloomberg yesterday that said there is a movement amongst the "companies" to amalgamate due to falling revenues.....Also they said that a lot of important patents expire shortly & that was having quite the effect on share prices.
......but I was channel surfing on the couch while self medicating......:innocent::msn-wink:

Spot on. The major pharmaceutical companies are in a quandry because the big discoveries are running out of patent at which point generic copies can be made by rivals. Good for the consumer but not good for future discoveries.

A scientist mate of mine has been working on a cure for arthritis for 25 years. Thats 25 years of salary and running costs for a whole laboratory of scientists - tens of millions of dollars for the pharmacy company. Result? Nada. Nothing. Lots of promise and interesting results but no final molecule.

So they have given up. Other drug companies have been doing the same work for just as long and just as expensively. Eventually someone will break through.

Generally its a 10-15 year lead time to get a drug to market by the time all the FDA approvals are obtained. Then the company has 5 years to make hay and recover the costs of development plus all the dead-end research, before the patent lapses.

There are no more easy molecules to be found. Drugs will be more complex into the future and more expensive.

[James Deuce]

Yeah?? Developing medication which cures, prevents or reduces the effects of a myriad of medical conditions is "morally bankrupt"? Immune suppression drugs which make organ transplant operations viable? Eradication of polio? Plague still exists - but when did you last hear of an outbreak?

All brought about by tedious, painstaking, scientific research to find the correct molecule. Ultimately a win for humanity.





I'm sorry, but I don't agree that the capitalist model produces timely and efficacious treatments unless they are enticed with large amounts of money, usually belonging to taxpayers. Their current round of pharmaceutical company financial crisis is symptomatic of Governments no longer having the money to pay for the research you've assumed the drug companies do.

They research markets. Universities and governments provide the research bods for the treatments.

The drug treatments you mention above have all required significant investment in time and money from people lobbying these companies to increase their research budgets and work on particular treatments.

Transplants are an area where the ethics of the treatment have not been examined. Transplants do not work. They give false hope in 100% of cases and the constant cocktail of medication required to stay alive is incredibly expensive. The only people profiting are the drug companies, but their business model has taken a big hit now that Governments everywhere have had to reduce their support. Transplants have been happening for 50 years now. The biomechanics are understood very well. The human immune system on the other hand not so well. Why not? You make more money selling a cocktail of drugs than you do developing a gene therapy to avoid rejection.

Why did it take so long to develop a decent retro-viral therapy for HIV? There was no money in treating a despised sub-culture. Now that African countries need bulk quantities suddenly in the last 5 years we have drug therapies of such quality that no one need die of HIV.

From an ethical perspective I have my doubts that eradicating disease is a good thing long term. Disease is generally an indicator that an ecology is under stress and out of balance. Mankind simply isn't that important that we can continue hold ourselves above everything else we know of and deal with our own issues at any cost.

[Winston001]

Yes Jim we agree more than you might imagine. I have three friends who are scientists in different countries. The one quality they have in common is integrity. They are fascinated by their work and uninterested in politics or money.

I can say its a mistake to think that all research goes on at universities - it doesn't. They contribute, but they don't have the concentration of expertise that a scientific research facility has.

One thing which struck me, in a kind of appalled way, is that there are patented drugs which have never been manufactured or used. Why?

Imagine you discovered an extraordinary fuel delivery system based on quantum mechanics. You find it will cost $15,000 per vehicle to manufacture even at 1 million units. What are you going to do?

During the search for a solution to a medical problem, sometimes an unexpected result occurs which provides a cure for an unrelated rare disease. But the cost of trials etc means $10,000 per dose if it is ever approved.

What do you do?

Patent it, put it on the shelf - and wait. One day it will be affordable.

It isn't a matter of ethics or morality but simple resources. As you point out, we can't heal everyone on the planet try as we do.

[oldrider]

Is this true, or just another conspiracy spin? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tghUh4ubbg

Why is the hemp plant persecuted so, if it is truly as wondrous as it's supporters would have us believe?

It certainly has my attention!

If all that I have read about it is true, the good things outweigh the bad by miles and it would clearly suggest that we are being hood winked by people who should behave in a better way!

But then, I have no way of really knowing the truth of the matter! :oi-grr:

[Big Dave]

Like the 'Dickhead of the week' threads.
I'm also glad this one isn't about me.

[mashman]

If all that I have read about it is true, the good things outweigh the bad by miles and it would clearly suggest that we are being hood winked by people who should behave in a better way!

But then, I have no way of really knowing the truth of the matter! :oi-grr:

heh, pretty much mirrors my feelings on the matter and pretty much mirrors my feelings on every other matter for that, erm, matter.

[ellipsis]

...truth is only a five letter word and can be viewed from any angle...