Is the age of irresponsibility now completely upon us?

[DarkLord]

I was reading in that other thread about the horrendous child abuse dished out to some poor girl in Auckland, and it got me thinking....

What has become of our society when things like this are becoming more and more commonplace - and more importantly, what caused this and how can we change it?

My honest belief is that we are automatically conditioned in our society to pass the blame for our own actions onto other people and try to defend ourselves no matter what - even when we have no leg to stand on whatsoever. Take this poor abused child for instance. Let me guess - the parents will probably invent some excuse for it such as "she was crying too loud" or "she wouldn't eat her dinner" or something ridiculous like that.

The tragedy of this issue is that there is every chance that similar abuse has happened to the parents themselves when they were children, and due to an increasingly soft-cock society that is becoming far too lenient on such matters, the parents are given excuses and let off lightly when they should be judged harshly and forced to undergo therapy to help them get over the issues that "caused" them to treat someone like this in the first place.

Even if someone has been abused it does not give them any right to abuse others. They may be full of anger and frustration, but they will never ever resolve it through attacking another person - it will only increase the cycle and make things worse for both parties. Some people are seemingly given the freedom to act like complete arseholes towards others "because they have had a hard life" or something like that. We've all had to face shit in our lives - some more than others - but it is up to us what we choose to do with it. We can learn to heal and use it to grow stronger within ourselves or we can use it as a weapon to destroy others, armed with an excuse of "the bad things that have happened to us".

I guess what I am trying to say is that we are all responsible for our actions and the more that individuals are not held accountable for what they do and are given permission to pass the blame onto someone or something else, the worse things are going to get in our society unless there is a radical turn around.

Keen to hear your thoughts.

[candor]

If reading it turns your stomach how is living it.

Fundamentally it's about WINZ and generational welfare enabling miscreants to be miscreants. As a mental heralth nurse I can guesstimate that these sadists are sociopaths ie missing a few vitals like empathy and awareness of others rights.

But in a society with less welfarism where work fitness is a requisite for the kind of income enabling family building, there is a natural barrier to these types breeding and screwing it up. Where non weight carriers do breed they must depend more on charity as in the old days - that charity will not be so forthcoming as whistle blowing against the undeserving of it. Communities set the standards when charged directly.

In my Nanas day losers that'd create a violence riddled home had far less chance of getting past the starter line as engagements were up to 10 years, during which the bloke was suppose to save for a house. The wider family had more time to run character checks by getting to know hopeful breeders. Dubious types stayed single.

One outcome of the days of institutionalisation was that people with bad mental illnesses met and got it on, producing even worse sorts of presentations of mental illness in the offspring. At least if one parnt is mostly sane there is dilution of any dodgy genes.

[Woodman]

Its time to tell the huggy wuggy, not their faulty waulty out of touch do gooders to fuck off, so these abusive brain dead fuckheads can be got rid of. maybe the abusers were abused as kids, well who gives a shit, and is it really an excuse to continue the abuse? possibly for generations because great grandad got beaten up by great great grandad.

The do gooders are making the situation worse with their idealist social academic theories.
Dickheads

[James Deuce]

Socrates, is that you?

[maggot]

Dunno why you're bitching here, it ain't our fault.. :innocent:

[firefighter]

Um, not to sound like a broken record, but 7.62 calibre rounds would really solve a lot of problems......

There is absolutely no gain to society keeping these mongrels alive, yet i'd be surprised if they even stay in prison for 8 years, which will cost 60k each per year at that also, then the real cost to society will be discovered when they are released and re-offend (lets not kid ourselves here), then new cost of the new crimes monetary wise from the police, courts, lawyers, then new prison time, the cost to the victims both emotionally and in monetary terms. It never stops, $2 per round ends it all and stops the future problems they will ultimately be responsible for. Also it's what I would consider an appropriate punishment for the crime committed, they have destroyed that poor little girls life many times over.

It won't ever stop crime altogether at all, but it will stop these two re-offending, no question, and is certainly more of a deterrent than what we have at the moment. Currently the justice system is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a better result, which is madness. In fact it's getting worse, and punishments are getting less, criminals get more rights, and more focus on 'rehabilitation' which quite frankly has been time-tested and does not work and is kept here for the sake of keeping jobs for psychs etc open.
The only form of rehabilitation comes in the form of a bullet, and the sound no-question promise of knowing one is coming your way.

I don't believe anybody has any excuse or reason for fucking with someone elses life, and given the chance to be 'rehabilitated' quite simply is un-justified, your victim does'nt get that chance. You take a life, you lose yours. There's no second chance for the victim, that is always forgotten.

[SMOKEU]

What is really, really phucked about about NZ is the fact that if you commit a minor driving/riding offence, such as sustained loss of traction, you get your vehicle impounded, licence disqualification, big fine and a criminal conviction, and the judges are as keen as a trigger happy terrorist to convict people for such offences.

However, if one were to get drunk and carry out a vicious, unprovoked assault on someone, the judges are reluctant to convict people in comparison to a driving offence, once the free court appointed lawyer makes some bullshit excuse about how mummy was a crack whore and daddy was a patched gang member.

[mashman]

It ain't the fault of the doo gooders, they just come up with the idea. It's the fault of those who do the listening, and then react by implementing laws which really are of no real consequence. Lawyers get rich and the govt look like they're tackling an issue :blink:, where in reality the "violence" still goes on, law change or not!

Unfortunately we heal, educate, police, inter, maintain etc... to a budget :facepalm: and will never be able to address the "issues" of society in a manner that may be effective, solely on the basis that it costs too much :facepalm:

[Edbear]

It ain't the fault of the doo gooders, they just come up with the idea. It's the fault of those who do the listening, and then react by implementing laws which really are of no real consequence. Lawyers get rich and the govt look like they're tackling an issue :blink:, where in reality the "violence" still goes on, law change or not!

Unfortunately we heal, educate, police, inter, maintain etc... to a budget :facepalm: and will never be able to address the "issues" of society in a manner that may be effective, solely on the basis that it costs too much :facepalm:

I've had a life-long interest in human psychology and have studied various subjects to do with society and human interaction over the years.

Money per se has never really been the problem, but rather the eroding of traditional values. My wife works in Early Childhood Education and is a qualified teacher. The parents she sees on a daily basis have absolutely no clues when it comes to caring for their children. Starting back in the 60's the eroding of morals, respect for authority was accellerated by the likes of our Dear Dr. Spock. Over time, the rebellious teens became the inept parents and they now have children who are completely without morals, respect and guidance.

I watched a few minutes of a popular comedy show tonight called "Modern Parents" and this typified the attitude of what seems to be the majority of parents. They are scared stiff of upsetting their chldren by setting standards and enforcing rules. While not liking what their 15-year old daughter was doing, they couldn't stop her or set boundaries for fear she would be angry with them.

Today, the kids rule the house and the parents go along with them lest they get upset. There are no consequences and TV shows constantly portray the children as being smarter, more intelligent and wiser than their parents and the adults they interact with including teachers. If parents dare to set rules and moral standards they are viewed as "controlling, old-fashioned, repressive" The difference between right and wrong is very simple and has nothing to do with religion, race, culture, language, law or anything else. "Right" works, "wrong" doesn't work. If after 40 years we have reached this point in civilisation, (!), the answer is quite clear.

[puddytat]

As a self confessed "Do gooder" Im all for peoples rights. But in saying that Im all for people losing all thier rights when it comes to capital offences, pedophilia etc. Rights are something your born with but its also is up to the individual to maintain or deserve thier rights....You fuck it up, you get fucked up.

[JATZ]

Its time to tell the huggy wuggy, not their faulty waulty out of touch do gooders to fuck off, so these abusive brain dead fuckheads can be got rid of. maybe the abusers were abused as kids, well who gives a shit, and is it really an excuse to continue the abuse? possibly for generations because great grandad got beaten up by great great grandad.

The do gooders are making the situation worse with their idealist social academic theories.
Dickheads


Don't hold back there Woodman :blink:

AFAIK there is issues with cypfs in this case, but I still think they, the parents. still need to be executed

[scissorhands]

I think a lack of spirituality is a major problem.

Most spiritual people I know, whether I agree with their concept and god name whatever, are some of the nicest people I know.

Sure no ones perfect, but everyone I have known from Christians to Pagans to Hari Krishna's, have a belief in a weighted heart or light filled existence, which dictates how they respond in the world.

Without a spiritual life, we may be no better than beasts.

Even though I am a fan of Dick Dawkins, I have had too many spiritual interventions and experiences, to deny the invisible forces that shape out lives.

Globally, religion is being attacked by world government as they want the donation bowl money. China is a prime example, where those who practise spirituality are condemned, tortured and murdered. In India government officials are touring the villages trying to educate the masses against spirituality.

But then you have Africa which is very spiritual, superstitious with much black magic, and look how corrupt Africa is. Polynesia's history has been very spiritual but constantly at war and eating each other....I just dont know.

[SMOKEU]

I think a lack of spirituality is a major problem.

Most spiritual people I know, whether I agree with their concept and god name whatever, are some of the nicest people I know.

Sure no ones perfect, but everyone I have known from Christians to Pagans to Hari Krishna's, have a belief in a weighted heart or light filled existence, which dictates how they respond in the world.

Without a spiritual life, we may be no better than beasts.

Even though I am a fan of Dick Dawkins, I have had too many spiritual interventions and experiences, to deny the invisible forces that shape out lives.

Globally, religion is being attacked by world government as they want the donation bowl money. China is a prime example, where those who practise spirituality are condemned, tortured and murdered. In India government officials are touring the villages trying to educate the masses against spirituality.

But then you have Africa which is very spiritual, superstitious with much black magic, and look how corrupt Africa is. Polynesia's history has been very spiritual but constantly at war and eating each other....I just dont know.

Too much of this 'spirituality' bullshit is the problem. I choose not to be gullible enough to believe in something which can not be scientifically proven. Have you ever seen your god without being under the influence of some pretty mean drugs? Take a look at Islam - that's a very violent religion which encourages violence against non believers. Have a look at the Jews in Gaza - more violence because some dude a few thousand years ago took too many drugs, went on a mean trip and saw some 'vision'.

[scissorhands]

Too much of this 'spirituality' bullshit is the problem. I choose not to be gullible enough to believe in something which can not be scientifically proven. Have you ever seen your god without being under the influence of some pretty mean drugs? Take a look at Islam - that's a very violent religion which encourages violence against non believers. Have a look at the Jews in Gaza - more violence because some dude a few thousand years ago took too many drugs, went on a mean trip and saw some 'vision'.

Haha yeah.

There are those who appear be be serving god, who arn't, and then there are those who don't appear to be serving god, who are.

Many war mongers use god as a shield for some moral approval, but that doesnt mean god is the weapon or approves

[scumdog]

Too much welfare state hand-out shit that enables people 'breed-and-walk away" (to sound like a well known ad).

Welfare state + zero responsibility = the sorry-arsed un-motivated slack-jawed mouth-breathing improvident crap people we have now that are almost out-breeding the responsible ones

[puddytat]

We shouldnt confuse Spirituality with Religion...
Spiritual...."Of pertaining to or affecting the highest or purest moral or intellectual qualities of man"
Religion...."A belief in a devine or superhuman power"

[98tls]

We shouldnt confuse Spirituality with Religion...
Spiritual...."Of pertaining to or affecting the highest or purest moral or intellectual qualities of man"
Religion...."A belief in a devine or superhuman power"

Jesus H,no offence intended but whats all this gobblde gook got to do with people abusing there children for fuck sake,theres only one group responsible and thats those that sit in high places and decide the fate of these fuckers,spineless/gutlass/political crap the lot of them.Justice system my arse.

[puddytat]

Jesus H,no offence intended but whats all this gobblde gook got to do with people abusing there children for fuck sake,theres only one group responsible and thats those that sit in high places and decide the fate of these fuckers,spineless/gutlass/political crap the lot of them.Justice system my arse.

Not much really, just trying to show that being a spiritual person really doesnt have much to do with child abuse & I would just like to say that I couldnt agree with you more,but maybe it has something to do with a lack of moral fibre in our society to actually force a change with our politicians & lawmakers who often back both sides & often show a lack of moral integrity and fortitude themselves.

[98tls]

Not much really, just trying to show that being a spiritual person really doesnt have much to do with child abuse & I would just like to say that I couldnt agree with you more,but maybe it has something to do with a lack of moral fibre in our society to actually force a change with our politicians & lawmakers who often back both sides & often show a lack of moral integrity and fortitude themselves.

Moral fibre indeed,always found it odd that those in charge of this so called society seem to stand tall when it comes to filling the bucket and making some kind of vege soup in the name of rights for all but slink off when it comes to dealing with the shit that comes out of the pot.Then again once every 3 years we fall for it.

[mashman]

I've had a life-long interest in human psychology and have studied various subjects to do with society and human interaction over the years.

Money per se has never really been the problem, but rather the eroding of traditional values. My wife works in Early Childhood Education and is a qualified teacher. The parents she sees on a daily basis have absolutely no clues when it comes to caring for their children. Starting back in the 60's the eroding of morals, respect for authority was accellerated by the likes of our Dear Dr. Spock. Over time, the rebellious teens became the inept parents and they now have children who are completely without morals, respect and guidance.

I watched a few minutes of a popular comedy show tonight called "Modern Parents" and this typified the attitude of what seems to be the majority of parents. They are scared stiff of upsetting their chldren by setting standards and enforcing rules. While not liking what their 15-year old daughter was doing, they couldn't stop her or set boundaries for fear she would be angry with them.

Today, the kids rule the house and the parents go along with them lest they get upset. There are no consequences and TV shows constantly portray the children as being smarter, more intelligent and wiser than their parents and the adults they interact with including teachers. If parents dare to set rules and moral standards they are viewed as "controlling, old-fashioned, repressive" The difference between right and wrong is very simple and has nothing to do with religion, race, culture, language, law or anything else. "Right" works, "wrong" doesn't work. If after 40 years we have reached this point in civilisation, (!), the answer is quite clear.

Money is the only thing that stops us from being able to do anything about it... well, lack of money :yes:. I'm not saying it's to blame for all of societies "ills", it's not solely to blame for greed, it's not solely to blame for murder etc... but it certainly doesn't help when it motivates people in the ways it does... sometimes on a global scale and it affects every life on this planet... if you need money to run your society you're always going to be stuck with the problem of providing financial coverage for the "ill" and expensive side society.

If there's no money, having children wouldn't be a career choice any more :shit:. Financially motivated crime wouldn't exist any more :shit: and there'd be no more expense for the lazy, only lack of effort, big deal, a status quo. How would humans with "criminal" tendancies act to that? Or "normal" people? Would they still be duplicitous? Would they melt down because they can't steal/lie etc... for a living?... And it's not only the bludgers that bleed the state and produce shite kids.

Kids are another thread entirely eh. :)

"the answer is quite clear" - yeah, those who hold the money bend society to their will and after 400 years it still goes on :facepalm:

[JATZ]

Money is the only thing that stops us from being able to do anything about it... well, lack of money :yes:

A length of rope doesn't cost fuck all and there is plenty of trees with high branches around the place.
Hell I'd even tie the knot

[98tls]

Money is the only thing that stops us from being able to do anything about it... well, lack of money :yes:. I'm not saying it's to blame for all of societies "ills", it's not solely to blame for greed, it's not solely to blame for murder etc... but it certainly doesn't help when it motivates people in the ways it does... sometimes on a global scale and it affects every life on this planet... if you need money to run your society you're always going to be stuck with the problem of providing financial coverage for the "ill" and expensive side society.

If there's no money, having children wouldn't be a career choice any more :shit:. Financially motivated crime wouldn't exist any more :shit: and there'd be no more expense for the lazy, only lack of effort, big deal, a status quo. How would humans with "criminal" tendancies act to that? Or "normal" people? Would they still be duplicitous? Would they melt down because they can't steal/lie etc... for a living?... And it's not only the bludgers that bleed the state and produce shite kids.

Kids are another thread entirely eh. :)

"the answer is quite clear" - yeah, those who hold the money bend society to their will and after 400 years it still goes on :facepalm:
"working for families" should have been titled "another hundy for the pokies" surely,that was yet another nail in an already firmly sealed coffin,even more laughable is not content with fucking up a country the instigator has moved on to inflict an opinion on the rest of the world:woohoo:We used to be famous for great deeds with no 8 wire nowdays more so for a she thing with a deep voice bad teeth and a vision of the world similar to that of someone on speed at woodstock.

[Genestho]

One thing I've learnt - and I've learnt a helluva lot, from the inside at the coalface, through understanding people and situations on all sides, factual policy, through reports right across the spectrum - is there's no one particular reason or cause, it's a combination of many things that started a long time ago and we now reap what we sow.

I tried to list all the issues that bring us here, it's just too much to quantify.

We're definately at a crossroads but I've thought that for quite awhile.

Times have changed, I'm starting to feel it's too late and too big to peel back what's begun.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing.

We're in an even harder situation with recession - and it hasn't even bitten yet.

The signs are there that things will get harder, people with nouse will have to rise above it and find out the hard way how to be self sufficient (it doesn't seem self taught anymore) but society will continue to payout for and reap from those that don't.

How we continue to sustain this in the current climate, and I'm just touching the surface - I have no idea at all.

If you believe in it - To try to rehabilitate the screwups requires 600% funding, staff, procedural.

If you believe in it - to punish or deter - think current police staffing, tools, technology, courts sytems and jail.

To educate people in anything...

To assist people through Govt means - or to do anything to put things right - requires money and lots of it.

No laws, money, penalties or rehab subsitutes - that families and communities need to give a damn about helping their own again and that is the only thing that can be constructive and it comes for free.

[DarkLord]

I tend to agree with the points on spirituality. I am not interested in getting into a religious debate of any sort but what I will say is that religion - such as Christianity - does preach the concept of personal responsibility, and making one responsible for one's own actions - something we seem to be sorely lacking in society today. That message of facing up to your own responsibilities in the world - rather than endlessly bitching about "your rights" - would transform so much of our society if it took hold.

However, one simple solution is never going to fit everybody - regardless of the situation you will get people who will try and abuse and take advantage of the system. NZ society does unfortunately seem to be catered towards reaching out a helping hand towards those who have committed crimes etc, with less emphasis on punishment. There are perhaps some who would find this approach enormously beneficial for them as people - however there are probably far more who would - and will - abuse it.

I agree with Genestho - things will only continue to get worse and those who know how to rise above difficulties and ultimately take good out of them are going to be the ones who thrive. The useless, selfish prats who pass all of the blame for their own problems and actions onto everyone else may continue to be catered for by a seemingly soft cock society - however they will be continually more and more miserable as a result. No one will ever find peace deferring their own personal responsibilities onto others.

I know because I used to be in that frame of mind myself - trying to blame everyone else for everything - and it just turned me into a miserable, bitter bastard. Fortunately I am on a journey of learning to take responsibility for myself, even in a society that seemingly does not encourage it. My theory has always been if you want to change things around you for the better, don't go pointing fingers at others - learn to change yourself, and you will see better things begin to happen around you.

[Robert Taylor]

It ain't the fault of the doo gooders, they just come up with the idea. It's the fault of those who do the listening, and then react by implementing laws which really are of no real consequence. Lawyers get rich and the govt look like they're tackling an issue :blink:, where in reality the "violence" still goes on, law change or not!

Unfortunately we heal, educate, police, inter, maintain etc... to a budget :facepalm: and will never be able to address the "issues" of society in a manner that may be effective, solely on the basis that it costs too much :facepalm:

We get what we deserve because there are too many in NZ infirm of purpose or just dont care. A positive step would be to reintroduce compulsory military training and do so with the gloves off.

[Genestho]

I tend to agree with the points on spirituality. I am not interested in getting into a religious debate of any sort but what I will say is that religion - such as Christianity - does preach the concept of personal responsibility, and making one responsible for one's own actions - something we seem to be sorely lacking in society today. That message of facing up to your own responsibilities in the world - rather than endlessly bitching about "your rights" - would transform so much of our society if it took hold.

However, one simple solution is never going to fit everybody - regardless of the situation you will get people who will try and abuse and take advantage of the system. NZ society does unfortunately seem to be catered towards reaching out a helping hand towards those who have committed crimes etc, with less emphasis on punishment. There are perhaps some who would find this approach enormously beneficial for them as people - however there are probably far more who would - and will - abuse it.

I agree with Genestho - things will only continue to get worse and those who know how to rise above difficulties and ultimately take good out of them are going to be the ones who thrive. The useless, selfish prats who pass all of the blame for their own problems and actions onto everyone else may continue to be catered for by a seemingly soft cock society - however they will be continually more and more miserable as a result. No one will ever find peace deferring their own personal responsibilities onto others.

I know because I used to be in that frame of mind myself - trying to blame everyone else for everything - and it just turned me into a miserable, bitter bastard. Fortunately I am on a journey of learning to take responsibility for myself, even in a society that seemingly does not encourage it. My theory has always been if you want to change things around you for the better, don't go pointing fingers at others - learn to change yourself, and you will see better things begin to happen around you.

Nicely said - just with regards to the word punishment, in the 2002 Sentencing Act the word 'punishment' is mentioned just once.. in a subtitle heading (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0009/latest/DLM135580.html?search=sw_096be8ed805c1f79_punishme nt&p=1). So what does that say...


We get what we deserve because there are too many in NZ infirm of purpose or just dont care. A positive step would be to reintroduce compulsory military training and do so with the gloves off.
It's said that when we abolished CMT is where we started to decline.
The obvious and practical benefits for youth and society could be huge if this were re-instated, but again, how are we in the current climate able to sustain this..

I read the reason it was abolished to begin with, was staff and money constraints back then... could stand corrected though..

[BMWST?]

I think a lack of spirituality is a major problem.

Most spiritual people I know, whether I agree with their concept and god name whatever, are some of the nicest people I know.

Sure no ones perfect, but everyone I have known from Christians to Pagans to Hari Krishna's, have a belief in a weighted heart or light filled existence, which dictates how they respond in the world.

Without a spiritual life, we may be no better than beasts.

Even though I am a fan of Dick Dawkins, I have had too many spiritual interventions and experiences, to deny the invisible forces that shape out lives.

Globally, religion is being attacked by world government as they want the donation bowl money. China is a prime example, where those who practise spirituality are condemned, tortured and murdered. In India government officials are touring the villages trying to educate the masses against spirituality.

But then you have Africa which is very spiritual, superstitious with much black magic, and look how corrupt Africa is. Polynesia's history has been very spiritual but constantly at war and eating each other....I just dont know.

i dont agree,some of most barbaric episodes can be traced back to groups of spiritualists aguing about whos spirit is the best.....

[Dadpole]

Too much welfare state hand-out shit that enables people 'breed-and-walk away" (to sound like a well known ad).

Welfare state + zero responsibility = the sorry-arsed un-motivated slack-jawed mouth-breathing improvident crap people we have now that are almost out-breeding the responsible ones

After all the long-winded debates about social theory, religion etc. I think Scumdog gets closest to the target.

[Gremlin]

In general, children are currently seen as either:
- an accidental or predictable outcome from fun things to do and/or
- a meal ticket

Children should be seen as:
- a massive burden/responsibility requiring huge amounts of time/effort, in order to add a valued member of society, whose needs are of primary importance

My mother teaches in low decile schools, and its a sad story where all too often parents either don't care a single iota about their child, with their own lives being much more important, or completely clueless/incapable of raising a child.

FFS, get with the program. I choose to not want children currently (in my late twenties), and any girlfriends need to be on the same page. Children require love, attention, time, effort etc. I know I do not have enough for them, and choose not to sacrifice other things for that.

Decisions have consequences, which you're supposed to own.

[scissorhands]

i dont agree,some of most barbaric episodes can be traced back to groups of spiritualists aguing about whos spirit is the best.....

I dont agree, those barbaric episodes you mention would never be carried out by a real spiritualist, but rather a war monger hiding behind a spiritual cloak, just appearing to be spiritual so as to garner support from good people, but definitely not of a spiritual persuasion. Or a religious leader, who is a sycophantic suckup toward an empire building state or monarchy he serves and pays for his life of luxury

Sort of like George Bush asking his ministers to say a prayer for the Iraqis. 'Oh lord, help us to kick their ass and get the gas!'

[puddytat]

Its quite common worldwide for the well educated people of society who are not religiously afflicted,after looking at the state of the planet & its enviroment, who choose not to have children due to approaching problems of climate ,pollution & population.(And the problem of careers)
Thus its the uneducated,underfed,& illbred who are winning in the breeding stakes.And in this country atleast, they have a welfare system to help them to go forth & prosper & propigate.
If it was up to me....Id help you with youre first 2 Kids, then after that if you want more & want state assistance,then they are removed to a suitable enviroment which could include adoption.
Or you are sterilised at state expense.The choice is thiers.

[MSTRS]

... help you with your first 2 Kids...

Well, aren't you nice!
I wouldn't help with any. That is to say, if you are on any form of welfare, then no breeding. Full stop.
Different if a self-supporting couple with children split up and the daily carer needs DPB.
But get pregnant while on it = no extra $.

[firefighter]

Well, aren't you nice!
I wouldn't help with any. That is to say, if you are on any form of welfare, then no breeding. Full stop.
Different if a self-supporting couple with children split up and the daily carer needs DPB.
But get pregnant while on it = no extra $.

Amen, now how do we rush this through legislation?

[candor]

but maybe it has something to do with a lack of moral fibre in our society to actually force a change with our politicians & lawmakers who often back both sides & often show a lack of moral integrity and fortitude themselves.

It's not that, they have a conflict of interest, lawyers feed off the dysfunction, and set the laws by becoming MPs in order to create more dysfunction so that up and coming ones can feed off it. See post 7 by Smokeu, which notes the disparity betwen the heavy boy racer penalties and those meted out to child torturers and the ilk.

And in the US lawyers cum MPs (high rent psychopaths) have taken this conflict to the extreme; creating solely for their interests the perfect system for creaming it, where there is no likelihood of penalties relating to the crime or to benchmarks for similar offenders doing similar crimes.
It would just be too cumbersome to have a simple comprehensible system... as this would reduce scope for charging legal fees ongoing, and scope for continuous relegislating of a built to be silly system so it can be constantly tweaked.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1412888
It pays to ask who profits most from stupidity cultivated (;

[FROSTY]

I've got a solution for most of New Zealands woe's. Its so simple
OK EVERYONE stand up and repeat after me

I ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS.

Keep saying it often enough so you and those around you accept it as fact.


I know all the "yea buts" but it really does break down to this.
If we all accept personal responsibility eventually the nanny state cotton wool wrapping may actually stop

[DarkLord]

I've got a solution for most of New Zealands woe's. Its so simple
OK EVERYONE stand up and repeat after me

I ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS.

Keep saying it often enough so you and those around you accept it as fact.


I know all the "yea buts" but it really does break down to this.
If we all accept personal responsibility eventuually the nanny state cotton wool wrapping may actually stop

Hear hear!

[puddytat]

Amen, now how do we rush this through legislation?

It'd take a Revolution to rush anything of importance for "us", to get past "them".....they only rush something thru when its for "thier" benefit & usually late at night. For example the law changes brought in after the Canterbury quake:shit:
Although I often disagree with Smokeu, 'twas his post that prompted mine.( the bit about penalty's for Boy racers & kiddee fiddlers)

[scissorhands]

I've got a solution for most of New Zealands woe's. Its so simple
OK EVERYONE stand up and repeat after me

I ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS.

Keep saying it often enough so you and those around you accept it as fact.


I know all the "yea buts" but it really does break down to this.
If we all accept personal responsibility eventually the nanny state cotton wool wrapping may actually stop

But..... my Dad did beat me... I grew up in a bad neighbourhood... I went to a poor school... TV reinforces me toward a less than wholesome existence....

If a dog bites someone, its the owners responsibility, if I bite someone, am I the only one responsible? Fuck, talk about a shit sandwich.

Surely the King is responsible for his subjects? oh wait thats Shonky aint it?

[FROSTY]

But..... my Dad did beat me... I grew up in a bad neighbourhood... I went to a poor school... TV reinforces me toward a less than wholesome existence....

If a dog bites someone, its the owners responsibility, if I bite someone, am I the only one responsible? Fuck, talk about a shit sandwich.

Surely the King is responsible for his subjects? oh wait thats Shonky aint it?
Forget the past--gwan I dare ya--stand up and say it-say it so often you believe it

[mashman]

A length of rope doesn't cost fuck all and there is plenty of trees with high branches around the place.
Hell I'd even tie the knot


To a certain extent i don't have a problem with that, but you've gotta be damn sure of guilt before you put the head in the noose. But there are plenty of candidates that "derserve" that sort of justice.



"working for families" should have been titled "another hundy for the pokies" surely,that was yet another nail in an already firmly sealed coffin,even more laughable is not content with fucking up a country the instigator has moved on to inflict an opinion on the rest of the worldWe used to be famous for great deeds with no 8 wire nowdays more so for a she thing with a deep voice bad teeth and a vision of the world similar to that of someone on speed at woodstock.


Working for families, wonder how often the name for that benefit has been changed? Tis all they do. Tweak the "organisational" structure and give it a new name, et voila, basically the same policy, paying the same people to stay alive. I don't necessarily have a problem with the idea, but the social toll is HUGE and will never get any smaller where you can profit from having kids. Remove money from the system (broken record, heh) and there's no reason for them to have kids. Hell, they may even become a productive member of society... potentially



A positive step would be to reintroduce compulsory military training and do so with the gloves off.


... who knows, it has merit and would give "kids" something to do... but the current "system" isn't working, pretty much everything is on the rise, and i don't just mean financially...



We get what we deserve because there are too many in NZ infirm of purpose or just dont care.


nah, we get what we accept, and we deserve much better... shame govts are as cheap as the everyday person :)

[avgas]

I think a lack of spirituality is a major problem.

Most spiritual people I know, whether I agree with their concept and god name whatever, are some of the nicest people I know.

Sure no ones perfect, but everyone I have known from Christians to Pagans to Hari Krishna's, have a belief in a weighted heart or light filled existence, which dictates how they respond in the world.

Without a spiritual life, we may be no better than beasts.

Touched kiddies on Monday,
Beat my wife Tuesday,
Beat the kids on Wednesday,
Stole on Thursday,
Beat the shit out of someone at the Pub on Friday,
Raped the wife on Sat,
All is forgiven on Sun.

This story is too close to the truth in NZ.

While I get what your trying to say - There are arseholes in every walk of life.
Spirituality only works if Karma is a foundation.

[avgas]

We get what we deserve because there are too many in NZ infirm of purpose or just dont care. A positive step would be to reintroduce compulsory military training and do so with the gloves off.
I am sorry but you are at step 3,

Step 1 would be to have and "ARMED" forces. Then you would have heaps more people getting into it. I tore up my papers when the Scorpions were cut. No doubt many future pilots did the same when the strike wing went down the toilet.
Oh I love the fact that Pearl Harbor was on TV as the entire NZ navy sat on the North Shore a few nights back.