Land of the Long White Wash?

[Lou Girardin]

The report into the loss of the Iron Maiden off the Northland coast has found the Police Comms centre bears no blame for the loss of two lives.
This is despite the Comms operator seeming not to know what day it was let alone the status of the Rescue chopper. Which was sent 2 1/2 hours late.
In their divine wisdom the TAIC decicded that the victims could not have survived more than an hour in the water, so it wouldn't have helped if the Police had actually got the Chopper airborne in a reasonable time.
This is interesting, because I happen to know one of our customers survived 9 hours in the water at the Manukau heads, a very unforgiving piece of water.
The fault appears to have been the dead skippers for being out there in the first place and for using cannabis about 8 hours before.
Now, cannabis is not known to increase risk taking and it seems that fishermen should not pursue their livelihood if there's a slight risk of the weather turning. This would mean our fishing industry should close for most of the year.
The reality seems to be that they bent over backwards to avoid allocating any blame at all to the Police contribution to this tragedy. Perhaps they've had a really hard time lately and anymore criticism would upset George and Robbie.
A classic case of the end justifying all cock-ups.

[scumdog]

Old horse - Lance - Windmill :wait:

[spudchucka]

Lets just get it out here and now......THE POLICE ARE TO BLAME FOR EVERYTHING BAD THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME.

[Jeremy]

Bad day I take it spudchucka.

Blame has to lie on the person who broke the law by consuming illegal drugs, regardless of whether they impaired his ability.

[spudchucka]

Not bad at all actually. I'm back to work this arvo after nearly a month off so I'm feeling gooood.

Lou has not bothered to tell us that the report has also stated that a helicopter could not have effected a rescue in the conditions that prevailed at the time.

The marine SAR situation in NZ has been in a shambles for a long time, there have been numerous other incidents before this one. The police are only a part of the whole picture relating to marine SAR but Lou wants to blame them for any screw up that he possibly can. It doesn't matter to him that the report has cleared the police of any blame in this incident because that result doesn't fit into the particular barrow that he likes to push around.

[sAsLEX]

Lou has not bothered to tell us that the report has also stated that a helicopter could not have effected a rescue in the conditions that prevailed at the time.


Really depends on the pilot to get thereand make the call though, there have been some pretty amazing rescues in some shit weather by people in little more than upside down lawnmowers before.

Cant remember the ship but thinking Waikato and the wasp that resuced a russian fisherman in the southern ocean a while back...

[Ixion]

Lets just get it out here and now......THE POLICE ARE TO BLAME FOR EVERYTHING BAD THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME.

Oh good. I'm glad that's clarified. I was looking for someone to blame for breaking the little switch that controls my spot lights (not me of course!). Now I know it's the police to blame. Where shall I send the bill ?

[vifferman]

Lou wants to blame them [the Police] for any screw up that he possibly can.
Yeah, seems so, but why? :spudwhat:

Wassup, Lou?

[Lou Girardin]

Yes Spud I did, read the post. It was only an opinion of TAIC that a rescue would have failed. A 3 hour late rescue certainly failed.
SOME, but not all, blame should have been apportioned to Police for the total incompetence of their contribution. The Comms operator did not even know if the chopper was on standby or even which one had been requested.
Thank you Mr Dog, the lucidity of your arguement has convinced me of my erroneous thinking. I will repent. :yes:

[Lou Girardin]

Yeah, seems so, but why? :spudwhat:

Wassup, Lou?

Nothing of a personal nature, as I've explained before. Just a general dislike of what has been done to what was a fine force.
If no-one pointed out these issues, nothing would get fixed. George or Robbie would not be squirming in their seats if none of the scandals had been made public.

[spudchucka]

Yes Spud I did, read the post. It was only an opinion of TAIC that a rescue would have failed. A 3 hour late rescue certainly failed.
SOME, but not all, blame should have been apportioned to Police for the total incompetence of their contribution. The Comms operator did not even know if the chopper was on standby or even which one had been requested.
Thank you Mr Dog, the lucidity of your arguement has convinced me of my erroneous thinking. I will repent. :yes:
Who the hell made you an expert on whatever the latest police scandal is anyway? Why should your opinion of marine SAR issues carry more weight than a report submitted by the experts in that field?

The comms operator you heard on the TV this morning was obviously just reading from the job text that appeared on the screen in front of her and very likely had had no actual involvement in the job up until speaking to that person on the phone, thats why she had to read off the screen to know what was going on.

I haven't read the report, just going on whats been in the media but it seems that you are simply blaming the police for the stupidity of people who should be line ups for the next darwin awards.

The report excludes the police from any blame or fault in these deaths, why can't you accept that?

[TonyB]

I don't know the whole story on this one, but looking at it from a logical point of veiw, regardless of wether or not the chopper could have made it in time, doesn't the fact that it took 2 1/2 hours to get the chopper in the air point to a major failing in the system that must be investigated?

[SPORK]

Poor Ol' Iron Maiden. MAy she rock on forever more....

[Waylander]

Here is a question, why are the police doing something that would be he coast guards job? Where were they during all this?

[Quasievil]

The way I read it, the silly pricks should have not turned their boat into the rough seas when they had an option to stay in calmer waters, this linked up with being doped up ,inexperienced ,not knowing the Boat, made them even dumber pricks for venturing into Rough seas.The end result is two dead fisherman who had little respect for the sea.

And perhaps Dope has not been proven to encourage risk taking decisions I am sure it is not exactly known for making sensible life enhancing decisions either

The Police and rescue services cannot be held responsible for dumarses anywhere, on the road, in the air or on the sea.

Also if youre dum enough to do stupid things dont expect other people to come and put their lives at risk by saving yours. Fact is a helicopter could have been above them before the boat sunk and would have only been able to watch them drown.

Why do people always have to blame others for the mistakes of the stupid.

Someone here has been watching to many "all ended well" type movies.

If there were some mistakes made by the services that will be rectified I am sure, but they are not responsible for anyones death in this situation.

[Quasievil]

Fuck that was harsh, I do actually feel sorry for them and their families.

But the Sea, it has zero mercy....... zero

[TonyB]

And perhaps Dope has not been proven to encourage risk taking decisions I am sure it is not exactly known for making sensible life enhancing decisions either
Quote from an old flatmate who had been on weed for years then gave it up.
" It's amazing, I can think so much more clearly, I don't feel so wooly headed. I didn't realise how much the dope was fucking me up"
He went back on it after about a month.

[onearmedbandit]

Fuck that was harsh, I do actually feel sorry for them and their families.

But the Sea, it has zero mercy....... zero

Not according to Homer Jay Simpson, as he said 'the sea forgives all.'

[Paul in NZ]

Oh for goodness sake...

Honestly this is got to be the most stupid thread we have had here forever and it's really got me going so... RANT MODE ON...

Even if the was a bloody helicopter hovering over the damn boat from the second it left port there is zero quarantee that anything would have been achieved! Just because you saw Bruce Willis to something cool once with a heliocopter in a movie or think batman could have saved them does NOT make it possible in the real world! It was a pretty bad storm, perhaps someone made a decision NOT to endanger the lives of the aircrew (private citizens) in the circumstances? Would YOU have flown out to possibly certain death to try it? If you make fuck all preparation and bad choices do you have the right to demand others risk their lives to save you?

Certainly we don't have the right to sit back comfortably in our 9 to 5 world and make uninformed comment on the ability of the people that DO have to ask people to do so!

If you go to sea, head off into the bush, pick up a chainsaw or do any one of a million potentially dangerous activities, make sure you know what the hell you are doing and have a back up plan! One that does NOT involve yelling for help into a cellphone or radio!

Advances in radio and cellphone technology means every dumb cunt that does something potentially fatal can bleat about it across the airwaves where 10 years ago they would just politely disappear and we would just go look for an oil slick. Sadly the same advances have not been made in rescue capability or resources! At least not here!!

Read the article in the paper about the ships captain that rescued those people off the yachts. In the famous storm a few years back the only way he could get the yachts occupants on board was to hove too alongside and lower his crew in a raft so they could reach over and grab the victims. If they had fallen in they would be dead!

Also, go back and look at the pictures of the bloody boat. In every one I've seen it looks half fucked before it went to sea! If you do stupid things you cannot be surprised that bad things happen! The Police are NOT there to rescue you they just do it because they can and no other organisation has had the balls to take it on. The bloody government won't touch the issue with a 10 foot pole.

Get used to it. This is a piss poor tin pot country with systems that are held together by spit, string, well meaning volunteers and a few under resourced organisations like the police. We sold off all the clever shit to Michael Faye and his mates years back and there is no profit in rescuing people so they don't give a shit!

If you want to stop shit like this happening put your best foot forward and offer to reorganise everything. I look forwards to feeling safer!

I feel really sorry for these guys! It musta been a bloody terrible way to go! In trouble and everything going wrong one after annother. Perhaps they had engine trouble, opened a hatch at the wrong time and.... No one to pick up. The sea is a very unforgiving place and I know at times, even close to shore in my kayak I'm bloody terrified because wierd shit happens!

If the report, written by people that have all the FACTS at hand does not blame the police, in this case I can accept that! By the time the Police became involved it was probably too late! If the family of the deceased want to challange the findings then I would support them in that too because all processes need review from time to time.

But to bleat on here... pointless. If you are that concerned about it. DO SOMETHING! This is still a democracy and you are free to do it!

sigh (sound of turbine winding down)

RANT MODE OFF

G'night

[NC]

Lets just get it out here and now......THE POLICE ARE TO BLAME FOR EVERYTHING BAD THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME.
:scratch:....

[NC]

Quote from an old flatmate who had been on weed for years then gave it up.
" It's amazing, I can think so much more clearly, I don't feel so wooly headed. I didn't realise how much the dope was fucking me up"
He went back on it after about a month.
I forgot what I was going to say?

[Skyryder]

Here is a question, why are the police doing something that would be he coast guards job? Where were they during all this?

We don't have one as such. SAR is both Marine and Terrain search and rescue.

Skyryder

[Lou Girardin]

Excellent rant Paul, you can console yourself with it if you ever run off the road and lie bleeding and unsearched for.
Isn't the definition of society looking out for each other?
Or do you prefer Maggie Thatchers take on it, "there is no society".

The skipper of Iron Maiden was under a lot of pressure to;
A/ Go fishing in the first place
B/ Return that day because his wife was due to give birth.

The dope issue was just a red herring (sorry) to deflect attention from other failings.
Remember that they tried to blame Jim Collins for the Erebus crash to absolve Air NZ from responsibility.
What would have happened if they had succeeded, would there have been other crashes, because they weren't held to account for their errors?

[sAsLEX]

Even if the was a bloody helicopter hovering over the damn boat from the second it left port there is zero quarantee that anything would have been achieved! Just because you saw Bruce Willis to something cool once with a heliocopter in a movie or think batman could have saved them does NOT make it possible in the real world! It was a pretty bad storm, perhaps someone made a decision NOT to endanger the lives of the aircrew (private citizens) in the circumstances? Would YOU have flown out to possibly certain death to try it?

Well after hearing the stories of the pilot in a WASPhttp://www.integration.co.nz/aviation/aircraft/Thunder/Thunder14.jpg , which is a shit of a helo, go out and rescue some russian salior


One example: in 1978 WAIKATO was despatched to rescue a critically ill Russian seaman, in a storm tossed trawler southwest of Stewart Island. In marginal flying conditons, WAIKATO launched her Wasp with LT Joe Tunnicliffe RNZN at the controls. He had to search for the trawler, which had given an incorrect position, then winch WAIKOTO's POMA to the deck, and finally winch up both the patient and POMA Filmer. In the mean time a Russian sailor, in an effort to be helpful, tried to clip the winch wire to the trawler's guard rails! Both the pilot and medic were awarded medals for their bravery.


I find it hard to believe that a modern Chopper couldn't of effected a rescue, or be able to tell if the rescue was an option, from its home base while it waited two hours before getting in the air.

[Paul in NZ]

Excellent rant Paul, you can console yourself with it if you ever run off the road and lie bleeding and unsearched for.
Isn't the definition of society looking out for each other?
Or do you prefer Maggie Thatchers take on it, "there is no society".

The skipper of Iron Maiden was under a lot of pressure to;
A/ Go fishing in the first place
B/ Return that day because his wife was due to give birth.

The dope issue was just a red herring (sorry) to deflect attention from other failings.
Remember that they tried to blame Jim Collins for the Erebus crash to absolve Air NZ from responsibility.
What would have happened if they had succeeded, would there have been other crashes, because they weren't held to account for their errors?

Oh fer gods sake Lou... You have the mind of an blind Eel... You slip through the words without touching on the meaning.

Accidents are accidents! We have a well established system to respond to them. If I have an accident in the CBD there is a good chance I will get assistence withing a reasonable time frame. If I have an accident on the Napier Taihape road and I'm alone and no one knows I'm there then I have a much lower expectation of rescue. if I go into rough terrain I let people know where I'm going, when i expect to return, what my expected scedule is and if applicable hire a mountain radio to keep a scheduled check in. I try to make sure that no one else has to risk their life to save my arse!

You talk about looking out for each other? I'd be the first to help anyone in distress Lou and I think i have demonstrated that here on occasion when i can. But does not the skipper / owners / crew have a duty to act responsibly and NOT recklessly endanger the lives of rescue personel by attempting dangerous acts brought on by his own personal circumstances? This is their responsibility to society! Our responsibility is to do what we can to save them should the worst happen. In this case... There was a bad outcome and the farther you go towards the fringes, the more likely you are to get a bad result!

As for the heliocopter issue... Military pilots are trained and paid to do this work. There is risk implied in their profession. Most NZ resue choppers are civilian and funded through bake sales etc etc. They don't always have the best kit and they do what they can above all expectations!

DON'T risk their lives needlessly! You can be fully prepared and still have an accident. No problem! BUT! Act like idiot.... well! Different story..

[jaybee180]

You know what - I've been on this site for a few months now and it's becoming glaringly obvious who "has a chip on their shoulder" about the Police. Lou, I go to work everyday and do my damdest to do a bloody good job - and so do every single one of the cops that I work with. I understand you used to be with the MOT and I'm surprised that you continue to slate something that you should have a little more understanding about.

When/if the day comes that you can state that you have never made a mistake, can honestly say that every call you have ever made has been the right one, are sure that the guy you just let go past you won't kill someone with his driving or that the decision you just made was right/just/correct, then you can start throwing stones at other hard working people who go to work everyday and do an honest days work within the bounds that constrict them!

Look to yourself first mate, and stop this bullshit coz it's getting really tired!

[Pixie]

Not according to Homer Jay Simpson, as he said 'the sea forgives all.'
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Pixie]

Even if the was a bloody helicopter hovering over the damn boat from the second it left port there is zero quarantee that anything would have been achieved! Just because you saw Bruce Willis to something cool once with a heliocopter in a movie or think batman could have saved them does NOT make it possible in the real world! It was a pretty bad storm, perhaps someone made a decision NOT to endanger the lives of the aircrew (private citizens) in the circumstances? Would YOU have flown out to possibly certain death to try it? If you make fuck all preparation and bad choices do you have the right to demand others risk their lives to save you?


And as a chopper was not sent in time,the only people who can say if a rescue was possible or not weren't able to make that decision.