Stagered riding while with other bikes

[Sparky Bills]

So how many people do or even know what it is??

Ive been behind a few bikes lately, and they have been all over the show.
Not keeping one line, changing mid corner, not even looking forward!
Please people..
Pay more attention to riding and less on the sheep in paddocks etc!!
Its as if your all ozzies or somthing :niceone:

[bungbung]

Is that the same as lagered riding?

[Sparky Bills]

Is that the same as lagered riding?


aye??
Learn me on that mate

[placidfemme]

I try to keep the same line when I know a biker is behind me, usually to the left. Trying to get my partner into the habit... but whenever I ride behind her she is dead bang in the centre of the lane...

[White trash]

Is that the same as lagered riding?

Similar, just not quite as wobbly.

[Blackbird]

Couldn't agree more with you. Mangell6, Jantar and I did it on the Southern Cross throughout the ride but it was interesting that it wasn't a common practice.

[Drunken Monkey]

So how many people do or even know what it is??

Ive been behind a few bikes lately, and they have been all over the show.
Not keeping one line, changing mid corner, not even looking forward!
Please people..
Pay more attention to riding and less on the sheep in paddocks etc!!
Its as if your all ozzies or somthing :niceone:

It seems to be the norm on KB rides recently. I think some people forget everything they learned from the rode code as soon as they passed the test. There are plenty on here who insist motorcyclists are more careful and roadsafe than cage drivers, Sparky and I would like to see you prove it.

Learn from Gixxer 4 Ever's experience: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=13146

For those of who who are slow on the uptake, this means the ride leader rides on the right hand half of his lane, the next person on his/her left, the following person on right, then left again, then right again, ad infinitum. Spacing is the 2-second rule between people on your side, effectively putting the person on the opposite half only 1 second out, but if you stick to your half of the lane this shouldn't effect you.
If there is a requirement to ride single file, bunch up or spread out, there are hand signals for this (although the thread keeps dying, is no-one interested in consistent communication?) here:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=879&highlight=hand+signals

[White trash]

Not keeping one line, changing mid corner, not even looking forward!
Please people..
Pay more attention to riding and less on the sheep in paddocks etc!!


Proper staggered formation riding only applys on the straight bits.

Turns and twistys dictate that you fall into single file to negotiate the turn, then form up again as you exit the turn.

[Drunken Monkey]

Proper staggered formation riding only applys on the straight bits.

Turns and twistys dictate that you fall into single file to negotiate the turn, then form up again as you exit the turn.

This is true, however if people are struggling to negotiate safe straight line behaviour, can you trust them in a mid-corner emergency?

[Biff]

I always ride in a staggered formation, but it's a pain in the arse when the person in front doesn't know or fails to abide by this rule. However I always choose the safest line through a corner (especially blind ones), and if this means breaking the formation then so be it. I'm a member of the self preservation society, as should we all be.

[Devil]

Proper staggered formation riding only applys on the straight bits.

Turns and twistys dictate that you fall into single file to negotiate the turn, then form up again as you exit the turn.
This is my belief also. It works.

[TonyB]

I prefer to just maintain a 2 second + gap. I find that some people just get too damn close with the staggered formation, so the guy behind you ends too close to the guy infront of you, which makes you piggy in the middle and likely to get wiped out in an emergency braking situation. I've heard of some pretty bad multiple falls happening when a group with a staggered formation has had to do a full on emergency braking manouvre.

My main gripe with it is that it will only work if no one has to swerve to avoid whatever they are braking heavily for- how often does THAT happen? So you end up with the bike that was say to your left and maybe a second ahead suddenly right infront of you, braking heavily and you've got very little time to react.

Having said that, if I'm on a ride and they ride in a staggered formation, I'll do it happily enough, but if it starts to bunch up I'll work my way to the back.

[MSTRS]

I try to keep the same line when I know a biker is behind me, usually to the left. Trying to get my partner into the habit... but whenever I ride behind her she is dead bang in the centre of the lane...
Best tell her that this is the slippery bit - esp. after a shower of rain. Stay in the wheel track. The right if on your own. One each (staggered) if 2 of you.

[vifferman]

Now someone remind me - is it safer to follow in the wheeltracks of the vehicle ahead, or not? I remember reading about this with respect to junk on the road, and avoiding said junk. I know that if potentially tyre-puncturing objects are flicked up they're more likely to puncture your tyres, but the discussion I read was about larger things on the road. In the wheeltracks, the road's drier in the rain, but objects flicked up by the rear tyres are more likely to hit you. On the other hand, if the vehicle ahead swerves to avoid summat on the road (which you probably won't be able to see), you can swerve too and miss it. Whereas if you're following say the centre of a car in front, and there's an object it passes over that's between its tyre tracks, you won't see it till it appears after its passed it.

Another thing - riding to 'protect' your space on the road. If you ride to the left, the psychology of driving is that this encourages people to pass you, whereas on the right of the lane, this discourages passing and also tends to make people in front of you let you past. Yes, I know the Road COde says to keep left, but (unless it's changed) the wording is "keep as close to the left as practicable", and this means keeping your safety paramount.

[Virago]

.........if I'm on a ride and they ride in a staggered formation, I'll do it happily enough, but if it starts to bunch up I'll work my way to the back.
I reckon the back can often be the worst place to be, due to what I call "the whiplash effect".

In any procession of vehicles, minor changes in speed at the front become major changes down the line. This is due to the compounding effect of everyone's reaction time.

Commonly observed in nose-to-tail heavy traffic, where those further down the line are frustrated by the "surging" speeds, with speeding up and slowing down happening without apparent reason.

Let's say everyone's travelling in convoy at 100kmh. The lead rider spots a potential hazard and throttles off, dropping to 90kmh. Rider Two throttles off, but due to his 1 second reaction time, he has lost his 2 second buffer, and has to reduce speed to 85 kmh to correct his following distance. The same happens to Rider Three, who has to slow to 80kmh, and so on down the line.

In a sudden stop situation, it is usually the guys at the back that get into trouble. If the sudden stop for the guy out front coincides with a catch-up spurt for the guys at the back, you've got a disaster on your hands.

It's the guys on the end of the whip who feel the crack.

[MSTRS]

Now someone remind me - is it safer to follow in the wheeltracks of the vehicle ahead, or not? I remember reading about this with respect to junk on the road, and avoiding said junk. I know that if potentially tyre-puncturing objects are flicked up they're more likely to puncture your tyres, but the discussion I read was about larger things on the road. In the wheeltracks, the road's drier in the rain, but objects flicked up by the rear tyres are more likely to hit you. On the other hand, if the vehicle ahead swerves to avoid summat on the road (which you probably won't be able to see), you can swerve too and miss it. Whereas if you're following say the centre of a car in front, and there's an object it passes over that's between its tyre tracks, you won't see it till it appears after its passed it.

Another thing - riding to 'protect' your space on the road. If you ride to the left, the psychology of driving is that this encourages people to pass you, whereas on the right of the lane, this discourages passing and also tends to make people in front of you let you past. Yes, I know the Road COde says to keep left, but (unless it's changed) the wording is "keep as close to the left as practicable", and this means keeping your safety paramount.
When first learning I was told to stay off the centre as that is where any oil etc dropped by cars would congregate (in order to leap out and mug an unsuspecting biker). Also to ride in the right wheeltrack to discourage crowding if I was overtaken. That advise has served me well a-l-l these years, and one of my maxims is 'If it aint broke, don't fix it'

[TonyB]

In a sudden stop situation, it is usually the guys at the back that get into trouble. If the sudden stop for the guy out front coincides with a catch-up spurt for the guys at the back, you've got a disaster on your hands.

It's the guys on the end of the whip who feel the crack.
True, even if everyones two seconds apart, if they can't see any further than the bike ahead of the (unlikely) then using the 1/2 second reaction time rule you'll only need 4 bikes in a line before rider number 4's 2 seconds has gone. 'Course this doesn't happen bikes as we can see past each other, but I've seen it happen to cages while standing at an intersection- guy in front stopped unexpectedly on a green, car 2 stops fine, car 3 has a bit of trouble, car 4 has tyres squeealing, car 5 has smoke as well and nearly hits car 4...there wasn't a car 6

[Virago]

True, even if everyones two seconds apart, if they can't see any further than the bike ahead of the (unlikely) then using the 1/2 second reaction time rule you'll only need 4 bikes in a line before rider number 4's 2 seconds has gone. 'Course this doesn't happen bikes as we can see past each other, but I've seen it happen to cages while standing at an intersection- guy in front stopped unexpectedly on a green, car 2 stops fine, car 3 has a bit of trouble, car 4 has tyres squeealing, car 5 has smoke as well and nearly hits car 4...there wasn't a car 6
I've seen car 6 too many times - and car 7, car 8.........

[TonyB]

I've seen car 6 too many times - and car 7, car 8.........
I can't understand why more cage drivers don't look through the windows of the car in front to watch the traffic as far ahead as they can. That's why I hate being behind trucks, 4WDs and vans- can't see far enough ahead.

[vifferman]

In any procession of vehicles, minor changes in speed at the front become major changes down the line. This is due to the compounding effect of everyone's reaction time.

Commonly observed in nose-to-tail heavy traffic, where those further down the line are frustrated by the "surging" speeds, with speeding up and slowing down happening without apparent reason.
Good analysis, VV. :niceone:
I'd wondered about that, but never thought it through like this. It drives me nuts, every night when I travel over the Harbour Bridge. People accelerate up the bridge, then have to slow down at the top, due to buses, trucks etc. labouring their way to the top. Behind them, there's this 'rubber-band' thing going on, with the train of vehicles compressing / stretching / compressing. The only way to deal with it is - as TonyB said - to maintain the 'two second rule', but that's almost impossible in D'Auckland traffic. If you leave a sensible gap, some eejit will go, "Ooooh.. a gap.... that lane must be going faster - I'll nip into it!" and eliminate the safety buffer you'd left. So you drop back, and the same thing happens, again, and again...

[Virago]

Good analysis, VV. :niceone:
I'd wondered about that, but never thought it through like this. It drives me nuts, every night when I travel over the Harbour Bridge. People accelerate up the bridge, then have to slow down at the top, due to buses, trucks etc. labouring their way to the top. Behind them, there's this 'rubber-band' thing going on, with the train of vehicles compressing / stretching / compressing. The only way to deal with it is - as TonyB said - to maintain the 'two second rule', but that's almost impossible in D'Auckland traffic. If you leave a sensible gap, some eejit will go, "Ooooh.. a gap.... that lane must be going faster - I'll nip into it!" and eliminate the safety buffer you'd left. So you drop back, and the same thing happens, again, and again...
I find the dynamics of traffic flow quite fascinating. I saw something on TV a few weeks ago, where they got some cars to slow down on a motorway, but not quite stop. Those further back ended up coming to a complete stop, and way back down the road about 3km, people ended up stopped for 2 or 3 minutes before things got moving again.

Ever been on a motorway and stuck in a traffic jam, and thought "must be an accident or something ahead"? Then when you get moving again, there is no sign on any cause for the snarl-up?

Fascinating, as well as blurdy infuriating.

[vifferman]

in a traffic jam, and thought "must be an accident or something ahead"? Then when you get moving again, there is no sign on any cause for the snarl-up?
Or something REALLY amazing, that no-one's never, ever seen before, and everyone has to slow down to gawp in astonishment at, like a ..


(wait.....)




broken down car!




Or....




Some flashing lights on the side of the road!

:weird:

[FROSTY]

Staggered riding--Why do we do it??
Once you understand the answers to that question then the critique will stop.
Stggered formation is for SAFETY for both riders

[Virago]

Or something REALLY amazing, that no-one's never, ever seen before, and everyone has to slow down to gawp in astonishment at, like a .
(wait.....)
broken down car!
Or....
Some flashing lights on the side of the road!

:weird:
Or the ultimate cause of the nose-to-tail accident..............women pedestrians!!!!!!!!

[Sparky Bills]

Or the ultimate cause of the nose-to-tail accident..............women pedestrians!!!!!!!!


:rofl: :Punk:
Hell yeah!

[MikeL]

On group rides there is only really a justification for staggered riding in built-up areas, where spreading out may result in problems getting through traffic lights etc. Why, on the open road at 100 km/h, would we need to be so close as to require staggered riding? As has been pointed out, an emergency could well involve a sudden swerve. I've seen riders bunched together at 120 - 140 km/h as if they're all desperate to keep up with each other.
Recipe for disaster.

[Drunken Monkey]

On group rides there is only really a justification for staggered riding in built-up areas, where spreading out may result in problems getting through traffic lights etc. Why, on the open road at 100 km/h, would we need to be so close as to require staggered riding? As has been pointed out, an emergency could well involve a sudden swerve. I've seen riders bunched together at 120 - 140 km/h as if they're all desperate to keep up with each other.
Recipe for disaster.

Bunching and staggered riding aren't necessarily the same thing. Riders should still stagger, even if spread out.

[MSTRS]

On group rides there is only really a justification for staggered riding in built-up areas, where spreading out may result in problems getting through traffic lights etc. Why, on the open road at 100 km/h, would we need to be so close as to require staggered riding? As has been pointed out, an emergency could well involve a sudden swerve. I've seen riders bunched together at 120 - 140 km/h as if they're all desperate to keep up with each other.
Recipe for disaster.
Study how far you travel in 2 secs at 100kph. You will be looking at the reason why.

[TonyB]

Study how far you travel in 2 secs at 100kph. You will be looking at the reason why.
55.556m :shutup:

[FROSTY]

Study how far you travel in 2 secs at 100kph. You will be looking at the reason why.
I see mikes point -Out of town its gonna be different once you settle into a groove the bikes spread out by heaps.
In town the staggered formation is important to give everyone max chance to avoid collisions

[MSTRS]

55.556m :shutup:
Close.....also need to allow some more for the fact that the rider in front is already slowing before you can react & begin slowing too. That amount is subjective as each of us has slightly differing reaction times & brake efficiency etc. Still don't want to stagger on the open road, MikeL?

[TonyB]

Close.....
Close?
100km/h x 1,000m/km = 100,000m/h
1 hour x 60 secs/min x 60 mins/h= 3,600 seconds
100,000m/h / 3,600secs/h = 27.77777777777 m/sec
or
just divide speed in km/h x 3.6

27.77777 m/sec x 2 sec = 55.556m :yes:

[vifferman]

Riders should still stagger, even if spread out.
... but only if they don't intend to ride. If they're staggering, they obviously have impaired balance. :whistle:

[Waylander]

I reckon the back can often be the worst place to be, due to what I call "the whiplash effect".

In any procession of vehicles, minor changes in speed at the front become major changes down the line. This is due to the compounding effect of everyone's reaction time.

Commonly observed in nose-to-tail heavy traffic, where those further down the line are frustrated by the "surging" speeds, with speeding up and slowing down happening without apparent reason.

Let's say everyone's travelling in convoy at 100kmh. The lead rider spots a potential hazard and throttles off, dropping to 90kmh. Rider Two throttles off, but due to his 1 second reaction time, he has lost his 2 second buffer, and has to reduce speed to 85 kmh to correct his following distance. The same happens to Rider Three, who has to slow to 80kmh, and so on down the line.

In a sudden stop situation, it is usually the guys at the back that get into trouble. If the sudden stop for the guy out front coincides with a catch-up spurt for the guys at the back, you've got a disaster on your hands.

It's the guys on the end of the whip who feel the crack.

That's why on proper group riding stagger formation the new riders are at front with the more experianced riders at the back.

That way not only are the slower riders up front and setting the pace but the experianced ones are less likely to have trouble with "the whiplash effect" as you put it.

[dangerous]

For those of who who are slow on the uptake, this means the ride leader rides on the right hand half of his lane, the next person on his/her left, the following person on right, then left again, then right again, ad infinitum. Spacing is the 2-second rule between people on your side, effectively putting the person on the opposite half only 1 second out, but if you stick to your half of the lane this shouldn't effect you.



Proper staggered formation riding only applys on the straight bits.

Turns and twistys dictate that you fall into single file to negotiate the turn, then form up again as you exit the turn.
Dito WT..... DM, I think that 1sec out even tho not in your direct line is too close 2sec and 4sec IMHO
Its easy to say "stick to your half of the lane this shouldn't effect you" but dosent always work like that.

A few years back when we used to follow to these rules but a lot closer (1sec- 2sec) a group of 10 (8 bikes) had a bad acco in the Hasst pass since then I tend not to follow so close and not in such big a groups.
The end result was 1 off in the air ambo, 2 off in the rd going ambo and 1 in the cop car (no room in ambo) and 2 others rubbing there very sore limbs (remaining 2 were out frount)

Thanks to a wanker drive of a "kiwi Experance" bus (17yrs and no licence but got of scott free cos daddy was a big lawer prick in Auckland) The bus came around on the wrong side of the rd on a bridge which ment ther was SFA room for the line of bikes (thank fuk in single file) there was only one way to go and that was straight into a shingled layby.... however some dident make it that far.

The pic's below are from that acco the 1st is a mate pointing out our skid marks (how much further to the left could we have gone gives you an idea were the oncomming bus was aye) the last pic is me seeing a mate of in the chopper, she hasent ridden since I never want to have to do or see that again........ what I'm saying is people please spread out 2sec's is bugger all when it turns turtel, ride safe and have fun :ride:

[sunhuntin]

the one big group ride ive been in on, staggered was the order of the day. the organisers let everyone know what was expected on the roads, ride staggered and stick to your position at all times [organised by local HOG and triumph owners members]
i rode on the back of a buell owned by a hog road captain. we maintained our position the whole way, but a number of riders at the back zipped past us to get at the front.

[MikeL]

Still don't want to stagger on the open road, MikeL?
I understand about the relationship between speed and distance. What I don't understand is why a rider would want to be so close behind another that staggering becomes important, unless it is a race. I would have thought that dropping back to a safer distance would have been preferable. Also each rider can then use whatever part of the road they want. If you are staggered to the left you have to deal with more potholes, gravel, camber etc.

[Jabez]

I can't understand why more cage drivers don't look through the windows of the car in front to watch the traffic as far ahead as they can. That's why I hate being behind trucks, 4WDs and vans- can't see far enough ahead.
I agree, I try look see as far as possible to ahead to avoid any potential emergancy. :niceone:

[GNR]

Ive only been out for a few rides, by myself, but one time i caught up to this older guy on a harleyish type bike thing, and we rode staggerd, I remembered :D:D, its makes sense to, as people havent explained ^^^^

[What?]

What I don't understand is why a rider would want to be so close behind another that staggering becomes important.
Yup. The Wild One was just a movie - not a doco on how to ride a motorcycle.

[XP@]

I too learned the same lesson the hard way.
I was following a friend round the east cape.
He was riding badly (taking corners really slowly and a lazy racing line)
So I was catching up through the corners and trying to hang back af far as poss in the long bits.
Eventually he managed to clip a car and ended up stopping VERY quickly on our side of the road.
At this time i was just under a second behind.
I was delaying apexes and doing the right thing but positioning of the car, my friend and his bike left me few options.
The only real option being his legs, and I didn't know if i was going to be able to stop in time.
So just before i hit i let off the brakes, a tincy but of throttle and went over his knees.

He did comment how light the F650 was, even with a full set of camping gear. Then proceded to limp around for a couple of weeks. Apart from that he had a dislocated thumb and sore nutz.

Now I am paranoid about following too close. I know just how quickly things can go wrong, and how bloody fast someone can stop when they are not on their bike.

[placidfemme]

I too learned the same lesson the hard way.
I was following a friend round the east cape.
He was riding badly (taking corners really slowly and a lazy racing line)
So I was catching up through the corners and trying to hang back af far as poss in the long bits.
Eventually he managed to clip a car and ended up stopping VERY quickly on our side of the road.
At this time i was just under a second behind.
I was delaying apexes and doing the right thing but positioning of the car, my friend and his bike left me few options.
The only real option being his legs, and I didn't know if i was going to be able to stop in time.
So just before i hit i let off the brakes, a tincy but of throttle and went over his knees.

He did comment how light the F650 was, even with a full set of camping gear. Then proceded to limp around for a couple of weeks. Apart from that he had a dislocated thumb and sore nutz.

Now I am paranoid about following too close. I know just how quickly things can go wrong, and how bloody fast someone can stop when they are not on their bike.

That sounds scary... good to hear your friend is ok though

*wouldn't like to be run over by a F650... lol I wouldn't even be able to pick one up if it dropped... so it would proberly squash me*

[Grumpy]

What I don't understand is why a rider would want to be so close behind another that staggering becomes important.

A bad habit a lot of us motorcyclists have developed..... tailgating :nono:

Done a lot of group rides through the years and staggered has always been the order of the day. It also makes it a little easier for the bike in front to see you in his mirrors.

[RiderInBlack]

Have alway tried to ride in a stagger pattern. Tend to go inline with more distance on fatser/tighter corners. Get frustated with riders undertaking in a group. Try it take the leftside when a faster ride is behind. Get frustated when a rider is holding the centre/right when it is obvious that a quicker rider is trying to pass.

[placidfemme]

Have alway tried to ride in a stagger pattern. Tend to go inline with more distance on fatser/tighter corners. Get frustated with riders undertaking in a group. Try it take the leftside when a faster ride is behind. Get frustated when a rider is holding the centre/right when it is obvious that a quicker rider is trying to pass.

Proberly a dumb question but... what do you mean by undertaking? Overtaking from the left?

[Gremlin]

Proberly a dumb question but... what do you mean by undertaking? Overtaking from the left?
I believe so. In NZ according to the road code it is frowned on, in some countries (I think the UK is one) it is actually illegal.

[Ixion]

I believe so. In NZ according to the road code it is frowned on, in some countries (I think the UK is one) it is actually illegal.

tis illegal in NZ (assuming that you are in the same lane). May only overtake on the left if the other vehicle is stopped ; or indicating a right turn; or turning right (I think there's one other case that I can't be shagged to remember or look up).

[justsomeguy]

The only people who shouldn't know what staggered riding is are those who haven't sat the scratch test or haven't read the road code or don't know about target fixation or don't have common sense or are......:whistle:

[dangerous]

May only overtake on the left if the other vehicle is stopped ; or indicating a right turn; or turning right (I think there's one other case that I can't be shagged to remember or look up).
That would be that it is ok to pass on the left if in another lane.... like on the motorway, a lot of people dont relise that down here were we only have one motorway and every bastard wants both lanes :drinkup:

[Gremlin]

tis illegal in NZ (assuming that you are in the same lane). May only overtake on the left if the other vehicle is stopped ; or indicating a right turn; or turning right (I think there's one other case that I can't be shagged to remember or look up).
I think thats about it.

What I tried to mean is that OK, its illegal, but I don't think they actively enforce the law as such. My aunt was in the UK a little while ago, and said the law is very much umm.... seen as a revenue source...

[Gremlin]

That would be that it is ok to pass on the left if in another lane.... like on the motorway, a lot of people dont relise that down here were we only have one motorway and every bastard wants both lanes :drinkup:
It is still technically undertaking though, you can do it, but I don't think you are actually meant to use a left lane like a right lane...

[dangerous]

It is still technically undertaking though, you can do it, but I don't think you are actually meant to use a left lane like a right lane...
yes you are........ how ballsed up are we in NZ must be the only country in the world were ya can...... no such thing as a fast lane slow lane here :drinkup:

[DingDong]

Proper staggered formation riding only applys on the straight bits.

Turns and twistys dictate that you fall into single file to negotiate the turn, then form up again as you exit the turn.

agreed, you can never predict what someone will do next... and to quote "riding is not a hobby, it's a way of life" some people are crooked and some are straight.

:yes:

[Jantar]

A bad habit a lot of us motorcyclists have developed..... tailgating :nono:

Done a lot of group rides through the years and staggered has always been the order of the day. It also makes it a little easier for the bike in front to see you in his mirrors.

Grumpy has got it perfectly. One of the main reasons for staggered riding is to be able to see the rider in front in HIS rear view mirror. If you can see him, then he can see you. The secondary effect of not being in the same part of the traffic lane is also an added safety issue, but not as important as the fact of knowing where other riders are.

When in general traffic I tend to ride in the same part of the road on my bike as if I was in the drivers seat in my cage, but positioned so that I can see the driver in front in his mirror. I would then expect other bikes following me to form in a staggered pattern so that I can see them.

If following another bike I will always ride staggered so that I can see the rider in front in his mirror. On tighter corners I will then drop back a bit further and take my own line through the corners.

[RiderInBlack]

OK, in this case when I was refuring to undertaking, I meant when riding in a group where there is only one lane in each direction, the passing rider is on the leftside of the rider he is passing, and both riders are in the left lane (in NZ that is NOT the oncoming traffic lane). Doing this does not leave you much room for error which puts you and the rider you passing at greater risk. Most Poker Runs will tell riders not to do this as part of their preride brief. It does not matter whether it is against the rules, it is just not safe. Don't do it unless it is to avoid an accident and there is no other option.

[XP@]

If every rider in the group knows the basic rules and you can trust them to follow them then you can have a lot more fun. and not have any surprises... we don't like surprises

[Dafe]

Yep, I've seen alot of riders all over the place too. I think riders should be responsible themselves and consider doing a CBTA safety course every two to three years. You might be suprised when you come to realise that there are a number of things you're not doing right and we can all use a friendly reminder from time to time.

[Jackrat]

A bad habit a lot of us motorcyclists have developed..... tailgating :nono:

Done a lot of group rides through the years and staggered has always been the order of the day. It also makes it a little easier for the bike in front to see you in his mirrors.

Couldn't agree with you more mate.
I like to have around 60/70 meters between myself an the rider in front.
I've been known to get REAL vocal towards riders that tail gate me.They seldom get it an often claim to have felt ok an quite safe about it.
It's then I've pointed out that their opinion doesn't come into it,I don't feel safe an that's the begining and end of it.
I certainly won't continue to make somebody feel unsafe just because it feels ok to me.In a situation like that, if I'm doing something they don't feel happy about, then my opinion doesn't count.
It's called consideration,just shouldn't be that hard to work out I reckon.
I also know my hanging way back has saved me a yarn with the law before today.On the main highways I'll often be a km or more back and I've had mates waved down by the law.They got booked an I just rode on by with a big smile. :devil2:

[Coldkiwi]

I understand about the relationship between speed and distance. What I don't understand is why a rider would want to be so close behind another that staggering becomes important, unless it is a race. I would have thought that dropping back to a safer distance would have been preferable.

yeah, you would think a bit more distance would make sense, but going by what I've seen on a few KB rides in the last year, that all goes out the windows for some reason at regular intervals. Some serious tailgating goes on (no freakin fun at all when its right behind you) and I'm pretty sure the riders don't even know they're doing it.

Perhaps this subject of staggering and/or distance is something that people organising rides should consider highlighting before the group leaves the first rendezvous point?