Read it. Pay attention. [Archive]

Ocean1

23rd December 2010, 18:52

"It doesn't matter how good you think you are - 98 per cent of crashes are caused by drivers... People still have the view that crashes are accidents. There is no such thing as an accident ... It's not an act of God."

This guys sounds like a cross between Katman and me. Good stuff. And he's a motorcyclist to boot.

I'm afraid I've got problems with most of that.

An accident is an inadvertent incident, nobody plans them. It’s patent nonsense to say there’s no such thing. You might mean that all accidents are preventable, (yet another modern safety industry slogan) but that’s also nonsense.

I’ll let the rest slide, my ice is melting. Can we agree that most unfortunate incidences are really really regrettable and leave it at that?

Katman

23rd December 2010, 18:57

This guys sounds like a cross between Katman and me. Good stuff. And he's a motorcyclist to boot.

If I'm still :brick: in another 25 years time someone shoot me.

98tls

23rd December 2010, 19:00

No doubt the guys seen it all and one has to feel for him but our lawmakers and co surely do nothing to help surely,i am well tired of the endless bullshit re drink driving, you only have to look at the bullshit sentences handed out to repeat offenders to come to the conclusion that they really dont give a shit.

Kickaha

23rd December 2010, 19:32

If I'm still :brick: in another 25 years time someone shoot me.

We could just shoot you now and save you 25 years of :brick:

Katman

23rd December 2010, 19:38

We could just shoot you now and save you 25 years of :brick:

I've forwarded that post on to the police.

98tls

23rd December 2010, 19:41

I've forwarded that post on to the police.

Sweet,ive nothing to worry bout then:woohoo:

Katman

23rd December 2010, 19:57

Et tu, Brute?

Kickaha

23rd December 2010, 20:03

I've forwarded that post on to the police.

As if Scumdog will do anything about it :whistle:

mashman

23rd December 2010, 20:03

"The New Zealand Road Assessment Programme, or Kiwirap, aims to reduce the number of fatal crashes by assessing risky roads and ways of fixing them."

If there's no such thing as accidents, then there's no such things as risky roads. Sounds like more money down the wrong crapper...

sinned

23rd December 2010, 20:08

Sweet,ive nothing to worry bout then:woohoo:
That pretty much sums it all up

bsasuper

23rd December 2010, 20:12

If an accident is caused by driver error/stupidity, thats called the fuckwit factor,and one less fuckwit on the roads (hopefully only taking themselves out though)

Ocean1

23rd December 2010, 20:12

Kiwirap, aims to reduce the number of fatal crashes by assessing risky roads and ways of fixing them.

The main thrust seems to be deleting curves. And where that's a tad expensive to reduce the speed limits to the point you've got to set your alarm to wake every hour or two to dodge careening amoeba.

tri boy

23rd December 2010, 20:17

Remove the bends, and statistics will show more head ons.
Travelling by modern vechiles is a complex and risky bussiness.
The shear number of people using cars/trucks/motorbikes etc means a percentage will die in that group.
The whole traffic policing format is flawed.MHO

98tls

23rd December 2010, 20:20

If an accident is caused by driver error/stupidity, thats called the fuckwit factor,and one less fuckwit on the roads (hopefully only taking themselves out though)

Sadly lately it seems after causing carnage they just walk away.Mind you we live in a country that sees fit to lower the driving age,give licences to people that cant speak English let alone read it, then theres the gaps between any meaningful tests for elderly drivers.

Katman

23rd December 2010, 20:21

There should be a straight line highway down the length of the country.

It would get a fair percentage off the scenic routes.

Will we ever afford one? :facepalm:

mashman

23rd December 2010, 20:22

The main thrust seems to be deleting curves. And where that's a tad expensive to reduce the speed limits to the point you've got to set your alarm to wake every hour or two to dodge careening amoeba.

Pointless putting any of that cash towards drivers Ed or a real campaign to highlight the dangers of using the road. OMG, people might have to go and find curvey pieces of road elsewhere :shit:...

You can change the road, but you can''t change the driver... seems to be the attitude...

Ocean1

23rd December 2010, 20:42

There should be a straight line highway down the length of the country.

They're called motorways. We don't have 'em, the things we call motorways are just roads.

If we aspire to modern first world conditions there'd be two. North and South.

LBD

23rd December 2010, 20:47

"People still have the view that crashes are accidents. There is no such thing as an accident ... "

I have to disagree with this....yes there is usually fault and culpability....but very few "Crashes" are intentional. If it is un-intentional it is therefore accidental....although negligance is a factor... if you have a crash, and are liable, you can often be found negligent

I had a crash a few years back, I stopped at a stop sign in a tropical down pour, I looked hard both ways and saw the road was clear and pulled out...and was collected by a dull grey car I failed to see. Yes I was liable and accepted that, but when I recieved a traffic infringment for failing to giveway, I argued the case...I did stop and look and then pulled out...I did not commit a crime or offence that warrants punishment, I had an honest accident...and I was let off. Cairns early 90's

98tls

23rd December 2010, 20:59

"People still have the view that crashes are accidents. There is no such thing as an accident ... "

I have to disagree with this

I had a crash a few years back, I stopped at a stop sign in a tropical down pour, I looked hard both ways and saw the road was clear and pulled out...

Well it wasnt eh,Tropical downpour etc (never been in one but if there as bad as they sound)and you took a chance which didnt come off,not having a crack fella but hardly an accident.

BMWST?

23rd December 2010, 21:15

There should be a straight line highway down the length of the country.

It would get a fair percentage off the scenic routes.

Will we ever afford one? :facepalm:

wont fix a thing the single vehicle accidents will be head on instead.Divided two lanes wont happen
People have to take proper care and attention.its that simple!

specter

23rd December 2010, 21:34

hmmm deleting corners is the last thing we need! bored,tired inattentive drivers! i say add corners and teach people how to drive finnish style! at least people would have an active involvement in driving

davebullet

23rd December 2010, 21:40

I've forwarded that post on to the police.

Not a wise idea. Kickaha may not have a gun, but the Police definitely do!

davebullet

23rd December 2010, 21:42

I'd love to see the cause and location of the most frequented accident roads (as per the collective and personal stretches mentioned in the article).

Head on crashes? -> Spend more money developing dual carriage ways and instaling concrete median barriers.

James Deuce

23rd December 2010, 21:56

I'm afraid I've got problems with most of that.

An accident is an inadvertent incident, nobody plans them. It’s patent nonsense to say there’s no such thing. You might mean that all accidents are preventable, (yet another modern safety industry slogan) but that’s also nonsense.

I’ll let the rest slide, my ice is melting. Can we agree that most unfortunate incidences are really really regrettable and leave it at that?

I don't quite understand that response. I've never had an accident and I've always contributed to whatever incident I've had. It is NOT an accident when someone falls asleep at the wheel, it is not an accident when someone crosses the centre line, it is not an accident when a drunk driver does what drunk drivers do, it is not an accident when someone runs a red light, it is not an accident when someone reverses over a child.

They're not accidents. I never said accidents were preventable.

My riff is that people fuck up and then try to assuage guilt or shame by labelling them as something inoffensive, like an "accident". They happen because people don't give enough of a shit to make sure they don't happen.

Negligent incompetence is not an accident.

If I wear lace up boots on a bike and fall off at the lights because the lace is looped around the kick start, that's me being a stupid mouth breathing loser, not an accident.

If I run a red and get killed by a bus, that's me being a selfish arsehole putting my needs ahead of a sensible traffic flow restriction designed to stop me being run over by a bus or running into someone else, not an accident.

Livestock on the road? Incompetent farmer, not an accident. Hitting the stock on the road? Incompetent rider for not managing the risk. It's not an accident. If the sheep was dropped from 30,000 feet by a passing UFO, that's an accident.

Losing control on a bend? The car/bike didn't do it.

They aren't regrettable incidents. They're people fucking up.

Voltaire

23rd December 2010, 22:14

Berries

23rd December 2010, 22:16

I did wonder how not speaking English made you a bad driver. Semble comme la merde à moi

LBD

23rd December 2010, 22:32

Well it wasnt eh,Tropical downpour etc (never been in one but if there as bad as they sound)and you took a chance which didnt come off,not having a crack fella but hardly an accident.

beg to differ...yes I was responsible and liable, no question and maybe if I paused longer or maybe if I looked harder or maybe if the other car had its lights on or was a different colour....but there was no deliberate intent to crash....there was a deliberate attempt not to crash by stopping looking and checking.

The Oxford defination of accident... "something that happens unexpectedly and is not planned in advance"

scumdog

23rd December 2010, 23:23

. It is NOT an accident when someone falls asleep at the wheel, it is not an accident when someone crosses the centre line, it is not an accident when a drunk driver does what drunk drivers do, it is not an accident when someone runs a red light, it is not an accident when someone reverses over a child.

They're not accidents. I never said accidents were preventable.

My riff is that people fuck up and then try to assuage guilt or shame by labelling them as something inoffensive, like an "accident". They happen because people don't give enough of a shit to make sure they don't happen.

Negligent incompetence is not an accident.

They aren't regrettable incidents. They're people fucking up.

What he said - VERY few crashes are actually true accidents - almost all are the result of one or more people screwing-up, - even if they didn't intend or plan to.

riffer

24th December 2010, 06:02

bThe Oxford defination of accident... "something that happens unexpectedly and is not planned in advance"

You're still not getting it. If there's NOTHING you did to contribute to the incident, and there's NOTHING anyone else did to contribute to the incident, then you might have a point.

But I bet in every road incident, there's something SOMEONE did that contributed. Therefore its not an accident.

Jim - you're right.

vifferman

24th December 2010, 07:40

I've had my share of crashes, and even though almost all of those that involved another person were (from a legal and insurance perspective) the other person's fault, in every case I knew there was something I could have done to prevent it. I think when you just lay the blame squarley at the other person't feet, you have learned NOTHING from it, so you run the risk of repeating any mistakes you've made.
But then some people are like that - all the mistakes they make in life are followed by excuses, finger-pointing and blame-shifting.

MSTRS

24th December 2010, 07:54

The Oxford definition of accident... "something that happens unexpectedly and is not planned in advance"

Hmmmm. MY definition differs slightly...in that an accident is "something that happens unexpectedly, could not have been foreseen or planned for, and could not have been prevented".
In your Cairns example, for you it was almost an accident. For the driver that hit you, it was a crash.

NodMan

24th December 2010, 08:29

Respect to that dude, I spent 20 years doing a similar job and can really relate to his words. There is far to much tragedy and bad driving on our roads.
My thoughts too! Stu gave so much!

I worked with Stu for 22 years and only now two years on do I realise how much the JOB changed our lives.I was a Naive motorcyclist with 15 years experience when I stopped being chased by the MOT/Police then went over to the dark side.

22 years and a million kms further down the road I had realised you can help some people but you cant help everybody! Doing next of kin notifications was always hard, but (as some of you know) when it comes to the next of kin of your best mate of 35 years it REALLY SUCKS, so I escaped to the republic up north, I still ride, but there is only one law up here....'ride to survive'

Ride safe everyone and treat every other road user as a nutter!

jonbuoy

24th December 2010, 08:47

Why do we have a word for "accident" if there is no such thing as an "accident". This is moving into dangerous liability, sue everyone for everything culture thats in the states and spreading through Europe. Neighbors kid trips over on a broken tile in your garden all of a sudden its not an "accident" its a blame game - somebodies fault that it happened. Child was poorly supervised or the garden wasn´t "safe". Accidents do happen, you can prevent all accidents - don´t get out of bed in the morning.

MSTRS

24th December 2010, 08:49

... you can prevent all accidents - don´t get out of bed in the morning.

That's just asking for a different sort of accident...

jonbuoy

24th December 2010, 09:09

That's just asking for a different sort of accident...

Nappies and an understanding wife? :sick:

Driver in a 4 x 4 nudging you off the road - not an accident.
Failing to give way on a slip road - not an accident.

Hitting loose seal on a corner - preventable accident
Highsiding off a damp roundabout - preventable accident
Tree branch falling on you - unpreventable accident
Heart attack at the wheel - unpreventable accident
Catastrophic engine failure (freak event) - Unpreventable accident
Catastrophic engine failure (design flaw) - Preventable accident.
Late for work - speeding hitting pedestrian - preventable accident.

StoneY

24th December 2010, 09:44

If I'm still :brick: in another 25 years time someone shoot me.

Sure!
Happy to oblige bruv!

Merry Xmas Katman and everyone on KB have a safe holiday

I do wonder though, if there is no such things as accidents how the f%^$ did I end up running BRONZ Wellington? :gob:

MSTRS

24th December 2010, 09:46

Remember the truck driveshaft that took out some poor innocent coming the other way?

Truck maintenance could have prevented it. Was that down to the truckie, or the company who owned the truck?

But the driver who was killed couldn't have done a thing.

Was that an accident or a crash/incident?
Where do you draw the line?

Jiminy

24th December 2010, 10:13

There should be a straight line highway down the length of the country.

And a WRB in the middle...

Ocean1

24th December 2010, 12:53

I've never had an accident and I've always contributed to whatever incident I've had.

*Shrugs* not really relevant, dude. What might be relevant is the size of your contribution.

Look, I get pissed because I see the other end of your premise, accident victims, (I can see your hackles rising already) getting abused because they didn’t take ALL adequate steps to prevent the accident. Don’t get me wrong, I understand that driver behaviour is the single most controllable factor. At least my behaviour is most easily controlled by me.

But any accident has a vast array of causal factors that must all switch true before the accident occurs. Oh yes, on the face of it there’s culpable negligence involved in all of these:

It is NOT an accident when someone falls asleep at the wheel, it is not an accident when someone crosses the centre line, it is not an accident when a drunk driver does what drunk drivers do, it is not an accident when someone runs a red light, it is not an accident when someone reverses over a child.

But in spite of being aware that most people semi-frequently fail to take prudent precautionary measures on the road I don’t believe the majority of accidents are so cut and dry. I think most of them are the result of a set of factors of which driver error is not only not the principle factor but falls some way down the list in terms of contributing factors.

So while failing to obtain a warrant of fitness is utter heresy worthy of outcry in the local rag of your choice I doubt very much if it’s likely to be a contributing factor in any subsequent accident. It MIGHT be, but it’s unlikely. To the point where the difference is statistically impossible to measure.

Look at any accident and you’ll be able to list the major contributing variables, some of them will be environmental, some will be vehicle related and some related to driver behaviour. There’ll be others outside those groups no doubt, but of the last group; some would have been amenable to mitigating strategies by the driver. Of those just a few might be considered lacking in due care.

In fact I suspect a tolerably low percentage of accidents are those where the driver behaviour elements are genuinely and clearly culpably foolhardy. I guess if you could describe every behaviour less than immediately and specifically dangerous but which nonetheless MAY contribute to an accident you’d have the basis for a list of proscribed behaviour. If you converted that into legislation and policed the living fuck out of it then you’d certainly have an impact on the crash rates, because the only people driving or riding would be those hardened criminals that didn’t give a fuck for the rules. Certainly none of the numerous and present company would consider driving or riding, it’d be impossible not to transgress. This is the path I think we’re on.

Which is a pity, because modern transport systems rank up there with modern healthsystems and modern engineering as heavyweight contributors to our quality of life. In fact I’d go so far as to suggest they contribute a shitload more in terms of overall life quality and life-time than they cost.

“There’s no such thing as an accident” is just a slogan, a silly one at that.

MSTRS

24th December 2010, 13:05

“There’s no such thing as an accident” is just a slogan, a silly one at that.

Not entirely silly - but perhaps a little optimistic.
Would you argue against "Accidents are quite rare" ?

MarkH

24th December 2010, 13:14

Sadly lately it seems after causing carnage they just walk away.Mind you we live in a country that sees fit to lower the driving age,give licences to people that cant speak English let alone read it, then theres the gaps between any meaningful tests for elderly drivers.

Lower the driving age? WTF? I thought that they were RAISING the driving age!

I've been in accidents that I could have avoided had I acted differently and I have been in accidents that I could not have done anything to avoid (though the other drivers could have). But I've never been in a deliberate crash incident. Accident = not deliberate, but of course that doesn't mean not preventable. If drivers paid more attention and drove with more care then there would be less accidents. Some may say it is just unlucky to be in an accident, but the more care you take the more lucky you seem to be.

LBD

24th December 2010, 13:18

You're still not getting it. If there's NOTHING you did to contribute to the incident, and there's NOTHING anyone else did to contribute to the incident, then you might have a point.

But I bet in every road incident, there's something SOMEONE did that contributed. Therefore its not an accident.

Jim - you're right.

Yes someone usually does something that contributes to a crash....usually an error of judgment of some sort....to fast for a corner, looked but did notsee (did not look hard enough)....but an error of judgment does not turn a crash into an intentional act as you are saying. It is like the difference between Murder and Manslaughter....one is intentional the other is accidental...

Although in my books a drink driver who kills in a crash should be penalized the same as a murderer...

I see three factors to be sized up in a crash...
1) At fault yes or no?
2) Accidental or intentional? (If intentional then criminal)
3) If accidental then apportioning liability, a sliding scale. Where at one end of the scale we have...
"he is responsible but there was absolutely nothing he could have done to prevent it"And at the other end we have ..."He was Drunk, stoned, tired and driving at 170kph through the school zone"

I think in this thread some are throwing crashes caused by varying degrees of stupidity and misjudgment in the same bucket as deliberate acts of intentional violence...The intent is different.

Ocean1

24th December 2010, 14:01

Would you argue against "Accidents are quite rare" ?

No. It's not even down to semantics, incidents with inadvertant outcomes are accidents, simple as that.

And no, I don't think all road accidents are avoidable in the sense that "if only I'd been more carefull it wouldn't have happened". We're not built that way, Men in particular, we take risks, we can't help it.

scumdog

24th December 2010, 14:23

I would see an unforeseen mechanical catastrophe or medical misdaventure as an accident......but bugger all else.

And no, drunkeness does NOT count as a 'medical misadventure'!

FJRider

24th December 2010, 14:50

No. It's not even down to semantics, incidents with inadvertant outcomes are accidents, simple as that.

And no, I don't think all road accidents are avoidable in the sense that "if only I'd been more carefull it wouldn't have happened". We're not built that way, Men in particular, we take risks, we can't help it.

We all take risks ... because of "it wont happen me" syndrome ...

MSTRS

24th December 2010, 15:08

No. It's not even down to semantics, incidents with inadvertant outcomes are accidents, simple as that.

And no, I don't think all road accidents are avoidable in the sense that "if only I'd been more carefull it wouldn't have happened". We're not built that way, Men in particular, we take risks, we can't help it.

Ah, did you miss my earlier post, where I differentiate between 'accident and 'crash' ?
Perhaps your interpretation of the two is not the same as mine.

Ocean1

24th December 2010, 15:18

Ah, did you miss my earlier post, where I differentiate between 'accident and 'crash' ?

No, it's just that it's nonsense. The two words are certainly distinct, have different meanings, you seem to be suggesting they're simply slightly different shades of the same thing?

Query: can one have an accidental crash?

Perhaps your interpretation of the two is not the same as mine.

Can we agree that most unfortunate incidences are really really regrettable and leave it at that?

MSTRS

24th December 2010, 15:22

The two words are certainly distinct, have different meanings, you seem to be suggesting they're simply slightly different shades of the same thing?

No. Short of actually saying it, I mean an accident is in the realms of 'Act of God' whereas a crash is not...

Ocean1

24th December 2010, 15:22

And no, drunkeness does NOT count as a 'medical misadventure'!

Not even if 'er indoors plies me with bubbles, in spite of hours of dedicated application to the Bourbon?

Ocean1

24th December 2010, 15:23

No. Short of actually saying it, I mean an accident is in the realms of 'Act of God' whereas a crash is not...

Ah, then yes, our understanding is at variance. I take an accident to mean an unintended event, nothing more. No Gods required.

MSTRS

24th December 2010, 15:28

Ah, then yes, our understanding is at variance. I take an accident to mean an unintended event, nothing more. No Gods required.

An accident is indeed unintended. But surely it goes further than that?
If it could have been foreseen, planned against and/or avoided, but wasn't, then happened, is it really an accident? Or is it more correctly described as a crash (or event)?

Ocean1

24th December 2010, 15:35

An accident is indeed unintended. But surely it goes further than that?
If it could have been foreseen, planned against and/or avoided, but wasn't, then happened, is it really an accident? Or is it more correctly described as a crash (or event)?

To what ends? How far would you push that reasoning? Would you have us carry out an in-depth risk assesment before each move? How much time and effort do we spend now to avert the one-in-a-million chance? And yes there is an answer to that, and everyone's answer is different and only slightly amenable to control.

Spearfish

24th December 2010, 15:49

So how many of this years crashes are the result from the efforts of a mythical deity?

Why is it I got emotional over those miners and donated a little money to the trust fund but just shrug my shoulders at 400 people being killed needlessly on our roads. where is their trust fund, media coverage, etc?
Fark that's four hundred people!!...dead!!

Fixing the top 10 black spots will just expose the next top ten, then once fixed, the next top ten.......but we wont fix the attitude to driving/riding through black spots..ever!

Crasherfromwayback

24th December 2010, 15:49

Some of you guys really make me laugh. While the original message is clear and great, some of the comments since are total shit.

An 'accident' can be caused by many things. Just because stupidity, carelessness and neglect often top the list, doesn't mean we can avoid them. We're human. We're not robots. We ALL make mistakes. Some of those mistakes have deadly outcomes...but they were still mistakes. Pre meditated murder is generally the only time one intends to kill another.

A friend of mine once had an accident with a very large, super sharp knife. She's a massively intelligent woman. But she knocked the kife off the table. There were kids about, and she instinctively tried to catch the knife, and sliced her finger open big time. Is she stupid? A mouth breathing inbred as James might put it? Nope. She fucked up in a very small way, and paid the price. Could've stabbed one of the kids in the head. That'd be far worse.

You people that live in your glass houses better be real friendly with a glazier. Because I'd be willing to bet my balls there isn't one of you that is mistake free. Especially when you were young enough to get a hard on.

MSTRS

24th December 2010, 15:54

To what ends? How far would you push that reasoning? Would you have us carry out an in-depth risk assesment before each move? How much time and effort do we spend now to avert the one-in-a-million chance? And yes there is an answer to that, and everyone's answer is different and only slightly amenable to control.

I guess they are just labels.
But I don't like the term 'accident' to describe a road smash.
To say "But it was an accident" suggests that nothing could have been done to avoid it happening. We all know that that is not the case - in almost every single event.

superman

24th December 2010, 16:06

James Deuce

24th December 2010, 16:07

Crasherfromwayback

24th December 2010, 16:12

Ahhh selective quoting is a wonderful thing. I throw stones at my own glass house, in case you struggled to read between the lines.

"Mistakes" are just an excuse to not take the business of sharing the road seriously. I'm tired of being fucked over because I trust people.

Not at all Jim...but I'm sorry it took that to get a reply out of you on this site.

Funnily enough...I have tipped a bike over when my laces got caught on the gear lever...so that makes me a mouth breathing inbred. But I did notice you made mention of your incident. That has nothing at all to do with my other comments...they weren't aimed at you.

By the way...I have been fucked over many times because I trust people. On a couple of occasions, it's nearly cost me my job.

Ocean1

24th December 2010, 16:14

But I don't like the term 'accident' to describe a road smash.

So much is evident. Takes more than that to change the meaning of a word, though.

To say "But it was an accident" suggests that nothing could have been done to avoid it happening. We all know that that is not the case - in almost every single event.

Hear that noise? It's the sound of minds closing en mass. Resorting to euphemisms and slogans in a paltry attempt at social engineering does that. If the pro's can't use that trick with any success then you won't change other peoples behaviour either, trust me.

Swoop

24th December 2010, 16:16

Head on crashes? -> Spend more money developing dual carriage ways and instaling concrete median barriers.
Why does this country need to spend vast amounts of money on median barriers? We have a captive workforce that could produce concrete median barrier sections at a "cost" rate of just the materials used.

Get prisoners contributing to this society.

James Deuce

24th December 2010, 16:19

Not at all Jim...but I'm sorry it took that to get a reply out of you on this site.

Funnily enough...I have tipped a bike over when my laces got caught on the gear lever...so that makes me a mouth breathing inbred. But I did notice you made mention of your incident. That has nothing at all to do with my other comments...they weren't aimed at you.

By the way...I have been fucked over many times because I trust people. On a couple of occasions, it's nearly cost me my job.

Again I was talking about my own experiences. Everything in that post were stupid things I've done. I don't need to point fingers, I have plenty of ammunition of my own. You can chose to take it personally if you wish.

I see people do the same frigging "mistakes" over and over without a care in the world. Do they not know what they're supposed to do or do you think it's more likely that they don't give a shit? The latter is more likely.

Crasherfromwayback

24th December 2010, 16:29

Again I was talking about my own experiences. Everything in that post were stupid things I've done. I don't need to point fingers, I have plenty of ammunition of my own. You can chose to take it personally if you wish.

I see people do the same frigging "mistakes" over and over without a care in the world. Do they not know what they're supposed to do or do you think it's more likely that they don't give a shit? The latter is more likely.

So if you've done so many stupid things, you're bloody lucky not to have killed someone. I know I am.
And yes...some people keep doing stupid things. They need to be removed from our roads. But they have (well some of them anyway) licences...so it's hard to get rid of them now. We need to make it a shitload harder to get a licence in the first place. But that will never remove the human element from 'accidents'.

As much as we'd all love to see it, we'll never have a zero road toll.

Katman

24th December 2010, 16:56

As much as we'd all love to see it, we'll never have a zero road toll.

Nobody's ever asked for a zero road toll.

A vast improvement would be sufficient.

BMWST?

24th December 2010, 17:14

Nobody's ever asked for a zero road toll.

A vast improvement would be sufficient.

we have had a vast improvement,it has been in the 6 and 700s....

Crasherfromwayback

24th December 2010, 17:19

There are also a shitload more people on our roads now. So all in all...we probably are improving.

Katman

24th December 2010, 17:34

There are also a shitload more people on our roads now. So all in all...we probably are improving.

You sound like you're happy with the standard of driving/riding on our roads.

neels

24th December 2010, 17:37

Human beings are human.

If you drop a brick on your foot, trip climbing up a step, or hit your thumb with a hammer does that make you a retard?

Occasionally humans get things wrong, when there are bad consequences it's unfortunate, but it's still an accident. Yes, any accident is preventable, but to what lengths do you go to?

Crasherfromwayback

24th December 2010, 17:43

You sound like you're happy with the standard of driving/riding on our roads.

Really? Guess it depends on how you like to read things. Not that you'd know or care...but I've been taken out by bad driving over the years. Nearly killed in fact. I may yet lose my right foot due to a silly thing someone else did. I also could've killed others when I was younger and dumber. But as badly as that sucks...it's also life.

Do you want to live...or live forever? 'Living' comes with risks. Living forever could bore you to death, and make you a boring cunt at the same time. People make mistakes. Those that claim they don't, aren't human, or they're full of shit. We can only do our best. It's just that some peoples best is better than others.

vifferman

24th December 2010, 17:48

If the sheep was dropped from 30,000 feet by a passing UFO, that's an accident.
Arguably, that's also not an accident, but due to a deliberate act of irresponsibility on the part of the little green men.

Berg

24th December 2010, 18:01

Berries

24th December 2010, 18:36

If you drop a brick on your foot, trip climbing up a step, or hit your thumb with a hammer does that make you a retard?
Unfortunately, yes it does.

Crasherfromwayback

24th December 2010, 18:50

Unfortunately, yes it does.

So you're a 'retard'? I'm assuming you've made the odd mistake in your life...

LBD

24th December 2010, 19:09

Arguably, that's also not an accident, but due to a deliberate act of irresponsibility on the part of the little green men.

Depends if they intentionally or unintentionally drop the sheep

Unfortunately, yes it does.

Only if you intentionally drop the brick on your foot. If you unintetionally drop the brick on you foot you are clumsy....if you do it twice you are probably a retard

Corse1

24th December 2010, 19:12

Might have to think about this one on Sunday:yes:

Katman

24th December 2010, 19:13

Only if you intentionally drop the brick on your foot. If you unintetionally drop the brick on you foot you are clumsy....if you do it twice you are probably a retard

Motorcyclists New Zealand wide are going "but, but, but..........."

Crasherfromwayback

24th December 2010, 20:12

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8562789/kite-boarder-killed-near-nelson/

and what a horrible way to start your X-mas. BUT...this is an accident! Was he a dickhead? No. He was having fun. Was he out of his depth skill wise? We don't know.

Could he have avoided this tragic accident? Yep. By staying home and wrapping himself in cotton wool. By the way...he could've also been blown across the road and knocked a motorcyclist into the path of an oncomming truck and killed him.

He (I'm sure) never meant to do what he did. You experts judge him now, let me know what you think. By the way...don't bring God into it.

Berries

24th December 2010, 20:17

So you're a 'retard'? I'm assuming you've made the odd mistake in your life...
A mistake is making the wrong choice, done that loads of times. I went to the office xmas party last night, that was a mistake. Dropping a brick on your foot is not a mistake, it's an accident. Have done that as well. And I am sure I was called a retard at the time.

Now, waking up with the office bike after the xmas party. Not sure whether that was a mistake, an accident or a crash. Whatever it was, I am as sore as buggery today.

Merry Chrimble.

Crasherfromwayback

24th December 2010, 20:20

Now, waking up with the office bike after the xmas party. Not sure whether that was a mistake, an accident or a crash. Whatever it was, I am as sore as buggery today.

Merry Chrimble.

As long as you're not sore due to a nasty itch it's all good.

Katman

24th December 2010, 20:20

He was having fun.

Roads aren't for 'fun'.

Berries

24th December 2010, 20:21

You experts judge him now, let me know what you think. By the way...don't bring God into it.
Being serious then, terrible accident. You need wind to kite surf, obviously a bit too much in that gust. Like riding a bike in the wind we have had this week. Is getting blown in to the path of an oncoming truck a crash or an accident ? I would say the latter if a sudden gust, but if it had been blowing hard all day perhaps you shouldn't have got on the bike ? I rode this week when trees were coming down and I know I probably shouldn't have.

Perhaps God was on my side.

Crasherfromwayback

24th December 2010, 20:28

Roads aren't for 'fun'.

You telling me...hand on heart hope to die..you've NEVER had fun on a ROAD?

Being serious then, terrible accident. You need wind to kite surf, obviously a bit too much in that gust. Like riding a bike in the wind we have had this week. Is getting blown in to the path of an oncoming truck a crash or an accident ? I would say the latter if a sudden gust, but if it had been blowing hard all day perhaps you shouldn't have got on the bike ? I rode this week when trees were coming down and I know I probably shouldn't have.

Perhaps God was on my side. But you did ride. And good for you too.

IF there was a God...would he let people suffer and die? When it wasn't their fault?

Don't tell me he's lonely, and wants the loved ones that leave families broken, more than they do. Oh dear...I'm starting to go off tangent regarding God now.

Katman

24th December 2010, 20:37

You telling me...hand on heart hope to die..you've NEVER had fun on a ROAD?

I'm capable of drawing a distinction between fun and enjoyment.

Crasherfromwayback

24th December 2010, 20:39

I'm capable of drawing a distinction between fun and enjoyment.

Even when you were way younger?

gatch

24th December 2010, 20:54

He has been an broken record since birth..

miloking

25th December 2010, 03:36

I don't quite understand that response. I've never had an accident and I've always contributed to whatever incident I've had. It is NOT an accident when someone falls asleep at the wheel, it is not an accident when someone crosses the centre line, it is not an accident when a drunk driver does what drunk drivers do, it is not an accident when someone runs a red light, it is not an accident when someone reverses over a child.

They're not accidents. I never said accidents were preventable.

My riff is that people fuck up and then try to assuage guilt or shame by labelling them as something inoffensive, like an "accident". They happen because people don't give enough of a shit to make sure they don't happen.

Negligent incompetence is not an accident.

If I wear lace up boots on a bike and fall off at the lights because the lace is looped around the kick start, that's me being a stupid mouth breathing loser, not an accident.

If I run a red and get killed by a bus, that's me being a selfish arsehole putting my needs ahead of a sensible traffic flow restriction designed to stop me being run over by a bus or running into someone else, not an accident.

Livestock on the road? Incompetent farmer, not an accident. Hitting the stock on the road? Incompetent rider for not managing the risk. It's not an accident. If the sheep was dropped from 30,000 feet by a passing UFO, that's an accident.

Losing control on a bend? The car/bike didn't do it.

They aren't regrettable incidents. They're people fucking up.

Bullshit...

If sheep gets dropped from 30,000 feet by a passing UFO its not and accident its aliens fault!

sinned

25th December 2010, 07:22

What he said - VERY few crashes are actually true accidents - almost all are the result of one or more people screwing-up, - even if they didn't intend or plan to.

This sums it up for me as the academic argument on what is an accident is not a lot of use. No matter how carefully you ride there will come that time!

An example most who have ridden for years/kms have experienced is the car turning right into your path; you see it, see the driver who seems to be looking at you, weave a little to be noticed, cover the brake - and then he pulls out - gaaah. If you hit the car are you a contributor to the accident/incident/crash; with some of what has been posted here the answer is yes and it wasn't an accident? Other than slowing to walking pace at every intersection how can you avoid that potential crash? And if you do that he/she will pull out thinking you are stopping/turning etc.

So lets get real - life is full of risks and riding a motorcycle increases your personal risk of injury or death. Manage those risks as best you can and if you can't then give up riding.

mashman

25th December 2010, 09:14

Bullshit...

If sheep gets dropped from 30,000 feet by a passing UFO its not and accident its aliens fault!

If the tractor beam malfunctions and drops them? Mechanical failure? Drunk multi-tentacled Service Technician?

mashman

25th December 2010, 09:20

This sums it up for me as the academic argument on what is an accident is not a lot of use. No matter how carefully you ride there will come that time!

The academic argument is all that matters in a court of Law, some people live by it. Was it really an accident? :facepalm:

Bonez

25th December 2010, 10:24

Bullshit...

If sheep gets dropped from 30,000 feet by a passing UFO its not and accident its aliens fault!Absolutely. NZ should be an alien free zone, what with them fucking with our sheep and all.

MSTRS

25th December 2010, 11:05

So much is evident. Takes more than that to change the meaning of a word, though.

Hear that noise? It's the sound of minds closing en mass. Resorting to euphemisms and slogans in a paltry attempt at social engineering does that. If the pro's can't use that trick with any success then you won't change other peoples behaviour either, trust me.

You think I'm using a trick? Playing word games, or something?
Fact remains, if an event was avoidable, then it's not truly an accident.

LBD

25th December 2010, 14:11

Fact remains, if an event was avoidable, then it's not truly an accident.

But there is a big difference between "avoidable before the fact" and "could have been avoidable..after the fact with the benifit of hind sight"

" If only I new then what I know now, I could have avoided the crash"

MSTRS

25th December 2010, 15:00

But there is a big difference between "avoidable before the fact" and "could have been avoidable..after the fact with the benifit of hind sight"

" If only I new then what I know now, I could have avoided the crash"

True, that. There are a LOT of motorists out there who have no idea...or would at least let you believe it were so.

Ocean1

25th December 2010, 15:50

You think I'm using a trick? Playing word games, or something?

Duno what you’re up to, I suspect that like a lot of people you’re attempting to reinforce the general concept that all accidents are predictable and therefore preventable, and that people should take more care, spend more time “predicting”. If that's the message you'd like to send then fine, choose better words.

Fact remains, if an event was avoidable, then it's not truly an accident.

It doesn’t make any difference how many times you repeat it, it’s not fact, it’s bollox. You’re attempting to insist that the words meaning is other than what it’s customarily understood to be, and I’d suggest that trying to alter the meaning of the word “accident” in some misguided attempt to, (presumably) minimise the FACT of them isn’t likely to make them any less common or frequent.

Also... about that message: Be aware that a reinforced degree of risk aversion in humans has been demonstrated to be synonymous with a high degree of behavioural uncertainty. I’m sure you know someone like that, whose driving behaviour is so uncertain and downright tentative that they’re actually a menace on the road? Well, it’s just my opinion, (and therefore based on a limited data set) but I'd rate uncertainty as one of the biggest factors in road accidents. I'd also rate the associated failure of rapid descision making to be the single biggest killer of motorcyclists, (check out the signature). And yes, that does amount to a suggestion that some forms of road safety programme are counterproductive.

LBD

25th December 2010, 16:08

There are a LOT of motorists out there who have no idea....

Ain't that the truth.... and the problem, because law makers aim at addressing the lowest common factor, instead of letting Darwin do his bit.

Road laws that are made based on the abilities of the knuckle draging minority are then inflicted on the rest of the population, no wonder much of the law is considered a load of bunk by the majority.

MSTRS

25th December 2010, 16:23

Duno what you’re up to, I suspect that like a lot of people you’re attempting to reinforce the general concept that all accidents are predictable and therefore preventable, and that people should take more care, spend more time “predicting”. If that's the message you'd like to send then fine, choose better words.

No. No. No. What is so fucking hard to understand? I simply made the differentiation between what is a crash and what is an accident. If my standard of what constitutes an accident differs from yours, then so be it. The concept is still 100% valid.

All CRASHES are predictable and therefore preventable.

ACCIDENTS are not. Perhaps I should call them Acts of God? Then you can argue that God is a subjective figment of my imagination, and therefore doesn't exist, so events claimed to be caused by him/her are a copout by the involved party. Or something...

May I remind you of the article that started this thread, where the retiring cop said "People still have the view that crashes are accidents. There is no such thing as an accident ... It's not an act of God."

Ocean1

25th December 2010, 16:52

No. No. No. What is so fucking hard to understand?

Nonsense, usually. In fact it’s probably the one universal common denominator, difficulties in translation an' all that.

All CRASHES are predictable and therefore preventable.

Accidents are not. Perhaps I should call them Acts of God? Then you can argue that God is a subjective figment of my imagination, and therefore doesn't exist, so events claimed to be caused by him/her are a copout by the involved party. Or something...

And the way I see it, in some circumstances a two-vehicle prang can be a crash for one of them and an accident for the other.

In fact, being, (for the meantime) artificially empowered in the department of “capable of understanding gibberish” by way of a substantial libation of the Xmas brandy I understand you perfectly. You propose that if it’s predictable then it’s not an accident, and as all crashes are predictable then ipso vercie: none of 'em are accidents. See: perfect translation.

The proposal’s bullshit, though. In assessing a theory, (that accidents aren’t accidents if they’re predictable) it’s useful to ask “is factor (a) universally true?” So, can it be said that all accidents are predictable? Yes, with enough data and enough time. So we’ve got a situation, here, gentlemen: “There’s no such thing as an accident”.

So why have we bothered inventing a word for it, then? All those years of verbiage; wasted. Critical tracts of verse; meaningless. Wordsworth’s toil all in vain.... But wait, what’s that on the horizon?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/accident

accident
–noun

1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
2. Law . such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought.
3. any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.
4. chance; fortune; luck: I was there by accident.
5. a fortuitous circumstance, quality, or characteristic: an accident of birth.
6. Philosophy . any entity or event contingent upon the existence of something else.
7. Geology . a surface irregularity, usually on a small scale, the reason for which is not apparent.

Thank fook for that, the English language; saved at last from the perverse renderings of the evel....

OK, OK, I'm off for a wee nap.

Antonio

25th December 2010, 17:08

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10696130

There's no such thing as an accident. Someone will have screwed up somewhere.

Nice article, thanks for sharing.
Merry X-mas.

mashman

25th December 2010, 18:33

All CRASHES are predictable and therefore preventable.

No they're not and by default, no they're not. Just because you have a trend that tells you what numbers you're likely to be looking at, does not make ALL crashes predictable. It makes it an educated guess at best, sometime, somewhere, a T-Junction crash will happen. Pretty vague really and hardly predictable.

Katman

25th December 2010, 18:45

So why have we bothered inventing a word for it, then?

It's the ultimate excuse.

Dare

25th December 2010, 19:12

accident
–noun

1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
2. Law . such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought.
3. any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.

It would appear everyone is arguing over different (correct) interpretations of the same word.

"any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause."
...Seems to cover everyones view.

Surely a discussion as to road based "risk" and suitable forms of management would be more productive than being so fucking pedantic when everyone is more or less correct anyway?

Oh wait I just remembered what forum I'm on.
As you were.

My 2c, mechanical or medical failure causing a crash is pretty damn rare. Making a mistake as the result of pure human error (I don't even know what that would be, being blinded by the sun possibly) is less rare. Making a mistake as a result of lack of training or discipline (emotional clouding, "it wont happen to me", I'm invincible, road rage, etc.) is more common. I think everyone can agree to that, now what?

98tls

25th December 2010, 19:50

It would appear everyone is arguing over different (correct) interpretations of the same word.

"any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause."
...Seems to cover everyones view.

Surely a discussion as to road based "risk" and suitable forms of management would be more productive than being so fucking pedantic when everyone is more or less correct anyway?

Oh wait I just remembered what forum I'm on.
As you were.

My 2c, mechanical or medical failure causing a crash is pretty damn rare. Making a mistake as the result of pure human error (I don't even know what that would be, being blinded by the sun possibly) is less rare. Making a mistake as a result of lack of training or discipline (emotional clouding, "it wont happen to me", I'm invincible, road rage, etc.) is more common. I think everyone can agree to that, now what?

What about waving,lets combine the 2 most common threads and argue that,anyone ever had an off whilst waving and if so was it considered an accident:woohoo:

Bonez

25th December 2010, 20:05

What about waving,lets combine the 2 most common threads and argue that,anyone ever had an off whilst waving and if so was it considered an accident:woohoo:No, but I did accidently wave once.:bye: Well I think it was only once.

98tls

25th December 2010, 20:09

No, but I did accidently wave once.:bye: Well I think it was only once.

:facepalm:Lets hope so eh.

98tls

25th December 2010, 20:25

Wow, agism and racism all in one nice little bundle. Kudos

Wow,in your case possibly jism.

carver

25th December 2010, 20:59

If I'm still :brick: in another 25 years time someone shoot me.

ok, no problem.....

Ocean1

25th December 2010, 21:16

It would appear everyone is arguing over different (correct) interpretations of the same word.

If that’s your understanding then I suggest you do a tad more research. There's a deal of pedantry going on, to be sure. Guilty. But the reason for my particular contribution is 'cause I'm sick of being bombarded with the pompous, ill-informed, righteously indignant diatribe from those who seem to think they’ve got some exclusive insight into How Shit Works.

Yes, most crashes have an human element. If you’ve a mind you can point to those and say “you did / didn’t do this / that, and therefore it's NOT an accident and you're a bad, bad person.” But the meanest perusal of behavioural anthropology would uncover the fact that... shock, horror, etc... Humans have remarkably little control over their routine (and therefore driving / riding) behaviour. Across the full breadth of the range of skills from rank beginner to full expert the risks each individual takes is part of them, built in, hard wired.

So diligently regurgitating the sort of anile crap that’s been foisted on us over the years by a stunningly ill informed and singularly ineffective safety culture wears fookin’ thin. Particularly as the evidence repeatedly demonstrates that it is indeed a crock of steaming excriment. And in spite of this the more strident and objectionable rantings have more in common with the louder religious preachings, in that they demand that other people need to change their wicked ways in order for all to be bliss. In a word..Fuck off.

So I’m just here to insist, again, that there is indeed such a thing as an accident. And to suggest that if anyone is desperate to minimise the risks associated with using the road then the very best thing they can do is to find a really thick book on How Shit Works, in the hope that sooner or later they’ll come to the more realistic understanding that it’s not about blame. Not even slightly.

LBD

26th December 2010, 00:47

in the hope that sooner or later they’ll come to the more realistic understanding that it’s not about blame. Not even slightly.

Agree with your sentiments on what is an accident, 100%, but I think in todays world blame does feature. Our system of liability, responsibility, insurance, compensation, litigation etc, ....blame has to be aportioned to those involed in an accident to make our legal/insurance/compensation system work....unlike the Govt no fault ACC system:facepalm:

superman

26th December 2010, 06:58

Wow,in your case possibly jism.

Well if you want to sit there targetting the easiest people to target then go ahead and act like your some omnipotent person because of your race and age. :yes:

Because that obviously makes you such a better driver... much less arrogant :facepalm:

MSTRS

26th December 2010, 10:21

... I understand you perfectly. You propose that if it’s predictable then it’s not an accident, and as all crashes are predictable then ipso vercie: none of 'em are accidents.....(that accidents aren’t accidents if they’re predictable)...all accidents are predictable? Yes, with enough data and enough time. So we’ve got a situation, here, gentlemen: “There’s no such thing as an accident”...
Thank Christ for that. Pity it took 'enough' alcohol to open your mind...although there really are accidents sometimes

So why have we bothered inventing a word for it, then? ...
:hitcher: Man needs labels to (think he can) understand stuff...

No they're not and by default, no they're not. Just because you have a trend that tells you what numbers you're likely to be looking at, does not make ALL crashes predictable. It makes it an educated guess at best, sometime, somewhere, a T-Junction crash will happen. Pretty vague really and hardly predictable.
The rules of chaos say that a predictable crash may not actually happen. But would you (or anyone) consider someone who is speeding in a school zone at 8.30am Mon-Fri, and is juggling a coffee and a piece of toast, who then bowls some poor kid, to have had an 'accident'?

It would appear everyone is arguing over different (correct) interpretations of the same word.

Nail meet Head

So I’m just here to insist, again, that there is indeed such a thing as an accident.
Agreed. <_<

My problem with the word 'accident' in terms of traffic crashes is that it seems to be used in the sense that the involved can abdicate their responsibility by calling it that. "It was an accident" suggests, not only was it unintentional (fair enough), but also "I couldn't have done anything to stop it happening". No doubt, such a situation does occur, a true accident, but generally speaking - a crash is what it is.

If accident is the wrong word to describe an unintentional, unpredictable event - then, other than Act of God (something that few would agree really exists), then please suggest a word that does cover what I and others interpret 'accident' to mean.:innocent:

Ocean1

26th December 2010, 17:55

My problem with the word 'accident' in terms of traffic crashes is that it seems to be used in the sense that the involved can abdicate their responsibility by calling it that.

You insist on continuing to display your ignorance in the matter?

"It was an accident" suggests, not only was it unintentional

Correct.

but also "I couldn't have done anything to stop it happening".

Incorrect.

It suggests no such thing.

Check the dictionary AGAIN.

Accident means there was no intent.

That's it.

Nothing there at all about avoidability.

Nada.

Zip.

Again:

No intent = accident.
Intent = not accident.

No further corespondence will be entered into on the matter.

swbarnett

26th December 2010, 18:13

Agree with your sentiments on what is an accident, 100%, but I think in todays world blame does feature. Our system of liability, responsibility, insurance, compensation, litigation etc, ....blame has to be aportioned to those involed in an accident to make our legal/insurance/compensation system work....
A reason, perhaps, but there is often no need for blame. To ALWAYS attribute blame is to deny that which makes us human.

Even if we know ALL the factors involved in a given situation ahead of time (an almost impossible task in itself) we cannot quantify all of them exactly. As such we cannot be blamed for an action that could only be seen to have been causitive in hindsight.

MarkH

27th December 2010, 09:38

No intent = accident.
Intent = not accident.

I agree with this - the definition of accident is unintended mishap, there is nothing to say that with more care it couldn't be avoided. Almost every accident of every kind is avoidable - that doesn't make them 'not accidents'. Even accidents around the home like falling off a ladder, cutting yourself with a kitchen knife of burning yourself with the stove are all avoidable accidents, but accidents non the less.

All this arguing about the commonly accepted definition of accident being wrong just seems so silly. All that needed to be said was "most accidents are avoidable" and then this thread could be reduced to about 1/4 of the number of posts.

To summarise:
The only car crashes that are not really accidents are the ones where someone crashes on purpose. But over 99% of all accidents are avoidable.
If we can all agree on this then we can move on to more productive discussion!

Katman

27th December 2010, 13:26

I think what we're trying to establish here is that if '"accidents" were seen less as "accidents" we'd all start looking more closely at how we can avoid being part of an accident.

Bonez

27th December 2010, 13:57

Appearently "There's no such thing as an accident. Someone will have screwed up somewhere."

Brian d marge

27th December 2010, 15:20

Appearently "There's no such thing as an accident. Someone will have screwed up somewhere."
Id agree with this ... and add . it takes two to tango ..

usually in the ratio of 80/20
I wish more people would just say whoops , screwed up that one .. my bad or I did judge that to well ...

it really doesn't matter if it was an accident intended or not the front bonnet of Joe plumbers shaggin waggin hurts like buggery

Stop making excuses and improve ya road craft , stop being the hard done by victim and get on with it ,,, IMHO that its

Stephen

Bonez

27th December 2010, 15:31

I wish more people would just say whoops , screwed up that one .. my bad or I didn't judge that too well ...There ya go, all fixed. I couldn't agree more with that.

Voltaire

27th December 2010, 15:45

Joe plumbers

Wow I didn't know they had Joes Plumbers in Japan....done well that Joe :innocent:

I work for a large US company who operate data centres....apparently 70% of all 'outages' are human error. God doesn't any blame as he can't be sacked.
Still I can't see motorists wanting to do a safe work method statement have it approved and filed every time they want to go to the shops....

BMWST?

27th December 2010, 15:58

Ok i get it.An accident is not a accident really.Stop trying to convince us and tell us HOW to stop having accidents.
I want to know.

MarkH

27th December 2010, 16:17

I think what we're trying to establish here is that if '"accidents" were seen less as "accidents" we'd all start looking more closely at how we can avoid being part of an accident.

How about if we just establish that accidents are almost always avoidable things and we should start looking more closely at how we can avoid being part of an accident. Do we really need to alter the definition of a word that is in common usage just to tell people to be more careful? Taking care really doesn't need to be partnered up with an argument on the use of language.

swbarnett

27th December 2010, 18:23

tell us HOW to stop having accidents.
Stop being human.

As long as there is a human involved accidents will happen. We may be able to reduce the frequency but we'll never eliminate them completely and trying to is only going to lead to automated roads (i.e. no motorcycles) and turn us in to automatons.

The only sensible approach that I can see is to improve your own road craft and let everyone else worry about themselves.

dipshit

28th December 2010, 15:18

beg to differ...yes I was responsible and liable, no question and maybe if I paused longer or maybe if I looked harder or maybe if the other car had its lights on or was a different colour....

Or how about your decision to be riding in a tropical downpour with its inherent dangers of reduced visibility etc...

If you own a light aircraft would you choose to fly in severe weather conditions..??

If you own a small boat would you choose to go out to sea in a southerly 5 meter swell...???

If you did would not such decisions be labelled as irresponsible and contributed to your "misfortune".

MSTRS

29th December 2010, 10:02

You insist on continuing to display your ignorance in the matter?

If accident is the wrong word to describe an unintentional, unpredictable event - then, other than Act of God (something that few would agree really exists), then please suggest a word that does cover what I and others interpret 'accident' to mean.:innocent:

You're quick to put a label on me, but can't give me an alternative word to describe what I (and there are a lot of us that do) refer to as 'accident'...and then you refuse to 'discuss it any more'. Hmmm...

BMWST?

29th December 2010, 10:12

You're quick to put a label on me, but can't give me an alternative word to describe what I (and there are a lot of us that do) refer to as 'accident'...and then you refuse to 'discuss it any more'. Hmmm...

but your labels and attitude are just as inflexible.Surely it doesnt do any good to argue about the semantics of accident,crash,wreck or incident.
i think we all basically agree that most "accidents" have some degree of prevention about them.How do we start to eliminate the most easliy preventable ones...How do we start to CHANGE peoples behaviour on the road.Some will argue that we have to change our selves first but i think it is a general road user issue.How do we change it?

MSTRS

29th December 2010, 10:19

Stop calling them accidents. That might help change people's attitudes to driving. Look at some of the causes of prangs...inappropriate speed, crossing the centreline, travelling too close, failing to obey stop signs, etc - a good case could be made for calling those acts INTENTIONAL, meaning a resulting prang is not an accident under anyone's definition.
I may be intractable (too) but that doesn't make me wrong.

Owl

29th December 2010, 10:32

but can't give me an alternative word to describe what I (and there are a lot of us that do) refer to as 'accident'.

How about "neglident"?:facepalm:

avgas

29th December 2010, 10:37

I dunno if the problem is what he thinks it is.
Everyone is jumping on a bandwagon of "bad drivers crash - you don't know your own skills....blah blah blah"
but for an engineer the concept is very simple - say I take 1 ton of metal and throw it down the road at 100kph. I then make this into a piece of industrial equipment. I am then told by the government that I need to put a big sign on this machine to state "this equipment can cause death".

Next time you jump in the car, or on the bike......have a quick thought about what I have said - tell your family you love them then look down at the dash an imagine I have put sticker there for you saying "This vehicle can cause death"

Your all arguing about who crashes and who doesn't. Fact of the matter is we all have the potential to crash and die and that respect is not there. Whether you have been on the road 2 years or 20 years - the machine will kill you all the same.
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