Intermittent starting problem

[swbarnett]

My wife is having a problem on her '98 600 Hornet whereby it starts fine every time at home after sitting overnight but refuses to start after stopping along the way. The strange thing is that if she sits long enough (5 or 10 mins) it starts without any issues.

When it fails to start the headlight dims as normal but NOTHING else happens, dead silent.

I thought the battery might be dying as it's a few years old (can't remember exactly how many) so I've swapped in a new one but it's still happening.

Any ideas?

[vifferman]

Dodgy starter relay? (Usually located near the battery).
Some Hondas sometimes have problems with the starter clutch, where if some component of it is worn/loose, it does exactly what you've said: light dims, current appears to flow, but the starter doesn't whir, whizz or otherwise show any signs of life.

[scumdog]

Get a Harley:woohoo:




Seriously, sounds like a sticking solenoid and/or a poor battery connection, possibly an earth, - does it make a 'click-click' as you try to start it?

[Laxi]

Get a Harley:woohoo:


you mean seeing as it wont start anyway, you might as well own a harley?:yes:

[scumdog]

you mean seeing as it wont start anyway, you might as well own a harley?:yes:


Nice try but no....

[swbarnett]

Dodgy starter relay? (Usually located near the battery).
Some Hondas sometimes have problems with the starter clutch, where if some component of it is worn/loose, it does exactly what you've said: light dims, current appears to flow, but the starter doesn't whir, whizz or otherwise show any signs of life.
Sounds like a reasonabls theory.

The question remains as to why it starts after a while if just sitting.

[swbarnett]

Seriously, sounds like a sticking solenoid and/or a poor battery connection, possibly an earth,
The battery connections are good. I'll see if I can find the earth.


- does it make a 'click-click' as you try to start it?
No click, just dead silence.

[notme]

If you can reliably track it down to temperature i.e. only does it when hot, it's likely to be things expanding and contracting with heat.

The frame will expand at a different rate to the bolts and connectors especially on large gauge wiring like the starter circuit.

Look for a loose connection and check earth points etc. This is the most likely culprit since you say the solenoid is not even clicking.

Bear in mind that it could also be electrical, so I'd suggest checking that the charging system is OK using the standard chart, it's quick and easy and only involves 3 or 4 steps if everything is working fine.

[Max Preload]

If it's a remote solenoid which I expect it is, bridge the big terminals with a hefty screwdriver to see if the starter always operates.

If it doesn't operate the starter every single time, I'd say brushes. If it does, check the solenoid resistance out.

You could also crudely load test the battery. Begin by fully charging the battery and then measure the voltage across the terminals when it's cranking (disable the ignition system so it doesn't start by removing the fuse). It shouldn't drop below about 9.6V after 15 seconds @ 20ºC. If it does, the battery is on its way out.

[notme]

If it's a remote solenoid which I expect it is, bridge the big terminals with a hefty screwdriver to see if the starter always operates.

If it doesn't operate the starter every single time, I'd say brushes. If it does, check the solenoid resistance out.

The OP has already said that there is no click, this means that the solenoid is not operating. There's not much point bridging it to check the starter - we already know the problem is at or before the solenoid.



You could also crudely load test the battery. Begin by fully charging the battery and then measure the voltage across the terminals when it's cranking (disable the ignition system so it doesn't start by removing the fuse). It shouldn't drop below about 9.6V after 15 seconds @ 20ºC. If it does, the battery is on its way out.


There's nothing wrong with this advice, but it is a subset of all the possible electrical issues that you might have. Try the detailed procedure described here, specifically step 3 "check the charging system and battery" for a more detailed idea of your bike's electrical system health.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/132696-Basic-troubleshooting-steps

[Max Preload]

When it fails to start the headlight dims as normal but NOTHING else happens, dead silent.Dims due to a load elsewhere or actually goes out leaving only the park light?


The OP has already said that there is no click, this means that the solenoid is not operating. There's not much point bridging it to check the starter - we already know the problem is at or before the solenoid.I missed the bit about no click.


There's nothing wrong with this advice, but it is a subset of all the possible electrical issues that you might have. Try the detailed procedure described here, specifically step 3 "check the charging system and battery" for a more detailed idea of your bike's electrical system.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/132696-Basic-troubleshooting-stepsI mentioned it because he said he swapped it out. Now he can check his one.

[swbarnett]

Dims due to a load elsewhere or actually goes out leaving only the park light?

Hard to be absolutely sure from sitting on the bike but I'm pretty certain it goes out. It's exactly what happens under normal starting.

[Katman]

Try replacing the earth lead.

Earth leads can, over time, build up an increased resistance which gets worse when hot. The high amperage drawn by the starter motor is then unable to travel along it.

[p.dath]

My uneducated thoughts;

Since the starter relay is failing to click, the fault must lie between the battery and (including) the relay.

So I'd try getting an electrical diagram of the bike, and grab a multimeter. When the fault is occurring, is there power on the input of the relay switch terminal? If so, the relay may be stuffed. If not, pull out the starter fuse. Is power making it to the fuse socket?

And keep going, narrowing down the tests points, until you know between which two points power is not making it. When complete, you'll have found the fault.

[scumdog]

Try replacing the earth lead.

Earth leads can, over time, build up an increased resistance which gets worse when hot. The high amperage drawn by the starter motor is then unable to travel along it.

Worth a try.
Yonk ago normajeanes Sporty had a problem - tracked down to frame end of earth strap coming away from the terminal that bolts it to the frame.
But it LOOKED o.k. because the plastic 'shrink-tube' was still holding things together but bugger-all contact being made.

Similar symptoms to yours

[notme]

Progress bud? Sunday vicarious troubleshooting you see.... :yes:

[swbarnett]

Progress bud? Sunday vicarious troubleshooting you see.... :yes:
Progress indeed.

I did some multimeter tests around the starter relay while the bike was in a "starting state" - all good. Later the same day we got back and it wouldn't start so I redid the tests - all dead. I electrically bypassed the starter relay and the starter motor did turn over. My thinking then (from my findings and the useful advise from this thread) was that the problem must be somewhere in the circuit that initates the relay when the starter button is depressed. As the earth continulty test on the relay plug failed I was thinking that the relay was not the problem as this was not done through the relay.

At this point I left things alone and walked away to think - "what are the components of the starter relay initiation circuit". From my limited knowledge I deduced that this boils down to the starter switch, kill switch and the wiring (I can't quite remember my reasoning but I had eliminated the clutch and side stand swith as the culprit).

The starter switch is obviously fine because the headlight goes out as it should. This left the kill switch as the next component to check. I went back to the garage and tried to start the bike - no go. I then rapidly flicked the kill switch on and off several times. Hey presto! Se's alive!

I then proceeded to dismantle the kill switch and found the contacts to be very dirty. A good clean, polish and reassembly later and, so far, fingers crossed, she seems to be starting every time.

[notme]

Good on ya. Some people just give up and throw it to a supposed expert - who would charge you a hefty fee for just cleaning some contacts! I know, because I've done it ;-)

I have slightly modified the advice in steps 2 and 5 of my thread here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/132696-Basic-troubleshooting-steps), based in part on this issue.

One other thing - if the fault reoccurs, DON'T say "oh fark, I didn't fix it after all..." rather say "hmmm maybe I didn't quite clean up that switch 100%" and/or "hmm it may not have been the switch, but at least now I know what it's NOT, and I know more than when I started" :scooter:

[swbarnett]

To those of you that might be wondering. Yes, I tested the kill switch after re-assembly and it still works.

Cheers guys, your comments were very helpful.

[scumdog]

To those of you that might be wondering. Yes, I tested the kill switch after re-assembly and it still works.

Cheers guys, your comments were very helpful.

The XN85 has an intermitant similar problem, the engine whizzes over but no start, I SUSPECT it is linked to the kill-switch.

Since I've stopped using it I have had no further problems...but I'll bear your experience in mind and have a look into the kill-switch at soem stage.

[notme]

The XN85 has an intermitant similar problem, the engine whizzes over but no start, I SUSPECT it is linked to the kill-switch.

Since I've stopped using it I have had no further problems...but I'll bear your experience in mind and have a look into the kill-switch at soem stage.

Keep an open mind regarding fuel system too though - it's pretty unusual for a bike (except some ATV/dirtybikes and the like) to have the kill switch cut ignition but allow the starter to turn.

Then again, that's a pretty unusual bike!

[swbarnett]

Keep an open mind regarding fuel system too though - it's pretty unusual for a bike (except some ATV/dirtybikes and the like) to have the kill switch cut ignition but allow the starter to turn.
Certainly with my wife's Hornet the engine doesn't turn over with the kill switch engaged.

[BMWST?]

wasnt at all unusual at the time for the kill switch not to disable starter(was it?)

[notme]

Usually on older i.e. simple ignition and magneto type bikes the killswitch will disable spark (often by shorting ign to gnd). Often this type of simple ignition does not have a starter motor, because a starter implies a battery which means a charging system and so on.

Once an electric starter comes into the picture, if you think about the logic - why would you waste battery cranking over the heavy current draw starter? It's a really obvious indication to the user that the killswitch is off it nothing at all happens when you press the start button, and it saves power.

[swbarnett]

wasnt at all unusual at the time for the kill switch not to disable starter(was it?)
The starter motor didn't engage at all. There was no sound whatsoever (apart from maybe a bit of cursing from the temporarily stranded rider).

The problem was that the kill switch disabled the entire starter system (as it's supposed to do when in the correct position) due to dirty contacts.

[Gareth123]

I had the same problem as you did. Bike wouldn't start easily when it was hot and would lose a bit of power as well when it was running. Turned out the regulator/rectifier was breaking down.

Glad you got your problem sorted though.

[swbarnett]

I had the same problem as you did. Bike wouldn't start easily when it was hot and would lose a bit of power as well when it was running. Turned out the regulator/rectifier was breaking down.

Glad you got your problem sorted though.
Thanks. Bike hasn't skipped a beat since I cleaned the contacts.

[imdying]

Some people just give up and throw it to a supposed expert - who would charge you a hefty fee for just cleaning some contacts!No, not just for cleaning some contacts. You're paying for the expertise in finding which set of contacts to clean in the first place.

[notme]

Sortof....substitute the word "experience" for "expertise" and that statement is true most of the time!

An auto sparky will have seen many problems in the past related to dirty contacts and similar, so for anything intermittent one of the first things he'll usually do is spray contact cleaner through the related switches and connectors. If the fault changes or goes away he knows where to look.

Even better is if he has had 20 bikes that week with the same fault, because that sort of rote learning means he can fix the fault in 2 minutes, still of course charging the minimum one hour labour :msn-wink:

[imdying]

No, he is not going to find that fault and fix it in 2 minutes. You're over exaggerating the reality because without that over exaggeration the point doesn't stand up to scruitiny. Yes there are unscrupuolous vendors who will grossly over charge for 5 minute jobs, but in my motor industry time I've found them to be the exception... here in NZ the opposite is far more likely to apply (i.e. they go yep I know what that is when faced with a small common problem, and then drop tools and fix it for nothing). It is of course customary to turn up the next day with a dozen piss for them :yes:

I have no problem with people charging honest money for honest work, that's how they stay in business for the next time I need them... wanna see what I think reeks, check out the thread about my seat cowl.