Keeping my arse end on the ground

[racefactory]

Braking hard on my 06 ZX6R ( suspenders re gassed and oil changed by CKT) I am finding the rear is coming up too easily.

Just a hard ride around average surfaced country back roads under brakes and the back end is just flying in the air, even yawing around sideways on a corner entry. After a while I went to practice some emergency braking to see if I could improve things but no matter what posture, tank squeezing, weight distribution etc I used... I could not get even close to the front skidding/locking. This is something I have always been able to do on other bikes and told me I was at maximum braking ability of the tyres.

I want to know if there is something that can be done to give me more braking power should I need it in an emergency. The last thing I want to do is just fly over the handle bars into a car that's pulled out in front of me. It's assuring to know that I could lock the tyre should I want to.

ZXR250, VFR400 nc30 and other 90's sports bikes definitely stop quicker than this thing.

I am guessing a lot has to do with the CG since those 90s bikes are far lower (especially NC30s with the low V4 motor). Also those bikes dive a hell of a lot more. One thing is for sure- you have to put a hell of a lot of force into braking to have the rear lifting on those bikes and that's if you're front doesn't lock first!

Maybe there are some suspension adjustment techniques that could give more available braking power before the back wheel comes into the air?

Less preload to lower the bike?

More front preload and less rear preload to tip the bike slightly up?

I have a good sag setting so I'm not keen to rip into anything without reason.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the tyres have obviously got way more grip than I can make use of at the moment. It definitely does not stop as fast as a ZXR400 I can tell you that! (This is modern machinery- so I'm guessing it can out do a 90's sports bike with abused to fuck rear shock and forks on the brakes!)

Suspension specialists please share your knowledge!

[slofox]

How much rear brake do you use in an emergency stop routine?

[racefactory]

non of course, there's no weight on it!!! Instant lock up if you are braking at 100%

[Katman]

non of course, there's no weight on it!!! Instant lock up if you are braking at 100%

There's a theory that says in an emergancy braking situation you should initiate the braking action with the rear brake. It causes the rear to squat down somewhat thereby adding to the power imparted on the front.

[Taz]

You could just slow down Rossi :lol:

[racefactory]

There's a theory that says in an emergancy braking situation you should initiate the braking action with the rear brake. It causes the rear to squat down somewhat thereby adding to the power imparted on the front.

Good point katman.

While it makes sense it's just one more thing to worry about and distract you from giving full attention to the front. I sometimes try that.

[sinfull]

http://www.gostar-racing.com/club/How_I_set_up_my_motorbike.pdf

Yr front not skidding tells me it's suspenders are working properly, you might be able to increase braking with new pads and a brake bleed, maybe even braded lines if you want to go over board

The rear i recon is just a lack of rebound, (too slow extending) have a read of the above link and see if ya cant get ya head around it ! The bit where it says the front and rear should be reacting equally is important, as is the bit where it says write down yr present settings

[Pussy]

Maybe try a bit more compression damping at the front?

[AllanB]

Braking hard on my 06 ZX6R I am finding the rear is coming up too easily.

I could not get even close to the front skidding/locking.
I want to know if there is something that can be done to give me more braking power should I need it in an emergency.


I'm confused - the bike has enough front braking to do stoppies all the time but you want more for emergencies?

Try a much slower speed to lock the front - there is no way you want to lock it at anything over a walking pace!

If you have not replaced your brake fluid in the past 24 months, do it - it will make a world of difference to lever feel.

The 06 ZX6R should easily out brake those old 90's bikes - braking and tyre technology has come a long way since then.

[SPP]

Good point katman.

While it makes sense it's just one more thing to worry about and distract you from giving full attention to the front. I sometimes try that.


What Katman said!

Rear before front does squat the rear and it doesn't dive so abruptly. Rear after front seems to do feck all once the front is diving.

I'm not a suspension dude but if you're struggling to keep the rear end down then (to me) that sounds like either your front is soft and compressing too quickly (and possibly bottoming out?) or you're charging and braking very hard and late. Probably a bit of both eh?

I wouldn't have thought dialling in more fork preload is the fix.


Try a zip tie on a fork leg and check travel. Is it bottoming out? Spring rate good for you?
Try a tickle more compression damping (Like Pussy...not you, him). Not too much though because braking distance turns to shit i.e. long
chuck a leg out too, that's what rossi would do :bleh:

[racefactory]

I'm confused - the bike has enough front braking to do stoppies all the time but you want more for emergencies?

Try a much slower speed to lock the front - there is no way you want to lock it at anything over a walking pace!

If you have not replaced your brake fluid in the past 24 months, do it - it will make a world of difference to lever feel.

The 06 ZX6R should easily out brake those old 90's bikes - braking and tyre technology has come a long way since then.

I'll say it again, it's not about the brakes or tyres. riding nc30 etc etc (they have awesome brakes anyway) i was always using the mean as Bt090- better than pilot power on zx6r imo.

What this problem seems to be about is geometry.

It's that I can't use the full grip of the front tyre because the rear is in the sky already, whereas on those 90's bikes i could usually exploit the tyre to it's max and so I could stop more quickly (unless i was stiff arms, weight on the handle bars, not gripping tank, then the rear wheel comes up)

[racefactory]

Try a zip tie on a fork leg and check travel. Is it bottoming out? Spring rate good for you?
Try a tickle more compression damping (Like Pussy...not you, him). Not too much though because braking distance turns to shit i.e. long
chuck a leg out too, that's what rossi would do :bleh:


Forks not bottoming out. Just under an inch left under full brakes with stock settings. However these bikes do have top out springs.

Stock setting is 3/4 turn from full compression damping though, so can't really increase it much.

[Pussy]

I'm still thinking that the front is compressing too quickly under braking. That will affect geometry. It probably needs more low speed compression damping....
or the valving is a bit soft

[racefactory]

I'm still thinking that the front is compressing too quickly under braking. That will affect geometry. It probably needs more low speed compression damping....
or the valving is a bit soft

Yeah im doing some reading about this now. No harm in trying it I guess. Though can't get my head around how it would stop the rear coming up, especially since it's not bottoming out as it is. I think comp speed is more to do with cornering than actually braking from what I can see.

Good link to that suspension set up from whoever that was, cheers.

[Pussy]

It doesn't have to be bottoming.... just compressing too fast will have the same affect

[sinfull]

Yeah im doing some reading about this now. No harm in trying it I guess. Though can't get my head around how it would stop the rear coming up, especially since it's not bottoming out as it is. I think it's more to do with cornering than actually braking from what I can see.

Good link to that suspension set up from whoever that was, cheers. No way i could see RT letting the bike leave his place with a soft front end (comp damping) But could see him letting it leave with a little too much rear rebound for the hard braking ya doing (sounds like race track braking which he wouldn't have set it for), i found the same thing on the track, front was fine but because i was so hard on the front brakes, the rear was not rebounding quick enough to keep traction and skitting all over the place ! Felt like i was doing stoppies every tight corner

But then who knows, it could be in the front

[racefactory]

It doesn't have to be bottoming.... just compressing too fast will have the same affect

could well be that then. Will try 1/4 turn out from full compression tomorrow.

[racefactory]

No way i could see RT letting the bike leave his place with a soft front end (comp damping) But could see him letting it leave with a little too much rear rebound for the hard braking ya doing (sounds like race track braking which he wouldn't have set it for), i found the same thing on the track, front was fine but because i was so hard on the front brakes, the rear was not rebounding quick enough to keep traction and skitting all over the place ! Felt like i was doing stoppies every tight corner

Yeah that's what it feels like mate.

rear shock rebounding too slowly in comparison with front compression speed would leave it in the air i suppose?

[Pussy]

Even a slightly too low oil level can do it.
I would suggest a talk to RT, and see what was done. You'll get hold of him at CKT tomorrow

[Pussy]

The fact that you have the comp adjusted almost right in makes me think the actual valve shimming spec may be a bit soft

[racefactory]

it's just the stock setting these bikes come with from factory though, almost right in in first place. I'll wind it up anyway tomorrow hopefully it does the trick.

mate does your gsxr750 require a lot of force ie. near locking point, before the rear wheel comes up?

[sinfull]

The fact that you have the comp adjusted almost right in makes me think the actual valve shimming spec may be a bit soft

That fact has me wondering if it aint too hard John, in which case wouldnt it create a lot of wieght transferring to the front and causing stoppies, might be that the comp too hard now ? winding it in further could make it worse !
OP says the sags are correct, which robert would have set for him, but still has an inch of travel left after hard braking, the zip tie be a good idea i recon to be sure

Still thinking rear rebound though

[Pussy]

mate does your gsxr750 require a lot of force ie. near locking point, before the rear wheel comes up?

Yes!
Although I can't fault the front end (or the rear, for that matter!).
I am fortunate to have Ohlins FGK cartridges in my forks. There has been a bit of experimenting gone on with valving specs in them.

[racefactory]

That fact has me wondering if it aint too hard John, in which case wouldnt it create a lot of wieght transferring to the front and causing stoppies, might be that the comp too hard now ? winding it in further could make it worse !
OP says the sags are correct, which robert would have set for him, but still has an inch of travel left after hard braking, the zip tie be a good idea i recon to be sure

Still thinking rear rebound though

The only reason i know there is near an inch remaining is because i use zip ties.

[Pussy]

That fact has me wondering if it aint too hard John, in which case wouldnt it create a lot of wieght transferring to the front and causing stoppies, might be that the comp too hard now ? winding it in further could make it worse !
OP says the sags are correct, which robert would have set for him, but still has an inch of travel left after hard braking, the zip tie be a good idea i recon to be sure

Still thinking rear rebound though

I hear you, Bill. But!.... the front pitching down too fast has the effect of transferring weight forward, too

[SPP]

Fishy

Could it possibly be that it's either a) diving too quick? or b) not diving enough?

I found that when the front was too soft it would dive fast and the rear would lift when braking very hard. When the front was too hard, braking distance got longer (because front tyre not getting compressed enough?) so I'd clamp the brakes harder causing the rear to lift slightly and the rear tyre to skim.

This may be a bit off but what about trying to soften the front just a touch (go out another 1/4 - 1/2 turn)

OEM is 1.5 turns out (from full hard) on a 06 636 I think. 1/4 turn out (from for hard) for bumpy roads sounds excessive but try it I suppose

[p.dath]

There's a theory that says in an emergancy braking situation you should initiate the braking action with the rear brake. It causes the rear to squat down somewhat thereby adding to the power imparted on the front.

+1. Check out my BLOG on emergency braking.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/entry.php/1453-Motorcycle-Emergency-Braking

I'd be tempted to talk to someone about your suspension, and make sure it is set appropriately for what you are wanting to get out of your bike.

[Nonbeliever]

front compression too soft
rear rebounding too quick
too low oil height in fork

or a combination of these

[schrodingers cat]

Of course the machine is the problem - change everything. Put the back wheel on the front and the front of the back.

Your brake application rate will be perfect and you are moving you weight rearward during braking to compensate for the load transfer aren't you?

But, of course its the machine...

[racefactory]

Of course the machine is the problem - change everything. Put the back wheel on the front and the front of the back.

Your brake application rate will be perfect and you are moving you weight rearward during braking to compensate for the load transfer aren't you?

But, of course its the machine...

Don't have to be a smart arse mate- definitely could be me... question for you on your high horse then, how do I stop it coming up under hard braking given everything i've already mentioned?

Weight is off of the bars going into the tank, body back, hitting rear brake first.

[Brian d marge]

without knowing the details , and struggling to understand the posts. from what I gather is that you feel like the bike is wanting to fire you over the handlebars under hard braking

ie the back is coming up too quick and the front is going down to quick . (too soft low speed compression and to quick rebound on rear ,)


there are plenty of how to's on this site ,

but in a nutshell get a bit of paper and a bit of road with a sweeper and a tight hairpin

set sags

1. laden
2. unladen ( if unladen sag incorrect , you probably have a lot of preload and need different springs )

set everything to the middle ( now that springs and sags are correct and you have binned that crappy stock shock that ,,,probably done 30 000 km )

if you have ohlins and they have high speed and low speed comp/ damping ,,, you are looking at the low speed

set comp until the bike doesn't pitch to quickly ... then your rebound at the rear slow that down so that the attitude of the bike is trim under hard braking .

Now go through the sweeper at a constant rate , the bike should track a constant radius all the way through , without and correction from you ,,, the front shouldn't drift out towards the outside or the bike shouldn't turn into the inside of the turn


If in doubt , set to the middle and leave well alone , All the people on KB who work with suspension are very accessible willing to help ,

kind regards Stephen

typed quickly so , someone else may elaborate a bit better than I

[MotoKuzzi]

My 2c worth.

Too much pre load on the front causing the front to sit lower, along with soft compression damping causing it to dive,

Too much preload at the rear making it sit up causing weight transfer to the front along with slow rebound on the back causing the rear tyre to lose contact.

Is the front lowered in the triple trees?

[Brian d marge]

My 2c worth.

Too much pre load on the front causing the front to sit lower, along with soft compression damping causing it to dive,

Too much preload at the rear making it sit up causing weight transfer to the front along with slow rebound on the back causing the rear tyre to lose contact.

Is the front lowered in the triple trees?

you might want to re think that one ,,,,, pre LOAD ,,a spring will want to return to its original position ,,, so if you screw the top down the spring will do its bit and the bike will rise ,,,until it tops out ,,,,,,,,

Stephen

[racefactory]

I'm not sure if they come like this stock but yes the forks are poking through about 7mm.

[MotoKuzzi]

you might want to re think that one ,,,,, pre LOAD ,,a spring will want to return to its original position ,,, so if you screw the top down the spring will do its bit and the bike will rise ,,,until it tops out ,,,,,,,,

Stephen

Apparently with my Guzzi front springs, increasing pre-load causes the forks to settle downwards when the spring shortens as it is compressed, don't know if this true of other bikes. The opposite occurs at the rear where winding on pre-load forces the eyes of the shock further apart. Be interested to hear if other bike front forks are the same.

[MotoKuzzi]

I'm not sure if they come like this stock but yes the forks are poking through about 7mm.

I have set my Guzzi up with the forks protruding about 15cm through the top triple trees to try and improve turn in on the corners, factory settings are at level. I believe it transfers weight to the front which I guess would affect the ability of your rear tyre to maintain contact under heavy braking? Interestingly I had the opposite problem with the Guzzi front dampers hydaulic locking and consequently only getting about 60% fork travel. Braking was horrendous. I've since fixed it and now get full travel under heavy braking and can just lift the rear If I give it all I can, but I stop a lot quicker with it set up this way. :yes:

[Brian d marge]

Apparently with my Guzzi front springs, increasing pre-load causes the forks to settle downwards when the spring shortens as it is compressed, don't know if this true of other bikes. The opposite occurs at the rear where winding on pre-load forces the eyes of the shock further apart. Be interested to hear if other bike front forks are the same.

and I doubt its true with Moto Guzzis either , having a cartridge style fork , you might be thinking of rebound , as winding that down will not allow the forks to return in time and pack down

Get a spring , squash it together , release one end, its the same inside a m/c front end

Stephen

[CHOPPA]

I havnt bothered to read the whole thread.... Put an indicator on the fork to see if it bottoming out under braking. Id prob just put in a firming spring if it were my bike but an easy way of sorta doing the same thing is by winding on more preload.

Another thing that you should consider is to buy some stomp grip. It goes on your tank so you can grip the bike hard with your knees, this does 2 things to help in your case.... 1st is that it keeps your ass back in the seat and weight over the rear wheel and secondly when your braking the load from your body is applied certrally on your bike rather then through your arms and directly into the forks.....

Id be looking at riding style before suspension

[Sensei]

If you are lucky enough to own the Race Tech's - " Motorcycle Suspenion Bible " then read though it & it will tell you just what you need to do with out guessing this or that , or Pm / E-mail Robert T & let him tell you ......

[racefactory]

As I've said, no weight on arms during braking, gripping tank, not bottoming out under braking- just about 1cm of travel left with hardest braking on average road.

Update- I think it was a combination of not enough preload and compression damping with the raised forks causing too much weight on the front.

Can get the tyre chirping now and the bike sits better under hard braking, noticeably better, but still the rear wheel comes up... guess that's just a sportbike geometry + sticky tyres for you. I thought it was possible to lock the tyre on all bikes.

[Brian d marge]

I havnt bothered to read the whole thread.... Put an indicator on the fork to see if it bottoming out under braking. Id prob just put in a firming spring if it were my bike but an easy way of sorta doing the same thing is by winding on more preload.

Another thing that you should consider is to buy some stomp grip. It goes on your tank so you can grip the bike hard with your knees, this does 2 things to help in your case.... 1st is that it keeps your ass back in the seat and weight over the rear wheel and secondly when your braking the load from your body is applied certrally on your bike rather then through your arms and directly into the forks.....

Id be looking at riding style before suspension

just IMHO


I try to use as little preload as I can , as well it stores energy in the spring , with must be controlled by damping ... ie the less energy I can add to the system the better , , so I try , as you pointed out , to get the springing right before I do anything else ..

I used to have an old guy here in Japan who would wind springs for .,... FREE ,,, but he has retired now ..so I must reach into pocket ,,,,:sick:

Stephen

[SPP]

... Check out my BLOG on emergency braking.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/entry.php/1453-Motorcycle-Emergency-Braking

...

You do like to research eh :yes: I even got 'round to reading it (eventually). Nice one, cheers. The AMSF approach seems to suit me best. I'll stick with that.

[CHOPPA]

As I've said, no weight on arms during braking, gripping tank, not bottoming out under braking- just about 1cm of travel left with hardest braking on average road.

Update- I think it was a combination of not enough preload and compression damping with the raised forks causing too much weight on the front.

Can get the tyre chirping now and the bike sits better under hard braking, noticeably better, but still the rear wheel comes up... guess that's just a sportbike geometry + sticky tyres for you. I thought it was possible to lock the tyre on all bikes.

I raced this model and the braking ability of the bike is amazing

[Shaun]

As I've said, no weight on arms during braking, gripping tank, not bottoming out under braking- just about 1cm of travel left with hardest braking on average road.

Update- I think it was a combination of not enough preload and compression damping with the raised forks causing too much weight on the front.

Can get the tyre chirping now and the bike sits better under hard braking, noticeably better, but still the rear wheel comes up... guess that's just a sportbike geometry + sticky tyres for you. I thought it was possible to lock the tyre on all bikes.




Too much oil in the forks can cause this also, as it will sit on a wall of fork oil that cannot go any where, causing what is known as Hydraulic locking, causing the rear to lift in the air

[pritch]

I'm not a suspension guru, but I have a book by a guy who might be...
And I haven't read the whole thread either.

But anyway he says,

"Rear wheel comes off the ground or slides - reduce rear rebound damping"

Sportbike Suspension Tuning, Andrew Trevitt, David Bull Publishing, 2008

[Robert Taylor]

Braking hard on my 06 ZX6R ( suspenders re gassed and oil changed by CKT) I am finding the rear is coming up too easily.

Just a hard ride around average surfaced country back roads under brakes and the back end is just flying in the air, even yawing around sideways on a corner entry. After a while I went to practice some emergency braking to see if I could improve things but no matter what posture, tank squeezing, weight distribution etc I used... I could not get even close to the front skidding/locking. This is something I have always been able to do on other bikes and told me I was at maximum braking ability of the tyres.

I want to know if there is something that can be done to give me more braking power should I need it in an emergency. The last thing I want to do is just fly over the handle bars into a car that's pulled out in front of me. It's assuring to know that I could lock the tyre should I want to.

ZXR250, VFR400 nc30 and other 90's sports bikes definitely stop quicker than this thing.

I am guessing a lot has to do with the CG since those 90s bikes are far lower (especially NC30s with the low V4 motor). Also those bikes dive a hell of a lot more. One thing is for sure- you have to put a hell of a lot of force into braking to have the rear lifting on those bikes and that's if you're front doesn't lock first!

Maybe there are some suspension adjustment techniques that could give more available braking power before the back wheel comes into the air?

Less preload to lower the bike?

More front preload and less rear preload to tip the bike slightly up?

I have a good sag setting so I'm not keen to rip into anything without reason.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the tyres have obviously got way more grip than I can make use of at the moment. It definitely does not stop as fast as a ZXR400 I can tell you that! (This is modern machinery- so I'm guessing it can out do a 90's sports bike with abused to fuck rear shock and forks on the brakes!)

Suspension specialists please share your knowledge!

Please remind me of the jobcard number and I will refresh myself what was done to these forks etc and then come up with a solution. Please PM me the number
There is also a possibility that the front fork oil level is slightly too high which has a similiar effect to it being too low...

[racefactory]

Guys, I solved it totally.

Found the front forks have been lowered heaps- protruding through the triple 14mm.

I put them right back up to the top... brakes HARD AS!!!

Turns in stiffer but all you need is flick the bars a little more. Braking is more important to me than a flicky, very light to turn in bike.

No wonder my preload was set right at near maximum for any improvment. Too much weight going to front end. The factory recommended settings actually make sense now. Can brake hard as with rear tracking on ground and can even lock the front tyre with weight off the bars.

[pritch]

Doncha just love a happy ending?

[schrodingers cat]

Don't have to be a smart arse mate- definitely could be me... question for you on your high horse then, how do I stop it coming up under hard braking given everything i've already mentioned?

Weight is off of the bars going into the tank, body back, hitting rear brake first.

Sure, since you ask so nicely. Lenghten your braking distance.

Because if the front tyre and brake package can generate sufficient force the load transfer creates an overtuning moment and levers the tyre off the ground.

At which point, if you're sensible you'll release some of that force and prevent the rear wheel being at the front. Strategies for releasing force are to pull harder on the front brake and cause the tyre to slip or more commonly release the brake lever a bit.

You could re-engineer your bike with a lower COG and much greater rearward bias but that has other implications.

Fiddling with the dampers will alter the timing of the chassis pitching but that won't alter the inevitable.

With your new super duper CKT front shocks it sounds like the front is working fine. Maybe too fine. Because what you said in your first post is that the front locking was how you guaged the grip of the tyre (half true - you recognise the point at which the tyre becomes oversaturated) but the way you are riding the bike puts too much emphasis on that strength.

Is that a clue? Did the problem exist before the service?

[racefactory]

Sure, since you ask so nicely. Lenghten your braking distance.

Because if the front tyre and brake package can generate sufficient force the load transfer creates an overtuning moment and levers the tyre off the ground.

At which point, if you're sensible you'll release some of that force and prevent the rear wheel being at the front. Strategies for releasing force are to pull harder on the front brake and cause the tyre to slip or more commonly release the brake lever a bit.

You could re-engineer your bike with a lower COG and much greater rearward bias but that has other implications.

Fiddling with the dampers will alter the timing of the chassis pitching but that won't alter the inevitable.

With your new super duper CKT front shocks it sounds like the front is working fine. Maybe too fine. Because what you said in your first post is that the front locking was how you guaged the grip of the tyre (half true - you recognise the point at which the tyre becomes oversaturated) but the way you are riding the bike puts too much emphasis on that strength.

Is that a clue? Did the problem exist before the service?

Use any way to put it that you want, simple fact is a skidding tyre is past it's limit of traction. If you want me to go into all the details: yes the susp had time to load the tyre, no it wasn't caused by too much force at the lever quickly... simply progressive braking till it passed what was probably just over 1g.

I said all the other older sports bikes i've ridden don't do this.

Put it this way... It was like riding a bicycle with a tall as seat, you brake and the rear wheel comes straight into the air. Lower that seat down now and it takes a massive longitudinal force to cause that. Therefore causing shorter stopping distance making more use of the tyre.

It's not about my braking, just the bikes attitude how it was set. If you could even fathom braking so hard you'd know what the difference was but unfortunately you seem to be happy playing lord of the keyboard no?

Thanks to all for sharing views... some of those things definitely helped.

[schrodingers cat]

Use any way to put it that you want, simple fact is a skidding tyre is past it's limit of traction. If you want me to go into all the details: yes the susp had time to load the tyre, no it wasn't caused by too much force at the lever quickly... simply progressive braking till it passed what was probably just over 1g.

I said all the other older sports bikes i've ridden don't do this.

Put it this way... It was like riding a bicycle with a tall as seat, you brake and the rear wheel comes straight into the air. Lower that seat down now and it takes MORE longitudinal force to cause that.

It's not about my braking, just the bikes attitude how it was set. If you could even fathom braking so hard you'd know what the difference was but unfortunately you seem to be happy playing lord of the keyboard no?

Ewwwww. Pissy two times in a row. Apply some methodology to the problem rather than asking random strangers for a band-aid.

What you're saying is you don't like the 'feel'
Was this why you got the forks played with in the first place?
Did the feeling exist prior to the service?

Comparing to earlier generation sportsbikes is apples and oranges.

Why not put different brake pads in the front? That will change the 'feel'

Anyway - signing off now. As a mighty lord of the keyboard I'm off to practiCe stoppies on the Mudbug. It is TE- AWESOME!

[racefactory]

Ewwwww. Pissy two times in a row. Apply some methodology to the problem rather than asking random strangers for a band-aid.

What you're saying is you don't like the 'feel'
Was this why you got the forks played with in the first place?
Did the feeling exist prior to the service?

Comparing to earlier generation sportsbikes is apples and oranges.

Why not put different brake pads in the front? That will change the 'feel'

Anyway - signing off now. As a mighty lord of the keyboard I'm off to practiCe stoppies on the Mudbug. It is TE- AWESOME!

Why make it so complicated ffs? When was I saying I don't like the brake feel, retard?

I just said the rear wheel is lifting into the air. Needed some suggestions. Problem solved- have a nice life.

[Robert Taylor]

Glad youve got it sorted and I guess theres a lesson in that we all come up with fixes on the basis of the info given! When in fact there was a fundamental issue ( fork position )and I guess everyone assumed it was in a regular place.
Dont worry about the negative vibes from some immediate past posts. While the guy made a couple of good points he didnt need to come across like he did.

[schrodingers cat]

Guys, I solved it totally.

Found the front forks have been lowered heaps- protruding through the triple 14mm.


Yay!

Just curious who managed to do that?
And why it took so long to spot?

[racefactory]

Glad youve got it sorted and I guess theres a lesson in that we all come up with fixes on the basis of the info given! When in fact there was a fundamental issue ( fork position )and I guess everyone assumed it was in a regular place.
Dont worry about the negative vibes from some immediate past posts. While the guy made a couple of good points he didnt need to come across like he did.

Hey Robert- for a road bike how much clearance do you think should be remaining before bottoming out? Currently with full braking on stock suspenders I'm left with just under 2cm of travel remaining which I thought was pretty good. enough to account for a bump or hole under full brakes maybe.

Also, I know preload doesn't alter the spring rate but I'm sure the bike really feels noticeable stiffer after winding it on? I thought it just moves the suspensions range of travel up and down/

[Robert Taylor]

Hey Robert- for a road bike how much clearance do you think should be remaining before bottoming out? Currently with full braking on stock suspenders I'm left with just under 2cm of travel remaining which I thought was pretty good. enough to account for a bump or hole under full brakes maybe.

Also, I know preload doesn't alter the spring rate but I'm sure the bike really feels noticeable stiffer after winding it on? I thought it just moves the suspensions range of travel up and down/

The amount of travel you have left will vary. If you ride the bike at Manfield you will use more travel as it is a braking circuit and has banked corners. If you ride on street circuits it will need the addition of a whole load of oil to increase the secondary air spring trapped compression ratio. Ordinary street riding that is not so aggressive will use rather less travel. In the wet you will use even less travel as there is less available grip so you will need a combination of lower oil level, less preload ( sometimes softer springs) and less aggressive compression damping.
Ordinarily I prefer to see 10mm of safety in case you run off line into an abrupt bump that will suck a little more travel.
Anyone that tells you ''my suspension is perfect''s talking through a hole in their head, its never perfect and can ALWAYS be better, for any given scenario.
Indeed more preload alters only spring force, not the rate. By winding on extra preload it will indeed feel firmer at the start of the stroke because you have increased spring force, but it still will act as a relatively soft spring later in the stroke.
Where springs are clearly too soft the instinct of the rider / tuner is often to keep winding in more preload, to the point where there is so much initial spring force the forks feel harsh at the top of their stroke but will still bottom out! The forks will also top out too readily and that really hurts edge grip when accelerating off turns. so then people slow the rebound down and because rebound cross talks with compression it hurts low speed compliance.
Often this is about a denial to spend money to actually do the job properly! Stronger linear wind springs in a rate suitable for rider height / weight and application will require a whole lot less preload meaning that there will actually be significantly less spring force than an overpreloaded and oversoft spring at the top of stroke! So the forks will actually be more supple and compliant in that important part of fork travel and there will be more mechanical grip because the forks will move! In the latter reaches of stroke there will be much much better brake dive control because the springs are firmer in rate and will therefore have more spring force later in their travel.
Hope this all helps.

[owner]

^^^ hahaha^^^ Har fuck I wish I understood suspension!!!
I read that all and now under stand why they call it a black art

I understood bits an pieces of it an your a ledgend for getting on here an tryin to educate the masses thanks RT

[gatch]

^^^ hahaha^^^ Har fuck I wish I understood suspension!!!
I read that all and now under stand why they call it a black art

I understood bits an pieces of it an your a ledgend for getting on here an tryin to educate the masses thanks RT

It all makes good sense. Now 2 stroke tuning is a black art..

[racefactory]

The amount of travel you have left will vary. If you ride the bike at Manfield you will use more travel as it is a braking circuit and has banked corners. If you ride on street circuits it will need the addition of a whole load of oil to increase the secondary air spring trapped compression ratio. Ordinary street riding that is not so aggressive will use rather less travel. In the wet you will use even less travel as there is less available grip so you will need a combination of lower oil level, less preload ( sometimes softer springs) and less aggressive compression damping.
Ordinarily I prefer to see 10mm of safety in case you run off line into an abrupt bump that will suck a little more travel.
Anyone that tells you ''my suspension is perfect''s talking through a hole in their head, its never perfect and can ALWAYS be better, for any given scenario.
Indeed more preload alters only spring force, not the rate. By winding on extra preload it will indeed feel firmer at the start of the stroke because you have increased spring force, but it still will act as a relatively soft spring later in the stroke.
Where springs are clearly too soft the instinct of the rider / tuner is often to keep winding in more preload, to the point where there is so much initial spring force the forks feel harsh at the top of their stroke but will still bottom out! The forks will also top out too readily and that really hurts edge grip when accelerating off turns. so then people slow the rebound down and because rebound cross talks with compression it hurts low speed compliance.
Often this is about a denial to spend money to actually do the job properly! Stronger linear wind springs in a rate suitable for rider height / weight and application will require a whole lot less preload meaning that there will actually be significantly less spring force than an overpreloaded and oversoft spring at the top of stroke! So the forks will actually be more supple and compliant in that important part of fork travel and there will be more mechanical grip because the forks will move! In the latter reaches of stroke there will be much much better brake dive control because the springs are firmer in rate and will therefore have more spring force later in their travel.
Hope this all helps.

That's really good, thanks.

[Brett]

You could just slow down Rossi :lol:

If there is something wrong with his riding style or more likely the set up of the bike causing rear instability when under braking then I think that "slowing down" is really not the focus. If I am riding on really cheap, crap, worn out tyres and my bike is slipping around everywhere, then I don't think slowing down is the ultimate solution...fixing the problem is.