Interesting article on traffic lights

[rok-the-boat]

http://mises.org/daily/4745

According to Quinn, many who vehemently oppose virtually every sort for government regulation and intervention often concede that regulations are indeed necessary for traffic control. The long-held belief is that, in the absence of road signs and traffic lights, traffic would be at a perpetual standstill, if not worse. Quinn writes that videos of real-world cases of complete traffic deregulation conclusively demonstrate that roadway anarchy is the ideal situation for both drivers and pedestrians. He uses praxeology to explain the seemingly odd phenomenon of roadways that were once the commuters' nightmare becoming uncongested through deregulation. The evidence Quinn proffers to support his call for immediate removal of all traffic lights and signs is truly astounding and worth viewing — especially if you happen to be stuck in traffic and have a smartphone.

[george formby]

http://mises.org/daily/4745

According to Quinn, many who vehemently oppose virtually every sort for government regulation and intervention often concede that regulations are indeed necessary for traffic control. The long-held belief is that, in the absence of road signs and traffic lights, traffic would be at a perpetual standstill, if not worse. Quinn writes that videos of real-world cases of complete traffic deregulation conclusively demonstrate that roadway anarchy is the ideal situation for both drivers and pedestrians. He uses praxeology to explain the seemingly odd phenomenon of roadways that were once the commuters' nightmare becoming uncongested through deregulation. The evidence Quinn proffers to support his call for immediate removal of all traffic lights and signs is truly astounding and worth viewing — especially if you happen to be stuck in traffic and have a smartphone.

Apparently they are conducting a test in a Dutch city which demonstrates exactly this. No road markings, traffic lights, pedestrian crossings, nuthin. The road users including cyclists & pedestrians are far more careful & respectful of each other so traffic flow is better & accident rates have plummeted. Go figure

[Ronin]

Bloody good post that. I watched his videos and bugger me if the concepts don't make sense. Once you get past all the wanky words that is. How often has someone come back from the middle east or asian country laughing about no traffic control and the fact that it just works. In fact, in vietnam I have heard of tourists being trained to just walk out into traffic. If they bugger around and try to work out what the traffic is doing they are unsafe, walk out and the traffic takes them into account.

[rastuscat]

I'm considering campaigning to have most stop signs removed from the town I am living in.

Having so many stop signs that people don't stop at actually increases the risk at the stop signs that actually need to be stopped at, by creating an apathetic attitude toward the important ones.

This is part of my heartfelt desire to remove as many traffic signs as possible, given that inflicting more and more signs on drivers just makes the important ones disappear in a sea of visual clutter.

Interesting concepts from the Martin bloke.

Donuts.

[Bassmatt]

I'm considering campaigning to have most stop signs removed from the town I am living in.

Having so many stop signs that people don't stop at actually increases the risk at the stop signs that actually need to be stopped at, by creating an apathetic attitude toward the important ones.

This is part of my heartfelt desire to remove as many traffic signs as possible, given that inflicting more and more signs on drivers just makes the important ones disappear in a sea of visual clutter.

Interesting concepts from the Martin bloke.

Donuts.

I have had a couple of close calls with cars nearly rear ending me at stop signs because "nobody actually stops mate". Well i do, and it bothers me the amount of cars(mostly) that I am following that just go straight through stop signs.

[scumdog]

How about '4-way stops' as per US?

Worked while I was there.

But then most of their driver behaviour was a light year ahead of NZs...

[Pascal]

But then most of their driver behaviour was a light year ahead of NZs...

Yeah, that's the bit that makes me think this won't work. It seems as if the vast majority of roadusers in NZ drives / rides with a big old "Fuck you" chip on their shoulder.

I can't see any form of deregulation working here with the general NZ attitude towards other road users.

[piston broke]

get rid of the lights,
put in traffic islands.

[swbarnett]

How about '4-way stops' as per US?
You don't actually need the signs. The give way to right rule is enough. It's like this on all minor crossroads and works well. They also have the


But then most of their driver behaviour was a light year ahead of NZs...
Maybe that's because they're treated as if they have a brain and are expected to use it.

[swbarnett]

get rid of the lights,
put in traffic islands.
Get rid of the lights, yes, but be very careful as to where roundabouts are placed (I presume that's what you mean?). The trouble with roundabouts is that they only work when the traffic flow is even from all directions (or very light). There's a four-way roundabout where Link Drive hits Sunnynook Rd. that often has heavy traffic on Link Drive and one direction of Sunnynook Rd. The traffic on Link Drive flows through for ages while that on Sunnynook Rd. has to wait for ever. There's nobody coming from the other two directions to break up the flow.

[mattian]

How about '4-way stops' as per US?

Worked while I was there.

But then most of their driver behaviour was a light year ahead of NZs...

Thats because over there you get hog-tied tazered for jay walking.....lol
I watched an episode of cops last night. JEEEeezus! they dont take any shit over there.

[scumdog]

Maybe that's because they're treated as if they have a brain and are expected to use it.

But..but..NZ drivers on the whole DON'T have a brain and are treated accordingly....

[Toaster]

But..but..NZ drivers on the whole DON'T have a brain and are treated accordingly....

Exactly. Crashes big and small just keep on a happening, road signs or not.... some people will always be stupid.

It's why we have prisons.





And the green party.

[fliplid]

It's why we have prisons.

And the green party.
Don't go there!

[swbarnett]

But..but..NZ drivers on the whole DON'T have a brain and are treated accordingly....
There is a difference between someone's potential intelligence and that which is displayed on a daily basis. The average NZ driver is quite capable of intelligent driving. However, they are treated as if they do not have a brain and so that's how they act.

It is a trait of basic human nature that people will act in response to how they are treated. If we expect drivers to think then the average apparent intelligence of drivers will rise. If we tell them not to think by trying to do all the thinking for them then the average apparent intelligence of drivers will fall. By taking away signs and traffic lights drivers will be forced to think more (those that don't will most likely not last long). Because of this, drivers will be more capable and you will get less dumb driving (cutting blind corners for example) because they are more able to think.

[swbarnett]

some people will always be stupid.
Very true. And ALL people will be stupid SOME of the time (myself included). But if we keep dwelling on this fact people will be even more stupid because they are made to feel less intelligent than they really are.

I have heard it said that any given country has the Government that it deserves. I think the same can be said for drivers. If we stopped trying to create roads that someone with the brain of a flea could navigate in near total safety and rather told drivers that we expect them to think for themselves we would have much better drivers.

[bogan]

Having so many stop signs that people don't stop at actually increases the risk at the stop signs that actually need to be stopped at, by creating an apathetic attitude toward the important ones.

very much agree with that, it applies to double yellows on highways as well.

[Highlander]

get rid of the lights,
put in traffic islands.

Or be like Tauranga and put traffic lights at the round abouts. Confusing. :facepalm:

[Berries]

I'm considering campaigning to have most stop signs removed from the town I am living in.

Having so many stop signs that people don't stop at actually increases the risk at the stop signs that actually need to be stopped at, by creating an apathetic attitude toward the important ones.
In my experience the majority of stop signs do not meet the visibility criteria required for their installation and they should therefore be give way signs. This is what causes the lack of compliance with them. Unfortunately the ones that don't get complied with, the ones that don't meet that criteria, are generally the ones that get enforced. Don't you/they call them fishing holes ?

We would all be better off if stop signs were only used where visibility was so restricted that you had to come to a stop before proceeding, which is what the requirements are meant to achieve, but they get put in for all kinds of reasons these days, you'd be lucky to get any pulled out.

[rastuscat]

In my experience the majority of stop signs do not meet the visibility criteria required for their installation and they should therefore be give way signs. This is what causes the lack of compliance with them. Unfortunately the ones that don't get complied with, the ones that don't meet that criteria, are generally the ones that get enforced. Don't you/they call them fishing holes

Interesting. I agree with a lot of what you have said here.

It's my understanding (stand to be corrected) that for a stop sign to be installed there has to be less than 9 metres of clear visibility for each 10km/h of the crossing traffic i.e. in a 50 km/h area, there needs to be 45 metres or less of clear visibility for a stop to be installed. In a 70 km/h area it would be 63 clear metres.

Remember that one one side of an intersection you might have lots of visibility, but on the other you might have less than the standard. I laugh when I see intersections with a stop sign on one side, and a give way on the other. It's interesting to sit and watch the confusion reign. Theres one in Reefton, another at Chaneys Corner. I'm sure there are others. Decent folk regularly sit and wait while they sort out who has priority. In fact, maybe that's the answer, make things so confusing that everyone actually stops to work it out :)

Trouble we have is the looked but failed to see crashes. People frequently crash at stop signs and give ways into vehicles they didn't see coming. It's a whole other topic. Our theory is that if people actually comply with their requirement at stop signs, they will have a smaller chance of looking and not seeing, as they have taken the time to stop and have a decent look, instead of just a rolling glance.

Still, I really think we have far too many regulatory signs. Too many for the good of our road safety.

Donuts.

[Bikemad]

yeah...........get rid of the lights and signs............these guys dont seem to need em........

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[Scuba_Steve]

guess this is all part of easier da road stupider da driver. But I have seen studies previous which show to in general traffic lights are the slowest option for moving traffic & they only "appear" to work as they breakup the traffic by backing it further out

[Toaster]

Very true. And ALL people will be stupid SOME of the time (myself included). But if we keep dwelling on this fact people will be even more stupid because they are made to feel less intelligent than they really are.

I have heard it said that any given country has the Government that it deserves. I think the same can be said for drivers. If we stopped trying to create roads that someone with the brain of a flea could navigate in near total safety and rather told drivers that we expect them to think for themselves we would have much better drivers.

Great post. Totally agreed.

[Berries]

It's my understanding (stand to be corrected) that for a stop sign to be installed there has to be less than 9 metres of clear visibility for each 10km/h of the crossing traffic i.e. in a 50 km/h area, there needs to be 45 metres or less of clear visibility for a stop to be installed. In a 70 km/h area it would be 63 clear metres.
Close. The measurement is taken 9m back from the limit lines and is 1.2 x the speed that 85% of vehicles are doing. So in a 50km/h area with a 55km/h 85th percentile you are looking at 65m. In a 70 it would be over 80m.


Remember that one one side of an intersection you might have lots of visibility, but on the other you might have less than the standard. I laugh when I see intersections with a stop sign on one side, and a give way on the other. It's interesting to sit and watch the confusion reign. Theres one in Reefton, another at Chaneys Corner. I'm sure there are others.
I complained about one at the end of the street I used to live on. Stop one side, give way the other, nobody knew what to do. Council made them both stops and lo and behold, the one where you can see for miles doesn't get complied with. Another shit NZ specific rule anyway. Here you are expecting people to look at the back of the sign on the opposite side of the road to see if it differs to the one on your side. FFS. Some people can't even see the sign on their own side.

[Bassmatt]

Interesting. I agree with a lot of what you have said here.

It's my understanding (stand to be corrected) that for a stop sign to be installed there has to be less than 9 metres of clear visibility for each 10km/h of the crossing traffic i.e. in a 50 km/h area, there needs to be 45 metres or less of clear visibility for a stop to be installed. In a 70 km/h area it would be 63 clear metres.


Still, I really think we have far too many regulatory signs. Too many for the good of our road safety.

Donuts.

There are three stop signs within 2ks of each other round my parts that would have at least 50% more than the required visibility. All three have accidents on a fairly regular basis because everybody is too bloody impatient. How many times have you been alone on a road and someone has pulled out in front of you when they only had to wait a few seconds for you to go past.

[Bassmatt]

very much agree with that, it applies to double yellows on highways as well.

Couldnt agree more. 2k stretches of clear road with double yellows? Then you get places where they could be justified and they dont have them.
There has been so much road in the BOP double yellowed recently that I wonder if the plan is to double yellow everything. That would be wonderful considering all the people who do 80kph or less on the open road around here.

[Mully Clown]

. I laugh when I see intersections with a stop sign on one side, and a give way on the other. It's interesting to sit and watch the confusion reign. Theres one in Reefton, another at Chaneys Corner. I'm sure there are others.

It's more confusing with traffic lights. Turning left on a green light while giving way to the right turning traffic on the other side. Who have a red arrow which you don't know about.

[superman]

Thats because over there you get hog-tied tazered for jay walking.....lol
I watched an episode of cops last night. JEEEeezus! they dont take any shit over there.

Mate Cops Uncut is just terrifying. Family get pulled over because the cops thought they were robbers and they're all outside of the car handcuffed on their knees. Then their little dog comes out of the car, looked like a little Yorkshire Terrier and an officer shotgunned it straight in the face.

All on camera, and as you can imagine how distraught the innocent family was. Officer got off too, "dog singled me out for attack sir". :facepalm:

I'd much rather put up with the bad drivers in NZ than have to live in a crazy police state. :yes:

[scumdog]

Mate Cops Uncut is just terrifying. Family get pulled over because the cops thought they were robbers and they're all outside of the car handcuffed on their knees. Then their little dog comes out of the car, looked like a little Yorkshire Terrier and an officer shotgunned it straight in the face.

All on camera, and as you can imagine how distraught the innocent family was. Officer got off too, "dog singled me out for attack sir". :facepalm:

I'd much rather put up with the bad drivers in NZ than have to live in a crazy police state. :yes:


WTF: Those drivers can kill you.....

[Ocean1]

I think the traffic lights thing is old news. I remember reading a thesis near 20 years ago that found that fatalities rose on most intersections where lights were installed.

[BMWST?]

You don't actually need the signs. The give way to right rule is enough. It's like this on all minor crossroads and works well. They also have the


Maybe that's because they're treated as if they have a brain and are expected to use it.

no..its an inbred respect for someone who may carry.....

[scumdog]

I think the traffic lights thing is old news. I remember reading a thesis near 20 years ago that found that fatalities rose on most intersections where lights were installed.

Yep, fuckin' red light runners, ass-holes....

[steve_t]

Yep, fuckin' red light runners, ass-holes....

With approx 8% of males being red/green or totally colourblind, persisting with the current colour combination for lights seems a bit crazy

[scumdog]

With approx 8% of males being red/green or totally colourblind, persisting with the current colour combination for lights seems a bit crazy

Yup, they put the different colours in different postions on each set of lights so ya never know if the red's at the top or the bottom....yeah right!:rolleyes::crazy:

Ya know, SOMEBODY somewhere will believe ya steve_t!

[steve_t]

Yup, they put the different colours in different postions on each set of lights so ya never know if the red's at the top or the bottom....yeah right!:rolleyes::crazy:

Ya know, SOMEBODY somewhere will believe ya steve_t!

Yeah, but it's still gotta be easier for a colourblind person to see a different colour than have to look at the position of the light in the tree. I mean, that's the idea of having different colours right? I'm not saying they can't get by, I'm saying it could be easier. Meh, I'm not colourblind so it doesn't even affect me :innocent:

[Ocean1]

Yep, fuckin' red light runners, ass-holes....

Hard to know which is more worthy of a darwin award, the one that ignores the red or the one that believes the green.

I'm sorta in the treat them like fuckwits and that's how they'll behave camp. And damn, the sheer quantity of spurious signage makes for quality fuckwits.

[Berries]

With approx 8% of males being red/green or totally colourblind, persisting with the current colour combination for lights seems a bit crazy
I am quite badly colour blind, and work on top, middle and bottom lights rather than going by the colours. Worked ok until I lived in Wellington for a while and used to ride out on that section to the Hutt to go over the hill. Some of the traffic lights are mounted back to back and have more than three aspects. So in one direction the opposing signal head is one aspect higher meaning that on the approach the red light isn't at the top of the signal head shape, it is down one, if you get what I mean, so I took it as the middle light. Which it wasn't. Bloody confusing. In the end I gave up stopping for any of them. Found I blended in with the locals better.

[rastuscat]

For the record, I'm the team leader of a group of Popos that enforce the traffic light rules in Chch.

We stake intersections out, and write tickets for those who break the rules.

One Popo (normally me) sits in a position to view the offences, then radios the Popos who are positioned to stop the offenders and write the tickets.

As a result, I am in a strong position to write about how people who have driven through late yellow or red lights who deny having done so. I get told at least 2 or 3 times each morning rush hour that what I have seen didn't happen.

Like, I see someone drive through a red light, then have the driver tell the ticketing officer that it was orange, or in some cases, green.

Until we get out of our mental state of psychological denial, traffic light crashes will just keep on happening.

Donuts.

[steve_t]

For the record, I'm the team leader of a group of Popos that enforce the traffic light rules in Chch.

We stake intersections out, and write tickets for those who break the rules.

One Popo (normally me) sits in a position to view the offences, then radios the Popos who are positioned to stop the offenders and write the tickets.

As a result, I am in a strong position to write about how people who have driven through late yellow or red lights who deny having done so. I get told at least 2 or 3 times each morning rush hour that what I have seen didn't happen.

Like, I see someone drive through a red light, then have the driver tell the ticketing officer that it was orange, or in some cases, green.

Until we get out of our mental state of psychological denial, traffic light crashes will just keep on happening.

Donuts.

Do they honestly seem to believe it was green or orange, or are they just trying to scam out of a ticket. I guess, like the stop sign issue, a little video camera footage would quickly shut them up :shutup:

[rastuscat]

We looked at video for all traffic light offences, but it would take about 8 cameras to cover every phase at one intersection.

The problem with video too is that it sets a standard. If I turn up at court with video evidence of every offence we see, that would raise the JPs expectations for every other offence.

Like, I video an offence, and turn up to court. The JPs watch the video, and convict the driver. The next week I see someone riding a motorbike without wearing a helmet, so I write him a ticket. He defends it, so I trundle off to court. The guy claims that I am a liar, and that he was wearing a helmet. He tells the JPs that I have a quota, and that I made the offence up so I get a free toaster at the end of the performance year. Next thing, the JPs ask to see the video of the offence..................which doesn't exist.

That's the problem. Video is great evidence, but it's not possible to video every offence we see. If we use it too much, we set an evidential standard, that detracts from the basic form of evidence that has existed for decades ; a cop seeing something, telling the court what he saw, and the court then making a decision based on the facts they accept and the credibility of the parties..

Don't think video is the panacea for all.

[Scuba_Steve]

He tells the JPs that I have a quota, and that I made the offence up so I get a free toaster at the end of the performance year.


:shit: They haven't dropped your quota bonuses from donuts to toasters have they???

[superman]

Don't think video is the panacea for all.

Hood mounted camera would be a gold mine of evidence though :)

[rastuscat]

Hood mounted camera would be a gold mine of evidence though :)

Less than half of our offences are detected from a car. We do lots of checkpoints and use patrol bikes.

My patrol bike is going to look really silly with a hood fitted to it.

Tee hee.

[rastuscat]

:shit: They haven't dropped your quota bonuses from donuts to toasters have they???

I requested an iPad for this years iPerformance iTarget. My iBoss iRefused. He has too many iToasters left over from last iYear coz we didn't write enough iTickets.

iDonuts.

[Usarka]

During the last major auckland power outage (about 4 years ago maybe?) they were predicting traffic chaos because lights were out. But it was the quickest commute ever and auckland drivers were actually considerate.

[rastuscat]

During the last major auckland power outage (about 4 years ago maybe?) they were predicting traffic chaos because lights were out. But it was the quickest commute ever and auckland drivers were actually considerate.

Oh for heavens sake, don't be some damn sensible.

[MSTRS]

That's the problem. Video is great evidence, but it's not possible to video every offence we see. If we use it too much, we set an evidential standard, that detracts from the basic form of evidence that has existed for decades ; a cop seeing something, telling the court what he saw, and the court then making a decision based on the facts they accept and the credibility of the parties..



Liking your earlier suggestion of removing much of the plethora of traffic signs...:niceone:
But the above...what is wrong with holding to a standard of proof? And if it takes video to provide that proof for some offences, then why not all? We know that the defendant's word may usually be distrusted, but cops are not above a little creative accounting at times, either.

[bogan]

As a result, I am in a strong position to write about how people who have driven through late yellow or red lights who deny having done so.

How late is a late yellow anyway? Sometimes I go when it's a bit iffy, and barely make it to the other side of the lights before it goes red (so still ages before the other vehicle get the green), that count? Course sometimes when I do that I see in my rear view someone else has come through too, pretty sure they count :bleh:

[Usarka]

Oh for heavens sake, don't be some damn sensible.

The funniest thing was all the motorists getting ticketed for running red lights. The Auckland coppas were running the first and only red-light running sting that day and it was playing havoc with their quotas!

[rastuscat]

Liking your earlier suggestion of removing much of the plethora of traffic signs...:niceone:
But the above...what is wrong with holding to a standard of proof? And if it takes video to provide that proof for some offences, then why not all? We know that the defendant's word may usually be distrusted, but cops are not above a little creative accounting at times, either.

Quite agree. In an ideal world there would be video of every offence. Hard to argue with that. Trouble is, we don't work in an ideal world.

Here's a challenge. Leave your office some day and on the drive home, try to look for the offences we deal with. Seatbelts, cellphones, unsafe lane changes, following too close, crashing stop signs, ignoring traffic lights. Then ask yourself why a cop would have to make tickets up, when there are so many basic offences being committed all the time every day.

I seriously doubt that I'll ever be out of a job.

[MSTRS]

Here's a challenge. Leave your office some day and on the drive home, try to look for the offences we deal with. Seatbelts, cellphones, unsafe lane changes, following too close, crashing stop signs, ignoring traffic lights. Then ask yourself why a cop would have to make tickets up, when there are so many basic offences being committed all the time every day.

I seriously doubt that I'll ever be out of a job.

Oh, I see that shit every time I go out on the road. Day, night, work, leisure, car, bike.
But I often see a cop in the vicinity also...must be concentrating on his donut. Cos the dickheads go on their merry way, unfettered by that awkward scrap of paper.

[rastuscat]

How late is a late yellow anyway? Sometimes I go when it's a bit iffy, and barely make it to the other side of the lights before it goes red (so still ages before the other vehicle get the green), that count? Course sometimes when I do that I see in my rear view someone else has come through too, pretty sure they count :bleh:

In Chch the yellow light are almost all 4 seconds long. At 50km/h you are travelling at 13.7 metres per second. So if you cross the limit line (the fat painted one at the start of the intersection, 90 degrees to the direction of travel) when the light goes from yellow to red, you are over 50 metres back when it went green to yellow. It takes maybe 30 metres to stop from 50 km/h on a dry road, assuming 50km/h and a reaction time of 1.5 seconds.

That means that if you are just over the limit lines at the yellow/red change, you have at least 20 metres of extra time to have stopped. The yellow light law requires you to stop if you can do so safely before entering the controlled area, being the area past the limit line.

So, if you are just (1 or 2 car lengths, our basic yellow light standard) over the limit line when the light goes red, you had plenty of time to stop on the yellow. It's basic physics, time and distance.

So when people tell me they couldn't stop, having crossed the lines on the yellow/red change, I can only assume they are a totally incompetent driver who deserves the ticket they are getting.

The standard reason for not stopping was that the car behind them was forcing them to keep going. So they went through the traffic light in the interests of road safety. Yeah right.

[steve_t]

In Chch the yellow light are almost all 4 seconds long.

Is the duration of the yellow determined by anything such as the size of the intersection?

[rastuscat]

Oh, I see that shit every time I go out on the road. Day, night, work, leisure, car, bike.

I have been at the enforcement game for 22 years now, and even I can't see every offence that is ever committed in front of me. I go out looking for seatbelts, cellphones, traffic lights. I can only look for so much. Someone standing next to me might see totally different things, as they have their mind focussed on different things to what mine is.

Yes, people often do things in front of cops and nothing happens. It may be the bag of donuts on the Popos lap, but it might just be that he/she isn't all seeing.

[bogan]

In Chch the yellow light are almost all 4 seconds long. At 50km/h you are travelling at 13.7 metres per second. So if you cross the limit line (the fat painted one at the start of the intersection, 90 degrees to the direction of travel) when the light goes from yellow to red, you are over 50 metres back when it went green to yellow. It takes maybe 30 metres to stop from 50 km/h on a dry road, assuming 50km/h and a reaction time of 1.5 seconds.

That means that if you are just over the limit lines at the yellow/red change, you have at least 20 metres of extra time to have stopped. The yellow light law requires you to stop if you can do so safely before entering the controlled area, being the area past the limit line.

So, if you are just (1 or 2 car lengths, our basic yellow light standard) over the limit line when the light goes red, you had plenty of time to stop on the yellow. It's basic physics, time and distance.

So when people tell me they couldn't stop, having crossed the lines on the yellow/red change, I can only assume they are a totally incompetent driver who deserves the ticket they are getting.

The standard reason for not stopping was that the car behind them was forcing them to keep going. So they went through the traffic light in the interests of road safety. Yeah right.

sounds like a good metric to judge by to me, and have quite a bit more than two car length behind me whenever I see it go to red, so I shall carry on.

We must go forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

[Ocean1]

cops are not above a little creative accounting at times, either.

... in much the same way that the ocean is not above the sky.

[scumdog]

but cops are not above a little creative accounting at times, either.

I know what ya mean.

"OK, you weren't wearing your seatbelt but I'll ignore the fact ya ain't got your licence with ya"

"OK, you were doing 117kph but I'll ignore the fact your rego is nearly a month out"

"OK, your headlight is out but I'll give you a complaince ticket for that - and ignore that you didn't indicate at that last intersection"

Bloody dishonest creative arseholes, ain't we?

[Berries]

Is the duration of the yellow determined by anything such as the size of the intersection?
It should be. Then there is the added time where all of the lights are red. It is practically impossible to cross an intersection legally, ie at the end of the green phase or just as they change to amber/yellow, and get hit by crossing traffic that pulled away on their own green.

[scumdog]

It should be. Then there is the added time where all of the lights are red. It is practically impossible to cross an intersection legally, ie at the end of the green phase or just as they change to amber/yellow, and get hit by crossing traffic that pulled away on their own green.

True.

But those who say "It JUST went yellow as I got there" won't agree....losers.

[Mully Clown]

How many people jump the light just before it turns green?

[rastuscat]

It should be. Then there is the added time where all of the lights are red. It is practically impossible to cross an intersection legally, ie at the end of the green phase or just as they change to amber/yellow, and get hit by crossing traffic that pulled away on their own green.

The yellows in Chch are based on 4 seconds. That's the 50 km/h ones.

The ones on our arterials are longer, say 4.5 to 4.8. The main road ones are 4.8.

The only one less than 4 is Pilgrim Place. It's off Moorhouse Ave, it's only 100 metres long, and nobody gets to 50 on it. That's 3 seconds.

It is speed related, but also crash related. Don't forget that there is normally an all-red dwell before the next phase starts.

And yet we still have crashes where both parities claim to have had green lights.

Yeah right.

[rok-the-boat]

Hard to know which is more worthy of a darwin award, the one that ignores the red or the one that believes the green.

I'm sorta in the treat them like fuckwits and that's how they'll behave camp. And damn, the sheer quantity of spurious signage makes for quality fuckwits.

Spot on - I never trust green, even more so as a pedestrian.

[rok-the-boat]

How many people jump the light just before it turns green?

Now that is the quickest way to hell, literally.

[bogan]

The yellows in Chch are based on 4 seconds. That's the 50 km/h ones.

The ones on our arterials are longer, say 4.5 to 4.8. The main road ones are 4.8.

The only one less than 4 is Pilgrim Place. It's off Moorhouse Ave, it's only 100 metres long, and nobody gets to 50 on it. That's 3 seconds.

It is speed related, but also crash related. Don't forget that there is normally an all-red dwell before the next phase starts.

And yet we still have crashes where both parities claim to have had green lights.

Yeah right.

then theres the likes of the one before the welli motorway, on a hundy kmh section of road, hope thats longer than 4 seconds!


Now that is the quickest way to hell, literally.

I sometime start moving just before the green, but I make damn sure the other guys are not even there or well stopped, do the same checks if it goes green while filtering through. Once I had almost started to move on a green, then noticed some people mover come flying through the rad and turn right across my nose, highlights the benefits of double checking!

[sinned]

then theres the likes of the one before the welli motorway, on a hundy kmh section of road, hope thats longer than 4 seconds!

I sometime start moving just before the green, but I make damn sure the other guys are not even there or well stopped, do the same checks if it goes green while filtering through. Once I had almost started to move on a green, then noticed some people mover come flying through the rad and turn right across my nose, highlights the benefits of double checking!
I never start moving until it is green and I have done a final fraction of a second check each way. If you move and then have to stop there is a high chance of the vehicle behind running up your rear.

That wellington set of lights - I slow down to around 90 clicks if the green is stale.

[scumdog]

I never start moving until it is green and I have done a final fraction of a second check each way. If you move and then have to stop there is a high chance of the vehicle behind running up your rear.

That wellington set of lights - I slow down to around 90 clicks if the green is stale.

Lights?
Traffic lights?

We banned traffic-lights in Riviera of the South because they were an absolute frippery...and a waste of time.:bleh:

[Berries]

We banned traffic-lights in Riviera of the South because they were an absolute frippery...and a waste of time.:bleh:
And the locals kept nicking the bulbs for the roller disco.

[superman]

How many people jump the light just before it turns green?

Driving at night time through Auckland is hell. During the day it's bad enough but at least your stopping at reds for a reason (traffic). At night I have no idea why they don't all flash orange to indicate give way rules when there is no traffic. You sit waiting for ghosts to appear, fucking ridiculous living in an age where I can talk to someone on the other side of the world yet I have to bloody wait for some loony light to change to tell me when I'm allowed to go. My brain functions perfectly fine (at least to my knowledge) and I can see I'm safe to drive anyway you BASTARD COUNCIL!

I swear they just want my brain to fizzle

So on a night such as that, yes quite often beat the green altogether, if I see no car anywhere. Especially a little parked popo :Police:. During the day I fiddle around in my car at a red. If I gota wait I might as well do something, often sending a txt. As long as I know the traffic lights aren't going to change for a while, wonder if a cop would ticket me for txting at a red... But usually don't move till green. :niceone:

On bike at a red it's good fun to stare down the driver who just cut you off. Even more fun to put down your stand and get off the bike, just to stretch :bleh:

[Mully Clown]

I hate it when the green is too short. Manchester/Moorhouse corner this evening, turning right into Manchester St. I'm sitting there with a green light and a red arrow. Then the red arrow disappears, I take off and within 1.5s or so the whole lot has gone orange. Should've left the red arrow up the whole time.

[idleidolidyll]

I think in Holland pedestrians are legally deemed always in the right regardless of road markings or the lack thereof.

Therefore, if a car hits a pedestrian: the driver is presumed guilty until theybprove themselves innocent.

That should be the case for trucks down through vans, cars, motorbikes, bicycles and pedestrians in that order of liability

[rastuscat]

I hate it when the green is too short. Manchester/Moorhouse corner this evening, turning right into Manchester St. I'm sitting there with a green light and a red arrow. Then the red arrow disappears, I take off and within 1.5s or so the whole lot has gone orange. Should've left the red arrow up the whole time.

The length of phasing is controlled by a computer sitting in the council building on Hereford Street.

Factors deciding phase length include time of day, demand (as determined by in-road sensors), donut sales, quota demands and luck.

I guess there must have been a dount sale in the square, and the lights changed to let the Popos get there for their quota.

[Mully Clown]

The length of phasing is controlled by a computer sitting in the council building on Hereford Street.

Factors deciding phase length include time of day, demand (as determined by in-road sensors), donut sales, quota demands and luck.

I guess there must have been a dount sale in the square, and the lights changed to let the Popos get there for their quota.

The popo was coming straight through the intersection from the other side. Thankfully I stopped for the orange before I had gone right out into the intersection.