Safer roads and cars

[awa355]

According to the AA, we need better roads and more modern cars to drive, then the road toll will drop.

Any improvement to the roads can't help but be better.

I have reservations about the car flleet making us all better drivers tho' Would I be a better driver for being in a 2010 model car compared to my 2001 car?? I doubt my driving would be any different.

Sure the brakes, suspension etc would be in better shape than my current car, but ultimately it is my mental atitude / skills to driving that determines if I have an accident. A newer car probably helps your chances of survival, but that is after the accident has occured.

A high powered sports bike would be lovely, but I know I'd be riding a lot faster than the old mid size single banger I ride now.

As far as cars go, the latest technology can not substitute for dumb practices. Reality shows that new cars get driven into accidents as easily as older cars.

What do you think? Would a new Ducati make you a better rider, or just a faster one?

[blackdog]

a new ducati would make me more attractive...

[Mully]

I reckon new technology (ABS, Airbags, etc) has made more of a difference to the road toll than the "Speed Kills" bollocks that TPTB spout.

[bogan]

There are some theories (maybe studies too) showing that as the safety of a situation increases, so do the risks people take. In saying that though, people will always overstep the boundaries, and safer roads and cars will lower the damage to those that do. Imo they can start by ripping up dangerous roadside furniture.

[BMWST?]

2010 car will have traction control,abs ,etc etc etc,much harder to have a "loss of control" accident,but wont help crossing the cl accident

[steve_t]

ESP (or ESC or VDC or whatever you want to call it) is a very good feature for those change in road surface moments or emergency evasive manouvres though the 'hardcore car enthusiasts' seem to normally turn it off anyway

[Mully]

2010 car will have traction control,abs ,etc etc etc,much harder to have a "loss of control" accident,but wont help crossing the cl accident

And as a rule, the new car is more likely to save your arse cf with some old rustbucket.

[HQfiend]

And as a rule, the new car is more likely to save your arse cf with some old rustbucket.


Also more likely to lead to speed creep (faster than they thought they were going due to quietness/smoothness etc.) and lack of driver skill to be masked until to late!

[Gremlin]

We've discussed something similar before. Someone put up a link to a UK story I think, which put various drivers into an older car. Basically, people's skills were lower as the car did more of the driving, as such. Therefore, they struggled in the older car without all the aids.

[Indiana_Jones]

More modern cars? they can fuck off, I like my old shitter :woohoo:

-Indy

[Dadpole]

More modern cars? they can fuck off, I like my old shitter :woohoo:

-Indy

By modern, I assume you mean a car that works. :innocent:

[Indiana_Jones]

By modern, I assume you mean a car that works. :innocent:

shhhhhhh, I works, just needs TLC!

-Indy

[Cayman911]

If they take the nissan micra off the road, the roads will be much safer. when you see one, you just know its either going to go 30km/h, or put you in danger. or both.

why would you want one? it looks like a scrotum

[hellokitty]

More modern cars? they can fuck off, I like my old shitter :woohoo:

-Indy

:yes: me too! The best thing about having a car with no power steering. dodgy manual gearbox, hard suspension, and no mod cons is that teenage children can't learn to drive in it :woohoo: and yes I took that into consideration when buying it.

The downside is that as it is being done it up, it looks like a shitter and for some reason Mr Hellokitty gets pulled over in it :innocent: I don't....

But I can drive pretty much anything, after driving my car.

[scumdog]

I reckon new technology (ABS, Airbags, etc) has made more of a difference to the road toll than the "Speed Kills" bollocks that TPTB spout.

Yeah, all that fancy shit allows fuck-witted drongo drivers to survive crashes and carry on driving in that manner - and continue to breed equally fuck-witted kids who will emulate mum/dads piss-poor driving habits.

So there!

[Indiana_Jones]

:yes: me too! The best thing about having a car with no power steering. dodgy manual gearbox, hard suspension...

It's the only way to drive lol

-Indy

[StoneY]

During my time on the MSL Steering Group we had infornmation shared from Vic roads that indicates the AA are bang on the nail here

Vic's biggest single influence on lowering road carnage for Motorcycluists was gained by carefully re-engineering the worst black spots in regards bike crashes, removing tree's at roadside near bends, placing semi mountable curbs on the worst bends etc

For once, AA have gotten it right and this is a good initiative IMO

I have copies of some booklets that Vic created - one for roading contractors one for roading engineers detailing how to make roads more Motorcycle friendly, down to sweeping up gravel post curbing work etc...
Its a good read, happy to fax copies to anyone interested just pm me

[vifferman]

There are some theories (maybe studies too) showing that as the safety of a situation increases, so do the risks people take.
I'd imagine studies about this exist. It's well known that the tendency to make roads straighter and 'safer' sometimes makes them more dangerous, as the lower perceived risk makes people less attentive. I can't verify this with names, stats, etc., but I remember a program on the Idiotbox that looked at this. In particular, there was a road in the US where they'd removed a 'killer corner' and the accident rate went up.
Here's an example closer to home: skifield access roads. If ay roads could be labeled "killer" roads based on the potential danger, these could. But how many accidents/deaths do they have? Relatively few, as the slippery road surface, lack of armco barriers, the steep drop off the sides, lack of markings, etc etc mean that people generally take a lot more care when negotiating them.

I must be getting old (and arguably, senile): I keep looking at '50s and '60s cars and '70s bikes with a lustful eye. Most of these were pretty crappy compared to today's models, but had more character and were often more satisfying to drive/ride. The 1957 Morris Minor I used to own when I was a student was certainly cheaper to run and more reliable than the '90s model cars my two eldest sons own.

[scumdog]

There are some theories (maybe studies too) showing that as the safety of a situation increases, so do the risks people take.

Sort of why some people tend to speed up when they get onto the passing lanes.

The road is wider - ergo they feel safer at a higher speed

[Marmoot]

As far as cars go, the latest technology can not substitute for dumb practices. Reality shows that new cars get driven into accidents as easily as older cars.

Take a look at it this way: the badly maintained 1983 Fords and Mazdas with battered bodies and suspension being driven at 120kph really make me shudders. And that's not a rare occassion either. In any given day you would be seeing a number of them on our roads.

With 2001 and 2010 there may not be that much difference. But with a badly maintained 1980s vs. 2010, there is surely something different.

[Banditbandit]

During my time on the MSL Steering Group we had infornmation shared from Vic roads that indicates the AA are bang on the nail here

Vic's biggest single influence on lowering road carnage for Motorcycluists was gained by carefully re-engineering the worst black spots in regards bike crashes, removing tree's at roadside near bends, placing semi mountable curbs on the worst bends etc



That would tend to suggest that changing the roads do not make them less of an accident area - but rather changes reduce the risk of serious injury or death from accidents ...

I like the roads the way they are - making them "safer" generally means straighter - and on a bike that's no fun ...

[bogan]

With 2001 and 2010 there may not be that much difference. But with a badly maintained 1980s vs. 2010, there is surely something different.

Like the dude who on motorway patrol who took his springs out cos they were cut? (the problem being not that the cutties were removed, but that nothing else went in!). In such situations the age of the car is irrelevant, the older ones are cheaper, so more popular with this type of person.

[MSTRS]

I have copies of some booklets that Vic created - one for roading contractors one for roading engineers detaiuling how to make roads more Motorcycle friendly, down to sweeing up gravel post curbing work etc...


Can you send them to Higgins and Napier City Council...both of those fuckers believe that unmarked loose gravel is not a problem.

[awa355]

Take a look at it this way: the badly maintained 1983 Fords and Mazdas with battered bodies and suspension being driven at 120kph really make me shudders. And that's not a rare occassion either. In any given day you would be seeing a number of them on our roads.

With 2001 and 2010 there may not be that much difference. But with a badly maintained 1980s vs. 2010, there is surely something different.

No older car is ever going to be safer than a newer one.

I certainly dont consider the cars from the 60's/70's/80's safe to drive compared to todays cars but, I'd love an old Humber Super Snipe as an interest. Then I wouldn't have to give a shit about anybody else on the road, turn the wireless up, keep going and ignore the carnage in the rear view mirror.

I was told years ago by an old motorcyclist, that the most dangerous piece of any road is that bit right under your front wheel. Not anywhere else on your journey. he said there is where any accident is going to happen.

[PrincessBandit]

:yes: me too! The best thing about having a car with no power steering. dodgy manual gearbox, hard suspension, and no mod cons is that teenage children can't learn to drive in it :woohoo: and yes I took that into consideration when buying it.

The downside is that as it is being done it up, it looks like a shitter and for some reason Mr Hellokitty gets pulled over in it :innocent: I don't....

But I can drive pretty much anything, after driving my car.

I agree completely! Had to laugh - some time ago I was loaned a Ford courier (i think) while having my tyres changed on the wee car; my teenage daughter took one look at the column shift and said "mum, are you sure you know how to drive this?" Ah, brought back fond memories of the Mk 2 cortina.

Safety features are great but I agree that "ease of use and improved protection" tends to make for less adaptable and reduced-skill users.
p.s. when I traded the old Bluebird in the chap at the dealership said "your power steering is pretty bad" to which I replied "that's because it doesn't have power steering..."

[wynw]

Can you send them to Higgins and Napier City Council...both of those fuckers believe that unmarked loose gravel is not a problem.

Add Whangarei and Far North Distict Councils to that list, I'm sure they believe its not a real road unless its got potholes and pea metal all over it.

[Daffyd]

Can you send them to Higgins and Napier City Council...both of those fuckers believe that unmarked loose gravel is not a problem.

I rang the roading manager for the Clutha District Council a week or so before the KB SI rally expressing my concern about the loose gravel on one particular corner close to the venue and he offered to send a sweeper out a couple of days before the rally.

To my surprise, not only was that corner cleaned up, but the road at least 10km each way was not only swept, but all the white lines were redone.

He also undertook to, over time, re-engineer the corner in question to avoid gravel being thrown up.

[p.dath]

According to the AA, we need better roads and more modern cars to drive, then the road toll will drop.

It is likely to drop because better roads and more modern cars are both more forgiving of human error.

Neither has anything to do with making drivers better.

[MSTRS]

I rang the roading manager for the Clutha District Council a week or so before the KB SI rally expressing my concern about the loose gravel on one particular corner close to the venue and he offered to send a sweeper out a couple of days before the rally.

To my surprise, not only was that corner cleaned up, but the road at least 10km each way was not only swept, but all the white lines were redone.

He also undertook to, over time, re-engineer the corner in question to avoid gravel being thrown up.

3 times I have contacted NCC to get loose gravel cleaned up. Higgins carried out contract sealing works, then a week later removed the warning signs, leaving loose shit all over. 3x the oh-so-helpful voice at NCC roading dept has thanked me and promised to send a sweeper...still waiting.
YT was actively lied to by the apparent chief roading engineer re the same shit on a major intersection leading the the high school she works at. She was concerned about all the scooterist students coming to grief.

[Katman]

my teenage daughter took one look at the column shift and said "mum, are you sure you know how to drive this?" Ah, brought back fond memories of the Mk 2 cortina.


I would like to call, as Witness A, one driveway gate.

:whistle:

[george formby]

A new Ducati would increase my personal debt about 100% which means I could not afford petrol & rego for it, so yes, I would be a lot safer sat at home crying into my bank statement.
Regarding "safer" cars & roads, the fine print from the AA & other august bodies who study things like this indicates that the consequences of accidents are less severe, NOT fewer accidents. So air bags & huge run off areas at the roadside make it safer to crash.
I see the only real advance in cars to reduce accidents are driver aids such as infra red night vision, lane control alarms, assisted breaking, proximity sensors, radar etc. These are all proactive in preventing accidents but only available in high end cars & for the first time take the onus off the driver.

[Swoop]

According to the AA, we need better roads and more modern cars to drive, then the road toll will drop.

What do you think?
Personally, the Arsehole Association needs to pull its head out from its arse and see daylight.

Driver/rider EDUCATION will be of more use. "Nice" roads may help a little bit, but the main problem is (once again) overlooked.

[Dave Lobster]

If they take the nissan micra off the road, the roads will be much safer. when you see one, you just know its either going to go 30km/h, or put you in danger. or both.

why would you want one? it looks like a scrotum

Better than a fucking Prius.

[Scootbubba]

Too many cars with sole passengers - restrict this practice, reduce bike/cage conflict. It's damn illogical, the Itais get it right matching need to tyre numbers.

[p.dath]

Personally, the Arsehole Association needs to pull its head out from its arse and see daylight.

Driver/rider EDUCATION will be of more use. "Nice" roads may help a little bit, but the main problem is (once again) overlooked.

I think you'll find the AA are very focused on improving driver education. Certainly all the contact I have had with them suggests this is so.

They also have a discussion paper out at the moment about this very subject.

[SPman]

Sort of why some people tend to speed up when they get onto the passing lanes.

The road is wider - ergo they feel safer at a higher speed

Yeah - normally after you've been stuck behind them wobbling up a windy bit of road for the last 10 miles at 70kph!

[StoneY]

Driver/rider EDUCATION will be of more use. "Nice" roads may help a little bit, but the main problem is (once again) overlooked.

I agree with you, there is still shit we can do to our roads without taking out our funky bends and corners tho

The stuff Vic Roads identified wasn't 'straightening' roads as such.
It was taking the killer curbs and roadside signposts, trees, and unsuitable crash barriers (read WRB's) out of area's with high motorcycle usage
Also taught the engineers to camber the corners better, ensure proper grade of metal/hot mix was used for conditions, and tidy up after doing work!

If the AA can get our road engineers to pay a little attention to what other road makers like Vic Roads can achieve in reduction of mayhem, all the better for us too

[hellokitty]

I agree completely! Had to laugh - some time ago I was loaned a Ford courier (i think) while having my tyres changed on the wee car; my teenage daughter took one look at the column shift and said "mum, are you sure you know how to drive this?" Ah, brought back fond memories of the Mk 2 cortina.


Ummmmm, I drive an old Ford Courier :headbang: it isn't as cool as my previous truck, but I killed that one. (photos in my profile) :crybaby:

[EJK]

If they take the nissan micra off the road, the roads will be much safer. when you see one, you just know its either going to go 30km/h, or put you in danger. or both.

why would you want one? it looks like a scrotum

Mate, I had one. 1.4 of madness. It eats curves like a rat going up a sewer.
OK fine, it wasn't fast nor handled like a sports car but it was fun in my definition.

Because it was only 950kgs, it was really nice to drive actually. No ESP, just ABS. Good fun indeed.

[Cayman911]

Mate, I had one. 1.4 of madness. It eats curves like a rat going up a sewer.
OK fine, it wasn't fast nor handled like a sports car but it was fun in my definition.

Because it was only 950kgs, it was really nice to drive actually. No ESP, just ABS. Good fun indeed.

it still looks like a scrotum and is driven mainly by people who havnt been faster than 20km/h

[EJK]

it still looks like a scrotum and is driven mainly by people who havnt been faster than 20km/h

I understand your point.

[swbarnett]

There are some theories (maybe studies too) showing that as the safety of a situation increases, so do the risks people take.
It's called Risk Homeostasus.


In saying that though, people will always overstep the boundaries, and safer roads and cars will lower the damage to those that do.
The damage won't be less because the compensation means that accidents will be more severe (e.g. higher speed) or involve people that would not otherwise be involved (airbags may save the car's occupants but they do nothing for the pedestrain that gets hit because the driver was "safer" and could take less care).


Imo they can start by ripping up dangerous roadside furniture.
Spot on!

[swbarnett]

I see the only real advance in cars to reduce accidents are driver aids such as infra red night vision, lane control alarms, assisted breaking, proximity sensors, radar etc. These are all proactive in preventing accidents but only available in high end cars & for the first time take the onus off the driver.
This is all very well until these "assisted" drivers have to cope in a situation beyond the ability of the aids. Much better to leave them out and expect people to DRIVE rather than just taking a ride in a damn-near automated car.

[Mully]

It's called Risk Homeostasus.

Heh - Homeo...

[swbarnett]

Heh - Homeo...
Yes, I know what you're thinking.

Homeo simply means like or similar. Homo is more specific and comes from the Greek word "Homology" meaning same.

Therefore: Homeostatus menaing "simliar state" and Homosexual meaning "same sex".

[EJK]

Yes, I know what you're thinking.

Homeo simply means like or similar. Homo is more specific and comes from the Greek word "Homology" meaning same.

Therefore: Homeostatus menaing "simliar state" and Homosexual meaning "same sex".

We have an educated man.

[Maha]

Dumb practices occur from all road users, that part is not exclusive to car drivers alone.
'Safer roads' needs to include all those that use the road, not just a select group as such?

New technology verse's old?.... would that make you a better driver/rider?
Wonder how much better grandad would go in a new Aston martin after driver his reliable Austin 1100 for the last 30 years?..
Cant compare apples with cherry's.

[Ocean1]

I have reservations about the car flleet making us all better drivers tho' Would I be a better driver for being in a 2010 model car compared to my 2001 car?? I doubt my driving would be any different.

They didn’t say a new car would make anyone a better driver, even the AA aren’t that…. Scratch that, mebe they are.

Anyway, they said, (and I quote):


we need better roads and more modern cars to drive, then the road toll will drop.


And they’re perfectly correct.


I reckon new technology (ABS, Airbags, etc) has made more of a difference to the road toll than the "Speed Kills" bollocks that TPTB spout.

It has. A far, far greater difference.


Imo they can start by ripping up dangerous roadside furniture.

Not installing new dangerous roadside furniture would be a good start.


Personally, the Arsehole Association needs to pull its head out from its arse and see daylight.

Driver/rider EDUCATION will be of more use. "Nice" roads may help a little bit, but the main problem is (once again) overlooked.

Nope. “Education” is not what you might think. And I’m pickin’ you think it’s a sunny day at the local track under the expert guidance of those appropriately skilled in the fine arts of roadcraft. It’s not that. Education is what they euphemistically call forced indoctrination to the “accepted best practices” as espoused by ‘er Majesties servants, which are universally, (other than one or two village idiots) neither accepted or best practice.

And “nice”, for me means less liberally festooned with fucking sharp and hard signs saying shit like “turn that way”. Not to mention managing to wall off both sides of a corner with WRBs and yet allowing access to that corner by on-coming traffic. I know, I know, it’s a lot to ask….


Cant compare apples with cherry's.

I’ve got no idea what a cherry’s is, but I reckon apples are likely to be more suitable for cider.

[davereid]

The government are convinced that enforcement is the key.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/research/reports/397/docs/397.pdf

They talk about all sorts of technologies for tolling etc.

But the key parts relate to expansion of the existing electronic offence system to a fully automated, you will get caught and fined without human intervention type management system.

- Track you
- Track your car
- Track your passengers
- Toll you based on road, time, date and congestion
- Electronically fine you for speed offences
- Electronically fine you for wof offences
- Electronically fine you for registration offences
- Electronically fine you for licence breaches

Welcome to the New Zealand that our Government plans.
Still its for safety - and what have you got to hide ?

[Swoop]

“Education” is not what you might think. And I’m pickin’ you think it’s a sunny day at the local track under the expert guidance of those appropriately skilled in the fine arts of roadcraft.
Unfortunately you are off the mark there. I refer to the primary education of road users, before they even sit the licence exam.
"Learning" good skills from the very beginning. Learning in environments that cover those likely to be encountered (wet roads, dirt roads, skid-pan, etc, etc).
Not a 5 min "scratch and win" approach that we have currently.

Trackdays are completely different.

[Ocean1]

I refer to the primary education of road users, before they even sit the licence exam.

That's what I meant. Is not the track a good place for a novice to fuck up?

[Swoop]

That's what I meant. Is not the track a good place for a novice to fuck up?
Yes, a fine place to make mistakes.
So long as they are getting decent training!:yes: