View Full Version : Police chase survey
candor
9th January 2011, 10:58
Responses fro m general public sought
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NSLLQ5J
At above link is a survey trying to find out why Kiwi muppets flee Police, and what options to stop the related trauma are favored by the Public at this stage. Should be quick to do. It's for SUPP (Stop Unnecessary Police Pursuits) - the Kiwi version of Voices Against Unnecessary Police Pursuits - which is being set up with help of Candy Priano (whose teen daughter was an innocent victim in 2001) and her massive campaign group, which is US law enforcement advised.
We're presenting on NZs situation to U.S. Voices next conference, which presentation this local survey on causes and supported penalties may help to shape. Incidentally shoot them is not in the multi choice options, but a comments section is with this idea looking popular... though not many votes are in as its new.
We really want it to reflect the general public view without bias to special interests.
As Police have their own surveys already on this, we ask that ONLY those Police who've been in chases with bad outcomes OF SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH, or those family members of Police who've actually been physically hurt in chases participate.
Thanks to anyone taking the time.
Clean_up
9th January 2011, 11:01
So only police can do the survey? Or anyone can do, just if you're a police officer only do it if you've been in a chase that's gone arse up?
candor
9th January 2011, 11:36
No everyone over 10 ie who might be tall enough to drive/ride can - but we want Police and their family not to, not unless they or their family fit the criteria of having suffered chase harm.
Otherwise the survey could just end up biased by some Policey type view (whatever that might be).
Motu
9th January 2011, 11:48
So you want it biased anti policey? Good plan - come here because we are all so anti police.
Looking at the survey,there doesn't seem to be much option for increasing police chases,and for harsher penalties when they do catch them.It's all soft options...give them a cuddle and tell them don't be a naughty boy.They need to stop the runners,not stop the chases.
candor
9th January 2011, 11:56
Doh - getting MOST responses from cops which can easily happen if they decide to sabo destroys the aim for it to be a public survey. I note Police Assn surveys dont consult the public. Those whose opinions are likely significant and well considered are ones who've seen shit happen, and they ARE asked to participate - even though this may still bias the survey somewhat... given their views may be more emotive one way or another than other cops.
If you think getting most responses from the public will bias it anti policey that doesn't say much of your view of the public !
There are many options for harsher penalties - look again after researching the status quo of penalties. Currently 1/4 of runners get no added penalty - we have options there right up to the toughest anyone in the debat has suggested - jail (we put typical times seen in harsher countries) . Also when people kill they usually only get some low level sentence under reckles or drunk charges and only occasionally manslaughter. We've put the option there of delivering the max sentence only under the first charges or a manslaughter charge mandatory for repeat offenders... soft options or the toughest politically feasible (as we thought)?
Motu
9th January 2011, 12:46
And cops don't see shit happen?
I'd like to see runners better educated on running.If you and your car can't get away from a pimply faced young cop in a Commodore,then your driving and the vehicle need improving.Driver training,and focus on car handing,not looks.The problem is these dickheads can't do a runner,they always crash.
phill-k
9th January 2011, 14:00
Doh - getting MOST responses from cops which can easily happen if they decide to sabo destroys the aim for it to be a public survey. I note Police Assn surveys dont consult the public. Those whose opinions are likely significant and well considered are ones who've seen shit happen, and they ARE asked to participate - even though this may still bias the survey somewhat... given their views may be more emotive one way or another than other cops.
If you think getting most responses from the public will bias it anti policey that doesn't say much of your view of the public !
There are many options for harsher penalties - look again after researching the status quo of penalties. Currently 1/4 of runners get no added penalty - we have options there right up to the toughest anyone in the debat has suggested - jail (we put typical times seen in harsher countries) . Also when people kill they usually only get some low level sentence under reckles or drunk charges and only occasionally manslaughter. We've put the option there of delivering the max sentence only under the first charges or a manslaughter charge mandatory for repeat offenders... soft options or the toughest politically feasible (as we thought)?
I attempted to complete your survey but your questions are either designed to attract a specific bias toward more namby pamby pc management of a problem that can be answered simply by much tougher penalties such as prison time and confiscation of the vehicle involved regardless of who owns it, until we accept that some NZer's will always treat our laws and and society with contempt, and whilst our judiciary hand out minimal sentences, this problem will only grow worse. Unfortunately if you drive on or use our roads you are at risk of dieing as a result of someone breaking the law. Whether that be a drunk, someone being careless, or someone evading the law.
Our NZ Police are not reckless by and large, I'm sure if you were to average out the km's they do as a ratio of the accidents they have it will be well under the national average, and no I'm not a police officer nor am I particularly fond of some of their roading policies but unfortunately they must design their policing around the lowest common denominator, and in NZ's case as is often demonstrated that's not very high, a case in point the last lowlife to die after being told to stop by the police.
Your survey I believe will not represent the true attitudes of Mr & Mrs NZ, on the one hand you ask police not to complete it but wish those that have been the unfortunate victims of these offenders to express their bias, but you don't offer those victims the possibility of the death penalty, if you had I'm sure they would understandably vote for that, as barbaric as it is, the same as instructing the Police not to pursue naughty drivers is barbaric as well.
candor
9th January 2011, 14:15
I don't get you - prison time and car confiscation ARE in the options. And if you don't think these choices were tough enough there is a comments section to addd your own ideas.
bogan
9th January 2011, 14:24
After a breif look I also found it too biased to what you want to hear. The last sections, you can't put some options in block capitals and some not when it's multi choice. And I'm sorry, but I think anyone significant that you present the results to will take one look at the survey and biff em.
candor
9th January 2011, 14:37
Ah well if it is biased then I guess we can say this represents our supporters views of ways forward, though interestingly those who put the Q's together were quite anti the penalty options, seeing them as too hardline by far. So I thought we had it right..
not sure what you mean about block letters - it had some hiccups when we tried it but mostly slowness to register choices. Its free.
davereid
9th January 2011, 14:44
Its a catch 22 for police.
If they dont chase, then simply fleeing will become the routine way of dealing with the issue of a ticket.
On the other hand, I would hate to lose a loved family member to a chase, over something minor.
When we increased penalties for minor offences, added things like road side suspension of licence, and vehicle impoundment, we were asking for chases.
I generally dont speed, I try and obey the law by and large, acc fees excepted.
But I must admit, that if I were just giving the BMW a bit of extra snot to pass that smelly old sheep truck, and an oncoming police car turned its disco light on I would do the math.
If stopping guaranteed me road side licence suspension, and I was already rocking away from the police car at my 140 plus, and his 100 in the other direction, I can't put my hand on my heart and say I would not run.
And if density of traffic, proximity to a safe haven, and my local knowledge made me sure I would get away, then I would be very tempted.
Kendog
9th January 2011, 15:15
Responses fro m general public sought
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NSLLQ5J
At above link is a survey trying to find out why Kiwi muppets flee Police, and what options to stop the related trauma are favored by the Public at this stage.
Question 3 is two very different questions, why would they be combined into one question?
Can you explain Question 4, what is the relevance of my cultural background and my best contribution to society have to do with this survey?
Can you explain Question 8, what is the 'foreign model'?
Can you explain Question 9, why would the survey force a minimum of 5 suggested tougher penalties to stop people running. That makes the respondent have to agree to the suggested tougher penalties even if they don't.
Can you explain "worst kill rate per capita in the OECD predicament"
Thanks
Toaster
9th January 2011, 15:18
Responses fro m general public sought
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NSLLQ5J
At above link is a survey trying to find out why Kiwi muppets flee Police
Given that the police minister is a woman you could entitle it:
"Why do MUPPETS run from MISS PIGGY?"
candor
9th January 2011, 16:07
Question 3 is two very different questions, why would they be combined into one question?
Can you explain Question 4, what is the relevance of my cultural background and my best contribution to society have to do with this survey?
Can you explain Question 8, what is the 'foreign model'?
Can you explain Question 9, why would the survey force a minimum of 5 suggested tougher penalties to stop people running. That makes the respondent have to agree to the suggested tougher penalties even if they don't.
Can you explain "worst kill rate per capita in the OECD predicament"
Thanks
1. The Q about friends or family who were innocent getting hurt was accidentally omitted from an option list and if we went to add it back in then the survey claimed it would wipe all prior answers so it had to go elsewhere - the survey has a limit of 10 questions so we put it with the sex question as losing some sex info wasn't so bad.
2. To see if like sex etc cultures might have different biases to their answers, initiatives may not be one size fits all.
3. The best contrib to society question is both make for friendly tone and to see if many runners had actually gone on to better things. Yes I se the bias - we could have asked for peoples least proud actions too but is that polite lol?
4. Foreign model ='s penalties or policies etc as used overseas (these often have surprising sameness)
5. I think that was a flaw, but I think the option is there to opt out of the question and make ones view clear in comments instead (which some people have done)
6. this worst kill rate means that 5% of our toll is today chase related, that's 5% of a relatively high toll, when the next worst scenarios in other countries (usually with better tolls) are that up to 2% of their toll is chase related (Source Dr Alpert/pursuit watch). Before 2003 we were on a respectable wicket with 1-2 deaths a year on average the prior 7. But -19 chase deaths the last year out of about 4 million population - I challenge you to find a higher per capita rate in any OECD country.
Mmm I wasn't really wanting to debate on, it's done "to death" (no pun intended)
PrincessBandit
9th January 2011, 16:28
While I applaud the time and effort put into compiling those questions and scenarios I wondered, like others, what the relevance of some of the questions were e.g. societal contribution. I also wonder how many "offenders" would actually be bothered filling in the survey. Once again the old preaching-to-the-converted seems to prevail, although even then most of us here seem to favour allowing the police every tool available to apprehend offenders, including pursuit.
It bothers me that the over-riding aspect of your agenda is to do away with this. Catching someone red-handed is sometimes the best option, given that most offenders are well rehearsed liars with mates only too happy to provide false alibis.
Virago
9th January 2011, 16:43
I too have declined the opportunity to complete the survey.
It appears to be a very amateurish presentation, with rather odd and ambiguous questions, and a very clear bias in several areas.
If this is the kind of "research" that the Candor Trust is using to back its claims, their credibility will continue to decline.
Virago
9th January 2011, 16:49
...we ask that ONLY those Police who've been in chases with bad outcomes OF SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH, or those family members of Police who've actually been physically hurt in chases participate...
It's good that you've removed all doubt as to your intentions by excluding certain people, eh?
Scuba_Steve
9th January 2011, 16:50
I like the fact they emphasize some of the options for the last question with all CAPS :facepalm:...
candor
9th January 2011, 16:53
It's not Candor's - it's SUPP's as in the original post - a facebook group that's also into the issue. Youth led mainly. Some lawyers and others in behind it too. But I fully support as the group is doing it's own thing and will be interesting to see what that is
JimO
9th January 2011, 17:19
why call it a POLICE CHASE when in reality its a DRIVER FAILING TO STOP put the blame on the people who deserve it
Virago
9th January 2011, 17:33
It's not Candor's - it's SUPP's as in the original post - a facebook group that's also into the issue. Youth led mainly. Some lawyers and others in behind it too. But I fully support as the group is doing it's own thing and will be interesting to see what that is
So who is SUPP...? Another faceless Facebook group with no public accountability, and an appallingly biased approach to seeking public "opinion"?
You're obviously involved with SUPP on this matter...
...We're presenting on NZs situation to U.S. Voices next conference, which presentation this local survey on causes and supported penalties may help to shape...
If you've got an organ to grind with like-minded people in the US, go right ahead - but DON"T claim to represent the collective opinions of New Zealanders with such a blatantly biased "survey".
munster
9th January 2011, 18:09
why call it a POLICE CHASE when in reality its a DRIVER FAILING TO STOP put the blame on the people who deserve it
Absolutely correct! I too have declined to complete this very biased survey. This would fail every peer review if formally presented for publication.
SMOKEU
9th January 2011, 18:41
It's all nice and easy to say that the cops shouldn't be pursuing drivers, but if it was YOUR pride and joy that got stolen then I doubt many of you would say "Don't worry about catching the offender(s), let them get away with it".
98tls
9th January 2011, 19:11
a facebook group that's also into the issue. Youth led mainly. Some lawyers
:facepalm:No offence fella but its like asking for submissions on the welfare system from the population of Porirua.
awa355
9th January 2011, 19:17
Are you representitive of the candor trust? If so you might want to look up another thread on this site. Some stupid woman from this trust was on the news whineing about the police pursuits. She doesn't get much sympathy from anyone.
Gets none from me. I dont like cops nitpicking on motorcyclists but the brain dead that try to outrun the polce deserve what they get. As long as innocent people dont get hurt.
This Candor trust or Supps DO NOT represent me.
Edited. I see you are aware of the other thread.
Oakie
9th January 2011, 19:34
Saw the end of a low key 'driver failed to stop' at my front gate last night. Guy blew the alco-sensor into the naughty number area and was taken away. Is there any part of me that thinks it would have been a good idea for the Police to abandon the pursuit and leave this guy to carry on driving around because they knew who he was and could pick him up at home? Not a single percent. Glad they nailed him. Made more entertaining viewing than what was on TV at the time too.
Oh, and for what it's worth, refering to the police as 'cops' repeatedly in the survey only shows how amateur the survey is.
Virago
9th January 2011, 19:47
It's hardly surprising to note that the Facebook group SUPP was only created yesterday...
98tls
9th January 2011, 19:52
It's hardly surprising to note that the Facebook group SUPP was only created yesterday...
Have no fear, the combined minds of a thousand pimples will have already solved this and every other problem faced by mankind.
slowpoke
9th January 2011, 20:29
I dunno the right or wrong of it, haven't even looked at the survey, but it seems there is an important misconception about these kids "failing to stop". They aren't stealing the car for parts, or sale, or their own use, they steal and hoon for simple fun, for the thrill, and being chased by the police just makes it the ultimate thrill. Chasing (and possibly apprehending) them is not a deterrent it's fuckin' great as far as they're concerned.
Interesting article here: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10698281
I'm not sure what the answer is but I'll look at anything with an open mind. Looking at it from the perspective of an average, middle aged, middle class, relatively law abiding person with everything to lose in the event of police trouble is not the smartest way to tackle the problem. The kids involved are none of these things and have a completely different mindset, upbringing and culture.
98tls
9th January 2011, 21:01
The kids involved are none of these things and have a completely different mindset, upbringing and culture. Indeed,whats got me fucked is that between them and an army of otherwise unemployable do gooders they have a country fucked.
shrub
10th January 2011, 12:53
and know a bit about survey design. I believ that this survey is a complete waste of time as it will not produce any valid data.
Pascal
10th January 2011, 13:11
I believ that this survey is a complete waste of time as it will not produce any valid data.
This is usually the case when a survey is designed to answer a question somebody already thinks they have the answer to.
What scares the fuck out of me is that the media uses the Candor Trust and anything associated with them as a semi-credible reference.
It's a bit like grabbing a Lorem Ipsum and pretending it's Latin.
shrub
10th January 2011, 13:50
What scares the fuck out of me is that the media uses the Candor Trust and anything associated with them as a semi-credible reference.
I just had a look at their website - I can't for the life of me see how anyone could take them seriously. They make a brazillian claims and list all kinds of statistics without any referencing at all.
Did you know that 88.76% of male motorcyclists have bigger gentlemen's sausages than car drivers? And that 75.54 of internet users with the username Shrub are irresistable to the opposite sex, and in 95.42% of cases where they are also motorcyclists they are incredibly good riders?
Pascal
10th January 2011, 14:03
Did you know that 88.76% of male motorcyclists have bigger gentlemen's sausages than car drivers? And that 75.54 of internet users with the username Shrub are irresistable to the opposite sex, and in 95.42% of cases where they are also motorcyclists they are incredibly good riders?
That username is already in use or does not meet the administrator's standards. If you are shrub and you have forgotten your password, click here.
Fuck. What now?
PrincessBandit
10th January 2011, 14:24
I just had a look at their website - I can't for the life of me see how anyone could take them seriously. They make a brazillian claims and list all kinds of statistics without any referencing at all.
Did you know that 88.76% of male motorcyclists have bigger gentlemen's sausages than car drivers? And that 75.54 of internet users with the username Shrub are irresistable to the opposite sex, and in 95.42% of cases where they are also motorcyclists they are incredibly good riders?
And just what are their "brazillian" claims? Anything to do with razor rash or the like?
Fuck. What now?
Hahaha, nice try. I'm sure those with the user name Pascal do alright too...
MadDuck
10th January 2011, 15:16
And that 75.54 of internet users with the username Shrub are irresistable to the opposite sex....
OK. I am off to start a poll (I mean survey) under "Biker Angels" lets see what the girls have to say :sunny:
shrub
10th January 2011, 16:32
OK. I am off to start a poll (I mean survey) under "Biker Angels" lets see what the girls have to say :sunny:
look, I have the statistics to prove it, and anyway, women I have rejected make an invalid sample.
Oakie
10th January 2011, 19:39
and anyway, women I have rejected make an invalid sample. Ha ha, touche!
Banditbandit
11th January 2011, 12:23
and know a bit about survey design. I believ that this survey is a complete waste of time as it will not produce any valid data.
Yeah . me too .. it took me several times to read each question to get what they wanted - it's poorly written. And several times I wanted to tick more than one option but could not - it's crap ...
I filled it in as a runner (nearly twenty years ago ...) That was fun.
I thought the intent of the questions was quite good ... because, as a runner, harsher penalties would not have deterred me (If you get away there is no penalty ...)
You need to get into the mind of the offenders - and, (without apologies) none of the wankers here demanding the death penalty for graffitti have been there ... (or the bullshit artists who will take issue with that sentence) ...
shrub
11th January 2011, 15:06
You need to get into the mind of the offenders - and, (without apologies) none of the wankers here demanding the death penalty for graffitti have been there ... (or the bullshit artists who will take issue with that sentence) ...
If we want to stop people doing something, the logical first step is to understand why they do it. Instead we're too busy understanding why we don't want them to do it.
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