Labour attacking plans to sell power plant

[mashman]

good thing, bad thing? (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8638912/labour-attacking-plans-to-sell-power-plant/)

[StoneY]

Bad thing I say, and not coz I support labour

[Hitcher]

It's a good thing. Any money that the Government can extract for a pointless, redundant, obsolete piece of kit is surely a good thing? It's hardly an "asset".

[BMWST?]

It's a good thing. Any money that the Government can extract for a pointless, redundant, obsolete piece of kit is surely a good thing? It's hardly an "asset".

until the lakes run dry again...then it be all hand wringing "we didnt know we needed any reserves this year"
Just keep the assett(s) HERE,otherwise we havent nothing left to sell!(or borrow against)

[oneofsix]

Its a great idea, how else are John's buddy's to charge gazillions for power? Any body seen the smartest guys in the room and how they (Enron) manufactured the Californian power crisis?

[Juzz976]

until the lakes run dry again...then it be all hand wringing "we didnt know we needed any reserves this year"
Just keep the assett(s) HERE,otherwise we havent nothing left to sell!(or borrow against)

Hospitals have back up generators, they could sell them off too....

[Hitcher]

Hospitals have back up generators, they could sell them off too....

Hospital backup generators usually produce enough electricity to run most of the core/essential facilities at that venue. Whirinaki, on the other hand, produces stuff all power so can hardly be categorised as a "back up".

[slofox]

Hospitals have back up generators, they could sell them off too....

That's a bloody good idea - then all those sick bastards would die and we could reduce the health budget! Sheer genius!

[MSTRS]

Whirinaki power plant, eh?
Not needed, huh?
Surplus to requirements.
"Let's get rid of it"

Well, fuck me...here we go again. Again.

[Highlander]

Whirinaki power plant, eh?
Not needed, huh?
Surplus to requirements.
"Let's get rid of it"

Well, fuck me...here we go again. Again.

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q-KaZ6NCJGU?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q-KaZ6NCJGU?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

[StoneY]

Wether its out of date or not, its OURS and we shouldnt sell off any of our infrastructure....not again.... as stated above all we need is a dry year and we will start screaming 'why did we let it go'

[avgas]

until the lakes run dry again...then it be all hand wringing "we didnt know we needed any reserves this year"
Just keep the assett(s) HERE,otherwise we havent nothing left to sell!(or borrow against)

Are there natural gas reserves in Whirinaki?
If not its as useful as tits on a bull having a co-gen plant there. Sounds like they upgraded the Diesel plant with something more efficient.......so will only cost less to run - but will still cost far too much.

At 155MW could we not find some other generation plant that could satisfy this. Rather than one we have to truck diesel to?

(sorry about being a bit ambiguous here - but I don't know the area)

[Brian d marge]

All part of the plan, privatize infrastructure

The IMF Way since inception , good for the investor ...bad for wee granny

All going according to plan ,

Wake me up when they sell off the water ....

Stephen

PS where the custodian of the land , the so called Maori party ??

[avgas]

Wether its out of date or not, its OURS and we shouldnt sell off any of our infrastructure....not again.... as stated above all we need is a dry year and we will start screaming 'why did we let it go'
True - pretty much money for jam with Generation.

But I will still like to see what they would sell it for, and more importantly what they would do with the money.

Or am I asking too much to see an open book proposal about what the Govt does with the money they get from sales?

[avgas]

Wake me up when they sell off the water ....
http://www.watercare.co.nz - has grown 4 fold in the last 12 months...... and probably looks very good for Chinese investors. I wonder what the council will sell it for....10 billion?

[Motu]

PS where the custodian of the land , the so called Maori party ??

They are happy - Tainui are getting the Huntly station....it's all part of the plan.

[Pascal]

I don't like the idea as it is reported. If, however, there is a plan to provide some other backup mechanism then go for it.

[BMWST?]

circles much?

Background
Following national power shortages in 2001 and 2003 due to low hydro lake levels, the New Zealand government commissioned Contact Energy to build reserve generation on the Whirinaki site. This plant was intended to be a generator of last resort, providing back up generation when needed, such as during times of low hydro lake levels. The Electricity Commission has suggested that the generating units could be relocated, and converted to run on natural gas.

Operations
The diesel powered power station was opened in 2004, and comprises three Pratt & Whitney twinpacs, each with two FT8 gas turbines. Designed to be a standby power station, it has a total capacity of 155MW. The power station is maintained and operated by Contact Energy and it is state owned[2]. The station was due to be transferred to Meridian Energy on the 1st October 2010 as part of the 2010 electricity market reforms, but in December 2010, the New Zealand Government announced it intended to sell the plant by open tender.[3]

Site History
The site was previously occupied by a 220 MW power station, which began operation in 1978.[4] This comprised four Pratt & Whitney twinpacs, each with two FT4 gas turbines (based on the JT4A). This plant was fueled with diesel, which meant electricity generation was expensive and the plant operated very rarely. In 1993, one twin-pac was moved to construct a cogeneration plant at the Te Awamutu dairy factory. The remaining three units were sold and removed in 2001.

[SPman]

A cunning plan - sell off a redundant power station that is not needed, and set up the scenario for future sell-offs of more useful and critical amenities and services in the (not too distant) future.
As Brian D said -
All going according to plan

[avgas]

circles much?

Background
Following national power shortages in 2001 and 2003 due to low hydro lake levels, the New Zealand government commissioned Contact Energy to build reserve generation on the Whirinaki site. This plant was intended to be a generator of last resort, providing back up generation when needed, such as during times of low hydro lake levels. The Electricity Commission has suggested that the generating units could be relocated, and converted to run on natural gas.

Operations
The diesel powered power station was opened in 2004, and comprises three Pratt & Whitney twinpacs, each with two FT8 gas turbines. Designed to be a standby power station, it has a total capacity of 155MW. The power station is maintained and operated by Contact Energy and it is state owned[2]. The station was due to be transferred to Meridian Energy on the 1st October 2010 as part of the 2010 electricity market reforms, but in December 2010, the New Zealand Government announced it intended to sell the plant by open tender.[3]

Site History
The site was previously occupied by a 220 MW power station, which began operation in 1978.[4] This comprised four Pratt & Whitney twinpacs, each with two FT4 gas turbines (based on the JT4A). This plant was fueled with diesel, which meant electricity generation was expensive and the plant operated very rarely. In 1993, one twin-pac was moved to construct a cogeneration plant at the Te Awamutu dairy factory. The remaining three units were sold and removed in 2001.
Something tells me that 5MW solar and 15MW of wind is more beneficial to the grid than 155MW of Co-gen that is never turned on.
Besides we have the co-gen just down the road (East Tamaki) if need be, and that thing hardly runs and cost almost nothing to build after we screwed every manufacturer on the planet.

[Brian d marge]

http://www.watercare.co.nz - has grown 4 fold in the last 12 months...... and probably looks very good for Chinese investors. I wonder what the council will sell it for....10 billion?


:sleep:........:eek::doh:

They move quickly dont they,,,,they did the same in south America , same where ever they go ,,,, at least the Argies got pissed off !!!

Stephen

[Coldrider]

A huge price hike for the cost of coal is more of a threat than dry lakes.

[rustic101]

Sell the bloody thing.

Our (Kiwis) thinking is all wrong. Put a couple of dirty big water turbines out in the Cook Straight and generate our power that way.

Governments should Govern, not own or run businesses, excluding schools, hospitals, Police and a few other Govt Departments.

[tri boy]

"Jantar to the white lobby. Paging Mr Jantar"............

[Pixie]

They should put the two remaining GTs,one each up Gerry Browneyes and Jonkeys arses,tie as many National MPs to them as possible and using Nick Smith as a vectored thrust nozzle,launch them into the stratosphere.

[mashman]

:sleep:........:eek::doh:

They move quickly dont they,,,,they did the same in south America , same where ever they go ,,,, at least the Argies got pissed off !!!

Stephen

I saw a NatGeo on this a few years ago and the one bit that stayed with me was the guy (and some neighbours), who against the law and because they couldn't afford it, dug a channel to the water pipe running past their wall and tapped it, physically and metaphorically... disgusting.

little bit of wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochabamba_protests_of_2000): "According to The Ecologist in 2000, the World Bank declared it would not "renew" a 25 million USD loan to Bolivia unless it privatized its water services.[2] According to Jim Shultz, executive director of the Democracy Center in Cochabamba, the World Bank believed that "poor governments are often too plagued by local corruption and too ill equipped to run public water systems efficiently. ...[and that the use of private corporations] opens the door to needed investment and skilled management,"[3]"
:facepalm:

damned is ya do etc... screw what the people need.

[pete376403]

You could of course collect the rainwater that falls on your roof - until they make that illegal - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2559834/posts

[mashman]

You could of course collect the rainwater that falls on your roof - until they make that illegal - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2559834/posts

fuckin hell that's obscene...

[Smifffy]

We are running out of electricity capacity now. Whether that could be helped by this station, or other infrastructure spending (eg clapped out cables, new transmission lines) I don't know.

What I do know is that the NZ economy is currently strangled by insufficient supply of electricity, among other things.

http://www.systemoperator.co.nz/formal-notices-2010

http://www.systemoperator.co.nz/formal-notices-2009

http://www.systemoperator.co.nz/customer-advice-notices-2010

Despite all of those notices, the outlook is considered "Normal"

You can be sure that every time a notice is given, the price goes through the roof as well.

Check out the fluctuations in the spot price:

http://www.systemoperator.co.nz/wholesale-pricing-status

I don't believe that the system is in good enough shape to be selling off bits of it.

They claim to be able to predict the demand, and probably do just fine. The problem is they can't meet it.

Why would the price fluctuate so much if the demand is known, stable and predictable?

http://www.systemoperator.co.nz/demand-status

[Brian d marge]

Sell the bloody thing.

Our (Kiwis) thinking is all wrong. Put a couple of dirty big water turbines out in the Cook Straight and generate our power that way.

Governments should Govern, not own or run businesses, excluding schools, hospitals, Police and a few other Govt Departments.

Sometimes they should , but at least put people in charge who HAVE run a business

utilities should not be run to make a profit , electricity being one of them

State owned , paid through by my take , run efficiently with people held to account if it doesn't,

Phones on the other hand I never thought of them as a necessity

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

I saw a NatGeo on this a few years ago and the one bit that stayed with me was the guy (and some neighbours), who against the law and because they couldn't afford it, dug a channel to the water pipe running past their wall and tapped it, physically and metaphorically... disgusting.

little bit of wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochabamba_protests_of_2000): "According to The Ecologist in 2000, the World Bank declared it would not "renew" a 25 million USD loan to Bolivia unless it privatized its water services.[2] According to Jim Shultz, executive director of the Democracy Center in Cochabamba, the World Bank believed that "poor governments are often too plagued by local corruption and too ill equipped to run public water systems efficiently. ...[and that the use of private corporations] opens the door to needed investment and skilled management,"[3]"
:facepalm:

damned is ya do etc... screw what the people need.

Tis why I bang on and on and...... about the IMF world bank , National labor Winston peters ... I couldn't care , Now the bond rate and those evil baskets "advising " NZ .,... I do care

Gandi , and just say no to anything that smacks of the IMF , " user pays , speeding tickets , water , student loans ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

One minister salary can pay 2 teachers ( roughly )

Stephen

[Swoop]

They should put the two remaining GTs,one each up Gerry Browneyes and Jonkeys arses,tie as many National MPs to them as possible and using Nick Smith as a vectored thrust nozzle,launch them into the stratosphere.
You would need some really hot air to keep the turbine running. The green party would be perfect there!

[SMOKEU]

I'm surprised that they're talking of selling it. I thought they would have given it away to some Maori tribe for free.

[avgas]

Why would the price fluctuate so much if the demand is known, stable and predictable?
The same reason that oil, coal, food....... is known stable and predictable.

The ONLY objective of a business is to generate profit. All other objectives are for the benefit of the individuals.

[Brian d marge]

have a look a Burma ,,, lots of stuff going cheap there!

Stephen

[mashman]

Tis why I bang on and on and...... about the IMF world bank , National labor Winston peters ... I couldn't care , Now the bond rate and those evil baskets "advising " NZ .,... I do care

Gandi , and just say no to anything that smacks of the IMF , " user pays , speeding tickets , water , student loans ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

One minister salary can pay 2 teachers ( roughly )

Stephen

mate, calm down, the NZ sharemarket peaked at a 28-month high today, all's well, they've fixed NZ... :eek:

[Mully]

Our (Kiwis) thinking is all wrong. Put a couple of dirty big water turbines out in the Cook Straight and generate our power that way.


I'd have a couple near Auckland, couple near Wellington, couple near Christchurch....

IIRC, they were talking about doing that up North of Auckland way (Rodney-ish). The local iwi told 'em to fuck off cos it's hapu or tapu or some such gobbledygook. Nothing that a fat cheque couldn't fix, I suspect.

And I think the plan sank without a trace, so to speak.

[Jantar]

Are there natural gas reserves in Whirinaki?
If not its as useful as tits on a bull having a co-gen plant there. Sounds like they upgraded the Diesel plant with something more efficient.......so will only cost less to run - but will still cost far too much.

At 155MW could we not find some other generation plant that could satisfy this. Rather than one we have to truck diesel to?

(sorry about being a bit ambiguous here - but I don't know the area)

The Whirinaki station is quite new and only installed after the 2001 electricity crisis. It has run quite often to cover shortfalls in the market, but is expensive. Being a diesel plant it costs almost $400 per MHW to run, but is fast start and fast ramp. Thus it is a good backup to wind power.

The cost of running it makes it unattractive to any of the large generation companies, as it doesn't earn enough to cover the capital cost, let alone SRMC. This is the reason that the Electricity commission was the owner, although Contact has the operations and maintenence contract. It would not be a profitable addition to any portfolio, but is great as a security backup.

[Jantar]

Something tells me that 5MW solar and 15MW of wind is more beneficial to the grid than 155MW of Co-gen that is never turned on.
Besides we have the co-gen just down the road (East Tamaki) if need be, and that thing hardly runs and cost almost nothing to build after we screwed every manufacturer on the planet.
There is no 155 MW of Co-gen. I'm not sure where that idea came from, but the whirinaki power station is solely for electrical energy. It is not a co-gen plant.

[Jantar]

They should put the two remaining GTs,one each up Gerry Browneyes and Jonkeys arses,tie as many National MPs to them as possible and using Nick Smith as a vectored thrust nozzle,launch them into the stratosphere.
What two remaining GTs? The Whirinaki power station comprises of 3 GTsets each capable of around 52 MW. This is a new station. The old Whirinaki station was completely sold off in 2001, just before the electricity crisis of that year.

[Jantar]

Sell the bloody thing.

Our (Kiwis) thinking is all wrong. Put a couple of dirty big water turbines out in the Cook Straight and generate our power that way. ....
When someone designs and builds such a turbine that works and is economical enough to use, then maybe. Until then this idea is still just a pipe dream.

[Jantar]

I'd have a couple near Auckland, couple near Wellington, couple near Christchurch....

IIRC, they were talking about doing that up North of Auckland way (Rodney-ish). The local iwi told 'em to fuck off cos it's hapu or tapu or some such gobbledygook. Nothing that a fat cheque couldn't fix, I suspect.

And I think the plan sank without a trace, so to speak.
Well the first one was supposed to working last year. So far no-one has been able to produce anything that will work in Cook Straight.

This from 2008.

http://renewableenergydev.com/red/tidal-energy-cook-strait/

[Brian d marge]

renewable energy

just look at wellington,the beehive

all that gas , hot air and the unbelivable piles of Shyte ,,,, could run most off the south Island , off that

bout time they sent some back down our way

Stephen

[piston broke]

i'm still hopeing to see the day when the Kaipara harbour is tapped.
there is a lot of water moving there,22-23hrs/day

[MSTRS]

What I fail to see is...
If it was 'necessary' to build the Whirinaki plant as backup, because of shortfalls in generation, in 2001 - since then demand has increased, but has generation done so too, to the point where that extra capacity is not needed?

[BMWST?]

The old Whirinaki station was completely sold off in 2001, just before the electricity crisis of that year.

good planning eh!.We need the capacity and as Jantar has pointed out its a fast reaction station.You cant have solar and wind as backup cos it might be dark and or not windy when something happens to another generatiing plant.Dismantle it and move it to where there are still gas reserves(or NZ diesel supplies)

[Mully]

IIRC, they were talking about doing that up North of Auckland way (Rodney-ish). The local iwi told 'em to fuck off cos it's hapu or tapu or some such gobbledygook. Nothing that a fat cheque couldn't fix, I suspect.


i'm still hopeing to see the day when the Kaipara harbour is tapped.
there is a lot of water moving there,22-23hrs/day

KAIPARA!!! That's where it was proposed.

I do recall one of the Maori Party troublemakers was one of the main shitstirrers.


Well the first one was supposed to working last year. So far no-one has been able to produce anything that will work in Cook Straight.

Here's the Kaipara link - Crest Energy (http://www.crest-energy.com/)

And here's lots of locals - (not just Iwi - I guess I recalled wrong) getting snaky - true Kiwi NIMBYs.

Almost exactly a year ago now. Just over.

http://www.northernadvocate.co.nz/local/news/anger-mounts-as-kaipara-tidal-power-plan-gets-nod/3908523/

[Jantar]

....Here's the Kaipara link - ...
That is for tidal power which is a bit different to deep current power which was proposed for Cook Straight. To say that they would be completely submerged isn't quite correct either. The turbines would be submerged, but the remainder of the plant and switchgear is still above water. Gilkes in Scotland build the best tidal turbines, but even theirs are only marginally economic with a 6 m tide. Tidal turbines work best where the tides are high, and around New Zealand our tides are quite small, around 2 m.

[piston broke]

That is for tidal power which is a bit different to deep current power which was proposed for Cook Straight. To say that they would be completely submerged isn't quite correct either. The turbines would be submerged, but the remainder of the plant and switchgear is still above water. Gilkes in Scotland build the best tidal turbines, but even theirs are only marginally economic with a 6 m tide. Tidal turbines work best where the tides are high, and around New Zealand our tides are quite small, around 2 m.

wouldn't it be more about the amount of water rather than tide hieghts?
isn't the Kaipara one of the larger inland harbours in the southern hemisphere?

[piston broke]

does anyone have any idea why there aren't solar panels set up under the windmills?
surely they could do it and fully use the sites.
i mean the lines e.t.c are already there to move the power.

[Jantar]

wouldn't it be more about the amount of water rather than tide hieghts?
isn't the Kaipara one of the larger inland harbours in the southern hemisphere?

The formula for getting power from water is:

P = GQHe
where P is power in kW
G is gravity (9.81 m/s^2)
Q is the flow of water in cumecs
H is the head (height) or equivilent head of water in m
e is the turbine efficiency.

In tidal, or instream situations where there is no or very little actual head then the equivilent head must be calculated from the speed of water.
H = V^2/2G

and the flow Q is calculated from
Q = Va
where a is the cross sectioanl area of the flow path through the turbine in m^2.
e in the power formula is highest when a is minimised.

So it is obvious that unless you have a large head, or high velocity of water then it is impossible to get meaningful amounts of power.

[puddytat]

Sell it...its an outdated concept thats prone to the fluctuations of Diesel prices & will be no doubt a CO2 emitting monster that we'll also have to pay for.
With the money we get for it, we can give every household in the country a hot water cylinder wrap & save damn near as much. Any money left over should the go into planning a large net work of mini hydro run of the river schemes, the kind that dont require a large impact on the river & so consequently the conservationist AND the rednecked Joe Average river user can see the sense of...

But in saying that, I do see the emergency backup side of it. But I can also see the possibilty of some politicians buying it back in the future, after its been run down & you & I will pay yet again to update it before we sell it & go thru it all again....
Like the Railways?

[Swoop]

just look at wellington,the beehive

all that gas , hot air and the unbelivable piles of Shyte ,,,,
I was thinking exactly the same thing. A wind turbine mounted horizontally across the debating chamber would produce sufficient energy to power the greater Wellington area!

isn't the Kaipara one of the larger inland harbours in the southern hemisphere?
It is the largest. Tidal flow out at the graveyard is staggering!

[Jantar]

.....

It is the largest. Tidal flow out at the graveyard is staggering!
It is also one of the places in New Zealand with the highest mean tide.

[Ocean1]

It is also one of the places in New Zealand with the highest mean tide.

Mean tide?

As in... half way between average high and low tides?

Or greatest mean difference?

[Jantar]

Mean tide?

As in... half way between average high and low tides?

Or greatest mean difference?
Greatest mean difference. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

[Ocean1]

Greatest mean difference. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

:niceone:


So it is obvious that unless you have a large head, or high velocity of water then it is impossible to get meaningful amounts of power.

I recall the cook straight numbers looked very promising. IIRC the mean peak flow is >4 knots. If you consider the displaced volume the potential is very encouraging.

Need turbines over quite a wide cross section, though, and there's some impressively deep flows out there...

[Jantar]

....I recall the cook straight numbers looked very promising. IIRC the mean peak flow is >4 knots. If you consider the displaced volume the potential is very encouraging.......
Thats only 2 m/s which is equivilent to a head of 0.7m.

[Ocean1]

Thats only 2 m/s which is equivilent to a head of 0.7m.

Yup. Lots of it though.

Bit of disparity in the early proposals...


The company claims there is enough tidal movement in Cook Strait to generate 12 GW of power


...has applied for resource consent to install up to 10 marine turbines, each able to produce up to 1.2 MW, near the Cook Strait entrance to Tory Channel. They claim Tory Channel is an optimal site with a tidal current speed of 3.6 metres a second and the best combination of bathymetry and accessibility to the electricity network

Looking for cumecs/day. Saw a flow graphic a couple of years ago...

[Jantar]

...Looking for cumecs/day. Saw a flow graphic a couple of years ago...
Um, no such animal as cumecs per day. One cumec is one cubic meter of water per second. Cumecs per day is a bit like km/hr per day.

[Mully]

The formula for getting power from water is:

P = GQHe
where P is power in kW
G is gravity (9.81 m/s^2)
Q is the flow of water in cumecs
H is the head (height) or equivilent head of water in m
e is the turbine efficiency.

In tidal, or instream situations where there is no or very little actual head then the equivilent head must be calculated from the speed of water.
H = V^2/2G

and the flow Q is calculated from
Q = Va
where a is the cross sectioanl area of the flow path through the turbine in m^2.
e in the power formula is highest when a is minimised.

So it is obvious that unless you have a large head, or high velocity of water then it is impossible to get meaningful amounts of power.

Well yeah, of course that's obvious........

All I know is they claimed to be able to power 250,000 houses or some such. And the NIMBYs had a waaaaaaaa (tm).

[Ocean1]

Um, no such animal as cumecs per day. One cumec is one cubic meter of water per second. Cumecs per day is a bit like km/hr per day.

I meant cumecs plotted over the tide cycle duration, (but not daily, true). Still can't find the graph I was looking for.

[piston broke]

Jantar,you seem to be the knowlegable one here.
is there a reason they don't have solar panels around the wind turbines?
is it because the cells aren't good enough yet or maybe startup costs.
and of course profit

[superman]

Jantar,you seem to be the knowlegable one here.
is there a reason they don't have solar panels around the wind turbines?
is it because the cells aren't good enough yet or maybe startup costs.
and of course profit

They've started putting solar panels on top of wind turbines :msn-wink:

But they have to provide a meaningful amount of energy for the cost put in, and that includes all year around. NZ good for wind, not great for all year high energy light. And winter is when more power is used so unless you had huge batteries to store summer solar energy through the winter it would be pretty pointless and probably not cost effective.

[Jantar]

Jantar,you seem to be the knowlegable one here.
is there a reason they don't have solar panels around the wind turbines?
is it because the cells aren't good enough yet or maybe startup costs.
and of course profit
Costs of installation, poor efficiency, and the area required makes them unworkable on a large scale. Spain tried a solar inititive and it sent their power generation company to the wall. Some aussie states are trying it with domestic solar and expect that it may be economic in around 40 years time.

[Winston001]

Bling to Jantar for informative facts. :niceone:

It isn't commonly recognised that solar cells are inefficient. The best ones only capture 15% of the energy which falls on them. As well as that, they cost a lot to make so the energy produced is 5 times more expensive than hydro. They require wiring and bits and pieces and they do not last long.

[piston broke]

They've started putting solar panels on top of wind turbines :msn-wink:

But they have to provide a meaningful amount of energy for the cost put in, and that includes all year around. NZ good for wind, not great for all year high energy light. And winter is when more power is used so unless you had huge batteries to store summer solar energy through the winter it would be pretty pointless and probably not cost effective.

i guess the storage battery would be,less use of hydro,therefore during the summer you would keep more water behind the dams for peak use in the winter.

how much wind speed do you need to get those big wind turbines to start?

[Jantar]

i guess the storage battery would be,less use of hydro,therefore during the summer you would keep more water behind the dams for peak use in the winter.

how much wind speed do you need to get those big wind turbines to start?

To answer your second question first. The speed at which wind turbines begin to produce energy variesaccording to design and manufacturer. We track closely the ones at White Hills (near Mossburn) as they cause us to spill water over Clyde and Roxburgh. They appear to begin generating at a wind speed of around 15 kmh and feather at around 55 kmh. Yes, Too much wind and they stop working.

Solar power that is designed to feed back into the grid, do not use storage batteries. That would make the cost prohibitive. Storage batteries are only used in very small solar power situations. I believe that some solar farms farms do use small battery banks as a power smoothing. These have a few seconds of storage only.

Electricity is the one commodity that is made as it is used. It cannot be stored on any scale. This means that the electricity generators in total have to be able to follow the load. New Zealand has a very predictable load pattern as our whole country is on a single time zone. Most people sleep at night, so our demand is minimum around 2:00 - 5:00 am. Between 5:00 and 7:00 am people are waking up putting on their morning coffee etc. and by around 8:00 am even teenagers are out of bed and demand is suddenly very high. Over that 3 hour period from 5:00 to 8:00 demand more than doubles. It then drops off as the day goes on to reach a second minimum around 2:00 to 4:30 pm, then a second peak around dark, then drops off again. Solar power doesn't produce any energy at all during these rises to the peaks in winter, but does produce its maximum in the afternoon when it isn't needed. It is starting to produce power at the morning peak in summer, but again, that's when hydro inflows are at their peak, and additional energy isn't needed.

Solar power can work best in places where more energy is needed for air conditioning than for heating. Spain and northern Queensland perhaps?

[superman]

Solar power can work best in places where more energy is needed for air conditioning than for heating. Spain and northern Queensland perhaps?

There is a proposal to have satellites with large solar panels that then beam the energy to the ground via microwaves. Don't know how far they've gone in developing that so far, but that would provide 24 hour output of solar power and therefore could be useful. However you would then require an area of land to pick up the microwaves and of course no plane could fly over this zone etc etc. But the idea... is a good one.

So some companies just use capacitors to even out voltage peaks do they?

[Winston001]

What I fail to see is...
If it was 'necessary' to build the Whirinaki plant as backup, because of shortfalls in generation, in 2001 - since then demand has increased, but has generation done so too, to the point where that extra capacity is not needed?

An excellent question and I'm surprised nobody else picked up on it. I dunno either.

But I'll hesitate a guess: we are short of electricity but not at any price. If its too expensive, then it doesn't get used. Whirinaki is oil powered? which makes it costly to run.

Even so, I'd have thought one of the major electricity companies could run it and spread the cost across its other generation plants. I suppose that puts them at a competitive disadvantage if they are needing a higher overall price than other generators.

[Winston001]

There is a proposal to have satellites with large solar panels that then beam the energy to the ground via microwaves. Don't know how far they've gone in developing that so far, but that would provide 24 hour output of solar power and therefore could be useful. However you would then require an area of land to pick up the microwaves and of course no plane could fly over this zone etc etc. But the idea... is a good one.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power

Its an interesting idea and beaming energy from space 24/7 has potential.

Experiments have been carried out at Goldstone California, Reunion Island, and most recently in Hawaii. In that case they beamed 20kw 92 miles which is astonishing when you think about it.

We could also beam direct sunlight from space using parabolic mirrors onto a "kettle" on Earth. The kettle would heat up and run steam generators just like geothermal power stations. Highly efficent and much easier than microwaves but focusing the beam would be critical. Basically we are talking about a death ray from space. :eek:

[Swoop]

and by around 8:00 am even teenagers are out of bed
WHAT!!??:eek:

Seriously? What planet is this on?:scratch::devil2:

[Ocean1]

There is a proposal to have satellites with large solar panels that then beam the energy to the ground via microwaves.

Problems with atmospheric attenuation across most frequencies.


Basically we are talking about a death ray from space. :eek:

:yes: Problems of a more political nature with more suitable frequencies.

[Smifffy]

An excellent question and I'm surprised nobody else picked up on it. I dunno either.

But I'll hesitate a guess: we are short of electricity but not at any price. If its too expensive, then it doesn't get used. Whirinaki is oil powered? which makes it costly to run.



Not at any price?

Start with rolling brownouts/blackouts across Auckland & Wellington, and there will be a hue and cry for more generation at any price.

At the rate we are going, I wonder when we will get ditched from the OECD and join the 3rd world properly. At least then we'd get some Kyoto money to waste.

[Banditbandit]

PS where the custodian of the land , the so called Maori party ??

Kia ora koutou ... It's a dirty smelly station burning either oil or diesel polluting our land .. get rid of it now ..

[Banditbandit]

Jantar,you seem to be the knowlegable one here.
is there a reason they don't have solar panels around the wind turbines?
is it because the cells aren't good enough yet or maybe startup costs.
and of course profit

Sheep shit on them - decreasing the efficiency ???