Calling all professional engineers

[Brian d marge]

Mechanical , electrical, Machinists ( and any of those young ladies on K road )

This idea has been rattling around in my brain and it wont leave, so I ll put it here.

There are some enthusiastic young fellas , mucking about with bikes on this site , such as in the Bucket forum,

There are others here who have a skills in Engineering,

Why dont we put them together? and help an enthusiastic young fella build and develop a bike ? and at the same time improve any skills that we want to get stronger in

Create a professional looking team ( sorry a bit scruffy some of those buckets :bleh: )

and use this medium to get it going.

For example I can use CAD , CFD finite analysis, Rapid prototyping. a whole bike set-up software and have access to Bike parts over here in Japan ( also I can chuck in some money couple of hundred a month depends on my drinking !! )

Me personally , I am interested in electric bikes , as its a field I have little knowledge in

Just a thought thats all ,

Stephen

[avgas]

Sounds interesting......

I am quite happy to have my brains picked, but alas time is short for me. I barely have enough time to get my own bike sorted.

So probably best bet for me is if you guys get stuck leave and question up here and I will save this thread and check in every now and then.

Sorry can't be much more help than that. But I have no work life balance, I am the engineer they lock in the cupboard at night.
-Stew

[Brian d marge]

Sounds interesting......

I am quite happy to have my brains picked, but alas time is short for me. I barely have enough time to get my own bike sorted.

So probably best bet for me is if you guys get stuck leave and question up here and I will save this thread and check in every now and then.

Sorry can't be much more help than that. But I have no work life balance, I am the engineer they lock in the cupboard at night.
-Stew

Thats what I was thinking , There will be others who can pick up the ball and run with it

if there is enough interest , could make it a sticky

Stephen

[lostinflyz]

I've just finished my SXV road race conversion, after nats i'd be happy to help anyone (I'm a prof eng. (mechanical), just a little green). Access to similar stuff as stephen (not japan so much though).

i just saw the vyrus moto2 bike and would love to make a hub centred steering or girder style race frame . one for the sxv motor would be cool but i reckon one about 125 size that meets moto3 specs and our local rules would be awesome, just drop in any 250 motocross lump.

Electric bikes would be cool too, but very expensive once you source batteries motors and control units.

[Clivoris]

Great thread BD (Stephen). I have a van and some hands on experience with race-bikes but limited fabrication skills. I'm pretty busy getting my daughter started in streetstock and buckets, but will keep an eye on this. Happy to help if I can.

[Brian d marge]

we just need a young fella .( or fellaress )

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Great thread BD (Stephen). I have a van and some hands on experience with race-bikes but limited fabrication skills. I'm pretty busy getting my daughter started in streetstock and buckets, but will keep an eye on this. Happy to help if I can.

well there are two professional Engineers at your daughters command

Stephen

[boostin]

http://www.cosentinoengineering.com/moto2/index.htm

Check out their blog. Some nice engineering in there. Really like the Supermono Mk.2.

I would love to make a hossack front ended bucket. Just very little time and money to spend on it. Maybe in about 12 months.

[scott411]

I've just finished my SXV road race conversion, after nats i'd be happy to help anyone (I'm a prof eng. (mechanical), just a little green). Access to similar stuff as stephen (not japan so much though).

i just saw the vyrus moto2 bike and would love to make a hub centred steering or girder style race frame . one for the sxv motor would be cool but i reckon one about 125 size that meets moto3 specs and our local rules would be awesome, just drop in any 250 motocross lump.

Electric bikes would be cool too, but very expensive once you source batteries motors and control units.


if you are going to run a 250F motocross motor you will get very good at replaceing valves and such, they will not handle road racing that well in my experience,

[lostinflyz]

if you are going to run a 250F motocross motor you will get very good at replaceing valves and such, they will not handle road racing that well in my experience,

well that would be part of the challenge wouldn't it???

that being said power ain't free and easy, if you build a race bike, you expect to strip it on a regular basis, particularly if its a prototype. or maybe im a sucker for punishement.

[Yow Ling]

( also I can chuck in some money couple of hundred a month depends on my drinking !! )


Stephen


send the money Ill do my best !

[bogan]

been doing some mods to my own bikes here and there over the years, so may be able to offer some help. What class you thinking of designing for and what are the restrictions on it? cos a lot of em don't allow too much design freedom...

[Moooools]

I am getting close to the end of my first project; a bucket consisting of CB 125T in a TZR250 (1KT) chassis (or am I? Project could go forever...) and I am already lining up my next one.

This will be my last year I have a garage to work in before leaving home and heading to uni (to study engineering of course), and had something a bit over the top in mind.

I managed to pick up a CBR 250 MC19 rolling chassis cheaply and, with the help of an engineer who knows his stuff, am keen to get a CBR 250 engine back in it, take out one piston and conrod, and de-stroke the remaining 3 cylinders (about 3.5mm for a total 7mm less stroke) and then either use longer conrods or skim the barrels to get the compression ratio right, and end up with a 150cc bucket racer with 3/4 of a proper engine; ie not a commuter. *cough*FXR*

Does this sound like something anyone would be interesting in helping me out with?
Would this actually work?
Is it to complex/simple?

Max

[bogan]

I am getting close to the end of my first project; a bucket consisting of CB 125T in a TZR250 (1KT) chassis (or am I? Project could go forever...) and I am already lining up my next one.

This will be my last year I have a garage to work in before leaving home and heading to uni (to study engineering of course), and had something a bit over the top in mind.

I managed to pick up a CBR 250 MC19 rolling chassis cheaply and, with the help of an engineer who knows his stuff, am keen to get a CBR 250 engine back in it, take out one piston and conrod, and de-stroke the remaining 3 cylinders (about 3.5mm for a total 7mm less stroke) and then either use longer conrods or skim the barrels to get the compression ratio right, and end up with a 150cc bucket racer with 3/4 of a proper engine; ie not a commuter. *cough*FXR*

Does this sound like something anyone would be interesting in helping me out with?
Would this actually work?
Is it to complex/simple?

Max

Interesting, designing and balancing that crank could be fun (in a nightmare kind of way) though! Gonna stick with the stock firing order? Pity the boosted restriction is 100cc (iirc) otherwise you could just run 2 cylinders as superchargers and 2 as normal...

[Moooools]

I would like to avoid making a new crank if possible. Hopefully I will simply be able to get the stock crank modified.
The firing order will probably stay the same. Keep that part easy.

[Grumph]

Sorry, no, destroking the Honda crank is prohibitively expensive...when summit eng were doing submerged arc welding of cranks in Rotorua it was doable but dear...
Better option is to make it a 125 twin - primary is between 3 & 4 I think ? So cut off 1 and 4, blank off cases and barrel ends and with some care in assembly you've got an 18,000rpm 8 valve 125 twin....If you really want 150cc start looking for pistons of suitable bore size.

[Moooools]

Hmmmm. That's a pity.
What is the welding for? I don't really get what needs to be welded...
Could you explain that to me please.

The twin is a very good option as well. Quite a bit simpler.

[koba]

I am getting close to the end of my first project; a bucket consisting of CB 125T in a TZR250 (1KT) chassis (or am I? Project could go forever...) and I am already lining up my next one.

This will be my last year I have a garage to work in before leaving home and heading to uni (to study engineering of course), and had something a bit over the top in mind.

I managed to pick up a CBR 250 MC19 rolling chassis cheaply and, with the help of an engineer who knows his stuff, am keen to get a CBR 250 engine back in it, take out one piston and conrod, and de-stroke the remaining 3 cylinders (about 3.5mm for a total 7mm less stroke) and then either use longer conrods or skim the barrels to get the compression ratio right, and end up with a 150cc bucket racer with 3/4 of a proper engine; ie not a commuter. *cough*FXR*

Does this sound like something anyone would be interesting in helping me out with?
Would this actually work?
Is it to complex/simple?

Max

It think You would be better off cutting the left two cylinders off and making a twin.

Time/Money wise better again would be buying an FXR....

Edit: Didn't read the second page... Yeah twin would be better but an established motor would have you competitive for a fraction of the time/effort/money.

[lostinflyz]

i think the aim is to take the road less traveled. Innovation only happens when you try something new.

[avgas]

What others have said Moooools
The jappa IL4's don't like playing with much. So buy taking 1 out of the 4 out requires serious mods on the crank.
The only way I could see you getting away from doing this is by creating a 'dead' cylinder.......but that would be so inefficient I wouldn't see the point.

Modding to a supercharged twin would be sweet (2 + 2 charge pistons) - but alas you could not race that (but as a road bike would be pretty cool).
Making it a 2 cylinder by cutting the others off......after about 6 month sorting it you'll be wondering why you didn't build a twin from scratch.

If you hate FXR's so much and what to keep it honda, what about doing something wacky with an XR200 - the motor would be pretty bulletproof if you sleeve it down to a 125 and put a lightweight piston in it.

[Moooools]

6 months of sorting out wouldn't realty bother me. It's all interesting experience and something to add to the cv.

I will have my current bike to race in the mean time.

A suzuki gsxr 400 is 53mm which would give 150cc from a twin. (and a piston already from a four valve engine.)

A single cylinder just doesn't really excite me.

There is a guy who races f3 with a gsxr 600 minus one cylinder. Might be worth me getting in contact with him and seeing how he did it.

Thanks for all of your input though. I have a habit of dismissing peoples input far to quickly, but once I get a bit deeper into shit I will evaluate it a bit more closely :yes:

Max

[bogan]

you could maintain balance by putting a spacer on the unused crank pin (weight of bottom half of conrod). But short-stroking the crank would still be a lot of work, and would require welding or custom fabrication, so you may as well do a proper triple crank. Unfortunately the existing sizes don't seem to divide nicely into the numbers you need. Except possibly a 400 to super charged single conversion.... or somthing like an old CM200 parralel twin, also supercharged single.

[Grumph]

Hmmmm. That's a pity.
What is the welding for? I don't really get what needs to be welded...
Could you explain that to me please.

The twin is a very good option as well. Quite a bit simpler.

The Honda is a one piece forged crank - to stroke/destroke the big end journals have to be welded and reground on new centers. As far as I know no one in NZ now does the required submerged arc welding process. I heard that Summit who did do it sold the gear to the main customer - a dairy factory ?

As far as making progress with adventurous design goes....I saw too much adventure and not enough progress with the Britten. Mike Sinclair's comment that next years winning bike is this years one with 5% improvement still holds true.

[Moooools]

Sweet. I'm glad someone told me that now.

I am kind of liking the twin bored out to a 150, idea at the moment.
If I remove conrods and pistons that are 180 degrees apart,would the crank not stay balanced? Or is that completely wrong...

[avgas]

Sweet. I'm glad someone told me that now.

I am kind of liking the twin bored out to a 150, idea at the moment.
If I remove conrods and pistons that are 180 degrees apart,would the crank not stay balanced? Or is that completely wrong...
Unfortunately last time I saw this attempted - they only did halve the work, but while the crank was balanced, the engine was not. It rocked like a washing machine.
However if you shortened the crank, cut up the block, remake a new head.......
actually the more I think about it, the easier twin built from scratch sounds.

Why not make a V twin out of 2 x 50cc kits with big bores out to 75cc?
That way all you would have to do is make a crazy crank case setup. There may even already be a kit out there (say from a compressor or something)

[bogan]

Sweet. I'm glad someone told me that now.

I am kind of liking the twin bored out to a 150, idea at the moment.
If I remove conrods and pistons that are 180 degrees apart,would the crank not stay balanced? Or is that completely wrong...

no that would unbalance the crank, as it is designed to counterbalance the lower half of the con-rod. And as avgas says, you still have engine balance to worry about. Which i guess is why parralel twins are so rare, I've seen one two stroke with it (KR-1, pistons 180 degrees apart) and one four stroke (CM200, pistons on a shared pin I think).

Also, you may not even need to bore out an extra 25cc if you can get a rejiggered twin to work, should have plenty of power, and that way you wouldn't put in extra effort before the concept is proven.

[Moooools]

No I think what avgas was saying, is that although the crank is in rotational balance, the removal of the mass of the conrod would leave two reciprocating masses traveling in opposite directions, causing the engine to twist about the centre of mass of these two masses.

Would it be possible to put the entire crank in the lathe and spin it up, adding mass to the empty crank pins until it rotates without vibrating?

Actually that doesn't work at all because you would need the remaining two con rods to be in place. Otherwise when you attached them they would simply put the balance back out.

Perhaps I will need to work it out using some physics. All about rotational momentum really.

[bogan]

the conrod is part rotational mass, and part reciprocating mass, while you can balance the rotational mass bit, you will still have reciprocating mass unbalanced in the pistons, if they are 180 degrees apart you would get a rocking from side to side vibration, if on the same pin, would be an up down vibration.

[Moooools]

The reciprocating mass is usually delt with by a counterbalance shaft. It is near impossible to eliminate completely with any inline engine. (I think)

How about an analogy.

Say you had a 40gallon barrel spinning on a lathe. You then add four weights to the barrel. Two at each end and on opposite sides of the circumference of the barrel.

The barrel would rotate without vibration.

If you took one weight off of each end, however from opposite sides, the barrel would still be in rotational balance.

But when the barrel starts to spin it would vibrate, as the masses would always be traveling in the opposite direction to each other.

Does that make sense or am I talking rubbish?

[Grumph]

Oh fer crying out loud...who's a qualified engineer on here ???

the two center throws of a four are in the same plane - both "up" if you llike...
this makes it a 360 degree parallel twin...think triumph,Norton etc etc..
easily rebalanced - particularly as it's so small and short stroke. OE balance factor is probably around 35-40% so simply rebalance to around 65 -70% static.
all 360 deg twins without a balance shaft are a compromise in balance so it doesn't matter if it's not exact first time round - just change it until it's acceptably smooth in the rev range you use.

[bogan]

The reciprocating mass is usually delt with by a counterbalance shaft. It is near impossible to eliminate completely with any inline engine. (I think)
Does that make sense or am I talking rubbish?

the analogy makes sense, but with an IL4, you have 4 weights to place, put the two middle ones on top, and two end ones on bottom, now how much vibration will there be?


Oh fer crying out loud...who's a qualified engineer on here ???

the two center throws of a four are in the same plane - both "up" if you llike...
this makes it a 360 degree parallel twin...think triumph,Norton etc etc..
easily rebalanced - particularly as it's so small and short stroke. OE balance factor is probably around 35-40% so simply rebalance to around 65 -70% static.
all 360 deg twins without a balance shaft are a compromise in balance so it doesn't matter if it's not exact first time round - just change it until it's acceptably smooth in the rev range you use.

me actually...

not really sure what you mean, can you balance a 360deg twin for high revs without a balance shaft? or do the CBR250 engines have balance shafts? for some reason I thought sports IL4s generally didn't.

[Brian d marge]

yes I did put that in the title ..

my idea was, that who practice those magic arts that could spare a few min, create , help , and maybe sponsor a young person
Towards a well set up, professional looking , run ,,, what ever ( I just thought buckets as there is a lot of room for creativity

Me I would be keepin it simple and not trying to reinvent the wheel

Stephen

[Moooools]

I will just take grumphs side because he is angry.:bleh:
I am getting more and more lost. So I will probably end up just getting an engine and working it all out from there.

[robinm]

If you want to see some amazing modified motors, check out Allen Millyard, google him, some examples are 5 cylinder Kawasaki 2 strokes, a V12 Kawasaki, made from 2 x Z1300's, Honda V twin 100cc, made from 2x SS50 motors. All made in a single garage at his home in the UK, with no hi tech equipment, his main tools are a hacksaw and a file. A modern day Bert Munro!!

[bogan]

I will just take grumphs side because he is angry.:bleh:
I am getting more and more lost. So I will probably end up just getting an engine and working it all out from there.

fair enough, though either way you're gonna have to learn the theory of it all, but it is possibly cheaper to figure out as much as you can now, in case it isn't going to work or require too much modification to get it to run as you hope.

[Yow Ling]

You guys should apply for jobs at honda. Who in their right mind would want to put a truck sized engine in a bucket and expect to win. Here is a clue - less weight = fast bike. You wont be getting a head start at the track , no point in designing a bike with a disability

[Moooools]

Who said anything about winning?

[Grumph]

Please read up on your theory before cutting metal....it's cheaper.

And I don't mean quicky magazine articles either - find any of the tuning for speed series or tuning automotive engines or Motorcycle Engineering all by Phil Irving.
local library should have something. The old bugger knew what he was talking about and wrote in an understandable manner too. The black art of balancing motorcycle motors hasn't really moved on from where he wrote it up either. Fours are just multiples of singles from a balance point of view.
Time has showed he was conservative in carb size & gas speed - cam specs are still ballpark stuff though.

[avgas]

I have to admit I know my knowledge limit, and its been a while since I had to do much mechanical these days. But I think Grumph is on the right track of advice for you Phil Irving's books were good for setting up a race engine. Sadly I think a lot of his books will show you how to modify existing engines and keep same "order of things" e.g. how many pistons it has etc.

What I was trying to say before was sort of a combination of what you all concluded - by simply removing a moving mass out of the engine, and putting balancer shafts in does not make it balanced. You have to think outside the engine - how are you going to bolt this thing down if it wants to go full gyro on you. There are very specific reasons why some chassis are completely rebuilt when the engine changes in them.

got me thinking last night though mabey we are thinking about this the wrong way. With learners bikes being at 250cc why don't you get a CBR400 motor, and make that a supercharged 200cc?
Would be the hell learners bike (I have no idea if you could race it though) - and cert costs aside would be 1 of a kind L plater.
And if you did it smart enough you could build yourself a "conversion kit" that could make you a bit of coin.

As for keeping it bucket racing......sorry man - but the best and cheapest option will always to buy someone else's work. There are reasons why motorcycle engine designers get paid the big bucks. Unless your willing to invest years (and $$$'s) in getting it right - your pushing shit up hill big time

[Bert]

Mechanical , electrical, Machinists ( and any of those young ladies on K road )

This idea has been rattling around in my brain and it wont leave, so I ll put it here.

There are some enthusiastic young fellas , mucking about with bikes on this site , such as in the Bucket forum,

There are others here who have a skills in Engineering,

Why dont we put them together? and help an enthusiastic young fella build and develop a bike ? and at the same time improve any skills that we want to get stronger in

Create a professional looking team ( sorry a bit scruffy some of those buckets :bleh: )

...
Just a thought thats all ,

Stephen

Its a good thought Stephen.

There are a couple of classes worth thinking about:
the new GP125 (250's)
Buckets (ideally F5 50s; to get the class growing again; but F4 as the primary option).

Plenty of 50's and 125/150 fours in Japan...

Though there are some scruffy buckets, it does look that generally the guys are putting a lot of effort into presentation of their bikes these days. generally the fields (from looking at photos or being on track) look better presented than most classics and post classic fields.

NZ built "metrakit like" frame setup (good forks, shock,wheels, fairings?; maybe RS etc) that can be upgraded relatively simply from 50-150-250 (though 250 might require significant additional engineering)? to enable "young fellas" to move up without massive out lay (except initial outlay & rebuilds)..
I could also start my annual rant about the use of small dirt bike motors (due the share number of engines sitting in sheds), but I wont quite yet.

There are plenty of people/companies building these parts in NZ already, it would just be a case to get them together.


yes .....

my idea was, that who practice those magic arts that could spare a few min, create , help , and maybe sponsor a young person
Towards a well set up, professional looking , run ,,, what ever ( I just thought buckets as there is a lot of room for creativity

Me I would be keepin it simple and not trying to reinvent the wheel

Stephen

I'd be keen get involved time permitting and I'm sure there are others that would get involved.

Plenty of room for creativity in buckets and plenty of cheap racing these days; and we are starting to see them running at larger (big bike) meetings and embarrassing a fair few larger bikes.. which is what you really need to get something like this going. and it is still the best fun you can have with your pants on; nothing better than seeing 40+ bike fields at taupo/ruapuna and close racing.

[Brian d marge]

229076Yes I have looked at those Metrakits closely and seem a good choice,

So there is the target then ,, good idea
snip
There are plenty of people/companies building these parts in NZ already, it would just be a case to get them together.

Where are they???

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Well are there any young fellas who would like some help??

Stephen

[avgas]

Is there still a 50cc racing class?

If so why is no one racing this:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Toys-models/Radio-control/Parts-accessories/Motors/auction-348662175.htm

[koba]

Is there still a 50cc racing class?

If so why is no one racing this:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Toys-models/Radio-control/Parts-accessories/Motors/auction-348662175.htm

Rules.

You could probably use it in the NZ50cc GP, I think thats been run once in more than a decade. F5 Buckets are the main one I know of and the rules don't allow that!

Edit: Fecking cool tho!

[avgas]

Yeah I would love to chuck one of these on a mountain bike and do one of those hub conversions.
Alas with a baby on the way I don't even have a $3,000 motorbike let alone that kind of money to spend of cool toys.
I notice also in the same section there is a jet turbine.

[koba]

Well are there any young fellas who would like some help??

Stephen

How young? :p

[crazy man]

l have a gt 125 twin with 2 mb 50 heads and barrals which makes a 100cc.. crank case reed valve induckion all water cooled rgv 28mm carbs. fun times needs better pistons in it

[koba]

l have a gt 125 twin with 2 mb 50 heads and barrals which makes a 100cc.. crank case reed valve induckion all water cooled rgv 28mm carbs. fun times needs better pistons in it

Shit man, bring it out to Kaitoke on Sunday!
Or Easter if it's a bit far away.

[R6_kid]

The same idea has been ticking over in my head for some time now though I don't think the forum is the best place for it. If it is to really work it needs to stay on track: identify the skills and knowledge required, network to find willing people (through the forum), then take it offline and drive it in the right direction and just feed back updated to those interested.

I want to build a 150cc V-twin... I'm dreaming but I'm thinking Baby Britten. I've just made contact with a guy who has a flow bench and is going to help me pull some ponies out of my CB200 motor, then once we reach the limits with that he has a friend who builds speedway motors that does all his own castings and all the rest except for pistons and valves. Should prove quite interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes.

Hopefully this gets picked up and managed well so that something constructive can come from it.

[Brian d marge]

The same idea has been ticking over in my head for some time now though I don't think the forum is the best place for it. If it is to really work it needs to stay on track: identify the skills and knowledge required, network to find willing people (through the forum), then take it offline and drive it in the right direction and just feed back updated to those interested.

I want to build a 150cc V-twin... I'm dreaming but I'm thinking Baby Britten. I've just made contact with a guy who has a flow bench and is going to help me pull some ponies out of my CB200 motor, then once we reach the limits with that he has a friend who builds speedway motors that does all his own castings and all the rest except for pistons and valves. Should prove quite interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes.

Hopefully this gets picked up and managed well so that something constructive can come from it.

Well I use Openfoam CFD and play around with engines here in Japan ( and have been for years)

With a v twin there is no need to reinvent the wheel , has been done before ,,,Ducati

THOUGH

Engines cost money ...quickly and expensively

I just made some foot pegs and hangers, stress tested by FEA , and then a mock up using rapid prototyping , ( get it right first time sort of approach ) They were for my vintage race bike so had to be as light as possible , strrong as possible and ,,as cheap as possible ( cause it was ME whowas paying ) ...600 dollars roughly

but ....... if there is a will there is a way ....

outline the proposal and post it up ! I reckon

Stephen

ps you are right about the staying on track ......

[Buckets4Me]

Rules.

You could probably use it in the NZ50cc GP, I think thats been run once in more than a decade. F5 Buckets are the main one I know of and the rules don't allow that!

Edit: Fecking cool tho!


you would be going backwards anyway
thats a 4 stroke and the limit for f5 4 strokes is 100cc :niceone:
so you would need to find 2 of them and bolt to both the frount and back wheels giving you a 2 wheel drive F5 bucket

now thats a project i would like to see get off the ground:jerry:

[Bert]

l have a gt 125 twin with 2 mb 50 heads and barrals which makes a 100cc.. crank case reed valve induckion all water cooled rgv 28mm carbs. fun times needs better pistons in it


Shit man, bring it out to Kaitoke on Sunday!
Or Easter if it's a bit far away.

its a work of art....

crazy man - why don't you guys dig out a few of the old girls and make it down to easter !!

[koba]

you would be going backwards anyway
thats a 4 stroke and the limit for f5 4 strokes is 100cc :niceone:
so you would need to find 2 of them and bolt to both the frount and back wheels giving you a 2 wheel drive F5 bucket

now thats a project i would like to see get off the ground:jerry:

But it doesn't meet the rules for buckets...

[Buckets4Me]

But it doesn't meet the rules for buckets...


like anyone would use it anyway

let alone spend 6k on a bucket :facepalm:

as bert said it's a work of art

[crazy man]

its a work of art....

crazy man - why don't you guys dig out a few of the old girls and make it down to easter !!yes l need to get back into buckets been a long time! that twin does sound neat. just got to get my a into g