Has John Key handled the decision to seal Pike River poorly?

[shrub]

It seems to me from a quick obervation that he could well lose all the goodwill he earned when it all happened. I agree that the time has to come when a decision is made to give up trying to recover the bodies, and from what I understand from talking to someone who knows about these things all that is likely to be found will be fragments of bone, but I think the decision was made poorly.

It seems from what I have read on the net that the families received little warning and were not consulted with adequately. They are being quoted as saying that they weren't ready to give up looking and they are planning to contract an expert to provide a report when 3 of these have already been prepared. If they are willing to spend that kind of money it would suggest that they weren't aware of the other reports given they were apparently unequivocal.

So they're up in arms, and this could cost Key big time. Be interesting to see what his spin doctors do.

[JimO]

they should have sealed the mine weeks ago, there will be nothing left of the miners to recover. whats key supposed to do?? he isnt running the operation

[Mully]

I'd be surprised if JK made that decision himself.

I seem to recall hearing that they stopped trying cos it was dangerous.

[Vampirella]

It seems to me from a quick obervation that he could well lose all the goodwill he earned when it all happened. I agree that the time has to come when a decision is made to give up trying to recover the bodies, and from what I understand from talking to someone who knows about these things all that is likely to be found will be fragments of bone, but I think the decision was made poorly.

It seems from what I have read on the net that the families received little warning and were not consulted with adequately. They are being quoted as saying that they weren't ready to give up looking and they are planning to contract an expert to provide a report when 3 of these have already been prepared. If they are willing to spend that kind of money it would suggest that they weren't aware of the other reports given they were apparently unequivocal.

So they're up in arms, and this could cost Key big time. Be interesting to see what his spin doctors do.THis is just like saying "Calling all armchair warriors" or "Calling all Monday morning quarter backs" just fookin leave it to the experts.

[Mully]

THis is just like saying "Calling all armchair warriors" or "Calling all Monday morning quarter backs" just fookin leave it to the experts.

*Snort*

You're new to KB, so you might not have realised. This is the home od the world's experts......

Bling duly blung.

[sil3nt]

I don't understand why they kept trying to get in there for so long. Surely there is nothing to recover. Risking more lives always seemed a little pointless.

[FJRider]

*Snort*

You're new to KB, so you might not have realised. This is the home od the world's experts......

Bling duly blung.

CLOSE ... we know more than God .... experts are just noob's ...

[imdying]

THis is just like saying "Calling all armchair warriors" or "Calling all Monday morning quarter backs" just fookin leave it to the experts.Ah huh, and your post is like saying "Calling all flamers to tell me what a silly bitch I am".

[shrub]

I'd be surprised if JK made that decision himself.

I seem to recall hearing that they stopped trying cos it was dangerous.

It was really the only logical thing to do, but the validity of the decision is not in question, rather how Key's publicity people handled it.

He had little to do with the decision, but because of his involvement at the begiining and the masterful way he worked the crowds and came down to the level of the community he is therefore linked to the decision. Despite him having little or nothing to do with it, he was linked so needed to manage how the decision was made and fed to the families.

He held a press conference where he announced the decision, which was entirely appropriate and now he is being accused of breaking promises and there is a potential "he says - she says" scenario with grieving familes, and that's a battle he will not win.

It would have been wiser to involve the familes in the decision making process, make them privy to the reports of the experts and managed them to the point where they felt included and able to accept the decision.

[FJRider]

I don't understand why they kept trying to get in there for so long. Surely there is nothing to recover. Risking more lives always seemed a little pointless.

because an attempt must be SEEN to be tried ... reality however ... is usually (as usual) seen later ...

[Deano]

I'd be surprised if JK made that decision himself.

I seem to recall hearing that they stopped trying cos it was dangerous.

+1.

He was quoted as saying it will be sealed, but then seemed to quickly say that it was the receiver's call.

I think he spoke a bit soon on his personal thoughts of the overall outcome, when in reality, it's not his decision.

As far as body recovery goes, I understand that crematoriums operate at 6-700 degrees C, the mine explosions and fires resulted in 1000 degrees. There's nothing left sorry.

The media keep referring to recovery of bodies. Are they trying to inflame the situation or are being PC for the families.

[Mully]

It was really the only logical thing to do, but the validity of the decision is not in question, rather how Key's publicity people handled it.

He had little to do with the decision, but because of his involvement at the begiining and the masterful way he worked the crowds and came down to the level of the community he is therefore linked to the decision. Despite him having little or nothing to do with it, he was linked so needed to manage how the decision was made and fed to the families.

He held a press conference where he announced the decision, which was entirely appropriate and now he is being accused of breaking promises and there is a potential "he says - she says" scenario with grieving familes, and that's a battle he will not win.

It would have been wiser to involve the familes in the decision making process, make them privy to the reports of the experts and managed them to the point where they felt included and able to accept the decision.

Meh - the people that will hold this against him are the type of people who go looking for things to damn him for anyway.

[riffer]

Let's face it. No-one's ever going to give the Tories an easy time on the West Coast.

[PrincessBandit]

It would always be a highly emotionally charged call. My first thought was "well, where do you draw the line; it has to come some time". Then I imagined what it would be like if my own son or husband's remains were trapped up in a mountain and realised just how hard it would be.

It will continue to be a heart breaking course, regardless of how and when any decision is made and by whom.

[Genie]

Didn't see his announcement, did he laugh or something?
I can't imagine many being able to handle that situation very well.
Politics and death...do they go hand-in-hand?
Glad I'm no-one of great importance, dont' think I'd handle that too flash myself.

I don't really think they had much choice, mother nature and her gases seem to be holding all the cards in this round, and in many other 'rounds' around the world!

Best we make the most of the moments we have, you have no idea how long you have left and getting all antsy over this, waste of time.

[neels]

It hasn't been handled as well as it could have been.

Much like the way for a long time after the first explosion they were still searching for survivors, then the next one happened they immediately stated that they were all dead.

This announcement has been similar, stringing families along with the belief that they will recover the bodies of the dead, then rather abruptly announcing that they're not going to bother.

Can't have made it easy for those with loved ones that were down there.

[Cloggy]

I don't understand what is going on here.
What I do know is that if one of my family was down in that mine I'd want to know if there are bodies or remains left to recover. To simply seal it up now and say "That's it", is unacceptable.
We can send men into outer space, we can send men down deep into the oceans, both very inhospitable places, yet we can't send someone or some robot machine into a mine filled with gas to go and have a look??

[Kookie]

I don't understand what is going on here.
What I do know is that if one of my family was down in that mine I'd want to know if there are bodies or remains left to recover. To simply seal it up now and say "That's it", is unacceptable.

Well said. I'd also want to know.. For closures sake if nothing else. I would always wonder what if, without it.

[Swoop]

It seems to me from a quick obervation that he could well lose all the goodwill he earned when it all happened.
Hold your horses and get your facts straight.

The police took over the "incident", even though they had no expertise in this area.

The police have now played slope-shoulders and handed everything to the receiver's of Pike River Mine to sort out from here. Being a company in receivership the almighty dollar would certainly come into play here. JK stated that "if it only came down to the dollars" then it would be an easy situation and $$$'s would be thrown at a solution.

The GAG unit appears to have run out of puff, and the Aussies appear to want it back (according to Te NEWS).

But never let the facts get in the way of a good rant, eh? It had to be the fault of JK.

[onearmedbandit]

I don't understand what is going on here.
What I do know is that if one of my family was down in that mine I'd want to know if there are bodies or remains left to recover. To simply seal it up now and say "That's it", is unacceptable.
We can send men into outer space, we can send men down deep into the oceans, both very inhospitable places, yet we can't send someone or some robot machine into a mine filled with gas to go and have a look??

Yeah, obviously the experts just can't be fucked going down there...

[EJK]

No hard feelings for the family or all related but this just reminds me of an idiom:
"They have dug their own graves."

[Wannabiker]

...I see on the news there was a lawyer in the background advancing the families causes, fuelling their emotions ....and will continue to do so until their money dries up. With an estimated $4 Billion in coal in there, they must feel they have pretty good reason to close it up.

I honestly dont know what they hope to find after that long in 1000 degree heat...it would be unlikely to even have dental remains...

[mashman]

the only thing I don't understand, and i'm an expert, because I watched the chilean mine disaster on TV, is why instead of trying to clear 2kms of shaft with an engine, they didn't just drill down to the area from above a la chile. I'm sure there must be a perfectly good explanation for that.

If it's not a case of $$$, then why have they stopped after all this time? I would have thought, JK being such a smart man, that he would have spoken with the families and explained that they would continue for another week and if no progress was made, then they'd seal it. JK should have made the initial announcement, not Broad.

[davebullet]

the only thing I don't understand, and i'm an expert, because I watched the chilean mine disaster on TV, is why instead of trying to clear 2kms of shaft with an engine, they didn't just drill down to the area from above a la chile. I'm sure there must be a perfectly good explanation for that..

'Cause there were flames about 20 foot high at the surface of the existing vent. So I'm guessing any new drilling with more gas down there and sparking and up she goes in the new vent.

[mashman]

'Cause there were flames about 20 foot high at the surface of the existing vent. So I'm guessing any new drilling with more gas down there and sparking and up she goes in the new vent.

fair enough, so how was the GAG supposed to help?

[Mully]

fair enough, so how was the GAG supposed to help?

IIRC, it was starving the fire of oxygen. Well, it was meant to.

[Coldrider]

When the pointy end of the stick starts being poked around by the various investigations and Royal Commission, plus Labour Department and/or Police can lay charges on their own totally separate from other investigations, they'll all be running for cover.

[R6_kid]

Anyone who did science knows that a flame will only burn as long as it has oxygen to do so. The flame from the first explosion would have burnt up all the oxygen in there at the time, and the only safe place then was the safe room which has a separate air supply to the rest of the tunnel system.

Repeat said flame situation four times, and it's impossible that anyone has survived, I would say that they would have been very (un)lucky to survive the first one and still be down there.

Now you have a coal fire burning up any remaining oxygen, most likely burning 'dirty' or in a lack of oxygen yet maintain enough heat to re-ignite as soon as the oxygen saturation meets the required amount. I would say that there is nothing left down there and closing it up is the best thing they can do, but you'd have to be realistic that if/when it is safe to go down there again that there isn't going to be a whole lot to retrieve.

[shrub]

Hold your horses and get your facts straight.

The police took over the "incident", even though they had no expertise in this area.

The police have now played slope-shoulders and handed everything to the receiver's of Pike River Mine to sort out from here. Being a company in receivership the almighty dollar would certainly come into play here. JK stated that "if it only came down to the dollars" then it would be an easy situation and $$$'s would be thrown at a solution.

The GAG unit appears to have run out of puff, and the Aussies appear to want it back (according to Te NEWS).

But never let the facts get in the way of a good rant, eh? It had to be the fault of JK.

Key must be glad he has you to defend him. Read my posts again, I never blamed Key for anything but was merely pointing out that this was badly handled from a PR perspective.

[JimO]

how come skyrider isnt here spouting his labour propaganda? they would have had the fire out and bodies recovered in 2 days

[Pussy]

Yeah, John Key was probably responsible for the Apollo 13 incident, no doubt he shot JFK, and single handedly caused the Wahine and Erebus disasters, too.....

[Mully]

Yeah, John Key was probably responsible for the Apollo 13 incident, no doubt he shot JFK, and single handedly caused the Wahine and Erebus disasters, too.....

He also gave Stephen Hawking cripple. Hawking was a famous skateboarder before John Key had a go at him.

[shrub]

If it's not a case of $$$, then why have they stopped after all this time? I would have thought, JK being such a smart man, that he would have spoken with the families and explained that they would continue for another week and if no progress was made, then they'd seal it. JK should have made the initial announcement, not Broad.

Like I said, poorly handled from a PR perspective, and in an election year every point scored is valuable. He had the chance to be seen as the kind and caring Uncle John, friend of orphans and widows, by being seen to have worked with the families to satisfy their concerns, involve them in the decision making process and eventually do the logical thing and shut the mine down. Instead Broad makes the first announcement followed by Key making a seemingly hastilly called together second announcement. He has now cost National credibility in the Coast running the risk of them returning to Labour.

His strategists must be fuming because he had won so many browny points when the crisis happened, and now he's lost them.

[mashman]

His strategists must be fuming because he had won so many browny points when the crisis happened, and now he's lost them.

They could have done things a damn site better, but I doubt this is gonna damage his credibility as much as you think... i hope i'm VERY wrong though :yes:

[onearmedbandit]

Maybe it was a conspiracy. Maybe those 29 miners were actually all about to blow the whistle on some dirty doings by the CEO so they put them all together on a 'shift', sent them down there and then blew the place up. Realising that they may have survived, they executed another 3 explosions to ensure their silence. Then, on the pretence of 'rescuing the bodies' with the 'gag' unit, they pumped the place full of dangerous gases, then declared it unsafe to enter, but only after first sealing it forever.

People, this is why no rescue was ever mounted. The 'experts', 'engineers', 'rescue crews' etc were all in on it. They succeeded with the attacks on the twin towers, don't let them get away with Pike river.

[Headbanger]

Ah huh, and your post is like saying "Calling all flamers to tell me what a silly bitch I am".

Wait a god damn minute, she maybe hot.

[Pixie]

It seems to me from a quick obervation that he could well lose all the goodwill he earned when it all happened. I agree that the time has to come when a decision is made to give up trying to recover the bodies, and from what I understand from talking to someone who knows about these things all that is likely to be found will be fragments of bone, but I think the decision was made poorly.

It seems from what I have read on the net that the families received little warning and were not consulted with adequately. They are being quoted as saying that they weren't ready to give up looking and they are planning to contract an expert to provide a report when 3 of these have already been prepared. If they are willing to spend that kind of money it would suggest that they weren't aware of the other reports given they were apparently unequivocal.

So they're up in arms, and this could cost Key big time. Be interesting to see what his spin doctors do.

No kidding?
Only in NZ do you get the Police in charge of a mining recovery operation (when they can't even figure out how to work a gun or a car correctly) and talking like they know their arse from a hole in the ground.The consultants from overseas were wondering what the fuck kind of mickey mouse country they had arrived in.

[Pixie]

the only thing I don't understand, and i'm an expert, because I watched the chilean mine disaster on TV, is why instead of trying to clear 2kms of shaft with an engine, they didn't just drill down to the area from above a la chile. I'm sure there must be a perfectly good explanation for that.

If it's not a case of $$$, then why have they stopped after all this time? I would have thought, JK being such a smart man, that he would have spoken with the families and explained that they would continue for another week and if no progress was made, then they'd seal it. JK should have made the initial announcement, not Broad.
The Chilean mine didn't have a fire in it (apart from the risk of fire from Jose's refried bean farts)

[Coldrider]

The chilian mine was of gold and copper.

[Kookie]

It's humorous, and scary, to think a person can become an expert, after watching it on TV. :shutup:

[Banditbandit]

It was really the only logical thing to do, but the validity of the decision is not in question, rather how Key's publicity people handled it.

He had little to do with the decision, but because of his involvement at the begiining and the masterful way he worked the crowds and came down to the level of the community he is therefore linked to the decision. Despite him having little or nothing to do with it, he was linked so needed to manage how the decision was made and fed to the families.

He held a press conference where he announced the decision, which was entirely appropriate and now he is being accused of breaking promises and there is a potential "he says - she says" scenario with grieving familes, and that's a battle he will not win.

It would have been wiser to involve the familes in the decision making process, make them privy to the reports of the experts and managed them to the point where they felt included and able to accept the decision.

Fro the families, there is no easy way to release the decision ... for the rest of us "experts" ... it's none of our business

[Banditbandit]

Let's face it. No-one's ever going to give the Tories an easy time on the West Coast.

They gave the tories enough votes to elect on as MP

[Banditbandit]

Wait a god dome minute, she maybe hot.

A lot of "hot" woman are dumb, silly bitches ... Paris Hilton for example ...

[SPman]

From the Standard

You would think that, to reassure the families and satisfy critics, the government would have released detailed technical analysis showing why re-entering Pike River will never be possible. Instead, we got vague, contradictory statements only after the media pressed Key for answers. Now, a mining expert has confirmed the mine’s atmosphere is stable and can be made breathable cheaply.
Here’s the key passages from the Press article (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/4547048/Pike-River-mine-not-safe-to-enter-expert):

Mine safety expert Dr David Cliff, of the University of Queensland, said that while the atmosphere in the West Coast mine had improved, to say it was safe to enter was a “quantum leap”.
Cliff was among the experts consulted by police before last week’s announcement that the mine would be sealed.
He said there had been a “marked improvement” in the mine atmosphere over the past few days.
“The atmosphere is now inert without the use of the GAG [Gorniczy Agregat Gasniczy],” Cliff said.
“It’s not capable of supporting combustion. It’s full of methane, as far as we can detect. …
The mine’s atmosphere was close to 100 per cent methane, with oxygen excluded, he said.
“Therefore it’s a dramatic improvement. There’s no active ignition sources in the mine, most probably, but we still don’t know for sure.”
If conditions were maintained, there would be “no more explosions”, Cliff said.
“The atmosphere is one part of the equation – there’s the mining conditions, it is the logistics of re-entering up a single tunnel that is 2.5-kilometres long into unknown conditions – these are the sort of factors bearing on people’s minds.”
Bore holes would be required to stabilise the mine, at a cost of $250,000 each.
Pike River Families Committee spokesman Bernie Monk said they had had no information.
“The main thing is to get our loved ones out.
“Number two, we need the proper information to go to the coroner at the end of the month.
“Number three, we need to get in there to find out the truth of what has happened. We don’t want any hearsay,” Monk said.”
So, the mine isn’t safe but there’s no more burning and no more ignition source to re-start the burning because lack of oxygen has put the fire out. It’s not yet safe to enter but a few quarter of boreholes at quarter of a million a pop – so the methane is let out and normal atmosphere in – and the following goals can be achieved: remains can be recovered, evidence in the mine can be examined, a potentially dangerous concentration of methane on DoC land can be eliminated and, possibly, the process of getting the mine back into operation can begin. Seems pretty cheap.
This makes the government’s inadequately explained decision to halt the process even odder.
Odd too, is Gerry Brownlee’s insistence that the receivers decide by the end of today what they will do with the mine. As the Press’s editorial asks (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/editorials/4546998/Editorial-Further-mine-pain), ‘what’s the rush?’. Another way of asking that question is ‘who benefits from rushing the receivers into a decision?’.
I don’t know. I can’t puzzle it out. I just can’t see any motive for the government’s bizarre behaviour, unless it really is about cost and the government set a limit of $5 million which has now been reached.
But I do know that if the government was telling us the whole story then everything would be out in the open and above board – we wouldn’t have ministers ducking from the media and giving vague, shifting answers.

Once again, if Pollies were actually up front with all the facts and treated people as adults, who can understand whats going on, maybe they wouldn't appear to be despicable weasly little pricks, all the time!

[shrub]

Fro the families, there is no easy way to release the decision ... for the rest of us "experts" ... it's none of our business

I disagree, the ability of our PM to run the country is every bit our business. And bloody interesting - I heard him described today (by a politician) as being "a little directionless and lacking any real ideological position on anything" and wanting to be liked by everyone, so he says what people want to hear. Hence his silly idea of promising the miners families to get the bodies out:niceone:

[avgas]

Fro the families, there is no easy way to release the decision ... for the rest of us "experts" ... it's none of our business
What he said.
Talked to the old man over Christmas about it. I am so happy he left that job when he did, otherwise he would be on that list. He even admitted that if he was there there would be another 20 names on that list (he's a real hardarse to work for).

You won't ever hear the words from the actual experts on this one. But needless to say - none of them will go within 100miles of Pike River, and would not trust a single lie comming out of Peter Whittall mouth.
The guy is a snake, and the job was a disaster waiting to happen.

[Kookie]

the ability of our PM to run the country is every bit our business.

Absolutely true, and if we don't make it our business, we can't whinge and whine, when the PM elect, does something we don't agree with.
I sure as hell wouldn't want to have been in John's shoes, when this whole sad mess occurred.

[shrub]

Absolutely true, and if we don't make it our business, we can't whinge and whine, when the PM elect, does something we don't agree with.
I sure as hell wouldn't want to have been in John's shoes, when this whole sad mess occurred.

He started well and could easily have built capital, but I get the feeling he had lost interest in Pike River, so instead of following through on the same path he'd started on he blew it. Probably minor, but it's a crack, and if Labour et al are clever they can capitalise on it and turn it into an advantage coming up to the election. Mark my words, this isn't the last we've seen of this.

And don't feel sorry for Key, he chose to run for PM and if he can't hack it then maybe he should go back to forex trading.

[Gibbo89]

they should have sealed the mine weeks ago, there will be nothing left of the miners to recover. whats key supposed to do?? he isnt running the operation


+1 :niceone:

John Key's rep should not be judged on this tragedy, shark tooth fella and the cop in charge (don't remember the names) are to be investigated. It will be interesting to see what the inquiry comes up with.

[jonbuoy]

If a coal fire has been raging down their for weeks haven´t the bodies already been cremated?

[Mully]

They gave the tories enough votes to elect on as MP

I thought Damien O'Connor (sp?) was the local MP?? He was certainly on TV enough when it happened.


A lot of "hot" woman are dumb, silly bitches ... Paris Hilton for example ...

You think Paris Hilton is hot? On what planet?

[terbang]

they should have sealed the mine weeks ago, there will be nothing left of the miners to recover. whats key supposed to do?? he isnt running the operation

True, but why all the grandstanding in the first place saying that he was going to get them out. Tends to give the impression that he wanted to have something to do with running it.

[mashman]

True, but why all the grandstanding in the first place saying that he was going to get them out. Tends to give the impression that he wanted to have something to do with running it.

He probably expected it to be as simple as shifting a few rocks and pulling the bodies out (didn't we all?)... and seemed quite prepared to take the kudos... ooops

[Pussy]

Damien O'Connor WAS conspicous by his absence.

[Mully]

Damien O'Connor WAS conspicous by his absence.

Not on the first day - IIRC, he was on TV3 news and Campbell Live.

Busy being an attention whore about how hard he was working. Same newscast that Andrew Little (??!!) was on.

[Pussy]

Not on the first day - IIRC, he was on TV3 news and Campbell Live.

Busy being an attention whore about how hard he was working. Same newscast that Andrew Little (??!!) was on.

IIRC.... he lost the seat in the last election, too! In the birthplace of the labour party.....

[Mully]

IIRC.... he lost the seat in the last election, too! In the birthplace of the labour party.....

I think you're right. He appears to be a list MP.

How many of these leeches have you never heard of:

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/MPs/MPs/

[Kookie]

He started well and could easily have built capital, but I get the feeling he had lost interest in Pike River

I agree.. It seems as though he put Pike River in the too hard basket and has ended up swimming in custard.. I also agree, that this is probably just the leverage Labour needs to take back the top seats.
Feels like we're on a merry go round, and I'm getting a little dizzy.

[tri boy]

The money wasted on the recovery, (however many millions that is up to) could have gone towardws the miners families,and a decent memorial where their great grandchildren could grieve/get there head around the whole sorry affair.
MHO
(oh, receivers are leachers, heartless bastids, they should be offered as sacrifice to the mine)

[Banditbandit]

I disagree, the ability of our PM to run the country is every bit our business. And bloody interesting - I heard him described today (by a politician) as being "a little directionless and lacking any real ideological position on anything" and wanting to be liked by everyone, so he says what people want to hear. Hence his silly idea of promising the miners families to get the bodies out:niceone:

I did not say that the ability for John Key to run the country was none of our business - I said the fate of the bodies in the mine was none of our business ...

And yes, I agree, he is a spineless, directionless dickhead with no politicial ideology .. what did you wexpect ??? He was a currency trader ... and I totally agree that that is our business ....

[Banditbandit]

I thought Damien O'Connor (sp?) was the local MP?? He was certainly on TV enough when it happened.



You think Paris Hilton is hot? On what planet?


I think you're right. He appears to be a list MP.

How many of these leeches have you never heard of:

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/MPs/MPs/

Jeez mate .. you want to comment on politics but don't even know who the MPs are or where they are from (List/Electorate) ... about the usual KB standards I guess ...

Yes, I think Paris Hilton is Hot ... but I won't fuck her ... very nice until she opens that fucken mouth and whines away ... that was my point - hot body but fucken brainless ...

I wouldn't be too worried by your opionion .. on KB AND a fan of The Office ... what more can I say ...

[Banditbandit]

What he said.
Talked to the old man over Christmas about it. I am so happy he left that job when he did, otherwise he would be on that list. He even admitted that if he was there there would be another 20 names on that list (he's a real hardarse to work for).

You won't ever hear the words from the actual experts on this one. But needless to say - none of them will go within 100miles of Pike River, and would not trust a single lie comming out of Peter Whittall mouth.
The guy is a snake, and the job was a disaster waiting to happen.

A relation missed out on a job with Pike River last year .. he's very pleased now they didn't give it to him ...

[mashman]

Fuck it, whilst I'm at it. Something for the too hard basket. The mine is inert, or so they say. Brownnose, i mean Brownlee says walking down a 2.3 km tunnel filled with methane is all but "impossible". Probably not wrong for a change. So why not bore down a la Chile. Don't shoot, there's more, then you can explain why it isn't possible... i don't mind being told things won't work and that i'm a complete fuckwit... Edison found 1500 ways not to make a light bulb...

Anyhoo, would it be possible to drill down to within, say 100 metres of where the bodies are supposed to be, then put in one of those "cleansing chambers", the ones that scientists use for keeping bad things in and keeping the outer atmoshpere out, then continue drilling until they break through? all without sparking another explosion?

If this was possible a Royal Commission could do their thing relatively easily without the need for walking 2.3km's and they may actually find some form of remains, however unlikely, but at least the families would have some form of closure. Don't be afraid, i'm curious as to why this wouldn't work.

I come in peace, shoot to kill...

[JimO]

there wont be any bodies the mine is a giant crematorium

[mashman]

there wont be any bodies the mine is a giant crematorium

hence the however unlikely bit... but it's worth knowing for sure? I'd certainly like to know, if only to prevent similar occurences at other mines.

[shrub]

hence the however unlikely bit... but it's worth knowing for sure? I'd certainly like to know, if only to prevent similar occurences at other mines.

I was chatting to a chap who has worked in mines the other day, and he reckons that the heat was such that all they'll find will be ash, dust, barely recognisable machines and rocks. The chances of getting any evidence of anything are about the same as me shagging Paris Hilton.

Coal mines are inherently dangerous and have a bad habit of exploding. There is an increasingly strong argument for leaving coal underground until we have developed ways of extracting it that don't involve sending people 2.3kms down a tunnel, and more importantly ways of using the stored energy that don't involve dumping a brazillion tonnes of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

When the technology to extract that energy cleanly has been developed our coal will be worth a shitload more than it is now, so let's leave it in the bank until it's worth more and does less damage to the environment.

[Kookie]

I said the fate of the bodies in the mine was none of our business ...

I'm of the opinion, that it should be our business, as a nation. The way this has been handled, kind of sets a precedent, and I for one, would like to know that the families (and country) get some answers, and closure. I'd also like to see this as a massive learning experience, and would hope the nation takes away insight, that will ensure any such future disaster does not occur, or is handled much much better.

While hindsight can be a dangerous thing, it can also be a valuable tool.

[oneofsix]

I'm of the opinion, that it should be our business, as a nation. The way this has been handled, kind of sets a precedent, and I for one, would like to know that the families (and country) get some answers, and closure. I'd also like to see this as a massive learning experience, and would hope the nation takes away insight, that will ensure any such future disaster does not occur, or is handled much much better.

While hindsight can be a dangerous thing, it can also be a valuable tool.

It is conjecture as to if going into the mine will provide any evidence until someone or something does. Until there is a willingness to try the technology will not be developed.
The Chilian miners were considered dead until discovered otherwise, the guy dug out of the mud in Aussie should have been dead as well. So perhaps evidence as to what happened is still there.

[Banditbandit]

I'm of the opinion, that it should be our business, as a nation. The way this has been handled, kind of sets a precedent, and I for one, would like to know that the families (and country) get some answers, and closure. I'd also like to see this as a massive learning experience, and would hope the nation takes away insight, that will ensure any such future disaster does not occur, or is handled much much better.

While hindsight can be a dangerous thing, it can also be a valuable tool.


It is conjecture as to if going into the mine will provide any evidence until someone or something does. Until there is a willingness to try the technology will not be developed.
The Chilian miners were considered dead until discovered otherwise, the guy dug out of the mud in Aussie should have been dead as well. So perhaps evidence as to what happened is still there.


Unfortunately for the families, the closure they want may not be possible.

The mine has been on fire with temperatures around 1,000 degrees. How many bodies do you think are left? Maybe bone fragments if we are lucky. Probably not any DNA to make identification of the fragments.

It's a coal mine and the coal has been on fire. That's not just piles of coal ... that's the walls, roof, and pillars they've left ... everything! How safe do you think the walls are? Is the remaining burnt coal wall and roof going to collapse on people going in and kill them too? Has it already collapsed? There might not be any tunnels left 2.3 ks underground ...

The mine is full of methane - you'd need the equivalent of a space suit to go down there and have a chance of getting out alive ...

It's true that we won't really know unless someone goes to look ... there's certainly a willingness to try - but how long will it take to develop the technology to allow that to happen - sure we have spacesuits (do you think NASA will loan us one or three?) But what about the safety of the burnt coal wallsand roof?

Maybe the learning is that we can't know everthing and we can not do everything. That's a hard thing to learn in a culture which creates the illusion that it can use technology to do anything and give us answers to everything ...

Maybe the learning is that we shouldn't be tunnel mining coal, especially coal as dangerous as the Brunner Seam ...

And maybe the learning is that sometimes thing go very wrong and people don't come back ...

[oneofsix]

Unfortunately for the families, the closure they want may not be possible.

The mine has been on fire with temperatures around 1,000 degrees. How many bodies do you think are left? Maybe bone fragments if we are lucky. Probably not any DNA to make identification of the fragments.

It's a coal mine and the coal has been on fire. That's not just piles of coal ... that's the walls, roof, and pillars they've left ... everything! How safe do you think the walls are? Is the remaining burnt coal wall and roof going to collapse on people going in and kill them too? Has it already collapsed? There might not be any tunnels left 2.3 ks underground ...

The mine is full of methane - you'd need the equivalent of a space suit to go down there and have a chance of getting out alive ...

It's true that we won't really know unless someone goes to look ... there's certainly a willingness to try - but how long will it take to develop the technology to allow that to happen - sure we have spacesuits (do you think NASA will loan us one or three?) But what about the safety of the burnt coal wallsand roof?

Maybe the learning is that we can't know everthing and we can not do everything. That's a hard thing to learn in a culture which creates the illusion that it can use technology to do anything and give us answers to everything ...

Maybe the learning is that we shouldn't be tunnel mining coal, especially coal as dangerous as the Brunner Seam ...

And maybe the learning is that sometimes thing go very wrong and people don't come back ...

Good points, time to let go. Some of the families already have and retrieving anything in the unlikely event there is something isn't going to help much. I had expected this from the start just didn't want it :facepalm:

[terbang]

Watching the announcements on TV certainly showed a contradiction of intentions to me.

The Police, saying that the mine was to be closed and that the remains of the miners were not to be recovered, handed over to the receivers who after some muttering about how sad they were indicated that they were still considering the recovery of the billions worth of coal that is trapped there.
:corn:

[avgas]

He started well and could easily have built capital
Bullshit.
Anyone with any knowledge would have told you that day 1 after that explosion, there was not a chance in hell it was possible to get down there in the next 6 months.
Anyone saying otherwise, saying "oh we will save them" is trying to shine limelight down a deep fucking hole.

Key said what people wanted to hear. Absolute bullshit.
From recall he did the same at the start of the financial crisis.
Honesty is a pessimists game these day, optimists are a politicians game.

[avgas]

Watching the announcements on TV certainly showed a contradiction of intentions to me.

The Police, saying that the mine was to be closed and that the remains of the miners were not to be recovered, handed over to the receivers who after some muttering about how sad they were indicated that they were still considering the recovery of the billions worth of coal that is trapped there.
:corn:
This is actually doable.
Seal the mine for 6 months - to a year. And the methane will push past that magic 15%. Then the mine is inert and can be mined again provided damp heat (self-combusting coal) tests are all good.

Who knows - mabey next time they will do it right and do what the engineering drawings say they should do (like more vent shafts) and stop paying off the Mines Commission (which is the cheaper option).

Who am I kidding, there is no such thing as legit mining in NZ....

[shrub]

Bullshit.
Anyone with any knowledge would have told you that day 1 after that explosion, there was not a chance in hell it was possible to get down there in the next 6 months.
Anyone saying otherwise, saying "oh we will save them" is trying to shine limelight down a deep fucking hole.

Key said what people wanted to hear. Absolute bullshit.
From recall he did the same at the start of the financial crisis.
Honesty is a pessimists game these day, optimists are a politicians game.

Sorry, it's you who are bullshitting (and using a strawman argument while you're at it).
Yes, it was obvious from day one they had all died. The day after the first explosion I was talking to a guy in a gas station in Blenheim who had worked there and knew most of the miners, and he told me they were all dead and that was the reason there was no urgency in the rescue. Why put people at risk to bring out a corpse?

John Key has a wonderful talent for saying what people want to hear which is why he is so popular despite having achieved virtually nothing in over 2 years in power (aside from the cycle track that is). At the start of the financial crisis he said virtually nothing and displayed a complete absence of ideas or even much of an understanding of what was happening. He's a great guy and has a lovely smile, but he's as shallow as a puddle.

[Banditbandit]

He's a great guy and has a lovely smile, but he's as shallow as a puddle.

Shit - I didn't think he was that deep ...

[shrub]

Shit - I didn't think he was that deep ...

Not a Queensland puddle, more the puddle in the driveway after i've washed my bike