Auckland Grammar first state school to reject NCEA exams

[mashman]

A state school (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8657815/auckland-grammar-first-state-school-to-rejects-ncea-exams/)... don't they have a curriculum that they're supposed to follow?

[Mully]

Are they a proper State School? I thought they were one of them 50/50 jobs. A lot of the Private ones have been dropping NCEA for Cambridge.....

I like this bit:


The school would allow some exceptions by letting weaker students sit NCEA English and maths exams, the newspaper reported

Excellent.

[mashman]

Are they a proper State School? I thought they were one of them 50/50 jobs. A lot of the Private ones have been dropping NCEA for Cambridge.....


Dunno. I would have thought a school would have to be one or the other...

yeah i saw that bit and wondered if it would come down to drawing straws for the Cambridge exam places. Can't imagine the parents of those "weaker" kids will take too kindly to the label... isn't it all about genetics :blink:

[Swoop]

Fucking SUPERB.

May LOTS of other schools follow!

[Oakie]

Interviewed tonight the principal said that the Cambridge model demands continual effort while with NCEA being internally assessed thru the year, the boys get enough credits to pass then stop working.

[PrincessBandit]

We are constantly pressured to keep students "motivated to keep learning" through to the end of the year, despite them already having achieved sufficient credits for NCEA. I mean honestly, how many kids are going to keep working their butts off when they've already met the requirements? A bit like banging your head against a brick wall really. It's quite something to be told "I don't want to do this - I already have enough credits so I'm not gonna..." Oh joy.

[rebel]

Good, NCEA was only bought in for the lowest common denominator typical of our PC Govts. Its just not right these days if someone gets a 90% while the shit fight who puts in minimal effort gets 55%. They want us all to achieve and live in a idealistic world, too bad reality bites us in the arse sooner or later.

[Jantar]

... I mean honestly, how many kids are going to keep working their butts off when they've already met the requirements? ....
That was the attititude of 2 of my 3 kids. Bring back a comprehensive end of year exam that really tests how much knowledge and ability the student has retained long term rather than just long enough to be assessed.

[SPman]

Good, NCEA was only bought in for the lowest common denominator typical of our PC Govts. Its just not right these days if someone gets a 90% while the shit fight who puts in minimal effort gets 55%. They want us all to achieve and live in a idealistic world, too bad reality bites us in the arse sooner or later.
What's wrong with a 55% pass...it used to be called a "gentlemans pass" at uni.....do enough work to get through your exams, but not so much that you forgo a comprehensive social life........:msn-wink:

[EJK]

What's so bad about NCEA? Someone enlighten me? I went through it with no probs.

[Jantar]

... I went through it with no probs.
And that is the problem. :bleh:

[ellipsis]

...bloody good...at last, somebody saying, no, to their namby pamby, everyones a winner pc bullshit...I hope it opens the gate and a lot more follow...

[Banditbandit]

Fucking SUPERB.

May LOTS of other schools follow!


Good, NCEA was only bought in for the lowest common denominator typical of our PC Govts. Its just not right these days if someone gets a 90% while the shit fight who puts in minimal effort gets 55%. They want us all to achieve and live in a idealistic world, too bad reality bites us in the arse sooner or later.


...bloody good...at last, somebody saying, no, to their namby pamby, everyones a winner pc bullshit...I hope it opens the gate and a lot more follow...


Why is this school looking to tests from a country that is ranked 13th in the OECD education stats for student achievement - when good old Godzone is rated fourth ?

http://www.geographic.org/country_ranks/educational_score_performance_country_ranks_2009_o ecd.html

Do you want to drop us down that list? Our kids are achieving more in school in readings, maths and science than the Brits ... or the US which comes in at 33rd ...

[rapid van cleef]

Why is this school looking to tests from a country that is ranked 13th in the OECD education stats for student achievement - when good old Godzone is rated fourth ?

http://www.geographic.org/country_ranks/educational_score_performance_country_ranks_2009_o ecd.html

Do you want to drop us down that list? Our kids are achieving more in school in readings, maths and science than the Brits ... or the US which comes in at 33rd ...

what data are those results based upon?

i can tell you first hand that from my experience of teaching in the uk for 8 years and here for 4 years that the there is no parity of equivalent standards of testing at same age/ school levels. the actual difficulty of the work a 16 yr old student here does compared to a 16 yr old uk student is much easier.

thats not a reflection on the students, its the system, which again is not the teachers, its the government standards.

now to be shot down in flames i pressume.

[SMOKEU]

NCEA is one of the most bullshit systems I've come across.

[avgas]

reflection on the students
Actually it is. I find many students these days incredibly stupid.
There is a lack of willing to learn with a lot of them. They are more focused on a reward.

This has only changed in the last 15 years as well.

Its only a matter of time until kids start dieing while being exceptionally stupid.

[avgas]

NCEA is one of the most bullshit systems I've come across.
What is the best system you have come across?
No offense - but you seem rather young to have seen many bullshit systems. NCEA is not bad when I compare it to some of the bullshit systems out there.

[MSTRS]

NCEA - another great idea in theory, that is absolute crap in reality, and brought to you those who went through the system that taught spelling, grammar and arithmetic are not very important.

[oneofsix]

NCEA - another great idea in theory, that is absolute crap in reality, and brought to you those who went through the system that taught spelling, grammar and arithmetic are not very important.

Having argued with one of its supporters before it was invoked their main reason for NCEA was that it removed the failure stigma of the old school c and UE systems.
Having raised kids whilst the system is being introduced, last one just got her results, I can tell you the kids had a handle on the pass fail long before the teachers even understood how NCEA worked.
NCEA has potential but not enough resource or understanding to make it work. You would have to dismantle the "year" (used to be form) system before it gets close.
Also the way achieved, merit and excellent is decided is screwed. If you get very thing right except the merit question then you don't get a merit but if you only get 70% right and it includes the merit question then you get the merit. I prefer the old A,B,C, based on percentage of correct answers.

[mashman]

What's wrong with a 55% pass...it used to be called a "gentlemans pass" at uni.....do enough work to get through your exams, but not so much that you forgo a comprehensive social life........:msn-wink:

i'm familiar with that style of education :) after all, a degree is a degree, gents pass or not.

[SMOKEU]

What is the best system you have come across?
No offense - but you seem rather young to have seen many bullshit systems. NCEA is not bad when I compare it to some of the bullshit systems out there.

I haven't come across any other systems, but the general idea when it comes to the actual exams and the marking criteria leaves a lot to be desired. I have gone through the NCEA system as recently as last year.

[Banditbandit]

what data are those results based upon?

i can tell you first hand that from my experience of teaching in the uk for 8 years and here for 4 years that the there is no parity of equivalent standards of testing at same age/ school levels. the actual difficulty of the work a 16 yr old student here does compared to a 16 yr old uk student is much easier.

thats not a reflection on the students, its the system, which again is not the teachers, its the government standards.

now to be shot down in flames i pressume.

I believe (tho' I could be wrong) that the OECD people come into the country and random sample with their own tests =- it is not based on the results of the country's own education system ...

I'm not going to shoot you down in flames - I have only ever taught tertiary level in New Zealand - you've experienced our system and the UK system and I value your comment that difficulty of work of a 16-year-old in Britain is higher than the average 16-year-old in New Zealand ...


Having argued with one of its supporters before it was invoked their main reason for NCEA was that it removed the failure stigma of the old school c and UE systems.
Having raised kids whilst the system is being introduced, last one just got her results, I can tell you the kids had a handle on the pass fail long before the teachers even understood how NCEA worked.
NCEA has potential but not enough resource or understanding to make it work. You would have to dismantle the "year" (used to be form) system before it gets close.
Also the way achieved, merit and excellent is decided is screwed. If you get very thing right except the merit question then you don't get a merit but if you only get 70% right and it includes the merit question then you get the merit. I prefer the old A,B,C, based on percentage of correct answers.

I'm inclined to agree. NCEA was a great idea poorly executed.

The idea was the recognize what students achieved rather than focus on pass/fail. From a Māori perspective, many of our children "failed" at school .. and carry that sense of failure their whole lives. I went through high school under the old School Cert/Uni entrance system - if a studnet failed School Cert they "failed" .. and had to repeat a whole year. Many of our chidlren "failed" and did not get the opportunity to try again... the system didn't recognise what they had learnt.

Under the NCEA system, student learning can be recognized - even if that is only half a year's worth of learning.

There are two issues I see - one you've highlighted - in the schools, and better execution would have helped.

The second issue is the recognition of the system by employers and the rest of the country. It was badly introduced, badly marketed and poorly explained. If that had been handled better, we might have more acceptance of the system, especially by employers.

[Banditbandit]

Actually it is. I find many students these days incredibly stupid.
There is a lack of willing to learn with a lot of them. They are more focused on a reward.

This has only changed in the last 15 years as well.

Its only a matter of time until kids start dieing while being exceptionally stupid.

The focus on the reward is a complete result of neo-liberal economics ... and education is just another commodity in the market place ... the neo-liberal Labour Party of the 1980s is the starting point ...

[Banditbandit]

What is the best system you have come across?
No offense - but you seem rather young to have seen many bullshit systems. NCEA is not bad when I compare it to some of the bullshit systems out there.


I haven't come across any other systems, but the general idea when it comes to the actual exams and the marking criteria leaves a lot to be desired. I have gone through the NCEA system as recently as last year.

Teenagers aways think "The system is bullshit" ... it's a reflection on the nature of teenagers, rather than a reflection on the system ... any system ...

[avgas]

The focus on the reward is a complete result of neo-liberal economics ... and education is just another commodity in the market place ... the neo-liberal Labour Party of the 1980s is the starting point ...

Don't get me wrong - I like the concept of a reward (I mean we all need one really).

But there is no emphasis on what that reward is, so kids naturally think its money. So when they don't get money - they give up.

Perhaps my old man, was old school - but I could get caught with drugs, get speeding tickets etc all these things were bad and I got punished. But if I started to fail at school.......hell was paid with gst on top.

Eventually I clicked it was not the fact that I was learning something, but that I was learning how to learn. But until that point - the reward was not to get my arse kicked.

[HenryDorsetCase]

That was the attititude of 2 of my 3 kids. Bring back a comprehensive end of year exam that really tests how much knowledge and ability the student has retained long term rather than just long enough to be assessed.

have you ever actually done an exam? Its about the worst tool for long term retention I can think of: all anyone* does is cruise, then panic, then cram like crazy, then IMMEDIATELY forget whatever they crammed because they're cramming for the next exam.

the NCEA thing should in my view be structured so that you can't get "enough" credits through the year: you have to do OK on the exam as well to pass. bada boom, bada bing, easy.


*well, OK, me.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The second issue is the recognition of the system by employers and the rest of the country. It was badly introduced, badly marketed and poorly explained. If that had been handled better, we might have more acceptance of the system, especially by employers.

I vividly remember interviewing for our last office junior a couple years back. I had to ask her what the grades were, what they meant, and what the equivalencies were. The job actually went to the one who explained it best, and she was brilliant. She has now left us for the next step in her career, but she was teh best we've ever had.

[HenryDorsetCase]

What is the best system you have come across?
No offense - but you seem rather young to have seen many bullshit systems. NCEA is not bad when I compare it to some of the bullshit systems out there.

that was fine apart from the "no offence"

[Jantar]

have you ever actually done an exam? .....
As a student of the 60s and 70s have I ever done an exam? Probably more than you have had hot breakfasts. And NO, I didn't cram at the last minute except twice in the 5th form and those two subjects ended up being the ones I did worst at. Maybe some students can scrape through an exam by cramming at the last minute, but they would be the ones who haven't learnt enough of their subject matter to proceed on to the next level. Those who crammed at the last minute and got reasonable pass marks would probably have passed without the cramming.

There is a reason why, back then, you could pass a subject at university wit a C- grade but not be permitted to proceed. It recognised that some students did just enough work to get that basic pass but didn't know enogh to be permitted to go any further.

[Banditbandit]

I vividly remember interviewing for our last office junior a couple years back. I had to ask her what the grades were, what they meant, and what the equivalencies were. The job actually went to the one who explained it best, and she was brilliant. She has now left us for the next step in her career, but she was teh best we've ever had.

Sounds like a good way to make the choice .. pick someone who knows exactly what they have done - then they might actually know what they are doing ...

[StephenG]

Don't get me wrong - I like the concept of a reward (I mean we all need one really).

But there is no emphasis on what that reward is, so kids naturally think its money. So when they don't get money - they give up.

Going slightly off-topic...

[SMOKEU]

Teenagers aways think "The system is bullshit" ... it's a reflection on the nature of teenagers, rather than a reflection on the system ... any system ...

Yeah, but I'm not a teenager.

[Gibbo89]

NCEA is not a good system at all, I remember at school there was the subject 'Agriculture' and some fella told me that if you could reverse a quad bike with a trailer attached, through some cones; you'd score yourself something like 4 credits. Yet, you could go sit a probability exam that was say an hour long, and only get 3 credits.

Also, I remember a few years a go there was a news item on Campbell or Sainsbury's show where school students gained credits by picking up rubbish.

Have a read of thishttp://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/news/2417397/Outcry-over-easy-NCEA-standards

[MSTRS]

Also, I remember a few years a go there was a news item on Campbell or Sainsbury's show where school students gained credits by picking up rubbish.


Yep...the world famous Cambridge system...:devil2:

[oneofsix]

NCEA is not a good system at all, I remember at school there was the subject 'Agriculture' and some fella told me that if you could reverse a quad bike with a trailer attached, through some cones; you'd score yourself something like 4 credits. Yet, you could go sit a probability exam that was say an hour long, and only get 3 credits.

Also, I remember a few years a go there was a news item on Campbell or Sainsbury's show where school students gained credits by picking up rubbish.

Have a read of thishttp://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/news/2417397/Outcry-over-easy-NCEA-standards

Credits for picking up rubbish got the principal sacked, caused scandal (how else did our investigative reporters find out about it?).
the credits apply to the subject like any other system so 4 ag credits might be worth more to a farmer than 3 statistics credits. The trouble is that the 4 ag credits means that kid is 1 credit and a lot less work closure to saying they have Level x NCEA than the kid that did the 3 stats credits - IMHO

[Banditbandit]

Yeah, but I'm not a teenager.

If you did NCEA stuff in 2010 then good chance you're a teenager ... if you're doing NCEA last year and you're older than that ... then you go figure what you are (or maybe you're not bright enough to figure it out ...)

[Banditbandit]

Credits for picking up rubbish got the principal sacked, caused scandal (how else did our investigative reporters find out about it?).
the credits apply to the subject like any other system so 4 ag credits might be worth more to a farmer than 3 statistics credits. The trouble is that the 4 ag credits means that kid is 1 credit and a lot less work closure to saying they have Level x NCEA than the kid that did the 3 stats credits - IMHO

Yes and No . it depends what people want a high school qqualification to tell them ...

Unlike School Certificate, holding a level 2 or 3 NCEA bit of paper is meaningless in itself - an employer has to know what the credits are in ... and that's a hassle for a hard working employer looking at recruiting as they haven't got time to have an indepth look at NCEA bits of paper ...

At tertiary level all our programmes specify which NCEA credits and at what levels are required for entry - a simple 80 credits is not enough as they can be in subjects which are fucking useless preparation for tertiary study.

[oneofsix]

Yes and No . it depends what people want a high school qqualification to tell them ...

Unlike School Certificate, holding a level 2 or 3 NCEA bit of paper is meaningless in itself - an employer has to know what the credits are in ... and that's a hassle for a hard working employer looking at recruiting as they haven't got time to have an indepth look at NCEA bits of paper ...

yeah I will concede that, its hard enough for a parent and probably why more parents seem to be less interested in their kids schooling. The parents aren't less interested, just too confused, well some anyhow.

[HenryDorsetCase]

As a student of the 60s and 70s have I ever done an exam? Probably more than you have had hot breakfasts.

I dunno, I've had a LOT of hot breakfasts..........


mmmmm breakfast...........................

gaqo2IhH4kw

[Little Miss Trouble]

I have both School Cert and NCEA. My teachers saw that my year group were going to be the first to be lumped with 'testing out the system' so us 'gifted' students were given the opportunity to sit School C in fourth form, err, year 10. Unfortunately for some stupid reason, instead of then allowing us to continue on to 6th form level we had to sit NCEA level 1 :weird:

[Squiggles]

Only a few years ago I watched half my mates bomb in Cambridge AS at that very school (They were in the upper streams too).

[SMOKEU]

If you did NCEA stuff in 2010 then good chance you're a teenager ... if you're doing NCEA last year and you're older than that ... then you go figure what you are (or maybe you're not bright enough to figure it out ...)

Plenty of adults go back to school to do NCEA stuff. Maybe you're not bright enough to figure that out for yourself.

[avgas]

that was fine apart from the "no offense"
Yeah its ironic that, that line has been taken out of context in last few years.

What I should have said so it was not misconstrued would be "We think of you as young , take this as a compliment"

[avgas]

Sounds like a good way to make the choice .. pick someone who knows exactly what they have done - then they might actually know what they are doing ...
Tis the sad truth with employers these days though. If you don't act "type a" you don't get the job.

When I think back to the last few jobs I got, in the interview I was a real prick - even demanded more money. But I never got the jobs I really wanted because in those I did not sound confident enough.

But then again from what I have learnt from the whole HR process - many who work in or deal with HR (especially in recruitment) should not even be near the process. But their role/position put them there.

[PrincessBandit]

I don't mind the internal assessment stuff as some people do best in that situation - they are good students but "lose it" in exam pressure. I think there is room for both.

What I have found at training college is that we are supposed to get students to move higher up Bloom's taxonomy, getting away from the "regurgitate from memory" data (memorisation being the lowest level on the scale) to creative thinking and self-driven exploration and working things out for themselves. The problem with that it places a low priority on being able to memorise things for future recall, quite an important ability I would have thought!

[Banditbandit]

Bloom's taxonomy,



Now ... those two words right there are a conversation stopper in KB ...

And one of the biggest problems we face is that who needs memorization when we have Google and Wikipedia ... Why go to courses ? All you need to know is on the net ... once upon a time they taught us all the times tables by rote .. then they invented hand calculators .. now we can surf the net from cellphones ...

[Banditbandit]

Plenty of adults go back to school to do NCEA stuff. Maybe you're not bright enough to figure that out for yourself.

That's true - adults do go back to do NCEA .... but there are other and better options once you're passed 20 ... why waste time going back to school when you can move into the tertiary sector ....

[Jantar]

... The problem with that it places a low priority on being able to memorise things for future recall, quite an important ability I would have thought!
When we employ people for our team at work, we do ask for tertiary qualifications, simply to prove that the candidate is capable of learning. I have the usually pleasant task of writing the assessment exam when their on job training is finished. In that I don't try and assess that the candidate can remember every little detail in every folder and manual, but rather that they know where to go to find the information required. For that reason I set open book exams, with a minimum of an 80% pass mark.

[Ronin]

NCEA is one of the most bullshit systems I've come across.

Worse than Apartheid?

[oneofsix]

That's true - adults do go back to do NCEA .... but there are other and better options once you're passed 20 ... why waste time going back to school when you can move into the tertiary sector ....

hasn't that gone up to 25 now for adult entry to uni etc?

[MSTRS]

Now ... those two words right there are a conversation stopper in KB ...

And one of the biggest problems we face is that who needs memorization when we have Google and Wikipedia ... Why go to courses ? All you need to know is on the net ... once upon a time they taught us all the times tables by rote .. then they invented hand calculators .. now we can surf the net from cellphones ...

Ever stood at a checkout when the power goes off? And that's just for simple arithmetic and you have cash...

[Banditbandit]

hasn't that gone up to 25 now for adult entry to uni etc?

No - it's still at 20 ... but don't forget the polytechnic sector exists as well ..

[SMOKEU]

That's true - adults do go back to do NCEA .... but there are other and better options once you're passed 20 ... why waste time going back to school when you can move into the tertiary sector ....

I've already done a uni course. I needed to do level 2 NCEA biology and physics for a career I intend on doing, but since I never did that stuff when I was young, I went back to school to do it last year.


Worse than Apartheid?

No comment.

[Banditbandit]

Ever stood at a checkout when the power goes off? And that's just for simple arithmetic and you have cash...

Shit mate I know 2+2 = 4 .. anything else I use a calculator ...

[Ronin]

I've already done a uni course. I needed to do level 2 NCEA biology and physics for a career I intend on doing, but since I never did that stuff when I was young, I went back to school to do it last year.



No comment.

Really? No opinion at all?

[SMOKEU]

Really? No opinion at all?


I don't want to get into a debate about it because it's bound to turn nasty very quickly.

[Ronin]

I don't want to get into a debate about it because it's bound to turn nasty very quickly.

That was the idea. Don't go fishing to not catch something.

[MSTRS]

Shit mate I know 2+2 = 4 .. anything else I use a calculator ...

Well, then. That's you fucked as well when 'modern technology' fails.
Pavlov's Dog has nothing on you trained monkeys...

[SMOKEU]

That was the idea. Don't go fishing to not catch something.

I'm not trolling in this case.

[avgas]

Pavlov's Dog has nothing on you trained monkeys...
About time - those fuckers have been dead for years.
How a stuffed dog was beating trained monkeys warps the mind really.

[Banditbandit]

Well, then. That's you fucked as well when 'modern technology' fails.
Pavlov's Dog has nothing on you trained monkeys...

Naaa bro ... If modern technology fails I can still catch and/or kill my own protein .. grow vegetables ... and remember how to light a fire to cook it all without matches ...

You don't need to do sums to do that .. just be good with a gun, a bow, a fishing line and a shovel ...

You Pākehā on the other hand ... you're stuffed ...

[SMOKEU]

Naaa bro ... If modern technology fails I can still catch and/or kill my own protein .. grow vegetables ... and remember how to light a fire to cook it all without matches ...

You don't need to do sums to do that .. just be good with a gun, a bow, a fishing line and a shovel ...

You Pākehā on the other hand ... you're stuffed ...

Don't forget that guns and fishing line are what white people introduced into this country.

[MSTRS]

Well - see - that's where you're wrong...
Us white fullas will just wait for youse brown fullas to do all the work, then steal what ever we need from youse. Bro.
:bleh::devil2:

[Little Miss Trouble]

Naaa bro ... If modern technology fails I can still catch and/or kill my own protein .. grow vegetables ... and remember how to light a fire to cook it all without matches ...

You don't need to do sums to do that .. just be good with a gun, a bow, a fishing line and a shovel ...

You Pākehā on the other hand ... you're stuffed ...

LOL because Maori are the only ones able to fire guns, fish, grow veges, or even know which native plants one can safely eat in the bush, right?

[Banditbandit]

Don't forget that guns and fishing line are what white people introduced into this country.

Yeah .. and your point is ???? White people needed Chinese to give them gun powder ... and we had fishing lines here ... (whole damm country was pulled out fo the sea by our ancestor Maui - on the end of his fishing line :msn-wink:) I can still make flax ones .. I don't need your nylon ones (though they are easier ... not for pulling up countries, for winding on a fishing reel)

[Banditbandit]

LOL because Maori are the only ones able to fire guns, fish, grow veges, or even know which native plants one can safely eat in the bush, right?

Basically yeah .... though I suspect in reality there would members of both groups who couldn't survive and members of both groups who could survive ...

[SMOKEU]

Yeah .. and your point is ???? White people needed Chinese to give them gun powder ... and we had fishing lines here ... I can still make flax ones .. I don't need your nylon ones (though they are easier ...)

Maori people seem to thrive on the white mans inventions. Most Maori people have a mobile phone, car, TV etc. If you don't like it, then you can live in the bush like your ancestors did.

[Banditbandit]

Maori people seem to thrive on the white mans inventions. Most Maori people have a mobile phone, car, TV etc. If you don't like it, then you can live in the bush like your ancestors did.

Hey ... who said we didn't like it ?

Who rattled your obnoxious (use a dictionary) chain today ???

If the shit hit the fan tomorrow how good are your survival skills? I suspect the biggest problem you'd have would be keeping that mouth of your shut ....

What do you say to a six foot six Māori with a shotgun ? Yes SIR

[SMOKEU]

Hey ... who said we didn't like it ?

Who rattled your obnoxious (use a dictionary) chain today ???

I'm not trying to be an asshole, and I believe that the white people can learn a lot from the Maori people.

[avgas]

What do you say to a six foot six Māori with a shotgun ?
Want some ammo bro?

[SMOKEU]

Want some ammo bro?

I want ammo!

[MSTRS]

What do you say to a six foot six Māori with a shotgun ?

Can I hold that for you, so you can crack open this here Lion Red? *hand him the bottle*

That's not what you meant, was it?

[avgas]

I want ammo!
20 or 12 gauge?

[Little Miss Trouble]

Basically yeah .... though I suspect in reality there would members of both groups who couldn't survive and members of both groups who could survive ...

Bwahahaha, I think you'll find most who has been raised outside of a major city can do all of those things - Maori, Pakeha, male or female

[SMOKEU]

20 or 12 gauge?

12 gauge :eek:

[Ronin]

Don't forget that guns and fishing line are what white people introduced into this country.

Thought we were avoiding your views on apartheid?

[Ocean1]

The focus on the reward is a complete result of neo-liberal economics ...

So.. just like real life then?

[Ronin]

What do you say to a six foot six Māori with a shotgun ? Yes SIR

Which mountain did you swap for that? :bleh:

[SMOKEU]

Thought we were avoiding your views on apartheid?

Aren't we?

[PrincessBandit]

Fresh from the interdweeb this morning:



"Education Minister Anne Tolley has been urged to sack the board of Auckland Grammar School after its "brazen attack on the credibility of the NCEA".

In a leaked letter obtained by The Dominion Post, secondary teachers' union president Kate Gainsford accuses Mrs Tolley of a "timid" response and spells out five steps she should take now that Auckland Grammar has declared its intention to ditch NCEA in year 11, except for maths and English exams for weaker pupils.

Ms Gainsford, president of the Post-Primary Teachers' Association, tells Mrs Tolley in the letter that she should make a clear statement in support of NCEA, publicly criticise Auckland Grammar and order it to use NCEA, sack the board of trustees if it refuses to comply, make NCEA a legal requirement, and halt taxpayer funds for exam systems which compete with NCEA – such as the University of Cambridge system that Auckland Grammar prefers."

Not a good look is it.

[oneofsix]

"Mrs Tolley again refused to discuss the school's actions as well as criticisms of her lack of public comment."

Given that she has been out spoken on other stuff and Auckland Grammar is a school that the darlings of her or her parties financial supporters are likely to be attending I believe the above and

"However, they were required to offer a "nationally and internationally recognised qualifications system", which the Cambridge system was not.

But as long as Auckland Grammar offered some pupils some NCEA subjects, the question of taking action "doesn't arise", ministry spokesman Matt Radley said. "

make the "not good look". Vote National and pass the Tui :drinknsin
Like a school mate once said, vote them out every 3 years, regardless of who they are

[Banditbandit]

So.. just like real life then?

No. I see your point ... but I don't quite agree. The "reward" under neo-liberalism is the bit of paper that gets you a job and earns you more money ... an economic reward

For some of us, the reward is knowing things - knowledge .. a side effect is that bit of paper that gets you a job and more money ... yes, the side effect is important, but it's not the focus.

There's a difference between the student who does the work to pass and the stduent who does the work to learn ... the first stops when they've done enough to pass .. the second never stops ... NCEA promotes the first one ... "I've got enough credits - I don't need to do any more work" ...

[Banditbandit]

Which mountain did you swap for that? :bleh:

I got that free ... and enculturated it .. it used to be; "What do you say to the Six Foot Six Negro with a shotgun?"

[Banditbandit]

I'm not trying to be an asshole, and I believe that the white people can learn a lot from the Maori people.

Shit ... you don't have to try to be an arsehole ....

And where the hell did that second part come from ????? That's a major surprise considering your usual racist bullshit stance ...

[SMOKEU]

Shit ... you don't have to try to be an arsehole ....

And where the hell did that second part come from ????? That's a major surprise considering your usual racist bullshit stance ...

Nothing wrong with a bit of racial harmony.

[Banditbandit]

Nothing wrong with a bit of racial harmony.

Jeez mate .. did you get laid last night ? Someone feed you the happy/nice pink pill or something ?

[terbang]

Fresh from the interdweeb this morning:



"Education Minister Anne Tolley has been urged to sack the board of Auckland Grammar School after its "brazen attack on the credibility of the NCEA".

In a leaked letter obtained by The Dominion Post, secondary teachers' union president Kate Gainsford accuses Mrs Tolley of a "timid" response and spells out five steps she should take now that Auckland Grammar has declared its intention to ditch NCEA in year 11, except for maths and English exams for weaker pupils.

Ms Gainsford, president of the Post-Primary Teachers' Association, tells Mrs Tolley in the letter that she should make a clear statement in support of NCEA, publicly criticise Auckland Grammar and order it to use NCEA, sack the board of trustees if it refuses to comply, make NCEA a legal requirement, and halt taxpayer funds for exam systems which compete with NCEA – such as the University of Cambridge system that Auckland Grammar prefers."

Not a good look is it.

Jeez, forget Neo liberalism, looks like we go straight to a good old dictatorship.

[avgas]

"What do you say to the Six Foot Six Negro with a shotgun?"
Did you eat that white kid that was on the raft with you?

[Banditbandit]

Did you eat that white kid that was on the raft with you?

All I say is, kings is kings, and you got to make allowances. Take them all around, they're a mighty ornery lot. It's the way they're raised.


These liars warn't no kings nor dukes, at all, but just low-down humbugs and frauds.

I reckon I got to light out for the Territory ahead of the rest, because Aunt Sally she’s going to adopt me and sivilize me, and I can’t stand it. I been there before.

[SMOKEU]

Jeez mate .. did you get laid last night ? Someone feed you the happy/nice pink pill or something ?

I'm simply broadening my horizons.

[Ocean1]

NCEA promotes the first one ... "I've got enough credits - I don't need to do any more work" ...

I'm confused.

You're saying NCEA discourages the learning of proven strategies for a sucessful life. But that's a good thing?

[Banditbandit]

I'm confused.

You're saying NCEA discourages the learning of proven strategies for a sucessful life. But that's a good thing?

No .. I'm saying NCEA does not encourage the learning of proven strategies for a successful life ...

[Bald Eagle]

No .. I'm saying NCEA does not encourage the learning of proven strategies for a successful life ...

NCEA doesn't encourage any learning. It is social engineering designed to achieve 50% failure rate for the future work force. Oh and to keep a bunch of MOE functionaries employed.

[Ocean1]

[QUOTE=Banditbandit;1129961443]No .. I'm saying NCEA does not encourage the learning of proven strategies for a successful life ...

I'll give you a tentitive pass.

The neo-liberalism thing's pure snake oil, though. Banditbandit could try harder, there.

[avgas]

NCEA doesn't encourage any learning. It is social engineering designed to achieve 50% failure rate for the future work force. Oh and to keep a bunch of MOE functionaries employed.
Its impossible to 'stand on the shoulders of giants' these days, so one must simply pile up enough fools underneath them to get to the same heights.

[MSTRS]

NCEA doesn't encourage any learning. It is social engineering designed to achieve 50% failure rate for the future work force. Oh and to keep a bunch of MOE functionaries employed.

Social engineering...doesn't that describe the entire schooling system? And always has?
Under the 'old' SC and UE regime, 50% passed/failed. If an exam returned a high pass rate, the results were simply scaled back to retain the 50/50 ratio. Or vice versa.

[oneofsix]

Social engineering...doesn't that describe the entire schooling system? And always has?
Under the 'old' SC and UE regime, 50% passed/failed. If an exam returned a high pass rate, the results were simply scaled back to retain the 50/50 ratio. Or vice versa.

yeah wasn't it a great system? :devil2:
The graduates of it didn't understand the bell curve and standard deviations or how they evened (statistically at least) out fairness cross the different years. Oh and it had that nasty FAIL line, C = pass, D = Fail. The first change was to bury the fail mark within a grade, pity the students were smarter.
The other change that doesn't work with NCEA is the changes to the subjects. The easiest to explain is the likes of woodwork, used to teach basic carpentry/joinery but now its material technology and tries to include design and marketing. Someone good with there hands is not usually good at spin

[MSTRS]

The other change that doesn't work with NCEA is the changes to the subjects. The easiest to explain is the likes of woodwork, used to teach basic carpentry/joinery but now its material technology and tries to include design and marketing. Someone good with there hands is not usually good at spin

What's wrong with that? Isn't it now expected that the cleaner has a degree in Business Studies and understands the entire structure of the company for whom they work.
:msn-wink:

[Ocean1]

Social engineering...doesn't that describe the entire schooling system? And always has?
Under the 'old' SC and UE regime, 50% passed/failed. If an exam returned a high pass rate, the results were simply scaled back to retain the 50/50 ratio. Or vice versa.

Nope. That's just accepting real-world comparisons and evaluations.

Social engineering is the foisting of untenable theories onto a population (for the purpose of establishing policy otherwise void of value) under the assumption that they’re less intelligent than the foistie and therefore won’t choke on it.

Like the assertion that kids are all of equal competence in any particular discipline, and implementing a system that attempts to disguise the fact that they aren’t.

[MSTRS]

Can't entirely agree. Under the old system, if enough teachers in a subject did a brilliant job, then exam results of that subject were skewed from what was the desired norm, hence the scaling.
What's that if it's not 'engineering' a result?

[Ocean1]

Can't entirely agree. Under the old system, if enough teachers in a subject did a brilliant job, then exam results of that subject were skewed from what was the desired norm, hence the scaling.
What's that if it's not 'engineering' a result?

Insomuch as the purpose of an exam is to establish competence rather than to determine who failed to take advantage of whatever learning tools or environment was available I’d suggest they’re pretty much simply a statement of fact. Hard to see how you make that a socio-political issue.

Rather than blame teachers for failing to teach why not ask why the student failed to learn? Actually, don’t bother, nobody but their mother’s are interested.

[Bald Eagle]

They officially don't scale results anymore. they now call it normalising the curve or some such.

Just like they don't have percentage results, they have values out of a hundred instead.

[MSTRS]

If an exam is/was an attempt to establish competence, then best be asking those that set the questions above/below the curriculum for that year group...
There was never any interest in an individual's competency or whether the curriculum was taught well - only in ensuring half the group failed and half succeeded.

[Banditbandit]

Nope. That's just accepting real-world comparisons and evaluations.

Social engineering is the foisting of untenable theories onto a population (for the purpose of establishing policy otherwise void of value) under the assumption that they’re less intelligent than the foistie and therefore won’t choke on it.

Like the assertion that kids are all of equal competence in any particular discipline, and implementing a system that attempts to disguise the fact that they aren’t.

I partly agree ... tho' I would apply the concept of social engineering to all political attempts to make social changes - not just what you would call "untenable" but also the "tenable" ones - as it's a value judgement as to which group the theories fall into ... Governments of the Right and the Left practise social engineering ...

[MSTRS]

In fact, anything designed to 'force' the public to conform to something, is social/political engineering.
ie - every law on the books for a start.

[Ocean1]

If an exam is/was an attempt to establish competence...

If that's not the design function then it's not an examination.


There was never any interest in an individual's competency or whether the curriculum was taught well - only in ensuring half the group failed and half succeeded.

You're suggesting students incapable of achieving last years targets be encouraged to try harder ones next year?

[MSTRS]

I'm saying that the old system of SC and UE etc was a crock of shit. Scarcely better (or worse) than NCEA.

[Swoop]

Its impossible to 'stand on the shoulders of giants' these days, so one must simply pile up enough fools underneath them to get to the same heights.
Ahh. The "Greg O'Connor approach".


Someone good with there hands is not usually good at spin
Thank fuck!

[Ocean1]

I'm saying that the old system of SC and UE etc was a crock of shit. Scarcely better (or worse) than NCEA.

S'pose it depends on what you thought it was for. As a measure of competence nobody has ever discovered a better way than asking for a demonstration.

In that regard NCEA is worse than useless as it engenders delusions of competence in those who have no marketable skills whatsoever.

[MSTRS]

How anyone can defend a system that tested (kid's) learning, and then allocated a result based on half must pass/fail, is beyond me.
































































Unless Ocean1 was one of those test setters...:weird:

[Bald Eagle]

Not defending it, but without it we'd have to pack our own groceries and pump our own petrol ..... :facepalm: we do that now anyway.

[Ocean1]

How anyone can defend a system that tested (kid's) learning, and then allocated a result based on half must pass/fail, is beyond me.


Think you'll find there was never a policy quite that simplistic...


Unless Ocean1 was one of those test setters...


...and no, I'm not going to review your 1959 49% in science.


Not defending it, but without it we'd have to pack our own groceries and pump our own petrol ..... :facepalm: we do that now anyway.

Fair suck of the sav mate, nowadys there's no tests to filter out prospective labourers, so they go straight onto teh doll.