Record $14 trillion-plus debt weighs on Congress

[mashman]

What will they do... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110115/ap_on_re_us/us_debt_wars)

"Remarkably, nearly half of today's national debt was run up in just the past six years. It soared from $7.6 trillion in January 2005 as President George W. Bush began his second term to $10.6 trillion the day Obama was inaugurated and to $14.02 trillion now. The period has seen two major wars and the deepest economic downturn since the 1930s."

"Here's what then-Sen. Barack Obama said on the Senate floor in 2006: "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can't pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance the government's reckless fiscal policies."" Get outta that one Mr Obama. And who are these super rich countries that that you can borrow Trillions off?

Anyhoo, they're gonna be searching for ways to cut the deficit etc... sounds like it's open season on new tax creation... Hmmmm, is it just me or does that sound remarkably familiar to our situation?

Govt outsourcing to the private sector is the best way to get things done eh? I think not!

Good luck America, looks like you're gonna need it. Hope you don't go the way of the Tunisians (http://gawker.com/5734434/social-media-didnt-oust-tunisias-president--the-tunisian-people-did)

(the Tunisian link I chose highlights the UTTER ignorance of the media :facepalm:

"We should stop trying to fit the events in Tunisia into a Western context. It simplifies things, but it also overlooks the real forces of change at work in the North African country. This isn't about Facebook, or Wikileaks, or Twitter — it's about the people of Tunisia being fed up with decades of marginalization at the hands of a Western-backed kleptocracy, and taking charge of their own future. Among the issues that brought about the events of the last month: Low wages, few job prospects for a growing educated class, high food prices, and a heavy-handed government lead by former President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali. Did social media have an effect on events in Tunisia? Undoubtedly, yes. Is this a social media revolution? Absolutely not.")

[NinjaNanna]

can anybody say, "bye, bye, world super power!"

Or maybe the yanks have caught onto your idea of eliminating money? Just figuring they'll use as much of it as they can before they discard it all together.

[mashman]

can anybody say, "bye, bye, world super power!"

Or maybe the yanks have caught onto your idea of eliminating money? Just figuring they'll use as much of it as they can before they discard it all together.

Heh... they'll never give that up without a fight... unfortunately the love of money is such that there'll probably be some form of cull followed by a global election to appoint the first World Leader... free money for all, as long as they vote for ya. Money is ingrained into our culture, so much so that after it's all settled, we'll move forwards in excatly the same way as we have up til this date... exceptionally slowly, painfully and only if there's a profit involved...

But hey, i'm a rabid socialist, hippy, greeny, capitalist, nutcase that's obviously completely out of my mind :blink:... heaven forbid i'd have a free thinking thought that couldn't be aligned with the ideals of any political party, or economic model... it must really confuse people :facepalm: :)

Fingers crossed it all happens in my life time... i'll get seriously fucked up and watch the world go by...

[shrub]

a terminal dependence on cheap oil that is getting expensive combined with running two very, very expensive and completely futile wars would have been enough, but add the miracle of a free market economy that was completely out of control, and the outcome is inevitable.

I wonder when the US will go to China for aid?

[mashman]

a terminal dependence on cheap oil that is getting expensive combined with running two very, very expensive and completely futile wars would have been enough, but add the miracle of a free market economy that was completely out of control, and the outcome is inevitable.

I wonder when the US will go to China for aid?

when did it stop being out of control? as long as they can generate more money, she'll be right :shifty: good luck with that thinking eh :)

Haven't they already? cheaper products putting more money in the pockets of the consumer to give to the govt...

[tri boy]

Perfect timing for the Chinese President to be over there.
He'll buy as much US land as possible, using the US $ as payment.
The Chinese must be laughing.
Hawaii would be a good purchace for them.

[shrub]

when did it stop being out of control? as long as they can generate more money, she'll be right :shifty: good luck with that thinking eh :)

Haven't they already? cheaper products putting more money in the pockets of the consumer to give to the govt...

Ah yes, quantitative easing. The Weimar Republic and Zimbabwe have had great fun with quantitative easing - everyone became incredibly rich. Hell, I would be a multi-millionaire in Zimbabwe, I have a $100,000,000 bank note.

[MisterD]

add the miracle of a free market economy that was completely out of control,

Free market...the US? Don't make me laugh. The subsidies that their steel industry and farmers get in particular are about as far from "free market" as you can get.

The US is the ultimate example of Crony Capitalism...not the same thing.

[mashman]

"Camden ranked first the previous two years. In 2009, the city had 2,380 violent crimes per 100,000 residents — more than five times the national average, the FBI said."

"About 335 workers, representing one-sixth of the local government work force, lost their jobs, according to Mayor Dana Redd. It was worst in the public safety departments, where nearly half the police force and close to one-third of the city's firefighters were laid off." (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110118/ap_on_re_us/us_camden_layoffs)

... I would have thought the opposite should have happened if crime in the city was so bad... it'll only spread past the boundaries of Camden :facepalm: all to save a few bucks :facepalm:...

[Little Miss Trouble]

Good thing Australia and New Zealand have already been sucking up to... err I mean... organising trade agreements with China...

[shrub]

Free market...the US? Don't make me laugh. The subsidies that their steel industry and farmers get in particular are about as far from "free market" as you can get.

The US is the ultimate example of Crony Capitalism...not the same thing.

Actually, there is no such thing as free market capitalism in it's textbook form. What is presented as, and passes for freemarket capitalism is pretty much what happens in the US, and to a lesser extent here. Selected segments are completely unfettered (usually banking and the money markets) while other sections enjoy cronyism. For example, in NZ dairy enjoys exemption from the ETS and (in Canterbury and Southland) environmental protection is bypassed.

[toycollector10]

But the USA still wants a manned mission to Mars.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/11/26/219877/nasa-manned-mars-mission-details-emerge.html

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, namely the USA, some states can't afford to gas up all of their police cars because they have so much debt.

[sgtp]

What will ultimately destroy America is the US dollar no longer being the currency in which oil is traded. Once this happens every single thing will rise in price some crazy percentage on the order of 200-500%. Sad days are ahead.:weep:

Being american myself, I fear whats going to happen to all my family back home. :(

[mashman]

What will ultimately destroy America is the US dollar no longer being the currency in which oil is traded. Once this happens every single thing will rise in price some crazy percentage on the order of 200-500%. Sad days are ahead.:weep:

Being american myself, I fear whats going to happen to all my family back home. :(

I hope you're wrong :yes:

I finally shifted my kids from the other side of the world over similar fears for the future of the UK...

[gatch]

I am not an economic expert. I don't understand the finer points of what is going on.

But to me it seems like this is all just a bad story. As all these trillions are only on paper. Money that until recently didn't exist, being borrowed for reasons that don't make sense, or have much to do with the average schmo that will be burdened with the consequence.

It is frustrating that such a small group of idiot cunt "experts", can concoct these various ways of making money, royally fuck everything up for nearly everyone else and can't possibly be made to make amends for ruining millions (billions ?) of lives.

[Edbear]

What will ultimately destroy America is the US dollar no longer being the currency in which oil is traded. Once this happens every single thing will rise in price some crazy percentage on the order of 200-500%. Sad days are ahead.:weep:

Being american myself, I fear whats going to happen to all my family back home. :(


I hope you're wrong :yes:

I finally shifted my kids from the other side of the world over similar fears for the future of the UK...

NZ and Aus are to certain extent insulated but particularly in fuel energy are we vulnerable to price increases. Keep an eye on the world news as we have only just started to see the effects of the collapse of the world's financial system. Brace yourselves for continuing price rises for the basic necessities.

[pete376403]

What will ultimately destroy America is the US dollar no longer being the currency in which oil is traded. Once this happens every single thing will rise in price some crazy percentage on the order of 200-500%. Sad days are ahead.:weep:

Being american myself, I fear whats going to happen to all my family back home. :(

Iraq, under Saddam, was proposing to move from US Dollars to Euros for oil trading. US of course could not allow that to happen as this would have been the real WM(US)D. So look what happened to Saddam.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html
(and yes, the story is by Robert Fisk, whom right wingers hate passionately)

Quote" Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars. Bankers remember, of course, what happened to the last Middle East oil producer to sell its oil in euros rather than dollars. A few months after Saddam Hussein trumpeted his decision, the Americans and British invaded Iraq. "

However the idea still has traction among other oil states.

[mashman]

NZ and Aus are to certain extent insulated but particularly in fuel energy are we vulnerable to price increases. Keep an eye on the world news as we have only just started to see the effects of the collapse of the world's financial system. Brace yourselves for continuing price rises for the basic necessities.

or even a little closer to home (http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/GST-hike-drives-rise-nzpa-3237916885.html;_ylt=AhM.0AJs6Wq9KXYjOcDNjn35K5NG; _ylu=X3oDMTFkZW9wYzJtBHBvcwM3BHNlYwNuZXdzSHViQXJ0a WNsZUxpc3QEc2xrA2dzdGhpa2Vkcml2ZQ--?x=0) :(

[shrub]

NZ and Aus are to certain extent insulated but particularly in fuel energy are we vulnerable to price increases. Keep an eye on the world news as we have only just started to see the effects of the collapse of the world's financial system. Brace yourselves for continuing price rises for the basic necessities.

For several decades we have been living in a fools paradise and enjoying an artifically lavish lifestyle on the backs of Asian savers. They save money and we borrow it off them at high interest rates and spend it on the stuff they make. They have been incredibly clever, although what will happen when we can no longer afford to buy their shit and can't afford to pay back our loans is anyone's guess.

[Edbear]

For several decades we have been living in a fools paradise and enjoying an artifically lavish lifestyle on the backs of Asian savers. They save money and we borrow it off them at high interest rates and spend it on the stuff they make. They have been incredibly clever, although what will happen when we can no longer afford to buy their shit and can't afford to pay back our loans is anyone's guess.

Cue the US situation...

[shrub]

Cue the US situation...

Yeah, that's one likely scenario. But then China is facing problems too: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/chinas-overheating-economy-stokes-fears-for-global-inflation-2190283.html

I think whatever happens we are watching the end of the American empire, and sadly we will go down with it, especially with the limp government we have (and are likely to have for the forseeable future, given the flaccid opposition).

[Brian d marge]

For several decades we have been living in a fools paradise and enjoying an artifically lavish lifestyle on the backs of Asian savers. They save money and we borrow it off them at high interest rates and spend it on the stuff they make. They have been incredibly clever, although what will happen when we can no longer afford to buy their shit and can't afford to pay back our loans is anyone's guess.

The Japanese debt , largely from savings bonds bought by the Japanese, will be a problem soon
As Mr and Mrs Joe Plumber san get older , they WILL cash in their investments , where that cash is going to come from is anyones guess

Also the trend towards NOT saving is gaining ground here

Stephen

[shrub]

The Japanese debt , largely from savings bonds bought by the Japanese, will be a problem soon
As Mr and Mrs Joe Plumber san get older , they WILL cash in their investments , where that cash is going to come from is anyones guess

Also the trend towards NOT saving is gaining ground here

Stephen

Actually we will have a more interesting problem closer to home. Over the next few years Mr and Mrs Babyboomer kiwi will be retiring, and looking to sell their big flash house and move down to something smaller and a little cheaper and use the money as retirement savings (and yes, I'm one of them and was planning on doing just that once kids had left home etc). Therefore we will have a lot of big 4-5 brm/2 lounge/multi-bathroom houses in the burbs for sale.


If I could only convince my daughter to leave home and adopt out my partner's daughter...

[Okey Dokey]

I think the whole situation for the average working person, either in the US or here, is tragic. So many put in a days work day after day, pay their taxes, want to buy a house and get a mortgage. Raise a family, enjoy a holiday. Not everyone spent up crazily.

Most people, I think, attend to politics at election time only, and then get on with their lives. Now they find their elected representatives have let a crazy banking system run amok and so the average guy on the street has to pay? So many out of work. The little guy ends up carrying the can, but is that really fair?

I know it its trendy to scoff at the Yanks, but I've known many and found them to be very likeable, honest and hard-working. Like a lot of kiwis, really. Nothing like the fat-cats bankers nor the idiots on reality tv shows. I gain no pleasure from the pain of regular people getting screwed by a system which is rarely (never) held to account, either here or overseas.

My 2 cents.

[mashman]

it'll be interesting if this goes through:

"Bankruptcy could permit a state to alter its contractual promises to retirees, which are often protected by state constitutions, and it could provide an alternative to a no-strings bailout. Along with retirees, however, investors in a state’s bonds could suffer, possibly ending up at the back of the line as unsecured creditors." (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/A-Path-Is-Sought-for-States-nytimes-1316605857.html?x=0&.v=1)

nothing like making it to retirement only to find that the state has gone tits and legally doesn't have to give you a pension :blink: (not that that would happen, but...)

[Brian d marge]

Actually we will have a more interesting problem closer to home. Over the next few years Mr and Mrs Babyboomer kiwi will be retiring, and looking to sell their big flash house and move down to something smaller and a little cheaper and use the money as retirement savings (and yes, I'm one of them and was planning on doing just that once kids had left home etc). Therefore we will have a lot of big 4-5 brm/2 lounge/multi-bathroom houses in the burbs for sale.


If I could only convince my daughter to leave home and adopt out my partner's daughter...
One thing I like here

is that , you don't sell the family home , you build on the back section a smaller house and move into that , the kids get the family house . so in effect you can have 3 families living on the one section , ( upstairs downstairs separate units in the big house , mum and dad living in a new , made for oldies house at rear

who do the kids pay the rent to ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, DAD

hey they win as the rent is half of the going rate !

Stephen

[Winston001]

For several decades we have been living in a fools paradise and enjoying an artifically lavish lifestyle on the backs of Asian savers. They save money and we borrow it off them at high interest rates and spend it on the stuff they make. They have been incredibly clever, although what will happen when we can no longer afford to buy their shit and can't afford to pay back our loans is anyone's guess.

True but it's more complex than that. For example, if we (the decadent West) can't repay our loans, whose problem does that really become? The lender. We've got the money and they don't.

The main reason we have experienced the Global Recession is the huge ballooning of capital in the world economy since the early 1990s. Many people in many nations made a lot of money - and that included emerging economies such as the Chinese and India. On top of that oil rushed away to a high value transferring even more wealth to the few oil-rich nations.

All of that money needed a home so investors desperately sought out places to put it.....and consumers in the OECD countries were very happy to borrow from them.

When all the buying stopped, those Middle East, Chinese, Venezuelan, Japanese etc investors lost their money. Not just us. Them too. Even worse we stopped buying their stuff.

No big deal, the global economy will settle down eventually but the balance between nations won't be as it was.

[Winston001]

The other point which needs to be considered is that the USA still has an economy 3 times the size of China. And with only 330 million people as opposed to 1.2 billion. China is facing real limits in terms of food and industry while its citizens are racing to grab a Western lifestyle. The environmental cost will be too high.

Their currency is kept artificially low to keep sales going but eventually the Chinese will price themselves out of existing markets. Just as Japan did in the 1970s when Taiwan and South Korea took over as the cheapest suppliers. We should expect Brazil, Bangladesh, and some parts of Africa to replace China.

As for the USA - I agree it's day as the global economic superpower is over but its nowhere near down and out. Consider the tiny island of Britain. Astride the globe with a Commonwealth of countries to draw wealth from in 1900. Rich beyond comprehension.

Today - all alone (apart from the Frogs and Fritzes). Nevertheless Britain still has enormous wealth and controls businesses all around the world. It is very far from down and out - and it lost far more in two World Wars than the US has currently put at risk.

[ajturbo]

The other point which needs to be considered is that the USA still has an economy 3 times the size of China. And with only 330 million people as opposed to 1.2 billion. China is facing real limits in terms of food and industry while its citizens are racing to grab a Western lifestyle. The environmental cost will be too high.

Their currency is kept artificially low to keep sales going but eventually the Chinese will price themselves out of existing markets. Just as Japan did in the 1970s when Taiwan and South Korea took over as the cheapest suppliers. We should expect Brazil, Bangladesh, and some parts of Africa to replace China.

As for the USA - I agree it's day as the global economic superpower is over but its nowhere near down and out. Consider the tiny island of Britain. Astride the globe with a Commonwealth of countries to draw wealth from in 1900. Rich beyond comprehension.

Today - all alone (apart from the Frogs and Fritzes). Nevertheless Britain still has enormous wealth and controls businesses all around the world. It is very far from down and out - and it lost far more in two World Wars than the US has currently put at risk.

wow.. that is a great perspective... it seams to be positive? :niceone:

[mashman]

True but it's more complex than that. For example, if we (the decadent West) can't repay our loans, whose problem does that really become? The lender. We've got the money and they don't.


It's not complex at all. The tax payer of the country that's going down the gurgler will pay... not those who made the shitty deal, not the govt, not the country, not those who have called in the loans, not the businesses (they just go under and fuck off with what cash they can)... so who pays?

The tax payer!



Today - all alone (apart from the Frogs and Fritzes). Nevertheless Britain still has enormous wealth and controls businesses all around the world. It is very far from down and out - and it lost far more in two World Wars than the US has currently put at risk.


Yet they are still over 1 trillion pounds in debt. How can that be if what you say above is correct? Who's gonna pay for that debt?

The tax payer!

[Edbear]

http://www.expatica.com/ch/news/swiss-news/elites-to-tackle-fundamentally-changed--world-at-davos_124967.html

""The world has fundamentally changed," said Klaus Schwab, founder of the World Economic Forum which organises the annual meeting at the Alpine resort.

"One of the most important factors of the new reality is the shift of geopolitical and geoeconomic power from north to south, from west to east.

"This has not only political and economic consequences. I think the world will go through some shock waves of adaptation," he added.

The south and east are taking up a bigger seat in this new world, as illustrated by the participation of emerging giants like India and China at the meeting.""

[Oscar]

What will they do... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110115/ap_on_re_us/us_debt_wars)

"Remarkably, nearly half of today's national debt was run up in just the past six years. It soared from $7.6 trillion in January 2005 as President George W. Bush began his second term to $10.6 trillion the day Obama was inaugurated and to $14.02 trillion now. The period has seen two major wars and the deepest economic downturn since the 1930s."

"Here's what then-Sen. Barack Obama said on the Senate floor in 2006: "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can't pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance the government's reckless fiscal policies."" Get outta that one Mr Obama. And who are these super rich countries that that you can borrow Trillions off?

Anyhoo, they're gonna be searching for ways to cut the deficit etc... sounds like it's open season on new tax creation... Hmmmm, is it just me or does that sound remarkably familiar to our situation?

Govt outsourcing to the private sector is the best way to get things done eh? I think not!

Good luck America, looks like you're gonna need it. Hope you don't go the way of the Tunisians (http://gawker.com/5734434/social-media-didnt-oust-tunisias-president--the-tunisian-people-did)

(the Tunisian link I chose highlights the UTTER ignorance of the media :facepalm:

"We should stop trying to fit the events in Tunisia into a Western context. It simplifies things, but it also overlooks the real forces of change at work in the North African country. This isn't about Facebook, or Wikileaks, or Twitter — it's about the people of Tunisia being fed up with decades of marginalization at the hands of a Western-backed kleptocracy, and taking charge of their own future. Among the issues that brought about the events of the last month: Low wages, few job prospects for a growing educated class, high food prices, and a heavy-handed government lead by former President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali. Did social media have an effect on events in Tunisia? Undoubtedly, yes. Is this a social media revolution? Absolutely not.")

A comparison between the US and Tunisia...what have you been smoking?
Care to elucidate how the two economies (not to mention the two societies) are even vaguely similar?

[Winston001]

It's not complex at all. The tax payer of the country that's going down the gurgler will pay... not those who made the shitty deal, not the govt, not the country, not those who have called in the loans, not the businesses (they just go under and fuck off with what cash they can)... so who pays?

The tax payer!



Yet they are still over 1 trillion pounds in debt. How can that be if what you say above is correct? Who's gonna pay for that debt?

The tax payer!

No. This is confusing public debt with private debt. Government borrowing with private borrowing. The money lost by many private borrowers is gone and will not be repaid to overseas lenders. However some of that money has been guaranteed by governments to keep banks afloat and to that extent, the losses are taken over by the taxpayer.

Governments themselves issue treasury bonds which is the way they borrow money. NZ for example is borrowing $300 million per week to fund public expenditure but also receives taxes to partly offset the loans. That still leaves Bill English with an $11 billion annual deficit and a huge headache.

In 1933 Franklin Roosevelt introduced the New Deal which was a revolutionary idea for the times and stemmed from the work of economist Maynard Keynes. The American government borrowed and spent money in the economy which stimulated jobs and pulled America and much of the world out of the Great Depression. One legacy is their magnificent freeway system.

That is what is happening now. Keynesian economics.

[Winston001]

http://www.expatica.com/ch/news/swiss-news/elites-to-tackle-fundamentally-changed--world-at-davos_124967.html

""The world has fundamentally changed," said Klaus Schwab, founder of the World Economic Forum which organises the annual meeting at the Alpine resort.

"One of the most important factors of the new reality is the shift of geopolitical and geoeconomic power from north to south, from west to east.

"This has not only political and economic consequences. I think the world will go through some shock waves of adaptation," he added.

The south and east are taking up a bigger seat in this new world, as illustrated by the participation of emerging giants like India and China at the meeting.""

Yep, nice find which expresses the new reality. You'll note he does not say the OECD nations will collapse or that the world economy will end. Just that former third world nations now have more power and economic muscle in the world. Two millennia ago some Italians controlled the known world. 1200 years later a vigorous chap from Mongolia held an empire from the Pacific ocean to Hungary.

These balances of power are always changing and we needn't fear them. The OECD nations will repay their debts and be poorer as a result but they will still have Ducatis and skiing in the French Alps. It takes total war to wipe out the wealth of a nation. Or not - consider Japan and Germany today.

[Brian d marge]

- and it lost far more in two World Wars than the US has currently put at risk.

and some of us are still pissed off about this

Stephen

America , used the war , to position itself

a war which threatened the whole western way of life

underhanded evil baskets

[racefactory]

Yep, nice find which expresses the new reality. You'll note he does not say the OECD nations will collapse or that the world economy will end. Just that former third world nations now have more power and economic muscle in the world. Two millennia ago some Italians controlled the known world. 1200 years later a vigorous chap from Mongolia held an empire from the Pacific ocean to Hungary.

These balances of power are always changing and we needn't fear them. The OECD nations will repay their debts and be poorer as a result but they will still have Ducatis and skiing in the French Alps. It takes total war to wipe out the wealth of a nation. Or not - consider Japan and Germany today.

Nice post.

[mashman]

A comparison between the US and Tunisia...what have you been smoking?
Care to elucidate how the two economies (not to mention the two societies) are even vaguely similar?

Yup. People and Money.

[mashman]

No. This is confusing public debt with private debt. Government borrowing with private borrowing. The money lost by many private borrowers is gone and will not be repaid to overseas lenders. However some of that money has been guaranteed by governments to keep banks afloat and to that extent, the losses are taken over by the taxpayer.

Governments themselves issue treasury bonds which is the way they borrow money. NZ for example is borrowing $300 million per week to fund public expenditure but also receives taxes to partly offset the loans. That still leaves Bill English with an $11 billion annual deficit and a huge headache.

In 1933 Franklin Roosevelt introduced the New Deal which was a revolutionary idea for the times and stemmed from the work of economist Maynard Keynes. The American government borrowed and spent money in the economy which stimulated jobs and pulled America and much of the world out of the Great Depression. One legacy is their magnificent freeway system.

That is what is happening now. Keynesian economics.

... not to mention the already subsidised private "industries" ... When the private company ups their prices, I pay for them (and by default am servicing the company debt). When the public costs go up, I pay for them... I also pay for the costs that the private contractors charge for public services and worse should they go tits... Tis the tax payer that foots the bill for the lot, granted not ALL private debt, never meant it that way... but I'll have to fund the knock ons... When a private business fails who looks after the employees? As you mention there are cross overs and likely many many more than my tiny mind can think of... but I, as a tax payer, fund a fair chunk of that debt.

Economics has a lot to answer for.

[Oscar]

Yup. People and Money.

People & money - pretty much includes the whole world.
So explain why you put US debt, the fall of the Tunisian Regime and an opinion piece on social networks in the same post.

[Oscar]

I also pay for the costs that the private contractors charge for public services

So if it was Govt./Local Body owned, you wouldn't pay?

[mashman]

People & money - pretty much includes the whole world.
So explain why you put US debt, the fall of the Tunisian Regime and an opinion piece on social networks in the same post.

It does :shit:.
Because there's a shitload more people in America, the Tunisians are also having problems brought on by lack of finance etc..., it'd be much more messyerer if America decided to go the direction of the Tunisians (hence the I hope they don't go that way), and America is the home, imho, of the Social Network (although I posted the opinion piece because I thought is was quite ironic (and no I won't explain my reasons if you didn't see the irony :))). Did i pass the test :).



So if it was Govt./Local Body owned, you wouldn't pay?


I thought "When the public costs go up, I pay for them" pretty much covered that bit.

[Oscar]

It does :shit:.
Because there's a shitload more people in America, the Tunisians are also having problems brought on by lack of finance etc..., it'd be much more messyerer if America decided to go the direction of the Tunisians (hence the I hope they don't go that way), and America is the home, imho, of the Social Network (although I posted the opinion piece because I thought is was quite ironic (and no I won't explain my reasons if you didn't see the irony :))). Did i pass the test :).



.

If the test was to post three vaguely related subjects, you get a "merit".

As for the rest - very little part of the situation in Tunisia translates to the US (apart from the obvious people and money stuff).

You are comparing the collapse of a violent totalitarian regime to the world's richest ‎democracy. The unrest in Tunisia was brought about by the unemployment rate ‎amongst educated young people in a rapidly growing economy (one built on tourism ‎and unskilled labour) since 2005. ‎

And the real stupid thing is that your post highlights the US foreign debt situation, whereas ‎Tunisia has no overseas debt problem to speak of. It owes a piffling US$18b on a est. GDP of US$100b ‎‎(down from $19b last year).‎
Even it's public debt to GDP ratio is lower than that of the US (and NZ for that matter).

Perhaps you could change your user name to "Apples & Oranges"?

[mashman]

If the test was to post three vaguely related subjects, you get a "merit".


You look at it in your terms, i'll look at it in mine ... deja vu much?



As for the rest - very little part of the situation in Tunisia translates to the US (apart from the obvious people and money stuff).


:rofl: aye, nothing at all :blink:



You are comparing the collapse of a violent totalitarian regime to the world's richest ‎democracy. The unrest in Tunisia was brought about by the unemployment rate ‎amongst educated young people in a rapidly growing economy (one built on tourism ‎and unskilled labour) since 2005. ‎


Democracy :killingme... the US seems to be closer to a totalitarian regime (i looked it up) than a democracy. The US dont have unemployment problems? They aren't educated? The US doesn't have Tourism? the US doesn't have unskilled labor?



And the real stupid thing is that your post highlights the US foreign debt situation, whereas ‎Tunisia has no overseas debt problem to speak of. It owes a piffling US$18b on a est. GDP of US$100b ‎‎(down from $19b last year).‎
Even it's public debt to GDP ratio is lower than that of the US (and NZ for that matter).

Perhaps you could change your user name to "Apples & Oranges"?

the really stupid thing is that you call apples and oranges based on the label given to the political setup of the US and Tunisia? bravo :blink:... the people and money is irrelevant by that definition

[Oscar]

Democracy :killingme... the US seems to be closer to a totalitarian regime (i looked it up) than a democracy. The US dont have unemployment problems? They aren't educated? The US doesn't have Tourism? the US doesn't have unskilled labor?


This is a truly stupid comment, and indicates that you do not understand the issues and since you obviously aren't capable of communicating in anything other than hyperbole, I'm not going to bother arguing.

[mashman]

This is a truly stupid comment, and indicates that you do not understand the issues and since you obviously aren't capable of communicating in anything other than hyperbole, I'm not going to bother arguing.

Arguing :rofl:? How about, just for a change Oscar, you actually try putting YOUR point across (because you never do), with the facts that you obviously have that I don't or have missed, instead of keeping all of those details to yourself. Perhaps I would then have a more balanced view of the situation and might actually learn something :). I would be utterly stunned if it was in your capacity to do it, as it's something i'm yet to see. In the meantime, I will hyperbole (WTF does that word mean anyway) my fat little ass off.

[Oscar]

Arguing :rofl:? How about, just for a change Oscar, you actually try putting YOUR point across (because you never do), with the facts that you obviously have that I don't or have missed, instead of keeping all of those details to yourself. Perhaps I would then have a more balanced view of the situation and might actually learn something :). I would be utterly stunned if it was in your capacity to do it, as it's something i'm yet to see. In the meantime, I will hyperbole (WTF does that word mean anyway) my fat little ass off.

You stared the thread, Ace.
Did you not expect any argument?
Is it a private Space Cadets Only thread?
Why don't you make your point.
Drawing some mysterious connection between three apparently unconnected things and then making further unsubstantiated statements does not an argument prove.

For example: ".. the US seems to be closer to a totalitarian regime (i looked it up) than a democracy." sez who? Where did you look it up? In this months Bong Buyers Guide?

Your thread title refers to the US debt problem and draws a comparison to Tunisia.
But Tunisia doesn't have a debt problem - it has actually paid off foreign debt in the last year and is expecting good economic growth. It has a problem with unemployment in a particular demographic, and a repressive regime. And to say these things are related because they both invovle people and money is patently stupid - every country in the world has both of these - so why should the US look to Tunisia?

[mashman]

You stared the thread, Ace.
Did you not expect any argument?
Is it a private Space Cadets Only thread?
Why don't you make your point.
Drawing some mysterious connection between three apparently unconnected things and then making further unsubstantiated statements does not an argument prove.

For example: ".. the US seems to be closer to a totalitarian regime (i looked it up) than a democracy." sez who? Where did you look it up? In this months Bong Buyers Guide?

Your thread title refers to the US debt problem and draws a comparison to Tunisia.
But Tunisia doesn't have a debt problem - it has actually paid off foreign debt in the last year and is expecting good economic growth. It has a problem with unemployment in a particular demographic, and a repressive regime. And to say these things are related because they both invovle people and money is patently stupid - every country in the world has both of these - so why should the US look to Tunisia?


:rofl:@ Ace.
I'm not fussed about being challenged if that's what you mean. We all have our own opinions and join our own dots and ya can;t please all of the people all of the time :).
Bit insulting to others in the thread.

My point, hopefully a little less vague:
I believe that there is the potential for the US to rise up against their government because of the way their govt treats their people and to a certain extent, the rest of the world. Tunisia did (maybe not for exactly the same reasons, but there will be cross overs). It'll be messy if the US does react similarly to Tunisia, coz there's lots more of 'em. From the article "We should stop trying to fit the events in Tunisia into a Western context". Oh irony, especially when further on I read "it's about the people of Tunisia being fed up with decades of marginalization at the hands of a Western-backed kleptocracy", so that's not a Western context then, hmmm... anyhoo, Western Kleptocracy - Could be the US, coulda been the UK, coulda been any western civilisation, but the one I do "wonder/worry" about these days is the US. Tenuous for some, but hey... i'm stupid, why would you expect more :)

As for Tunisia not having a debt problem, thanks for the info. I sit corrected.

Your Bong Buyers guide example... I don't see the US as having political parties anymore (but I agree, i don't think they're totalitarian either).

I have nothing to prove, I voice my concern, I am happy to be wrong.

[Winston001]

You stared the thread, Ace.
Did you not expect any argument?
Is it a private Space Cadets Only thread?
Why don't you make your point?


LOL give Mashman credit. He is a thinker and certain things about the world bother him. Specifically the economic structure and injustices. Many other people don't like it either but they don't make to effort to learn or construct arguments. They find it much easier to grasp at conspiracies and express themselves scatalogically.

I like Mashman and respect his efforts. :2thumbsup:

[mashman]

:rofl: why do I feel like I've just received a pat on the head and sent to the shop for lollies :killingme... cheers for the kind words Wintson... but this is KB :)... I have no problem with Oscars "need" for clarification and have been called far worse than stupid :yes:... and as stoopid people is as they does, as am i think skinned :)... and I like you too :).

[mashman]

will more govts "fall"? Dunno, but with Egypt having now joined in the discontent towards their government (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110129/wl_nm/us_egypt) as Tunisia did, and students in the UK carrying banners that say "Ben Ali, Mubarak... Cameron, you are next." as well as standing outside high street shops "Protesters also attacked high street shops, demanding outside Top Man, Vodafone and Next "pay your taxes"." (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20110129/tuk-police-arrest-16-at-spending-cuts-ra-45dbed5.html) encouraging them to stop evading taxes, I do wonder who's next...

If any of the above govts gave a shit about the people who pay their salaries, then they'd make valid efforts to enforce change, not just "affect" it by tweaking a few laws here and there and misinforming the public by using managed statistics... the politicians sing song reminds me of the Miss World sing song... Miss World always wanting World Peace (never happens), and the politician always wanting to Affect Change (never happens)...

So where is this change they talk about? It's all financial :facepalm:? If so, then why :rofl:, oh because the last govt were shit :shit:... and you're happy with that excuse? Must be a Pavlovs dog thing... yet there were no concerns raised by MP's during the golden age and it took a National govt to offer tax cuts to get into power, Pavlov again :facepalm:

I can understand why people protest. It usually reflects a FACT that there's something terribly wrong with how "things" are being run... slashing of services to pay for tax cuts? Borrowing money to pay tax cuts? has it made a difference to the economy? I'm going for a resounding NO!... after all they're still slashing services and service costs, they're borrowing every increasing sums of money per week to "pay the bills", they're still wanting to sell off public assets... WTF!!! yet there's noone to replace the fuckwits with their agendas... yeah I can see why people protest!