Announcement on ACC funded $2m scheme [Archive]

oneofsix

21st January 2011, 11:54

"The Government has announced that $2 million from ACC levies is to be invested in motorcycle safety.

A newly formed advisory council will be led by economist and motorcyclist, Gareth Morgan.

ACC Minister Nick Smith says the Government wants to work with motorcyclists to improve safety, save lives and reduce the costs of accidents.

He says motorcycling is a popular and efficient means of transportation, but a fatality a week is unacceptable."
I wonder if the reduction in ACC M/C income has anything to do with this

Gareth Morgan chosen because he is good at making money? I guess thats why they put economist first, all and they missed adventurer :msn-wink:

The comment about Honorable Nick could have read better. It suggests it all motorcyclist's fault, that discriminating against scooterists. Serious it should have been "wants to work to improve motorcycle safety".

"motorcycling is a popular and efficient means of transportation" contradicts WCC :bleh:

But this was promised as part of the ACC levy increase, a concession thanks to your protests. :niceone:

MSTRS

21st January 2011, 11:55

Is this from the $30 'safety levy'? Or is it extra from general ACC funds?

avgas

21st January 2011, 11:56

Hmmmmmm how about giving us each $20 discount if we don't crash.

Arghhhhhh I hate Gareth Morgan he is a scammer like the rest......only difference is he acts like he is your mate.

avgas

21st January 2011, 12:01

Gareth Morgan chosen because he is good at making money? I guess thats why they put economist first, all and they missed adventurer
Nope he was selected because he apparently is the "authority" to talk to about anything economics or motorcycling.

Tis a pity Charles Ponzi doesn't ride motorbikes, and is dead - he would be an awesome candidate for the job.

Eyegasm

21st January 2011, 12:09

Arghhhhhh I hate Gareth Morgan he is a scammer like the rest......only difference is he acts like he is your mate.

Gareth is a friend and has never put me wrong.

Hitcher

21st January 2011, 12:27

So there's $2 million to be spent on "motorcycle safety". I hope this isn't wasted on advertising campaigns that are used to either irritate or bore senseless, like the rest of the dosh Government already squanders on road safety publicity.

What of substance, relevance and value can be provided to the motorcycling community for $2 million? I'm keen to learn, as I am completely stumped for ideas myself.

oneofsix

21st January 2011, 12:31

So there's $2 million to be spent on "motorcycle safety". I hope this isn't wasted on advertising campaigns that are used to either irritate or bore senseless, like the rest of the dosh Government already squanders on road safety publicity.

What of substance, relevance and value can be provided to the motorcycling community for $2 million? I'm keen to learn, as I am completely stumped for ideas myself.

They could pay it to me and I promise not to ride again :nono: second thoughts its not worth giving up riding :scooter:

spajohn

21st January 2011, 12:35

Gareth is a friend and has never put me wrong.

I personally find Gareth's advice trust worthy and feel better about this scheme with his involvement. I believe him to be quite down to earth and pragmatic.

Ocean1

21st January 2011, 12:40

What of substance, relevance and value can be provided to the motorcycling community for $2 million? I'm keen to learn, as I am completely stumped for ideas myself.

For $2 million I'll undertake to remove every WRB in the country installed either on the roadside or within less than 3.5 metres of the traffic line.

Just sign here……

What?

It’s substantive, relevant and within budget.

Usarka

21st January 2011, 12:41

ACC Minister Nick Smith says ..... a fatality a week is unacceptable."

Considering that comment is made purely for economic reasons i guess it makes sense for nick to get and economist involved.

mashman

21st January 2011, 13:30

Considering that comment is made purely for economic reasons i guess it makes sense for nick to get and economist involved.

Cars are over 1 a day, but hey, at least they're going to try something :)

Usarka

21st January 2011, 13:34

Cancer - 146/week
Suicide - 10/week
Cars - 7/week
Bikes - 1/week
Murder - 0.9/week

Ooooohhhh those damn bikers! Unacceptable!!

Squiggles

21st January 2011, 14:06

The announcement in full here. (http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-motorcycle-safety-initiative-announced)
It relates to the $30 MSL.

Squiggles

21st January 2011, 14:19

What of substance, relevance and value can be provided to the motorcycling community for $2 million? I'm keen to learn, as I am completely stumped for ideas myself.

Victoria has a similar number of riders and accidents to us so your best bet would be to look at what they've done with the money... (They collect ~$60 per motorcycle owner)

Squiggles

21st January 2011, 14:28

Anyone know anything about the ACC Subsidised Training (http://www.stayupright.co.nz/page6.html)?

Keep meaning to give these guys a bell but not got round to it.

It is probably based around using the $50 training vouchers ACC give out (for use at approved training courses).

avgas

21st January 2011, 14:43

It is probably based around using the $50 training vouchers ACC give out (for use at approved training courses).
Thats a bit BS.
What about those of us whom don't want training - or don't feel it would be useful?

As for Gareth being the bee-nee's (stolen from another random forum):
"I have been doing some research into the various Kiwisaver fund providers (my conclusions coming soonish... maybe) for anyone who opted to join the Garath Morgan Kiwisaver fund there is a provision in there that says they will raise the annual fee to $200/year after three years -that would make their fees around 3 to 4 times that of any other fund so get out while you can!!"

I can provide countless others if your require.
I am not saying he is the devil - but using him as the only resource for things (which is what people do - because "he is a mate") is just down right foolish. I respect people who tell you their ideas, then say that you should get a second opinion to confirm. Gareth has never been that man.

As for him becoming the magnate for this venture......what about the heads of all the other biker organizations in NZ? Why Gareth in particular? Does he have experience with rider safety?
Seems to insider for me to like.

avgas

21st January 2011, 14:45

I propose compulsory track days as a part of registration process.
You don't have race - just prove you can go 100kph without killing yourself.

Usarka

21st January 2011, 15:10

By the time that list of people are paid for their services it'll probably only be $1m.....

Bald Eagle

21st January 2011, 15:13

By the time that list of people are paid for their services it'll probably only be $1m.....

The fund is completely ring fenced only for safety programs. The costs of administering are carried by the ACC operational budget so Gareth Morgan won't be getting rich on our money.

MadDuck

21st January 2011, 15:17

cbfb

21st January 2011, 15:19

It is probably based around using the $50 training vouchers ACC give out (for use at approved training courses).

Sounds like a good plan to me. Will give them a ring I reckon.

Thats a bit BS.
What about those of us whom don't want training - or don't feel it would be useful?

I propose compulsory track days as a part of registration process.
You don't have race - just prove you can go 100kph without killing yourself.

That's a bit of a contradiction. Yep definitely you guys who have been riding for years prob not need basic road lessons (but I've not been riding so long , maybe a couple years so I would be keen). However it's a bloody good idea that you could use them for track-based lessons on how to corner 'enthusiastically' etc.

Edit

These so called "Safety Programs"...what are they?...where are they?...how do they work?

What a crock of BS (nicely put Avgas) once again I seemed to have missed why I am being taxed $30 a year for something...that something I am really not sure what.

Mate you can't write them off if you don't know what they involve! Maybe they involve a bit of fun on the track like Avgas said?! Doubt it but can't hurt to ask. If you're right then yeah, BS ;)

Murray

21st January 2011, 15:20

The $2mill is approx $20- $30 per motocylist. Just give it back to us with a reduction in the ACC levy. All stupid really and will be wasted on most

Squiggles

21st January 2011, 15:21

Thats a bit BS.
What about those of us whom don't want training - or don't feel it would be useful?

Don't take a voucher and use it?
The subsidised training has been around for a couple of years at least. I've still got a stack of vouchers that weren't used by the Auckland Uni Motorcycle Club in 2008 (now invalid)

As for him becoming the magnate for this venture......what about the heads of all the other biker organizations in NZ? Why Gareth in particular? Does he have experience with rider safety?
Seems to insider for me to like.

I believe they wanted someone with experience in the financial sector who has already been involved in one of their working groups (Tax Working Group). I'd say its a bonus that he's a motorcyclist and not an outsider in that respect..

Squiggles

21st January 2011, 15:22

These so called "Safety Programs"...what are they?...where are they?...how do they work?

What a crock of BS (nicely put Avgas) once again I seemed to have missed why I am being taxed $30 a year for something...that something I am really not sure what.

I suggest googling the Victoria scheme...
I've got a few powerpoint presentations on it but they're too big for Kiwibiker, will have to host them somewhere else.

bogan

21st January 2011, 15:23

The $2mill is approx $20- $30 per motocylist. Just give it back to us with a reduction in the ACC levy. All stupid really and will be wasted on most

Im with Murray on this one, the give it back part, not his maths :bleh: (never mind, he fixed it). How much is the CSL for all the cager safety campaigns? Don't see any reason why bikers should pay for ours from our pockets.

Berries

21st January 2011, 17:14

I hope I am going to be told personally what is happening with my $30 and not have to read about it on a forum. Be good to know who is going to get the benefit from my hard earned.

Pixie

21st January 2011, 17:33

Nope he was selected because he apparently is the "authority" to talk to about anything economics or motorcycling.

Tis a pity Charles Ponzi doesn't ride motorbikes, and is dead - he would be an awesome candidate for the job.

His fucking wife has ridden bikes longer than he has - some fucking authority.Just a Government stooge

Pixie

21st January 2011, 17:36

Victoria has a similar number of riders and accidents to us so your best bet would be to look at what they've done with the money... (They collect ~$60 per motorcycle owner)

You only have to read the Australian motorcycle magazines to see the universal opprobrium heaped on the Victorian safety council by motorcyclists.

A notable achievement was the series of motorcycle safety ads that made bikers look like a bunch of moronic antisocial outcasts.

mashman

21st January 2011, 17:37

I believe they wanted someone with experience in the financial sector who has already been involved in one of their working groups (Tax Working Group). I'd say its a bonus that he's a motorcyclist and not an outsider in that respect..

yeah, people in charge of finance "running" the show... that's worked for the country so far :blink:... not having a go, but the Chairperson should not also be in charge of the finances. The Chairperson should be the one with the "social" agenda... leave the money maker to make money and advise what is and isn;t available... With that in mind, i'm kinda with Murray and Bogan.

Squiggles

21st January 2011, 17:56

You only have to read the Australian motorcycle magazines to see the universal opprobrium heaped on the Victorian safety council by motorcyclists.

A notable achievement was the series of motorcycle safety ads that made bikers look like a bunch of moronic antisocial outcasts.

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Moreinfoandservices/Motorcycles/VictorianMotorcycleAdvisoryCouncilAndMotorcycleSaf etyLevy/

Iirc, there was only one ad that got people worked up...

Kickaha

21st January 2011, 17:59

A notable achievement was the series of motorcycle safety ads that made bikers look like a bunch of moronic antisocial outcasts.

So profiled them pretty much spot on then

riffer

21st January 2011, 18:06

And so begins the rot from the uneducated. Allow me to add some sanity to the mix:

There's a number of other names there who deserve mention:

Paul Searancke, Deputy Chairperson (Commissioner: Recreation/Leisure of Motorcycling New Zealand)
Peter McIntosh (President Ulysses Club of NZ Inc)
Yvonne Forrest (Representative of Women's International Motorcycle Association)
Bill Grice (former Chairman of the Motor Industry Association Motorcycle Division)
Brent Hutchison (President of Wellington branch of Bikers Rights Organisation of NZ)
Jess Corbett (Representative of Scoot NZ and the NZ Classic Scooter Club)

You have a representative from MNZ, a representative from Ulysses, a representative from WIMA, a representative from the Motor Industry, a representative from BRONZ, and a representative from the Scroters.

Led by a person who has an enviable record in New Zealand business and with quite a bit of economic nous too - and who's done some pretty cool biking.

The MSF will work through the government's GETZ tendering programme - which means it's totally transparent.

We all have access to StoneY here on KB - and as a friend of mine I know how committed he is to ensuring motorcyclists are put first. Say what you like about Peter Mac but there's no arguing the organisation he represents represent a large proportion of motorcyclists.

I'm just stoked that Mike Noon wasn't allowed on the committee. I wouldn't have been happy about that.

MadDuck

21st January 2011, 18:16

And so begins the rot from the uneducated.

It has been said before. NONE of those people you mention represent me. I am not a member of ANY of their organisations. How then do I have any say whatsoever in how my money is spent. I DONT!

BTW I am quite well educated thank you very much.

riffer

21st January 2011, 18:26

It has been said before. NONE of those people you mention represent me. I am not a member of ANY of their organisations. How then do I have any say whatsoever in how my money is spent. I DONT!

BTW I am quite well educated thank you very much.

Then go and create yourself your own little organisation then Cherie. Hopefully you'll have some great ideas of your own and people will follow you and then you'll get to have a say with TPTB.

In the meantime these people are representing possibly 250,000 people in New Zealand. I'm not sure of the actual figures so this may not be accurate. Either way, they DO have credibility.

AFAIK (it's early days yet) How you have a say in how your money is spent is by coming up with an idea, presenting it to the MSFC. They meet, discuss the ideas they have, decide which will go ahead, and put them out to tender.

What ideas have you got that you don't believe the aforementioned groups don't have? I'd be delighted to hear.

rustic101

21st January 2011, 18:27

It has been said before. NONE of those people you mention represent me. I am not a member of ANY of their organisations. How then do I have any say whatsoever in how my money is spent. I DONT!

BTW I am quite well educated thank you very much.

Could not agree more around your statement MD.

Further more - Each of those organisations have an over inflated opinion of their value and representation, they are toothless ineffective and will be misguided in their direction towards safety. This forum and group will be turned and used to extend the current manipulation of data and information to create self generated issues to justify their existence.

There are three kinds of lies; "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"!
Mark Twain

Shadows

21st January 2011, 18:35

For $2 million I'll undertake to remove every WRB in the country installed either on the roadside or within less than 3.5 metres of the traffic line.

WRB's are only responsible for one motorcycling fatality in this country that I'm aware of. That, and that in order to actually to hit one, a rider must already be in the shit -and that shit won't be as a result of the WRB being there. Root cause and all that.

I hate WRB's too, but I'd rather my money was spent, among other things, to educate truck drivers and roading contractors that leaving diesel and gravel all over the roads is unacceptable, and towards enforcing the laws surrounding that.

Teaching drivers to move their heads slightly to look over their shoulders before changing lanes wouldn't go amiss either.

riffer

21st January 2011, 18:44

Could not agree more around your statement MD.

Further more - Each of those organisations have an over inflated opinion of their value and representation, they are toothless ineffective and will be misguided in their direction towards safety. This forum and group will be turned and used to extend the current manipulation of data and information to create self generated issues to justify their existence.

There are three kinds of lies; "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"!
Mark Twain

And as I said before, WHERE'S YOUR BETTER IDEAS?

IdunBrokdItAgin

21st January 2011, 18:54

Never mind

rustic101

21st January 2011, 18:58

And as I said before, WHERE'S YOUR BETTER IDEAS?

I have a tonne, believe me, ranging from interpersonal attributes of individuals through to infrastructure.

So you say they will represent 250,000 motorcyclists, give or take. That figure is an example of my previous post; a gross exaggeration, in fact my first thought was 'Bullshit' or will the group force their ideas onto any individual that rides?.

The individuals within that group are interested in one thing more than safety - Its their own personal interests, I will not be drawn on commenting on here or singling out specific individuals..

riffer

21st January 2011, 19:08

I have a tonne, believe me, ranging from interpersonal attributes of individuals through to infrastructure.

So you say they will represent 250,000 motorcyclists, give or take. That figure is an example of my previous post; a gross exaggeration, in fact my first thought was 'Bullshit' or will the group force their ideas onto any individual that rides?.

The individuals within that group are interested in one thing more than safety - Its their own personal interests, I will not be drawn on commenting on here or singling out specific individuals..

For sure mate, but the point of the MSF is safety. So therefore that's the framework that we have to work in, for better or for worse. The government didn't have to set this up. They could have just said "Stuff you you're paying another $500-odd".

Wouldn't you rather have some motorcyclists making choices than accountants? Because I tell you what, the accountants are running ACC at the moment.

And how's that working out for you? It ain't working out so good for me...

I have yet to see the terms of reference the MSF works under. I have a bit of info, not much more than you. So I can't really comment on whether individuals self-interest will over-ride their judgement. Time will tell of course.

But I seriously think we need to start coming up with some ideas to present to MSFC rather than bagging the people on it.

Ocean1

21st January 2011, 19:12

...educate truck drivers and roading contractors... Teaching drivers to move their heads slightly to look over their shoulders before changing lanes...

Dude, I'm an engineer. The REAL art of the possible. I leave all that educating, training and teaching shit to people who believe in it.

They're wrong, but at least there's meaning in their lives, eh?

*One old Kenworth and an 800hp Jiffy saw and I'd be finished in a month.*

rustic101

21st January 2011, 19:21

For sure mate, but the point of the MSF is safety. So therefore that's the framework that we have to work in, for better or for worse. The government didn't have to set this up. They could have just said "Stuff you you're paying another $500-odd".

Wouldn't you rather have some motorcyclists making choices than accountants? Because I tell you what, the accountants are running ACC at the moment.

And how's that working out for you? It ain't working out so good for me...

I have yet to see the terms of reference the MSF works under. I have a bit of info, not much more than you. So I can't really comment on whether individuals self-interest will over-ride their judgement. Time will tell of course.

But I seriously think we need to start coming up with some ideas to present to MSFC rather than bagging the people on it.

There is nothing new this group will establish that either does not already exist in NZ Policy, Legislation, Council By Law, Coronial Recommendation or International Best Practice.

There are currently a number of Govt Agencies and NGO's already in place to manage and administer all of these, further more there are private companies providing safety advice and training.

What has just occurred is another layer of bureaucratic self importance. If you think this group will reduce or affect the number of deaths on our roads, believe me when I say they won't. The one thing they will never shape is the human mind for every second it is behind the handle bars with the hand on the throttle.

I've said it before this is a generated solution for a generated issue that does not exist. An example is all the individuals that are anti WRB, yet only one rider has been killed by these and it was not the WRB fault, believe me I've read the facts for that case...

riffer

21st January 2011, 19:26

The one think they will never shape is the human mind for every second it is behind the handle bars with the hand on the throttle.

And this is a big problem because if you are proven to be right they may just well decide that we're not worth allowing to continue our practice.

Real helpful.

FWIW I disagree. And I find this "extra layer of burearacy" a whole lot more positive than another bunch of anti-speeding ads or simply spending 2 million dollars on some more hidden speed cameras.

Start preparing your submissions.

98tls

21st January 2011, 19:35

It has been said before. NONE of those people you mention represent me. I am not a member of ANY of their organisations. How then do I have any say whatsoever in how my money is spent. I DONT!

BTW I am quite well educated thank you very much.

I hear that,i am well sick of hearing about some organisation or individual speaking on behalf of motorcyclists,load of fucking bullshit,most of them ive never heard of christ i wouldnt bother ever again ever going on an organised "group ride" let alone let a group of them speak for me.Motorcycles are dangerous :weird:its not rocket science,if you dont like the odds dont ride em if you do ride and shut up.In 2009 according to ACC 621 people died in there own home 50% or a tad more than the road toll,632,920 people injured in there own home,one every 54 seconds,fuck me bikes are the least of our worries:niceone:All these buggers wanting to speak for the world should maybe look at "safety in the home" rather than tarting on about motorcycles.

rustic101

21st January 2011, 19:37

And this is a big problem because if you are proven to be right they may just well decide that we're not worth allowing to continue our practice.

Real helpful.

FWIW I disagree. And I find this "extra layer of burearacy" a whole lot more positive than another bunch of anti-speeding ads or simply spending 2 million dollars on some more hidden speed cameras.

Start preparing your submissions.

I do believe we will have to agree to disagree ;)

For the record speeding is not killing us!!! I know that for a fact. Riders death rate is actually ok (not a great thing to say for anyone that has lost a loved one) compared to other road users - this includes the fact they have 'farm' motorcycle deaths included in the figures on that beehive website stat section.

We; rider inattention, ego and immaturity (even at 45 lol) Even with crap roads, great tryes, etc etc etc it is our minds that must control our ride, a split second misjudgment will kill us or others...

Again we will have to agree to disagree ;)

Shadows

21st January 2011, 19:42

*One old Kenworth and an 800hp Jiffy saw and I'd be finished in a month.*

I'd give you my 30 bucks to see that.

Who's in?

Morcs

21st January 2011, 19:54

Like seriously what good is the safety campaing going to do for experienced riders?

Those who've been riding a while, encountered every type of near miss, and already had a good string of accidents in their younger years DO NOT need to be told the dangers of motorcycling.

However,

Where i do think something will benefit is that 50cc moped riders that only have a car license and hence have not undertaken ANY kind of motorcycle test or training whatsoever.
Funnily enough though, I was at Scootling the other week (scooter shop opposite red baron in grey lynn auckland) and there was a petition on the front counter AGAINST the implementation of a test and license for said 50cc riding fucktard-muppets - even if the license thing goes ahead, I think a good deal of this campaign should be aimed DIRECTLY at them.

Kickaha

21st January 2011, 19:59

I think a good deal of this campaign should be aimed DIRECTLY at them.

Why? are they the guys who're having single bike crashes and killing and injuring themselves?

riffer

21st January 2011, 20:04

Like seriously what good is the safety campaing going to do for experienced riders?

Well, here's an idea.

We know there's a certain part of a road that's generating a problem, for whatever reason. We make submissions to the MSF. The MSF agrees and commissions an engineering report for Transit to create a realignment on the road. Said report raises the stakes for Transit causing the road realignment to be brought forward as it's a "safety" issue.

End result, a spot which was potentially hazardous to motorcyclists becomes sorted a lot faster.

Muppet

21st January 2011, 20:05

Whatever happens, they are only getting 6 months worth of rego from me ie $331 instead of $591, childish:bleh: but it makes me feel better.

rustic101

21st January 2011, 20:07

Why? are they the guys who're having single bike crashes and killing and injuring themselves?

In a word 'yes' and their riding behavior is appalling. You only need stand on a street in Wellington and observe. Flip Flops, heels, bare skin, no gloves and over riding for the stopping capacity. I'll not mention their riding skills either.

They come off so much worse even at the posted speed limit...Now this alone is more of a drain on the ACC fund.

Kickaha

21st January 2011, 20:13

In a word 'yes' and their riding behavior is appalling. You only need stand on a street in Wellington and observe. Flip Flops, heels, bare skin, no gloves and over riding for the stopping capacity. I'll not mention their riding skills either.

They come off so much worse even at the posted speed limit...Now this alone is more of a drain on the ACC fund.

Regardless of their riding behaviour they're only a cost to ACC if they crash

The majority of accidents where single bike accidents have either killed or seriously injured someone that get reported on here or in the media aren't scooter related

bogan

21st January 2011, 20:15

Well, here's an idea.

We know there's a certain part of a road that's generating a problem, for whatever reason. We make submissions to the MSF. The MSF agrees and commissions an engineering report for Transit to create a realignment on the road. Said report raises the stakes for Transit causing the road realignment to be brought forward as it's a "safety" issue.

End result, a spot which was potentially hazardous to motorcyclists becomes sorted a lot faster.

I think we can agree that the money will benefit motorcyclists to some degree, but so would having that 30 bucks in my pocket still (along with the other 150 odd they raised it by too!). Is there any reason why these motorcycle safety initiatives can't come from the same fund as cage safety initiatives?

Squiggles

21st January 2011, 21:03

I think we can agree that the money will benefit motorcyclists to some degree, but so would having that 30 bucks in my pocket still (along with the other 150 odd they raised it by too!). Is there any reason why these motorcycle safety initiatives can't come from the same fund as cage safety initiatives?

Existing initiatives do... Having $30 back in your pocket would benefit A motorcyclist, not necessarily motorcyclistS :bleh:

98tls

21st January 2011, 21:13

fossil

21st January 2011, 21:18

Yep wonderful,lets rid NZ of any roads with bends in em.Cheers.

How about corners with one apex not 3 or 4?

hellokitty

21st January 2011, 21:18

Cancer - 146/week
Suicide - 10/week
Cars - 7/week
Bikes - 1/week
Murder - 0.9/week

Ooooohhhh those damn bikers! Unacceptable!!

Thanks for the stats - I know I will need them when the people in my life start on about the 1 biker per week dying.

(holy crap! suicide 10 per week that is so awful)

Tink

21st January 2011, 21:25

Did anyone mention training the human race, how to cross the road safely, how to indicate, how to keep their eyes peeled, how to ignore kids while driving, no smoking or cells in cars... patience... god help me I hope this and more is in the new ACC THING!!!

Dream on!

riffer

21st January 2011, 21:41

Yep wonderful,lets rid NZ of any roads with bends in em.Cheers.

Urgh. You bloody well know that's not what I meant. :brick:

Kickaha

21st January 2011, 21:44

Yep wonderful,lets rid NZ of any roads with bends in em.Cheers.

Not as though a TL goes around corners anyway :bleh:

98tls

21st January 2011, 21:44

How about corners with one apex not 3 or 4?

No doubt theres a motorcycle built today to handle corners with 3/4 or more,fuck me theres bikes built today with any label or intended use any mere mortal could even dream about,jesus someone moaning about the roads is a new slant congrats.:niceone:Chuck all the money you like in any direction you like it wont make motorcycling and statistics change one iota,as motorcycles get lighter/faster blah blah blah combined with the fact that for many its no longer a passion but more a fashion/image statement things will only get worse re the cost of it to the country.

98tls

21st January 2011, 21:53

Not as though a TL goes around corners anyway :bleh:

Depends what magazines you bought in the day.Decidedly unfashionable these days though,kept me alive for a decade or so.money well spent i say.:bleh:

98tls

21st January 2011, 22:00

Urgh. You bloody well know that's not what I meant. :brick:

Yea mate i do (couldnt help the sarc).This whole ACC things got me fucked,both the people enforcing it and to be honest in many cases the reasoning of those opposing it.

Pussy

21st January 2011, 22:01

If a few riders left their egos at home, it would drastically improve the statistics.
Wouldn't cost 2 million bucks, either

Berries

21st January 2011, 22:15

We make submissions to the MSF. The MSF ..........
I know what the MSL is, what/who is the MSF ?

98tls

21st January 2011, 22:28

I know what the MSL is, what/who is the MSF ?

A bunch of motorcycles sick of the part they play re the carnage got together to voice there opinion,aptly calling themselves "motorcycles suffer fools".

Berries

21st January 2011, 22:34

Oh well, just in case it wasn't a typo I will keep my rant to myself.........

eelracing

21st January 2011, 23:59

I saw a flyer at the bike shop today advertising a motorcycle handling/safety training course at Manfeild track 30th January(no,not a glorified trackday)Hosted by Karel Pavich I think and the first of four such training days.

I just had a quick look as I was off to work but I think it mentioned things like one on one training in basic skills,handling,braking etc.Suitable for learners/beginners/returners etc.
ACC was mentioned but whether subsidised by or held in conjunction I can't be sure.

I'll have a better squizz at it tomorrow and find out more info.

blackdog

22nd January 2011, 01:54

Grubber

22nd January 2011, 07:30

WRB's are only responsible for one motorcycling fatality in this country that I'm aware of. That, and that in order to actually to hit one, a rider must already be in the shit -and that shit won't be as a result of the WRB being there. Root cause and all that.

I hate WRB's too, but I'd rather my money was spent, among other things, to educate truck drivers and roading contractors that leaving diesel and gravel all over the roads is unacceptable, and towards enforcing the laws surrounding that.

Teaching drivers to move their heads slightly to look over their shoulders before changing lanes wouldn't go amiss either.

Don't really think these things are going to help too much. WRB's have to be hit in the first place to have any effect on ones looks.

It has been said before. NONE of those people you mention represent me. I am not a member of ANY of their organisations. How then do I have any say whatsoever in how my money is spent. I DONT!

BTW I am quite well educated thank you very much.

I sorta agree with this in some small way, but it doesn't have to be like that. As has been said, it is very dependent on the effort you want to put in as to what you will achieve out of it.

And so begins the rot from the uneducated. Allow me to add some sanity to the mix:

There's a number of other names there who deserve mention:

Paul Searancke, Deputy Chairperson (Commissioner: Recreation/Leisure of Motorcycling New Zealand)
Peter McIntosh (President Ulysses Club of NZ Inc)
Yvonne Forrest (Representative of Women's International Motorcycle Association)
Bill Grice (former Chairman of the Motor Industry Association Motorcycle Division)
Brent Hutchison (President of Wellington branch of Bikers Rights Organisation of NZ)
Jess Corbett (Representative of Scoot NZ and the NZ Classic Scooter Club)

You have a representative from MNZ, a representative from Ulysses, a representative from WIMA, a representative from the Motor Industry, a representative from BRONZ, and a representative from the Scroters.

Led by a person who has an enviable record in New Zealand business and with quite a bit of economic nous too - and who's done some pretty cool biking.

The MSF will work through the government's GETZ tendering programme - which means it's totally transparent.

We all have access to StoneY here on KB - and as a friend of mine I know how committed he is to ensuring motorcyclists are put first. Say what you like about Peter Mac but there's no arguing the organisation he represents represent a large proportion of motorcyclists.

I'm just stoked that Mike Noon wasn't allowed on the committee. I wouldn't have been happy about that.

If a few riders left their egos at home, it would drastically improve the statistics.
Wouldn't cost 2 million bucks, either

there is not a single person on this site that would not benefit in one way or another from attending one of these days

(unless they don't actually ride a bike)

I don't actually know too many of these people but then i don't really know too many politicians either and i'm very accepting of the consequences of their actions. One may have to trust them somewhat and hope they can achieve some results that are reflective of my thoughts and needs.

Bottom line for me is, it's my life and it's up to me as an individual to take care of myself and my fellow road users. ei: try not top endanger both them and myself.
Not all subscribe to this theory i feel.:niceone:

Genestho

22nd January 2011, 07:54

http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-motorcycle-safety-initiative-announced

Just had this slide into my inbox yesterday.

Well done to the group and best of luck :niceone: love or hate the idea, it's far better there's a say - than none at all.

It's about having and utilising the ability to present submissions or alternative ideas to a welcome and open ear - Motorcycling orientated.

If you don't take this chance and have your say - then obviously people are going to speak or make decisions on your behalf..

Most submissions I've been involved in have only had at most, a few thousand at a time, this is how little kiwi's care to be involved in what's around them, until it's too late.

This group has easy access to media, data, funding, useful resources and contacts to actually get things done, rather than whinging, or - you could stay with the way things are currently :blank:

riffer

22nd January 2011, 08:05

Oh well, just in case it wasn't a typo I will keep my rant to myself.........

Yeah sorry dude. Typo - Should be MSL, not MSF. My bad.

rustic101

22nd January 2011, 08:21

Yeah sorry dude. Typo - Should be MSL, not MSF. My bad.

Morning Riffer,

Do you know, have you heard if individuals on the MSL group will be paid or receive any financial gain from the fund or Govt? If so how much, or is their involvement purely voluntarily out of love for the cause?

riffer

22nd January 2011, 10:39

Morning Riffer,

Do you know, have you heard if individuals on the MSL group will be paid or receive any financial gain from the fund or Govt? If so how much, or is their involvement purely voluntarily out of love for the cause?

Hey rustic101. I've got no idea. Why don't you ask Stoney since he's a member?

I believe it would be naive to suggest they're doing it for free though. Generally how these things work are that a member is paid for attendance at meetings. If I had to speculate I'd suggest this is how it's done.

p.dath

22nd January 2011, 10:47

Hey rustic101. I've got no idea. Why don't you ask Stoney since he's a member?

I believe it would be naive to suggest they're doing it for free though. Generally how these things work are that a member is paid for attendance at meetings. If I had to speculate I'd suggest this is how it's done.

+1. I would expect it to be paid. You get what you pay for, sometimes.

bogan

22nd January 2011, 11:33

Existing initiatives do... Having $30 back in your pocket would benefit A motorcyclist, not necessarily motorcyclistS :bleh:

and how long before the existing initiative also have to come out of the MSL? The MSL is setting a precedent for future hikes imo. Also, the other motorcyclistS could also be given thier 30 buck back too :bleh:

Berries

22nd January 2011, 11:48

We know there's a certain part of a road that's generating a problem, for whatever reason. We make submissions to the MSF. The MSF agrees and commissions an engineering report for Transit to create a realignment on the road. Said report raises the stakes for Transit causing the road realignment to be brought forward as it's a "safety" issue.

End result, a spot which was potentially hazardous to motorcyclists becomes sorted a lot faster.
If the problem being generated generates crashes, then this is what NZTA actually do. If one corner has ten crashes involving cars on it and another has two involving bikes then the former will be treated first. If there is a corner out there that has had ten crashes involving bikes then I would be surprised if nothing had happened to try and improve it - if NZTA are aware of it. Luckily realignments are expensive, most of them take out the good bits. Tumai overbridge anyone ?

If you are talking of potentially hazardous sites then they are going to be stuck on a list behind sites that do have a crash history. I know of several sections of road down here that NZTA would like to realign, due to both serious and fatal motorbike crashes. They just don't have the money so have to do piecemeal improvements instead.

Going back to the MSL group though. I thought MSL was the Motorcycle Safety Levy Advisory Council and were tasked with directing how the levy income should be spent. I don't see how that gives them any more influence over NZTA than any of the other representative bodies out there like BRONZ. Are you implying that the $30 levy could be used to commission reports ? For a number of reasons, I see that as very poor use of the fund.

Also, for anyone who might know, I notice that the NZTA rep who was on the MSL establishment group has now been dropped. Should anything be read in to that ?

riffer

22nd January 2011, 12:10

Also, for anyone who might know, I notice that the NZTA rep who was on the MSL establishment group has now been dropped. Should anything be read in to that ?

Probably not. Firstly, Jim Furneaux could be construed to have have a conflict of interest by being on this group. Also, as a motorcyclist I believe he's a member of Ulysses, whose purposes are served here by Peter Mac.

But I get you. I wold have like to have seen Jim on the group too.

riffer

22nd January 2011, 12:12

And please guys, don't take my posts as being totally informative. I know as much as you do, and I'm speculating as much as you. To find out more, please talk to the people who are on this group.

Of course Stoney will probably kill me now as his inbox is going to go mental... LOL

Paul in NZ

22nd January 2011, 12:30

eelracing

22nd January 2011, 18:44

I'm not exactly your mainstream biker type.

What worries me is who looks out for the thousands who dont buy new bikes and dont use bike shops much? Last time I asked about a training course it was all good until I mentioned I was going to turn up on a 40+ year old bike.... um....

I dont want to ride around africa or attend a track day - I just want to bubble along slowly on my old shitters.... cheaply....

Mainstream biker type?...no such thing I reckon.

But check this outfit out,they are offering an excellent course and $50 to $95 off the price (ACC subsidised)to Wanganui/Manawatu riders.

http://www.prorider.co.nz/motorcycle-training-courses.php?course=4

riffer

23rd January 2011, 10:09

and how long before the existing initiative also have to come out of the MSL? The MSL is setting a precedent for future hikes imo. Also, the other motorcyclistS could also be given thier 30 buck back too :bleh:

OFFS!!!

Are you advocating an opt-in system here, where some pay, some don't but coverage is extended to all? That kid of crap is the reason I stood up on Parliament steps and shouted to the world not so long ago.

Have you paid ANY attention to the creation of the MSL? Or are you simply talking straight out of your arse? Go back and read some of the work that's been done.

Come on bogan, you can do better than this!

bogan

23rd January 2011, 10:44

OFFS!!!

Are you advocating an opt-in system here, where some pay, some don't but coverage is extended to all? That kid of crap is the reason I stood up on Parliament steps and shouted to the world not so long ago.

Have you paid ANY attention to the creation of the MSL? Or are you simply talking straight out of your arse? Go back and read some of the work that's been done.

Come on bogan, you can do better than this!

I would like to see biker safety campaigns paid from the general fund, ie the same as for cages and other road users. I'll ask again, is there any reason why these motorcycle safety initiatives shouldn't be coming from the same fund as cage safety initiatives?

paulmac

23rd January 2011, 11:25

My 2 cents: If someone is offering subsidised I'd be taking it ! I've been riding for 25+ years and recently did my first track day. Learnt f**ckin heaps too !!
Might see if the South taranaki council want to be involved like manawatu and wanganui seem to be !

Squiggles

23rd January 2011, 15:34

I'll ask again, is there any reason why these motorcycle safety initiatives shouldn't be coming from the same fund as cage safety initiatives?

They do but you've probably seen sfa of them as there aint alot of $$ to go around...

Mom

23rd January 2011, 16:45

I will be appearing as the President of MAG-NZ on Breakfast tomorrow morning defending our stand against the MSL. Early as though, about 7:10, so dont miss it.

MAG-NZ is opposed to the Motorcycle Safety Levy

MAG-NZ is opposed to the Motorcycle Safety Levy (MSL) due to the discriminatory funding model it is based on, and believes any motorcycle specific campaigns should be funded from the general account as other campaigns are. We intend to help ACC achieve their target of lowering motorcycle accidents by highlighting roads for improvement, and encouraging the provision and participation in rider training courses, for both learner and experienced motorcyclists, and reducing the severity of remaining accidents by promoting the use motorcycle friendly road furniture.

Motorcycle Action Group of New Zealand Inc, (MAG-NZ) believes that as private road users we all have a right to travel and enjoy our great country – whether we chose to drive a car, van or 4x4, or ride a motorcycle, scooter or trike – we should all be equal on our roads.

Because the MSL is based on an inequality of road users, MAG-NZ cannot support it. Additionally the ACC levy increase from which the MSL is collected is based on inconsistent and heavily manipulated statistics. The establishment of such a group undermines the "No Fault" principles on which ACC was founded, and puts the scheme in danger of becoming simply “Victim Pays”.

The MSL has been introduced along with the heavily opposed increase in levies as an additional charge; ostensibly to be channeled towards “safety initiatives”. A number of representatives from motorcycling groups are currently proposing how the funding could be spent to benefit their members and the wider motorcycling community. MAG-NZ will not have any representation in the MSL establishment group; now, or at any time in the future, due to the reasons outlined above.

MAG-NZ is currently taking action to work with local authorities and alongside regional ACC offices to provide for tangible, meaningful and measurable improvement in safety for motorcyclists. Utilising proactive, effective ACTION along with member contribution, donations and sponsorship, MAG-NZ hopes to achieve significantly more than the MSL or any other mandatory or penalty based schemes will ever be able to.

Usarka

23rd January 2011, 16:54

Motorcycle Action Group of New Zealand Inc, (MAG-NZ) believes that as private road users we all have a right to travel and enjoy our great country – whether we chose to drive a car, van or 4x4, or ride a motorcycle, scooter or trike – we should all be equal on our roads.

Incl cyclists, horse riders, and pedestrians.

Mom

23rd January 2011, 17:07

So there's $2 million to be spent on "motorcycle safety". I hope this isn't wasted on advertising campaigns that are used to either irritate or bore senseless, like the rest of the dosh Government already squanders on road safety publicity.

There is some hearsay evidence that no discussions on how the MSL is divided up is allowed, though that is denied by members of that committee.

What of substance, relevance and value can be provided to the motorcycling community for $2 million? I'm keen to learn, as I am completely stumped for ideas myself.

Absolutely nothing!

Especially after expenses are levied against the fund. I read that all expenses are paid from general funds. But, clever accounting will ensure that expenses find there way to the "BIKER CRASH" fund.

Cancer - 146/week
Suicide - 10/week
Cars - 7/week
Bikes - 1/week
Murder - 0.9/week

Ooooohhhh those damn bikers! Unacceptable!!

Can you back those numbers up? I like them.

Victoria has a similar number of riders and accidents to us so your best bet would be to look at what they've done with the money... (They collect ~$60 per motorcycle owner)

$60!!!! They better not try that here!

It is probably based around using the $50 training vouchers ACC give out (for use at approved training courses).

Among other things that ACC already fund.

These so called "Safety Programs"...what are they?...where are they?...how do they work?

What a crock of BS (nicely put Avgas) once again I seemed to have missed why I am being taxed $30 a year for something...that something I am really not sure what.

It is discrimination, pure and simple.

I hope I am going to be told personally what is happening with my $30 and not have to read about it on a forum. Be good to know who is going to get the benefit from my hard earned.

Dont hold your breath.

Paul in NZ

23rd January 2011, 17:34

Im hearin ya Mom....

Katman

23rd January 2011, 17:41

How to achieve results at zero cost............

If a few riders left their egos at home, it would drastically improve the statistics.
Wouldn't cost 2 million bucks, either

riffer

23rd January 2011, 17:51

The MSL is a FUND, taken from our levies, and motorcyclists are in charge of it. What more do you want?

BRONZ don't have access to the money, nor do Ulysses, or WIMA, but people who are members of those groups ARE WATCHDOGS.

Also, THEY WILL NOT BE PAID FOR THEIR APPEARANCES. Members are compensated for their attendance expenses at the standard ACC rates.

Every member of the Council is a MINISTERIAL APPOINTEE, not an appointee from the organisation, ergo if the member from Ulysses resigns there is no guarantee another representative from Ulysses will replace him.

Mom

23rd January 2011, 18:33

I have a VERY bad feeling about this. I'm sure all these worthies are fine upstanding people despite at least two of them treating me a little shabbily (IMHO) in the past. Hey - shit happens and I'm not exactly your mainstream biker type.

What worries me is who looks out for the thousands who dont buy new bikes and dont use bike shops much? Last time I asked about a training course it was all good until I mentioned I was going to turn up on a 40+ year old bike.... um....

I dont want to ride around africa or attend a track day - I just want to bubble along slowly on my old shitters.... cheaply....

With any luck I wont disgrace myself tomorrow...

Mainstream biker type?...no such thing I reckon.

But check this outfit out,they are offering an excellent course and $50 to $95 off the price (ACC subsidised)to Wanganui/Manawatu riders.

http://www.prorider.co.nz/motorcycle-training-courses.php?course=4

Not ANOTHER ALREADY subsidised ACC safety initiative already in existance surely?

The MSL is a FUND, taken from our levies, and motorcyclists are in charge of it. What more do you want?

BRONZ don't have access to the money, nor do Ulysses, or WIMA, but people who are members of those groups ARE WATCHDOGS.

Also, THEY WILL NOT BE PAID FOR THEIR APPEARANCES. Members are compensated for their attendance expenses at the standard ACC rates.

Every member of the Council is a MINISTERIAL APPOINTEE, not an appointee from the organisation, ergo if the member from Ulysses resigns there is no guarantee another representative from Ulysses will replace him.

Bless you for being out here talking about this in a positive light. I have no more bling for today.

Usarka

23rd January 2011, 19:03

Can you back those numbers up? I like them.

Was kind of seat-of-pants ACC-style stasticising, but I've looked them up again..... Some are a few years old though...

I've rejigged slightly with comments and updated figures:

Cancer - 153/week (2009?) Source: Cancer Society (http://www.cancernz.org.nz/divisions/auckland/about/cancer-statistics/)
Suicide - 9.2/week (2007) Source: Ministry of Health 2010 Social Report (http://www.socialreport.msd.govt.nz/health/suicide.html)
Cars - 5.1/week (2008) Source: NZTA
(http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/MOT_Motor%20vehicle%20crashes%202008_Full%20versio n.pdf)Murder - 1.9/week (2009) Source: NZ Police Statistics 2009 (http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/services/statistics/00_National_Official_Stats_2009.pdf)
Bikes - 1/week Source: Nick Smith
Pedestrians - .6/week (2008) Source: NZTA
(http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/MOT_Motor%20vehicle%20crashes%202008_Full%20versio n.pdf)

PS - please double check these links/figures if you're going to use them!

fossil

23rd January 2011, 22:37

[QUOTE=Mom;1129964813]There is some hearsay evidence that no discussions on how the MSL is divided up is allowed, though that is denied by members of that committee.

Wow, I trust you will back this up and call them liars on tv tomorrow.

"Especially after expenses are levied against the fund. I read that all expenses are paid from general funds. But, clever accounting will ensure that expenses find there way to the "BIKER CRASH" fund."

If you have proof they are outside the stated terms of reference I suggest you contact the serious fraud office, or is innuendo MAG-NZ'ds modus operandi.

Maha

24th January 2011, 04:30

I thought innuendo was some sort of medical paste for a diarrhoea blockage?

Usarka

24th January 2011, 06:42

Oakie

24th January 2011, 06:57

"Or give us a call if you don't like motorcyclists"

Fuck off Breakfast and your weak attempt at biased sensationalism. Get a real journalistic jobs Corin, and Petra go back to shit reality tv shows. We're better off reading the womans weekly, thats where they get half their material from anyway.

Did you note the txt response on the ticker underneath the picture ... "Motorcyclists are temporary citizens anyway". Hardly original but perhaps there is an attitiude there that we are of less value as people than other road users. Perhaps some of the 2 mil could be thrown at that perception?

The Stranger

24th January 2011, 07:22

What a crock of BS (nicely put Avgas) once again I seemed to have missed why I am being taxed $30 a year for something...that something I am really not sure what.

Do you know where the other tens of thousands of your tax go?

Nasty

24th January 2011, 07:24

Is this from the $30 'safety levy'? Or is it extra from general ACC funds?

That it is

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4565955/Government-picks-Morgan

I think the article begs the question on how much these people are being paid of the $2 mil to set up these intiatives - but that is more of a Question to parliament to get the answers first. Chairing a group and even participating there are huge costs are these to come out of the amount set aside.

We have already seen to happen with other govt intiatives that heaps of the money is spent on the committee and set up with way less than should going to the programmes.

Fatt Max

24th January 2011, 07:43

Just watched the reply of this article on the TV One web site, nice one Mom.

As for Petra, who the fuck does she think she is, skinny little tart....that woman needs a big black dog up her and a family size mince and cheese in her, I quote:

....maybe put on a bit of weight......

Thats extreme weightism that is...how many fat bikers have caused accidents? I'll tell you, none....the only accidents we have is when we eat a dodgy Mrs Macs at a servo, hit a bump in the road an hour later and have an 'accident' of the pants variety....

So fuck off Petra, what do you know......

Rant over, oooh look a servo, wonder do they have a pie warmer...???

riffer

24th January 2011, 08:22

That it is

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4565955/Government-picks-Morgan

I think the article begs the question on how much these people are being paid of the $2 mil to set up these intiatives - but that is more of a Question to parliament to get the answers first. Chairing a group and even participating there are huge costs are these to come out of the amount set aside.

We have already seen to happen with other govt intiatives that heaps of the money is spent on the committee and set up with way less than should going to the programmes.

Let's make one thing clear.

NONE OF THE MONEY FROM THE MSL LEVY GOES TOWARDS THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS.

do you understand yet?

All of their expenses are being met by ACC. This has been mentioned countless times. When are you going to start listening?

edit: This is not personally against you Kari - if people had actually read the info they'd already know that all the expenses are met out of ACC's funds, not the MSL. That money is exclusively for MSL initiatives, which will be open to tender through the GETZ system.

Nasty

24th January 2011, 08:26

Let's make one thing clear.

NONE OF THE MONEY FROM THE MSL LEVY GOES TOWARDS THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS.

do you understand yet?

All of their expenses are being met by ACC. This has been mentioned countless times. When are you going to start listening?

thanks for making that clear - I had not seen it - so obviously can not be listening ... but that only answered part of what I asked ... :)

Usarka

24th January 2011, 09:01

Let's make one thing clear.

NONE OF THE MONEY FROM THE MSL LEVY GOES TOWARDS THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS.

Eh? :lol:

I thought Morgan was quite clear about that on the telly...

riffer

24th January 2011, 09:28

thanks for making that clear - I had not seen it - so obviously can not be listening ... but that only answered part of what I asked ... :)

??? Which bit haven't I answered?

MSTRS

24th January 2011, 09:48

Let's make one thing clear.

NONE OF THE MONEY FROM THE MSL LEVY GOES TOWARDS THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS.

The cynical amongst us cannot forget those famous words "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"
:devil2:
See, the trouble is, when things are political, words don't always mean just what they say. The creation of a seperate levy was a master stroke in splitting biker loyalties, and cheap in the scheme of things where ACC is concerned. A lot of us are not happy with being targetted (as Anne said on TV) so will for ever remain suspicious of what goes on behind the scenes.

Fatt Max

24th January 2011, 09:50

The cynical amongst us cannot forget those famous words "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

Now just hang the fuck on a minute there mate, me and Anne are just good friends, everyone knows that....

....as for Susan Boyle.....

riffer

24th January 2011, 09:55

I understand that John, but everyone must remember that what you are saying is merely your speculation, and a lot of people are presenting it as if it were already happening.

What is the truth is that a number of motorcycling groups managed to ring-fence some of the extortionate rise in ACC levies into a fund, to be managed by motorcyclists purely for work that benefits motorcyclists.

To make specious claims that the general funds MUST pay for work that only benefits motorcyclists, and makes NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER for the majority of road users, is just not going to happen in today's society. For better or worse, our government works on the principle that if the minority want something done they have to reach into their pockets.

Now we have some talented individuals with a genuine interest in improving the lot of NZ motorcycling, and motorcyclists, who are giving up their time, UNPAID, to vet proposals FROM A MOTORCYLING VIEWPOINT, and the best you guys can come up with is that you think it has the potential to be corrupted?

News flash. EVERYTHING HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE CORRUPTED.

But at the end of the day, these people have reputations they're putting on the line here. And shitting on their reputations before they've even had the opportunity to get started is pretty damn rotten in my opinion.

bogan

24th January 2011, 09:55

A lot of us are not happy with being targetted (as Anne said on TV) so will for ever remain suspicious of what goes on behind the scenes.

Exactly, course if it wasn't done behind the scenes, rather in the open, we would be a lot less suspicious. Does anyone know how much transparency there will be with the MSL?

riffer

24th January 2011, 09:57

Exactly, course if it wasn't done behind the scenes, rather in the open, we would be a lot less suspicious. Does anyone know how much transparency there will be with the MSL?

Of course not. The bloody thing was announced three days ago. FFS!

Come on, tell the truth. Your just pissed because no-one from MAG is on the committee aren't you?

bogan

24th January 2011, 10:00

For better or worse, our government works on the principle that if the minority want something done they have to reach into their pockets.

It aint my hand reaching into my pocket though, and thats what I object to, I'm sure others feel the same.

Of course not. The bloody thing was announced three days ago. FFS!

the levy was announced over a year ago, and they have collected it for months.

Come on, tell the truth. Your just pissed because no-one from MAG is on the committee aren't you?

don't try and make this personal, its not a good look.

GOONR

24th January 2011, 10:02

....

Come on, tell the truth. Your just pissed because no-one from MAG is on the committee aren't you?

erm, NOPE!

MSTRS

24th January 2011, 10:18

What is the truth is that a number of motorcycling groups managed to ring-fence some of the extortionate rise in ACC levies into a fund, to be managed by motorcyclists purely for work that benefits motorcyclists.

They did. And a good idea it was, on the surface. As I said though, it played brilliantly into Nick the Prick's hands. It lent the levy hike an air of legitimacy and so split biker loyalties. You will never get every biker to support it because it is not voluntary.
If every other motorist's rego contained a 'safety levy' then that would even the playing field and I'm sure the support would be there. Or do away with the m/c only levy. After all, safety on a motorcycle is not limited to the rider's actions, and with half our crashes being the fault of others, it's no wonder riders are crook on paying for Joe Car Driver's poor road skills when JCD doesn't pay.

Maha

24th January 2011, 10:24

Come on, tell the truth. Your just pissed because no-one from MAG is on the committee aren't you?

Do you communicate with Brent at all?...
Why would anyone from MAG want to be on a committiee that is duty bound to serve the government and a department thereof, when we apposed to the very reason why the committe was set up in the first place?
You guys have known all along where MAG stands on the MSL issue.
The MSL has about as much credence as the Govt asking/taking $23 from our registration and calling it a Kevlar Resource Funding Tax.

Nasty

24th January 2011, 10:33

Of course not. The bloody thing was announced three days ago. FFS!

Come on, tell the truth. Your just pissed because no-one from MAG is on the committee aren't you?

Would be interesting since MAG does not agree with it, why would they want to be on the committee. If I was a member of any of MAG there is no way I would be pissed as if they were there they would be contradicting what they stand for.

Interesing the article mentioned that it is also for use of education of drivers.

avgas

24th January 2011, 10:48

I believe they wanted someone with experience in the financial sector who has already been involved in one of their working groups (Tax Working Group).
Any chance I can ask why.
I mean I am no hedge fund manager or anything - so my money maths is not superb. But to me it would make more sense to get a project manager. Seeing as 99.99% of the job is expenditure rather than generating funds........

Smells rather ETS to me

avgas

24th January 2011, 10:53

there is not a single person on this site that would not benefit in one way or another from attending one of these days

(unless they don't actually ride a bike)
I got a flyer on my car window today. New boxing gym / fitness center.
If you think that everyone would benefit from "basic skills" bike training........thats fair enough.
I mean clearly someone out there thinks everyone needs a gym membership and is fat.

Don't mean its always true.

avgas

24th January 2011, 10:58

Paul Searancke, Deputy Chairperson (Commissioner: Recreation/Leisure of Motorcycling New Zealand)
Peter McIntosh (President Ulysses Club of NZ Inc)
Yvonne Forrest (Representative of Women's International Motorcycle Association)
Bill Grice (former Chairman of the Motor Industry Association Motorcycle Division)
Brent Hutchison (President of Wellington branch of Bikers Rights Organisation of NZ)
Jess Corbett (Representative of Scoot NZ and the NZ Classic Scooter Club)
Reminds me of a joke.
How many committee members does it take to get a refund?
Nothing against the guys above - I am sure they will do a great job........but the public has pretty much spoken.

riffer

24th January 2011, 11:01

Reminds me of a joke.
How many committee members does it take to get a refund?
Nothing against the guys above - I am sure they will do a great job........but the public has pretty much spoken.

Four whiners does not "the public" make.

StoneY

24th January 2011, 11:04

That it is

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/133591-MSL-Council-to-be-lead-by-Gareth-Morgan?p=1129965377#post1129965377

I think the article begs the question on how much these people are being paid of the $2 mil to set up these intiatives - but that is more of a Question to parliament to get the answers first. Chairing a group and even participating there are huge costs are these to come out of the amount set aside.

Please read this post here I cant be arsed writing it all out again

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/133591-MSL-Council-to-be-lead-by-Gareth-Morgan/page3

The fund is protected by LAW
There is no 'bucket' for any of the reps to swill from, we cant touch the fund we can only approve expenditure

Not ONE cent of this fund will be spent on its management, only on approved projects
And I take a major financial hit attending these meetings as do the other members

Peace

Quasievil

24th January 2011, 11:10

StoneY

24th January 2011, 11:18

All seems to be getting overly politicized dont yall think, to many interest groups and people getting on the safety band wagon with agendas striving for the same goal ?

hate to be to pessimistic but I dont think anything will change to much, fragmented approaches dont work, they just create confusion and B.S power struggles.

There is no power struggles in our council meetings Brett.

I sit right beside a bloke I have very little persoanl opinion of, yet we work collaboratively on whats RIGHT for thos paying the extra 30$ per bike they own, because the cause is far more important than my own ego, or even the duties I have for BRONZ

Only assumptions of such power struggles and rorting exist on KB and outright two faced bullshit

Roadsafe Nelson

24th January 2011, 11:19

The Nelson, Tasman, Marlborough District & now also Wellington City Councils have all contracted Roadsafe Motorcycle Riding Techniques Ltd to provide professional rider training courses, which are heavily subsidised by the Councils and ACC.

These are full day courses, from 9 - 4.30 & participants pay only $20!! (Wgtn's pricing is yet to be confirmed) These courses would normally cost over $200 per person for the day

The courses cover from beginner riders on L plates, right through to the biggest cruiser & sports bikes.. & everything inbetween.

These courses are extremely popular, & every person who has attended has commented on how extremely beneficial it was for them!

We have our next series of full day on-road training courses coming up in 3 weeks.

Roadsafe Instructors are all:

NZTA qualified riding instructors
Members of the Institute of Advanced Motorists (IAM - British Police Training)
Members of the NZ Institute of Driver Educators

I am also a driving instructor & certified to run "Street Talk" (Defensive riding & driving courses - to reduce licence time)

ACC are extremely supportive of the Roadsafe courses

www.roadsafenelson.co.nz
www.roadsafe.co.nz

Genestho

24th January 2011, 11:21

I agree there Q, everyone appears to want the same outcome??

Actions speak louder than words.

Roll ya sleeves up and get into it, or get out of it, whichever, I recon ya'll need to sort it out.

mashman

24th January 2011, 11:27

I'm a member of BRONZ, I'm a member of MAG-NZ. I ride a bike. I drive a car. Who paid for the motorcycle campaigns of yesteryear? Who paid for the Enjoy the Ride campaign?

If ACC were truly concerned with reducing the accident rates, they'd have a single safety levy, charging $10 on all vehicles. That would drastically swell the safety fund for ALL road users, no bias towards user groups etc...

On that basis I find the MSL utterly insulting to my limited intelligence. But the MSL exists and hopefully will save a life or two, although I highly doubt it will be solely responsible for doing that. I would imagine that everyone on the MSL Committee also drives a car and therefore has the best intentions towards all road users by default. So why limit it to motorcycles?

If we're 50/50, in regards to blame for accidents involving motorcycles, then why the seperate levy? Even if we tidy up our act 100%, we'll still be dying at the hands of the drivers... It will then be 100% the cars fault. Then what? Erm...

It's a pathetic levy that serves no purpose other than to single motorcyclists out and charge them for it... as if the higher levies haven't already done so for years.

I'm pretty fuckin disappointed that the MSL was allowed, let alone conceived...

GOONR

24th January 2011, 11:31

Ocean1

24th January 2011, 11:36

I'm pretty fuckin disappointed that the MSL was allowed, let alone conceived...

Think that covers it nicely, cheers.

StoneY

24th January 2011, 11:38

It's a pathetic levy that serves no purpose other than to single motorcyclists out and charge them for it... as if the higher levies haven't already done so for years.

I'm pretty fuckin disappointed that the MSL was allowed, let alone conceived...

Knowing you personally bro, I can understand the emotion behind this
But it DOES exist, and we at least have Motorcyclists in the hot seat regarding its expenditure

Gareth Morgan is no ones fool,and he has given up a chunk of his own international travels this year to chair the council
Not ONE member of the council recieves remunerative reward for attendance, nor do their parent organisations they were approached due to being a member of gets ANY special treatment from MSL or ACC....

Its all I can say.................. all the rest is in the other threads and I am getting a sore forehead from banging that spot on the wall over and over and over............

The levy hikes happened and we can argue that till the end of time
Its what we do NOW with what we HAVE thats going to matter.

Quasievil

24th January 2011, 11:39

not even one page and there is NZ riders are Voters, Ridesafe Nelson, Bronz

get me point ?

we should start another maybe NZMAO New Zealand Action Motorcycle Action Organisation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

Fatt Max

24th January 2011, 11:43

I mean clearly someone out there thinks everyone needs a gym membership and is fat.

Fucking tell me about it. Takes me an hour a day to clear the Jenny Craig, Les Mills and Special K flyers off the bonnet of my car every day, bastards.....

Owl

24th January 2011, 11:43

we should start another maybe NZMAO New Zealand Action Motorcycle Action Organisation

But that would be NZAMAO! Bit long???:msn-wink:

Fatt Max

24th January 2011, 11:53

But that would be NZAMAO! Bit long???:msn-wink:

I reckon it should be the Legendary Motorcycle Action Organisation, or LMAO for short, cos that is what the pollies will be doing when they read these threads and see how fucking divided the motorcycling community is becoming.

I dont have the answer but all I want is a quiet, diet-free life and for bikers everywhere to stop throwing shit about and falling into the hands of those that really do want us off the road.

Thats all I want, oh and a pir of Subo's undies.....

Mom

24th January 2011, 11:55

Of course not. The bloody thing was announced three days ago. FFS!

It has been months in the planning though, not just a couple of days, and I think the question of transparency is a valid one to be honest.

The Nelson, Tasman, Marlborough District & now also Wellington City Councils have all contracted Roadsafe Motorcycle Riding Techniques Ltd to provide professional rider training courses, which are heavily subsidised by the Councils and ACC.

These are full day courses, from 9 - 4.30 & participants pay only $20!! (Wgtn's pricing is yet to be confirmed) These courses would normally cost over $200 per person for the day

The courses cover from beginner riders on L plates, right through to the biggest cruiser & sports bikes.. & everything inbetween.

These courses are extremely popular, & every person who has attended has commented on how extremely beneficial it was for them!

We have our next series of full day on-road training courses coming up in 3 weeks.

Roadsafe Instructors are all:

NZTA qualified riding instructors
Members of the Institute of Advanced Motorists (IAM - British Police Training)
Members of the NZ Institute of Driver Educators

I am also a driving instructor & certified to run "Street Talk" (Defensive riding & driving courses - to reduce licence time)

ACC are extremely supportive of the Roadsafe courses

www.roadsafenelson.co.nz
www.roadsafe.co.nz

Well done you! This very acurately spells out what I was atttempting to get accross this morning on TV, we dont need a MSL or anything like it, there is already funding and wonderful support for motorcycle safety initiatives from our current ACC pool.

mashman

24th January 2011, 11:57

Knowing you personally bro, I can understand the emotion behind this
But it DOES exist, and we at least have Motorcyclists in the hot seat regarding its expenditure

The levy hikes happened and we can argue that till the end of time
Its what we do NOW with what we HAVE thats going to matter.

I fully understand the reality and that the MSL exists mate, as I think most do, like it or not, and I will submit submissions when the time comes, as I would imagine most will... to that end I will support BRONZ in it's capacity to get the best bang for buck from the MSL... but I will support MAG-NZ, to a greater degree (read more passion :)), to get the MSL removed or have it superceeded with a "fairer" safety levy or whatever ideas they come up with...

See ya next week Stones :) perhaps the dear lady will soothe thy throbbing brow

Usarka

24th January 2011, 11:59

not even one page and there is NZ riders are Voters, Ridesafe Nelson, Bronz

get me point ?

we should start another maybe NZMAO New Zealand Action Motorcycle Action Organisation

New Zealand Legislative Motorcycle Focus Action Organisation. lmfao!

MSTRS

24th January 2011, 12:59

Interesting the article mentioned that it is also for use of education of drivers.
Which was exactly my point, earlier. If 'we' are to be levied, THEN SO SHOULD THEY.

An unpaid ad for a business that utilises existing ACC funds, in conjunction with certain enlightened city councils, for the purposes of creating 'safer' riders.

No MSL needed.

If ACC were truly concerned with reducing the accident rates, they'd have a single safety levy, charging $10 on all vehicles. That would drastically swell the safety fund for ALL road users, no bias towards user groups etc...

Hear hear

Squiggles

24th January 2011, 13:22

I think the question of transparency is a valid one to be honest.

Terms of Reference etc are on this (http://www.acc.co.nz/for-individuals/motorcyclists/index.htm) page...

StoneY

24th January 2011, 13:28

Terms of Reference etc are on this (http://www.acc.co.nz/for-individuals/motorcyclists/index.htm) page...

What he said

There has been transparency ever since the levies went up....there has been no closed doors and no secrets...its all public knowledge.
As well as the NUMEROUS times we have posted updates and information on Kiwibiker....
But then again I suppose us who have been sharing the information are all just too keen to feed at the trough......... after all thats what the average KBer seems to think of us despite the ammout of very public information on the whole process being right there to read on ACCs website

blackdog

24th January 2011, 13:56

I got a flyer on my car window today. New boxing gym / fitness center.
If you think that everyone would benefit from "basic skills" bike training........thats fair enough.
I mean clearly someone out there thinks everyone needs a gym membership and is fat.

Don't mean its always true.

the benefits may not be from the training itself, and i'm not sure that we are talking about basic training either, my understanding was that we are talking intermediate to advanced here

if you think there is nothing else you can still learn you are mistaken

MSTRS

24th January 2011, 14:27

the benefits may not be from the training itself, and i'm not sure that we are talking about basic training either, my understanding was that we are talking intermediate to advanced here

if you think there is nothing else you can still learn you are mistaken

Unless TV ads, roadside billboards etc are what is done, then I reckon the fund will be spent on subsidised training aimed at new bikers and returnees.
Experienced riders won't really be the target.

Usarka

24th January 2011, 14:32

If there's any hint of compuslory hi-vis i will be loading the rifle.

Followed some goose in the car today he wearing his hi-vis and he couldn't ride for shit. I had no idea where he was going (at 40kph) and how safe it was to overtake without killing him. Much better and safer to get some training/skills than to wear a fluoro jacket.

StoneY

24th January 2011, 14:47

If there's any hint of compuslory hi-vis i will be loading the rifle.

I would be holding the bandolier for ya myself...thats simply not gonna happen man, not from MSL anyway.

Training and Engineering/Education projects are likely to be the initial focus points

Usarka

24th January 2011, 14:49

Sweet bro I know you're on our side - do us proud!

avgas

25th January 2011, 08:26

Four whiners does not "the public" make.
Are you sure?
Seemed to in the past - isn't that why we have a "safety levy"?

riffer

25th January 2011, 14:27

Are you sure?
Seemed to in the past - isn't that why we have a "safety levy"?

I was referring to some of the posts in this thread mate. On the contrary, the reason we have a safety levy is because one particular individual, seeing the writing on the wall, tried to capture some of the ridiculous increase and ring-fence it for a fund that motorcyclists had some say in.

I find it ironic that the majority of the complaints about "noses in the trough" come from individuals sympathetic to persons who were emailing BRONZ enquiring about how to "get their hands on some of that money". Public statements of opposition to the MSL did not come until after it was publicly announced that no-one was getting handouts and that there was no free-for-all.

Lucyloo

25th January 2011, 14:59

[QUOTE=Maha;1129965430]Why would anyone from MAG want to be on a committiee that is duty bound to serve the government and a department thereof, when we apposed to the very reason why the committe was set up in the first place?
You guys have known all along where MAG stands on the MSL issue.
QUOTE]

I agree wholeheartedly - being on the MSL committee would be giving approval of the whole sorry debacle and I am very proud that MAG has chosen the stance that they have.

rustic101

25th January 2011, 18:16

I've just read a few other posts and threads where the Minister is referred to as 'Nick'. I would strongly suggest that you call or refer to him as 'the Minister', and not Nick!!! You need to keep these slippery pricks (all parties) at arms length, anything else will see you being used and manipulated even more than you are already.

I have said this before and will continue to say this! The MSL fund and committee is an absolute joke, in fact its almost insulting. It has been self manufactured out of an issue that does not exist when putting motorcyclists crash and death rate into perspective with other road users. This has been done using statistics and figures that are manipulated to suit that justification rather than the truth.

The committee will bring nothing, yes nothing new to 'reduce' the death, crash or injury rate of motorcyclists that is not already being done by existing agencies like MOT, LTSA, Transit, Police, ACC and a host of NGO's. This includes the education of other road users towards motorcyclists. What the committee have created is another bureaucratic layer that will achieve nothing and further divide other Agencies targeting the alleged issue' and make progress even slower with in house fighting and who controls what....

Individuals and their supporters are saying its a fund that is managed by 'motorcyclists'; yet I have no control over this fund, I do not belong to any of the groups represented on the 'committee', nor would I want any of these people representing me. Other claims have been made they will not be reimbursed, well bollocks.

There are plenty of safety and skills courses that individuals can do if they choose to do so. This committee or its outputs will never, never change the one thing that is killing riders 'Their minds', by this I mean their physiological make up. You can rap them in cotton wool however it is the split second amygdala response that will kill you every time. Further to this licenced and registered riders are not the 'guilty culprits', a very large % of deaths are the direct result of unregistered, unlicensed riders, over powered for class of licences, or individuals on stolen bikes. Again the issue has been squarely label on the 90%ish of us that are law abiding. This is also evident with the likes of firearms; the risk is not with the 'legal registered users.

Personally I feel as if my voice was sold out, prior to the BIKIO I heard, we will never back down, never cave in, all the raa raa, etc etc etc. I stood on Parliament Grounds and clearly heard those words 'BULL SHIT, BULL SHIT'...

It is sometimes better to be beaten, bloodied and torn by a beast yet have the pride to stand tall united than to have pandered to the Master and used as a Mariette.

Katman

25th January 2011, 18:52

Further to this licenced and registered riders are not the 'guilty culprits', a very large % of deaths are the direct result of unregistered, unlicensed riders, over powered for class of licences, or individuals on stolen bikes.

The vast majority of motorcycle accidents are had by motorcyclists who don't have sufficient skills to get themselves out of spots of bother, by motorcyclists who don't have sufficient situational awareness, and by motorcyclists who persist in riding in a manner that makes them an accident waiting to happen.

Ocean1

25th January 2011, 19:09

I have said this before and will continue to say this!

Wonder if all the red you'll get will be recanted when history proves you right.

Outa green.

scracha

25th January 2011, 19:15

There has been transparency ever since the levies went up....there has been no closed doors and no secrets...its all public knowledge.
As well as the NUMEROUS times we have posted updates and information on Kiwibiker....
But then again I suppose us who have been sharing the information are all just too keen to feed at the trough......... after all thats what the average KBer seems to think of us despite the ammout of very public information on the whole process being right there to read on ACCs website

Prior to the "bikeoi" wot BRONZ allegedly arranged, there was fuck all mention of how BRONZ and numerous other "bikers interest" groups would roll over and take it from "the man" Nick Smith.

You (Stoney), Les and all the other motherfuckers at BRONZ can go and take a royal fuck to yourselves for selling us out.

rustic101

25th January 2011, 20:51

Wonder if all the red you'll get will be recanted when history proves you right.

Outa green.

I haven't received as much of a spanking for being honest (yet).

One thing is for sure though - The Govt have fragmented the motorcycle community...

Katman

25th January 2011, 21:12

The Govt have fragmented the motorcycle community...

Yeah, we were such a harmonious bunch of sportsbike, cruiser, jappa, harley, scooter riders before they got involved.

riffer

25th January 2011, 21:37

Prior to the "bikeoi" wot BRONZ allegedly arranged, there was fuck all mention of how BRONZ and numerous other "bikers interest" groups would roll over and take it from "the man" Nick Smith.

You (Stoney), Les and all the other motherfuckers at BRONZ can go and take a royal fuck to yourselves for selling us out.

All right then, how exactly did we sell you out? The levies were going to go up by $500+. Some of us protested, and gave up a HUGE amount of personal time and income to argue the case.

Yes the levies went up. But they were always going to. Even if motorcyclists started closing down cities around the country they still would have gone up. Despite the protestations of the cynics, I believe we had a part to play in reducing the amount they went up. For sure, all the people who came to the bikoi played a huge part, something those of us at BRONZ and other organisations will be eternally grateful for.

And we managed to get a certain amount of the increase split off from ACC and DEDICATED TO IMPROVING MOTORCYCLE SAFETY. And it is being run BY MOTORCYCLISTS FOR MOTORCYCLISTS.

If you think that continuing to protest after the government had passed that into law would have made a damn bit of different I suggest you are seriously politically naive.

Actually I'll make one correction. A huge amount of protest may have made a difference - the government may have decided to scrap the MSL and throw that $30 straight into the ACC coffers - and then do you know how much influence motorcyclists would have had over how ACC money is spent?

Absolutely fuck all.

You are certainly free to continue to protest. And BRONZ haven't given up on anything. We still want to see a reduction in the ACC levies, which we don't believe are justified. But the government are digging their heels in. They've said that unless we reduce the amount of money that ACC has to spend on motorcycle injuries those levies aren't moving.

You will observe that the levies aren't going up in the next financial year. Do you think that's because the government decided to be nice? Like hell.

So before you start calling my colleagues and I motherfuckers and accusing us of selling out have a little think about how much work we've put in, and how much we are continuing to put in. How much work are you doing to make an impact on the levies and motorcycling safety? And go back and have a read of the bikoi threads to find out what really happened. I'm getting a little over listening to people with no memories trying to rewrite history.

And as for fucking myself, I don't need to. I have a lovely wife to help me with that. In fact I think I'll go to bed now. I'll leave you to your hand.

Squiggles

25th January 2011, 23:33

Further to this licenced and registered riders are not the 'guilty culprits', a very large % of deaths are the direct result of unregistered, unlicensed riders, over powered for class of licences, or individuals on stolen bikes. Again the issue has been squarely label on the 90%ish of us that are law abiding.

Head in the sand or have you got a source to back up those claims?
Land Transport's 2010 Factsheet is here (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-crash-fact-sheet-2010.pdf) and it looks like the majority are average joes...

StoneY

26th January 2011, 12:42

You (Stoney), Les and all the other motherfuckers at BRONZ can go and take a royal fuck to yourselves for selling us out.

I made a promise to myself and a few close friends to not let this sort of personal insult on KB get to me anymore but you calling me and my hard working executive panel Motherfuckers is pathetic.

I and the people in BRONZ Wellington, as well as those who formed the Federation, have worked TIRELESSLY to ensure the MSL was not just absorbed into ACC's general accounts, and that AA never had a chance to manage it.
Not alone there either, WIMA, Ulysses, MNZ, HOG, Scootz NZ...all were involved and COMITTED to working on behalf of persons like you.

Work you're obviously too ignorant and lazy to take on for yourself.

Morons like you do NOTHING but bleat from the safety of thier computer desk and call other people who DO make a difference names, just because we couldnt gain 100% victory over the govt?
How much do you think it would have been without BIKEOI?

No wonder Les Mason stopped coming on KB...he must have put up with dickheads like YOU for years now... in all honesty I dont blame the man for leaving this place behind

You know who really sold US out Scratcha? Lazy pricks like YOU who just bleat and bitch about the 'unfair levies' while you do NOTHING at all to make a difference

You are simply pathetic
If your so concerned we let you down, go ride a motorcycle in the UK, or Germany, or Victoria...see how much THEY pay to use a motorcycle

Kiwi675

26th January 2011, 14:04

StoneY

26th January 2011, 14:13

Kiwi675

26th January 2011, 14:20

So what has the change in registered "owners" been over the last ten year period?? Up. down, stagnant..............??

bogan

26th January 2011, 14:22

A simple statistic that should be looked at: Total motorcycle deaths 2009 - 48, 2010 -50. Farm bike deaths (included in the above figures) 2009 - 9, 2010 - 17. So, total deaths on road, 2009 - 39, 2010 - 33. Maybe means nothing, but worth thinking about where one of the major issues lie (especially given the huge increase in registered motorcycles in NZ.

how do you know farm bike deaths are in there? Our research has shown some farm bike injuries have ogt in with road bikes, but this is due to poor data gathered at the scene, and incomplete forms, the policy is to keep them separate. I would guess that for deaths they are even less prevalent as the more serious the accident, the better the data gathered at the scene should be, but that is just my guess.

One thing we must also remember (devils advocate and something we as a community need to assess properly) is the number of multiple motorcycle owners out there

I own 3 registered motorcycles
I am the ONLY rider of all 3
The motorcycle fleet HAS Trippled in size....has the number of RIDERS though????

I know at least 6 people with 3 or more bikes

True, one could counterargue that people lend out thier bikes (not me though!), or don't register em at all (no comment :bleh:).

I still doubt the root of this whole debacle is safety though, consider how many other people pass before their time, and whats being done about those various groups. And if it was safety, they wouldn't need to use shonky stats, surely?

Kiwi675

26th January 2011, 14:35

[QUOTE=bogan;1129967745]how do you know farm bike deaths are in there? Our research has shown some farm bike injuries have ogt in with road bikes, but this is due to poor data gathered at the scene, and incomplete forms, the policy is to keep them separate. I would guess that for deaths they are even less prevalent as the more serious the accident, the better the data gathered at the scene should be, but that is just my guess.

Fair point. I was under the impression that they were included but if the data collection is carried out correctly it should only be when a death occurs in a place with public access. However, two quad bike deaths in December were as a result of a farmer crashing through his fence and ending up on a road or rest area...............statistics............a wonderful thing!!

Katman

26th January 2011, 14:41

One thing we must also remember (devils advocate and something we as a community need to assess properly) is the number of multiple motorcycle owners out there

I own 3 registered motorcycles
I am the ONLY rider of all 3
The motorcycle fleet HAS Trippled in size....has the number of RIDERS though????

I know at least 6 people with 3 or more bikes

This thread here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/123650-How-many-road-bikes-do-you-currently-own shows there's a fair few of us with more than one.

Kiwi675

26th January 2011, 14:51

Number of new claims

July 2008 to June 2009

Public road – Motor Vehicle Account 4,479

Non-public road – Work Account 1,020

Non-public road – Earners’ and Non-Earners’ Accounts 4,699

All motorcycle-related claims 10,198

So over half all claims likely come from unregistered bikes. We all pay ACC levies on top of our Rego (whether Earner Levy or Work Account). The system remains inherently unfair and to claim it is the best available at the moment is just a cop-out.

StoneY

26th January 2011, 16:44

Morning Riffer,

Do you know, have you heard if individuals on the MSL group will be paid or receive any financial gain from the fund or Govt? If so how much, or is their involvement purely voluntarily out of love for the cause?

I only just caught this one Ken.
Late reply (but you could have called me to ask this one bro)

I do not get 'paid' for these meetings.
If the Government dept I am an employee of see's my time as valid use of taxpayer funds, I MAY get salary if I am lucky...somehow I doubt it will be the case.

All the Steering Group meetings I was paid a small fee for expenses, and got lunch.
The difference between my daily charge out then and my small fee for the meetings was $280.00 NZD

Now I am on salary back with a .govt.nz e-mail at work, I MIGHT get support from them in the form of getting salary pay.
Unlikely...totally different sector to ACC for me.

What councilors get:
We get our travel, and a feed.
I will lose about $210 per meeting day as it stands right now on my current earnings.

NO one is in this for the money.
NO ONE! We don't GET any

I cannot get BRONZ special treatment (in fact any BRONZ submission will be ultra scrutinized due to my role)
I cannot get a check made out to the local riding school, they too have to follow process.

bogan

26th January 2011, 16:48

Berries

26th January 2011, 20:42

Fair point. I was under the impression that they were included but if the data collection is carried out correctly it should only be when a death occurs in a place with public access. However, two quad bike deaths in December were as a result of a farmer crashing through his fence and ending up on a road or rest area...............statistics............a wonderful thing!!
Those two as described should not be in the stats. But a farmer riding up the main road on his unregistered quad bike in the rain with his hood up and turning hard right in to his paddock just as a fully laden logging truck is overtaking, that'd be there.

The NZ database is a database of crashes that occur on public roads so includes a large number of MX bikes being "tested", as well as quite a few unregistered farm bikes. The problem arises when those stats are used to counter or support ACC statements, particularly if you just use the raw data. As a for instance, over the last ten years there has been a massive shift from beef and sheep farming to dairying which involves many more trips for the farm workers, often on bikes, more than likely unregistered. Does this influence the figures that get thrown around ? I bet you it does.

scracha

26th January 2011, 21:20

I made a promise to myself and a few close friends to not let this sort of personal insult on KB get to me anymore but you calling me and my hard working executive panel Motherfuckers is pathetic.

I and the people in BRONZ Wellington, as well as those who formed the Federation, have worked TIRELESSLY to ensure the MSL was not just absorbed into ACC's general accounts, and that AA never had a chance to manage it.
Not alone there either, WIMA, Ulysses, MNZ, HOG, Scootz NZ...all were involved and COMITTED to working on behalf of persons like you.

Work you're obviously too ignorant and lazy to take on for yourself.

Morons like you do NOTHING but bleat from the safety of thier computer desk and call other people who DO make a difference names, just because we couldnt gain 100% victory over the govt?
How much do you think it would have been without BIKEOI?

No wonder Les Mason stopped coming on KB...he must have put up with dickheads like YOU for years now... in all honesty I dont blame the man for leaving this place behind

You know who really sold US out Scratcha? Lazy pricks like YOU who just bleat and bitch about the 'unfair levies' while you do NOTHING at all to make a difference

You are simply pathetic
If your so concerned we let you down, go ride a motorcycle in the UK, or Germany, or Victoria...see how much THEY pay to use a motorcycle

Points taken on board Stoney. Too easy to be a keyboard warrior and I'm blaming the wrong people. I'm man enough to say I was bang out of order. Apologies.

StoneY

26th January 2011, 21:55

Points taken on board Stoney. Too easy to be a keyboard warrior and I'm blaming the wrong people. I'm man enough to say I was bang out of order. Apologies.

Accepted mate. And sorry for my grouchy reply....just been doing loads a work on this, touchy subject ;)

Lets start again.......

We tried...we had some marginal successes as I see it
The levy is in place...next move is how we use it?

I hope me and the others tasked with that manage to do you all as much justice as we can squeeze from it

Owl

26th January 2011, 22:04

Morons like you do NOTHING but bleat from the safety of thier computer desk

It's not NOTHING, it's NOTHING MUCH!:rolleyes:

rustic101

28th January 2011, 21:52

Head in the sand or have you got a source to back up those claims?
Land Transport's 2010 Factsheet is here (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-crash-fact-sheet-2010.pdf) and it looks like the majority are average joes...

I have and I can. However do me a favor, put in an OIA to the National Manager Road Policing and ask for; all events related to motorcycle accidents, fleeing riders and deaths. Specifically ask for the licence class, cc rating of the bike etc o the reason for fleeing, and make sure you ask for the number of bikes that were stolen.

My head is not in the sand, far from it actually.

rustic101

28th January 2011, 22:08

I only just caught this one Ken.
Late reply (but you could have called me to ask this one bro)

I do not get 'paid' for these meetings.
If the Government dept I am an employee of see's my time as valid use of taxpayer funds, I MAY get salary if I am lucky...somehow I doubt it will be the case.

All the Steering Group meetings I was paid a small fee for expenses, and got lunch.
The difference between my daily charge out then and my small fee for the meetings was $280.00 NZD

Now I am on salary back with a .govt.nz e-mail at work, I MIGHT get support from them in the form of getting salary pay.
Unlikely...totally different sector to ACC for me.

What councilors get:
We get our travel, and a feed.
I will lose about $210 per meeting day as it stands right now on my current earnings.

NO one is in this for the money.
NO ONE! We don't GET any

I cannot get BRONZ special treatment (in fact any BRONZ submission will be ultra scrutinized due to my role)
I cannot get a check made out to the local riding school, they too have to follow process.

Cheers for the reply StoneY, I found the answer in another thread.

My issue is not with the money, in fact thats actually a red hearing. I'm more concerned with the over all outcome! You no doubt have read my previous posts so I'm not going to beat that to death.

If I could offer you two words of advice they would be - keep your eyes and ears open with GM and the Minister and never forget where you came from..

Still waiting for that coffee ;)

ynot slow

29th January 2011, 07:46

The bikoi on paper was a great way to voice concerns(note not using "our concerns" as this implies we all cared,some don't),but to me the govt were going to raise levies come what may and did.The only thing was how much,so the govt say we'll raise by $500 and if it's protested lower it by $50 and the plebs will be greatfull,hmmm bikoi saved us how much.

I'm not saying bikoi was a waist(no pies)of time,it got people thinking,how many ignorant owners of diesel vehicles are bleating now.No I never went on the bikoi,reason was starting a new job the Monday befor,but till then was certainly going on it.

My cynical view on msl is those who are on the panel are there in their interests for us,but also for themselves,i.e no one goes on a committee at a cost to them(sports club aside,school committees etc),i.e board members get paid,sure it may cost at present(wages lost vs renumeration gained) but further along the renumeration will make it financially viable,and the cynic in me and others spoken to agree.
And the cynics amongst us will say if another member is required the closed door boys club format will apply,much like govt embassy appointments(jobs for the boys)and afterall ACC is a govt agency.The fact the agency pays the running of msl is a mute point,the idea of only riders paying should be addressed,don't cars use roads and maybe they could do with bikers awareness courses.
I am keen to take any learning courses if available,as I believe we can all learn no matter whether it's driving,riding or in life general.

Berries

29th January 2011, 09:03

My cynical view on msl is those who are on the panel are there in their interests for us,but also for themselves,i.e no one goes on a committee at a cost to them(sports club aside,school committees etc),i.e board members get paid,sure it may cost at present(wages lost vs renumeration gained) but further along the renumeration will make it financially viable,and the cynic in me and others spoken to agree.
I'm a big cynic about most things, but I don't think you can accuse the MSL members of being it it for themselves. They all represent groups of various sizes, apart from the chair, and are in it for their members. I am sure they are of the view that they are in it for all riders as well, notwithstanding the fact that some cynics, like me, don't believe the MSL will make the slightest bit of difference to me and my riding safety and therefore think the levy is a complete crock.

FJRider

30th January 2011, 14:27

... notwithstanding the fact that some cynics, like me, don't believe the MSL will make the slightest bit of difference to me and my riding safety and therefore think the levy is a complete crock.

Depends on what measures are offered in the interest of "Motorcyclist safety" ...

Subsidized (or free) track days ... or at least a graded rider training program ( I doubt ALL of us can claim they know all there is to know ... )

GST removed from motorcycle safety gear ... (or at least import taxes)

Anybody else got any silly ideas that money could be spent on in the interest of Motorcycle safety ... ???

riffer

30th January 2011, 17:09

My cynical view on msl is those who are on the panel are there in their interests for us,but also for themselves,i.e no one goes on a committee at a cost to them(sports club aside,school committees etc),i.e board members get paid,sure it may cost at present(wages lost vs renumeration gained) but further along the renumeration will make it financially viable,and the cynic in me and others spoken to agree.

Look mate, this is getting boring.

Either supply evidence contradicting the statements made regarding remuneration, or GTFO. This debate has been done to death. No-one is getting rich off the MSL, okay?

The people who are there are GENUINELY doing it because they want to make a difference. Continuing these slanderous accusations is both making you look like a twat and detracting from the main message.

Pixie

3rd February 2011, 10:19

And so begins the rot from the uneducated. Allow me to add some sanity to the mix:

There's a number of other names there who deserve mention:

Paul Searancke, Deputy Chairperson (Commissioner: Recreation/Leisure of Motorcycling New Zealand)
Was heard to boast to a cab driver of my acquaintance that the MSL delegates had signed (ssshhh) a confidentiality agreement with the govt.(mustn't let the biking masses know what's going on)And boasted that he had Nick the Prick's private number on his cell phone
Peter McIntosh (President Ulysses Club of NZ Inc)
Wanted to exclude off road bikes from all MSL activities
Yvonne Forrest (Representative of Women's International Motorcycle Association)
Bill Grice (former Chairman of the Motor Industry Association Motorcycle Division)
Brent Hutchison (President of Wellington branch of Bikers Rights Organisation of NZ)
Jess Corbett (Representative of Scoot NZ and the NZ Classic Scooter Club)

You have a representative from MNZ, a representative from Ulysses, a representative from WIMA, a representative from the Motor Industry, a representative from BRONZ, and a representative from the Scroters.

Led by a person who has an enviable record in New Zealand business and with quite a bit of economic nous too - and who's done some pretty cool biking.

The MSF will work through the government's GETZ tendering programme - which means it's totally transparent.

We all have access to StoneY here on KB - and as a friend of mine I know how committed he is to ensuring motorcyclists are put first. Say what you like about Peter Mac but there's no arguing the organisation he represents represent a large proportion of motorcyclists.

I'm just stoked that Mike Noon wasn't allowed on the committee. I wouldn't have been happy about that.

See above....

Pixie

3rd February 2011, 10:24

WRB's are only responsible for one motorcycling fatality in this country that I'm aware of. That, and that in order to actually to hit one, a rider must already be in the shit -and that shit won't be as a result of the WRB being there. Root cause and all that.

So we'll line the roads with broken glass and used saw blades because the only way they'll hurt you is if you are already "in the shit"

+1 Mister Genius

Even the "Safer Roads" initiative disagrees with you

avgas

3rd February 2011, 10:29

Look mate, this is getting boring.

Either supply evidence contradicting the statements made regarding remuneration, or GTFO. This debate has been done to death. No-one is getting rich off the MSL, okay?

The people who are there are GENUINELY doing it because they want to make a difference. Continuing these slanderous accusations is both making you look like a twat and detracting from the main message.
I agree there is no evidence.
However I also have to agree with the concept that not everyone on that panel will being doing it out of the good of their heart.

All we can do is hope that their goals are inline with out own (or don't affect the overall outcome), and that motorcycling in NZ benefits on a whole (even if its a side effect).

While I don't think money is there for most, I imagine the possibility for some may be there. But the more likely situation is people like the respect etc that comes with the role.

.....however in saying that I am sure that we will all recall a recent presentation where 1 man decided it was a good idea to speak on "behalf of all NZ motorcyclists"......

so yeah - tough 1 really

Pixie

3rd February 2011, 10:39

Pixie

3rd February 2011, 10:57

StoneY

3rd February 2011, 11:24

I agree there is no evidence.
However I also have to agree with the concept that not everyone on that panel will being doing it out of the good of their heart.

Sorry mate...there is NOTHING in this for us beyond hard, largely thankless work that is mind numbingly boring at times. Its definitley invasive of my free time and my career with regular days off to attend meetings etc.
No pay
No glory
Loads of unfounded speclation and accusatory inuendo thats totally unfounded.
Outright abuse in some cases.

Would you all rather it had been handed over to AA like our licenses were?

Avgas mate,this aint a nasty reply to YOU, but to the concept you have agreed with in regard to our intention.

There is no one pushing any personal agenda's on this council.
All decisions must...MUST meet a majority vote, and a stringent criteria set by legislation
ACC pay the expenses
We simply agree a project has merit and allow the money to be spent as approved by the council

We aint even volunteers as such...we were asked to participate and appointed by the minister......
Where does ANYONE get the whole feeding at the trough shit from?

And around the mulberry bush we go again.........

MSTRS

3rd February 2011, 12:28

... and appointed by the minister......

You do know what happens to appointees that don't do as they're told, eh?

StoneY

3rd February 2011, 13:00

You do know what happens to appointees that don't do as they're told, eh?

In this case we are tasked to give him our honest advice, and simply to approve the projects that pass the vetting stage as per approved process....... a process BIKERs oversaw the creation of I may add!

I get where you are coming from, but I for one will NOT sell myself and my conscience will always ensure I decide on OUR side rather than being told to tow a line

I don’t believe anyone else on the council will either.

And, if I get sacked for NOT being a yes man, trust me you lot will be the first to hear about it ;)

Paul S

3rd February 2011, 14:29

Paul Searancke, Deputy Chairperson (Commissioner: Recreation/Leisure of Motorcycling New Zealand)
"Was heard to boast to a cab driver of my acquaintance that the MSL delegates had signed (ssshhh) a confidentiality agreement with the govt.(mustn't let the biking masses know what's going on)And boasted that he had Nick the Prick's private number on his cell phone"
Peter McIntosh (President Ulysses Club of NZ Inc)
"Wanted to exclude off road bikes from all MSL activities"

See above....

As much as I go around discussing personal and confidential information with cab drivers of various ethnicities who are complete strangers all the time, I would have to say that your "acquaintance" who heard me doing this must have been sharing the cab with me. I would appreciate half the cab fare (Tui- Yeah Right).
For the record; I don't have Nick Smiths private phone number in my cell phone and as far as I know no MSL Council member has signed any confidentiality agreement to date.
The Council members are not delegates they are Ministerial appointments.
The MSL was never ever for Off Road. Off Road riders don't contribute to this fund so NO money is going to be spent on Off Road from this fund, it is for road motorcycling.
I am quite happy to answer any questions I can (pm me), but please remember I work for a living and do this and other voluntary activities in my and my families spare time therefore it may take a while before I answer.

Paul Searancke

avgas

3rd February 2011, 16:17

Sorry mate...there is NOTHING in this for us beyond hard, largely thankless work that is mind numbingly boring at times. Its definitley invasive of my free time and my career with regular days off to attend meetings etc.
No pay
No glory
Loads of unfounded speclation and accusatory inuendo thats totally unfounded.
Outright abuse in some cases.

ACC pay the expenses
We simply agree a project has merit and allow the money to be spent as approved by the council

We aint even volunteers as such...we were asked to participate and appointed by the minister......
Ya bloody masochist :)
Don't worry I know why your doing it Stoney (get the ladies:yes:) and I am happy that your on board. But the others will have to put proof in the pudding before others will trust em like you.

Sadly its human character.

riffer

3rd February 2011, 17:05

See above....

Pixie - What the Fuck? You quote one of my messages and fill it full of libelous crap that makes it look like I wrote it...

You are way out of line mate.

Pull your fucking head in.

Maha

3rd February 2011, 17:29

Paul S

3rd February 2011, 18:26

''As much as I go around discussing personal and confidential information with cab drivers of various ethnicities who are complete strangers all the time, I would have to say that your "acquaintance" who heard me doing this must have been sharing the cab with me''

Perhaps He/She was driving it....:corn:

"As much as I go around discussing personal and confidential information with cab drivers of various ethnicities who are complete strangers all the time, I would have to say that your "acquaintance" who heard me doing this must have been sharing the cab with me. I would appreciate half the cab fare (Tui- Yeah Right)."

The irony in my post was wasted and I think the full paragraph reads far better. I'll try again.

It was stated by "Pixie" that I "was heard to boast to a cab driver" about specific private and confidential information. Didn't happen.
Pixie could of course repeat these comments in writing and sign his or her name to it. It would then be debated in a different forum.

Pixie

3rd February 2011, 22:09

The MSL was never ever for Off Road. Off Road riders don't contribute to this fund so NO money is going to be spent on Off Road from this fund, it is for road motorcycling.
I am quite happy to answer any questions I can (pm me), but please remember I work for a living and do this and other voluntary activities in my and my families spare time therefore it may take a while before I answer.

Paul Searancke

So seeing as car drivers do not contribute to the fund,I guess we will be assured we won't be seeing any of the fund spent on educating car drivers?

Seems a shame seeing as they kill a few of us every year.

I will be keeping a close watch that this is the case,but I suspect this is just the bullshit flowing deep.

I've heard reports that the exclusion of the off roaders was quite a bone of contention,with many of the representatives from diverse groups supporting their inclusion.It seems to me the Commissioner: Recreation/Leisure of Motorcycling New Zealand should be supporting them too.wtf?

Paul S; I am awaiting confirmation that I haven't confused you with someone else and if I have,I will apologize.

Riffer; I did not intend to make your quote look like you made the comments added in red.
I thought it was quite obvious the red bits were my comments,but then I'm a pixie and therefore a genius.

I've had confirmation just now.

I am not bullshitting and there was no confusion.My two sources one of which I have known for over 50 years and the other I trust absolutely,were correct .It seems the MSL cabal contains at least one MAJOR Bovine excrement specialist and some of the other members,at very least,so far have failed to detect this.

Just remember folks: when you open your mouth and show that you are a twat,sometime,somewhere those unwise comments you used to boost your ego will probably come back to bite you in the arse.

Be aware the hills have eyes.

and the cornfields have ears.

Shadows

3rd February 2011, 23:09

So we'll line the roads with broken glass and used saw blades because the only way they'll hurt you is if you are already "in the shit"

+1 Mister Genius

They already are lined with broken glass and used saw blades.

Fuck yes, let's waste a shit load of money and time on a single issue to placate somebody with an axe to grind, and do nothing to eliminate the root causes which result in people sliding down the road towards WRB's, or anything else for that matter, in the first place. Fuck if it isn't a WRB it'll most likely be something else, so let's also remove all of the lamp posts, road signs, trees, post and batten fences, buildings, armco, gutters, sheep, and while we're at it, all of the oncoming traffic just in case somebody on a motorcycle strays into the opposing lane. And the road, don't forget the road. It's really hard and it fucking hurts when you hit it.

I don't like WRB's either but focusing on them is a waste of time when the country could simply invest in more ambulances.

Of course I'm wasting my time trying to reason with somebody who's best argument seems to be little more than a cheap shot at my intelligence.

StoneY

4th February 2011, 06:59

Ya bloody masochist :)
Don't worry I know why your doing it Stoney (get the ladies:yes:)

Masochist, yep! I keep comin back to Kiwibiker thats proof of that factor...but what ladies mate? LOL
My Missus might not agree there hehehe she picked me long before I was an ACC Advisor of any capacity lol.

Spearfish

4th February 2011, 07:21

Most people in NZ would say "someone should do something about that" and rant behind the protection of talk-back radio or here but as soon as something is asked of them they go quiet, stare at the ground and shift their weight from one foot to the other until they can slide away.

Stoney didn't, even though he would have known the suspicion and shyt that was going to to form let alone the complexity of what they are assembled to do.

All I can say to Stoney and any others here for the work your doing is a simple, thanks......
........from the protection of this site and talk-back.:facepalm:

StoneY

4th February 2011, 07:28

So seeing as car drivers do not contribute to the fund,I guess we will be assured we won't be seeing any of the fund spent on educating car drivers?

Not that we know of, there has been NOTHING discussed yet in terms of WHAT it gets spent on - GETS tenders are yet to even be recieved for gods sake

Seems a shame seeing as they kill a few of us every year.

Bang another drum this ones getting over used and the skins worn thin.

I will be keeping a close watch that this is the case,but I suspect this is just the bullshit flowing deep.

Your obviously an expert on Bullshit, which is shown in the way you twisted Riffers post when quoting him

I've heard reports that the exclusion of the off roaders was quite a bone of contention,with many of the representatives from diverse groups supporting their inclusion.It seems to me the Commissioner: Recreation/Leisure of Motorcycling New Zealand should be supporting them too.wtf?
Its a ROAD motorcyclists fund FFS Paul never once tried to include off roaders and there has been NO debate on the issue at all

Whoever you got this 'report' from is full of shit
I have been present at EVERY meeting so far, that ugly topic never once was discussed
Paul's group MNZ with over 20,000 members, many of whom ride road motorcycles as well......

Paul S; I am awaiting confirmation that I haven't confused you with someone else and if I have,I will apologize.

Riffer; I did not intend to make your quote look like you made the comments added in red.
I thought it was quite obvious the red bits were my comments,but then I'm a pixie and therefore a genius.

I've had confirmation just now.

I am not bullshitting and there was no confusion.My two sources one of which I have known for over 50 years and the other I trust absolutely,were correct .It seems the MSL cabal contains at least one MAJOR Bovine excrement specialist and some of the other members,at very least,so far have failed to detect this.

Name your source, a REAL name then. It had better be someone present at the meetings.
This is pure speculation and libelous slander based on hearsay and lacking any facts.
I know every person who has attended these meetings, as I have been at every single one of them
Names, or STFU

Just remember folks: when you open your mouth and show that you are a twat,sometime,somewhere those unwise comments you used to boost your ego will probably come back to bite you in the arse.

Be aware the hills have eyes.

and the cornfields have ears.

And what does this load of conspiracy theorist tripe make YOU look like?
Name your source and who the aleged bovine specialist is meant to be.
You say 'reports' of this have been made to YOU?
What reports, what organisation, dates and times of these incidents...back your statements up with real names

We on the council have NOT got the anonymity of a webforum such as Kiwibiker to hide behind.
It's real easy for misinformed idiots on KB to make grand statements of 'reports' of this and that
Who made your 'report' to you? Certainly not anyone who was on the steering comittee or in the final selection of the council

Your slanderous bullshit in this thread is exactly that, BULLSHIT based on nothing but hearsay someone you claim to have known for 50+ years, and another person 'you trust'

I have been at these meetings and can refute all you have said to be utter shit
Paul is a bloody good bloke, he works in the industry - he drives classic Chevy's - he RIDES on the road like we do

Nothing you have claimed has ever happened in MY presence, and I have not missed a single meeting of either the steering group or the Council as yet.

EDIT: I see in your friends list a very good clue as to where you get this information from - here we go again another long and windy garden path of inuendo and speculation based on imaginary conspiracies.

I have also heard (direct from those present at the discussions you have refferred to) that your so called information in regards certain off road groups being included in MSL issue's was the Federation of Motorcycle Clubs meeting, absolutely nothing to do with MSL issue's AT ALL!

Pixie

4th February 2011, 10:53

They already are lined with broken glass and used saw blades.

Fuck yes, let's waste a shit load of money and time on a single issue to placate somebody with an axe to grind, and do nothing to eliminate the root causes which result in people sliding down the road towards WRB's, or anything else for that matter, in the first place. Fuck if it isn't a WRB it'll most likely be something else, so let's also remove all of the lamp posts, road signs, trees, post and batten fences, buildings, armco, gutters, sheep, and while we're at it, all of the oncoming traffic just in case somebody on a motorcycle strays into the opposing lane. And the road, don't forget the road. It's really hard and it fucking hurts when you hit it.

I don't like WRB's either but focusing on them is a waste of time when the country could simply invest in more ambulances.

Of course I'm wasting my time trying to reason with somebody who's best argument seems to be little more than a cheap shot at my intelligence.

Your not wasting you time at all.

I would just rather not be exposed to something that might rip my leg off,than be assured there will be an ambulance to carry my legless body to a hospital or a morgue

Pixie

4th February 2011, 10:56

Not that we know of, there has been NOTHING discussed yet in terms of WHAT it gets spent on - GETS tenders are yet to even be recieved for gods sake

Bang another drum this ones getting over used and the skins worn thin.

Your obviously an expert on Bullshit, which is shown in the way you twisted Riffers post when quoting him

Its a ROAD motorcyclists fund FFS Paul never once tried to include off roaders and there has been NO debate on the issue at all

Whoever you got this 'report' from is full of shit
I have been present at EVERY meeting so far, that ugly topic never once was discussed
Paul's group MNZ with over 20,000 members, many of whom ride road motorcycles as well......

Name your source, a REAL name then. It had better be someone present at the meetings.
This is pure speculation and libelous slander based on hearsay and lacking any facts.
I know every person who has attended these meetings, as I have been at every single one of them
Names, or STFU

And what does this load of conspiracy theorist tripe make YOU look like?
Name your source and who the aleged bovine specialist is meant to be.
You say 'reports' of this have been made to YOU?
What reports, what organisation, dates and times of these incidents...back your statements up with real names

We on the council have NOT got the anonymity of a webforum such as Kiwibiker to hide behind.
It's real easy for misinformed idiots on KB to make grand statements of 'reports' of this and that
Who made your 'report' to you? Certainly not anyone who was on the steering comittee or in the final selection of the council

Your slanderous bullshit in this thread is exactly that, BULLSHIT based on nothing but hearsay someone you claim to have known for 50+ years, and another person 'you trust'

I have been at these meetings and can refute all you have said to be utter shit
Paul is a bloody good bloke, he works in the industry - he drives classic Chevy's - he RIDES on the road like we do

Nothing you have claimed has ever happened in MY presence, and I have not missed a single meeting of either the steering group or the Council as yet.

EDIT: I see in your friends list a very good clue as to where you get this information from - here we go again another long and windy garden path of inuendo and speculation based on imaginary conspiracies.

I have also heard (direct from those present at the discussions you have refferred to) that your so called information in regards certain off road groups being included in MSL issue's was the Federation of Motorcycle Clubs meeting, absolutely nothing to do with MSL issue's AT ALL!

There is nothing to be achieved arguing the point with people who conveniently forget what they have said.

I don't care where or when these statements have been made - it is merely an indicator of the calibre of the people who made them.

I'll leave my last statement on this subject to a paraphrase of a Billy Wigglestick (1564 - 1616 ) quote:

"They doth protest too much, methinks"

StoneY

4th February 2011, 11:43

There is nothing to be achieved arguing the point with people who conveniently forget what they have said.

No, theres no point coming in here stating your crap as 'facts' when you have got:

A: The wrong meeting, of the wrong orgnisation (and even then only chinese whispers heard from a 'trusted mate')
B: Nothing to back it up with but hearsay and allegations you cannot provide any evidence of except 'my mate said....'
C: No understanding of the LEGISLATION that states what MSL can/cannot be used for, and thats to REDUCE ROAD INJURIES

Next time you want to make such a fubar, place your real full name in the post so the lawyers have no confusion over who they need to summon to the libel and slander hearing

I state with utter confidence, as I have just spoken with no less than 3 persons present at the discusion you have been reffering to, this has NOTHING to do with MSL council or steering group - it was a discussion held at a 'meeting of a group of clubs' and has no sway at all on MSL issue's

riffer

4th February 2011, 13:58

You know what, it's getting a little tiring rebutting outright lies and misinformation from uninformed idiots on this forum.

Unless anyone has anything they are willing to stand up and restate in a court of law, I would suggest they all fuck off and let people actually do something to help motorcyclists.

I'm getting totally sick of whining little fucks who think they know what's going on. All they serve to do is stir up shit.

Typical fucking New Zealanders. So busy knocking people that they forget that good things are supposed to be done. No wonder we have such a fucked-up country.

caseye

4th February 2011, 14:01

Take a breath Rif!
Well said though and Oh so true!

Shadows

6th February 2011, 21:08

I would just rather not be exposed to something that might rip my leg off,than be assured there will be an ambulance to carry my legless body to a hospital or a morgue

I was not actually suggesting that the country should buy more ambulances.

Never mind.

avgas

6th February 2011, 22:04

Masochist, yep! I keep comin back to Kiwibiker thats proof of that factor...but what ladies mate? LOL
My Missus might not agree there hehehe she picked me long before I was an ACC Advisor of any capacity lol.
Do rockstars have wives?
What goes on tour.....

slothracer

6th February 2011, 22:46

StoneY

7th February 2011, 06:49

i hope there going to invest it into people in cars learning to watch out for motorbikes that would be the start. ive been the victim of a car 4 years ago lucky to still be here. My old bike's probably has been reincarnated as a beer can though:facepalm:

I am going to say this ONE more time

Its a MOTORCYCLISTS safety fund
It ONLY 2.75 million

WE are going to spend it on US
There is not enough cash to start re-educating every useless cager in NZ ffs
Im getting tired of explaining this in kindergarten terms to adults, give the bloody thing a year to get established and working

And again for those either too fucking stupid or pathetically anti MSL to undertsand simple english

WE DO NOT GET PAID to attend - we are volunteers (well we have been appointed but we are still unpaid volunteers)

EXPENSES including TRAVEL/ACCOM or any meeting created expense comes from ACC's operational fund

This fund is purely for the use of those that PAY INTO IT which is ROAD REGISTERED motorcyclists, not farmers, not MX clubs, not Race clubs...just us who register our bikes and pay into the fund

Clear enough?
I and others have said it often enough after all, at least 7 times in this thread alone for gods sake