MSL Council to be lead by Gareth Morgan

[StoneY]

MSL Council named

Gareth Morgan Chair, Paul Searancke from MNZ Deputy Chair
Article below, press release from Nick Smith attached

As you all know, some of us are still angry about the levy hikes, I honestly believe we can make a difference with this fund and its use when managed correctly
Gareth Morgan is a very smart man, I was chatting with him in Nicks office this morning, and I am looking forward to helping make a difference

This council is made up entirely of Motorcyclists
ALL members ride regular, one owns a popular motorcycle dealership
We are tasked to basically be the watchdog of this fund, and ensure it is spent on US!

Peace
Brent
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4565955/Morgan-heads-ACC-funded-bike-group

229589

[Bald Eagle]

:niceone: Must almost be heresy, a motorcycle fund administered by actual motorcyclists.

2011 is going to a better year for us all.

[avgas]

Good stuff Brent. (pat yourself on the back for me)
No doubt you have seen my other rant in the other thread. So I won't go into that here.

However track open days would be my pick, especially if its raining.
Get people to fall off in a safe(r) environment and learn from other riders on a causal day.

[Murray]

They could spread the money over the 100,000 motorcycles and we could all have a reduction in levys of $20 each. Sounds a plan to me!

[blackdog]

They could spread the money over the 100,000 motorcycles and we could all have a reduction in levys of $200 each. Sounds a plan to me!

best get yer calculator out again :rofl:

[Murray]

best get yer calculator out again :rofl:

Bloody abacus bead slipped over. Still don't think it will make much difference and doubt people will be queing up to go on safety programmes!

[blackdog]

doubt people will be queueing up to go on safety programmes!

i disagree

almost everyone i know who rides will take advantage of every opportunity available to improve their riding skills

besides, another excuse to go riding? sounds good to me

give it a try, you might just learn something

[JimO]

i heard on the wireless 4ok news that motorcyclists pay a $30 acc levy ........i wish

[StoneY]

i heard on the wireless 4ok news that motorcyclists pay a $30 acc levy ........i wish

The wireless got it wrong
We pay a 460$ ACC levy on bikes over 601cc
We pay a 30$ Motorcycle Safety Levy, to be precise

Its the only 30 bucks in that huge invoice I can say that I believe will be well used ;)

[James Deuce]

Bloody abacus bead slipped over. Still don't think it will make much difference and doubt people will be queing up to go on safety programmes!

I'm with that blackstig guy. Hutt City Council ran a couple of training days some 5 or 6 years ago and it was huge fun. Met new people, brushed up some skills , did some formation riding at the Police College. Got to go for a ride. Had the perfect excuse for a pass too. "I'm off for some training!"

I was surprised at how well patronised both days were and sucking info about riding and enjoying it even in the worst circumstances from riders with different skills and perspectives is always worth it.

The success of these programmes will depend upon people, even grumpy cynical people like your fine self turning up and stunning doubting Thomas politicians that we will avail ourselves of these sort of opportunities if they are presented, in numbers that will make them feel like they've been kicked in the balls.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that ANY training scheme presented via the ACC funded route needs to be so over-subscribed that the "The Government" can be left in no doubt that there is a giant hole in motorcycle training in this country and that their attitude towards us and commonly held beliefs about motorcyclists in general evaporate in the face of a tsunami of interest in improving skills and understanding motorcycle dynamics.

That would be the very best outcome from the farce that Nick Smith et al foisted upon us a little more than a year ago.

[Ocean1]

The success of these programmes will depend upon...

Doubt anyone would consider high participation rates as success.

Be interested in what training might be considered appropriate. Bunch of XR200s on a greasy track might be good bang for yer buck in teaching slow speed skills and reactions. Would mean less falling down type stuff but it won't stop much of the higher speed incidents.

Don't think there's any way to teach high speed skills in a manner that'd be considered safe by anyone likely to be holding the purse strings. What's more policy says it's not the lack of skills that's causing that, it's the speed itself so they're hardly likely to consdone training in that area.

I've made suggestions about old bastards actually teaching roadcraft before now but it seems most of 'em would rather wait for the crashes and then blame the crashee.

[Latte]

$2 Million dollar fund, 100,000 Motorcycles paying license/rego (from post above) at $30...... $1 million dollars admin fee?

[tri boy]

So, if the death toll of M/cyclists drop by, oh, say 35% over the next two-three years, wil Dr Smith reduce the ACC levy out of good faith, n positive enforcement initiatives?
I'll wait and see.

[PrincessBandit]

So, if the death toll of M/cyclists drop by, oh, say 35% over the next two-three years, wil Dr Smith reduce the ACC levy out of good faith, n positive enforcement initiatives?
I'll wait and see.

Awesome to see the item on the news just now. Will look forward to seeing how it all works. Optimism to the fore...both on the initiative, and motorcyclists eliminating the "one motorcyclist a week dies on our roads" story.

[Ocean1]

motorcyclists eliminating the "one motorcyclist a week dies on our roads" story.

Yeah. The back room boys have been busy again I see.

They must think we're all fucking morons that can't work out how small a problem that is. Or who's problem it is.

And they're largely right.



Arseholes.

[supa.m]

Yeah. The back room boys have been busy again I see.

They must think we're all fucking morons that can't work out how small a problem that is. Or who's problem it is.

And they're largely right.



Arseholes.

The three types of lies....Lies, Damn lies and Statistics!!! In this case its just a case of who the *hole is.... is it the idiot Media editor? the desperate justification of a politician? my money is on both......

[James Deuce]

Doubt anyone would consider high participation rates as success.

Be interested in what training might be considered appropriate. Bunch of XR200s on a greasy track might be good bang for yer buck in teaching slow speed skills and reactions. Would mean less falling down type stuff but it won't stop much of the higher speed incidents.

Don't think there's any way to teach high speed skills in a manner that'd be considered safe by anyone likely to be holding the purse strings. What's more policy says it's not the lack of skills that's causing that, it's the speed itself so they're hardly likely to consdone training in that area.

I've made suggestions about old bastards actually teaching roadcraft before now but it seems most of 'em would rather wait for the crashes and then blame the crashee.

I understand and acknowledge all of your points, however high participation rates WILL have them scratching their heads as they've "profiled" motorcyclists as likely to belong a highly individualistic personality type and therefore unlikely to participate in training schemes due to what amounts to a personality disorder.

I think they've miscalculated there as most motorcyclists I know are highly social animals with a thirst for knowledge rather than bullshit. Just collecting motorcyclists together results in information transfer and a sound thrashing of some commonly held beliefs such as people deliberately "laying" bikes down and using the front brake is to be avoided.

The courses I talked about earlier were run by Police motorcycle cops and those guys were pragmatists when it came to skills and skill application. They discussed techniques for braking from high speed, cornering at high speed and appropriate times and places for applying that knowledge.

[Kickaha]

So, if the death toll of M/cyclists drop by, oh, say 35% over the next two-three years, will Dr Smith reduce the ACC levy out of good faith,

:laugh::killingme:lol: fuck you're a funny man

[Ocean1]

I understand and acknowledge all of your points, however high participation rates WILL have them scratching their heads as they've "profiled" motorcyclists as likely to belong a highly individualistic personality type and therefore unlikely to participate in training schemes due to what amounts to a personality disorder.

I think they've miscalculated there as most motorcyclists I know are highly social animals with a thirst for knowledge rather than bullshit. Just collecting motorcyclists together results in information transfer and a sound thrashing of some commonly held beliefs such as people deliberately "laying" bikes down and using the front brake is to be.

Dude. Them’s politicians. Being wrong is not only perfectly normal it’s no impediment to committing further wrongness. Certainly no reason to go about admitting they’re wrong for gods sake.


The courses I talked about earlier were run by Police motorcycle cops and those guys were pragmatists when it came to skills and skill application. They discussed techniques for braking from high speed, cornering at high speed and appropriate times and places for applying that knowledge.

Interesting to note that their riding safety culture is quite different to that of more accessible ones. Guess that’s a telling point, their lore is isolated because it’s not communicated and because of the ill will caused by the monosyllabic enforcement policy it’s not trusted.

[Berries]

I understand and acknowledge all of your points, however high participation rates WILL have them scratching their heads as they've "profiled" motorcyclists as likely to belong a highly individualistic personality type and therefore unlikely to participate in training schemes due to what amounts to a personality disorder.
Profiled me quite well then, and the majority of riders I know. I can't see high participation rates myself unless they make it compulsory.

[Movistar]

At the end of the day you're not going to get every motorcyclist along to a training day, no matter how good the training course is, or who is running it.

I have been to a number of different training days/courses run by various organisations and clubs, and you seem to always get at least (usually only) one clown attending.

That's the nature of the beast.

Even if training becomes compulsory, it is not going to benefit everyone. Especially if that one is the clown.

Look, anything is better than nothing, and as with many things in life, it's the minority that screw it up for the majority.

I only hope that this funding makes it down to the regional level where approved training days are well run, with relevent content and are well attended.

[supa.m]

I understand and acknowledge all of your points, however high participation rates WILL have them scratching their heads as they've "profiled" motorcyclists as likely to belong a highly individualistic personality type and therefore unlikely to participate in training schemes due to what amounts to a personality disorder.

I think they've miscalculated there as most motorcyclists I know are highly social animals with a thirst for knowledge rather than bullshit. Just collecting motorcyclists together results in information transfer and a sound thrashing of some commonly held beliefs such as people deliberately "laying" bikes down and using the front brake is to be avoided.

The courses I talked about earlier were run by Police motorcycle cops and those guys were pragmatists when it came to skills and skill application. They discussed techniques for braking from high speed, cornering at high speed and appropriate times and places for applying that knowledge.

Come on ...... only those that have a brain, back bone and a bank roll are motorcyclists, there are others who ride bikes of course. The problem is that the 'others' will likely not attend these safety things..... the motorcyclists who you refer to as having a thirst for knowledge will get that knowledge because they know its good for them!!!! Anything that makes it easier I support but lets not kid ourselves ..... the 'others' are always going to be there!

[blackdog]

Come on ...... only those that have a brain, back bone and a bank roll are motorcyclists, there are others who ride bikes of course. The problem is that the 'others' will likely not attend these safety things..... the motorcyclists who you refer to as having a thirst for knowledge will get that knowledge because they know its good for them!!!! Anything that makes it easier I support but lets not kid ourselves ..... the 'others' are always going to be there!

In that case, to the best of our ability, it is up to us to encourage the 'others' to become 'motorcyclists'.

Yes, i agree there is always a percentage, but as responsible road users it is up to us to set an example.

If you can positively influence just one young'n, then that is a step in the right direction.

Your circle may be more influential than you think.

Stand up man!

[p.dath]

My guess is that the $2m is for the running of the council, not for any council activities. $2m doesn't go far once you have half a dozen staff, buildings, vehicles, and other ongoing costs.

I wrote to the minister of ACC asking for the procedure to apply for funding from the $30m ring fenced fund, and was told that a motorcycle safety council was being appointed to administer the payments from the fund.

Response from the minister attached.

[caseye]

Phil for Crying out loud, read what has been said, time and time again.
All operating expenses are to come form the ACC general fund the ring fenced money is ONLY to be spent on ACTUAL safety programmes/activities.
Those programmes/activities to be determined by the newly appointed MLC.All of whom are motorcyclists.
I hate what has happened re ACC I like many thousands rode against it.
I still believe that the only way is to go back to a one for all system.
Having said that, I can see from those named that no one on the MLC is going to give that money to anyone who wants to erect billboards or do tv Adds, it will get spent on the foot soldiers the riders, of that I am sure.

[Smifffy]

They need Racefactory on the council! :first:

[Big Dave]

They need Racefactory on the council! :first:

Miloking would add flavour too.

[Murray]

In that case, to the best of our ability, it is up to us to encourage the 'others' to become 'motorcyclists'.
Yes, i agree there is always a percentage, but as responsible road users it is up to us to set an example.
If you can positively influence just one young'n, then that is a step in the right direction.
Your circle may be more influential than you think.
Stand up man!

I agree with everything you say but would not limit it to the "young'n' group alone". We are all aware of the number of "born a gain" bikers and I see many of them as the one's who will not attend a training course due to the "I've been driving for X years and no-one needs to tell me how to ride attitude". Of all the group rides I have been on in most cases it is these riders that push the boundries the most.

I am hoping the schemes will be fully subsidised and not another $ I have to spend on motorcycling. It's already taking its financial toll and damned if I am going to pay any more than I have to. If it is, then certainly I will be setting up calander events for the 20-30 riders I regularly ride with, in the Waikato, to attend as a group and get the most of what we are already paying for.

And Caseye you will need to be re-trained anyway after the little amount of riding you have done lately. Whens the bike back on the road?.

[caseye]

I agree with everything you say but would not limit it to the "young'n' group alone". We are all aware of the number of "born a gain" bikers and I see many of them as the one's who will not attend a training course due to the "I've been driving for X years and no-one needs to tell me how to ride attitude". Of all the group rides I have been on in most cases it is these riders that push the boundries the most.

I am hoping the schemes will be fully subsidised and not another $ I have to spend on motorcycling. It's already taking its financial toll and damned if I am going to pay any more than I have to. If it is, then certainly I will be setting up calander events for the 20-30 riders I regularly ride with, in the Waikato, to attend as a group and get the most of what we are already paying for.

And Caseye you will need to be re-trained anyway after the little amount of riding you have done lately. Whens the bike back on the road?.

Bum! I've been riding the 400 quite regularly, thank you very much! LOL.
Way to go Murray, take the LOR's and make it happen for them, about your observations, i concur, but hope that if it's there to be had that thney should go along and make a go of it, why not.
I even attended the SATNR on Thursday night only to find that the young fellas had blasted off early!@#$% ArgHHH not gunna let that Zen or Yen fella forget this one for a while.
\

[NOD]

I will be probably be shoot down in flames :devil2: but they should start taking unrego bikes and cow cockies figures of the total then start from there. (1) the farmers should have insurance and (2) unrego bikes pay nothing and give every thing. Guess WHAT I am unrego rider but happy to use private insurance if i get messed up. :bleh:

[Highlander]

...

almost everyone i know who rides will take advantage of every opportunity available to improve their riding skills...



...However track open days would be my pick, especially if its raining.
Get people to fall off in a safe(r) environment and learn from other riders on a causal day.


I'm keen to be taught a better way / some of the finer points.
I have attended 3 Rider Training ("Track") days. I go with the learning aspect in mind and try following the advice / tips of the instructors, doing things that are new to me. ALWAYS and without fail there are those attending these that treat it like a race practice day. Every time I have been underpassed (passed on the inside) as I'm tipping into a corner. Freaks me out every time. The last one put me off track days. I would rather pay and spend time one on one with a riding instructor than attend another day like this. On that basis I could not recommend a Track Training day to anyone again ( as I have in the past).

I can see track days could be a part of the answer, and if ACC are through this Motorcycle Safety Council throwing money at them great. But for me unless they can change the culture of the track day I would rather they subsidise the cost of personalised time with an instructor.

[p.dath]

Phil for Crying out loud, read what has been said, time and time again.
All operating expenses are to come form the ACC general fund the ring fenced money is ONLY to be spent on ACTUAL safety programmes/activities.

I don't think I mentioned where the $2m was coming from, just what I thought it was going to be used for.


Those programmes/activities to be determined by the newly appointed MLC.All of whom are motorcyclists.

And that was exactly what I said I thought was going to happen, and then I attached a letter from the minister of ACC confirming that.


I think we are actually on the same page ... :)

[StoneY]

My guess is that the $2m is for the running of the council, not for any council activities. $2m doesn't go far once you have half a dozen staff, buildings, vehicles, and other ongoing costs.

Wrong guess

Currently 2.75 Million estimated (would have been 3.2 mil but too many bikes went on hold when levies rose)
ALL running costs, right down to the little sandwiches at the meetings come from ACC's operational budget NOT from our MSL


I wrote to the minister of ACC asking for the procedure to apply for funding from the $30m ring fenced fund, and was told that a motorcycle safety council was being appointed to administer the payments from the fund.


Yes and I am on that council officially as of Friday

The process to make a submission is still being ironed out but heres the basics for everyone, I will try keep it short, ok?

Those on the MSL council, while being from various orgs like MNZ and Ulysees, BRONZ, WIMA are Ministerial Appointee's
If I quit, my role does not automatically get passed to someone else in BRONZ, the minister will choose a suitable replacement

Gareth Morgan as Chair was a demand of the steering committee - we refused to allow AA to run it, and Nick Smith HAS been listening to us and has assured us he will continue to listen

In his office on Friday he made several commitments to us and one was to listen if we have advise.
His own words were "I would be a fool to create a council of your caliber then fail to listen to your advice"

We do not get PAID to be on this council, in fact I sacrifice about 280$ of income to attend meetings.

Progress will be measured on successes and these successes are:
Reduction in accidents at known Motorcycle Black Spots
Overall reduction in Motorcycle injuries
Reduction in Motorcycle deaths

AND we have a solid promise from Nick, reduce accidents by a noticeable factor (say 20%ish) and the Levy's will be reduced. FACT, promise made to the Safety Council, and on record!

The way this is MEANT to work is like this fictional example I am going to make here:

Example 1
Bob has to travel 200kms from Gore to attend Rider training. There is no schools in Gore (fictional example remember)

Bob makes a submission to ACC to get MSL funding to pay for a motorcycle Instructors School to open in Gore.
He makes a business case for it, and indicates the crashes around Gore are xx% more frequent than in Dunedin
The council approve this idea and heavilly subsidize a suitable training providor to host courses in Gore to save Gore riders the 200km journey to attend training sessions
Over the next 2 years crashes in Gore reduce to being no worse than in Dunedin
MSL worked for Bob and the other learner riders in Gore

Example 2
Ed wants to reduce the lichen moss on popular motorcycle roads like Wainui coast road
He needs a ute, and some form of hot steam delivery system to kill the moss, and funding to pay for his time and energy to do this task
He compiles a business case, and submits his submission
ACC Secretariat evaluates his submission, sends it back for more detail and (for example) asks him to include pricing for doing other regions roads well known for the 'green carpet' on popular Motorcycle routes, and how frequently he might need to re-visit these roads over, say 3 years?

Ed re-submits his case after some further research.
The Safety council see real merit in Ed's case, and approve the funding, for say 2 years after which we expect the local road authorities to take over the ongoing contractual fee's for Ed's new business.

Ed gets to set up his small business, which helps keep us safer on mossy roads.
YOUR MSL fee working FOR you!

Fictional remember folks (but I really like my 2nd example someone should run with it!)

Now as to us council members responsibilities:
We cannot make any submissions, it would be a direct conflict of interest

We cannot be a part of any organisation that has commercial gains to be made from any MSL funding, again a direct conflict of interest

Our role is to advise the Minister and ACC on 'likely success' of proposed projects, and help prioritise what the MSL gets spent on
ACC have the final say on funding but as Nick said, we the council members will be the ones to tick the 'approved' box on submissions, and so far they have listened to us during the establishment process.

We get 2 years as a member on the council and no guarantee we will be kept for another two years.

I hope this clears up many of the misunderstandings for some of us?
I saw Anne on Breakfast this morning and realised how woefully un-informed many people are regarding WHAT MSL is and how it works.

There is no trough, no fat checkbook, and no free ride for those participating just a lot of hard work and number crunching, with one goal as the outcome:

REDUCE THE LEVY's


And at least its being overseen by bikers, we the council are YOUR watchdog, insuring this money is spent ONLY on us!

[caseye]

Well, thats plain enough.Cheers Stoney.
My personal opinion of the MSL is that it should never have needed to exist.
But here it is and I have to say while I totally oppose the Increase in ACC levys, the establishment of the MSL or any other form of placebo for motorcyclists while they are being openly ripped off and most definitely encouraged to give up their motorcycles because of the burgeoning costs involved.
That if we have to have anyone on that council at least it's members are no nonsense motorcyclists and Thank God for making sure that you guys said No to Peter Noon of the AA.
Make it work from that end Stoney, we'll keep hammering them from ours.

[RiderInBlack]

In his office on Friday he made several commitments to us and one was to listen if we have advise.
His own words were "I would be a fool to create a council of your caliber then fail to listen to your advice"
......
AND we have a solid promise from Nick, reduce accidents by a noticeable factor (say 20%ish) and the Levy's will be reduced. FACT, promise made to the Safety Council, and on record!I hope you are not silly enough to believe any Politician is going to hold to their Promises. I will just have to wait and see, but I bet that the ACC Levy will not go down as long as Tricky Nicky has anything to do with it. He's known for spinning Stats to suit himself and now has the MSL buying into it. I wonder if MSL "Advised" him the WRB should be made more safe for motorcycles or replaced with barriers that are, whether he would do anything more than "Listen". I bet not.
In saying this, I do hope the MSL does bring about positive changes for all Motorcyclist and doesn't just become the Government's Whipping boys selling Us the Government's lines.

[StoneY]

I I do hope the MSL does bring about positive changes for all Motorcyclist and doesn't just become the Government's Whipping boys selling Us the Government's lines.


Well I tell you now my friend I am no ones whipping boy, and nor is any of the other appointee's.

There are no roll over yes men in this council.
None.

[riffer]

I wonder if MSL "Advised" him the WRB should be made more safe for motorcycles or replaced with barriers that are, whether he would do anything more than "Listen". I bet not.


You know Doug, I've only heard of one death attributed to WRB's. And it could be argued that rider's actions were a big contributor to why he hit them.

While I hate the feckin things I'm not sure if the MSL money should go towards the elimination of WRBs. It would soak up a huge amount of money doing that, although perhaps given that it's so big an amount it may be worth pushing MSL to lobby Transit. You never know - it could work. Time will tell how much MSL can advocate for reallocation of Transit funds.

[StoneY]

While I hate the feckin things I'm not sure if the MSL money should go towards the elimination of WRBs.

It could be used to modify the most exposed lengths of WRB though.....relatively cheaply


It would soak up a huge amount of money doing that,
Maybe replacing yes...but maybe not just suitable modification, eg the catch net and inflatable post buffers in some European countries.........


although perhaps given that it's so big an amount it may be worth pushing MSL to lobby Transit. You never know - it could work. Time will tell how much MSL can advocate for reallocation of Transit funds.

Well....... there is no reason MSL can't pay for the research to prove this is a move worth lobbying for, and we already have plenty of PHD's in our mailing lists after all ...
;)

Its what WE do with this that counts.

[White trash]

There is no trough, no fat checkbook, and no free ride for those participating just a lot of hard work and number crunching, with one goal as the outcome:

REDUCE THE LEVY's

While this is admirable, I'd prefer to see a decrease in the number of motorcycle fatalitys personally.

[RiderInBlack]

Well I tell you now my friend I am no ones whipping boy, and nor is any of the other appointee's.

There are no roll over yes men in this council.
None.I really hope that is so, but I know just how slippery Pollies can be. Be very wary dealing with them, because if they are any good at being a Pollie, they will steal the Lolly-pop from ya Child, and make ya believe it was ya child's fault.

[RiderInBlack]

While I hate the feckin things I'm not sure if the MSL money should go towards the elimination of WRBs. It would soak up a huge amount of money doing that, although perhaps given that it's so big an amount it may be worth pushing MSL to lobby Transit. You never know - it could work. Time will tell how much MSL can advocate for reallocation of Transit funds.
Did you not read what I had written or did you misunderstand what I had written?

I wonder if MSL "Advised" him the WRB should be made more safe for motorcycles or replaced with barriers that are, whether he would do anything more than "Listen". I bet not.
Where in there do I suggest that MSL funds be used the make the WRB safer for Motorcycles? What I had suggested that MSL takes Smith at his "Word" that he would "Listen" to their "Advise" and advise him that WRB need to be made safer.
By the way, how many "Deaths" do you need before you accept something as not doing the job it was intend to do, or the a "Safety Barrier" is unsafe?

[Katman]

By the way, how many "Deaths" do you need before you accept something as not doing the job it was intend to do, or the a "Safety Barrier" is unsafe?

If someone is stupid enough to play with a loaded gun and it goes off while they're pointing it at their head, is that the fault of the gun?

[RiderInBlack]

If someone is stupid enough to play with a loaded gun and it goes off while they're pointing it at their head, is that the fault of the gun?Not, but I would blame the person callas enough to point a gun at someone else's head & it goes off. I would also object strongly to someone else pointing a gun to my head, without it going off. This is IMHO, exactly what they have done when the put a WRB in the middle of the road with no buffer zone.

[Katman]

Not, but I would blame the person callas enough to point a gun at someone else's head & it goes off. I would also object strongly to someone else pointing a gun to my head, without it going off. This is IMHO, exactly what they have done when the put a WRB in the middle of the road with no buffer zone.

Doesn't change the fact that if stupidity hadn't entered the equation then a grand total of zero New Zealand motorcyclists would have been killed by WRBs.

[RiderInBlack]

Doesn't change the fact that if stupidity hadn't entered the equation then a grand total of zero New Zealand motorcyclists would have been killed by WRBs.I agree with you totally there Katman, but where the WRB are concerned I'm counting the "Stupidity"of choosing WRB as the best option for NZ Roads. That was very f*cken Stupid.
Just as a side point, we would be a very boring species and wouldn't have got anywhere without a degree of Stupidity. Stop and think deeply about that, and know that it is true.

[riffer]

Did you not read what I had written or did you misunderstand what I had written?
Where in there do I suggest that MSL funds be used the make the WRB safer for Motorcycles? What I had suggested that MSL takes Smith at his "Word" that he would "Listen" to their "Advise" and advise him that WRB need to be made safer.
By the way, how many "Deaths" do you need before you accept something as not doing the job it was intend to do, or the a "Safety Barrier" is unsafe?




Sorry Doug, totally misunderstood you there. I've been banging my head against the wall over the MSL all day and my brains have turned to custard.

However, I'm not sure if the Minister has the veto right over MSL anyway. Interesting thought. Perhaps that's something an MSLC member could advise on.

[pete376403]

In the case of the WRB death - if instead it had been armco, or a concrete median barrier, is it absolutely sure that the person would have survived? IE it seems to be a given that the WRB was the sole cause of death, but would the crash have been any more survivable if the barrier had been anything else?

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

I for one think it will be a positive step for there to be a pro-motorbike voice associated with the ACC (even if it will be an uphill battle).

Far better than when we just had Mike "I hate motorbikes" Noon representing all road users. That man is single handedly responsible for giving Nick Smith the ammo for the hikes IMHO. Good on you lot for demanding that he not be involved.

[Brian d marge]

I for one think it will be a positive step for there to be a pro-motorbike voice associated with the ACC (even if it will be an uphill battle).

Far better than when we just had Mike "I hate motorbikes" Noon representing all road users. That man is single handedly responsible for giving Nick Smith the ammo for the hikes IMHO. Good on you lot for demanding that he not be involved.

I have that same feeling to, Watch wait and see

I would have no probl;em paying for ACC and some sort of Mc , extra cover / training what ever ...

Rip of Tax , ACC and cover I object to!

Stephen

[fossil]

I for one think it will be a positive step for there to be a pro-motorbike voice associated with the ACC (even if it will be an uphill battle).

Far better than when we just had Mike "I hate motorbikes" Noon representing all road users. That man is single handedly responsible for giving Nick Smith the ammo for the hikes IMHO. Good on you lot for demanding that he not be involved.

Found this on STUFF and I think this is the antithesis of Mike Noon;

Mr Searancke, who has been named as deputy chairman, said the council's focus would be decided at its first meeting next month.


"We want to make the most difference we can with the money we have and work on the areas where we can make the most gains."

The big positive was that the council was made up of motorcyclists, he said.

Mr Searancke believed the council would be successful.

A similar safety programme in Victoria, Australia, has seen motorcycle deaths and serious injuries fall by 20 per cent since it came into force in 2002.

"Victoria have good information they are willing to share with us," he said.

"Motorcycling is great – we just need to make sure fewer riders get hurt and killed."

[Usarka]

REDUCE THE LEVY's




While this is admirable, I'd prefer to see a decrease in the number of motorcycle fatalitys personally.

If we don't reduce the levy's there'll be fuck all motorcyclists to save in 10 years time.

[Fatt Max]

I don’t usually like to get embroiled in threads such as these but I feel compelled to throw my pie into the ring so to speak.

Personally, I oppose any increase in levies and the MSL. I believe the increases are based on flawed statistics and the MSL is rather a crude offer of retro compensation from a government that uses stealth tactics to achieve their ultimate gains, whatever they may be.

However, we are stuck with the levy increases for now, that’s a fact and at this point in time we cant make much of a difference to what exists.

Now, I have read with great interest these and other threads over the past 48 hours and have spoken to various people on ‘both sides of the fence’. The result of this is, for me, a way forward that may not please everyone but again, exists.

The MSL council, as far as I have ascertained, consists of individuals from the various motorcycling groups that were around at the time of the levy increase announcements and the BIKOI in 2009. As I see it, these people have been charged with ensuring the MSL funds are spent in the best interests of motorcyclists NZ wide regardless of what group, association or bakery they belong to. I don’t agree that the MSL fund exists (yes, I have said that) but what does give me a certain level of comfort is that the people on this council are bikers and by all accounts should ensure bikers get the best deal possible.

I for one am glad the council is not made up of a load of OSH type people, bankers, worn out safety advisors and ex politicians, none with any credentials whatsoever to fight our corner.

What we have here is individuals with experience as bikers.

What we also have here is a bunch of individuals who, I believe, are in for a pretty rough time in biker land. I mean, the council will not please everyone and these people will cop the flack. I wish them the best of luck with their endeavors and hope and pray that they do the best for the motorcycle community that I simply love being a part of. The council will be held responsible for their actions and whatever comes out of this.

I understand there is a time limit to reduce the crash stats and I hope that we, as bikers, see some kind of recognition for this if it happens. It does mean we have to be responsible for ourselves and ride safely as well as taking advantage of any upskilling that is available to us. Then, I see our community being able to kick back at these pollies, prove that we know what we are doing and demand a reduction in these levies. Yes, the levies should not exist but we are stuck with them, so lets work as a community to make life easier for all of us.

In closing, that is my fear. That all this shit fighting and jibbing is playing into the hands of those that want to see us divided. We are a community, MAG, BRONZ whoever, we all share the common lifestyle choice that is motorcycling. Lets at least try and maintain a level of solidarity as a community and make the change we know we can make.

I wish those who have taken up the mantle of working for our common rights the very best of luck, it would be rude not to really.

My opinion, that’s all

Ooh, pie time……..

[riffer]

Couldn't agree more.

Good on ya Mark. If you were down here I'd give you some of our home made bacon and egg pie.

[Fatt Max]

Couldn't agree more.

Good on ya Mark. If you were down here I'd give you some of our home made bacon and egg pie.

Oooh, now you have gone and given me a lard on.......oooooohhhhh....

[allycatz]

Great to see representation for scooters seeing as scooters took such a big hike in fees. Personally I would like to see one ACC annual fee per Licence holder that covers all vehicles as you can only ride / drive one thing at a time, but obviously the revenue collected as it is now would be far more attractive to ACC

[StoneY]

Someone say pie?
My workmate just dumped a custard square on my desk how nice of him! (even if he owns a Honda!)

[Fatt Max]

Someone say pie?
My workmate just dumped a custard square on my desk how nice of him! (even if he owns a Honda!)

A Honda owner dumping custard in your lap...?? Now there's a thought.....

[avgas]

Not, but I would blame the person callas enough to point a gun at someone else's head & it goes off. I would also object strongly to someone else pointing a gun to my head, without it going off. This is IMHO, exactly what they have done when the put a WRB in the middle of the road with no buffer zone.
And sign posts on the side of the roads.
And traffic in the other lane.
And hedgehogs/possums/chickens/ducks who feel the need to cross the road.
and speedbumps.
and traffic lights.
and the traffic in front of me.
and the traffic behind me.

sorry you metaphor is broken.
Its not really like pointing a gun at your face. Its more like putting a big bad dangerous knife in the kitchen where children/retards might walk.
Only dangerous if you decide to touch it. And you would have to lack some intelligence to want to touch it.

[Max Preload]

And sign posts on the side of the roads.
And traffic in the other lane.
And hedgehogs/possums/chickens/ducks who feel the need to cross the road.
and speedbumps.
and traffic lights.
and the traffic in front of me.
and the traffic behind me.

sorry you metaphor is broken.
Its not really like pointing a gun at your face. Its more like putting a big bad dangerous knife in the kitchen where children/retards might walk.
Only dangerous if you decide to touch it. And you would have to lack some intelligence to want to touch it.Your examples cannot be easily be substituted with a safer alternative. The fact of the matter is that the WRBs aren't being installed according to the manufacturers guidelines which requires a 6m distance from the edge of the roadway to the WRBs - in most cases they're installed immediately adjacent to the roadway which offers no real protection to traffic flowing in the opposite direction - any vehicle that hits them will still cross to the opposing lane! Their proximity to the roadway makes them a uneccessary additional hazard for exposed motorists like motorcyclists.

In short, it's not that WRBs are being used... it's WHERE they're being used.

[StoneY]

in most cases they're installed immediately adjacent to the roadway which offers no real protection to traffic flowing in the opposite direction - any vehicle that hits them will still cross to the opposing lane!

Actually they still stop other vehicles crossing the centreline, my fiance and I came accross the craziest rain we ever hit on the KTM mid last winter...wasn't rain tho

It was windscreen glass showering down on us from the car tangled into the WRB on Moonshine Bridge, River Road Upper Hutt
Worst installed WRBs I ever seen, 200ml from the edge of the lane.....

But with no WRB there we would have been dead coz it would been a car hitting us head on not glass shards, its actually saved our bacon. No exageration, we would have been run completely over head on by the drunken bitch that went to sleep with her kids in the car........

They do stop the cars, but I still hate em.

One thing MSL could be used for is to modify the worst sections...
Lets face it, untill you, me or Katman becomes prime minister TPTB will never remove such a shitty cheap option that effectively does it primary task very well, keeps cars/vans etc from crossing the centreline

[Max Preload]

Actually they still stop other vehicles crossing the centreline, my fiance and I came accross the crasiest rain we ever hit on the KTM mid last winter...wasnt rain tho

It was winscreen glass showering down on us from the car tangled into the WRB on Moonshine Bridge, River Road Upper Hutt
Worst installed WRBs I ever seen, 200ml from the edge of the lane.....

But with no WRB there we would have been dead coz it would been a car hitting us head on not glass shards, its actually saved our bacon. No exageration, we would have been run completely over head on by the drunken bitch that went to sleep with her kids in the car........

They do stop the cars, but I still hate em.

One thing MSL could be used for is to modify the worst sections...
Lets face it, untill you, me or Katman becomes prime minister TPTB will never remove such a shitty cheap option that effectively does it primary task very well, keeps cars/vans etc from crossing the centrelineSorry, but simple physics and the manufacturers disagree. Your anecdotal evidence does not stack up against that.
http://www.csppacific.co.nz/Products.php?id=48&Cat=Road_Barriers&MenuBut=RBarriers&MenuItem=1&Categorized=
Those levels of deflection given on the table, which are typical, will ensure that installations immediately adjacent to opposing lanes will offer little beneficial protection. In the case of vehicles travelling in opposing directions at such close proximity the only acceptable solution is an inpenetrable barrier.

[StoneY]

Sorry, but simple physics and the manufacturers disagree. Your anecdotal evidence does not stack up against that.
.

Nothing anecdotal about seeing a 2.5 ton car stopped by the ropes before it got to me mate.

[oneofsix]

Actually they still stop other vehicles crossing the centreline, my fiance and I came accross the craziest rain we ever hit on the KTM mid last winter...wasn't rain tho

It was windscreen glass showering down on us from the car tangled into the WRB on Moonshine Bridge, River Road Upper Hutt
Worst installed WRBs I ever seen, 200ml from the edge of the lane.....

But with no WRB there we would have been dead coz it would been a car hitting us head on not glass shards, its actually saved our bacon. No exageration, we would have been run completely over head on by the drunken bitch that went to sleep with her kids in the car........

They do stop the cars, but I still hate em.

One thing MSL could be used for is to modify the worst sections...
Lets face it, untill you, me or Katman becomes prime minister TPTB will never remove such a shitty cheap option that effectively does it primary task very well, keeps cars/vans etc from crossing the centreline

on SH1, along the coastal they lowered the speed limit until the WRB was installed. After the WRB is installed the lower limit become permanent. This implies the WRB is a redundant and dangerous (to motorcyclists) piece of road furniture, either that or the lowered limit is redundant.
I have noted the lowered limit has caused distraction accidents, more than one driver admitting they lost concerntration along that stretch much has previously been proving safe at 100km. Hell I've had to shake myself awake, usually after the WRB, due to the boring tedium of that piece of road at 80km or less day after day.

[Max Preload]

Nothing anecdotal about seeing a 2.5 ton car stopped by the ropes before it got to me mate.Perhaps you should look up the term anecdotal (http://www.google.co.nz/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=definition:+anecdotal&aq=f&aqi=g4g-m1&aql=&oq=&fp=c0990dcee7eb7162) because that's exactly what your testimony is.

[StoneY]

Perhaps you should look up the term anecdotal (http://www.google.co.nz/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=definition:+anecdotal&aq=f&aqi=g4g-m1&aql=&oq=&fp=c0990dcee7eb7162) because that's exactly what your testimony is.

I know what the word means, and you imply I am making up a 'relational storyline' with its use in your reply

This was a real incident pal, and there was nothing made up to be a comparison to reallity (thats an anectdote)
The WRB on Moonshine bridge saved my life and that of my fiance, fact, you were not there so don't try to imply my recollection of a real incident is in any way manner or form a fabrication to campare potentialreallity
It IS reallity.

I still hate em and say theyre the cheapest shittiest option out there, but it stopped that car for us that night.

[Ronin]

I know what the word means, and you imply I am making up a 'relational storyline' with its use in your reply

This was a real incident pal, and there was nothing made up to be a comparison to reallity (thats an anectdote)
The WRB on Moonshine bridge saved my life and that of my fiance, fact, you were not there so don't try to imply my recollection of a real incident is in any way manner or form a fabrication to campare potentialreallity
It IS reallity.

I still hate em and say theyre the cheapest shittiest option out there, but it stopped that car for us that night.

It is anecdotal as it it not a rigorously proven scientific fact that the WRB saved your life. Rather, it is an unproven story to any objective listener.

You may want to brush up on it. Government comities have a long history of not accepting anecdotal evidence.

[riffer]

Ronin and Max Preload - you're being pedantic wankers.

[Max Preload]

I know what the word means, and you imply I am making up a 'relational storyline' with its use in your reply. This was a real incident pal, and there was nothing made up to be a comparison to reallity (thats an anectdote)
The WRB on Moonshine bridge saved my life and that of my fiance, fact, you were not there so don't try to imply my recollection of a real incident is in any way manner or form a fabrication to campare potentialreallity
It IS reallity.I never said you were making up anything regarding your experience that time. I was saying your claim of them working, even in close proximity to the roadway, is based on anecdotal evidence and carries no weight. :facepalm:

Look at the link to the definition of 'anecdotal' (http://www.google.co.nz/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=definition:+anecdotal&aq=f&aqi=g4g-m1&aql=&oq=&fp=1&cad=b) because you clearly don't actually know the meaning of the term.


Ronin and Max Preload - you're being pedantic wankers.Is it now considered being pedantic to not accept one person's sole experience and observation over demostrable logic and actual tabulated test results as per my link?

[StoneY]

I never said you were making up anything regarding your experience that time. I was saying your claim of them working, even in close proximity to the roadway, is based on anecdotal evidence and carries no weight. :facepalm:

Look at the link to the definition of aneddotal evidence.

Fair call - symantics
But seriously thats one of the worst WRBs for proximity to the lane, and an S Bend shaped bend and bridge seriously off camber
The car spun along the WRB, we copped a shitload of flying debri but no car parts....just a glass shower

Then the drunken mole crawls out of her car and tells all the spectators we ran her off the road and our bikes under her car...wtf? :bs:
We werent even on the same side of the barrier...I was very happy there was a wrb there as opposed to a double yellow line..........

[riffer]

Is it now considered being pedantic to not accept one person's sole experience and observation over demostrable logic and actual tabulated test results as per my link?

No it is considered being a wanker to tell someone that their actual experience versus scientific theory is "just a story".

You're not a climate change scientist for a living are you?

[avgas]

Your examples cannot be easily be substituted with a safer alternative.
More people suffer injuries due to knife cuts that gunshot wounds in "relative" safe day to day life.
Now who is being anecdotal?

Likewise statistically speaking less people die in WRB than if the WRB were not there.

However I can see you are not happy with the fact that I have apparently made the alternative 'safer'. So lets go to the other extreme - imagine riding a motorbike through a safely marked trail in a landmine field.
Would you try and venture off that marked trail?

Or plugging in powered devices into a power source that has multiple outlets through a house and can kill you in less than 200 milliseconds. These outlets have the potential to be wet as well.

The world is a dangerous place my friend.....I suggest you keep the eyes on the prize rather than sugar coat it and bubble wrap it.

[MSTRS]

Stoney - are we talking Stonechucker's bridge? On River Road, just north of the Moonshine Rd intersection?
I wonder how much potential deflection is over-ridden by the fact that the WRB is installed on a curve?
In saying that, I think of all the stupid positionings of WRB, installing on a curve has to be the worst. Anyone on the inside, that loses it for any reason, goes straight into that shit. For bikers, ride as safe as you like, but get hit by a sudden vicious crosswind, have a front tyre blowout, hit diesel or whatever...you're gone.

[avgas]

the only acceptable solution is an inpenetrable barrier.
Errr nope wrong again.
That is the most ideal solution.
Just like VDSL broadband, earthquake proof foundations........and my personal favorite term "REDUNDANCY".
All ideal for the situation..........yet still not done.

Still WRB offer better solution that previous attempts.......aka 2.75mm of white paint.
Acceptable is in the eyes of the customer.
Not the user.
Not the builder/designer.

[RiderInBlack]

One thing MSL could be used for is to modify the worst sections...
Lets face it, untill you, me or Katman becomes prime minister TPTB will never remove such a shitty cheap option that effectively does it primary task very well, keeps cars/vans etc from crossing the centreline]Katman would leave the WRB there and put more in because he thinks that WRB will only kill stupid Riders.

[riffer]

Stoney - are we talking Stonechucker's bridge? On River Road, just north of the Moonshine Rd intersection?
I wonder how much potential deflection is over-ridden by the fact that the WRB is installed on a curve?
In saying that, I think of all the stupid positionings of WRB, installing on a curve has to be the worst. Anyone on the inside, that loses it for any reason, goes straight into that shit. For bikers, ride as safe as you like, but get hit by a sudden vicious crosswind, have a front tyre blowout, hit diesel or whatever...you're gone.


The very one John. On the plus side, Dave's accident was one of the mitigating factors used to forever close off the access to Upper Hutt side of Moonshine Road so that accident would never happen again. The WRB is not on the bridge itself; it's on the northern side stopping northbound traffic from turning into the path of oncoming traffic to get on to Moonshine Road.

In the case of Brent and Kelly I do believe they could have been subject to EXACTLY the same sort of accident as Dave had.

So while the installation of the WRB was not strictly in accordance with the legal guidelines, it would appear ANECDOTALLY that it actually saved a life or two.

[riffer]

]Katman would leave the WRB there and put more in because he thinks that WRB will only kill stupid Riders.

Katman would probably say something a little more intelligently thought out than that. Most people would misinterpret it though.

[Max Preload]

More people suffer injuries due to knife cuts that gunshot wounds in "relative" safe day to day life.
Now who is being anecdotal?
You clearly don't know the meaning if the word either. Do yourself a favour and LOOK IT UP. :facepalm: You're clearly confusing anecdotal evidence, that I was discussing, with proportionate vs overall representation i.e. there are more knives in possession per capita and they are used more often than firearms thus one would expect the injuries to be more common. Duh.


Likewise statistically speaking less people die in WRB than if the WRB were not there.That's true. However, if the WRB were replaced with a concrete barrier in situation where there is less than 12m of opposing lane seperation even less people would die because there's no way for most vehicles to cross into the oppossing lane to any degree. When there's 1.5m of deflection and the lanes are seperated only by 500mm of space (250mm each side of the barrier not even accounting for the thickness of the barrier itself) then that means the vehicles are still penetrating 1m into the opposing traffic's lane. Sure, a WRB is better for most oft he vehicles than just painting a line but it still has nothing on a full concrete barrier as far as preventing egress of vehicles to opposing lanes goes. WRBs only work fully where the deflection is less than the distance to the other lanes. Surely even an idiot can see that?


However I can see you are not happy with the fact that I have apparently made the alternative 'safer'. So lets go to the other extreme - imagine riding a motorbike through a safely marked trail in a landmine field.
Would you try and venture off that marked trail?

Or plugging in powered devices into a power source that has multiple outlets through a house and can kill you in less than 200 milliseconds. These outlets have the potential to be wet as well.Fuck, you talk some total irrelevant waffling bullshit. Lay off the drugs.


The world is a dangerous place my friend.....I suggest you keep the eyes on the prize rather than sugar coat it and bubble wrap it.If you haven't noticed, it's supporters of WRB in inappropriate locations that are doing the sugar coating with mere anecdotal evidence that simply doesn't stack up to scrutiny.


I wonder how much potential deflection is over-ridden by the fact that the WRB is installed on a curve?Naturally, if you're to hit a wire tensioned on thin posts around a curve on the outside it's never going to be as good at deflecting the vehicle as it would be if hit from the inside - the shape is determined only by the post's ability to maintain the curved shape. Knock a couple of the posts out down and the tension is gone as the wire forms a chord between the remaining ones meaning the deflection in the WRB is greatly increased for any given load.


Errr nope wrong again.
That is the most ideal solution.
Just like VDSL broadband, earthquake proof foundations........and my personal favorite term "REDUNDANCY".
All ideal for the situation..........yet still not done.

Still WRB offer better solution that previous attempts.......aka 2.75mm of white paint.
Acceptable is in the eyes of the customer.
Not the user.
Not the builder/designer.It's the only acceptable situation for me, the tax payer, therefore the customer and also the user, where there is less than acceptable opposing lane separation for effective operation.

In what context are you attempting to claim a degree of 'redundancy'? :rolleyes:

[RiderInBlack]

Katman would probably say something a little more intelligently thought out than that. Most people would misinterpret it though.Not really. I find it amusing that so many people think that clever writing equates to subject being intelligently thought out and (even worse) being right. I've see a lot of so call Intelligent People do the dumbest things in life.
As for Barriers, I would prefer one build with give in it as that absorbs the forces better. But it not that part of the WRB that will kill you. It is the I and W steel un-moving posts that are the deadly part. Movable concrete barriers tethered together and the road would be better. Even modifying the WRB so the impact forces get deflected along the WRB instead of dragging them into the posts. Ya don't have to have a Deg in Engineering to work that out.

[Katman]

Katman would probably say something a little more intelligently thought out than that. Most people would misinterpret it though.

You've gotta admit though, he might be on to something. :msn-wink:

[Ocean1]

I would prefer one build with give in it as that absorbs the forces better.

No, empirical data indicates the deflection/absorption thing isn't particularly important at the usual angles of impact, (surprisingly consistent at around 15 deg) for it’s design rating, (cars). For motorcyclists, obviously the posts are the issue, and at speeds where it might make a difference they deflect hardly at all.


Ya don't have to have a Deg in Engineering to work that out.

It is, however a variable that civil engineers understand and unfortunately over-rate and is therefore a valuable marketing feature for WRB.

The numbers I found indicated that WRB as installed in NZ was 5% cheaper to install than traditional concrete barriers but was considerably more expensive over it’s (shorter) lifespan.

Over several performance indicators WRB performed approximately similar to concrete when installed with the recommended offset. I’m aware that communication involving one manufacturer regarding an “alternative” installation regime a couple of years ago became quite… litigious very quickly.

They're a valid target for anyone concerned with motorcycle safety.

[StoneY]

They're a valid target for anyone concerned with motorcycle safety.

Thats something I totally agree with

However reality check
9,500 or so of us screamed BULLSHIT at Nick on Parliaments lawn to arguably reduce the proposed hike of 500$ down to 178$

How many screaming bikers will it take to have these removed?
Far more than there are in NZ

So...unless someone wants to organise a worldwide BIKEOI over WRB's being poorly installed in Aoteroa, we are stuck with them

Anecdotal or not, my own experiece has been that a WRB (one of the poorly installed ones at that) saved my arse, and my girls, as a Holden Commodore bounced from post to post, breaking 3 of them too, and the wires held.

I am all for upgrading the ugly things
We can get them modified quite cheaply, our chances of getting them removed is not a reallity IMO

[MSTRS]

The very one John. On the plus side, Dave's accident was one of the mitigating factors used to forever close off the access to Upper Hutt side of Moonshine Road so that accident would never happen again. The WRB is not on the bridge itself; it's on the northern side stopping northbound traffic from turning into the path of oncoming traffic to get on to Moonshine Road.

In the case of Brent and Kelly I do believe they could have been subject to EXACTLY the same sort of accident as Dave had.

So while the installation of the WRB was not strictly in accordance with the legal guidelines, it would appear ANECDOTALLY that it actually saved a life or two.

Yep. I know the place reasonably well. And yes, some sort of impedance to turning right out of the side road is prolly a good thing. Not convinced WRB is appropriate, despite Brent's experience, for the reason/s I posted.
But when you come down to it, having to deny motorists a right turn is more a reflection on the standard of driving than any engineering need.

[avgas]

]Katman would leave the WRB there and put more in because he thinks that WRB will only kill stupid Riders.
Hahahaha classic.
On a serious note however - would it kill smart ones?
Only time will tell I guess.

[avgas]

That's true. However, if the WRB were replaced with a concrete barrier in situation where there is less than 12m of opposing lane seperation even less people would die because there's no way for most vehicles to cross into the oppossing lane to any degree. When there's 1.5m of deflection and the lanes are seperated only by 500mm of space (250mm each side of the barrier not even accounting for the thickness of the barrier itself) then that means the vehicles are still penetrating 1m into the opposing traffic's lane. Sure, a WRB is better for most oft he vehicles than just painting a line but it still has nothing on a full concrete barrier as far as preventing egress of vehicles to opposing lanes goes. WRBs only work fully where the deflection is less than the distance to the other lanes. Surely even an idiot can see that?

It's the only acceptable situation for me, the tax payer, therefore the customer and also the user, where there is less than acceptable opposing lane separation for effective operation.

In what context are you attempting to claim a degree of 'redundancy'? :rolleyes:
Ok well you think your a customer then.
Have you done the business plan with your other parts of the customer whom have vested interest?
Do you know how much it will cost to replace all WRB with concrete ones?
Show us the facts and figures.....you are only 1 part of 4 million members for whom are the customer, I am not saying your argument is a bad one, but that you have not given us a reason of why things should change and how it should change.
Basically you have not sold the situation yet.

Simply jumping up and down, saying "Its not good enough" - or "science shows its bad" is what I would expect from a 8 year old. You are not 8, your a big boy now - you have to bring the total package to your argument, not just the flaws.

The term redundancy is a bane of my life. Redundant supply lines, redundant communications, redundant policy, redundant architecture, redundant access paths.....
Its a love hate relationship, I feel that if something is critical enough it should have 'a' form of redundancy ...... but at what level is the gray area. I mean there aren't many 2 engine motorbikes etc

[riffer]

The Department of Transport and Regional Services (part of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau) commissioned a report in 2000 from Monash University's Accident Research Centre into Motorcycle and Safety Barrier Crash-testing.

I think this report is still valid, especially as NZ looks to Monash University for the lead in Motor Vehicle safety here.

The study states that:

"... with regard to motorcyclists, barriers should be designed with the aim of containment in mind, as long as the containment of the rider does not result in more severe injuries than would be sustained if the rider were to pass over, through or under the barrier. This view is consistent with that of all of the authorities and stakeholders consulted where it was generally agreed that containment and redirection of the rider will prevent subsequent impact with hazards that lay beyond the barrier. A review of the literature identified several barrier design issues which impact upon motorcycle rider safety.

The literature suggests that the most dangerous aspect of guardrails with respect to motorcyclists is exposed guardrail posts. Both the tops and bottoms of the posts present edges and corners which act to concentrate the impact forces and thus, increase the severity of the injuries sustained. Impacts with guardrail posts can cause serious injuries through deceleration of the torso, fracture of the extremities, or occasionally, decapitation. In addition, the jagged edges of wire mesh, or wire mesh topped barrier systems provide numerous lacerating surfaces which serve to accentuate rider injury risk. Barrier systems of insufficient height can also pose a threat to riders as they can be catapulted over the top of barrier systems. Alternatively, barrier systems such as W-beam barriers and WRSBs that leave a space between the road surface and the bottom of the barrier, potentially allow riders to slide under the barrier into contact with roadside hazards. Rigid barriers cause the rider to absorb virtually all of the kinetic energy at impact thus increasing injury risk for riders, particularly as the impact angle increases...



The RTA believed that the poor energy transfer properties of concrete barriers may be underestimated by motorcyclists, especially at higher impact angles. In addition, other road users would experience higher injury severity from the substitution of concrete barriers in the place of WRSBs. The Motorcycle Council believed that the problems with energy-sharing properties (such as with concrete barriers) presents less of an injury risk to motorcyclists than barrier types that do not have a smooth continuous surface (such as W-beam and WRSBs).



In terms of WRSBs, it was the opinion of the RTA that the posts of this barrier type would be more dangerous to riders than the ropes themselves. The Motorcycle Council expressed concern regarding both of these features, noting that while there is no existing data to suggest that the wire ropes cause severe injuries when struck by riders, they believe the ropes would be abrasive and concentrate impact forces over a small area.



The sharp edges and the tops and bottoms of W-beam barriers were identified as inherently dangerous features for motorcyclists.



It was suggested by the RTA that the posts of WRSBs could be made more forgiving for motorcyclists by making them out of a frangible material and/or by flattening out the posts to increase their surface area in the direction that they are most often hit by motorcyclists.




The concept of covering WRSBs with some sort of sheath (possibly made of a rubber/plastic compound) was suggested to improve the safety performance of this barrier type."

[Max Preload]

Ok well you think your a customer then.
Have you done the business plan with your other parts of the customer whom have vested interest?
Do you know how much it will cost to replace all WRB with concrete ones?
Show us the facts and figures.....you are only 1 part of 4 million members for whom are the customerBut most of the others are blissfully ignorant or not posting here.

The numbers I found indicated that WRB as installed in NZ was 5% cheaper to install than traditional concrete barriers but was considerably more expensive over it’s (shorter) lifespan.That says to me that there was not only no need to install them in unsuitable locations with minimal lane separation where concrete barriers are more effective but that it was more costly long term even in the ideal locations!


I am not saying your argument is a bad one, but that you have not given us a reason of why things should change and how it should change.
Basically you have not sold the situation yet.So the fact they're not installed according to the manufacturers guidelines isn't cause enough for you to look into and discover the reasons those guidelines exist in the first place? I'm not selling anything - I'm expressing my opinion based on the physics and common sense. Since there's no appreciable cost saving yet higher ongoing maintenance costs over a concrete barrier, they're a total fail. Pure and simple. You're welcome to try and prove otherwise.


Simply jumping up and down, saying "Its not good enough" - or "science shows its bad" is what I would expect from a 8 year old. You are not 8, your a big boy now - you have to bring the total package to your argument, not just the flaws.I don't have to do anything of the sort. Now the science is not enough but anecdotal evidence is? :killingme


The term redundancy is a bane of my life. Redundant supply lines, redundant communications, redundant policy, redundant architecture, redundant access paths.....
Its a love hate relationship, I feel that if something is critical enough it should have 'a' form of redundancy ...... but at what level is the gray area. I mean there aren't many 2 engine motorbikes etcThat's nice. But what's it's relevance to any part of this discussion?

[StoneY]

But when you come down to it, having to deny motorists a right turn is more a reflection on the standard of driving than any engineering need.

Not at moonshine.
It needed to be closed

I recall crossing the bridge heading north before that turn was closed off to both sides of SH2 at a sedate 80kmh on Dads old GN250
Even at 80kmh, I was near taken out by a cager (yes bad driving by him for sure) who turned right out of moonshine and direcly into the lane as opposed to the long run on lane that was there before

Also people turning RIGHT off sh2 into Moonshine constantly underestimated speed of southbound traffic
Closing Moonshine off as they did was a good thing...(except for my beloved WRB being used)...I would have preffered W beam, but hey...

After enough close calls on one stretch of road, I wonder why they dont just re-build the bloody bridge properly and straighten it (just a bit) and make it 4 lanes like the rest of the road will be if those works ever get completed.......

[StoneY]

You've gotta admit though, he might be on to something. :msn-wink:

Oh man will you stop making sense? LOL
:niceone:

[riffer]

After enough close calls on one stretch of road, I wonder why they dont just re-build the bloody bridge properly and straighten it (just a bit) and make it 4 lanes like the rest of the road will be if those works ever get completed.......

I've got some bad news for you on that one Brent. According to the information I've read the road works will simply install a 3 metre wide low profile concrete barrier inbetween the lanes.

The NZ Transport Agency has awarded the tender for the $2.4 million project to Fulton Hogan Ltd, with work to widen and reseal this stretch of highway due to start next week (week starting June 14). At least one lane of traffic in each direction will be open at all times to minimise delays.
The road widening will enable a three metre wide median strip to be marked out, once the stretch has been resealed. This work is expected to be complete by early next year. The construction of the median barrier will take a further 10 weeks and is expected to be completed by mid next year.
NZTA’s State Highways Manager, Wellington, Rob Whight says these safety improvements are necessary because of the high crash rate along this stretch of the River Road.

For more information please contact:
Joanna Poole
Senior Communications Adviser
T 64 4 894 5211
M 021 648 571
Joanna.poole@nzta.govt.nz


The dual carriageway update isn't due to be started until 2015.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/state-highway-2-hutt-corridor-strategic-study/docs/sh2-hutt-corridor-strategic-study.pdf

[avgas]

I don't have to do anything of the sort.
Then don't expect anything to change.
Contrary to popular belief change is not brought by those who ask for it.......its brought by those whom do it.

[StoneY]

Then don't expect anything to change.
Contrary to popular belief change is not brought by those who ask for it.......its brought by those whom do it.

Mate, despite some of our differences in the past, this post is GOLD

And while we might not be able to get our own way all the time, at least we are out there fucking trying hard

[Ocean1]

The RTA believed that the poor energy transfer properties of concrete barriers may be underestimated by motorcyclists, especially at higher impact angles.

They “believe” eh?

They need to break out their calculator. It’s easy, impact force is reduced by the tangent of the angle of impact. It’s also non-linear, at typical impact angles the force of impact is dramatically less.

Hit a WRB at any angle at 100 kph and you’re still going to hit the posts perpendicular to your direction of travel. That’s 100% of that force applied to your legs, spine, head. Hit a solid immovable concrete barrier at 100 kph at 12 degrees and the impact force is the same as hitting it head on at 20kph. Hurts. But it’s survivable in most instances.

The same applies to “other vehicles” also. It’s just that they DO take some small advantage from the energy absorbed incrementally over several metres. And, of course displace the WRB up to 2.5 metres in doing so.

See, decisions to install one flavour or another aren’t made by engineers with a vast base of empirical data at their fingertips. They’re made by councils more interested in immediate funding constraints. And they don’t really care much about a much reviled minority.

[Max Preload]

Then don't expect anything to change.
Contrary to popular belief change is not brought by those who ask for it.......its brought by those whom do it.Yeah, that worked really well on the ACC levies, eh. I bet my course of action has saved me a shitload more than any of those 6000 motorcyclists who wasted their time and money on the Bikeoi.

[riffer]

Yeah, that worked really well on the ACC levies, eh. I bet my course of action has saved me a shitload more than any of those 6000 motorcyclists who wasted their time and money on the Bikeoi.

Yeah but we're still riding around aren't we?

[Katman]

And they don’t really care much about a much reviled minority.

What do you think has led to us being "much reviled"?

[avgas]

Yeah, that worked really well on the ACC levies, eh. I bet my course of action has saved me a shitload more than any of those 6000 motorcyclists who wasted their time and money on the Bikeoi.
Reread what I have written. I was not one whom wasted time on the Bikeoi.......as from my perspective it was considered as not really enough on the "doing" side.
This perspective is different to a few on here (such as Stoney, whom I respect now for other things he has done/organized)........but alas that is life.

But you have not come to the table with some kind of organized plan. You are still there complaining..........call the waaabulance.
I stand by what I say - I think your argument is valid, but unless you pull your finger out and come forward with a VALID plan forward......your just blowing steam

As for the WRB not being installed as per specifications. That is life - and it happens on a daily basis. Its not good - but once again you have to put a plan forward for that to change.
Perhaps create a "Recommended Roading Bill" and submit this to parliament (via whatever path you prefer). Stating that all equipment should be as per specified purpose. Chances are you will be heard more.

How do you thing smoking was stopped in NZ?

[RiderInBlack]

How do you thing smoking was stopped in NZ?It hasn't. It's just causes me more paperwork as a Nurse pushing the Government Line and increased the tax the Government gets from smokers (by the way I have never been a smoker).
Back to the point, I am pleased that Motorcyclist are getting a voice via the MSL council. We & the MSL Council just have to make sure that the MSL Council does not end-up being the Government's Lap Dog Pushing the Government's line, and that they become a positive force for the well-being of Motorcycling in NZ.
By the way Riffer, good article from the Department of Transport and Regional Services (part of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau) you posted there. Technically says exactly what concerns me most about WRB's , which is the posts and even suggests how that could be improved.

[Ocean1]

What do you think has led to us being "much reviled"?

Unwarranted bad publicity generated by self flagellating chicken little impersonators?

[avgas]

Unwarranted bad publicity generated by self flagellating chicken little impersonators?
I thought it was the motorbikes?

[StoneY]

Yeah, that worked really well on the ACC levies, eh. I bet my course of action has saved me a shitload more than any of those 6000 motorcyclists who wasted their time and money on the Bikeoi.

And what course was that MP?
Sold your bike? Refused to register it?
Decided to part ways with the rest of society? What?

Whatever the cost becomes, no matter how high the levys get in the future (hopefully we LOWER them) I will always own,and ride, my motorcycles in NZ.

I am liquidating the Ducati due to the maintenance factor - not because of Levy costs, but have to admit if the levys had not been raised I wouldnt be bothered by the servicing like I am now

My mate in Germany - pays twice what I pay on all 3 of my bikes in insurance fee's annually
$1800nzd it works out to roughly for his orad user insurance costs
BUT he gets to own as many bikes as he likes and it covers him in his cage as well
Had he no motorcycles he would be paying about $300NZD so bikes are expensive in insurance costs anywhere in the world it seems
And a good thing Gareth is the Chair he rides in other countries often enough to kow the lay of the land elsewhere,and he is supporting a push to get a SINGLE levy fee for multiple bike owners

I still think we were ripped off, I still think we should be paying exactly the same as every other motorist - accross the board
But we aint.
Thats the way the cookie crumbled, and all the bleating in he world will not turn the clock back

Moving on, if in two years the other council members and I have managed to achieve any reduction injuries from MSL projects, I will be very happy, because that MIGHT get levys reduced...maybe...unlikely...but maybe

And its the only option left to us
So how about the Motorcycle community start thinking of GOOD, ecconomically viable methods to spend our MSL and quit crying over long spilt milk???

[caseye]

Could not have said it better.
Positive shit, not negative crap.

[davereid]

I still think we were ripped off, I still think we should be paying exactly the same as every other motorist - accross the board
But we aint.
Thats the way the cookie crumbled, and all the bleating in he world will not turn the clock back

Moving on, if in two years the other council members and I have managed to achieve any reduction injuries from MSL projects, I will be very happy, because that MIGHT get levys reduced...maybe...unlikely...but maybe

And its the only option left to us
So how about the Motorcycle community start thinking of GOOD, ecconomically viable methods to spend our MSL and quit crying over long spilt milk???


Im not sure we cant get parity with cars, I haven't given up that particular fight. It won't be won on safety grounds, it will be won because politicians are noticing that bikers are organised, intelligent, and wont just back down, and we need to keep that pressure up.

These policies are argued using statistics, but if the politican feels the pressure he will vote to keep his job.

However, I could not agree more, that the MSL has arrived, and we have to get used to it.

Id like to see some of it used to get it added to car regos. After all, they cause around 50% of motorcyclists collision related injuries.

If you pay rego, you contribute, and we have to get involved and make sure it is used well.

Top marks to those who have stood up and said they will help.

[Smifffy]

Parity with cars is more likely, IMO, to come from further increases in the car rego, rather than a reduction in bike ones.

Reducing the levy is about as likely as returning GST to 10% I reckon.

[Fatt Max]

Moving on, if in two years the other council members and I have managed to achieve any reduction injuries from MSL projects, I will be very happy, because that MIGHT get levys reduced...maybe...unlikely...but maybe

And its the only option left to us
So how about the Motorcycle community start thinking of GOOD, ecconomically viable methods to spend our MSL and quit crying over long spilt milk???

Thats what we all hope for. Like it or lump it, the MSL is there. It should not be, it should never be but it is.

If, as a community, we can reduce the (albeit flawed) statistics that the levy increases were based on in the first place by a combination of self responsibility, duty of care, lobbying and protest as well as the work done by those charged with watching the MSL, then we will have achieved something.

That achievement, I believe, will then need to be rewarded.

The reward MUST be the reduction in the unfair levy increases. I see no way out for the policy makers if we prove that to them. All we need to do is keep the foot on the throat of the pollies and hold them to account.

Yes, the levies, MSL, all of it should NOT be there but surely now we must bind as community, get ourselves straight and keep fighting the fight.

A good read of Sun Tzu's 'Art of War' would put a bit of perspective on how this battle needs to be fought.

But hey, what the fuck do I know...:bleh:

[MSTRS]

If, as a community, we can reduce the (albeit flawed) statistics that the levy increases were based on in the first place by a combination of self responsibility, duty of care, lobbying and protest as well as the work done by those charged with watching the MSL, then we will have achieved something.

That achievement, I believe, will then need to be rewarded.


Hear hear. BUT...
We were up against a polly with an agenda. An agenda that was to be realised any way possible, including deeply flawed stats and outright lies. Why would we think that reducing the deaths/injuries will change anything?
Playing Devil's Advocate here...

[Katman]

Why would we think that reducing the deaths/injuries will change anything?


I think it's a case of, we won't know until we try.

What have we got to lose?

[Fatt Max]

Hear hear. BUT...
We were up against a polly with an agenda. An agenda that was to be realised any way possible, including deeply flawed stats and outright lies. Why would we think that reducing the deaths/injuries will change anything?
Playing Devil's Advocate here...

And rightly so John,

Yes, I agree that there is a hidden agenda in all of this and it is slowly revealing itself.

As a biker community, we have an opportunity to fully expose the flaws and all the other bullshit surrounding the levy increases in the first place by activley working, lobbying, protesting and personally demonstrating our cause. If we succeed, we have the further ammo we need.

At this stage we are perceived as a bunch of disgruntled bikers who, in the eyes of Joe Public, 'got what they want and are still moaning'. Thats the perception, we need to change that.

By working together to reduce the stats by a combination of lobbying, protest, personal action, self responsibility etc, we then have the edge to take the whole stealth taxation and hidden agenda fight to the wider public. After all, we have said all along 'Who's Next'.

And this goes for both the present and future policy makers. Doesnt matter if its National, Labour whoever, they all have to be taken to task.

Devil's advocvate is a good standpoint but I suppose it's up to us to make sure this is not the reality.

Again, what the fuck do I know.....

[MSTRS]

Those are exactly the sort of responses I was hoping for, thanks.
So - we can continue the fight, and maybe we can get satisfaction. Or we could be wasting our energies.
But either way - being pro-active is worth the effort.

[Fatt Max]

Those are exactly the sort of responses I was hoping for, thanks.
So - we can continue the fight, and maybe we can get satisfaction. Or we could be wasting our energies.
But either way - being pro-active is worth the effort.

Exactly,

Two very important elements to this I believe,

1 - Keep the pressure on, and
2 - Do not divide as a community. That is a win for the pollies hands down

It doesnt matter which group you belong to, it's the community as a whole that needs to fight this. Our apathy is the weapon of our enemy, the biker community is so much better than that.

[Bald Eagle]

Exactly,

Two very important elements to this I believe,

1 - Keep the pressure on, and
2 - Do not divide as a community. That is a win for the pollies hands down

It doesnt matter which group you belong to, it's the community as a whole that needs to fight this. Our apathy is the weapon of our enemy, the biker community is so much better than that.

Apathy is not the problem. It's the divisions and 'pissing competitions' that hurt us all most. We need to agree to disagree in private and be united in public.

[Fatt Max]

Apathy is not the problem. It's the divisions and 'pissing competitions' that hurt us all most. We need to agree to disagree in private and be united in public.

I agree, and these competitions cause people to throw their hands up in the air, and from there comes the apathy.

Its a combination of all.

I for one want to see cohesion in this. Yes there are differing opinions but the worst that can happen is a division. As I have said, that is the one result the pollies will love in all of this.

Personally, I dont agree with the increases and I dont agree with the MSL but it's here now and we still have the chance to challenge it. United as a community can be the only way

[avgas]

Exactly,

Two very important elements to this I believe,

1 - Keep the pressure on, and
2 - Do not divide as a community. That is a win for the pollies hands down

It doesnt matter which group you belong to, it's the community as a whole that needs to fight this. Our apathy is the weapon of our enemy, the biker community is so much better than that.
What he said.

Learn from the Maori parties mistakes.

[idleidolidyll]

MSL Council named

Gareth Morgan Chair, Paul Searancke from MNZ Deputy Chair
Article below, press release from Nick Smith attached

As you all know, some of us are still angry about the levy hikes, I honestly believe we can make a difference with this fund and its use when managed correctly
Gareth Morgan is a very smart man, I was chatting with him in Nicks office this morning, and I am looking forward to helping make a difference

This council is made up entirely of Motorcyclists
ALL members ride regular, one owns a popular motorcycle dealership
We are tasked to basically be the watchdog of this fund, and ensure it is spent on US!

Peace
Brent
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4565955/Morgan-heads-ACC-funded-bike-group

229589

Gareth may be a smart man but he's also a very wealthy man who supports most of the right wing crap National inflicts on the masses.

For me, the interview on TV when this was announced was telling: not a single word about the unfairness of the levvies, the dangers bike riders face because of bad policy, bad road works etc and not a word on the fact that $2 million is barely a piss in a bucket when it comes to what should be a major project.

My pick is that Morgan is there because National sees him as someone who will help them promote their agenda.

I hope he proves me wrong but I'm not holding my breath

[riffer]

Gareth may be a smart man but he's also a very wealthy man who supports most of the right wing crap National inflicts on the masses.

For me, the interview on TV when this was announced was telling: not a single word about the unfairness of the levvies, the dangers bike riders face because of bad policy, bad road works etc and not a word on the fact that $2 million is barely a piss in a bucket when it comes to what should be a major project.

My pick is that Morgan is there because National sees him as someone who will help them promote their agenda.

I hope he proves me wrong but I'm not holding my breath

Don't agree Mike.

I saw the same article and Gareth said car users need to take responsibility for bike accidents on the telly.

In the official press release on the MSL Nick Smith said:

“Motorcycling is an efficient means of transportation and a popular recreational pursuit but a fatality a week is unacceptable. Motorcyclists are going to need to be more safety conscious, but other road users and road designers are also going to have to change to reduce the motorcycle road toll,” Dr Smith said.

Also... my understanding is that the Government wanted Mike Noon (AA) to chair this Council, but the MSL members unanimously argued for Gareth Morgan to be chosen instead, and the AA has found itself on the outer on this one.

Meantime ACC Minister Nick Smith needs to pay urgent attention to cycle safety and is challenging him to set up a similar fund and Advisory Committee as he has done for motor cyclists, Labours Transport Safety spokesperson Darien Fenton says.

I wonder how this will be paid for? I will not be happy if it comes straight out of ACC funds and will expect to ask questions in that case. We may have to ask some of our Labour contacts for clarification on what they expect here.

Likewise I think we need some clarification from Phill Goff about his statement on Parliament steps that "Labour would unequivocally revoke the ACC levy changes if they got into Parliament."

Don't forget it's an election year.

[idleidolidyll]

Nick Asswipe Smith is involved.

the only smart position at this point therefore is to expect it to be a whitewash or a screwover.

Smith totally disrespected bikers last time and i am certain he hasn't chaged his spots

Anyone thinking at the outset that this is a good thing has already been halfway suckered just like last time Nick Asswipe Smith got involved in our issues

[StoneY]

Gareth may be a smart man but he's also a very wealthy man who supports most of the right wing crap National inflicts on the masses.

Not that I saw in the 2.5 hours we had our discussions in Nicks office dude. He aint no National Yes man at these meetings, I was there.


For me, the interview on TV when this was announced was telling: not a single word about the unfairness of the levvies, the dangers bike riders face because of bad policy, bad road works etc and not a word on the fact that $2 million is barely a piss in a bucket when it comes to what should be a major project.

Hes smart enough to not waste his energy on an already lost battle, however he did press the Minister to look toward one levy on the owner NOT on the bike - so where do you get this idea he is onside with what National forced on us? Because he's rich?
If ANYONE can oversea the re-investment of the fund while its building and awaiting projects to be spent on, who else would be better than him? Not you thats for sure (or me either)


My pick is that Morgan is there because National sees him as someone who will help them promote their agenda.

I hope he proves me wrong but I'm not holding my breath

Your so wrong about that dude, but feel free to keep breathing. He took the Minister and other officials to task on his reservations in my presence so back up a little on judging somone you have not yet had the opportunity to have a face to face conversation over Motrcycle ACC levies with.

I have .... and I was impressed with his attitude and approach as well as his passion for Motorcycling.

The one thing I found hard to swallow was he has a very 'Katman like' attitude to our road behaviour... OMG another one!

[Fatt Max]

Nick Asswipe Smith is involved.

the only smart position at this point therefore is to expect it to be a whitewash or a screwover.

Smith totally disrespected bikers last time and i am certain he hasn't chaged his spots

Anyone thinking at the outset that this is a good thing has already been halfway suckered just like last time Nick Asswipe Smith got involved in our issues

Fair comment mate,

So how do we beat him? That, to me, is what we need to concentrate on now

[James Deuce]

Hey look! Divisions!
M: (Knock)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.

[idleidolidyll]

the first thing is to refuse to play his game and that's what this thing is. let gareth do his thing but don't let that be a big deal.

if BRONZ, MAG Ulysseus etc get on board with that spin too far; it's all gonna end the same with those who represent us claiming they made a difference when all that rteally happened was that National got what they always wanted in the first place.

one of the MAG people asked me to offer my advice in a PM: i did that but have not heard from them since

the answer is the same as it was before they fucked us over last time: make a big noise and don't just go for bike rides.

don't fuck the media around by not turning up

don't trust the media as they are as bad as National and don't give a shit about us

in fact, it would be more newsworthy to totally disrupt a national media org in protest than it would to protest at Mick Asswipe Smiths electorate offices

it's election year and the assholes in power will use this to quell our noise;p they will pretend that this pissant $2 million 'initiative' is gonna make a difference and we should all wait (until its too late) after which time they will raise the rates again and laugh at our gullibility in their offices

don't divide; thats what Nick Asswipe Smith wants us to do. Last time too many bikers attacked cyclists and other members of the community rather than joining them in protest

you'll need to expose them, embarras them and make people hate them enough to vote for anyone but National but if you start too early it will all be a wats of time

you have to think about this from the public and the medias perspective not from ours.
what can we do that will get attention and gain the support of the people of NZ?

going for another friggin ride, regardless of how big, is just another story about a bunch of 'bikies'; it will be forgotten in days

at the bikoi to parliment all the bikes should have ignored the friggin cops and all taken one car park each and handed out flyers to disgruntled tin top drivers

instead the wankers in power were let off the hook by poeple who purport to represent us and Nick Asswipe Smith was able to pick and choose who HE wanted to represent us; it was insulting

i can already see the result of this; a few small bullshit initiatives intended to placate and misdirect with fuck all done about the unfairness of the levy charges or anything really substantial done about the roads and driver awareness to make us safer.

[idleidolidyll]

stoney

like i said; i hope he proves me wrong but regardless of what you think; this is a Nick Asswipe Smith initiative and therefore a smokescreen from the outset

if you and those who represent us buy into this to the extent that you let it stop you from organising REAL opposition; you'll have helped Smith fuck us over again

[idleidolidyll]

Hey look! Divisions!
M: (Knock)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.

divisions?

sure, our 'representatives' dropped the ball last time and later claimed they had 'won' a discount

bullshit, they were suckered and played like patsies

i don't see them doing much better this time around but as per previous comments; i hope i'm proven wrong

regardless of morgan image in your eyes; he's a national supporter and his hope will be to have national in power again next term

think about that when you examine how its all going

[Katman]

The one thing I found hard to swallow was he has a very 'Katman like' attitude to our road behaviour

I should be charging him royalties.

[Fatt Max]

Surely if we unite as a community and work on this issue from all the available angles, we can take this (or any) government to task.

The MSL Council have undertaken to do whatever is best for the biking community. Ragradless of any personal issues people have with others, it's a ballsy statement. I feel it is in the best interest of the community to support their lobbying within the council to get the best deal for us.

Yes, the $2M or whatever fund that is available will not solve it. WE, as the biker community, must take our own personal action to ensure the issue is solved, that issue being the crash statistics and reduction thereof.

At the same time, the community needs to continue to protest, make noise, lobby and the like. The parking issue in Wellington is an example. Although not related to levies, it has shown that the community can unite and will stand up if we need to. This protest work needs to continue as does all the other work.

The main thing is that we must UNITE AS A COMMUNITY. None of us want the incresed levies. We want fair and equitable treatment as bikers. You can even take the militant view that the MSL is an opportunity to expose stealth tactics, deceit and all manner of lies within a government that is different to no others. Use the MSL as a lever to lobby all political parties in this, an election year, to see who would give us the best deal.

Riders are voters remember.....I have heard that somewhere before......

But do not let this divide us, all bets are off if that happens

But hey, what the fuck do I know......

[idleidolidyll]

what morgan says in smith or keys offices is largely irrelevant

if these things are not said to the public of NZ and the full facts of our plight examined in broad daylight, they may as well not be said

i truly don't want to say i told you so but frankly that's what i'm expecting

[MSTRS]

...
you'll need to expose them, embarrass them and make people hate them enough to vote for anyone but National but if you start too early it will all be a waste of time
...

True. But don't forget, the pricks changed the 'rules' so that anyone soapboxing on election issues is supposed to be a registered vote-seeking campaigner, with a paid-up political party behind them. At least as I remember it...

[idleidolidyll]

Surely if we unite as a community and work on this issue from all the available angles, we can take this (or any) government to task.

The MSL Council have undertaken to do whatever is best for the biking community. Ragradless of any personal issues people have with others, it's a ballsy statement. I feel it is in the best interest of the community to support their lobbying within the council to get the best deal for us.

Yes, the $2M or whatever fund that is available will not solve it. WE, as the biker community, must take our own personal action to ensure the issue is solved, that issue being the crash statistics and reduction thereof.

At the same time, the community needs to continue to protest, make noise, lobby and the like. The parking issue in Wellington is an example. Although not related to levies, it has shown that the community can unite and will stand up if we need to. This protest work needs to continue as does all the other work.

The main thing is that we must UNITE AS A COMMUNITY. None of us want the incresed levies. We want fair and equitable treatment as bikers. You can even take the militant view that the MSL is an opportunity to expose stealth tactics, deceit and all manner of lies within a government that is different to no others. Use the MSL as a lever to lobby all political parties in this, an election year, to see who would give us the best deal.

Riders are voters remember.....I have heard that somewhere before......

But do not let this divide us, all bets are off if that happens

But hey, what the fuck do I know......

the danger is that if you buy the farm on this one and expect it to work; you'll have pissed away your chances of taking other actions that might have a chance

i see a set up and i'm waiting for the punchline

[James Deuce]

divisions?

sure, our 'representatives' dropped the ball last time and later claimed they had 'won' a discount

bullshit, they were suckered and played like patsies

i don't see them doing much better this time around but as per previous comments; i hope i'm proven wrong

regardless of morgan image in your eyes; he's a national supporter and his hope will be to have national in power again next term

think about that when you examine how its all going

Geez, don't take it personally. I was talking about everyone.

You can lead a motorcyclist to protest but he'll probably just wander off and buy accessories. Most likely over-priced branded ones.

[idleidolidyll]

True. But don't forget, the pricks changed the 'rules' so that anyone soapboxing on election issues is supposed to be a registered vote-seeking campaigner, with a paid-up political party behind them. At least as I remember it...

as i said; don't play their game

it's only controlled under that legislation if you promote a particular alternative political patry

if we let them exclude the public of NZ because we have to be registered to a particular party then they have already fucked our democracy and thats something else we should all be protesting about

regardless of the rules they set up to benefit themselves; they cannot stop people power if it is used well

it bought down the Berlin wall and they had machine guns and electric fences in their way

[idleidolidyll]

Geez, don't take it personally. I was talking about everyone.

You can lead a motorcyclist to protest but he'll probably just wander off and buy accessories. Most likely over-priced branded ones.

'you' is a general term for all the bike riding 'you's out there

dont take it personally

[Fatt Max]

the danger is that if you buy the farm on this one and expect it to work; you'll have pissed away your chances of taking other actions that might have a chance

i see a set up and i'm waiting for the punchline

I take your point,

But if we work to reduce the levies from all angles, ie Council representation, lobbying, protest action, personal action.....every biker in the country can adopt one of those stances and that way make it a huge community against the same thing.

We are all voters as well

[MSTRS]

Remember, too, that Nick the Prick holds all the cards where the MSL is concerned. The members on the committee are there cos he appointed them. Forget autonomy...if The Prick doesn't like what they do, he will simply remove them.

[Fatt Max]

Remember, too, that Nick the Prick holds all the cards where the MSL is concerned. The members on the committee are there cos he appointed them. Forget autonomy...if The Prick doesn't like what they do, he will simply remove them.

...and there is a great reason to engage in some farking loud, noisy and disruptive protest. As long as the council are up front about it (and I am sure they will be) Smiffy would bring a whole heap of shite down on himself if he did that.

No biker, anywhere, gets shafted like that without consequences

[idleidolidyll]

Remember, too, that Nick the Prick holds all the cards where the MSL is concerned. The members on the committee are there cos he appointed them. Forget autonomy...if The Prick doesn't like what they do, he will simply remove them.

Well said that man; give him the clap

EXACTLY: this is a set up designed by Smith, expect to be bent over and reamed with a steel bottle brush

[James Deuce]

'you' is a general term for all the bike riding 'you's out there

dont take it personally

One struggles to comprehend, but then one has been hit in the head rather a lot.

Would you like fries with that?

[Maha]

Remember, too, that Nick the Prick holds all the cards where the MSL is concerned. The members on the committee are there cos he appointed them. Forget autonomy...if The Prick doesn't like what they do, he will simply remove them.

Agreed John....
Gareth Morgan is an Economist first and foremost, that and the fact that he also rides a Motorbike made him the obvious choice to head a committee that will have close to three million dollars to spend on saving bikers lives. It was made known to us before the Breakfast interview took place that Mr Morgan doesn't necessarily agree with the MSL. But he has been given a job to do. To answers questions as to the viability of such a levy is not part of that job. Possibly that is why he said ''if you have a problem with the MSL, take it up with the government''?

[idleidolidyll]

...and there is a great reason to engage in some farking loud, noisy and disruptive protest. As long as the council are up front about it (and I am sure they will be) Smiffy would bring a whole heap of shite down on himself if he did that.

No biker, anywhere, gets shafted like that without consequences

umm wrong

Nick Asswipe Smith shafted us just like this last time and he's now learned that he can do it and NOT suffer any consequences

my best advice is to be VERY sceptical about the whole thing, hope it goes well but then ignore it and go ahead with plans that are not supplied by Smith, Key or any other National croney

[StoneY]

instead the wankers in power were let off the hook by poeple who purport to represent us and Nick Asswipe Smith was able to pick and choose who HE wanted to represent us; it was insulting

.

So open your own rep group and do it better

Why do you think I was invited to participate?
You think I am a roll over sellout as well???

You want to tell Paul Searancke who has over 23,000 members in his organization that HE is a sellout?

You dont realise how insulting your finger pointing is...
BIKEOI was the last straw for my marriage... it also cost me my job I got so involved organizing it and BRONZ in the aftermath...

What have YOU sacrificed?
YOU go change the government then, meantime I continue to support MAG's NZRAV (great initiatve) and work to see the MSL does not end up as an AA subsidy


Pathetic little people who like to make grand statement when they've personally done NOTHING but type shit into a webforum.... bet you aint even aq member of any of these "organisations purporting to represent 'us' "

[idleidolidyll]

harden the fuck up

those are the facts

[riffer]

The funny thing about facts is how often they turn out to be opinions.

[idleidolidyll]

stoney

stop bleating and posting personal attacks because you don't like my messages

the FACT is that you and the rest of the representatives WERE suckered last time

regadless of your personal bleat; if you do the same again you'll have been as useful to motorcycling as a pimple on a dogs arse

as for me doing nothing; you are hopelssly ill informed and should engage brain before opening mouth

i'm pissed off that people still expect the same dumb tactics by the same people to succeed when they failed completely last time even though those who PURPORTED to represent us claimed success

[MSTRS]

...and there is a great reason to engage in some farking loud, noisy and disruptive protest. As long as the council are up front about it (and I am sure they will be) Smiffy would bring a whole heap of shite down on himself if he did that.

No biker, anywhere, gets shafted like that without consequences

Problem with that is it just gives The Prick more ammunition against us..."See, I gave them what they wanted, they didn't like it, and now they're upset because I took it away."

He truly does hold ALL the cards.

Whilst his colleague in the Police portfolio makes it harder for law-abiding citizens to hold fire-arms...

[idleidolidyll]

funny thing about opinions is that every asshole has one and thinks it will work regardless of past failures

[Katman]

He truly does hold ALL the cards.


No, actually we hold all the cards.

As I've said countless times, if our accident stats plummeted (not just took a gentle dip) we would rob the powers that be of the very core of their argument against us.

[StoneY]

funny thing about opinions is that every asshole has one and thinks it will work regardless of past failures

Exactly what YOU just did, your pathetic and as for hardening the fuck upn look in the mirror

Come on tell us what YOU organised...I recall the whole text bomb plan...epic fail

Bah your not worth my time

[Bald Eagle]

No, actually we hold all the cards.

As I've said countless times, if our accident stats plummeted (not just took a gentle dip) we would rob the powers that be of the very core of their argument against us.

Indeed before we can expect change to the % of crashes that are not our fault we best put our own house in order and stop treating the roads like our own personal playground.

[StoneY]

stoney

stop bleating and posting personal attacks because you don't like my messages

the FACT is that you and the rest of the representatives WERE suckered last time



No it wasnt you fool.
YOU started the 'personal attacks' by calling me and the others who worked HARD to achieve what little we did 'wankers' its right there in the first post you made n this thread

My comment was general, it was aimed 'Pathetic little people who like to make grand statement when they've personally done NOTHING' but if the shoe fits, feel free to take it personally

What makes you think you can call me a wanker and I not take it personally?

As for personal attacks, dickhead, count THIS post as a retaliation to the abusive bling comment you placed in my rep!

Thats PERSONAL for you
Red card please mr Hitcher, this lazy piece of dog turd with the high and mighty opinions and no guns to back them up was worth it!

[MSTRS]

No, actually we hold all the cards.

As I've said countless times, if our accident stats plummeted (not just took a gentle dip) we would rob the powers that be of the very core of their argument against us.

You sure about that?

Yes, only we can make a difference to the m/c injury/death stats. What might work to get that through to every rider is a matter of conjecture. As I see it, we can control crashes that are our fault by riding 'appropriately'. We can (maybe) control crashes that are not our fault by doing every other motorists job for them.

But - no matter what we do, The Prick has an agenda, and can just as easily dismiss any thought or talk of curtailing our levies.

So. The Prick holds the cards. Yes, he may have dealt us a hand, but can we be sure that it is something more than what he knows we hold?

[Katman]

You sure about that?


I wouldn't have said it otherwise.

[MSTRS]

You are sure. But only because of what you believe. Being sure doesn't make you right.
Like the rest of us YOU DON'T KNOW.

[Ronin]

One wonders how long it will take the media to cotton onto a ministerial appointee raving incoherently in a public forum?

[Katman]

You are sure. But only because of what you believe. Being sure doesn't make you right.
Like the rest of us YOU DON'T KNOW.

Open your eyes John. The problems we are currently facing are due to our poor accident statistics - fact. If we dramatically reversed those stats the powers that be would have no ammo to use on us - fact.

[bogan]

Open your eyes John. The problems we are currently facing are due to our poor accident statistics - fact. If we dramatically reversed those stats the powers that be would have no ammo to use on us - fact.

The ammo they are using now is mostly blanks, you hear the bang, but there is no substance behind it.

Sure we can make it harder (and I hope we do, but for me these are separate issues) for them to twist the numbers to their own ends, but do you really think that'll stop them trying?

[admenk]

Open your eyes John. The problems we are currently facing are due to our poor accident statistics - fact. If we dramatically reversed those stats the powers that be would have no ammo to use on us - fact.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments, you're making the mistake of thinking that politicians play by the rules. In an ideal world, if we reduced our accident stats, Mr Smith would be over the moon and reduce our levies accordingly. Unfortunatly in the real world, I suspect he would just find another excuse to penalize us, ie. you're too loud, or I don't like the look of you, or you didn't vote for me etc etc

Yes, let's be responsible and aim to get our stats down, that's got to be good for all of us (we'll still be alive for a start!), but let's not expect any thanks from politicians for doing so...or am I just an old synic?.. (and can I even spell synic?)

[Bald Eagle]

The ammo they are using now is mostly blanks, you hear the bang, but there is no substance behind it.

Sure we can make it harder (and I hope we do, but for me these are separate issues) for them to twist the numbers to their own ends, but do you really think that'll stop them trying?

They never stop trying, that's why economists and statisticians where created so the politicians could keep changing the 'facts' of the current argument to support their objectives.

[Katman]

The ammo they are using now is mostly blanks, you hear the bang, but there is no substance behind it.



No, the ammo they're using now is very real. If they were using blanks we'd be sitting back laughing at how stupid they're making themselves look. Instead, we're the ones hurting.

If we addressed the issue of accidents caused through rider stupidity and those due to lack of training, and then set about becoming the above average road-users that we seem to enjoy pretending to be by learning to compensate for the inadequacies of others, one day we might just find ourselves in a position of being able to demand changes that would lessen the risks that we face.

[Murray]

Talking of stats - can someone clarify something for me. I believe its been quoted that there were 50 motorcycle deaths in 2010 and 30 in 2003??. What was the number of registered motorbikes for each of the years and was there an actual percentage decrease in deaths per bike when the 2 years are compared.

Just something thats been bugging me when I hear about the incresed this and increased that!

[Katman]

Talking of stats - can someone clarify something for me. I believe its been quoted that there were 50 motorcycle deaths in 2010 and 30 in 2003??. What was the number of registered motorbikes for each of the years and was there an actual percentage decrease in deaths per bike when the 2 years are compared.


Accidents stats per number of registered motorcycles means nothing. More and more motorcyclists are owning multiple bikes these days.

[yachtie10]

Accidents stats per number of registered motorcycles means nothing. More and more motorcyclists are owning multiple bikes these days.

You have quoted this before. Do you have any proof?
I think you are guilty of seeing what you want to see as of course the number of riders have increased and its very bad statistics the media (prompted by government) are using.

[Murray]

Accidents stats per number of registered motorcycles means nothing. More and more motorcyclists are owning multiple bikes these days.

Oh so if we had 1/2 the number of registered car owners and 1/2 the number of registered bike owners we would still have the same number of road deaths a year! silly me. how would people die on the roads if we had zero cars and zero bikes if the stats on the number of registered owners make no difference???

[MSTRS]

Open your eyes John. The problems we are currently facing are due to our poor accident statistics - fact. If we dramatically reversed those stats the powers that be would have no ammo to use on us - fact.

My eyes ARE open. Those 'poor' stats you are so keen on referring to, are almost as low, in terms of injury and death, as they've ever been. The rate has been dropping since the unbelieveable highs of the 70s. Reduced number of bikes accounts for some of that drop in the 90s, coupled with generally better riding behaviours.
Yes, we can do better, but can you tell us how 144 injuries and 5.2 deaths per 10,000 regd bikes in 2008 is worse than 551/17.0 in 1973? In 2008 there were 97000 bikes compared to 77,000 in 1973.
In the intervening years, the numbers have fluctuated up and down, year by year, but on a generally declining plot.

If 30 years of DECLINING stats is enough to have The Prick screaming, do you honestly think that a year or two of 'improvement' will have him back off?
Get real.

[bogan]

Talking of stats - can someone clarify something for me. I believe its been quoted that there were 50 motorcycle deaths in 2010 and 30 in 2003??. What was the number of registered motorbikes for each of the years and was there an actual percentage decrease in deaths per bike when the 2 years are compared.

Just something thats been bugging me when I hear about the incresed this and increased that!

2003 - 56047 (don't think this includes unlicensed vehicles, but not 100%)
2010 - 88201 (not including unlicensed vehicles)
EDIT: actually those two are form different sources, the 2008 figure (same source as 2003) is for 96952

the deaths per licensed bike has remained pretty constant over the last ten years, and the last ten years have been the lowest ever recorded. For these stats and more, please go to http://www.mag-nz.org/campaigns/motorcycle-safety/statistics :msn-wink:

[blackdog]

Accidents stats per number of registered motorcycles means nothing. More and more motorcyclists are owning multiple bikes these days.

How about stats relating to number of licensed riders then.

[Katman]

How about stats relating to number of licensed riders then.

That is the comparison that holds relevance.

[bogan]

That is the comparison that holds relevance.

Won't that make our figures look even better? as I would estimate a higher proportion of bike license holders don't ride anymore, than car license holders who don't drive anymore.

[riffer]

That is the comparison that holds relevance.


Except we can't guarantee that licenced riders ride all the time.

[Katman]

Won't that make our figures look even better? as I would estimate a higher proportion of bike license holders don't ride anymore, than car license holders who don't drive anymore.

What the fuck have car license holders got to do with it?

[The Stranger]

That is the comparison that holds relevance.

Why? Numerous licensed riders haven't ridden in yonks. Sure some of them have decided to get back into riding for various reasons - and this is now showing up in stats.
The number of KM travelled would be more appropriate - and could be calculated aproximately from WOF stats perhaps.

[Katman]

Except we can't guarantee that licenced riders ride all the time.

That's right. It actually needs to be active licensed riders.

[The Stranger]

What the fuck have car license holders got to do with it?

They're the ones causing all the accidents so it stands to reason the more there are the more of us die.

[bogan]

What the fuck have car license holders got to do with it?

Cos it's all relative to how other motorists are doing, you think someone just pulled a number out of their arse and said, this many is acceptable, lets tax em down to that number of deaths? No, they saw bikers crash more often than cars (per rego), and deemed us high risk.


That's right. It actually needs to be active licensed riders.

Now that would be a good measure, bastard to get though, be easier to ask nzta for the numbers of motorcycle owning individuals.

[MSTRS]

2003 - 56047 (don't think this includes unlicensed vehicles, but not 100%)
2010 - 88201 (not including unlicensed vehicles)
EDIT: actually those two are form different sources, the 2008 figure (same source as 2003) is for 96952


2000 - 30 deaths = 5.3/10,000 bikes
2001 - 35 = 6.1/10,000
2002 - 30 = 5.2/10,000
2003 - 30 = 5.0/10,000
2004 - 34 = 5.8/1000
2005 - 35 = 5.8/10,000
2006 - 38 = 5.1/10,000
2007 - 41 = 4.8/10,000
2008 - 50 = 5.2/10,000

I don't have figures for 2009 + 2010, but they are similar.

[blackdog]

Except we can't guarantee that licenced riders ride all the time.

that's, fine.

skews the results in our favour surely (for a change)

[idleidolidyll]

Stoney

It's not about you personally and framing it that way is unhelpful.

You did your best and organized a very good event but the fact is that it did not achieve the goal (axing of the levy increases)

Given that it didn't work, to think that the same kind of action will work is illogical. Something different needs to be done.

As I said, I don't believe Gareth will actually achieve what most of us want as he is a National man working within the system set up by Nick Asswipe Smith.
Any action that works within their framework is controlled by them or preordained to fail or get minimal results. Work outside the framework National sets up and think laterally about how to put pressure on them to make changes.

National has an agenda they refuse to admit but which was obvious to some of us long ago and is becoming so to others now. They want to privatize ACC and making it really expensive is a tactic toward that end. Attacking the tactic ignores their goal and their goal is the reason why we are being ass reamed by the sniveling turd in charge of ACC. He has an agenda that pays more respect to Aussie insurance companies than it does to Kiwi bikers. How can you combat that?

Going for rides will do nothing just as it did with the cheese cutter campaign and your Bikoi.

we have to get more radical

[RiderInBlack]

National has an agenda they refuse to admit but which was obvious to some of us long ago and is becoming so to others now. They want to privatize ACC and making it really expensive is a tactic toward that end. Attacking the tactic ignores their goal and their goal is the Eason why we are being ass reamed by the sniveling turd in charge of ACC. He has an agenda that pays more respect to Aussie insurance companies than it does to Kiwi bikers. How can you combat that?
Going for rides will do nothing just as it did with the cheese cutter campaign and your Bikoi.Exactly, As long as we continue to being sucked in to the "It's all about bikers" BS, we are playing into Tricky Nicky's hands and continue to help him blind-side NZ to the real issue and that it's the Privatization of ACC.

[Brian d marge]

From Memory National have always said they will privatize , government services , New right thinking, etc

And sorry 12000 odd bikers while being voters ain't worth a hill of beans

Grey power on the other hand , only just can get the titanic to change coarse

The answer , ???

Well the more people that clearly understand how it will all impact on their personal freedoms ,,, MAY May be of some use to bikers that means Stop arguing and just vote , for one group , say the greens ( it really doesn't matter who )


In the mean time we may get some token gestures from the new council ,,, Holding My breath .....................

Sod that

Stephen

[Usarka]

I have a serious request for the council......

Make filtering / lane splitting legal. There are many countries where this is currently the case (because we know governments like to look at how other places do it) especially UK / Europe.

Benefits:

Help reduce congestion.
Improve tolerance/attitude towards bikers by legally validating their actions.

[James Deuce]

I have a serious request for the council......

Make filtering / lane splitting legal. There are many countries where this is currently the case (because we know governments like to look at how other places do it) especially UK / Europe.

Benefits:

Help reduce congestion.
Improve tolerance/attitude towards bikers by legally validating their actions.


It's not illegal right now. People just do it wrong.

[Usarka]

It's not illegal right now. People just do it wrong.

It's pseudo-legal. The maneuvor should be recognised independant of the passing while stationary law. (ie remove the "must stay left of lane stuff")

And if "we" bikers don't understand it then sure as shit that car drivers don't.

Most of them think it is illegal, and esp in Auckland a lot of them get very (very very) angry about it. I just think this might be an area we get get better relations with other road users from a minor legislation change and a bit of education.....


At the very least, educate drivers that we are allowed to do it under the current law (while your at it also educate the cops....)

[Katman]

Most of them think it is illegal, and esp in Auckland a lot of them get very (very very) angry about it.

That's probably more to do with the number of times they've had their wing mirrors hit.

[James Deuce]

Not pseudo-legal. Legal. Each lane on a motorway in NZ is its own highway. If you overtake on the right of the vehicle you're passing while indicating, you're fine.

Most people do it wrong. Provided bikes aren't travelling more than 20km/hr faster than the surrounding traffic, I think you'll find 99% of cops don't care. It's the people who leave their indicator on, do 120 km/hr in a 60 km/hr traffic flow, and have their right indicator on while overtaking to the left of a vehicle in the same lane that make life a bit squidgy for other motorcyclists.

[Usarka]

I'd suggest if you take a poll of car drivers asking if they think it is legal it would be a resounding fail......

Just thinking of ways to improve relations between different road users.


That's probably more to do with the number of times they've had their wing mirrors hit.

Probably because we're forced to stay within the lane with our right indicator going. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to filter legally taking advanatage of the space that's available.....

[Katman]

Probably because we're forced to stay within the lane with our right indicator going. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to filter legally taking advanatage of the space that's available.....

I don't believe any motorcyclists seriously adhere to the 'staying within the lane' rule anyway - except maybe when it's a cop they're splitting past.

[James Deuce]

I'd suggest if you take a poll of car drivers asking if they think it is legal it would be a resounding fail......

Just thinking of ways to improve relations between different road users.

Probably because we're forced to stay within the lane with our right indicator going. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to filter legally taking advanatage of the space that's available.....

I know. I'm not arguing with the intent. But given that there are manifold other laws that all drivers/riders are seemingly unaware of I don't have great hops. Even basic safety ones like not crossing the centreline into oncoming traffic get ignored a lot.

[idleidolidyll]

It's not illegal right now. People just do it wrong.

Yep,
From what I've been told and read, lane splitting is OK within the following parameters;

You must not lane split to the left of a vehicle in the same lane, only in the right.
If traffic has stopped or is almost stopped, you can use any line.

The law is one thing; smart riding is another.
Lane splitting on the motorway at speeds double that of the traffic is just plain stupid. Cars won't see you or don't care and will pull out to change lanes regadless of what rights you think you have. You'll get away with it maybe 100 times or more but the first time someone changes lanes in your path; you are dead or maimed.

Your family may have recourse in law but you'll be dead; is it worth the extra 2 minutes?

[MSTRS]

Yep,
From what I've been told and read, lane splitting is OK within the following parameters;

You must not lane split to the left of a vehicle in the same lane, only in the right.
If traffic has stopped or is almost stopped, you can use any line.

The law is one thing; smart riding is another.
Lane splitting on the motorway at speeds double that of the traffic is just plain stupid. Cars won't see you or don't care and will pull out to change lanes regadless of what rights you think you have. You'll get away with it maybe 100 times or more but the first time someone changes lanes in your path; you are dead or maimed.

Your family may have recourse in law but you'll be dead; is it worth the extra 2 minutes?

No. Stopped only. That is considered as 'being parked'. Right on the money otherwise

[avgas]

Probably because we're forced to stay within the lane with our right indicator going. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to filter legally taking advanatage of the space that's available.....
I used to ride home at 200kph @ 2am.
Was nice to do.

Stupid laws preventing us doing nice things.

[bogan]

Exactly, As long as we continue to being sucked in to the "It's all about bikers" BS, we are playing into Tricky Nicky's hands and continue to help him blind-side NZ to the real issue and that it's the Privatization of ACC.

Thing is it's pretty hard to reach everyone else when the media don't give a rats arse about it. We sent a wee bit (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/132506-ACC-a-interesting-read) out to around 20 media's suggest a story, had one out of office auto reply so far. Who knows though, maybe they are just taking some time and doing a quality job of investigative reporting on it...

[Usarka]

I was probably meaning filtering rather than lane splitting, and the point wasn't to make more laws but of educating drivers and making it an accepted practice like overseas.

Obviously a stoopid idea. Next......

[idleidolidyll]

Prediction:

here's what's gonna happen

National will win the next election because most people are paying attention to what they say and not what they are doing and regardless of fairness and party politics; the media is already framing this as Key vs Goff rather than National versus Labour, the Greens, NZ First and all the other parties.
Essentially most Kiwis are suckered by corporate media backing their dog.

John Key has already signalled that he views his re-election as a mandate to do whatever the fuck he wants.
ACC will be privatised, assets will be sold, Kiwi workers will continue to compete against foreigners for jobs and the gap between Aussie wages and Kiwi wages will continue to grow. We will have sold our assets AGAIN for short term gain and in the long run, just like the last times we did it, we will have no long term gain from the sale. In fact we will have to buy back the worst performing parts later on.
National will sell Auckland assets (after all, that's what the Supercity was all about). Aucklanders will face higher costs not lower costs as touted and we will have less to show for it.
Motorcyclists will get fuck all; by the time Gareth Morgan reports back, National will have won or lost the election and as with the three times we have had recommedations suggesting cannabis law reform is smarter than continuing to criminalise people and provide income to gangs, our issues will go back to the drawing board again (in other words we will be fogotten in the lolly scramble after elections).

Welcome to corporate NZ where you are only worth whatever they can pay a third world worker to do and where the 'good of the country' is not the good of the people but the good of huge corporates, mainly foreign.
Free trade is bullshit and its most effective result so far has been to strip first world nations of jobs and the ability to control their own economies. Chicago School of Economics philosophies have failed the USA so smart people should wonder why the hell Key thinks they will work here.
Likewise, the advice of the IMF, World Bank etc is not designed to aid the countries they advise; that advice is designed to strip assets and economies for the benefit of the rich and powerful transnational corporations who populate the IMF and World Bank offices.

I don't expect some of you to accept this, you're still in denial. Anyone who has been self researching rather than relying on the mainstream corporate media (NZ Herald, TV news etc) for their information already knows what I'm saying.

Upshot: National is an authoritarian government and they treat us like children. They will pass whatever legislation they want to suit their backers and to hell with the rest of us despite the bullshit words that come out of their mouths.

You cannot win for bikers if you continue to support National.

[Brian d marge]

Prediction:

here's what's gonna happen

National will win the next election because most people are paying attention to what they say and not what they are doing and regardless of fairness and party politics; the media is already framing this as Key vs Goff rather than National versus Labour, the Greens, NZ First and all the other parties.
Essentially most Kiwis are suckered by corporate media backing their dog.

John Key has already signalled that he views his re-election as a mandate to do whatever the fuck he wants.
ACC will be privatised, assets will be sold, Kiwi workers will continue to compete against foreigners for jobs and the gap between Aussie wages and Kiwi wages will continue to grow. We will have sold our assets AGAIN for short term gain and in the long run, just like the last times we did it, we will have no long term gain from the sale. In fact we will have to buy back the worst performing parts later on.
National will sell Auckland assets (after all, that's what the Supercity was all about). Aucklanders will face higher costs not lower costs as touted and we will have less to show for it.
Motorcyclists will get fuck all; by the time Gareth Morgan reports back, National will have won or lost the election and as with the three times we have had recommedations suggesting cannabis law reform is smarter than continuing to criminalise people and provide income to gangs, our issues will go back to the drawing board again (in other words we will be fogotten in the lolly scramble after elections).

Welcome to corporate NZ where you are only worth whatever they can pay a third world worker to do and where the 'good of the country' is not the good of the people but the good of huge corporates, mainly foreign.
Free trade is bullshit and its most effective result so far has been to strip first world nations of jobs and the ability to control their own economies. Chicago School of Economics philosophies have failed the USA so smart people should wonder why the hell Key thinks they will work here.
Likewise, the advice of the IMF, World Bank etc is not designed to aid the countries they advise; that advice is designed to strip assets and economies for the benefit of the rich and powerful transnational corporations who populate the IMF and World Bank offices.

I don't expect some of you to accept this, you're still in denial. Anyone who has been self researching rather than relying on the mainstream corporate media (NZ Herald, TV news etc) for their information already knows what I'm saying.

Upshot: National is an authoritarian government and they treat us like children. They will pass whatever legislation they want to suit their backers and to hell with the rest of us despite the bullshit words that come out of their mouths.

You cannot win for bikers if you continue to support National.

Sorry little off topic , but in reply the question has to be , how do we live comfortable and at peace in the mess created by the people mentioned above
I bought myself a spinning wheel

Stephen

[yachtie10]

[COLOR=#ff8c00]Upshot: National is an authoritarian government and they treat us like children. They will pass whatever legislation they want to suit their backers and to hell with the rest of us despite the bullshit words that come out of their mouths.


:gob::bash::facepalm::violin::killingme:killingme: killingme:bs::bs::brick::crazy::rofl::rofl::puke:

Pot kettle etc

[p.dath]

I have a serious request for the council......

Make filtering / lane splitting legal. There are many countries where this is currently the case (because we know governments like to look at how other places do it) especially UK / Europe.

Benefits:

Help reduce congestion.
Improve tolerance/attitude towards bikers by legally validating their actions.


Perhaps you would like to clarify what specifically you want made "legal". A good start would be to define what you mean by "lane splitting".

[bogan]

Perhaps you would like to clarify what specifically you want made "legal". A good start would be to define what you mean by "lane splitting".

Allow bikes to pass by moving between two lanes of forward traffic (turning lanes don't count) when the traffic is going slower than ... and the motorcyclists speed is less than ... above the other traffic.

[avgas]

Perhaps you would like to clarify what specifically you want made "legal". A good start would be to define what you mean by "lane splitting".
Flipping the bird while going past.

[Usarka]

Don't forget punching wing mirrors!

[p.dath]

Allow bikes to pass by moving between two lanes of forward traffic (turning lanes don't count) when the traffic is going slower than ... and the motorcyclists speed is less than ... above the other traffic.

Bearing in mind it can easily take 5 years to bring legislation into effect, and that each law change can easily cost a couple of million dollars; do you still feel it is worth the considerable investment in time and the expense of parliament to bring about this change?

And I guess I have one more question - what is the actual problem we are trying to solve? What is actually going wrong that we are considering the spending of a couple of million dollars on (consultants, reports, select committees, parliamentary debate, reviews, etc) trying to solve?

[StoneY]

Lovin the tag cloud abuse
You faggots hiding behind the tag cloud anonimity, what say you say that to my face hmmm?

pathetic little whingers

[MSTRS]

Bearing in mind it can easily take 5 years to bring legislation into effect, and that each law change can easily cost a couple of million dollars; do you still feel it is worth the consideration investment in time and the expense of parliament to bring about this change?


Act of Parliament is NOT required for road rules. The branch of NZTA formerly known as LTSA has authority to make changes on these sorts of issues.

[Usarka]

Bearing in mind it can easily take 5 years to bring legislation into effect, and that each law change can easily cost a couple of million dollars; do you still feel it is worth the consideration investment in time and the expense of parliament to bring about this change?

And I guess I have one more question - what is the actual problem we are trying to solve? What is actually going wrong that we are considering the spending of a couple of million dollars on (consultants, reports, select committees, parliamentary debate, reviews, etc) trying to solve?

Did you read my posts?

My objective was about improving relations with the general public.

My propsal for one way of doing this was make filtering socially acceptable. Sure I can filter legally at the lights, but I know many many car drivers who get very irate when the subject of motorbikes and filtering come up.

Let's use the word legitamise for arguments sake rather than legalise. We're not policy makers or part of the committee, it's not our job to work out the details.

[idleidolidyll]

Lovin the tag cloud abuse
You faggots hiding behind the tag cloud anonimity, what say you say that to my face hmmm?

pathetic little whingers

Well said Stoney

You losers filling the clouds with bullshit, have the integrity to address your concerns, doubts and ideas to the thread or to the man directly: hiding behind cloud tags is for pussies.

[RiderInBlack]

Well said Stoney

You losers filling the clouds with bullshit, have the integrity to address your concerns, doubts and ideas to the thread or to the man directly: hiding behind cloud tags is for pussies.What the f*ck are "Cloud Tags"? Not into the "PM'ing" "Secret Squirl" abuse stuff. IMHO, if ya don't have the balls to be up-front then don't say it at all. I'd rather be "Red Rep'd" for getting up someone's nose with what I say in a Thread, than sulking in the background playing dirty and not at least owning any shit I sling.

[p.dath]

My objective was about improving relations with the general public.

This is a good objective.


My propsal for one way of doing this was make filtering socially acceptable. Sure I can filter legally at the lights, but I know many many car drivers who get very irate when the subject of motorbikes and filtering come up.

Let's use the word legitamise for arguments sake rather than legalise. We're not policy makers or part of the committee, it's not our job to work out the details.

Legislation or regulation won't wont improve relations with the public. Hell, a lot of car drivers would probably prefer the exact opposite - regulate to *prevent* motorcycles lane splitting.

[p.dath]

Act of Parliament is NOT required for road rules. The branch of NZTA formerly known as LTSA has authority to make changes on these sorts of issues.

You are correct. I forgot this is covered by a road rule.

[bogan]

Legislation or regulation won't wont improve relations with the public. Hell, a lot of car drivers would probably prefer the exact opposite - regulate to *prevent* motorcycles lane splitting.

but the ones that get angry now, are those who believe it already is illegal! make it legal and they won't have anything to get angry about, so only a small amount will be...

[StoneY]

Well said Stoney

You losers filling the clouds with bullshit, have the integrity to address your concerns, doubts and ideas to the thread or to the man directly: hiding behind cloud tags is for pussies.

Yeah mate, full credit to you for always abusing me directly to! (jokes bro)
I would rather scrap it out in forum and take my red's and infringments than act like a scurvy riddled bottom feeder.

KB can get pretty heated as we are all so focussed on our own beliefs, however hiding in the tag cloud to call people names is a new low and whoever it is doing it, GROW SOME BALLS

[Maha]

Yeah mate, full credit to you for always abusing me directly to! (jokes bro)
I would rather scrap it out in forum and take my red's and infringments than act like a scurvy riddled bottom feeder.

KB can get pretty heated as we are all so focussed on our own beliefs, however hiding in the tag cloud to call people names is a new low and whoever it is doing it, GROW SOME BALLS

Ask a mod, they can tell you who the taggers, worked for me in the past. Turns out the balls stopped bouncing ages ago.

[idleidolidyll]

:gob::bash::facepalm::violin::killingme:killingme: killingme:bs::bs::brick::crazy::rofl::rofl::puke:

Pot kettle etc

That's a meaningless riposte

I'm not a politician

If you have an intelligent comment or debate i'd be happy to hear it.

[yachtie10]

That's a meaningless riposte

I'm not a politician

If you have an intelligent comment or debate i'd be happy to hear it.

i thought it speaks for itself

Repeat your post and change the word national for labour and you would be as accurate (at least)

Both the main parties have an agenda and also have members who would like more extreme solutions.

you seem to lean to the left and wear red tinted glasses. I lean to the right (marginally) but dont like some of what national have done. but i would like to see an explantion of what labour would have done that would have made a difference to the economy over the last 2 years

[idleidolidyll]

i thought it speaks for itself

Repeat your post and change the word national for labour and you would be as accurate (at least)

Both the main parties have an agenda and also have members who would like more extreme solutions.

you seem to lean to the left and wear red tinted glasses. I lean to the right (marginally) but dont like some of what national have done. but i would like to see an explantion of what labour would have done that would have made a difference to the economy over the last 2 years


note to self and others watching: leaping to conclusions will almost always tend to make dick of self

i don't vote labour and if you lean marginally to the right as you suggest; then that's who you should vote for because the idea that national is centre right is nonsense: labour is centre right and national is far right and getting further each day.

Key continues to blame labour for the world ecomomic crisis; if you're sucked in by that there's no hope for you

back to left right etc; the mainstream media are corporate entities and they are subserviant to advertisers and their owners, they don't offer fair and unbiased comment or opinion. If people base their ideas on what the mainstream media tell them; they are already fucked.

go read www.scoop.co.nz (http://www.scoop.co.nz) to start with but more importantly, to see where NZ's political parties actually sit compared to political parties around the world; go to the Political Compass.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/ (http://www.politicalcompass.org/)

Take the test first (important so that you don't prejudge the results and skew your answers to suit) and see where your beliefs and opinions actually place you and question whether you are supporting the party that actually acts in a manner that would see your world view come to fruition or whether their words don't match their actions and you should be voting elsewhere.

[yachtie10]

not really interested in reading whatever websites suit your opinions.
Just replied as you asked, just to get abuse.

Cant be bothered discussing anything in that way

ps I have travelled the world and spent ime in usa and a few peoples republic and from what i have seen we are way left of most countries i have visited. Ill vote for who has best polocies for the future IMHO

[RiderInBlack]

Political Compass.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/ (http://www.politicalcompass.org/)

Thank for that. Seems Me and Gandhi are in about the same place on the compass.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-7.38&soc=-2.82
http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/axeswithnames.gif I can live with that.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/nz2008.png
But I sit more left than even the Greens :shit: Yet I have shifted my vote as I see the Country Needs at the time voting wise.

[Brian d marge]

Took the test

me and Ghandi are best of mates

Now I WILL buy that spinning machine

Stephen

[idleidolidyll]

Importantly, some of you will have noticed that I have called National 'authoritarian'.

The media play the left / right game continuously but history shows that the biggest threat is authoritarianism.

Authoritarian governments tend to be right wing (Hitler, Pinochet, Bush) but not exclusibvely (Stalin/Mao).

Authoritarian governmets are secretive and will act differently from what they say. They will pass bills in secret or in urgency with little to no debate.

Past studies have shown that National breaks far more of its election promises than Labour and we know that Gerry Brownlea has been given the ultimate power of a dictator uneccisarily in order to sort out the Chch Earthquake. Labour too has passed bills in urgency and is also somewhat secretive but nearly as mjuch as National.

The Political Compass will guide you on that as well.

If you take the test and find you do not fit in where you think you should be; there's a high cjance that you pay more attention to mainstream media propaganda than you do self research to find opposing positions.

[idleidolidyll]

not really interested in reading whatever websites suit your opinions.

exactly; you are therefore not open minded and will refuse to read information that challenges your world view.

Just replied as you asked, just to get abuse.

Cant be bothered discussing anything in that way

ps I have travelled the world and spent ime in usa and a few peoples republic and from what i have seen we are way left of most countries i have visited. Ill vote for who has best polocies for the future IMHO



On the other hand, I'm battered every day by propaganda from the mainstream media and I know it. I actively seek out alterantive opinions on most stories.

I have lived in Asia, Africa, Europe, North America and of course NZ. The home of the brave and the land of the free contains many of the most uninformed and badly informed people on the planet; they live in a state of constant propaganda.

please do continue but keep to the subject if you can and try to argue from a basis of fact. I'm happy to have any discussion but this is Stoineys thread about Gareth Morgan and the Nick Smith 'initiative' set up OBO motorcyclists.

(Stoney, I bracket 'initiative' because IMO it should really be seen as 'snow job')

[Ocean1]

If you take the test and find you do not fit in where you think you should be; there's a high cjance....

... it's because the test is utter drivel. :yes:

[idleidolidyll]

Thank for that. Seems Me and Gandhi are in about the same place on the compass.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-7.38&soc=-2.82
http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/axeswithnames.gif I can live with that.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/nz2008.png
But I sit more left than even the Greens :shit: Yet I have shifted my vote as I see the Country Needs at the time voting wise.


and that's a big problem with the way most 'democracies' are run.

we vote on personality, single issues, the way we always have or the way our parents do (and worship the same gods too!)

if we really wanted change we would boot out BOTH National and Labour but most people are somewhat afraid of what result that might have.

Stoney: any news or progress to enlighten us with?

[idleidolidyll]

... it's because the test is utter drivel. :yes:

no, you obviously found yourself not where you thought you'd be; welcome to the world of propaganda

rather than a fallacy argument as you've posted (appeal to your own authority), please explain why that test is 'utter drivel'

the test is a measure against the actions of political parties around the world as opposed to a test against their words. Obviously the difference between words and action is massive and should make intelligent people question mainstream reporting a little more. Wikileaks is the best thing we've had since Jesus was invented.

[yachtie10]

... it's because the test is utter drivel. :yes:

I caved and did the test
apparently I am Nelson Mandela

IMHO the test is far to simple to have any use to me and I have no idea what propaganda is behind the website or how it comes to its conclusions

[Mom]

I have a concern. I understand and appreciate that all MSL levies collected will be administered by this Gareth Morgan led council without any of it being diverted into paying the expenses of running the council. What I am concerned about though, and despite protestations otherwise, this council will have substantial expenses, I doubt Gareth Morgan is working for lunch money, though am happy to be contradicted. There is also adminstrative expenses, and advertising expenses, and meeting fees, and transport costs and on and on and on...

These expenses are being funded by ACC via what levy? I am picking the motorcycle levy, or at very least the motorvehicle levy. So now we have a levy that we dont actually need, being administered at extra cost to bikers in the long run. What happens to the funding ACC already provide to training providers to subsidise training sessions? Picking that will dry up too.

So now we have a dedicated MSL of $30 per registered motorcycle. Anecdotealy we hear that people are not registering their bikes. The amount expected to be collected if I recall correctly was around 6 million dollars. This has now had to be revised to $2.7m I think Gareth Morgan said last Monday. I would dearly love to find out how much ACC currently spend on the Look out for bikes campaign and the like.

[RiderInBlack]

no, you obviously found yourself not where you thought you'd be; welcome to the world of propaganda
Or like a lot of People, he made up his mind that something is utter drivel without trying it or reading it. Pollies love that sort of thing because it is so much easier to misguide people who only skim the surface.

[idleidolidyll]

I have a concern. I understand and appreciate that all MSL levies collected will be administered by this Gareth Morgan led council without any of it being diverted into paying the expenses of running the council. What I am concerned about though, and despite protestations otherwise, this council will have substantial expenses, I doubt Gareth Morgan is working for lunch money, though am happy to be contradicted. There is also adminstrative expenses, and advertising expenses, and meeting fees, and transport costs and on and on and on...

These expenses are being funded by ACC via what levy? I am picking the motorcycle levy, or at very least the motorvehicle levy. So now we have a levy that we dont actually need, being administered at extra cost to bikers in the long run. What happens to the funding ACC already provide to training providers to subsidise training sessions? Picking that will dry up too.

So now we have a dedicated MSL of $30 per registered motorcycle. Anecdotealy we hear that people are not registering their bikes. The amount expected to be collected if I recall correctly was around 6 million dollars. This has now had to be revised to $2.7m I think Gareth Morgan said last Monday. I would dearly love to find out how much ACC currently spend on the Look out for bikes campaign and the like.

i agree, and that's one of the reasons i reckon $2 million is peanuts and will achieve SFA

[idleidolidyll]

I caved and did the test
apparently I am Nelson Mandela

IMHO the test is far to simple to have any use to me and I have no idea what propaganda is behind the website or how it comes to its conclusions

so read the site

it may be relatively simple but its way better than the media left/right proposition so many people are suckered by

[Mom]

i agree, and that's one of the reasons i reckon $2 million is peanuts and will achieve SFA

And why I get particularly twitchy is the overkill reassurances that no MSL will be spent on admin. No one has even made a fuss about that, well not that I am aware of. It has obviously been decided that objections will be in that direction. As I have said all along, transparency is the key to quell building unrest. Not hollow assurances, repeated over and over and over.

[idleidolidyll]

And why I get particularly twitchy is the overkill reassurances that no MSL will be spent on admin. No one has even made a fuss about that, well not that I am aware of. It has obviously been decided that objections will be in that direction. As I have said all along, transparency is the key to quell building unrest. Not hollow assurances, repeated over and over and over.


ahhh! transparency! Not something National is actually about

I present to you all.....Nick Asswipe Smith

as transparent as a black hole

[SPman]

as transparent as a black hole and spewing off as much radiation and noise......
Ah...the test....where I sit, Ghandi is a bloody authoritarian right winger.....

[Ocean1]

rather than a fallacy argument as you've posted (appeal to your own authority), please explain why that test is 'utter drivel'

In fact the rational is far more compelling than my own opinion in the matter. I simply refer to the certain knowledge that anything you propose is seriously flawed.


I caved and did the test
apparently I am Nelson Mandela

IMHO the test is far to simple to have any use to me and I have no idea what propaganda is behind the website or how it comes to its conclusions

It's old. You can find dozens such "political roadmaps" on teh internets, even one to support ol' oneye's somewhat damp and sticky proclivities.

[idleidolidyll]

and spewing off as much radiation and noise......
Ah...the test....where I sit, Ghandi is a bloody authoritarian right winger.....

having corresponded in the past, i'd have expected nothing less

[idleidolidyll]

In fact the rational is far more compelling than my own opinion in the matter. I simply refer to the certain knowledge that anything you propose is seriously flawed.



It's old. You can find dozens such "political roadmaps" on teh internets, even one to support ol' oneye's somewhat damp and sticky proclivities.

Simple fallacy argument with no tangible evidence or examples: your ramblings therefore become mere hear-say and can be totally ignored as if you were merely a National toady parroting the ir opinion.

Faced with media and politicians who cling to an even more simplistic and irrelevant model, I choose to provide some idea of at least one important axis not generally considered in public: the authoritarian/liberal divide.

You choose to stick with the simplest jingo of left/right while crying that a more accurate system is invalid somehow.

If I'm wrong, please provide us all with a more accurate theory or measurement

[p.dath]

I doubt Gareth Morgan is working for lunch money, though am happy to be contradicted.

As I understand it, no council member is being paid. They are all donating their time.


There is also adminstrative expenses, and advertising expenses, and meeting fees, and transport costs and on and on and on...

These expenses are being funded by ACC via what levy?

I'll *guess*, and say that it is coming out of Governmental departmental funding, like most other departments, as opposed to being funded by the levies. But that is a guess.

If it makes you feel better think of it this way - your paying for it no matter what - either via direct taxation or via some imposed levy - but you'll be paying for it. So I guess the question then becomes how do you want to pay for it?


What happens to the funding ACC already provide to training providers to subsidise training sessions? Picking that will dry up too.

Only time will tell. Don't forget that a lot of the funding the training providers were getting also came from local councils, and not just ACC.

Hey Mom, if your keen, I help out with the free NASS sessions on the North Shore. I have invited ACC and the Auckland Transport Road Safety Coordinator along this Wednesday. Your more than welcome to give us a visit if you like.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/77111-North-Auckland-Street-Skills-NASS?p=1129972416#post1129972416
You could ask them some questions directly if you like - just be friendly :). I'm trying to get them to help us out and be supportive of our motorcycle training.

ps. The motorcycle highway police patrol officers come along to the car park sometimes as well (I asked them to, and have the permission of the Police Road Policing Manager), so we encourage riders to have a registered WOF'd bike.


So now we have a dedicated MSL of $30 per registered motorcycle. Anecdotealy we hear that people are not registering their bikes. The amount expected to be collected if I recall correctly was around 6 million dollars. This has now had to be revised to $2.7m I think Gareth Morgan said last Monday. I would dearly love to find out how much ACC currently spend on the Look out for bikes campaign and the like.

I've considered the issue of non-registered bikes distorting the picture. Its very hard to know what you don't know, and we don't know the size of this rider group.

I believe StoneY is pro "rider" licensing, as opposed to individual bike licensing. But these kinds of changes take a long time. But perhaps if the council can make a positive difference they might be able to effect change.

The per-rider licencing does have a side effect that others may have missed. If ACC decide they need $30m for the motorcycle levies for the year, and there are currently 100,000 bikes, and 50,000 riders, then obviously all those with a single bike will pay a lot more, and all those with lots of bikes will pay a lot less.
Making a fair system is not easy, and will always leave some people disadvantaged.

Personally, I want the original ACC system back ...

[MSTRS]

Personally, I want the original ACC system back ...

That's all you needed to say...and all that needs to be said.

[Katman]

Personally, I want the original ACC system back ...

Then perhaps we need to work on getting society back to one that appreciates what it's given rather than one that looks for every way to rip the system off.

[p.dath]

Then perhaps we need to work on getting society back to one that appreciates what it's given rather than one that looks for every way to rip the system off.

Hmm. Perhaps we need a "successful" recession. Loosing everything you have certainly makes you more appreciative.

[avgas]

Stoney: any news or progress to enlighten us with?

transparency is the key to quell building unrest.
Help us out stoney - we trust you. What Mom said - its only a riot after the quiet.


Repeat your post and change the word national for labour and you would be as accurate (at least)

Both the main parties have an agenda and also have members who would like more extreme solutions.
Pig shit skinks as bad as cow shit.
Politics is shit.
To think anyone's shit don't stink attracts people to one side or the other.

[avgas]

Then perhaps we need to work on getting society back to one that appreciates what it's given rather than one that looks for every way to rip the system off.
You mean like 1986?
12 months later it was worse.

[Katman]

You mean like 1986?
12 months later it was worse.

I'd suggest we were a better society 20 years before that.

[fossil]

I have a concern. I understand and appreciate that all MSL levies collected will be administered by this Gareth Morgan led council without any of it being diverted into paying the expenses of running the council. What I am concerned about though, and despite protestations otherwise, this council will have substantial expenses, I doubt Gareth Morgan is working for lunch money, though am happy to be contradicted. There is also adminstrative expenses, and advertising expenses, and meeting fees, and transport costs and on and on and on...

These expenses are being funded by ACC via what levy? I am picking the motorcycle levy, or at very least the motorvehicle levy. So now we have a levy that we dont actually need, being administered at extra cost to bikers in the long run. What happens to the funding ACC already provide to training providers to subsidise training sessions? Picking that will dry up too.

So now we have a dedicated MSL of $30 per registered motorcycle. Anecdotealy we hear that people are not registering their bikes. The amount expected to be collected if I recall correctly was around 6 million dollars. This has now had to be revised to $2.7m I think Gareth Morgan said last Monday. I would dearly love to find out how much ACC currently spend on the Look out for bikes campaign and the like.

Hi Anne,
You can request information from ACC using the freedom of information act or there is information on the ACC website which answers most of the things you raise.
www.acc.co.nz Then under the "individuals" heading click motorcyclists, you can subscribe to receive updates.

[riffer]

I'd suggest we were a better society 20 years before that.

I wish I knew. Unfortunately I wasn't born until the following year.

[Katman]

I wish I knew. Unfortunately I wasn't born until the following year.

Hey, I'm only guessing. I was only 2 in 1966.

[riffer]

Hey, I'm only guessing. I was only 2 in 1966.


Are you suggesting it was OUR generation that caused the rot mate?

[Katman]

Are you suggesting it was OUR generation that caused the rot mate?

From the day that the original ACC presented it's manifesto New Zealanders learnt ways to use the system. Whether the rot was there beforehand or started with our generation is subject to conjecture.

[Mom]

Hi Anne,
You can request information from ACC using the freedom of information act or there is information on the ACC website which answers most of the things you raise.
www.acc.co.nz Then under the "individuals" heading click motorcyclists, you can subscribe to receive updates.


Thank you for this. In fact I am registered for updates about this from ACC, I have not received any...

I may have to register again.


Hey, I'm only guessing. I was only 2 in 1966.

Another youngster in our midst :innocent:

[PrincessBandit]

Hey, I'm only guessing. I was only 2 in 1966.



Another youngster in our midst :innocent:

And I was only fweeeeee!.

I blame it all on flares, sideburns and platform go-go boots.




Any altruistic system has always been prey to those who want to screw it. Perhaps all those who used to have a sense of propriety and honour got sick of being rooted while those ripping off the system got away with it (or even rewarded for it).

Honour, integrity and pride seem to have lost their way in our society.

[Katman]

Honour, integrity and pride seem to have lost their way in our society.

Ain't that the truth.

[Smifffy]

Ok, so if in, say, 5 years time, there is no appreciable change in the accident stats, what then?

Scrap the MSL?

Increase the levy, in order to fund more of the same?

[StoneY]

Well I have had to edit this post



I will no longer post anything about the MSL on this forum

[riffer]

Thanks for the update dude. Shocking spelling but I'll let you off this time.

Get some bloody rest will ya!

[James Deuce]

Fuck the AA. And the horseless carriage they rode in on.

I think it's great you're being paid. It's the whole point of Quangos and it wasn't fair that you were missing out.

[Big Dave]

Your desication is very dry.

[StoneY]

Your desication is very dry.

Ah ....typo fixed BD thanks for that - sorry all S is next to D and I am seeing 20 fingers hovering over my keyboard.......

Off to bed soon cheers

[Usarka]

Thanks for the post, get some reast!


he seems very sincere in this.

All that tells me is that he is experienced in politics...... Time will tell I guess.

ps - and remember he admits AA's bias and he is there as an AA employee and will have a mandate from them.