Speed cameras don't save lives

[p.dath]

The AA recently sent me the below interview. Basically it is Victoria's top road safety researcher coming out saying that speed cameras do not save lives.

Victoria now has 10 times as many speed cameras as the UK per head of population, but not 1/10 of the fatalities.

They do say that the Victorian government now collects $500m in speed camera fines - more than any other state in Australia.

http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/investigations/8112319/speed-camera-insider

There may be a case for speed cameras in a few limited places, but I think the time has come for them to be phased out. Spend the money on other areas instead.

[Scuba_Steve]

Just reaffirming what we all know, $$$ Money NOT Safety.
Speed cams just rode the already downward trend in fatalities, and the only affect they had on it was slowing the drop in fatalities.

[rwh]

The police spokesman seemed rather out of his depth.

Richard

[baptist]

Good Post mate, at last a guy who has credibility is saying they are nothing but a cash cow:yes: rwh, man you are so right that cop could not even accept the difference between speed and speeding...

Messrs English, Smith and Collins take note will you... oops sorry of course you won't as you will have less money to waste on stupid commitees if you ditch them:facepalm:

[kinger]

Must disagree. not a good post, just the same shit we already know.
Excuse my abruptness, but no one is fuckin surprised. Also, UK statistics don't relate to driving/riding in NZ, so why even bring them into the conversation?
There's many reasons I left UK, and cameras aren't one of 'em.

[Ocean1]

There's many reasons I left UK, and cameras aren't one of 'em.

Just a bonus reason?

You're right, though, the bullshit's been obvious since day one.

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/sideeffects.pdf

[miSTa]

The police spokesman seemed rather out of his depth
Agreed. His answer of "...that's your interpretation..." is a load of BS. A very weak answer at best.

[bogan]

Agreed. His answer of "...that's your interpretation..." is a load of BS. A very weak answer at best.

indeed, that graph was also pretty good. I have to wonder why there are no distraction/reaction time for stopping dist ads in the same style as the speed/stopping dist ones.

[slofox]

The police spokesman seemed rather out of his depth.

Richard

And thick to boot.

[Spearfish]

Speed cameras have never--
caught a vehicle on the wrong side of the road
Caught someone with a warrant to arrest
A stolen vehicle
A drunk or drugged driver
on and on and on

But at least the few yards either side of the camera is relatively safe?

[JMemonic]

Must disagree. not a good post, just the same shit we already know.
Excuse my abruptness, but no one is fuckin surprised. Also, UK statistics don't relate to driving/riding in NZ, so why even bring them into the conversation?
There's many reasons I left UK, and cameras aren't one of 'em.

Neither for that matter do any other countries yet the powers that be often use them as justification all the time for their pointless initiatives that are often little more than revenue gathering.

Much easier to put a camera in a van on the side of the road that actually do something intelligent like offer free, or nearly free training, active policing of sensible policies, effective sentencing of offenders, all too easy really.

[Coldrider]

Good Post mate, at last a guy who has credibility is saying they are nothing but a cash cow:yes: rwh, man you are so right that cop could not even accept the difference between speed and speeding...

Messrs English, Smith and Collins take note will you..
Speed cameras are perfect Police employees, they do as they are told, don't cost much, and won't ever be charged with rape.

[baptist]

Must disagree. not a good post, just the same shit we already know.
Excuse my abruptness, but no one is fuckin surprised.

We may "know it" but it is still nice to hear someone as high up in Aussie Road Safety as him bagging them rather than just another aggrieved rider/driver who can be made out to be "another moaner with an axe to grind because he got a ticket".


Speed cameras have never--
caught a vehicle on the wrong side of the road
Caught someone with a warrant to arrest
A stolen vehicle
A drunk or drugged driver
on and on and on

That is one of my main concerns as well, to much emphasis on speeding infringements and not on getting real cops to tackle serious driving offences (dangerous speeds, boozy drivers etc.)

Just a bonus reason?

You're right, though, the bullshit's been obvious since day one.

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/sideeffects.pdf

Interesting article...

[Grantman_]

Must disagree. not a good post, just the same shit we already know.
Excuse my abruptness, but no one is fuckin surprised.

Uh no... In actual fact it is an excellent post. Having the information from someone in Ian Johnston's position is gold regardless of what you may already know. You can't make ammunition of your opinion, but can make ammunition from stories like this one.

[BoristheBiter]

Uh no... In actual fact it is an excellent post. Having the information from someone in Ian Johnston's position is gold regardless of what you may already know. You can't make ammunition of your opinion, but can make ammunition from stories like this one.

No its just another whining argument from people that get tickets for speeding.
Been done to death on god knows how many threads.

Nothing new.

[Grantman_]

No its just another whining argument from people that get tickets for speeding.
Been done to death on god knows how many threads.

Nothing new.

unlike a whining argument this story caries legitimacy. New or not doesn't matter.

[oldrider]

IMHO "inappropriate" crossing of the centre line and generally failing to occupy your own legal road space is the biggest killer on NZ roads.

Travelling beyond a speed where you can stop safely is probably next but speed in it's self being labelled as the supreme killer on our roads is just bullshit.

The number of speeding infringements issued to so many drivers should tell them that the majority of drivers are telling them it's just bullshit too!

Now that's a statistic that they could use if they really wanted some facts to work on!

[Spearfish]

IMHO "inappropriate" crossing of the centre line and generally failing to occupy your own legal road space is the biggest killer on NZ roads.

Travelling beyond a speed where you can stop safely is probably next

I think those get called black spots removing the driver from being at fault.

[BoristheBiter]

unlike a whining argument this story caries legitimacy. New or not doesn't matter.

Its still a whining argument.
don't speed no ticket, speed get ticket. No matter how anyone spins it thats what it comes down to.

We all know the government line on these things, regardless of who is in power, but still everyone beats the tired old drum crying about getting a ticket and at the end of the day that is all they care about and still there are people on here who are so mind numbingly stupid that they think the police make the laws, and you just can't argue with that level of stupidity.

[Swoop]

speed get ticket. No matter how anyone spins it thats what it comes down to.
Strange. That theory doesn't quite work.
Time & place eh?:blip:

[fuknKIWI]

Speed cameras have never--
caught a vehicle on the wrong side of the road
Caught someone with a warrant to arrest
A stolen vehicle
A drunk or drugged driver
on and on and on

But at least the few yards either side of the camera is relatively safe?

Never is a loaded word be wrong just once & you're wrong in triplicate...
WRONG WRONG WRONG...
I got caught on camera overtaking a Camaro ka-flash...

[Scuba_Steve]

I only just watched da vid, and they're right they be saying what I've been saying all along, fact is fact.
But god people are right, that P.I.G. was fucking useless.

[Latte]

I only just watched da vid, and they're right they be saying what I've been saying all along, fact is fact.
But god people are right, that P.I.G. was fucking useless.

What's P.I.G. ? I see you use it a lot (I know what you are inferring, but what does the acronym stand for).

[Scuba_Steve]

What's P.I.G. ? I see you use it a lot (I know what you are inferring, but what does the acronym stand for).

Police Inforcment Guy

And yes I know how to spell

[Coldrider]

change it to 'Investigation' and no one will look twice.

[swbarnett]

Its still a whining argument.
don't speed no ticket, speed get ticket. No matter how anyone spins it thats what it comes down to.
So what you're saying is that a black man in 1960s America is to blame for the beating they would get if they sat in the white section of the bus?

Why should I be penalised because my assessment of a safe speed disagrees with a limit set by bureaucrats sitting in their ivory towers with no knowledge whatsoever of the circumstances under which my safe speed was chosen?

Just because something is law does not make it right.

What this thread comes down to is that the government, supported by the police, claim that speed cameras save lives. We say otherwise and now we are supported by someone with a serious degree of credibility. I for one am very glad that the OP put this information forward.

[Scuba_Steve]

change it to 'Investigation' and no one will look twice.

yea but then that would imply they investigate.

[Coldrider]

yea but then that would imply they investigate.er sorry, that could be a little confusing.

[Brian d marge]

Its still a whining argument.
don't speed no ticket, speed get ticket. No matter how anyone spins it thats what it comes down to.

We all know the government line on these things, regardless of who is in power, but still everyone beats the tired old drum crying about getting a ticket and at the end of the day that is all they care about and still there are people on here who are so mind numbingly stupid that they think the police make the laws, and you just can't argue with that level of stupidity.
yes there are a few mind numbingly stupid drivers , most aren't . most actually travel at a speed appropriate for the conditions

that could be 120 , or 20

The laws in NZ are outdated , and draconian , reason , Money it IS a good source of revenue

The argument of you break the law you pay is fine IF the laws were appropriate , and well reasoned

Nz motoring laws aren't

If this 80km/hr law is passed , ( this argument has surfaced once or twice ) would you Honestly sit at 80k though those long stretches of roads??? In all honestly , your speed would creep up until your perceived level of safety was reached.

( you can see this in action if you drive for a long time on a motorway then turn off and drive through town ,,, its VERY difficult to stay at 50 , you must watch the speedo )



Stephen

[BoristheBiter]

So what you're saying is that a black man in 1960s America is to blame for the beating they would get if they sat in the white section of the bus?

Why should I be penalised because my assessment of a safe speed disagrees with a limit set by bureaucrats sitting in their ivory towers with no knowledge whatsoever of the circumstances under which my safe speed was chosen?

Just because something is law does not make it right.

What this thread comes down to is that the government, supported by the police, claim that speed cameras save lives. We say otherwise and now we are supported by someone with a serious degree of credibility. I for one am very glad that the OP put this information forward.


yes there are a few mind numbingly stupid drivers , most aren't . most actually travel at a speed appropriate for the conditions

that could be 120 , or 20

The laws in NZ are outdated , and draconian , reason , Money it IS a good source of revenue

The argument of you break the law you pay is fine IF the laws were appropriate , and well reasoned

Nz motoring laws aren't

If this 80km/hr law is passed , ( this argument has surfaced once or twice ) would you Honestly sit at 80k though those long stretches of roads??? In all honestly , your speed would creep up until your perceived level of safety was reached.

( you can see this in action if you drive for a long time on a motorway then turn off and drive through town ,,, its VERY difficult to stay at 50 , you must watch the speedo )



Stephen

Like i said, and you just can't argue with that level of stupidity.

[rastuscat]

Had an argument with a woman recently about the ticket I was writing her. 67 in a 50 km/h area.

She had been travelling in the outside lane (right hand of 2), and was passing a centre island on which were standing 3 or 4 people, including 2 kids. The island was one of those pedestrian refuges, where you can cross to and wait for traffic in the other direction to clear.

The people had crossed the lanes the woman was driving on, and were waiting on the refuge for the traffic in the other direction to clear.

The island is, maybe, 1 to 1.5 metres wide, with no barriers. It has a keep left sign on each end. Basically, 4 people on that refuge at once meant limited space for each of them.

Anyway, using a laser I checked the womans speed at 67 as she was passing within 2 metres of the pedestrians.

I broke my basic rule, in that instead of just writing the ticket, I told her that what she was doing was very unsafe. Wow, did I get a lecture back about revenue collecting, catching burglars, how she was a very safe driver, blah blah blah.

Anyway, my point is, in her 4WD Merivale tractor (Land Rover Freelander) she no doubt felt that what she was doing was perfectly safe. Brilliant sound insulation, fantastic climate air cond, road tyres (the SUV had never been off road), all contributed to her subjective view of safety in her travels. I felt for the people on the island, who had a 2 tonne SUV steaming past them at close proximity.

I guess I am putting this out as an example of how the drivers environment often makes the driver feel safer at speed than she maybe was. Her subjective view of the safety of her speed was significantly different to my view. It was one of those times when I felt that even the 50 km/h limit may have been too high.

What say you all? :Police:

[p.dath]

Its still a whining argument.
don't speed no ticket, speed get ticket. No matter how anyone spins it thats what it comes down to.

The issue is not about ticketing or how fast your are travelling. It's about weather speed cameras have any impact on road fatalities.

And this guy is saying that speed cameras don't impact fatality rates, and for that reason, the continued expenditure on buying and operating the units is not warranted. That money would be better spent on other road safety measures.

[oldrider]

Had an argument with a woman recently about the ticket I was writing her. 67 in a 50 km/h area.

She had been travelling in the outside lane (right hand of 2), and was passing a centre island on which were standing 3 or 4 people, including 2 kids. The island was one of those pedestrian refuges, where you can cross to and wait for traffic in the other direction to clear.

The people had crossed the lanes the woman was driving on, and were waiting on the refuge for the traffic in the other direction to clear.

The island is, maybe, 1 to 1.5 metres wide, with no barriers. It has a keep left sign on each end. Basically, 4 people on that refuge at once meant limited space for each of them.

Anyway, using a laser I checked the womans speed at 67 as she was passing within 2 metres of the pedestrians.

I broke my basic rule, in that instead of just writing the ticket, I told her that what she was doing was very unsafe. Wow, did I get a lecture back about revenue collecting, catching burglars, how she was a very safe driver, blah blah blah.

Anyway, my point is, in her 4WD Merivale tractor (Land Rover Freelander) she no doubt felt that what she was doing was perfectly safe. Brilliant sound insulation, fantastic climate air cond, road tyres (the SUV had never been off road), all contributed to her subjective view of safety in her travels. I felt for the people on the island, who had a 2 tonne SUV steaming past them at close proximity.

I guess I am putting this out as an example of how the drivers environment often makes the driver feel safer at speed than she maybe was. Her subjective view of the safety of her speed was significantly different to my view. It was one of those times when I felt that even the 50 km/h limit may have been too high.

What say you all? :Police:

No problem and you have a job to do but you used your discretion didn't you break Police rules too?

[oldrider]

The issue is not about ticketing or how fast your are travelling. It's about weather speed cameras have any impact on road fatalities.

And this guy is saying that speed cameras don't impact fatality rates, and for that reason, the continued expenditure on buying and operating the units is not warranted. That money would be better spent on other road safety measures.

Cameras have never been about safety and that reports statistics supports that argument.

Won't make any difference to our crowd though they don't believe in any other view but their own or that of Victoria State in Australia!

[p.dath]

Cameras have never been about safety and that reports statistics supports that argument.

Won't make any difference to our crowd though they don't believe in any other view but their own or that of Victoria State in Australia!

I agree that those who make the decisions have an institutionalised view of speed cameras - that they somehow reduce road fatalities.

The question I keep pondering is how do you change the view of someone who has an institutionalised view. They already have the research, so presenting them with facts will make zero difference.

The only thing I can think of is that you would have to inspire them that there is a batter way of saving lives, and money should be used for that instead.

[BoristheBiter]

The question I keep pondering is how do you change the view of someone who has an institutionalised view. They already have the research, so presenting them with facts will make zero difference.

.

A bit like people who speed?? then cry about a ticket???

[Scuba_Steve]

Had an argument with a woman recently about the ticket I was writing her. 67 in a 50 km/h area.

She had been travelling in the outside lane (right hand of 2), and was passing a centre island on which were standing 3 or 4 people, including 2 kids. The island was one of those pedestrian refuges, where you can cross to and wait for traffic in the other direction to clear.

The people had crossed the lanes the woman was driving on, and were waiting on the refuge for the traffic in the other direction to clear.

The island is, maybe, 1 to 1.5 metres wide, with no barriers. It has a keep left sign on each end. Basically, 4 people on that refuge at once meant limited space for each of them.

Anyway, using a laser I checked the womans speed at 67 as she was passing within 2 metres of the pedestrians.

I broke my basic rule, in that instead of just writing the ticket, I told her that what she was doing was very unsafe. Wow, did I get a lecture back about revenue collecting, catching burglars, how she was a very safe driver, blah blah blah.

Anyway, my point is, in her 4WD Merivale tractor (Land Rover Freelander) she no doubt felt that what she was doing was perfectly safe. Brilliant sound insulation, fantastic climate air cond, road tyres (the SUV had never been off road), all contributed to her subjective view of safety in her travels. I felt for the people on the island, who had a 2 tonne SUV steaming past them at close proximity.

I guess I am putting this out as an example of how the drivers environment often makes the driver feel safer at speed than she maybe was. Her subjective view of the safety of her speed was significantly different to my view. It was one of those times when I felt that even the 50 km/h limit may have been too high.

What say you all? :Police:

Think you did well there, I wouldn't mind those things being banned from CBD's or classed as they are, Trucks. Hope you still got your donuts for that one.

[Ocean1]

What say you all? :Police:

You could probably make a case for a lower limit, there. But not a very good one. Wouldn’t work, ticketing people don't change their speed, (you'd already noticed that, eh?). Also, it’s a bit much to expect drivers to deal with speed changes every 100metres or so.

I reckon that beyond a certain point you have to accept that both drivers and pedestrians have behaviours that are not amenable to official admonition. Which leaves you with either accepting whatever casualties that entails or spending a bunch of cash to keep ‘em separate. Gets back to that question again, dunit? The one we’re not allowed an answer to: What’s a life worth? And who gets to pay for it?

[davebullet]

What say you all? :Police:

Problem with people like that is they won't learn. Your ticket is probably water off a ducks back to a Merivale inhabitant, so even ticketing her she STILL wouldn't have learnt.

I recently got pulled over the tailing a police officer in a pursuit. I was at a safe distance and the officer was pulling away. He was pissed off at me and pulled me over. I acknowledged what I did and apologised. No ticket.

I think most officers are in the job to help people in the first instance. I don't think they are bonused on the basis of tickets are they? They are a salaried workforce (?). If they can see someone is not the stereotypical "who gives a fuck" person, the person shows they are taking on board what the officer is saying, the officer will be inclined to use whatever outcome gets the message across. If it's a warning, then it's a job well done.

[JMemonic]

Had an argument with a woman recently about the ticket I was writing her. 67 in a 50 km/h area.

She had been travelling in the outside lane (right hand of 2), and was passing a centre island on which were standing 3 or 4 people, including 2 kids. The island was one of those pedestrian refuges, where you can cross to and wait for traffic in the other direction to clear.

The people had crossed the lanes the woman was driving on, and were waiting on the refuge for the traffic in the other direction to clear.

The island is, maybe, 1 to 1.5 metres wide, with no barriers. It has a keep left sign on each end. Basically, 4 people on that refuge at once meant limited space for each of them.

Anyway, using a laser I checked the womans speed at 67 as she was passing within 2 metres of the pedestrians.

I broke my basic rule, in that instead of just writing the ticket, I told her that what she was doing was very unsafe. Wow, did I get a lecture back about revenue collecting, catching burglars, how she was a very safe driver, blah blah blah.

Anyway, my point is, in her 4WD Merivale tractor (Land Rover Freelander) she no doubt felt that what she was doing was perfectly safe. Brilliant sound insulation, fantastic climate air cond, road tyres (the SUV had never been off road), all contributed to her subjective view of safety in her travels. I felt for the people on the island, who had a 2 tonne SUV steaming past them at close proximity.

I guess I am putting this out as an example of how the drivers environment often makes the driver feel safer at speed than she maybe was. Her subjective view of the safety of her speed was significantly different to my view. It was one of those times when I felt that even the 50 km/h limit may have been too high.

What say you all? :Police:

Ahh rastuscat you have hit a nail on the head, the subjective view of what is safe is down to the individual and that individuals view is skewed towards what is safe for me, a Merivale tractor owner would be far worse in the "me" stakes, a more suitable punishment would have been for her to have to stand in the centre of the safety island you describe for thirty minutes with an appropriate billboard, something like, slow down consider my safety too, but it would never happen.

Anyhow as a society what can we do to improve the subjective view? As above, a more appropriate punishment to the situation, fines don't work, her view has not changed at all, I would lay money on her travelling at the same speed down that road next time as well.

A big step would be better education of drivers for the future, a better graduated driver licence system that requires more training, moving the age for learners licences from age 15 to 17-18 for cars, at 15 you can start on a moped. Targeted campaigns the reward appropriate driver behaviour would be nice to see but hey the system is punishment geared and has the belief that everyone is guilty of something, its just a matter of time before we catch them.

[p.dath]

Had an argument with a woman recently about the ticket I was writing her. 67 in a 50 km/h area
....
I broke my basic rule, in that instead of just writing the ticket, I told her that what she was doing was very unsafe. Wow, did I get a lecture back about revenue collecting, catching burglars, how she was a very safe driver, blah blah blah.

And this is the crux of ticketing - based on the drivers reaction, do you really think the ticket will result in the driver being more situationally aware of the dangers presented?

Not a dig at you - but for me, it reflects that you can not ticket a problem out of existence. That approach just does not work. The veracity of the woman's response shows this.

For me, the time to have resolved the issue was long ago - when that driver was getting their licence, and then through the opportunity of ongoing driver education and improvement.

But we don't offer people the opportunity to have ongoing driver education in NZ. And we don't teach new drivers to be considerate of other road users (which includes pedestrians).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. An environment needs to be created that encourages driver education, and provides a *voluntary* processes for drivers to continually improve their road user education.

For some reason our system thinks you can invest 10 to 20 hours of time, gain a full licence, and never need any further training to drive a machine proven capable of injuring and killing time and time again. :weird:

[Ocean1]

He was pissed off at me and pulled me over. I acknowledged what I did and apologised. No ticket.

I'm left feeling hugely underwhelmed that we're to be held accountable for the various moods of the local constabulary. Even less that I need to apologise for it.

In fact so offensive is the odour emanating from the various attempts at “educating” me that I’ve long since given up even keeping tabs on the latest ways I need to behave in order that I might be deemed acceptable.

Fuckem, if they deem my actions unpalatable then they needed not to lie to me. They needed not to ping me for things I didn’t do and they needed to respect my need to manage my life free from unjustified interference. I’m no longer listening.

[BoristheBiter]

I'm left feeling hugely underwhelmed that we're to be held accountable for the various moods of the local constabulary. Even less that I need to apologise for it.

In fact so offensive is the odour emanating from the various attempts at “educating” me that I’ve long since given up even keeping tabs on the latest ways I need to behave in order that I might be deemed acceptable.

Fuckem, if they deem my actions unpalatable then they needed not to lie to me. They needed not to ping me for things I didn’t do and they needed to respect my need to manage my life free from unjustified interference. I’m no longer listening.

And that statement is why it will never work.
Society is too full of "fuck you i will do what i want" people, and too many of these people can't ride/drive for shit and they are on the road with us.

[Grantman_]

speed cameras have been sold on the representation they reduce the road toll. This reason is apparently the public justification for their existence. If this is proven to be false, what are the officials going to say to the public? If speed cameras are not achieving their public goal they shouldn't exist, regardless of whose is, and who is not, speeding.

As a motorist who has had no problems with traffic police this what I want to know. I don't take kindly to being lied to.

[Ocean1]

too many of these people can't ride/drive for shit and they are on the road with us.

Wana race? :msn-wink:

[Latte]

Wana race? :msn-wink:

..... I've been caught, hook, line, and sinker (I know) ......


You think racing shows how good a rider/driver you are?

[MSTRS]

And that statement is why it will never work.
Society is too full of "fuck you i will do what i want" people, and too many of these people can't ride/drive for shit and they are on the road with us.

So stop issuing fines, and take away their licences instead...
It must be obvious, even to the most moronic of cops etc, that fines don't work. The public 'got that' long ago, and some of them (ocean1 et al) developed their fuck-you attitude because of it.
And a fuck-you attitude is no guide to driving/riding skill either. The 2 are mutually exclusive.

[BoristheBiter]

So stop issuing fines, and take away their licences instead...
It must be obvious, even to the most moronic of cops etc, that fines don't work. The public 'got that' long ago, and some of them (ocean1 et al) developed their fuck-you attitude because of it.
And a fuck-you attitude is no guide to driving/riding skill either. The 2 are mutually exclusive.

No argument here:niceone:

[Swoop]

the SUV had never been off road
How can it? The name implies that it is for "the suburbs", not for driving on anything resembling grass or *gasp* mud!:msn-wink:

[Ocean1]

..... I've been caught, hook, line, and sinker (I know) ......


And well out of your depth.



So stop issuing fines, and take away their licences instead...
It must be obvious, even to the most moronic of cops etc, that fines don't work. The public 'got that' long ago, and some of them (ocean1 et al) developed their fuck-you attitude because of it.
And a fuck-you attitude is no guide to driving/riding skill either. The 2 are mutually exclusive.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I don't in fact have a "fuck you" attitude.

It's a "fuck them" attitude. Where "Them" = the authorities who instigated the current traffic control legislation using justification based on data known to be fallacious. Collected and presented, in fact with that very function in mind.

“Them”. The ones that impose on me costs in terms of time and money for reasons having nothing to do with my behaviour. I already pay many times the cost of any likely imposition on any one of the vast number of government agencies supposed to deal with my supposed transgressions, and every year they invent new ways to blame me for fabricated problems and to charge me for them.

When they stop lying to me and stealing from me I may remember to ask myself if I should respect them.

In the meantime, Fuck’em.

[MSTRS]

Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I don't in fact have a "fuck you" attitude.

It's a "fuck them" attitude. Where "Them" = the authorities who instigated the current traffic control legislation using justification based on data known to be fallacious. Collected and presented, in fact with that very function in mind.

“Them”. The ones that impose on me costs in terms of time and money for reasons having nothing to do with my behaviour. I already pay many times the cost of any likely imposition on any one of the vast number of government agencies supposed to deal with my supposed transgressions, and every year they invent new ways to blame me for fabricated problems and to charge me for them.

When they stop lying to me and stealing from me I may remember to ask myself if I should respect them.

In the meantime, Fuck’em.

:niceone: nah - fuck it :2thumbsup

[p.dath]

So stop issuing fines, and take away their licences instead...

I've given this consideration many times. I keep reflecting on the high number of dis-qualified drivers, and I suspect taking more licences away from people would result in more people driving without a licence.

It's the "she'll be right" attitude we pride ourselves on.

Taking peoples cars away is more likely to have an effect ... but it is a harsh punishment.

[rwh]

So stop issuing fines, and take away their licences instead...
It must be obvious, even to the most moronic of cops etc, that fines don't work. The public 'got that' long ago, and some of them (ocean1 et al) developed their fuck-you attitude because of it.
And a fuck-you attitude is no guide to driving/riding skill either. The 2 are mutually exclusive.

Fines and licence removal are both punishments, not educational.

In both cases, they act as a deterrent by getting people to slow down for fear of being caught, rather than because it's the right thing to do.

I like the suggestion of making the SUV driver stand on the traffic island for 30 minutes, with or without a sign. Or walk over the Rimutakas, or SH16 or wherever the problems are.

Richard

[Spearfish]

Never is a loaded word be wrong just once & you're wrong in triplicate...
WRONG WRONG WRONG...
I got caught on camera overtaking a Camaro ka-flash...

So if I'm wrong in triplicate, it caught you on the wrong side of the road, waiting to be arrested and stealing?

You have been busy.

[Brian d marge]

Like i said, and you just can't argue with that level of stupidity.

So
I'm stupid for questioning the status quo

and you are not for following it

and everything is ok with the current system

Is that what you are saying ???


Thats why NZ is in such a mess, from people like you , well done pat your self on the back and bask in the satisfaction of a job well done

Stephen

[fuknKIWI]

One of Toowoomba's finest:weird:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/fuknKIWI/joshyfuckwit-1.jpg

He did 10 months for this...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/fuknKIWI/0548366900.jpg

[BoristheBiter]

So
I'm stupid for questioning the status quo

and you are not for following it

and everything is ok with the current system

Is that what you are saying ???


Thats why NZ is in such a mess, from people like you , well done pat your self on the back and bask in the satisfaction of a job well done

Stephen

Is that why you don't live here then?

There are many laws in NZ that are outdated they are still the laws of the land whether you think so or not.

I never said that the current system is without flaws but it is what we have at the moment so you have to abide by and crying because you got a ticket just shows how stupid you are. You might think you are a good driver/rider others might think you are the worst they have seen. what about the car/bike you are driving?

Did you understand that or do you want me draw some pretty pictures to help explain??

[Brian d marge]

Is that why you don't live here then?

There are many laws in NZ that are outdated they are still the laws of the land whether you think so or not.

I never said that the current system is without flaws but it is what we have at the moment so you have to abide by and crying because you got a ticket just shows how stupid you are. You might think you are a good driver/rider others might think you are the worst they have seen. what about the car/bike you are driving?

Did you understand that or do you want me draw some pretty pictures to help explain??
To answer you first question
Yes that is exactly why I dont live in NZ , The grass IS greener on the on the side ( but living over seas , still doesnt stop me from trying to stop the rot caused buy the less educated and the never had it so goods

and two speeding tickets in probably 12 maybe 13 years , I have NEVER complained about getting a speeding ticket ( EVER IN ANY OF MY POSTS )

I however , think that the whole structure of NZ public services are set up in a way to make money at the expense of the user ,

while this maybe fine for non important utilities such as transportation . It most certainly in not when it comes to health and education

You paying your ACC?? happy about the increase , are we ?? if it goes up again , will you bail or pay ???

Your " do the crime do the time " is far too simplistic while copied from an American tv show fails to address the point which was originally put up , that speed cameras are ineffective as a deterrent


And yes I would love to see you finger paintings bet you mother is proud how far you have progressed.


Stephen

[rastuscat]

So stop issuing fines, and take away their licences instead...
It must be obvious, even to the most moronic of cops etc, that fines don't work.

Harumph.

The Popos don't write the law. We don't have the ability to remove fines, and we can't just randomly take licences.

Most of us believe you are right, but it's not within our power to change it. The Gubbermint is the only body who can change that legislation.

Harumph.

[MSTRS]

So - if the most moronic cops know that fines don't work, they must also realise that any type of draconian punishment as deterrent doesn't work. 'You lot' must have some better ideas. Where are they?

[rustic101]

The AA recently sent me the below interview. Basically it is Victoria's top road safety researcher coming out saying that speed cameras do not save lives.

Victoria now has 10 times as many speed cameras as the UK per head of population, but not 1/10 of the fatalities.

They do say that the Victorian government now collects $500m in speed camera fines - more than any other state in Australia.

http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/investigations/8112319/speed-camera-insider

There may be a case for speed cameras in a few limited places, but I think the time has come for them to be phased out. Spend the money on other areas instead.

Yet NZ Road Policing want to install 'Average Speed Cameras', with the blessing of AA!!!

[Ocean1]

Yet NZ Road Policing want to install 'Average Speed Cameras', with the blessing of AA!!!

Saw one t'other day. White big-bodied van with two camera pods about 600mm above the roof.

The van itself were about 2200mm high.

I reckon a bit of No10 wire at 2500mm orta do.

[BoristheBiter]

Saw one t'other day. White big-bodied van with two camera pods about 600mm above the roof.

The van itself were about 2200mm high.

I reckon a bit of No10 wire at 2500mm orta do.

Wondered what that new van was, lucky i was in the truck.

[rastuscat]

So - if the most moronic cops know that fines don't work, they must also realise that any type of draconian punishment as deterrent doesn't work. 'You lot' must have some better ideas. Where are they?

Fines work for those who actually pay them, which is the majority of the population. You don't hear about that in the paper, coz it's boring. If I get a ticket, I pay it. As it happens, I haven't had one for a couple of decades, but I've paid my wifes couple of tickets, coz that's what law abiding citizens do.

We've been campaigning for fines to be reduced and demerit points to be the principle deterrent. Annette King promised to do that, but got voted out before she could. Thus far not much has changed.

Fines without points basically mean nothing to people with lots of dosh, and equally little to those who won't pay them.

Demerit points work better, as they penalize everyone the same. They used to be for road safety things, but recently they put 10 demerits on noisy vehicle tickets. Nobody ever was killed of injured by a noisy car. Go figure.

The demerit point system has some glaring anomalies that would need to be fixed before it is properly constructed. e.g. nil demerits for a red light offence, but 10 for a noisy vehicle. Nil for seatbelt offences too. Bizarre. Fail to stop at a stop sign, 20 demerits. Random.

Other ideas include a donut tax, being levied for all infringements witin 1 km of a Dunkin Donut shop. Bt hey, that's just a crazy idea (he says longingly).

So there.

[Ocean1]

So there.

I could live with that. If I got, say 10 decent pingings before I was grounded. And they still only lasted a couple of years.

The real bad bastards would still get cleaned out pretty quick but the accumulation of minor transgressions would still apply an effective brake to the general low quality behaviour.

[Scuba_Steve]

Fines work for those who actually pay them, which is the majority of the population. You don't hear about that in the paper, coz it's boring. If I get a ticket, I pay it. As it happens, I haven't had one for a couple of decades, but I've paid my wifes couple of tickets, coz that's what law abiding citizens do.

We've been campaigning for fines to be reduced and demerit points to be the principle deterrent. Annette King promised to do that, but got voted out before she could. Thus far not much has changed.

Fines without points basically mean nothing to people with lots of dosh, and equally little to those who won't pay them.

Demerit points work better, as they penalize everyone the same. They used to be for road safety things, but recently they put 10 demerits on noisy vehicle tickets. Nobody ever was killed of injured by a noisy car. Go figure.

The demerit point system has some glaring anomalies that would need to be fixed before it is properly constructed. e.g. nil demerits for a red light offence, but 10 for a noisy vehicle. Nil for seatbelt offences too. Bizarre. Fail to stop at a stop sign, 20 demerits. Random.

Other ideas include a donut tax, being levied for all infringements witin 1 km of a Dunkin Donut shop. Bt hey, that's just a crazy idea (he says longingly).

So there.

umm I've been "speeding" since da day I got me licence & I'll be "speeding" 'till the day I die. I used to pay fines & they had NO effect except pissing me off & growing my dislike of the P.I.G.s. Everyone else I know who pays them haven't "slowed down". They DON'T WORK!!! demerits will NOT work either!!! & the problem is NOT the punishment the problem is the law, the law needs to be changed & cameras need to be banned.
But don't worry Rastuscat we will make sure there will always be a way for you to earn your donuts

[rastuscat]

But don't worry Rastuscat we will make sure there will always be a way for you to earn your donuts

Whew, I was worried there for a minute.:bleh:

[rastuscat]

umm I've been "speeding" since da day I got me licence & I'll be "speeding" 'till the day I die. I used to pay fines & they had NO effect except pissing me off & growing my dislike of the P.I.G.s. Everyone else I know who pays them haven't "slowed down". They DON'T WORK!!! demerits will NOT work either!!! & the problem is NOT the punishment the problem is the law, the law needs to be changed & cameras need to be banned.
But don't worry Rastuscat we will make sure there will always be a way for you to earn your donuts

Just out of interest, what would it take to change your behaviour?

[Coldrider]

Just out of interest, what would it take to change your behaviour?LOL a 'wife' has stopped a few I know.

[rastuscat]

Forget I asked. It's obviously another case of SOE causing all the problems.

SomeOne Else.

Steve, you're a good example of the issue. Everyone says that everything else has to change, all but themselves, of course.

[Ocean1]

Forget I asked. It's obviously another case of SOE causing all the problems.

SomeOne Else.

Steve, you're a good example of the issue. Everyone says that everything else has to change, all but themselves, of course.

Allow me.

What's the problem?

[rustic101]

Saw one t'other day. White big-bodied van with two camera pods about 600mm above the roof.

The van itself were about 2200mm high.

I reckon a bit of No10 wire at 2500mm orta do.

No that one (Hyundai/ or VW) is not certified for speed camera/ revenue (haha) work. Its a different asset with a different purpose ;)

[Ocean1]

No that one (Hyundai/ or VW) is not certified for speed camera/ revenue (haha) work. Its a different asset with a different purpose ;)

Was pointed out to me as a trial for the speed averaging trick.

Not?

[rustic101]

Was pointed out to me as a trial for the speed averaging trick.

Not?

No - not yet. The National Manager Road Policing is bloody keen to get them in, however there is some (thank fark) resistance. There will also need to be legislative change required.

I would strongly suggest that the placement will be widely published prior to them being installed/ set up ;)

[Ocean1]

No - not yet. The National Manager Road Policing is bloody keen to get them in, however there is some (thank fark) resistance. There will also need to be legislative change required.

I would strongly suggest that the placement will be widely published prior to them being installed/ set up ;)

Fuckit, I'm guna top it anyway.

I hear it's entirely possible in the UK system to get pinged by them even though the average speed is well under the theoretical fastest possible. This, based on the liklihood that you exceeded the local limit at some point.

Well and truely fuckt.

[rustic101]

Fuckit, I'm guna top it anyway.

I hear it's entirely possible in the UK system to get pinged by them even though the average speed is well under the theoretical fastest possible. This, based on the liklihood that you exceeded the local limit at some point.

Well and truely fuckt.

O well, swings and round abouts lol.

On a separate matter had a mate get off a ticket as there was a large curtain sider in front of him when he got pinged (ok so he was passing it). The point is that the radars use Doppler wavelengths which will always seek out the largest mass, even if targeting a single veh - we (bikes) have a thin mass. Not an excuse to speed but try it on ;) you may just get lucky

[Ocean1]

you may just get lucky

Been to court once with documented facts. Lost.

How interested are they going to be in theory?

[Scuba_Steve]

Just out of interest, what would it take to change your behaviour?

in what way? I drive "fast" but always safe, never drink drive, never excessive speed, always to conditions. I don't own any "safe" vehicles so I know I fuck up I'm fucked. I don't think my "behavior" needs to change, the law needs to become sensible & these dangerous speed scams need to stop.

[rastuscat]

I don't think my "behavior" needs to change, the law needs to become sensible & these dangerous speed scams need to stop.

Just email Newton, he'll amend the law of physics for you.

Then you'll be okay to ride at whatever speed you want and avoid the unpleasant outcomes.

When someone pulls out into your path, you'll be able to invoke the amended Newtons law, and your kinetic energy will cease to be a factor in the outcome of your encounter.

I think you can email him, he at lawofphysics@buggerallchancetochange.com

[swbarnett]

Had an argument with a woman recently about the ticket I was writing her. 67 in a 50 km/h area.

She had been travelling in the outside lane (right hand of 2), and was passing a centre island on which were standing 3 or 4 people, including 2 kids. The island was one of those pedestrian refuges, where you can cross to and wait for traffic in the other direction to clear.

What say you all? :Police:
How alert was the driver during this island pass? I'm guessing that you don't know. An alert driver doing 67 is certainly safer than a distracted driver doing 50. Do you issue tickets to distracted drivers?

[swbarnett]

Fines work for those who actually pay them
How can you tell? Just because someone has not had a ticket in a while does not mean that they've changed their behaviour. Such is the random nature of tickets.


If I get a ticket, I pay it. As it happens, I haven't had one for a couple of decades, but I've paid my wifes couple of tickets, coz that's what law abiding citizens do.
"Law abiding" people don't get tickets in the first place, by definition.

[swbarnett]

Just out of interest, what would it take to change your behaviour?
Who says it needs changing?

Just because you and he disagree on what is "safe" or "acceptable" behaviour doesn't make you right or give you or the government the right to enforce your particular point of view.

[swbarnett]

Just email Newton, he'll amend the law of physics for you.
The problem is that the laws of physics (which I am very familiar with having a physicist for a wife) are only a third of the equation. There is also the law of probability and that of observation.

I've said it before but I think it cannot be said too often.

A distracted driver at or below the speed limit is more dangerous than an alert driver over the limit but driving to the conditions.

[Scuba_Steve]

Just email Newton, he'll amend the law of physics for you.

Then you'll be okay to ride at whatever speed you want and avoid the unpleasant outcomes.

When someone pulls out into your path, you'll be able to invoke the amended Newtons law, and your kinetic energy will cease to be a factor in the outcome of your encounter.

I think you can email him, he at lawofphysics@buggerallchancetochange.com

I don't want or need the laws of physics changed, I want the laws of New Zealand changed, it is those laws that are wrong Not Newtons.
And I never said "any" speed I want, I said I travel at a Safe speed for the conditions, which yes is quite often faster than the posted speed limit but at the same time through the likes of CBD it will be well below the posted speed limit it is for the conditions, NOT to some mostly pointless sign.

[p.dath]

So - if the most moronic cops know that fines don't work, they must also realise that any type of draconian punishment as deterrent doesn't work. 'You lot' must have some better ideas. Where are they?

The 2020 roading strategy is moving towards less fines and more demerits being issued. One problem with fines is their effective impact varies wit your income ($120 fine is more severe on someone who earns $350/week versus someone who earns $1000/week). Demerits affect everyone equally, and will result in a loss of licence for consistent offenders.


Yet NZ Road Policing want to install 'Average Speed Cameras', with the blessing of AA!!!

I email the AA semi-regularly. I've seen a recent communication with the ministers. The AA DO NOT support the promotion of speed being a major cause of issues, and would not support the deployment of additional speed cameras. In fact, they are currently pushing for a reduction in speed cameras - as the AA do not believe they result in a reduction in the injury rates.

I don't know who you talk to at the AA - but it is obviously not the senior policy makers that I speak to.

[MSTRS]

Fines work for those who actually pay them, which is the majority of the population. You don't hear about that in the paper, coz it's boring. If I get a ticket, I pay it. As it happens, I haven't had one for a couple of decades, but I've paid my wifes couple of tickets, coz that's what law abiding citizens do.

You just proved that they don't. Just cos the majority who get them, pay, doesn't mean they start behaving, does it? No fines for a couple of decades? Maybe you've just got cleverer so as to not get caught? Paid your wife's fine/s? Lucky her. But what's law abiding about paying someone-else's fines?




We've been campaigning for fines to be reduced and demerit points to be the principle deterrent. Annette King promised to do that, but got voted out before she could. Thus far not much has changed.

Fines without points basically mean nothing to people with lots of dosh, and equally little to those who won't pay them.

Demerit points work better, as they penalize everyone the same. They used to be for road safety things, but recently they put 10 demerits on noisy vehicle tickets. Nobody ever was killed of injured by a noisy car. Go figure.

The demerit point system has some glaring anomalies that would need to be fixed before it is properly constructed. e.g. nil demerits for a red light offence, but 10 for a noisy vehicle. Nil for seatbelt offences too. Bizarre. Fail to stop at a stop sign, 20 demerits. Random.



Demerits are prolly best.

Here's a suggestion....
Fine for non-consequential offences. Like noisy exhaust, no reg, parked facing the wrong way, no number plate light...etc
Demerits for safety related offences. Rate to be determined. But with proviso to increase for repeats of the same offence. IE - 10pts for 20kph over. 20pts for 30 over. BUT get caught speeding when you have unexpired points for speeding, double for the new offence.
No WOF? 10 points and go get a new wof. But if your vehicle fails on a real safety issue (bald tyre, poor brakes, loose steering...etc, not a windscreen chip in the wrong place, poorly aligned headlight, speedo not working...etc) then points double.
And if caught driving while disq - then straight to lock-up. One week inside. No bullshit extra fine, etc.
Oh - and no donuts for cops on duty. All that sugar is bad for your concentration.

[cowboyz]

If I get a ticket, I pay it. As it happens, I haven't had one for a couple of decades, but I've paid my wifes couple of tickets, coz that's what law abiding citizens do.

funny!

So from a cop perpective you are saying that it is possible for law abiding citizens to get tickets??

[rastuscat]

Sssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh...........the wife's listening.

[Berries]

The AA DO NOT support the promotion of speed being a major cause of issues, and would not support the deployment of additional speed cameras. In fact, they are currently pushing for a reduction in speed cameras - as the AA do not believe they result in a reduction in the injury rates.
Funny that, I used to have dealings with the local AA branch through work,and they were all drivers, ie in to their cars as much as we are riders. Any time discussion came up about speed cameras they were often on the different side of the fence to the Police.

[kinger]

.......if your vehicle fails on a real safety issue (bald tyre, poor brakes, loose steering...etc, not a windscreen chip in the wrong place, poorly aligned headlight,,,,,,.

Wouldn't you consider being dazzled in heavy rain by an oncoming poorly aligned headlight a safety issue?

[Gremlin]

No that one (Hyundai/ or VW) is not certified for speed camera/ revenue (haha) work. Its a different asset with a different purpose ;)
Go awn, give the whole truth. Found this link in a previous thread: http://www.3news.co.nz/New-crime-fighting-tech-raises-privacy-concerns/tabid/423/articleID/166858/Default.aspx Those vans are capable of checking a lot of vehicle plates, and if the owners/cars are flagged, there are units with the van to stop the car.

ratuscat... its an interesting one (changing everything but yourself etc). I've had my share of demerits, misplaced the license once... Has it changed me? To a degree, yes.. but really, its the fear of getting nailed again, that stops me. *touch wood* haven't had anything in the 3 or so years since. Around town, yes, much more careful, especially during the day, school times etc. Night around town, might speed a little as there is simply nothing around. Most of the time its speed limit +10.

Out in the country, the only thing stopping me from travelling at a higher cruising speed are the highway patrol. Travel the backroads (as in, the ones with very little traffic), speed goes up a bit.

Guess I'm the typical kiwi that thinks I'm reasonably good... :eek:

[Voltaire]

Road Safety Thru the Ages:

whats with this driving on the left only...?

Whats with Stop signs and Give way signs...?

Traffic lights they are worse than stop and give way signs...will it never end...?

Radar.... now they are using military weapons to catch us...

Helicopter patrols ( NSW 1980s') strewth its like being in 'Nam on the Hume Hwy these days.

Hidden speed cameras....thats not fair...its just revenue gathering....

Timing you between tool booths...( France 1990's) and instant fine...

the future:

GPS trackers that automatically debit your account when you speed...2010's...?

Fines if your vehicle rego is on on hold and your speedo does not reflect this.....

Remote speed contol of vehicles.

:eek:

When ever you gain something, you loose something.

[Azzman]

I agree for the most part speed cameras don't save live's. I have read half of this thread but not all so excuse me if this has been said before.
Speed cameras don't cost money...they make huge amounts of it, so what's the point in taking them away?
Use the money for roads or driver education, that would be my first choice, but hey use it to reduce my rates bill if you like because that will be a saving for me that's for sure!
Laws and speed cameras are here to stay so instead of whingeing why not just adjust...let someone else pay.
And FFS stop fucking hassling people who drive 4wd without taking them off road...its their choice if that makes them happy so be it, you're riding a motorcycle or driving a V8 for your own reasons and they might not be because you want to save the planet. And no I don't drive a 4wd! I ride an off road motorcycle and its not for hearding cows, but it doesn't make it wrong. People drive vehicles for there own reasons, just because it has 4wd doesnt mean u have to drive off-road. Shit my car has a cigarette lighter...I don't smoke!

[MSTRS]

Wouldn't you consider being dazzled in heavy rain by an oncoming poorly aligned headlight a safety issue?

That would...but a headlight can be pointing down and fail.



And FFS stop fucking hassling people who drive 4wd without taking them off road...

We would - if they actually learned how to drive...

[Scuba_Steve]

I agree for the most part speed cameras don't save live's. I have read half of this thread but not all so excuse me if this has been said before.
Speed cameras don't cost money...they make huge amounts of it, so what's the point in taking them away?
Use the money for roads or driver education, that would be my first choice, but hey use it to reduce my rates bill if you like because that will be a saving for me that's for sure!
Laws and speed cameras are here to stay so instead of whingeing why not just adjust...let someone else pay.
And FFS stop fucking hassling people who drive 4wd without taking them off road...its their choice if that makes them happy so be it, you're riding a motorcycle or driving a V8 for your own reasons and they might not be because you want to save the planet. And no I don't drive a 4wd! I ride an off road motorcycle and its not for hearding cows, but it doesn't make it wrong. People drive vehicles for there own reasons, just because it has 4wd doesnt mean u have to drive off-road. Shit my car has a cigarette lighter...I don't smoke!

The point of removing the cams is they are a scam & make the roads more dangerous than they need to be also the Govt is never gonna give up they're cash cow easily AA have been trying to get them to put the money back into the roads since da day they were introduced 10yrs later any of that money going to roading?

As for the 4WD is not so much the vehicle itself its more the attitude that comes with alot of them "I'm in my safe cage, so I don't need to know how to drive, bigger vehicles get right of way, right?" Go watch some school drop-offs/pick-ups they can be a bloody dangerous place. However I have found they are not the worst 'type' of vehicle on the road seems that trophy is taken out by people movers.

[Ocean1]

Those vans are capable of checking a lot of vehicle plates, and if the owners/cars are flagged, there are units with the van to stop the car.
:

"innocent citizens have nothing to fear"

I must be guilty of somat...

[BoristheBiter]

The point of removing the cams is they are a scam & make the roads more dangerous than they need to be also the Govt is never gonna give up they're cash cow easily AA have been trying to get them to put the money back into the roads since da day they were introduced 10yrs later any of that money going to roading?

As for the 4WD is not so much the vehicle itself its more the attitude that comes with alot of them "I'm in my safe cage, so I don't need to know how to drive, bigger vehicles get right of way, right?" Go watch some school drop-offs/pick-ups they can be a bloody dangerous place. However I have found they are not the worst 'type' of vehicle on the road seems that trophy is taken out by people movers.

The only way to get rid of the cameras is to make them cost money. so no tickets, no money, Now how do you do that?

As for 4x4 and people movers, i agree that they show some of the worst driving habits around. They must subscribe to the scuba_steve driving method of the law is an arse i will drive how i like because i am the greatest.

[Scuba_Steve]

The only way to get rid of the cameras is to make them cost money. so no tickets, no money, Now how do you do that?

As for 4x4 and people movers, i agree that they show some of the worst driving habits around. They must subscribe to the scuba_steve driving method of the law is an arse i will drive how i like because i am the greatest.

you are soo far off the track its just not funny anymore. You seem brainwashed to hell, I have a problem with scams yes, I think everybody should have a problem with scams. If cams became unprofitable they would just change the scam. & it doesn't change the fact they are dangerous.

But since you want to follow the law regardless of how stupid, unsafe or impractical I'll help you out a bit just so you don't get caught out.
Never cross the road on a diagonal, you must always cross at right angles to the pavement.
If the red man is showing at a crossing regardless of if there are vehicles or not, you must not cross ever.
(Not sure if this is still law but better to be safe than sorry right) Always carry 5 pounds on you at all time if on the street it is(/was?) a jail-able offence not to.
(again not sure if still law but again better safe than sorry right) Always have a bucket of water at the top of every flight of stairs.
& since you listen to the "speed" propaganda so closely, do you remember "1 in 4 dads is a child abuser" are you a dad? your 1 in 4...

[BoristheBiter]

you are soo far off the track its just not funny anymore. You seem brainwashed to hell, I have a problem with scams yes, I think everybody should have a problem with scams. If cams became unprofitable they would just change the scam. & it doesn't change the fact they are dangerous.
Only in you twisted fucked up mind.


But since you want to follow the law regardless of how stupid, unsafe or impractical I'll help you out a bit just so you don't get caught out.
Never cross the road on a diagonal, you must always cross at right angles to the pavement.
If the red man is showing at a crossing regardless of if there are vehicles or not, you must not cross ever.
(Not sure if this is still law but better to be safe than sorry right) Always carry 5 pounds on you at all time if on the street it is(/was?) a jail-able offence not to.
(again not sure if still law but again better safe than sorry right) Always have a bucket of water at the top of every flight of stairs.
& since you listen to the "speed" propaganda so closely, do you remember "1 in 4 dads is a child abuser" are you a dad? your 1 in 4...

I never said i follow the law, find a post where i said i do.
You are the one that is so far off the mark and you always will as you have a attitude of fuck everyone else i will do what i want. You wonder why the driving in NZ is as bad as it is take a good long look in the mirror and you will see the answer.

[Scuba_Steve]

I never said i follow the law, find a post where i said i do.
You are the one that is so far off the mark and you always will as you have a attitude of fuck everyone else i will do what i want. You wonder why the driving in NZ is as bad as it is take a good long look in the mirror and you will see the answer.

& where da fuck do u get that from?, I have said I will take some risks involving ONLY ME, I have NEVER said "fuck everyone else" or "I don't consider any other road user". You have fabricated that in your own mind :weird:

[BoristheBiter]

& where da fuck do u get that from?, I have said I will take some risks involving ONLY ME, I have NEVER said "fuck everyone else" or "I don't consider any other road user". You have fabricated that in your own mind :weird:

Because you think the law is wrong you will break it? yes or no?

[Scuba_Steve]

Because you think the law is wrong you will break it? yes or no?

Speed, yes I drive/ride at a safe speed not a legal one, crossing the road yes I will cross at a diagonal & on occasions will cross when the red man says not to. If they are still in law I do not have a bucket of water @ the top of my stairs nor do I carry 5 pounds on me at all times with plastic I usually don't have any cash on me at all most times. But nowhere, nohow, noway does that mean I don't consider other road users or have a "fuck you" attitude to them.

[BoristheBiter]

Speed, yes I drive/ride at a safe speed not a legal one, crossing the road yes I will cross at a diagonal & on occasions will cross when the red man says not to. If they are still in law I do not have a bucket of water @ the top of my stairs nor do I carry 5 pounds on me at all times with plastic I usually don't have any cash on me at all most times. But nowhere, nohow, noway does that mean I don't consider other road users or have a "fuck you" attitude to them.

But your perception of a safe speed will differ from everyone else's.
The laws protects us (suppose to) from the people who's skill is well below their own idea of how good they think they are.

A cop driving past doesn't know if you are Rossie or johnny dipply. they see someone over the limit and ticket them accordingly.

And 5 pounds of what??

[Scuba_Steve]

But your perception of a safe speed will differ from everyone else's.
The laws protects us (suppose to) from the people who's skill is well below their own idea of how good they think they are.

A cop driving past doesn't know if you are Rossie or johnny dipply. they see someone over the limit and ticket them accordingly.

And 5 pounds of what??

a "johnny dipply" shouldn't be on the road in the 1st place & is a failure of our licensing system, a signed speed does not make anything or anyone safe. Someone travelling the speed limit or under is way more dangerous than someone travelling at a safe speed.

And its 5 pounds of cash,

[Mully Clown]

The Speed Camera Lottery - The Fun Theory


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iynzHWwJXaA

[BoristheBiter]

a "johnny dipply" shouldn't be on the road in the 1st place & is a failure of our licensing system, a signed speed does not make anything or anyone safe. Someone travelling the speed limit or under is way more dangerous than someone travelling at a safe speed.

And its 5 pounds of cash,

Sorry your logic is too good for me.
So let me get this right.
A driver/rider doing 100 along a straight is more dangerous than someone doing 200?
A driver/rider doing 65 around a 65 corner is more dangerous than someone going 100?

look I'm not saying that the current speed laws are correct and never have done but if it makes the johnny dipply's stay on their side of the road (not that it does) then why is that so bad?

Unfortunately laws are for everyone so the have to into account everyone even the muppets and as we all know the few will fuck it up for everyone.

[Scuba_Steve]

Sorry your logic is too good for me.
So let me get this right.
A driver/rider doing 100 along a straight is more dangerous than someone doing 200?
A driver/rider doing 65 around a 65 corner is more dangerous than someone going 100?

look I'm not saying that the current speed laws are correct and never have done but if it makes the johnny dipply's stay on their side of the road (not that it does) then why is that so bad?

Unfortunately laws are for everyone so the have to into account everyone even the muppets and as we all know the few will fuck it up for everyone.

your taking it well out of proportion but yes it could be true dependant on the road, as the slower people are more likely to look at the scenery or their speedo rather than the road causing a distraction which is NZ'ds biggest road killer.
If you are riding "properly" by legal standards your are expected to have your eyes OFF the road 25% of the time (yes quarter of all time on the road you should not be watching it), is this safe?

[BoristheBiter]

your taking it well out of proportion but yes it could be true dependant on the road, as the slower people are more likely to look at the scenery or their speedo rather than the road causing a distraction which is NZ'ds biggest road killer.
If you are riding "properly" by legal standards your are expected to have your eyes OFF the road 25% of the time (yes quarter of all time on the road you should not be watching it), is this safe?

See this is where all arguments (on both sides) falls over as like you said it "could be".

You could come round a corner happily at 100 and the next time hit gravel.
You have more time to react if your going slower and also if you are going slower you have more time to see the problem and avoid it.

We should ride with the most likely outcome at any given time:
Cop looking you don't speed why? you are most likely to get a ticket.
Slow down in rain why? bad visibility, bad traction.

The problem is some don't.

[swbarnett]

A cop driving past doesn't know if you are Rossie or johnny dipply.
Which is exactly the point. They are not qualified to judge another's driving.

[swbarnett]

Unfortunately laws are for everyone so the have to into account everyone even the muppets and as we all know the few will fuck it up for everyone.
So, if there is one muppet on the road that's not capable of driving at more than 20kph does that mean that we all have to stay at 20 or below?

There will always be varying degrees of competence. A system that does not recognise this penalises those that bother to learn how to drive and make the effort to stay alert at all times (or don't drive when they're not) i.e. the system we have at the moment actually punishes good driving.

[BoristheBiter]

Which is exactly the point. They are not qualified to judge another's driving.

That is why we have laws that they follow you break them you get a ticket.
How hard is that to follow?:weird:


So, if there is one muppet on the road that's not capable of driving at more than 20kph does that mean that we all have to stay at 20 or below?

No that is a licence issue and a whole new thread.

There will always be varying degrees of competence. A system that does not recognise this penalises those that bother to learn how to drive and make the effort to stay alert at all times (or don't drive when they're not) i.e. the system we have at the moment actually punishes good driving.

That's life, show me what is fair, my parents have worked all their life and get the same pension as someone that been on the dole.

the road rules aren't that bad and an open speed limit is 100 that's not that slow.

[Brian d marge]

If the laws were designed a little better , then driving /riding would be better .. trying to cut wood with a blunt saw can be done, but it would be better if the saw was sharp

Stephen

[scumdog]

a "johnny dipply" shouldn't be on the road in the 1st place & is a failure of our licensing system, a signed speed does not make anything or anyone safe. Someone travelling the speed limit or under is way more dangerous than someone travelling at a safe speed.




So as you flash by at a fair clip and the cop pulls you over he can judge in the 15 minutes of road-side track that you are NOT 'johnny dippy'???

And you'd accept his judgement on that?

And feel it would be fair for all others to accept that judgement of them too?

Oh-kaaay....

[Scuba_Steve]

So as you flash by at a fair clip and the cop pulls you over he can judge in the 15 minutes of road-side track that you are NOT 'johnny dippy'???

And you'd accept his judgement on that?

And feel it would be fair for all others to accept that judgement of them too?

Oh-kaaay....

Yes-ish
No
No

It's not hard to tell a good driver from a bad one & the bad ones usually reside at the extremes, they are either well excessive speed & will weave in & out of traffic (your scam does attack these ones & Holden is a common offender here), or well below the limit & have no fucking clue how to use the road (your scam does not attack these ones & they are usually left alone to endanger lives, People movers & old people are usually the offenders here). But a cop should NOT be judging anyone it is not their job & they are not permitted to do so, their job is to accuse & prove Not to judge, jury or execute.

[scumdog]

Yes-ish
No
No

It's not hard to tell a good driver from a bad one & the bad ones usually reside at the extremes, they are either well excessive speed & will weave in & out of traffic (your scam does attack these ones & Holden is a common offender here), or well below the limit & have no fucking clue how to use the road (your scam does not attack these ones & they are usually left alone to endanger lives, People movers & old people are usually the offenders here). But a cop should NOT be judging anyone it is not their job & they are not permitted to do so, their job is to accuse & prove Not to judge, jury or execute.

Well, far out, what can I say?

Nothing, - except I'm alarmed at the prospect of sharing the road with somebody who has a mind-set like that...sheeesh...

We're NOT expected to be allowed to judge anybody re their driving - but we're expected to pick the 'bad drivers' (tm) and deal to them regardless???:wacko::crazy::blink:

[Gremlin]

We're NOT expected to be allowed to judge anybody re their driving - but we're expected to pick the 'bad drivers' (tm) and deal to them regardless???:wacko::crazy::blink:
Well yeah... I thought you guys had osmosys to help you? No? You're normal?

Whatever was he thinking :weird:

[swbarnett]

That is why we have laws that they follow you break them you get a ticket.
How hard is that to follow?:weird:
That depends on your personality type. Some, like you, are only too happy to be told what to do and tow someone else's line. You don't want to think for yourself. The rest of us require a reason to follow someone else's instructions. We need to understand why that instruction is given and when the stated reason does not stack up we will, quite rightly, ignore it.

Life is about living, not just existing. If the law interferes with my ability to live my life as I see fit and does not help anyone else do likewise it will get no respect from me.

Think about when you were at school. Remember when the teacher held everyone back simply because the trangressor could not be identified? Punishing the entire class for one person's wrong doing only creates bitterness. It does not solve anything.


That's life, show me what is fair, my parents have worked all their life and get the same pension as someone that been on the dole.
No, life is not fair. I learnt that a long time ago. That does not mean that I have to sit back and take whatever is thrown at me. We have the right and the duty to rail against any form of oppression, no matter how small.


the road rules aren't that bad and an open speed limit is 100 that's not that slow.
I agree. They could be a lot worse. However, it is this kind of thinking that allows governments to put the citezins it is supposed to serve under ever increasing levels of oppression. If a law does not make sense it needs to be either amended until it does or removed entirely. If a government refuses to do this then the government itself must be removed and replaced with one that will.

We have it good in NZ, too good. People are too scared of losing what freedom we have to complain about the little bits we are losing. Because of this we lose more and more freedom a little at a time. Future generations will wonder why their grandparents didn't stop the slide when they had the chance.

[BoristheBiter]

That depends on your personality type. Some, like you, are only too happy to be told what to do and tow someone else's line. You don't want to think for yourself. The rest of us require a reason to follow someone else's instructions. We need to understand why that instruction is given and when the stated reason does not stack up we will, quite rightly, ignore it.

Life is about living, not just existing. If the law interferes with my ability to live my life as I see fit and does not help anyone else do likewise it will get no respect from me.

Think about when you were at school. Remember when the teacher held everyone back simply because the trangressor could not be identified? Punishing the entire class for one person's wrong doing only creates bitterness. It does not solve anything.


No, life is not fair. I learnt that a long time ago. That does not mean that I have to sit back and take whatever is thrown at me. We have the right and the duty to rail against any form of oppression, no matter how small.


I agree. They could be a lot worse. However, it is this kind of thinking that allows governments to put the citezins it is supposed to serve under ever increasing levels of oppression. If a law does not make sense it needs to be either amended until it does or removed entirely. If a government refuses to do this then the government itself must be removed and replaced with one that will.

We have it good in NZ, too good. People are too scared of losing what freedom we have to complain about the little bits we are losing. Because of this we lose more and more freedom a little at a time. Future generations will wonder why their grandparents didn't stop the slide when they had the chance.

I am not getting into this argument again.
I think you are wrong, you think i am wrong and we will just leave it there.
Have a good weekend.

[swbarnett]

I am not getting into this argument again.
I think you are wrong, you think i am wrong and we will just leave it there.
Have a good weekend.
Appreciate the sentiment. I don't like getting in to this argument either.

The trouble is that those on your side of the argument are well suited by the status quo. Those on my side are not.

Ah, well. No point flogging a dead horse.

Have a good weekend. Enjoy the roads while you can.

[BoristheBiter]

Appreciate the sentiment. I don't like getting in to this argument either.

The trouble is that those on your side of the argument are well suited by the status quo. Those on my side are not.

Ah, well. No point flogging a dead horse.

Have a good weekend. Enjoy the roads while you can.

I think the biggest problem i have with all of it is i don't agree with the current laws, fines or quality of or roads.
I vote in who i think will make a difference and have realized in 40 years no on will.

I now just ride where i will have fun and save those speeds for the track.
I haven't given in, I just know that sitting here crying about a ticket is not going to make it go away.

The sun is out i'm off for a ride.

[Scuba_Steve]

Well, far out, what can I say?

Nothing, - except I'm alarmed at the prospect of sharing the road with somebody who has a mind-set like that...sheeesh...

We're NOT expected to be allowed to judge anybody re their driving - but we're expected to pick the 'bad drivers' (tm) and deal to them regardless???:wacko::crazy::blink:

You should know what I mean, we pay judges & juries to do the judging job, your job is to put them before said people & proof they're guilt. Picking out bad drivers is not hard it doesn't require ESP, but it does require a little intelligence, but then maybee this is where da police have trouble??? From what I've seen of Manawatu cops this could well be da case if the rest of NZ'ds cops are the same.

[swbarnett]

I think the biggest problem i have with all of it is i don't agree with the current laws, fines or quality of or roads.
I vote in who i think will make a difference and have realized in 40 years no on will.
Couldn't agree more. No politician can change things. The change has to come from the people.


I now just ride where i will have fun and save those speeds for the track.
I haven't given in, I just know that sitting here crying about a ticket is not going to make it go away.
Seems we have more in common than I previously thought.

I don't winge if I get a ticket. I know the current laws and if I break them it's my choice. I don't blame the cop for enforcing them. That's their choice and they're within their rights to do so.

If the currnet laws were as bad as they're ever going to get I wouldn't be as worried. What worries me is where things are going in the not too distant future


The sun is out i'm off for a ride.
Sounds like a damn good idea. I wish I could. Still waiting on a gasket for my clutch.

[scumdog]

Sounds like a damn good idea. I wish I could. Still waiting on a gasket for my clutch.


normajeane and I were lucky - our bikes go!

So off to the Catlins we went, wanted to see how the T-Sport went with a new front tyre, good ride but man, was it blowing or what!

Met a movie crew at the Cafe @ Owaka, a couple of the rode (Harleys of course!) so we had a yarn with them while having our long black & some carrot cake and then buggered off home again, not a ticket garnered, no bins, just a nice ride.

About to soak outside in our 'bush-bath' and quaf a nice wine...

So where were we???

[BoristheBiter]

Sounds like a damn good idea. I wish I could. Still waiting on a gasket for my clutch.

Had a fantastic ride, only a couple of :Police: What gets me is i'm still met with people that want to be on my side of the road in corners, the worst being the bike that was overtaking and made me have to change my line. lucky for me i had seen him before i had turned in.

I was so mad. 2sec earlier or if i was going a little quicker it might have been a different story.

O well live to ride another day.

[rwh]

Just a comment re breaking laws that we think should be different.

Recently, copyright law was changed so you could copy your CDs onto your mp3 player or whatever. This change did not apply to copying DVDs onto a portable video player - ie it applied to audio, but not video.

The reason for this was that 'people don't do that much'.

In other words, it seems to be accepted practice to change laws if they are mostly being broken - ie they aren't accepted by the people.

So there's an argument that perhaps people should defend their tickets in cases where 'everybody does it', and maybe the laws will be changed. Probably need a good lawyer to argue that though.

Richard

[scumdog]

J
So there's an argument that perhaps people should defend their tickets in cases where 'everybody does it', and maybe the laws will be changed.

Richard


And the same with wife-beating and...

[yachtie10]

And the same with wife-beating and...

Are you suggesting wife beating is common? or is it just with trolls

[swbarnett]

And the same with wife-beating and...
I am pretty sure that this does not come under the heading of "everybody does it" (I could be wrong, hope not).

It is, however, against the "live your own life as long as it doesn't get in the way of others living theirs" principle, driving fast (above the speed limit) while driving to the conditions is not.