Exactly how far out of touch...

[Ocean1]

...is this jerk.

"We've got to stop New Zealand becoming a country where the rich are getting richer and the poor are poorer."

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8705911/goff-to-focus-on-economic-growth/

This, from those responsible for destroying thousands of jobs in New Zealand.

Unbelievable.

[phill-k]

...is this jerk.

"We've got to stop New Zealand becoming a country where the rich are getting richer and the poor are poorer."

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8705911/goff-to-focus-on-economic-growth/

This, from those responsible for destroying thousands of jobs in New Zealand.

Unbelievable.

Almost as big a jerk as Keys response - where does he think the money for his tax cut will come from, keys response the overseas pixies, funny that did key fund his tax cut you know the one where 50% of the dollar value of that cut went to the top 12% of the income earners - his rich mates, who probably also lent him the money as well from somewhere else, or are we already borrowing 250million a week to cover his gift to the boys. At least Goff's efforts will be sheered equally by dollar value.

While you consider this pray tell me what Key has actually done for the vast majority, what has he done to increase employment, what has he done to kick start the NZ economy, besides his cycle track

[Latte]

While you consider this pray tell me what Key has actually done for the vast majority, what has he done to increase employment, what has he done to kick start the NZ economy, besides his cycle track

He kept labour out of office for a start.:jerry:

[Elysium]

Don't worry guys, when Winston gets back into Parliament all our problems will go away.

[Ocean1]

tax cut you know the one where 50% of the dollar value of that cut went to the top 12% of the income earners

You mean the people who were paying more than everyone else in the first place? The ones that still do?

Those ones?

[rainman]

Don't worry guys, when Winston gets back into Parliament all our problems will go away.

...perhaps to be replaced by a different set?

Actually, in a way I hope Winnie does get back in. He adds a dash of comedic style that might get me reading Hansard again. Pity we can't have Cullen back too, he was quite witty. The current lot are boring as a boring thing.

[rainman]

You mean the people who were paying more than everyone else in the first place? The ones that still do?

Those ones?

Ah, a flat taxer.

Pray tell, which (developed and vaguely civilised) countries don't have a progressive tax system?

[Ocean1]

Ah, a flat taxer.

Yup. Flat one-off annual cost.

What? you want money based on how hard I work?


Pray tell, which (developed and vaguely civilised) countries don't have a progressive tax system?

All of them.

[Mully]

Yay, a political thread. Where's Skyryder gone??

Not that Phil Goff will get anywhere near the top of the Beehive anyway.

[Hitcher]

I'd like to see a taxation system where you get 1 vote for every $10,000 tax you pay. If you're not a taxpayer i.e. a beneficiary whose income comes entirely from other taxpayers, then you don't get a vote. Why should we have a system that allows takers to take more by giving them the ability to vote for political parties that support and perpetuate that ethos? My enhanced system would actually provide an incentive for people to pay more tax, particularly if your total contribution was close to a $10,000 trigger point that gained you one more vote.

[Latte]

I'd like to see a taxation system where you get 1 vote for every $10,000 tax you pay. If you're not a taxpayer i.e. a beneficiary whose income comes entirely from other taxpayers, then you don't get a vote. Why should we have a system that allows takers to take more by giving them the ability to vote for political parties that support and perpetuate that ethos? My enhanced system would actually provide an incentive for people to pay more tax, particularly if your total contribution was close to a $10,000 trigger point that gained you one more vote.

Sounds good, as long as I can trade my votes for cash , but politics shoudln't be about money, right......... right?

[R6_kid]

You mean the people who were paying more than everyone else in the first place? The ones that still do?

Those ones?

The ones who earn more, and spend more and therefore get taxed more.

All these 'poor' people can be rich if they want, just that most of them lack the motivation to seek the knowledge on how to get out of the holes they are in. Whats the point in taxing the people who are out there creating jobs and generating wealth for themselves and the country?

Everyone benefits from the $5000 no tax threshold (its $6k in Australia) but the thing is that those that 'benefit' from it - i.e those at the bottom end - will probably use it to get into more debt to buy things they don't need and continue the cycle of "poor me, make my life easier".

I much prefer the reduction or removal of GST on things such as educational items, healthy food and other day to day items that will directly help those most affected from low incomes - children.

[Spearfish]

Don't worry guys, when Winston gets back into Parliament all our problems will go away.

I know the average age of bikers is supposed to be increasing but not as far as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_rinse_brigade and <cite>http://www.depend.com.au/</cite> ...?!?

[Smifffy]

I'd like to see a taxation system where you get 1 vote for every $10,000 tax you pay. If you're not a taxpayer i.e. a beneficiary whose income comes entirely from other taxpayers, then you don't get a vote. Why should we have a system that allows takers to take more by giving them the ability to vote for political parties that support and perpetuate that ethos? My enhanced system would actually provide an incentive for people to pay more tax, particularly if your total contribution was close to a $10,000 trigger point that gained you one more vote.

Sounds a little bit too much like feudal Europe for my taste.

I also shudder to think what the country would be like when in days of boom, the like of Petrecivic et al would be calling the shots in Parliament.

No thanks.

[Hitcher]

Sounds good, as long as I can trade my votes for cash , but politics shoudln't be about money, right......... right?

Why would you want to trade your votes for cash? Politics should be about deciding what services a government provides for citizens and to what level. Politicians should consult with voters about that and then be guided by the wishes of a majority. When was the last time any political party asked you how much tax you should pay and what you'd like it spent on?

[Smifffy]

Sounds a little bit too much like feudal Europe for my taste.

I also shudder to think what the country would be like when in days of boom, the like of Petrecivic et al would be calling the shots in Parliament.

No thanks.

Even though I would probably have more votes than anyone in my street, but probably less votes than anyone in your street.

[Smifffy]

Why would you want to trade your votes for cash? Politics should be about deciding what services a government provides for citizens and to what level. Politicians should consult with voters about that and then be guided by the wishes of a majority. When was the last time any political party asked you how much tax you should pay and what you'd like it spent on?


Voting only seems to encourage them.

[Latte]

Why would you want to trade your votes for cash? Politics should be about deciding what services a government provides for citizens and to what level. Politicians should consult with voters about that and then be guided by the wishes of a majority. When was the last time any political party asked you how much tax you should pay and what you'd like it spent on?

From memory the top 8% tax payers pay more tax than the rest of the country combined, with a system that ties votes to tax paid (your idea) they would also have more voting power than the rest of the country combined.

What would be the chances of people in the same socio-economic bracket (rich) voting for the same people?.

Ergo my votes would be useless, mayas well by a new Ducati each year instead of piss my votes against a wall.

Thats why I'd want to trade my votes for cash.

[steve_t]

I'd like to see a taxation system where you get 1 vote for every $10,000 tax you pay. If you're not a taxpayer i.e. a beneficiary whose income comes entirely from other taxpayers, then you don't get a vote. Why should we have a system that allows takers to take more by giving them the ability to vote for political parties that support and perpetuate that ethos? My enhanced system would actually provide an incentive for people to pay more tax, particularly if your total contribution was close to a $10,000 trigger point that gained you one more vote.

Hitcher for PM!

Didn't it used to be that you had to own land/property to be entitled to vote? In saying that, if that became the way the Presbyterian Church and Tainui would be a massive majority here in the Waikato...

[Smifffy]

From memory the top 8% tax payers pay more tax than the rest of the country combined, with a system that ties votes to tax paid (your idea) they would also have more voting power than the rest of the country combined.

What would be the chances of people in the same socio-economic bracket (rich) voting for the same people?.

Ergo my votes would be useless, mayas well by a new Ducati each year instead of piss my votes against a wall.

Thats why I'd want to trade my votes for cash.

But surely the business round table led "coalition" would let the rest of us eat cake?

[Smifffy]

Hitcher for PM!

Didn't it used to be that you had to own land/property to be entitled to vote? In saying that, if that became the way the Presbyterian Church and Tainui would be a massive majority here in the Waikato...

Yes, just like in feudal era Europe.

[Latte]

But surely the business round table led "coalition" would let the rest of us eat cake?

Oh I'm sure they realise the benefit in keeping the workforce placated :D Although I'm more of a savory guy than sweet, pies and sausage rolls.

[Ocean1]

I'd like to see a taxation system where you get 1 vote for every $10,000 tax you pay.


Sounds a little bit too much like feudal Europe for my taste.

Problem with that? You do realise that serfdom paid zero tax? That the full weight of society’s wider costs were born by the aristocracy?


No thanks.

And you uppity fuckin’ surfs got bugger all say in that?

[Smifffy]

Problem with that? You do realise that serfdom paid zero tax? That the full weight of society’s wider costs were born by the aristocracy?



And you uppity fuckin’ surfs got bugger all say in that?

So look for me in the peasant revolt.

[Ocean1]

So look for me in the peasant revolt.

:laugh: Well you're ugly enough.


You'll be gentle with that pitchfork, eh? :chase:

[Smifffy]

:laugh: Well you're ugly enough.

Very true.


You'll be gentle with that pitchfork, eh? :chase:


I always preferred the flaming torch.

[mashman]

er, er, er nah fuck it :)

[steve_t]

er, er, er nah fuck it :)

Are you feeling OK? :bleh:

[mashman]

Are you feeling OK? :bleh:

:rofl: just had a shower and can't be arsed pissing in the wind :)

[rainman]

What? you want money based on how hard I work?

In a word, yes - mainly because life and the economy are more complicated than the cartoon reality you are drawing on here. Sure hard work is good and bludging is bad - but you are excluding a heap of other factors that influence wealth, work, opportunity, and ability. As I suspect you know - because, I suspect, you are not that much of an idiot.


All of them.

Must be such a burden for you living in a undeveloped country like NZ. When do you leave for a more enlightened spot? Like, maybe (let me check the list... US, no... UK, no... Western Europe, no....) Kazakhstan?


I'd like to see a taxation system where you get 1 vote for every $10,000 tax you pay.

I see you're having a bad bout of ferkinidiotness. Get well soon!

[Grumph]

[QUOTE=Ocean1;1129967207]Problem with that? You do realise that serfdom paid zero tax? That the full weight of society’s wider costs were born by the aristocracy?

And they reserved what medical care that was available for themselves....and education was a priviledge confined to the wealthy.

Relax mate, we're going down that path again now, won't be long before your Nat mates sell off the schools and hospitals.

Good luck convincing them you're "one of them" - after all you presumably ride a bike so fit the "underclass" profile.

[Clockwork]

Personally, I don't have a problem with Mr Goff's suggestion, even if it probably will cost me a few dollars a week, just so long as the tax break isn't extended to beneficiaries. (I don't consider Super annuitants to be beneficiaries.)

[phill-k]

So John Key comes out and says Goff's tax ideas are fiscally irresponsible, and will align us from an overseas debt / GDP ratio alongside Spain Portugal and Ireland.

Can someone enlighten me what changed in NZ's fiscal position that Key could give his mates a large tax cut and it was fiscally responsible but 9 months later Goff's ideas are not.

I voted for the Guy and hoped he was going to bring a new era to NZ but this is just the same old same old.

edit: Just remembered its election year, John was paying back his supporters, and now has nothing more to give so is attacking Goff rather than getting on with the job. I look forward to Keys election year promises, going to be hard to justify anything now without labour quoting his own words.

[Swoop]

I wonder about the taxpayer forking out money on state houses for "the poor". With all of the disused military bases around, surely there are a few barrack blocks going spare?

Could save the country a lot of money while adding impetus for people to get away from the WINZ gravy-train lifestyle.

[Fatt Max]

Don't worry guys, when Winston gets back into Parliament all our problems will go away.

Yeah, he was great in WWII was old Winston. Sorted them Germans out good and proper. Did a lot to promote beaches as well.

Mind you, he must be getting on a bit now but it would be great to see him back

[Scuba_Steve]

I wonder about the taxpayer forking out money on state houses for "the poor". With all of the disused military bases around, surely there are a few barrack blocks going spare?

Could save the country a lot of money while adding impetus for people to get away from the WINZ gravy-train lifestyle.

Im sure there's some "security" reason why we can't reuse those buildings, god forbid the Govt did anything sensible

[rainman]

...the WINZ gravy-train lifestyle.

Have you lived this "gravy-train lifestyle" for any length of time, or are you just talking out of your arse?

[MSTRS]

From memory the top 8% tax payers pay more tax than the rest of the country combined,...

I can't believe no-one (else) spotted this little gem. Have another read and understand what's subtly NOT said.

[Banditbandit]

While you consider this pray tell me what Key has actually done for the vast majority

LIke the good father he is, he's smiled at us every day and made us feel good ...

[Banditbandit]

Yup. Flat one-off annual cost.

What? you want money based on how hard I work?





Well ??? Don't you ??? Want money based on how hard you work, that is ...

[Delerium]

I wonder about the taxpayer forking out money on state houses for "the poor". With all of the disused military bases around, surely there are a few barrack blocks going spare?

Could save the country a lot of money while adding impetus for people to get away from the WINZ gravy-train lifestyle.


I can answer this. The defence housing isnt up to the minimum standard required by housing NZ. So the members of the defence force who work hard and often in harsh environments get to live in conditions that are deemed not up to the standard needed for the bludgers.

Thats a bloody embarassing situation.

[Banditbandit]

I'd like to see a taxation system where you get 1 vote for every $10,000 tax you pay. If you're not a taxpayer i.e. a beneficiary whose income comes entirely from other taxpayers, then you don't get a vote. Why should we have a system that allows takers to take more by giving them the ability to vote for political parties that support and perpetuate that ethos? My enhanced system would actually provide an incentive for people to pay more tax, particularly if your total contribution was close to a $10,000 trigger point that gained you one more vote.

And when you are no longer an earner and tax-payer? When you go on Government super and become a beneficiary ??? No votes for you then ...

[Banditbandit]

Problem with that? You do realise that serfdom paid zero tax? That the full weight of society’s wider costs were born by the aristocracy?




Only patly true ... EVERYTHING the serfs created went to the nobles ... apart from essentials to stay alive ... and the nobles were paid first - serfs got to live only if they produced a surplus ...

So that was the local tax ... paid to the nobles ... that became the noble's income .. which was taxed ....

[SMOKEU]

And when you are no longer an earner and tax-payer? When you go on Government supper adn become a beneficiary ??? No votes for you then ...

Or the dole.

[Banditbandit]

er, er, er nah fuck it :)

I'm with him ... out of this one ...

[avgas]

Well ??? Don't you ??? Want money based on how hard you work, that is ...
Even a leach takes a set quota from its victim. The leach does not get proportionally bigger if your a body builder.
Govt doesn't like to follow this rule.

[riffer]

I can't believe no-one (else) spotted this little gem. Have another read and understand what's subtly NOT said.

You mean that the top 8% of taxpayers EARN more than everyone else combined?

[MSTRS]

You mean that the top 8% of taxpayers EARN more than everyone else combined?

:facepalm:
He said the top 8% of taxpayers PAY more than...etc. True.

You cannot say that for the top 8% of EARNERS...

[Ocean1]

You cannot say that for the top 8% of EARNERS...

So they didn't earn the money upon which they paid that tax?

Whereas the 92% of the rest did?

Including the beneficiaries of such largesse?


Jeez, you can't claim we orta seen that one coming, what from sooooo far out in left field, there.

[imdying]

And when you are no longer an earner and tax-payer? When you go on Government super and become a beneficiary ??? No votes for you then ...Both of those groups pay tax, but I get your point and agree with it. I'm sure thousands of housewives would like to burn hitcher.

[mashman]

or are we already borrowing 250million a week to cover his gift to the boys.

last news report I saw, they quoted that we're up to 300 mil per week...

[riffer]

So they didn't earn the money upon which they paid that tax?

Whereas the 92% of the rest did?

Including the beneficiaries of such largesse?


Jeez, you can't claim we orta seen that one coming, what from sooooo far out in left field, there.


No I think what John's trying to say is that the top tax payers aren't necessarily the top earners.

[Ocean1]

Both of those groups pay tax, but I get your point and agree with it. I'm sure thousands of housewives would like to burn hitcher.

Meh. Never mind the vote, we orta never have given 'em shoes.

[Ocean1]

No I think what John's trying to say is that the top tax payers aren't necessarily the top earners.

Then he orta use different words.

He's right, but I suspect not as right as he believes.

[MSTRS]

No I think what John's trying to say is that the top tax payers aren't necessarily the top earners.

That is exactly what I'm saying.
The waged and salaried get taxed at source and therefore 'pay their share'.
Who can say the same for those like, say, Michael Hill (and no, I'm not suggesting he is like that) who can arrange their income affairs to look like they earn WAY less than they really do.

[Hitcher]

I'm sure thousands of housewives would like to burn hitcher.

If by "housewives" you are referring to that endangered species of home-based, non-income-earning females, then if their non-beneficiary-earning husbands are paying more than $10,000 in tax they could use one of his votes.

[shrub]

Sounds a little bit too much like feudal Europe for my taste.

I also shudder to think what the country would be like when in days of boom, the like of Petrecivic et al would be calling the shots in Parliament.

No thanks.

But we're moving back into a feudal system where corporate giants are becoming more powerful than governments, and people are willingly seeking to transfer more and more control to a decreasing number of corporate entities. And these corporate overlords will use their power and influence to ensure that the citizenry have to purchase services from them (at a profit) instead of purchasig those services from the government with taxes. It's called privatisation, and John Key is planning it now.

[mashman]

But we're moving back into a feudal system where corporate giants are becoming more powerful than governments, and people are willingly seeking to transfer more and more control to a decreasing number of corporate entities. And these corporate overlords will use their power and influence to ensure that the citizenry have to purchase services from them (at a profit) instead of purchasig those services from the government with taxes. It's called privatisation, and John Key is planning it now.

isn't that called a Plutocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy)

[shrub]

isn't that called a Plutocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy)

It is, and plutocracy has a lot in common with neo-feudalism to the point where they can mean much the same thing. I remember reading something by one of the 20th century political phiosophers (I thing it was either Arendt or Haseler, but I'm not sure) argued that human society was reverting to a form of feudalism based less on the mediaeval concept of military and hereditory power but on accruded economic power, and that we are in the final days of democracy.

Are you familar with Michel's iron law of oligarchy?

[Swoop]

Im sure there's some "security" reason why we can't reuse those buildings, god forbid the Govt did anything sensible
What security reasons would there be on a disused military base?

I can answer this. The defence housing isnt up to the minimum standard required by housing NZ. So the members of the defence force who work hard and often in harsh environments get to live in conditions that are deemed not up to the standard needed for the bludgers.
See above. Bases that the military have moved out of (quite a few around) could be used to put a roof (in whatever condition it was left in) over some heads.

[Scuba_Steve]

What security reasons would there be on a disused military base?


Sorry sarcasm doesn't come through to well in text, but the comment was not a serious one more a poke at the kind of excuses your likely to hear from Govt.

[imdying]

If I were homeless, I'd live on a base if I had to. Beats getting rained on, and I bet the parties and community spirit could be excellent if nurtured by the right people.

Sure it'd suck living in an old shit hole, but my place isn't that flash, and I don't resent those 'living on the hill'.

[mashman]

It is, and plutocracy has a lot in common with neo-feudalism to the point where they can mean much the same thing. I remember reading something by one of the 20th century political phiosophers (I thing it was either Arendt or Haseler, but I'm not sure) argued that human society was reverting to a form of feudalism based less on the mediaeval concept of military and hereditory power but on accruded economic power, and that we are in the final days of democracy.

Are you familar with Michel's iron law of oligarchy?

I wouldn't say familiar with it, but what I do "know" is that it's closer to a feudal system than a plutocracy, by definition anyway, so can see why you say we're going that way.

[simpy1]

I'd like to see a taxation system where you get 1 vote for every $10,000 tax you pay.

Yes, only the rich should have any influence. That way, we can keep poor people out of voting and in poverty forever. Genius!

I can't believe people on here think a flat tax rate is fair!?? Let me put it this way - someone working full time on minimum wage would spend 100% of their income on necessities. Someone on $100k would spend the same amount ($26.5k) on necessities, and the rest on a) luxuries and b) investments. (I'm ignoring tax here for simplicity)

If someone working full time on a low wage never gets a chance to invest any of it, how are they ever going to get themselves out of the hole? When you have a progressive tax system, it gives a helping hand to those who need it (and still work just as hard), and takes extra from those who don't need it (it would otherwise go on luxury items, or further investments which are sensible but not a necessity).

It's not perfect but jeez, I think some of you need to realise that amongst all the "bludger!" panic and "nanny state" ranting, there are a lot of people working full time and struggling to make ends meet. It's not all about economics, some of this is about creating a society that we all want to be a part of. If Australia, the most racist country on earth, or the USA, with a 3 million-strong prison population, are your idea of good societies, you need to think again.

[SPman]

This, from those responsible for destroying thousands of jobs in New Zealand.That would be the Nats?
I wonder about the taxpayer forking out money on state houses for "the poor". With all of the disused military bases around, surely there are a few barrack blocks going spare?Well, they're doing that up the road from us for the "boat people" - mind you,it's going to cost $300mill because the place is so run down, they even paid the army guys hardship money to be stationed there!
You do realise that State houses were partly responsible for creating the middle class in NZ, by helping out those with crap housing, giving them a secure base and enabling a lot of them to further their aspirations by working in a stable society and improving their lot. Now, of course, it is more fashionable to denigrate everyone who has less than you (in terms of work ability, situation, education or just character) and lump them all in with the 5-10% of bludger/lazy/totally incompetent you get in EVERY society and play the politics of envy or greed (I haven't got it - why should they). If State houses are being built, obviously, a lot of people on here would seem to prefer a tin shack with a well - not a house built to current standards - as long as they don't have to pay for it - as long as they don't have to pay for anything - although those same people are quite happy to accept everything that society does give them - which makes them as bad as the "bludgers" they always whine on about!
Pah!
should have stuck to
er, er, er nah fuck it :)

[Hitcher]

Yes, only the rich should have any influence. That way, we can keep poor people out of voting and in poverty forever. Genius!


The have-nots need tangible incentives to improve their lot, rather than soaking up increasing amounts of taxpayer dollars and getting voting rights to maintain that position.

[mashman]

obviously, a lot of people on here would seem to prefer a tin shack with a well

have you tried it? true though, I shoulda stuck with fuck it :)

[Smifffy]

Only patly true ... EVERYTHING the serfs created went to the nobles ... apart from essentials to stay alive ... and the nobles were paid first - serfs got to live only if they produced a surplus ...

So that was the local tax ... paid to the nobles ... that became the noble's income .. which was taxed ....

Exactly right.

[Smifffy]

So John Key comes out and says Goff's tax ideas are fiscally irresponsible, and will align us from an overseas debt / GDP ratio alongside Spain Portugal and Ireland.

Can someone enlighten me what changed in NZ's fiscal position that Key could give his mates a large tax cut and it was fiscally responsible but 9 months later Goff's ideas are not.

I voted for the Guy and hoped he was going to bring a new era to NZ but this is just the same old same old.

edit: Just remembered its election year, John was paying back his supporters, and now has nothing more to give so is attacking Goff rather than getting on with the job. I look forward to Keys election year promises, going to be hard to justify anything now without labour quoting his own words.

I think the worst thing about Key's speech was the fact that he said the single biggest issue facing the country is the economy.

I strongly disagree.

The economy does what the global economy does, and every party has enjoyed surpluses and suffered setbacks at some time or another.

IMO, the single biggest issue facing NZ is this huge freaking divide in the social structure, which most commentators on here have already alluded to.

There are vast numbers of the populace content to simply plug into the system, switch off and leech from the workforce and the SME owners.

There are also not quite so vast numbers at the other end of the spectrum, who seem to be able to plug into the system (even from offshore) and leech from the workforce and the SME owners.

The problem is that anybody that tries to fix it will be arseholed out ASAP. The other problem is that currently, it seems that popular wisdom is that to reign in one set of leeches TPTB must pander to the other set of leeches.

[Ocean1]

you need to think again.

Did it occur to you that we may be more intimately familliar with who pays what and who doesn't than you?

And I'm very much afraid it is all about economics, that's what defines your ability to earn whatever you do. Building and maintaining a good society is an entirely different field of endevour.

It's about value. You can work hard and earn very little or rather a lot more, depending on whether the world wants what you make / do. Failing to work smart is as big a problem as failing to work hard.

Now, who's problem is that?

[puddytat]

Yes, only the rich should have any influence. That way, we can keep poor people out of voting and in poverty forever. Genius!

I can't believe people on here think a flat tax rate is fair!?? Let me put it this way - someone working full time on minimum wage would spend 100% of their income on necessities. Someone on $100k would spend the same amount ($26.5k) on necessities, and the rest on a) luxuries and b) investments. (I'm ignoring tax here for simplicity)

If someone working full time on a low wage never gets a chance to invest any of it, how are they ever going to get themselves out of the hole? When you have a progressive tax system, it gives a helping hand to those who need it (and still work just as hard), and takes extra from those who don't need it (it would otherwise go on luxury items, or further investments which are sensible but not a necessity).

It's not perfect but jeez, I think some of you need to realise that amongst all the "bludger!" panic and "nanny state" ranting, there are a lot of people working full time and struggling to make ends meet. It's not all about economics, some of this is about creating a society that we all want to be a part of. If Australia, the most racist country on earth, or the USA, with a 3 million-strong prison population, are your idea of good societies, you need to think again.

My "post of the day":niceone:
It has to be about Moral value, not monetary.

[Headbanger]

Yes, only the rich should have any influence. That way, we can keep poor people out of voting and in poverty forever. Genius!


Fuck yes.

And if they dare raise their heads out of the muck....shoot the bloody bastards.

[Headbanger]

Only taxpayers should get the vote.Its our hard work and our money that is paying for the entire shit-show, Im fucked if I should go without so I can pay some useless thick cunt to have it instead. Fuck em. Every single item in these fuckers houses is paid for by us. The KFC they live on, the booze, the cancer sticks, the fists they beat their children with.....

And tough shit if your a women, its not about your genitals, No tax, no vote.

[Winston001]

And I'm very much afraid it is all about economics, that's what defines your ability to earn whatever you do. Building and maintaining a good society is an entirely different field of endeavour.

It's about value. You can work hard and earn very little or rather a lot more, depending on whether the world wants what you make / do. Failing to work smart is as big a problem as failing to work hard.



Yes. The core issue is simple. Each of us needs to do something which enables us to survive - and prosper. Working hard isn't enough if the result is minimal. There are about 4.5 billion people who live that reality every day.

We can argue about taxation and government support until the cows come home but if our nation cannot sell stuff to the rest of the world, the arguments become meaningless. The money isn't there. Currently the government borrows $300/wk just to pay our bills. I can't even conceive how much money that is.

I honestly do not know why NZ has slipped from having one of the highest standards of living in the world (early 1960s) to around 24th today. But even 24th is magic compared with the poor sods at 100th and beyond. Somalia, Bangladesh, Angola.....

We are very well-off in any practical sense. Enjoy. :D

[Ocean1]

I honestly do not know why NZ has slipped from having one of the highest standards of living in the world (early 1960s) to around 24th today.

Occam’s razor. The crippling exposure to trade barriers and the much higher social support costs.

We’re small. That hurts us at the trade tables. We import unskilled immigrants to bolster our own incompetents and then insist on supporting them.

[Ocean1]

It has to be about Moral value, not monetary.

What has economics got to do with morals?

It's not just the wrong tool for the job it's a completely unrelated field.

[mashman]

What has economics got to do with morals?

It's not just the wrong tool for the job it's a completely unrelated field.

So, it's business not personal?

[Ocean1]

So, it's business not personal?

Spin it however you like, morals are a social code of conduct, the economy is a collective unit of value. You might as well complain that you have insuficient pudding to water your lawn. Utter gibberish.

I reckon some people think there's a limited pool of money and some other bastards's getting their share. In fact there's a limitless supply of it, if you've got the will to take it.

If you don't want to work that hard then have the grace to admit that you can't make the world a nicer place in which to live by stealing the fruits of other people's endevours.

[Winston001]

Occam’s razor. The crippling exposure to trade barriers and the much higher social support costs.

We’re small. That hurts us at the trade tables. We import unskilled immigrants to bolster our own incompetents and then insist on supporting them.

Aha! So William of Occam is to blame. All is revealed. :niceone: Not that I remember him really but its a relief to have someone to blame. The Kiwi way.

[oldrider]

...perhaps to be replaced by a different set?

Actually, in a way I hope Winnie does get back in. He adds a dash of comedic style that might get me reading Hansard again. Pity we can't have Cullen back too, he was quite witty. The current lot are boring as a boring thing.

Muldoon, Langey, etc great comedians piss poor prime ministers and politicians!

I don't want a joker "leading" (?) the country, I want a real leader for a change!

But can a real leader in NZ stand up! (Please .... socialists need not apply, that takes care of the Winston and Cullen fantasy)

[mashman]

Spin it however you like, morals are a social code of conduct, the economy is a collective unit of value. You might as well complain that you have insuficient pudding to water your lawn. Utter gibberish.

I reckon some people think there's a limited pool of money and some other bastards's getting their share. In fact there's a limitless supply of it, if you've got the will to take it.

If you don't want to work that hard then have the grace to admit that you can't make the world a nicer place in which to live by stealing the fruits of other people's endevours.

:rofl:, spin eh... it's an excuse. Usually associated with someone getting ripped off. But all's fair in love and war :rofl:.

True, money is limitless. Why do people complain about bludgers? They're just taking theirs with as much effort as they decide to put in.

I work plenty hard thanks... and there i'm lost with the rest of your metaphor.

[StoneY]

He kept labour out of office for a start.:jerry:

No ... he won his first term...he has yet to defend his position into term 2 and I for one hope he loses this year, I think Keys a rich puppet for other rich bastards who invest everything offshore

[rainman]

I don't want a joker "leading" (?) the country

Well, it's too late for that.

(Ba doom tish!)

Sorry, had to be done. And seriously, as you probably know, they're all jokers.

Personally I liked Cullen's work as well as his style (mostly, and certainly compared with Blinglish), but I would expect you might disagree with that.

Winnie, I'm not so sure. He's not really a friend of the Greens but some of their policy is OK if idealistic/populist (employment, exports, asset sales, tariffs...). Don't like the immigration rhetoric much. And his low tax policies don't really match his general spending policies.

[puddytat]

People have been winging for years,blaming one Govt or the other, but I find it sad really that to few of us actually have the guts to try something new....whats so scary about voting for something completely different like the GREENS:jerry:seeing as the other lot of tossers weve had since way back when seem to have done fuck all that we're happy with. Grow some & try something else.
The problem I say again with the economic monetary system IS that it lacks moral safeguards which allow some morally dodgey people to treat the planet & people as fodder for thier self indulgence & ego...IMO

[Drunken Monkey]

The have-nots need tangible incentives to improve their lot, rather than soaking up increasing amounts of taxpayer dollars and getting voting rights to maintain that position.

That's not all there is to contributing to a country. Start with the 1 vote per $10K earned, and add votes for volunteer community service, serving in the armed forces, etc...This way you're not restricting voting to purchasing power (and not all rich people are rich because they work hard or are smart) - give people of all walks of life options to increase their voting power, as long as they are contributing positively to the country.

[shrub]

People have been winging for years,blaming one Govt or the other, but I find it sad really that to few of us actually have the guts to try something new....whats so scary about voting for something completely different like the GREENS:jerry:seeing as the other lot of tossers weve had since way back when seem to have done fuck all that we're happy with. Grow some & try something else.
The problem I say again with the economic monetary system IS that it lacks moral safeguards which allow some morally dodgey people to treat the planet & people as fodder for thier self indulgence & ego...IMO

Vote for the Greens? Are you crazy or something?

Aren't they the idiots behind the home insulations scheme? You know, the scheme that created jobs, reduced energy consumpstion and saved ordinary kiwis money - what a silly idea, tax cuts are much more fun.

And don't they support New Zealand businesses through the buy Kiwi made campaign? What were they thinking - surely supporting NZ business is better achieved through encouraging more overseas companies to set up shop her or NZ businesses to move manufacturing overseas?

And when was the last time you heard of a Green MP dipping his or her fingers in the till and taking trips overseas with their girlfriends, rorting the accomodation subsidy etc? Do those idiots have no idea how to conduct themselves in parliament?

Or slagging off their own party/leader/colleagues publicly? This getting on with each other and focussing on the big picture instead of point scoring is nothing short of idiotic.

Nope, I can't see why anyone would vote Greens. Hell, if we had a Green government, who would we complain about?

[MSTRS]

Hell, if we had a Green government, who would we complain about?

The people who put them there?

[avgas]

The americans are ripping us off now!

http://www.amazon.com/RIOT-Macs-BEER-T-Shirt/dp/B0049YWNDK

[MisterD]

rorting the accomodation subsidy etc?

Wasn't that around the middle of 2009?

[Edbear]

If anyone steps back and takes an overview of this thread, it explains the current situation in NZ and indeed the world. Imagine if everyone on KB was like-minded and shared the same views.

That is why the Govt's will never change anything for the better. Maybe a bit here or there balanced by a bit worse here or there and leading to a change every term or two. Doesn't matter who, or which party is in power, the country and the world is going to keep on the way it is going now. You're never going to see a party with the nous and the power to make the right decisions and implement them effectively. You're never going to see everyone agreeing on the right way to solve the issues in front of us and KB is a prime example of why.

[Headbanger]

If anyone steps back and takes an overview of this thread, it explains the current situation in NZ and indeed the world. Imagine if everyone on KB was like-minded and shared the same views.

You're never going to see everyone agreeing on the right way to solve the issues in front of us and KB is a prime example of why.

Are we reading the same thread?:bleh:

I was about to suggest we (as in KB'er) all storm parliament, Take over the running of the country, outlaw cars, make registration of motorcycles free, and get in some dancing girls.

[Headbanger]

If anyone steps back and takes an overview of this thread, it explains the current situation in NZ and indeed the world. Imagine if everyone on KB was like-minded and shared the same views.

You're never going to see everyone agreeing on the right way to solve the issues in front of us and KB is a prime example of why.

Are we reading the same thread?:bleh:

I was about to suggest we (as in KB'er) all storm parliament, Take over the running of the country, outlaw cars, make registration of motorcycles free, and get in some dancing girls.

Whose with me?

[avgas]

and get in some dancing girls.

Whose with me?
Not the honda riders with that kind of attitude

[Scuba_Steve]

Are we reading the same thread?:bleh:

I was about to suggest we (as in KB'er) all storm parliament, Take over the running of the country, outlaw cars, make registration of motorcycles free, and get in some dancing girls.

Whose with me?

Throw in some Pies & Vodka & I'm there :niceone:

[Edbear]

Are we reading the same thread?:bleh:

I was about to suggest we (as in KB'er) all storm parliament, Take over the running of the country, outlaw cars, make registration of motorcycles free, and get in some dancing girls.

Whose with me?

KB...!!!???? :eek: There'd be blood in the corridor's of power... :laugh:

[oldrider]

Are we reading the same thread?:bleh:

I was about to suggest we (as in KB'er) all storm parliament, Take over the running of the country, outlaw cars, make registration of motorcycles free, and get in some dancing girls.


Are we reading the same thread?:bleh:

I was about to suggest we (as in KB'er) all storm parliament, Take over the running of the country, outlaw cars, make registration of motorcycles free, and get in some dancing girls.

Whose with me?

If you repeat things often enough, it becomes fact! :niceone:

Are you studying political science? :devil2:

[mashman]

Are we reading the same thread?:bleh:

I was about to suggest we (as in KB'er) all storm parliament, Take over the running of the country, outlaw cars, make registration of motorcycles free, and get in some dancing girls.

Whose with me?

I could be tempted :), i'll check the diary

[shrub]

Wasn't that around the middle of 2009?

I think so. Pretty recent.

God I love National/Act. They really are the best.

[MisterD]

I think so. Pretty recent.

God I love National/Act. They really are the best.

Mid 2009 that the Green party were caught double-dipping on a place in Thorndon (two MP's both claiming the rent)...that's not to mention the super scheme that is "all within the rules"...

[Headbanger]

If you repeat things often enough, it becomes fact! :niceone:

Are you studying political science? :devil2:

I am not in a position to study, I am a conglomerate that came together to subversively influence the thoughts and opinions of internet users.

Our tendrils run deep through every community, we have many faces,many names,our power is unlimited, till this point you have never heard of us, and you never will again.

But we are here, and we control the moods of the populace.

When the walls crumble, it will be us who pressed the button.

[shrub]

Mid 2009 that the Green party were caught double-dipping on a place in Thorndon (two MP's both claiming the rent)...that's not to mention the super scheme that is "all within the rules"...

yes, that happened. The difference it was a genuine mistake and was identified and revealed by the Greens, as opposed to Bill English's little scheme which had been cleverly set up using trusts etc, and as I recall he initially tried to deny it and justify it before giving up under media pressure.

And the place was being rented at below market rates and they were claiming less than they could have if the Green party had chosen to claim market rates (which they would be entitled to do). Bill charged market rates too.

[MisterD]

yes, that happened. The difference it was a genuine mistake and was identified and revealed by the Greens,

That's what they claimed anyway...would have made a good Tui ad at the time.

[shrub]

That's what they claimed anyway...would have made a good Tui ad at the time.

Of course. Why let the facts get in the way of a good prejudice, hey?:niceone:

[MisterD]

Of course. Why let the facts get in the way of a good prejudice, hey?:niceone:

My prejudice is that they're all politicians and that there's nothing different or special about the Greens. Their super arrangements are carefully structured to maximise the taxpayer funding, they all hang on in parliament just long enough to maximise their perks afterwards...this whole "Party of Principle" schtick is bollocks.

F'rinstance Jeanette...really good of her to push the insulation scheme for us and it did her Pink Batts shares no harm at all eh?

[Smifffy]

My prejudice is that they're all politicians and that there's nothing different or special about the Greens. Their super arrangements are carefully structured to maximise the taxpayer funding, they all hang on in parliament just long enough to maximise their perks afterwards...this whole "Party of Principle" schtick is bollocks.

F'rinstance Jeanette...really good of her to push the insulation scheme for us and it did her Pink Batts shares no harm at all eh?

Try this:

Ring up your local authorised trust board rep to get a price on having insulation installed under the scheme.

Then ring up your local hardware store and price up the required quantity of insulation.

Work out what you think would be a fair price for labour to install the insulation.

Try and work out where the subsidy money might have gone.

[shrub]

My prejudice is that they're all politicians and that there's nothing different or special about the Greens. Their super arrangements are carefully structured to maximise the taxpayer funding, they all hang on in parliament just long enough to maximise their perks afterwards...this whole "Party of Principle" schtick is bollocks.

F'rinstance Jeanette...really good of her to push the insulation scheme for us and it did her Pink Batts shares no harm at all eh?

So you don't like anyone in parliament then? I assume you don't vote?

And Pink Batts are a product of Fletcher Insulation, which is a subsidiary of Fletcher Construction, and they're a sound, well run and profitable company that has always performed well on the sharemarket - I have some and have done for many years and I don't recall the home insulation scheme making an appreciable difference.

You claim to be a bit of a switched on investor - your understanding of even simple facts about the NZX seems rather poor. You wouldn't be making yourself something you're not would you?