AA advocates wire rope barriers

[JohnR]

Todays Herald.

"(Mike) Noon:tugger: says the government could save a lot more lives by investing more in safer roads.
He quotes Australian roading expert... who estimates that if NZ spent $150 million a year for 10 years on safety improvements such as wire barriers:gob: and rumble strips...we could save 80 to 90 lives."

Once again it seems that motorcycles are not automobiles and it is not considered necessary to keep motorcyclists safe.
:mad:

[DEATH_INC.]

Todays Herald.

"(Mike) Noon:tugger: says the government could save a lot more lives by investing more in safer roads.
He quotes Australian roading expert... who estimates that if NZ spent $150 million a year for 10 years on safety improvements such as wire barriers:gob: and rumble strips...we could save 80 to 90 lives."

Once again it seems that motorcycles are not automobiles and it is not considered necessary to keep motorcyclists safe.
:mad:
It's a simple numbers game, save 80 - 90 cagers, or lose a handful of motorcyclists....

[MSTRS]

$150M p.a. saves 8 or 9 lives p.a.. That's $16.7M minimum per life. And here was me thinking that a life was valued at $3M, actuarily.
Mike Noon needs to go back to remedial school...

[Bald Eagle]

I think we have all realised that the Automobile reference in the AA name is only intended to include four wheeled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile) vehicles.

I feel they are actually anti-motorcycle in their thinking.

[BMWST?]

its a tough one.... is there a motorcycle friendly barrier? you might stop the bike but the rider can still end up on the wrong side of the road

[JohnR]

its a tough one.... is there a motorcycle friendly barrier? you might stop the bike but the rider can still end up on the wrong side of the road

Check out the latest Australian Road Rider mag page 97.

Not perfect but better than wire rope...
For those who don't get or can't access ARR the barrier is in Tasmania and is a standard single rail "Armco" with a heavy vinyl skirt between the rail and the ground.

[Coldrider]

Is the AA admitting that motorists cannot stay on their side of the road?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Dont forget they also advocated for speed cameras and hidden speed cameras.

Thats when I cancelled my membership.

they are nothing but the public relations arm of the LTSA and they can get a big wobbly dog up them.

[Gremlin]

There may not be motorcycle friendly barriers (some are good, like the skirts etc), but there certainly motorcycle unfriendly ones.

[Berg]

Living on the Kapiti coast:niceone: and riding the Wellington district every week, I get to see an awful lot of rope barriers. I accept they are there and alter my riding style to suit. I have had the barriers save me along Centenial Hwy when a woman went to sleep and tried to cross onto my side of the road getting tangled in the barrier before she got to me:eek5:
I also think, if we demand the removal of wire rope barriers, we are also going to have to demand the removal of every fence, tree, pole, signpost, roadside stall, kerb, gutter and everything else that makes riding a motorbike dangerous from a stationary object point of view.
Don't for a moment think I'm backing the AA or NZTA but I do think we need to take care of our own actions as well as trying to have changes made. Watching idiots passing cars at 85-90kms with their bikes mear centimeters from the rope rail:weird:, I just shake my head and stay in the center of the lane. I would rather arrive alive and 5min late than not arrive at all.

[NZsarge]

Living on the Kapiti coast:niceone: and riding the Wellington district every week, I get to see an awful lot of rope barriers. I accept they are there and alter my riding style to suit. I have had the barriers save me along Centenial Hwy when a woman went to sleep and tried to cross onto my side of the road getting tangled in the barrier before she got to me:eek5:
I also think, if we demand the removal of wire rope barriers, we are also going to have to demand the removal of every fence, tree, pole, signpost, roadside stall, kerb, gutter and everything else that makes riding a motorbike dangerous from a stationary object point of view.
Don't for a moment think I'm backing the AA or NZTA but I do think we need to take care of our own actions as well as trying to have changes made. Watching idiots passing cars at 85-90kms with their bikes mear centimeters from the rope rail:weird:, I just shake my head and stay in the center of the lane. I would rather arrive alive and 5min late than not arrive at all.

I understand what you're saying but you do realize there are better options out there other than wire rope barriers suitable for all road users....

[Berg]

I understand what you're saying but you do realize there are better options out there other than wire rope barriers suitable for all road users....
Yep, I know there are better options but we also have to accept that at the moment NZ is financially rooted so whether we like it or not we will get the cheapest option. I just change my riding style to suit my surroundings.

[JohnR]

Living on the Kapiti coast:niceone: and riding the Wellington district every week, I get to see an awful lot of rope barriers. I accept they are there and alter my riding style to suit. I have had the barriers save me along Centenial Hwy when a woman went to sleep and tried to cross onto my side of the road getting tangled in the barrier before she got to me:eek5:
I also think, if we demand the removal of wire rope barriers, we are also going to have to demand the removal of every fence, tree, pole, signpost, roadside stall, kerb, gutter and everything else that makes riding a motorbike dangerous from a stationary object point of view.
Don't for a moment think I'm backing the AA or NZTA but I do think we need to take care of our own actions as well as trying to have changes made. Watching idiots passing cars at 85-90kms with their bikes mear centimeters from the rope rail:weird:, I just shake my head and stay in the center of the lane. I would rather arrive alive and 5min late than not arrive at all.

I agree with you as well with regard to taking our own precautions. However fences, trees, poles etc, although they are hazards, are not deliberately placed in known "black spots" or on the outside of corners and called a "safety measure".:facepalm:

[rustic101]

Living on the Kapiti coast:niceone: and riding the Wellington district every week, I get to see an awful lot of rope barriers. I accept they are there and alter my riding style to suit. I have had the barriers save me along Centenial Hwy when a woman went to sleep and tried to cross onto my side of the road getting tangled in the barrier before she got to me:eek5:
I also think, if we demand the removal of wire rope barriers, we are also going to have to demand the removal of every fence, tree, pole, signpost, roadside stall, kerb, gutter and everything else that makes riding a motorbike dangerous from a stationary object point of view.
Don't for a moment think I'm backing the AA or NZTA but I do think we need to take care of our own actions as well as trying to have changes made. Watching idiots passing cars at 85-90kms with their bikes mear centimeters from the rope rail:weird:, I just shake my head and stay in the center of the lane. I would rather arrive alive and 5min late than not arrive at all.

Whole heartedly agree with Berg.

Only one rider has been killed by a WRB in NZ. While no death is acceptable the WRB was not the contributing factor of the crash. Every rider has a responsibility to ensure their bike is mechanically sound and their brain is fully engaged.

The approach and stance by some on WRB's, is, in my opinion a knee jerk over reaction to an issue(s) that are in full control of the rider.

[MSTRS]

... While no death is acceptable the WRB was not the contributing factor of the crash....

No. It wasn't. But it WAS the deciding factor of the outcome.

Comparisons between WRB and other roadside hazards are a red herring. Trees and posts (in general) are not 1 metre from the road edge and are not normally so close together that one can't find a gap. As for farm fences - again, usually further from road edge, and whilst not good to strike, are infinitely more survivable. Unlike WRB.

For a 'safety measure', WRB are not safe for all road users, their placement is often outside manufacturer's recommendations, and the positioning on roadsides where a rider would 'expect' some runoff/escape route...what can one say?
Their installation is not money well spent. But then again, when has spending public money wisely been a factor in NZ?

[sinned]

There is no chance of survival if you hit or slide into a wire barrier. That is what makes them such a threat to motorcyclists. Sure without a barrier you may hit a tree, post, another vehicle but the odds on your side - a wirebarrier is certain death.

[Berries]

There is no chance of survival if you hit or slide into a wire barrier. That is what makes them such a threat to motorcyclists. Sure without a barrier you may hit a tree, post, another vehicle but the odds on your side - a wirebarrier is certain death.
No it's not. But it's exaggerated statements like that that mean the TPTB are unlikely to take any "cheesecutter" campaign seriously.

[MSTRS]

No it's not. But it's exaggerated statements like that that mean the TPTB are unlikely to take any "cheesecutter" campaign seriously.

Got any figures on bikers that hit that shit at any sort of speed, and survived?
Overseas evidence attained by real world studies of WRB strikes by bikers show that at 70kph limbs (at least) are amputated.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the result of a human body hitting the posts or the cable/s...

[Berg]

Personally, I'm more concerned at the placement of rumble strips on the left side of the road than WRBs. The rope barrier saved me the day a lady fell asleep and tried to cross onto my side which without it would have resulted in a head on.
By placing rumble strips on the left especially on corners, roading authorities ahve removed the safety margin when swerving to avoid somebody on your side of the road.
Imagine laying into a wet right sweeper and finding a car overtaking and in your lane. You swerve to the right collecting the wet rumble strip while still laid over. None of the options here are going to end in a good result.

[Berries]

Got any figures on bikers that hit that shit at any sort of speed, and survived?
Overseas evidence attained by real world studies of WRB strikes by bikers show that at 70kph limbs (at least) are amputated.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the result of a human body hitting the posts or the cable/s...
Got some great photos of a near new Harley that took a length out, rider survived. For some years I was reviewing all crashes where bikes hit guardrail to determine what type of barrier it was. As I recall there were less than ten crashes identifiable as involving wire rope, but I haven't looked at the data for a couple of years. I am sure with its more frequent use there will be a few more examples now. Still not aware of any fatalities, other than the one that frequently gets mentioned.

Have got plenty of examples of riders hitting armco and being killed. Obviously there are many more km of that stuff around so you'd expect that, but the point loads on the support posts is just the same as with wire rope, and there is very little flex in the barrier itself.

[sinned]

No it's not. But it's exaggerated statements like that that mean the TPTB are unlikely to take any "cheesecutter" campaign seriously.

My apologies, before stating my view, I should have waited until there was a statistically valid number of motorcycle accidents with WRB to provide proof that sliding into a WRB at even a slow speed will not be a good look. Best hope of survival seems to be to clear the barrier - pray for that massive high side.

[MSTRS]

Got some great photos of a near new Harley that took a length out, rider survived. .... Proof that Harley riders are tuff??

Still not aware of any fatalities, other than the one that frequently gets mentioned.

Have got plenty of examples of riders hitting armco and being killed. Obviously there are many more km of that stuff around so you'd expect that, but the point loads on the support posts is just the same as with wire rope, and there is very little flex in the barrier itself.

:facepalm: One example of a survivor. How many didn't? I'm talking world-wide - NZ is not a special case. The EU is not removing this shit for no reason. The US doesn't install it without wide berms separating it from road edges for no reason.
There have been a number of deaths in Oz. There have been (at least) 2 in Sweden. I'm not sure about elsewhere.
And don't forget that (some) cars are just as bad as bikes for exposing their occupants to the risk of death. 4 teenage girls were decapitated in the US when their MX5? went under the wires.

Yes, a number of riders have been killed in NZ after contacting Armco. Again, NZ is not unique, and the toll is likely to be in the many hundreds if not thousands worldwide. I believe it is the posts that do the damage. Why do you think double-railing or Mototub is being increasingly used in other countries?

Perhaps you could re-acquaint yourself with this report, http://www.eurorap.org/library/pdfs/20081202_Bikers.PDF , esp sections 8+9.
And this one as well... http://motorcycleminds.org/?p=13

[Berries]

:facepalm: One example of a survivor. How many didn't? I'm talking world-wide - NZ is not a special case. The EU is not removing this shit for no reason. The US doesn't install it without wide berms separating it from road edges for no reason.
There have been a number of deaths in Oz. There have been (at least) 2 in Sweden. I'm not sure about elsewhere.
And don't forget that (some) cars are just as bad as bikes for exposing their occupants to the risk of death. 4 teenage girls were decapitated in the US when their MX5? went under the wires.

Yes, a number of riders have been killed in NZ after contacting Armco. Again, NZ is not unique, and the toll is likely to be in the many hundreds if not thousands worldwide. I believe it is the posts that do the damage. Why do you think double-railing or Mototub is being increasingly used in other countries?

Perhaps you could re-acquaint yourself with this report, http://www.eurorap.org/library/pdfs/20081202_Bikers.PDF , esp sections 8+9.
And this one as well... http://motorcycleminds.org/?p=13
If you are talking worldwide then I have no idea. When you quote low numbers like two in Sweden or "a number" in Australia, they don't jump out as being the killers that they are made out to be. Considering the amount of the stuff that has been put in around the world I would expect there are many survivors out there.

Anyroad, cheers for the EuroRAP link, interesting reading. Unfortunately the last sentence in Section 8 is exactly the response you get from the NZTA on the subject.

[MSTRS]

Anyroad, cheers for the EuroRAP link, interesting reading. Unfortunately the last sentence in Section 8 is exactly the response you get from the NZTA on the subject.

True. But it is also full of observations and recommendations that NZTA would never utter...

[MrKiwi]

cheese cutters are cheap to install compared to fixed barriers. Not as cheap as no barrier though. Goes to show with so many cars on the road tin tops remain the driving force for these decisions - logical but not right - a barrier to good decision making (and now I'm running out of puns).

Seriously though - I hate the cheese cutters - makes me nervous every time I ride past one.

Roads are shared spaces - about time the decision makers started making decisions on that basis...

[Mom]

Todays Herald.

"(Mike) Noon:tugger: says the government could save a lot more lives by investing more in safer roads.
He quotes Australian roading expert... who estimates that if NZ spent $150 million a year for 10 years on safety improvements such as wire barriers:gob: and rumble strips...we could save 80 to 90 lives."

Once again it seems that motorcycles are not automobiles and it is not considered necessary to keep motorcyclists safe.
:mad:

You know that AA have got a representative on the MSL committee eh? Absolute joke to have a representative from such an anti biker organisation having a say on how money for motorcycle safety should be spent. Hope you are a member of MAG-NZ. We are getting pretty fired up around this.

[MSTRS]

cheese cutters are cheap to install compared to fixed barriers. Not as cheap as no barrier though. Goes to show with so many cars on the road tin tops remain the driving force for these decisions - logical but not right - a barrier to good decision making (and now I'm running out of puns).

Seriously though - I hate the cheese cutters - makes me nervous every time I ride past one.

Roads are shared spaces - about time the decision makers started making decisions on that basis...

And that's it. One strike, and the repaired section has now cost more than the same length of concrete barrier.