has Jez slagged us again? [Archive]

bugjuice

19th June 2005, 20:51

Just watched Top Gear tonight, and another top show, again. Quite like it..

Anyhoo, at the end of the show, Jez raced on about the Atom, and it is a very unique and awesome car. I'd love one myself.

But he compared it to a CBR600RR.. ok, car vs bike - again.. The Atom weighing in at 500kgs, and a Civic Type R engine, supercharged, pumping out 300bhp. Jez pointed out, that's 600hp per tonne, which is more than an Enzo. Impressive. So, roll on the race.

The Atom lines up, then the CBR600RR. Off they go and the bike launches into the lead, until the first corner. Then it's all over for the bike.. But it's a 600cc I hear ya cry!!!! That's exactly what I thought too..

So a little research on the net, and I kinda figured that the CBR600RR puts out 601.45hp/p/t. Have I got that right? The bike puts out 101bhp and weighs 168kgs. Could someone check that for me, and see if I got it right?

And if so, is it still fair to put that car against that bike? I thought a CBR thou would be a better match, but the hp-to-tonne would be out, and thus be a little unfair... think this is the base for all car vs bike matches?

What?

19th June 2005, 20:56

Not comparing apples with apples - there is much more to it than simpe, power:weight figures, like coefficient of drag, downforce, rubber on the road blah blah blah

Sensei

19th June 2005, 20:56

A car will all ways be better round a corner due to having 4 wheels on the ground & alot less to lose if things go wrong .

bugjuice

19th June 2005, 21:04

both true facts, and something most of us know ;)

but if there were some playing field to level on, then could this be it? Just checking my bike with the same formular (if I have it right), and it puts my bike at a whopping 757.57575757636hp per tonne. Two things I like about that is the incidental '636' at the end, but also, that's unparralelled to almost any roadgoing car, and my bike is a 600, let alone 1000cc bikes.. starting to think I buggered up the formular.

my thinking is: Vehicle weight in kgs devide 1000kgs multiply vehicle bhp = power per tonne..

Sensi - how do ya powerslide like that...??

Coyote

19th June 2005, 21:09

Meh, Jezza was on to something. Guys in a midlife crisis who have never ridin a bike before who go out and buy a massive litre bike is just stupid. Instead go for the Atom cause it has less chance of killing ya

WINJA

19th June 2005, 21:56

ITS HARDLY A FAIR COMPARISON USING A CBR600 IS LIKE TAKING A RUBBER SPATULA TO A GUN FIGHT.
IF THEY WERE TO BE FAIR THEY SHOULD HAVE USED A HAND FINISHED GSXR1000 WITH OHLINS AND YOSHI BITS THE ATOM WAS A LOW VOLUME HAND BUILT CAR.

John

19th June 2005, 21:58

Skunk

19th June 2005, 22:15

Sensei

19th June 2005, 22:17

Sensi - how do ya powerslide like that...??[/QUOTE]

Sorry this is not one of mine ! Even tho I have done some nice drifts myself . Still trying to get a mate out to a back road so I can post up some of these . :whistle:

bugjuice

19th June 2005, 22:32

Sorry this is not one of mine ! Even tho I have done some nice drifts myself . Still trying to get a mate out to a back road so I can post up some of these . :whistle:
kinda figured it'd be a slim chance of not being you, no offence ;) just wondered if you or anyone else knew where to get balls to do it like that....

WINJA

19th June 2005, 22:34

kinda figured it'd be a slim chance of not being you, no offence ;) just wondered if you or anyone else knew where to get balls to do it like that....
THATS HOW I RIDE PRECEDING A CRASH

Motu

19th June 2005, 22:35

bugjuice

19th June 2005, 22:42

Power to weight is not even the way to compare bikes,let alone compare bikes and cars - my XLV750 and the DT230 I replaced it with have exactly the same power to weight ratio,both adventure bikes....but I wouldn't even dare to compare them...apart from two wheels.
good point. So it really wasn't a fair thing to race then? And that a nice ZX10 would have been the bike of choice, if anything..?

wkid_one

19th June 2005, 22:46

Some interesting data....
http://www.openwheelers.co.nz/newmodel/images/track_times.gif
Interesting - 300hp @ 8500rpm
Thing weighs 346kg.
http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/04/press/power_laps.gif

Jeremy

19th June 2005, 22:47

Power to weight is pretty useless.

GN250 will get nearly 200hp/tonne and although it's quicker than most cars to 100km/h that's pretty much all that it'll get to.

The only real way that would be fair is to compare cost to cost. When someone finds the $3000 brand new car thatworks reasonably well, that's the day that I might think about switching.

Virago

19th June 2005, 22:47

........The Atom weighing in at 500kgs, and a Civic Type R engine, supercharged, pumping out 300bhp. Jez pointed out, that's 600hp per tonne.....
....the CBR600RR puts out 601.45hp/p/t. Have I got that right? The bike puts out 101bhp and weighs 168kgs......
Comparing the power to weight ratios without rider / driver is pointless, unless you can drive them by remote control!

Add the weight of a fully kitted rider to the bike - 85Kg? Combined bike / rider is 253Kg, giving a power to weight figure of 399 hp/p/t.

Put the same weight of driver in the car. Combined car / driver is 585Kg, giving a power to weight figure of 513 hp/p/t.

Spot the difference?

Coupled with the centre of gravity differences, and the amount of rubber on the road, means the bike doesn't stand a chance.

WINJA

19th June 2005, 22:49

Ixion

19th June 2005, 22:50

Power to weight is not even the way to compare bikes,let alone compare bikes and cars - my XLV750 and the DT230 I replaced it with have exactly the same power to weight ratio,both adventure bikes....but I wouldn't even dare to compare them...apart from two wheels.

I once had a Yamaha 50 that had an (unladen) power weight ratio that was better tha n the Triumph I had at the same time.

Power to weight is maybe relevant for initla acceleration , but over about 50kph it becomes meaningless, as air resistance takes over from inertia.

wkid_one

19th June 2005, 22:53

And no one has yet mentioned torque.....

Jeremy

19th June 2005, 22:53

That reminds me, I'd like to see how fast one of the MotoGP bikes can go around the Top Gear track.

gav

19th June 2005, 23:10

At best maybe 6-8 seconds quicker than a CBR600RR, did you see the F1 Renault lap under a minute last week :Punk:
The thing with bikes is a GSXR1000K5 (or whatever) could lap within 10 seconds of the MotoGP lap record, but no production car can lap within 30 seconds of a F1 car.
Oh yeah, theres a Atom Aerial on Trade Me, sadly it doesnt have a 300hp supercharged Civic R engine though http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Competition-cars/auction-27115981.htm
Bloody funny watching Jezza's face getting sucked off, he's right about the real wind in you face experience though, isnt he?

Ixion

19th June 2005, 23:14

And no one has yet mentioned torque.....

We don't talk about that.

gav

19th June 2005, 23:18

And no one has yet mentioned torque.....
Shit movie, that kid shoulda stayed in Shorty St

wkid_one

19th June 2005, 23:25

I was meaning the force of rotation - not the movie

Ixion

19th June 2005, 23:26

I was meaning the force of rotation - not the movie

And -- may the Force be with you .

Motu

19th June 2005, 23:39

And no one has yet mentioned torque.....

Horsepower,and colour,and graphics,and top speed and 1/4 mile times are far more important than torque.

Virago

19th June 2005, 23:42

Horsepower,and colour,and graphics,and top speed and 1/4 mile times are far more important than torque.
......and as we all know, torque is cheap.

idb

19th June 2005, 23:45

Horsepower,and colour,and graphics,and top speed and 1/4 mile times are far more important than torque.
And the sunglasses, and the chick on the pillion................

Oscar

20th June 2005, 09:14

Where power to weight is similar four wheels is always gonna beat two.
Get over it.

StoneChucker

20th June 2005, 12:55

It would also depend on the layout of the top gear track. On some tracks, a 600 is faster than a 1000, so it may have been the better choice.

But Jeremy is being a pillock again. He tries to win the bike/car arguement by getting a car to go around the track faster. Lets face it, thats not hard to do - there are some awesome cars out there, like the Arial ATOM for instance. What a car! I'd love to have a go in that.

When Jeremy said he had NEVER felt acceleration like that before, thats right where he lost the arguement for cars being more exhilerating than bikes imho. 1000 sports bike accelerate faster than the atom, thus making them more exhilerating. Add in the cornering sensation and the potential for cunning stunts :Punk: and you've got alot more joy on a bike.

It really is a silly arguement to perpetuate, both vehicles have their uses and strong points.

bugjuice

20th June 2005, 13:06

valid points there SC..

Actually, you've touched on something that hits the nail on the head - where he's never felt acceleration like that before, the bike out-accelerates him off the line. Unfortunately velocity kicks in, and torque curves (see, torque has now been mentioned) take effect, and the race is over.

The TG track favours fast cars, that's why it was designed on an old runway. A 1000cc could almost run out of breath by the time it finishes the straight, because they accelerate so fast, where as cars don't have the same rate, so they accelerate all the way to the end, then have to brake. Fast tracks are for the thous, like Puke, where as 600s are for slightly lower-down power, such as the Taupo track. And that's before you take rider abilities, tyres, temp etc.

I don't think the bike vs car will ever be resolved. The bike version of Jez and TG would probably pitch the GSXR K5 against a Golf GTi and think that's a fair call. Doesn't help he's over-biased, and can't ride for toffee, but makes for good viewing as long as he doesn't mention motorcikles.

wkid_one

20th June 2005, 13:13

Aerodynamics also have a big part to play. A Formula 1 car at 200mph is chucking down 2 times its weight in downforce - and what about a bike aerodynamics? In a straight out sprint this isn't a problem. When you start talking about cornering speed - different altogether. Watch the farce that was the US GP this morning - the cars where cornering with a force of about 3-4.5g - now that is mad.

You take that downforce and the size of the tyres - compared to negligible downforce of a bike and two contact patches the size of your palm.

Hardly an argument worth having is it - you can't compare them - cars have too many advantages in general terms when measured on a track.

But can a car do this?

vifferman

20th June 2005, 13:18

I don't think the bike vs car will ever be resolved... Doesn't help he's over-biased, and can't ride for toffee, but makes for good viewing as long as he doesn't mention motorcikles.
True.
I've seen so many other bike vs. car comparisons where the bike conclusively cleaned up, but it's never going to in a Top Gear comparo, as Clarkson HATES bikes, and never misses any chance to slag off at them.

I agreed with him in some ways - given the choice between the Ariel Atom and a bike, I said I'd take the car. But then I thought about it in the 'real world' - it would be horrid in traffic, because you would be down at bumper level, it has no protection from the elements, the seats are hard plastic, so it would be very uncomfortable apart from on smooth roads, etc. etc. Would it really be more fun than a bike? And can you lane-split in one? Can you sneak past slow-moving traffic coming back from a holiday? It's also very expensive - for $100K-ish I could buy a very nice bike AND a (less exciting) sports car.

Motu

20th June 2005, 14:07

, as Clarkson HATES bikes,

He's got you,hook,line and sinker...he puts on a show,he wants participation and reaction,stirs the pot and laughs at his sidekicks stature and choice of clothes...do short hairdressers get upset? No,they realise he's having them on...do you?

vifferman

20th June 2005, 14:13

He's got you,hook,line and sinker...he puts on a show,he wants participation and reaction,stirs the pot and laughs at his sidekicks stature and choice of clothes...do short hairdressers get upset? No,they realise he's having them on...do you?
Yeah. But I'm still sure he hates bikes. Yes, he makes too big a thing of it, and yes, the conversations, hassling etc. between the presenters are carefully scripted, but I'm sure he is someone with a strong antipathy towards motorcycles because one frightened him once.

I don't care. I watch it to be entertained. But it doesn't stop me sometimes being irritated by some of the stuff on it.

But can a car do this?
<FIELDSET class=fieldset><LEGEND>Attached Thumbnails</LEGEND>http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11675&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11675)
</FIELDSET>

Yeah - get the front wing a few cms up off the ground, and it'll look exactly like the bike.

For a few seconds.

Saw it on some boring Murkn race where the front of the car ran over some broken car bits on the track... :rofl:

Lou Girardin

20th June 2005, 15:02

I'll put $500 on a race between my Bandit and an Atom.
From Auckland city to Ramarama 5.00 PM Friday on a holiday weekend.
Any takers?
Jeeza?
Anyone?

wkid_one

20th June 2005, 15:20

I'll put $500 on a race between my Bandit and an Atom.
From Auckland city to Ramarama 5.00 PM Friday on a holiday weekend.
Any takers?
Jeeza?
Anyone?

Fuck - I would bet on public transport at that time - and that is saying something

Motu

20th June 2005, 16:17

Yeah. But I'm still sure he hates bikes.

Did you see the recent one where he was taking the diesel Jag around ''The Ring''? To get an idea of what it was like he was having a talk to some sports bike riders between sesions - no anamosity,just fast bike riders talking to a fast car driver...as equals....the real man is totaly different from the show man.

White trash

20th June 2005, 17:16

Did you see the recent one where he was taking the diesel Jag around ''The Ring''? To get an idea of what it was like he was having a talk to some sports bike riders between sesions - no anamosity,just fast bike riders talking to a fast car driver...as equals....the real man is totaly different from the show man.

100% on the button as usual.

Vehicle enthusiasts are just that, enthusiasts.

WINJA

20th June 2005, 17:18

CLARKSON WHAT A PUSSY,I ALWAYS SAY THOSE WHO CANT RIDE DRIVE. STILL A GOOD SHOW

slob

20th June 2005, 18:11

Was gutted that I missed it but found this handy link:

http://www.openwheelers.com.au/videos/Top_Gear_Ariel_Atom_2_Full_segment.mpg

SPman

20th June 2005, 18:27

Top gear used to have bike tests as well...in the old days...
luv the show cos he aint serious - loves to wind people up!
Have you read any of his car tests on the times online - great stuff
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,12529,00.html
(http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,12389,00.html)

Motu

20th June 2005, 19:18

luv the show cos he aint serious - loves to wind people up!
Have you read any of his car tests on the times online - great stuff
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,12529,00.html
(http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,12389,00.html)

I can't believe people can't see this,that's why it's so much fun and popular - still,it's a laugh seeing all the serious people in the world getting wound up over nothing at all. :rofl:

gav

20th June 2005, 21:44

True.
I've seen so many other bike vs. car comparisons where the bike conclusively cleaned up, but it's never going to in a Top Gear comparo, as Clarkson HATES bikes, and never misses any chance to slag off at them.

I agreed with him in some ways - given the choice between the Ariel Atom and a bike, I said I'd take the car. But then I thought about it in the 'real world' - it would be horrid in traffic, because you would be down at bumper level, it has no protection from the elements, the seats are hard plastic, so it would be very uncomfortable apart from on smooth roads, etc. etc. Would it really be more fun than a bike? And can you lane-split in one? Can you sneak past slow-moving traffic coming back from a holiday? It's also very expensive - for $100K-ish I could buy a very nice bike AND a (less exciting) sports car.
$100Kish? Fark off, he quoted it at 29000 pounds, whats that, under $60K NZ? See my earlier post, theres one on trade me for under $50K? People pay that much for a V8 Falcon don't they? As far as feeling the acceleration, see his face? On a bike, youre wearing a helmet, so don't FEEL it quite the same. Main reason JC winds up the motorcyclists is cos both his co hosts are avid bikers! He's just taking the piss, and he's quite good at it :clap:

Jantar

20th June 2005, 21:53

Try adding the weight of the rider/driver then recalculate.

Also, the power to weight ratio is mainly related to acceleration. You need to know the power to drag ratio for top speed.

Motu

20th June 2005, 22:12

Try adding the weight of the rider/driver then recalculate.
.

I did - but got the same result both times....do you think for the bigger bike I should make my weight heavier,or lighter??....I'm confused,does it have to be this hard?

gav

20th June 2005, 23:16

That reminds me, I'd like to see how fast one of the MotoGP bikes can go around the Top Gear track.
How about around Catalunya?
Sete Gibernau has the fastest lap of 1.42.337, Juan Montoya in 2004 recorded 1.14.804, 28 seconds faster, he'd be lapping Sete after only 4 laps!!!!!

Oscar

21st June 2005, 08:51

Try adding the weight of the rider/driver then recalculate.

Also, the power to weight ratio is mainly related to acceleration. You need to know the power to drag ratio for top speed.

It's actually got more to do with traction. The car passed the bike in the corner...

ManDownUnder

21st June 2005, 10:04

He's got you,hook,line and sinker...he puts on a show,he wants participation and reaction,stirs the pot and laughs at his sidekicks stature and choice of clothes...do short hairdressers get upset? No,they realise he's having them on...do you?

BULLSEYE - exactly right!

If he hated bikes, he'd be giving his two offsiders a lot more graif than he does right now - they both ride bikes!

He's good at selling and he's a great personality and host.

He gives as good as he gets... I say it's a mutual windup session? He makes himself the target of ridicule (remember the german woman driving the diesel merc around nurburgring?). They made a huge joke at his personal expense... turns out she was a professional driver.

Do you think he knew that ahead of time? Of course he did, did she make a mockery of his best driving efforts? Of course she did, dod he air the footage anyway?

... I think it speaks for itself.

I like the guy and take it on the chin when he dishes out the grief - he takes it back in turn.

Where's the harm?
MDU

Lou Girardin

21st June 2005, 10:43

BULLSEYE - exactly right!

If he hated bikes, he'd be giving his two offsiders a lot more graif than he does right now - they both ride bikes!

He's good at selling and he's a great personality and host.

He gives as good as he gets... I say it's a mutual windup session? He makes himself the target of ridicule (remember the german woman driving the diesel merc around nurburgring?). They made a huge joke at his personal expense... turns out she was a professional driver.

Do you think he knew that ahead of time? Of course he did, did she make a mockery of his best driving efforts? Of course she did, dod he air the footage anyway?

... I think it speaks for itself.

I like the guy and take it on the chin when he dishes out the grief - he takes it back in turn.

Where's the harm?
MDU

Wasn't she described as an intructor in the show?

ManDownUnder

21st June 2005, 10:59

Wasn't she described as an intructor in the show?

I think so - can't recall specifically... my point is that she made mincemeat out of his time, he knew damned well she would ahead of time, and they set it all up and filmed it anyway.

We all had a laugh at his expense... and he knew we would. He's not such a bad guy (IMHO)
MDU

gav

21st June 2005, 22:31

The two girls on Sundays show taking the piss out of his new GT40 were classic as well, what did one say? "God, how small is your penis?" :rofl:

Posh Tourer :P

22nd June 2005, 21:18

The Atom lines up, then the CBR600RR. Off they go and the bike launches into the lead, until the first corner. Then it's all over for the bike.. But it's a 600cc I hear ya cry!!!! That's exactly what I thought too..

So a little research on the net, and I kinda figured that the CBR600RR puts out 601.45hp/p/t. Have I got that right? The bike puts out 101bhp and weighs 168kgs. Could someone check that for me, and see if I got it right?

And if so, is it still fair to put that car against that bike? I thought a CBR thou would be a better match, but the hp-to-tonne would be out, and thus be a little unfair... think this is the base for all car vs bike matches?

It is fair because they ought to have similar accelerative powers with similar hp/t, and all you are comparing against is cornering power. However, the CBR ought to have then a decent aftermarket suspension system and very good tyres.