Making motorcycling safer

[shrub]

There is much fervent debate about motorcycle safety on these boards, and the advent of the body headed by Gareth Morgan shows that our safety is being taken seriously at a higher level, but what can WE do to improve safety?

I know for me, ATGATT is fundamental, but I really don't want to use my helmet, gloves, boots etc for what I bought them for - I hate the idea of binning my bike with a passion. Ultimately (as Katman has been preaching) our safety is our responsibility, but what techniques should riders be taught to improve that safety?

I have done a few advanced courses on race tracks, and while they were a lot of fun, most of what I learned was how to go round corners faster - I even lean these days! The most dangerous riding I do is not the brisk ride over the Lewis Pass, but my daily commute. I have learned all kinds of strategies over the years, like moving around in my lane, making eye contact, watching turning wheels, identifying drivers that are too busy with eating/talking/texting/changing the radio to drive etc, and so far they're working well for me.

What would you do to make motorcycling safer? What laws need to be passed? What training do different riders need? What attitude shift do all road users need?

[Usarka]

Heavily subsidised learner training (less than say 4 riders per instructor, with radio contact) so the right skills are learnt up front and so the wrong ones don't need un-learning at the other end.


A discount off your rego/ACC levy if you don't crash or get a ticket in that year.

Free pies.

[Bald Eagle]

The attitude shift required of all road users is one of tolerance and responsibility.

We can't legislate against stupidity. I continue to ride on the assumption that (a) I'm naked and (b) Everyone is trying to kill me. The rest is down to the fates.

[Usarka]

The attitude shift required of all road users is one of tolerance and responsibility.

We can't legislate against stupidity. I continue to ride on the assumption that (a) I'm naked and (b) Everyone is trying to kill me. The rest is down to the fates.

I made a submission to the safer roads thing last year, with the theme that attitude on the road reflects our attitude in society, and it's this whole attitude that needs to change.

They said attitude was outside scope of the the safer roads initiative (ie. it's all about legislation).

[javawocky]

Road down to the Tron this weekend with the wife who is a relatively inexperienced rider and the following stood out for me.

Following distances :
Honey, you are not in a car and can't stop as fast.

Room for error :
Darling, those nastly looking Cheese Graters on the side of the road can leave a nasty mark if you get tangled up with them. So when the wind is blowing and the road is wet leave a good gap between yourself and them in case you slip or a gust of wind blows you sideways.

This is not Hampton Downs :
Munchkins, no need to overtake cars all the time, better to sit and cruise in the slow lane and get there safely.

Lane splitting :
Babes, late splitting at over 50kph is pointless and is a risk you don't have to take.

I have a lot of training to do :facepalm:

[awa355]

Road down to the Tron this weekend with the wife who is a relatively inexperienced rider and the following stood out for me.

Following distances :
Honey, you are not in a car and can't stop as fast.

Room for error :
Darling, those nastly looking Cheese Graters on the side of the road can leave a nasty mark if you get tangled up with them. So when the wind is blowing and the road is wet leave a good gap between yourself and them in case you slip or a gust of wind blows you sideways.

This is not Hampton Downs :
Munchkins, no need to overtake cars all the time, better to sit and cruise in the slow lane and get there safely.

Lane splitting :
Babes, late splitting at over 50kph is pointless and is a risk you don't have to take.

I have a lot of training to do :facepalm:


I hope you listened to her.

[javawocky]

I hope you listened to her.

she was the on doing all the bad stuff, not me :innocent:

[Blackbird]

A short while ago, I received the latest free newsletter from Megarider. In the newsletter, there's a piece on some new research at Nottingham University in the UK by researchers in the Engineering and Psychology faculties. Funded by the Institute for Advanced Motorists (IAM), the research project investigated different rider behaviours, including forward planning, hazard perception and levels of risk taking. A unique approach was designed to find out whether or not riders with advanced training ride differently to novice or experienced riders who don’t have an advanced qualification.

Advanced training, in the context of the study, related to people who had recently (in the last 3 years) completed the Institute of Advanced Motorists, 'Skills for Life' advanced training. The idea of the research was to explore issues associated with behaviour, skills and attitudes of the different rider groups.

Moving to the findings of the research, the research subjects were novice riders, experienced riders and riders who had taken advanced motorcycle training. The summary of findings are:

* Experience on its own does not necessarily make riders safer on the road and in some cases the experienced riders behaved more like the novice riders.

* Those riders who had taken advanced motorcycle safety training used better road positioning to anticipate and respond to hazards, kept to urban speed limits, and actually made better progress through bends than the other groups of novice and experienced bikers.

"Whilst experience seems to help develop rider skills to an extent, advanced training appears to develop deeper levels of awareness, perception and responsibility," Dr. Alex Stedmon noted, "It also appears to make riders better urban riders and quicker, smoother and safer riders in rural settings."

"This is real cutting edge research and the hazard perception results, in particular, have shown that advanced riders were quicker to identify hazards and had a greater awareness on their responsibility to themselves and other road users," Dr. David Crundall from the School of Psychology added. "The results indicate that, indeed, the advanced riders had a different mind set to the other groups - especially when we looked at other aspects of the research such as hazard perception skills and interpretations of liability. We referred back to 'locus of control' theory and used a standard questionnaire to investigate if our rider groups had a fundamentally different mindset from the outset - they didn't (which was good!) but then when we looked at their interpretations of the hazards, we found that the advanced riders placed a greater emphasis on rider responsibility. When we looked back at their riding behaviour from the simulator we found that advanced riders took more defensive road positions that allowed greater views round bends etc. Interestingly, our 'experienced' group (standard riders with at least 3 years full licence and no advanced training) behaved in some respects like advanced riders and in others like novice riders - illustrating that experience (length of time riding) alone does not necessarily make people better riders."

Good situational awareness as opposed to just bike handling skills is the key to survival, either at low speeds or higher speeds. All about anticipating potential hazards and strategies to mitigate them.

I posted this extract on my blog and a few forums to test the reaction. Only a handful of people said "Absolutely and I'm going to do something about that". Sorry to say that the majority either joked about it or were downright abusive as if the research was an affront to their manhood.

Always thought that bike riders were more receptive to on-going skills development than pure car drivers but maybe not?

[awa355]

I would agree with their findings. As a experienced rider, over 40 yrs riding, I still get things wrong. Some days I go out and ride like a new boy. May have gotten around all corners, ( bar one) in that time but in hindsight I could've got around many in a safer manner.
I wonder how much is simply human behaviour. In theory you can be perfect all the time. In practice, non of us deliver 100%.

[Clean_up]

For what it is worth, I belive the best thing that WE as motorcyclists can do is to ALWAYS expect the unexpected, ride like every TWAT on the road has NO idea what the hell they are doing and that they are AIMING to flatten you, ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS have an escape route for EVERY situation you are in....ie, coming up to a blind corner, EXPECT some DIPSHIT to be coming round it on the wrong side and be ready for that with a plan for getting out of it alive.
Unfortunately as we have all been saying here, the majority of motorcycle accidents ARE NOT caused by the motorcyclist, so we have to anticipate that EVERYONE else on the road is out to get us. Always think......how can I get out of this if shit goes bad real quick.
According to statistics.....for a motorcyclist it is not a matterif, but more when, are we going to be involved in a crash....so it is up to US to do all we can to stay alive...
ATGATT, always have an escape..if that means riding into the ditch instead of the front of that truck on the wrong side, chances are grass and dirt are more forgiving than 50 tonnes of steel.

Anyway that is just my thoughts......

[Oscar]

All the advanced skills I have I learned on a dirt bike, off the road.

[Blackbird]

Unfortunately as we have all been saying here, the majority of motorcycle accidents ARE NOT caused by the motorcyclist, so we have to anticipate that EVERYONE else on the road is out to get us. Always think......how can I get out of this if shit goes bad real quick.
Anyway that is just my thoughts......

I think that's generally true but with better situational awareness, could a motorcyclist have done more to avoid the accident which was caused by another vehicle? It was almost by sheer chance in the early 2000's that the advanced course I took focussed on awareness more than handling skills and although I'd been riding for over 35 years at that time, some of the things the instructor taught weren't intuitive. It's been an on-going life-saver for me.

[Ocean1]

Always thought that bike riders were more receptive to on-going skills development than pure car drivers but maybe not?

Interesting. But, with respect I'd be surprised if, having coached the "advanced" group the IAM found anything BUT what they wanted to see in that group.

There's a name for that effect in research structure and analysis, but I'm fookt if I can remember it...

[Tink]

There is much fervent debate about motorcycle safety on these boards, and the advent of the body headed by Gareth Morgan shows that our safety is being taken seriously at a higher level, but what can WE do to improve safety?

I know for me, ATGATT is fundamental, but I really don't want to use my helmet, gloves, boots etc for what I bought them for - I hate the idea of binning my bike with a passion. Ultimately (as Katman has been preaching) our safety is our responsibility, but what techniques should riders be taught to improve that safety?

I have done a few advanced courses on race tracks, and while they were a lot of fun, most of what I learned was how to go round corners faster - I even lean these days! The most dangerous riding I do is not the brisk ride over the Lewis Pass, but my daily commute. I have learned all kinds of strategies over the years, like moving around in my lane, making eye contact, watching turning wheels, identifying drivers that are too busy with eating/talking/texting/changing the radio to drive etc, and so far they're working well for me.

What would you do to make motorcycling safer? What laws need to be passed? What training do different riders need? What attitude shift do all road users need?

I just learnt a lot from what you just said!!!! Thanks

[Ocean1]

All the advanced skills I have I learned on a dirt bike, off the road.

Yup. I failed to learn too many advanced skills but I sure fall down way better.

"Er indoors is the first person I've taught to ride that hasn't started with serious time on a small dirt bike. In the greasiest slime I can find.

100hrs compulsary boot camp on an XR200.:yes:

[Katman]

Unfortunately as we have all been saying here, the majority of motorcycle accidents ARE NOT caused by the motorcyclist



I think you'll find they are actually.

[oldrider]

What would you do to make motorcycling safer? What laws need to be passed? What training do different riders need? What attitude shift do all road users need?

Attitude towards motorcycles must change!

Would that god the gift to give us
to see our selves
as others see us!

Respect can only be earned, so far we have not done very well in that department!

We need to have other road users accept motorcycles as a legitimate and legal form of transport, just like they think "they" are!

Motorcycles are not toys and motorcyclists are not unessential road users!

Other road users "don't see us" because "they" think we don't belong and many of us behave in a manner that endorses that belief!

Their perception is their reality, "we" must do "our" best to change that!

People in so called positions of "authority" must change their "negative" attitudes toward motorcycles as well!

I (personally) believe that this is one of the biggest obstacles facing motorcycle acceptance in the community at large!

The rest is up to us. :yes:

[Oscar]

Yup. I failed to learn too many advanced skills but I sure fall down way better.

"Er indoors is the first person I've taught to ride that hasn't started with serious time on a small dirt bike. In the greasiest slime I can find.

100hrs compulsary boot camp on an XR200.:yes:

Kenny Roberts had a riding schooll for GP riders which involved racing XR100's on the dirt. Dirt riding teaches control in dubious traction.

[Ocean1]

Dirt riding teaches control in dubious traction.

It does. And the control inputs are the same at higher speeds. It's just that at GP racing speeds speeds ALL traction is dubious, and most of us mere mortals run out of time.

[swbarnett]

what techniques should riders be taught to improve that safety?
Technique, while important, is secondary. First riders must be taught attitude. The mindset that your safety is your own resposibility and noone else's.

After all the crashes I've had (all within the first two years of riding in the early 80s) my first thought was "What could I have done to prevent it?" Every time I've come up with an answer and learnt from it (even when I was not legally at fault). An answer of "nothing" is not acceptable.

[shrub]

Technique, while important, is secondary. First riders must be taught attitude. The mindset that your safety is your own resposibility and noone else's.

After all the crashes I've had (all within the first two years of riding in the early 80s) my first thought was "What could I have done to prevent it?" Every time I've come up with an answer and learnt from it (even when I was not legally at fault). An answer of "nothing" is not acceptable.

Good answer! Probably why your accidents were all in the 1980s. Attitude is definately the key, and the best part is, it's quick and easy. I can change my attitude in about a minute, but learning skill can take years. Also attitude leads to learning skills..

[swbarnett]

experienced riders who don’t have an advanced qualification.
While I agree that training will more than likely improve any rider I wonder what they class as an "experienced" rider - a 40yr weekend warrior that only rides in fine weather when the wife allows or a 2yr rider who commutes and rides recreationally in ALL weathers every day?

[Blackbird]

While I agree that training will more than likely improve any rider I wonder what they class as an "experienced" rider - a 40yr weekend warrior that only rides in fine weather when the wife allows or a 2yr rider who commutes and rides recreationally in ALL weathers every day?

Anyone who isn't a novice and not an advanced rider presumably - could be either. It sounds like you disparage people who only ride at weekends, yet they can still be competent - depends on what sort of riding they do. Someone who commutes daily in town isn't necessarily any better.

[davebullet]

Technique, while important, is secondary. First riders must be taught attitude. The mindset that your safety is your own resposibility and noone else's.

After all the crashes I've had (all within the first two years of riding in the early 80s) my first thought was "What could I have done to prevent it?" Every time I've come up with an answer and learnt from it (even when I was not legally at fault). An answer of "nothing" is not acceptable.

A wise man once said.:yes:

[davebullet]

Anyone who isn't a novice and not an advanced rider presumably - could be either. It sounds like you disparage people who only ride at weekends, yet they can still be competent - depends on what sort of riding they do. Someone who commutes daily in town isn't necessarily any better.

Commuting and weekend riding involve different skills. Enough practice at one doesn't make you competent at the other. I've found you are more likely to induce oh shit moments on the weekend stuff (as you tend to do it for fun and push yourself). When commuting I find my mindset completely focusses on self preservation and reading other drivers signals. I'm also more courteous when commuting and realise it is a great way to build PR with car drivers. Always let an indicating driver in. In a queue - let the side street driver across (checking there isn't a cyclists barrelling down the side oblivious to the gesture). Thank the driver that lets you into his lane for you to then lane split.

We'll build our credibility on the road with other users when we behave with them. Actually - most drivers probably resent our lane splitting, so a bit of PR saying we are shortening the queues by doing so might be a good idea.

[swbarnett]

It sounds like you disparage people who only ride at weekends,
Not at all. Certainly there are weekend warriors that can ride bettter than me.

All I'm saying is calling someone an "experienced" rider covers a very wide range of skill sets and attitudes and doesn't necessarily mean a lot.

[swbarnett]

Actually - most drivers probably resent our lane splitting,
I've found quite the opposite in Auckland if the number of drivers that make room is anything to go by.

[Usarka]

Technique, while important, is secondary. First riders must be taught attitude. The mindset that your safety is your own resposibility and noone else's.

After all the crashes I've had (all within the first two years of riding in the early 80s) my first thought was "What could I have done to prevent it?" Every time I've come up with an answer and learnt from it (even when I was not legally at fault). An answer of "nothing" is not acceptable.

Good post, but how do we get others to learn from your mistakes? There's a combination of factors working against that concept ("it won't happen to me", misjudging capabilities of self and machine, ignorance of what can go wrong and the consequences, youthfulness, bad decision making, etc).

I'm still thinking decent training could be a decent way to learn from others mistakes (or maybe education campaigns but I'm not convinced about those - remember the "look out for motorbikes" bollox...).

I recall having to do untold repititions of emergency braking drills (including in the wet) and my instructor reinforcing these with anecdotes and pretend situations. And continually pointing out hazards over the radio while we rode around London and surrounding countryside (all on a big bike too).

Also +1 to the dirt skills - funilly enough my mountain bike reactions have saved my bacon on two occasions in the early days of riding before I learnt the practicalities of loose metal and shiny wet tar). Sometimes we do get ourselves in the shit regardless, and skills can make the difference between getting out of it in one piece or being zipped up in a bag........

Fuck too much coffee /rant.

[Blackbird]

I'm still thinking decent training could be a decent way to learn from others mistakes (or maybe education campaigns but I'm not convinced about those - remember the "look out for motorbikes" bollox...).


It was advanced training which covered situational awareness and emergency braking which started to switch on the lightbulb for me. (see http://geoffjames.blogspot.com/2010/08/memorable-motorcycling-moments.html ) for the personal impact it had). It also has a link to 2 great YouTube videos on situational awareness.

It's only a personal opinion, but I think that advertising campaigns are largely a waste of time - it has to be practical, hands-on exposure.

[shrub]

While I agree that training will more than likely improve any rider I wonder what they class as an "experienced" rider - a 40yr weekend warrior that only rides in fine weather when the wife allows or a 2yr rider who commutes and rides recreationally in ALL weathers every day?

I liken motorcycling to flying - they both require a high degree of skill, are both unforgiving of operator error and are both unforgiving of poor maintenance. And when either goes wrong, blood is spilt; whereas a car can have a major crash resulting in zero injury. Therefore I believe we can learn a lot from pilots.

1. License based on hours - I spent 10 years training as a pilot, but I only had around 20 hours so never got my license (bikes were more fun and cheaper).

2. Student riders complete a logbook of experience - before you get your license you need to have recorded time on the open road, in the dark, in rain, heavy traffic etc. This would be bloody hard to enforce, so it would be an honesty thing and would get the message across that you need to know how to ride in a range of conditions.

3. Before getting a license you need to complete rider training, including classroom. The test would not just be restricted to knowing the road code, but knowing about the importance of the front brake, countersteering, target fixation, situational awareness, ATGATT, machine condition etc.

4. All motorcyclists are required to ride a minimum amount per annum to keep their licenses, and if you haven't ridden for more than (say) 3 years you are required to complete a refresher course. My mother in law has a full motorcycle license! In the 70s she rode a 125 to work for a couple of years, yet is legally entitled to ride an R1.

5. Getting involved in a "rider at fault" crash where the police attend would require an assessment by an independent examiner and potentially retraining. I once knew a woman who thought that the back brake was the one to use, and had 2 crashes because of it, so this would identify situations like that.

6. Have a seperate class of license for high performance and big bikes (eg Rockets and M109s) that includes a minimum of 5 years regular riding and skill and attitude assessment. I was talking to a guy the other day who had just got his full and is in the market for a new BMW1000RR. He's in his late 40s, had never really ridden until his mates all got bikes, he saw the toys, heard about the rallies and decided he should join them. He is well coined up and has a nearly new HSV GTS thing and a kick arse jet ski, so he wanted the fastest bike on the block.

[Blackbird]

I liken motorcycling to flying - they both require a high degree of skill, are both unforgiving of operator error and are both unforgiving of poor maintenance. And when either goes wrong, blood is spilt; whereas a car can have a major crash resulting in zero injury. Therefore I believe we can learn a lot from pilots.


When I stuck that bit of research from Nottingham University on several bike forums to to get feedback, the strongest positive response was in fact from people with flying experience. Competitive sailing also uses the same anticipatory skill sets as pilots and motorcycling. Well, motorcycling SHOULD use the same skill sets but the high level of derisory comments from other forums might indicate that testosterone is alive and well:yes: (and preventing continual upskilling)

[Genestho]

What does it cost to get a pilot's license?

[avgas]

Remove the helmet law - with any luck the dumb ones will die off quicker

[Usarka]

What does it cost to get a pilot's license?

Heaps, but you can your full licence after 50 hours.

[shrub]

What does it cost to get a pilot's license?

A bloody fortune. You need 50 hours, plus a lot of ancilliary costs, and instructed flight time cost around $120 an hour when I was flying (around 20 years ago). At the time I was between bikes (small children etc) and it dawned on me that the cost of a flying license was about the same as a good bike, and a bike I could ride whenever I wanted, I didn't need an airfield to ride it and if you think bikes are expensive to own, aircraft take it to a new league!

[p.dath]

I responded to a question similar to this a while ago.

To decide to improve things you first have to work out what you want the end result to be. Then you can take steps to get there.

For me, I started by defining what a good "road user" is. I found the answers where independent on what type of transport you used.

So if you asked me, all road users - not just motorcyclists - should receive training to help them achieve the attached qualities. Note that not many of these qualities are skill related.

This is, of course, my personal opinion.