Old doddery couple or give way rule.

[javawocky]

There has been some debate around the office this morning regarding a video I shared of an old couple pulling out in front of me. I thought it was just old age setting in, but some, who lives around those parts said they had right of way.

What do you think? :corn:

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[MSTRS]

The red car has right of way?
FUCK - NO !!!

[Camshaft]

another 5 star example of driving in nz

[superman]

GOD NO! You were moving on the road, they were pulling onto the road from stationary. Thereby your right of way.

Anyone at your work who says otherwise go and tell them to resit their bloody license if they'd do that sort of thing!!!!

Giveway in that situation is so logical it's insane people would think that the red car had right of way! :facepalm:

[Tunahunter]

I sure that you had the right of way but seeing that the red car signalled his/her intentions, and there was a reasonable gap to your vehicle; common courtesy would have you letting them in without standing on the horn - I'm sure that you did that eh?

[javawocky]

I sure that you had the right of way but seeing that the red car signalled his/her intentions, and there was a reasonable gap to your vehicle; common courtesy would have you letting them in without standing on the horn - I'm sure that you did that eh?

I stood on the pegs does that count?

[MSTRS]

I sure that you had the right of way but seeing that the red car signalled his/her intentions, and there was a reasonable gap to your vehicle; common courtesy would have you letting them in without standing on the horn - I'm sure that you did that eh?

Would they have tried it on if our OP was in a truck?

[sil3nt]

Of course they had to give way but they did pull in to a reasonably sized gap and you had plenty of time to change your speed.

I generally don't mind if people pull out like this car has done but what fucks me off is when they don't accelerate after pulling out and just dawdle down the road at 30.

[Banditbandit]

The red car has right of way?
FUCK - NO !!!

What he said ...


I sure that you had the right of way but seeing that the red car signalled his/her intentions, and there was a reasonable gap to your vehicle; common courtesy would have you letting them in without standing on the horn - I'm sure that you did that eh?

I disagree ... the gap was not "reasonable" the bike was way too close when the car moved ... the bike is at the end of the white line from the intersection when the car moves ... that's really close ... the driver was chancing it on the assumption that the rider would not want to hit the car and would brake ...


Would they have tried it on if our OP was in a truck?

EXACTLY !!!

[MSTRS]

The amount of room required before pulling out in a give way situation may be subjective.
Rule of thumb is that if the vehicle being pulled out in front of has to brake, then there wasn't enough room. That is assuming said braker wasn't speeding...

[Latte]

What he said ...



I disagree ... the gap was not "reasonable" the bike was way too close when the car moved ... the driver was chancing it on the assumption that the rider would not want to hit the car and would brake ...

+1 - And if there was an accident, all chances are the rider would end up with "Failure to stop short" from the police.

[bogan]

fuck no!, and they gave way to the suv in front of you. And please educate your co-workers, idiots who don't know such basic road rules are accidents waiting to happen.

[oldrider]

I disagree ... the gap was not "reasonable" the bike was way too close when the car moved ... the bike is at the end of the white line from the intersection when the car moves ... that's really close ... the driver was chancing it on the assumption that the rider would not want to hit the car and would brake ...

On the evidence that's the way I see it too! (happens all the time)

All the more reason for us (motorcyclists) to practice defensive driving "all" the time!

The general "attitude" is that we are not "legitimate and legal" road users and that the general public will side with them when it all goes to shit!

It is that "attitude" that "we" have to focus on changing!

The public perception is the public reality and they will not change it on their own, we will have to do it for them! :yes:

So called people in positions of authority share the public perception and until that changes motorcyclists will never be regarded as serious, legitimate road users!

Example: Nick Smith and his ACC cronies! :doh:

[Timmeh:P]

Have had this happen to me a number of times at this exact junction.

They DO NOT have right of way!!!!

People pulling out of The Avenue are always impatient!! :angry:

[DEATH_INC.]

I'd like to see a law enforcement officers opinion on this.....to me, it looks like they are 'merging', they aren't crossing a line of any sort, and there's no give way or stop sign..... I'd say technically they had the right of way.
But then I could be wrong.....there's always a first time :)

[rickstv]

I use this intersection every morning. vehicles coming out of The Avenue have a give way sign. At this time of the morning they cross the north bound lane and sit by the median and most wait for a chance to merge. Some just barge in.

They absolutely don't have right of way.

[DEATH_INC.]

Would they have tried it on if our OP was in a truck?
Probably, ask any truckee how often this happens....

[superman]

I'd like to see a law enforcement officers opinion on this.....to me, it looks like they are 'merging', they aren't crossing a line of any sort, and there's no give way or stop sign..... I'd say technically they had the right of way.
But then I could be wrong.....there's always a first time :)

So if you're sitting in a median strip and then pull onto the road from stationary you have right of way over the moving vehicles because there is no give way or stop signs? :facepalm: Or pulling out from a parking position as well for that matter?!

[Timmeh:P]

I'd like to see a law enforcement officers opinion on this.....to me, it looks like they are 'merging', they aren't crossing a line of any sort, and there's no give way or stop sign..... I'd say technically they had the right of way.
But then I could be wrong.....there's always a first time :)

Just pulled this off the road code and also an Aerial shot of the junction. As it has happened to me a number of times (slamming on the anchors to avoid collision).

Rode Code:

If you are in a merge lane at an intersection:

- show you want to merge by signalling for at least three seconds
- move into a safe gap in the traffic
- adjust your speed and following distance.

Safe gap is the key here. They did not merge into a safe gap.

Looking at the aerial, it could be considered a merge lane, but it is a VERY short one at that.

[onearmedbandit]

Just think, if the OP had a gun mounted on the front of his bike instead of a camera, there would be no debate whatsoever.

[lone_slayer]

No way was that considered a safe merge. that could have very easily been nasty if you wernt so onto it... if you were a truck they would have no car cause a truck cant slow that quickly

[superman]

No way was that considered a safe merge. that could have very easily been nasty if you wernt so onto it... if you were a truck they would have no car cause a truck cant slow that quickly

Probably why they did it "ahh the bike will look after itself, he doesn't want to get hurt" :angry:

[Katman]

Probably why they did it "ahh the bike will look after itself, he doesn't want to get hurt" :angry:

Well he'd be silly if he did want to.

[avgas]

shit happens. You had 100m to slow down.
No major.
Buy a box a tissues you pussy.

Its not a case of right or wrong unless you are a cop, or they crash INTO you.

HTFU or sell up

[javawocky]

Buy a box a tissues you pussy. ... HTFU or sell up

... but, but they hhuuurt my feelings!!! :crybaby: ... I am so badly shaken after the incident I cant bring my self to start the death trap up :violin:

[Scuba_Steve]

I disagree ... the gap was not "reasonable" the bike was way too close when the car moved ... the bike is at the end of the white line from the intersection when the car moves ... that's really close ... the driver was chancing it on the assumption that the rider would not want to hit the car and would brake ...

I would have said the gap was "reasonable" but by the time the car made a move the gap was all but gone & no longer there let alone "reasonable" cause as you mentioned they didn't make a move till he was pretty much at the end of the turning bay.

[EJK]

The red car has right of way?
FUCK - NO !!!

+1</10char>

[Katman]

I think it was obvious fairly early in the piece that their intention was to merge into the gap.

The only trouble was, they did it at Grandad pace.

[cbfb]

They had to give way, no dispute about that, it's in the Road Code.

Giving way means you should not force an oncoming vehicle to take evasive action. It doesn't mean try and squeeze into the smallest gap, the guy behind can slow down.

You didn't look like you were riding that quickly.

Blatantly the red car didn't even bother looking. Just lucky you weren't closer.

If it were me I'd be reporting them for dodgy driving.

[buellbabe]

Yeah I would have been looking at that car thinking "bet that f**ker will pull into that gap in front of me at a snails pace"...its called defensive riding or expect every other road user to do dumb/discurteous things.

There was clearly a truck parked opposite the intersection...that makes the whole scenario unsafe in my opinion. But I'm pretty sure the driver would have thought that a bike was quite capable of moving out of the way for him.

Oh no ,wait a minute that implies that the driver SAW you and actually gave a shit... oops! my mistake!

I would be pissed off too but thats just all part of the daily risk we take riding our 'death machines'.
Still won't ever stop me!

[Bliksem]

You clearly slowed down when you saw the red car.

If you kept your speed steady the outcome would have been different.

[spajohn]

My folks are circa 70 or so, and told me of an older friend who pulled out of a supermarket, and subsequently was pulled up by a cop, because he had to brake / slow down...meaning that they did not leave a big enough gap / accelerated too slowly, just like in the OP's vid. The result...she was made to re-sit her driving test and I believe no longer has a license.

[neels]

They are in the wrong x2,

Not only have they failed to give way, they have also entered an intersection when their exit from is not clear.

Looking at the aerial shot, it's not a merging lane just a marked turning lane from the intersection so they shouldn't have been parked there in the first place.

And regarding failing to give way, my wife got pinged for this because a car 100m away from the intersection braked when she pulled out, so the cop following them ticketed her because she caused them to brake.

[C.Linnell]

*555 him - BJC544

[MSTRS]

My folks are circa 70 or so, and told me of an older friend who pulled out of a supermarket, and subsequently was pulled up by a cop, because he had to brake / slow down...meaning that they did not leave a big enough gap / accelerated too slowly, just like in the OP's vid. The result...she was made to re-sit her driving test and I believe no longer has a license.
Tick up one win...

They are in the wrong x2,

Not only have they failed to give way, they have also entered an intersection when their exit from is not clear.

Looking at the aerial shot, it's not a merging lane just a marked turning lane from the intersection so they shouldn't have been parked there in the first place.


We have the same sort of 'not-quite a merging lane' here, too. Routinely used by one, possibly two, cars at a time, as a holding point. Having to cross 2 lanes of traffic to enter the outside of two across from the give way - usually impossible to have 3 clear lanes at the same time.



And regarding failing to give way, my wife got pinged for this because a car 100m away from the intersection braked when she pulled out, so the cop following them ticketed her because she caused them to brake.
Need more info to know whether cop was reasonable or not. Depends on speed zone for a start. Also, was the braking driver a Nervous Nellie, for instance.

[avgas]

... but, but they hhuuurt my feelings!!! :crybaby: ... I am so badly shaken after the incident I cant bring my self to start the death trap up :violin:
Clearly
Go secretly hug a honda rider.

[cheshirecat]

Get your wok mates to point out the road rules that apply and run a bet on it

[DEATH_INC.]

Looking at the aerial, it could be considered a merge lane, but it is a VERY short one at that.

Ah, that pic makes it clear, there is a broken white line, so no merge as such (they had to cross a line/change lanes) so I retract what I said earlier :shutup: , they DON'T have the right of way. :facepalm:

[Banditbandit]

shit happens. You had 100m to slow down.
No major.
Buy a box a tissues you pussy.

Its not a case of right or wrong unless you are a cop, or they crash INTO you.

HTFU or sell up


CRAP ... the bike was at rhe end of the white line extending back from the intersection ... they are alla stadard length .. go and stand on one and ask yourself: If I was here on a motorbike doing 50 kph would I want a car pulling into the space in front of me from a standing start? The distance is way way way less than 100 metres.

Sure he saw the car from that distance - but it is reasonable to assume that the car would wait for the bike to go past - of course any rider worth his or her licence would be wary of the car - and avoid an accident ... as happened here ...

It's still the car's fault by a country mile ...

[martybabe]

Absolutely wrong, I just think the old fella decided to go and to hell with the consequences...as they do. To merge safely you should not cause an oncoming driver to swerve or slow down. He was gonna do it if you'd been traveling at 30 or 100k.

On a similar theme, has any one come across the practice of ignoring the filter lane altogether when turning right in the above scenario, as in crossing your lane at 90 degrees to you then accelerating (hopefully) along the shoulder and joining from the left instead of the right. It seems to be getting more and more common around these parts and it's a bloody lethal practice. On a 100k stretch of road you are faced with a virtually stationary vehicle sideways across your lane.

Hard to explain but it's like the oldies above but instead of crawling into your lane, they totally block your lane first and then crawl off :facepalm:

[That looks like fun]

Sure he saw the car from that distance - but it is reasonable to assume that the car would wait for the bike to go past - of course any rider worth his or her licence would be wary of the car - and avoid an accident ... as happened here ...

It's still the car's fault by a country mile ...

Is it reasonable to crash into an idiot?:blink: What the driver of the red car did was not excusable in anyway shape or form. Totally in the wrong :shit: So what did he do? He (assuming its not some Wendy driving:facepalm:) moved into the merging (or whatever it is thingy) gave way to the first vehicle then merged with the traffic. What did he do wrong? Never saw the bike? Never accelerated fast enough? didn't wait for a large enough gap to carry out the merge safely? :whocares:
Biker down and possibly out, shaken Wendy late for work. :violin:
Actions I saw in Video, rider realized car had pulled out in front of him, moved left and braked (correct me if there was more) :violin:
Camera clearly shows red car sitting in intersection, first alarm rings!!!!!, plan action, check traffic behind, prepare to carry out plan. Assess all risk,s escape paths etc. Truck blocking left side of road, make sure moving left wasn't part of your plan :facepalm: car starts to move forward slowly, put plan in action, slow down merge in behind car :sunny:. Breath in, Breath out .......... repeat. Simple as that.

[javawocky]

Absolutely wrong, I just think the old fella decided to go and to hell with the consequences...as they do. To merge safely you should not cause an oncoming driver to swerve or slow down. He was gonna do it if you'd been traveling at 30 or 100k. ...

I think the drivers were completely oblivious to anything else - or were too old to care. I followed them over the bridge at 40kph (indicated :facepalm: ) then carefully passed them when the road splits in two. I would probably have given them the KB finger when passing if they were younger but I sighed and moved on...

[MSTRS]

Get your wok mates to point out the road rules that apply and run a bet on it

Oh yeah - 'they' are worse than old people...:shutup:

[Max Preload]

There has been some debate around the office this morning regarding a video I shared of an old couple pulling out in front of me. I thought it was just old age setting in, but some, who lives around those parts said they had right of way.I would suggest that anyone that says they had RoW have their license chopped into little bits and be forced to take the bus forever because they're clearly a fuckwit and shouldn't be driving.

The stupid old coot crossed a dashed line into another lane - he has no RoW whatsoever under any circumstances.

There's no way that was a safe merge either.

[avgas]

Sure he saw the car from that distance - but it is reasonable to assume that the car would wait for the bike to go past - of course any rider worth his or her licence would be wary of the car - and avoid an accident ... as happened here ...
It's still the car's fault by a country mile ...
Can I get an amen! PRAISE THE LORD AND OUR LADY
230833

but isn't she also the mother of all fuck ups?

Fault, liability.....all technicalities for lawyers to sort out.
The key is to not be dead when they do so - otherwise its kinda irrelevant.

[george formby]

Is it reasonable to crash into an idiot?:blink: What the driver of the red car did was not excusable in anyway shape or form. Totally in the wrong :shit: So what did he do? He (assuming its not some Wendy driving:facepalm:) moved into the merging (or whatever it is thingy) gave way to the first vehicle then merged with the traffic. What did he do wrong? Never saw the bike? Never accelerated fast enough? didn't wait for a large enough gap to carry out the merge safely? :whocares:
Biker down and possibly out, shaken Wendy late for work. :violin:
Actions I saw in Video, rider realized car had pulled out in front of him, moved left and braked (correct me if there was more) :violin:
Camera clearly shows red car sitting in intersection, first alarm rings!!!!!, plan action, check traffic behind, prepare to carry out plan. Assess all risk,s escape paths etc. Truck blocking left side of road, make sure moving left wasn't part of your plan :facepalm: car starts to move forward slowly, put plan in action, slow down merge in behind car :sunny:. Breath in, Breath out .......... repeat. Simple as that.

Which was indicating right & started to move as the rider came up on the red car. I would not be suprised if the driver of the car was paying far more attention to that truck than the rider, possibly causing their error in pulling out at that time or being waved out. Either way, not a nice situation for the OP & definitely a case of slowing right down & maintaining space.

Glad i live in the country, not sure if my nerves would cope with a commute like that at my age.
T'was a good result though, no harm done.

[george formby]

Which was indicating right & started to move as the rider came up on the red car. I would not be suprised if the driver of the car was paying far more attention to that truck than the rider, possibly causing their error in pulling out at that time or being waved out. Either way, not a nice situation for the OP & definitely a case of slowing right down & maintaining space.

Glad i live in the country, not sure if my nerves would cope with a commute like that at my age.
T'was a good result though, no harm done.

I'm talking out me date, no indicator & no movement but still a big distraction.
Best I keep my training wheels on.

[KiWiP]

Looking at the aerial, it could be considered a merge lane, but it is a VERY short one at that.


Road code: Merging
Sometimes on a road, two lanes will merge into one lane.

The lanes merge where the broken lane lines stop. It's important to make sure that all vehicles from both lanes have plenty of space in which to merge safely.

From the image the broken lines do not stop therefore it isn't a merge lane. (I think it's shit road marking and should have a stop marking so you go across and stop before pulling into the traffic.)


Road code:
Important
Giving way means that the road user you're giving way to (whether they are a driver, cyclist, pedestrian or any other kind of road user) doesn't need to stop, brake or slow down, swerve or take any other evasive action to avoid you.

Road code:
What are the Give Way rules?
If you are turning at an intersection, give way to all vehicles not turning.

They were in the wrong (IMHO)

[Berries]

Old doddery couple or give way rule........
........you asked. The former. Old people don't have the neck movement to see you at that angle. Any car stopped like that is waiting for a gap. Assume they won't see you and cover the brakes, as you did.

The car is clearly in the wrong, it is an intersection, not a merge area. You'd be in the right if you did get bowled but that is no consolation when your leg bends where it shouldn't. Your co-workers need educating.

[DangerMouseNZ]

I disagree ... the gap was not "reasonable" the bike was way too close when the car moved ... the bike is at the end of the white line from the intersection when the car moves ... that's really close ... the driver was chancing it on the assumption that the rider would not want to hit the car and would brake ...


I would agree! I am guessing its the same here as in the UK.. a resonable gap is defined by being able to pull out without causing another road user to stamp on the brakes... definately not the case here!

[davebullet]

Similar to a pet peeve of mine, is drivers who brake when driving onto a motorway on ramp. Why the fuck do they do that and make the speed differential greater which makes it even harder to merge.

Full license driving tests should be done in peak our traffic to test the mettle and awareness of the driver.

[Scuba_Steve]

Similar to a pet peeve of mine, is drivers who brake when driving onto a motorway on ramp. Why the fuck do they do that and make the speed differential greater which makes it even harder to merge.

Full license driving tests should be done in peak our traffic to test the mettle and awareness of the driver.

Im with you on that people should know how to merge, If I had it my way that would be a major part of you licence test any major hesitation/slow down or attempt to give way would be an instant fail

[sinfull]

The only trouble was, they did it at Grandad pace.
+1 is what a gas pedal is for ! But then again M/C was gaining on car ahead of it and more than likely had a large gap behind it by then, so (add an ASS out of U and ME here) the old diddy prob never saw no grille coming and thought he/she had the road !


Oh no ,wait a minute that implies that the driver SAW you oops! my mistake!

+2 No way that driver saw him i recon !!! The bike didn't have a fuck off grille to look for !


If I was here on a motorbike doing 50 kph Ya really thunk he was doing 50 lol sure he wasn't racing reclessly through there or he'd of been fucked, but 50?

Sure he saw the car from that distance - but it is reasonable to ass out of u and me Lol loved the first reaction, to flick left (arrrrg big twuck) Hmmm mabey not, then on the piks ! Driver Prob still had no idea OP was there by then or for sometime after !

[Katman]

All this "it was clearly the old fuckers fault" misses the point somewhat.

These things happen and it's our responsibility to ensure that we are able to compensate for them. (As was the case in this instance).

[Tunahunter]

[QUOTE=Banditbandit;1129974480]What he said ...



I disagree ... the gap was not "reasonable" the bike was way too close when the car moved ... the bike is at the end of the white line from the intersection when the car moves ... that's really close ... the driver was chancing it on the assumption that the rider would not want to hit the car and would brake ...



You are right of course BUT, to avoid accidents one needs to drive defensively, and Javawocky did that pretty well.

I contend that if the joker in the car was signalling, there was a good chance that he would go - christ, this situation occurs every day and unless you are in a huge hurry to get somewhere why make a big deal out of it. Get on a four-lane roundabout in Jakarta - cars signal and the car behind them expect them to jump in - its crazy but it works

[MSTRS]

All this "it was clearly the old fuckers fault" misses the point somewhat.

These things happen and it's our responsibility to ensure that we are able to compensate for them. (As was the case in this instance).

:hitcher: Actually, it's every motorists responsibility to be able to compensate for shit like this...just the stakes are higher for 'us' to do so.

[javawocky]

Lol loved the first reaction, to flick left (arrrrg big twuck) Hmmm mabey not, then on the piks ! ...

Exactly what went through my mind. First instinct give yourself room to react - flick left - then brake as needed. But yes I had a little adjustment to make when a truck was blocking my escape route.

The guy in the office who raised this point took a video of the intersection this morning on his phone showing a few dodgy moves, he seams reluctant to give me the vid to post though, will keep leaning on him.

[DangerMouseNZ]

Similar to a pet peeve of mine, is drivers who brake when driving onto a motorway on ramp. Why the fuck do they do that and make the speed differential greater which makes it even harder to merge.

Full license driving tests should be done in peak our traffic to test the mettle and awareness of the driver.

One of the most annoying things ever.. Why o why do people feel it i safer to join a motorway going slower than all the other traffic around them :angry:

[Banditbandit]

All this "it was clearly the old fuckers fault" misses the point somewhat.

These things happen and it's our responsibility to ensure that we are able to compensate for them. (As was the case in this instance).

No. It's exactly the point! The questions were asked "who has the right of way? Who is in the wrong". The answer The Red Car is exactly on the point.

I agree with you - it's our responsibility to look after our own safety - and from teh video the rider did just that ... don't highjack threads to make them about motorcycle safety ... :violin:

[javawocky]

Exhibit C - Vid of the intersection with some more interesting merging...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fu6rZrlS8Pw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[rickstv]

That type of merging takes place every morning at that intersection. May not be acceptable anywhere else though.
Southbound traffic accept it, though some vehicles from the avenue charge right in.

[avgas]

Get a hobby man. Your turning into a trainspotter.

Last person whom tried to fix NZ drivers by posting on KB died of a lonely heart.....and possibly old age.

[R-Soul]

There has been some debate around the office this morning regarding a video I shared of an old couple pulling out in front of me. I thought it was just old age setting in, but some, who lives around those parts said they had right of way.



By my logic, any car that moves into a lane in which another car is going straight (i.e. moving into into "their lane") nees to give way or make sure that there is space enough for them. And also at least get up to speed before joining the damn lane.

Its the stupid NZ exceptions that muddy the waters. In gerenral there are two rues that should apply.

1) When moving into anothers lane, give way.
2) When turning, make sure there is a gap for you to turn into - i.e don't rely on others goodwill.

A person joining a motorway from an onramp must speed up to ensure they dont hinder traffic (which is why I think these on ramp traffic lights are the dumbest things ever), and the must move into a gap. If they cannot do this, they cannot drive and should not have a license.

[awa355]

On the evidence that's the way I see it too! (happens all the time)

All the more reason for us (motorcyclists) to practice defensive driving "all" the time!

The general "attitude" is that we are not "legitimate and legal" road users and that the general public will side with them when it all goes to shit!

It is that "attitude" that "we" have to focus on changing!

The public perception is the public reality and they will not change it on their own, we will have to do it for them! :yes:

So called people in positions of authority share the public perception and until that changes motorcyclists will never be regarded as serious, legitimate road users!

Example: Nick Smith and his ACC cronies! :doh:

This has been the public attitude that has prevailed since the sixties. For half a century nothing has changed. just a part of motorcycling that is always going to exist. We have to accept that attitude and ride around it.

Believe it or not, back further, in the days of the teddy boys, Bodggies etc, ( fifties), there was mention of banning leather jackets as they were a symbol of anti social attitudes.