F1GP [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

crashe

20th June 2005, 14:19

Damn.... I forgot it was on.. and I always watch it..
Copied and pasted it over... damn it must have been a boring race to watch.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Red one-two and a Jordan podium as Michelin withdraw

The US Grand Prix began to go wrong when all of the 14 Michelin runners came into the pits at the end of the green flag lap, leaving only Michael Schumacher on ‘pole position’ from Ferrari team mate Rubens Barrichello, the two Jordans of Tiago Monteiro and Narain Karthikeyan, and the two Minardis of Christijan Albers and Patrick Friesacher in front of the shocked 130,000 crowd.

After Ralf Schumacher’s left rear tyre failure on Friday afternoon, Michelin advised their runners that they could not guarantee their tyres for the race. Several ideas were mooted and the Michelin teams agreed to let the Bridgestone runners start ahead of them on the grid and to forego any championship points provided a chicane was erected in Turn 13.

However, the FIA had already stated that changing the track layout was not an option, informing Michelin that their teams could either use their existing tyres and run more slowly through 13, make tyre changes on safety grounds if necessary, or they could start with new tyres and risk being penalised for breaking the regulations.

At the start of the six-car race, Schumacher duly jumped ahead of Barrichello, with Monteiro third and Albers momentarily ousting Karthikeyan for fourth before the Jordan driver asserted himself.

Barrichello made the first of two stops on lap 24, but Schumacher’s stop a lap later occupied 16.8s as a left rear tyre had been damaged by a bottle thrown on to the track by an irate spectator and had to be changed. Barrichello thus led and kept the initiative until his next stop on lap 49.

Again Schumacher stopped a lap later, but this time he was at the end of the pit lane exit, where it feeds into Turn 1, at the very moment that Barrichello arrived there. The Brazilian was obliged to run off the road to avoid a collision, and after that the result was sealed.

Monteiro ran third throughout, with Karthikeyan, Albers and three-stopping Friesacher spread out.

Since nobody else went far enough to be classified, they were the only points scorers, and the race matched the 1961 Dutch Grand Prix as the only one in which all starters have finished.

Schumacher’s 10 point haul brings him up to third, behind Fernando Alonso on 59, and Kimi Raikkonen on 37. Barrichello moves to fourth, ahead of Jarno Trulli’s 27, with 29. Ferrari rise to joint second in the team standings on 63 points.

Lou Girardin

20th June 2005, 14:56

This could be the final straw for the FIA running F1.
They should hang Mosely and Ecclestone by their heels and let the Indy crowd at them.
Not to mention the excellent PR this represents for Michelin.

wkid_one

20th June 2005, 15:27

TonyB

20th June 2005, 16:53

Did you hear Ecclestenes comments about Danicke Patrick from Indy?

He said

"You know, I've got one of these wonderful ideas that women should be all dressed in white like all the other domestic appliances,"

Classic!
Yep, he made that comment the day before the race. I therefore call what happened today KARMAH.
What a fricken debarcle- I don't normally watch the F1 but it was on as I was having my brekky. Couldn't believe what was happening! Hysterical- all these blokes running around the grids with trolley loads of tyres. Ecclestene and co looking like they were about to explode. Then the arrogant little fecker says you can either race slowly or pull out, those are the options. So ALL the Michelin teams pull into the pits and park their cars on the warmup lap :rofl:
Then just to show how farcical F1 is, Ferrari ran the race according to team orders, with Barracello obediantly following Schumaker around despite the fact they were running slow pace!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

dveus

20th June 2005, 16:59

as a plus though, it's been ages since all the cars that started finished.

Motu

20th June 2005, 17:29

It was a show of power - Michelin saying ''look what your stupid fucking rules have done,we are taking our ball home and you can play with yourself'' and the FIA (Bernie) saying 'yeah,well you just go and do that,we don't need you,we got our own ball so there!' What a sad little spat to put before millions of viewers and gate paying spectators,Kimi and Alonso seeing their Championship race in jeapody and DC being robbed of what could of been a great race for him,dumb FIA,real dumb what you have done to F1...Bernie needs scalping,I really,really hate his hairdoo.

Ghost Lemur

20th June 2005, 22:37

I've been a F1 and Ferrari fan for as long as I can remember.

But to say I hate what the FIA has been doing for more than a couple of years with fucking with the rules would be an understatement.

Now their looking to change more rules (add more bs) so it's "cheaper for the teams".

It's the FIA that needs the overhaul not F1.

Now it looks like FIM and Dorna have been to the fucktard Burnie's school of race management and are starting to fuck with the rules just coz they can.

More and more reason to savour events like the IOMTT before fuckers like these get there greasy greedy tenticles on them.

gav

20th June 2005, 23:04

Kickaha

21st June 2005, 08:06

Never happen in motorcycling, would it? Or would it? Anyone remember what happened at the 1989 GP500 at Misano, OK, go dig out your Motocourse, rep points to the correct answer, what happened, who won etc....

After an aborted start all the Factory riders and few non factory riders refused to race as they claimed the track to dangerous in the wet and Pierfrancesco Chili won with only 5 finishers, intersting that a lot of the bikes were on Michelin there as well

Lou Girardin

21st June 2005, 11:04

Then just to show how farcical F1 is, Ferrari ran the race according to team orders, with Barracello obediantly following Schumaker around despite the fact they were running slow pace!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Barrechello led after the first pitstops until Shuey nearly took him out leaving the pits. There was nothing obediant about it.
Near the end they were down to 1m 12's which was real race pace.
It was farcical but not because of anything Ferrrari did,

sAsLEX

21st June 2005, 11:19

Barrechello led after the first pitstops until Shuey nearly took him out leaving the pits. ,

replay showed that barichello entered the corner way too fast and couldn't scrub off the speed to use a different line due to micheal being on the race line

Coldkiwi

21st June 2005, 12:51

TwoSeven

21st June 2005, 13:00

Barrechello led after the first pitstops until Shuey nearly took him out leaving the pits. There was nothing obediant about it.
Near the end they were down to 1m 12's which was real race pace.
It was farcical but not because of anything Ferrrari did,

Except the fact that the commentators recorded the voice comms where barrechello was told to stop racing after the 2nd pit. Dont think ferrari wanted anyone to hear that.

TwoSeven

21st June 2005, 13:05

Michelin could pack up their toys in a huff but it'd be no real loss to the racing as they've been a single tyre series before haven't they? (certainly many other open wheel classes are).
personally I think this must be the most single high profile muck up in the entire History of the Company! I dare say Michelin will have fired more than a few employees over that mess

I dont think so, it was never a michelin problem, quite simply the FIA prevents testing at circuits during the near (other than the nominated one and official tests), and the tires are made up to 12 months before.

The only way michlen was going to find out there was a tire problem was by examining them on friday - which they did.

Not their problem that the race director and FIA officials wouldnt allow a track layout change on the friday when everyone was told of the problem.

Personally I think that adds more momentum to the breakaway series - which to be honest, I would support. Its not that hasnt happened before - american indycar was also a spinoff from F1 - they froze the rules at the time and spun off the series because rising costs meant teams couldnt compete.

Motu

21st June 2005, 13:39

I think it was a single tyre supplier because Bridgestone were the only ones in it after Goodyear pulled out.It was obvious Bridgestone were putting more effort into tyres for Ferrari than the other teams,that's why there was the big exodus to Michelin when they came on board,now Ferrari are practicaly the only Bridgestone team,the other 2 teams are practicaly no use for data purposes....this is why Ferrari have been so far behind this year.Trouble is when Michelin drop the ball it effects so many teams...if the roles were reversed it would only really be Ferrari that would suffer....then any action from the FIA would see accusations of Ferrari favoritism.This is a track they can't test on...and then a surface change from the 4 previous years,they got it wrong...maybe,no one really knows,they just had say that the tyres couldn't be trusted.

Brian d marge

21st June 2005, 14:00

After an aborted start all the Factory riders and few non factory riders refused to race as they claimed the track to dangerous in the wet and Pierfrancesco Chili won with only 5 finishers, intersting that a lot of the bikes were on Michelin there as well

I remember that, in fact I have te tape somewhere ....His name was Sir Mudd for a long time after that ,,,then he appeared in superbikes ,,,
A lot of gp riders were well pissed with him over that ...

The was one privateeer who on the restart went out on slicks ,,,,( for the start money) ,,,first corner ,,,,plop ..

Stephen
BTW
from what I read ..they havent been able to test at Us of A So fridays incident was a surprise, they couldnt reproduce the problem and said to the teams they couldnt garrantee safety ,,,
I hold the Mr Ecclestone responsible ,,,( for everything ,,global warming , the westbank everything )
I mean a track change wouldnt have been a problem, ,,As the thems the rules attitude ...made the fans who paid A LOT of money ( yer arse ecclestone ) get short changed ,,and I bet they didnt get there money back either ,,,,,
You paid to watch star wars ..but we only have lassie go home ,,,so we are playing that instead .....
yeah right

Kickaha

21st June 2005, 14:19

21st June 2005, 15:14

I thought that was so funny! :rofl: :rofl:

All those pissed off bogans chucking cans on the track :rofl:

That Guy

21st June 2005, 15:47

I dont think so, it was never a michelin problem, quite simply the FIA prevents testing at circuits during the near (other than the nominated one and official tests), and the tires are made up to 12 months before.

The only way michlen was going to find out there was a tire problem was by examining them on friday - which they did.

Not their problem that the race director and FIA officials wouldnt allow a track layout change on the friday when everyone was told of the problem.

.

Apart from the fact they have been to Indy before and knew damn well there was banking on the circuit, and they knew they had to consider this into their tyre design. Therefore it was a Michelin problem, and mistake, that furthermore Bridgestone did not make.

It is also the fault of the teams - in a multi-million dollar agreement like they have; you ensure your suppliers have contingencies in place in case of disasters like they had. You'd make sure that if your supplier was going to bring a new tyre design to a track not yet tested, that they have some old proven designs availble to use if the new unproven design failed. You would make sure your multi-million dollar investment (ie everything apart from the tyres) was protected from idiotic planning by a key supplier, by way of contractual agreements. Wouldn't you.

Poor, poor planning. Shame on you Michelin and shame on you respective team's management.

Brian d marge

21st June 2005, 16:23

Yup
Still blaming everything on Ecclestone..the plight of the pigmys ,,,Hubble telescopes battery problems ...

Its seems to me that after reading the FIA statement and the testing alowances, It all ecclestones fault ,,

No ,,,They can test at any of the European tracks if the pay costs , there is a six week summer testing ban and all that

But it must be said that you run what you brung ...and at the end of the day the driver with the best package and luck will win.

Though The problem as I see it is there was no testing in USA ...and especially with a high banked track ...THATS a no brainer ,...The only track like this and they cant test ( the rulz says European tracks) ...

So its not Michelins fault all they could do is have a stab in the dark ,,,,as to tyre compound ,,, and its not FIA ( at this point ) as they said you run what you brung and we cant change the track as We cant garrentee safety ..
Its the fault of the Dick who allowed the usa Race to go ahead without the teams being allowed to test ....( correct me if I am wrong but I read European tracks only )

Me...Knowing my tyres werent up to It I would have raced and slowed for the turn ( you can block) and accepted the result
You get nought for not crossing that finish line .... ( I have made that decision so know how it feels ...1 hour to go on a enduro with a completely shagged tyre Split and no valve ,,,well I ran it on the rims for an hour ...and was second ! )

At the end of the day...there were the fans who as I said paid big money to see F1 and got screwed while ecclestone laughs all the way to the leeds ( bank)
As anyone who has been to an F1 will know those tickets aint cheap ....

:motu: to u ecclestone

Stephen

Lou Girardin

21st June 2005, 16:26

Except the fact that the commentators recorded the voice comms where barrechello was told to stop racing after the 2nd pit. Dont think ferrari wanted anyone to hear that.

Ferrari allowed the pit/car conversations to be broadcast for the first time. Advising a driver to maintain position is not the same as team orders, just commonsense to avoid them taking each other out.

TwoSeven

21st June 2005, 16:53

It was a Michelin problem,put quite simply they bought a tyre to the track that wasn't up to the job

The FIA gave three different options to allow them to race and the Michelin shod teams declined to go with any of them

They offered to bring new tires out. But as I said, the tires are made 12 months in advance and the teams had not tested with the new tires - so their cars would have been even more unsafe (and the same problem with the weak sidewall loading was found).

I dont know what FIA options your talking about. The FIA are claiming in their press release that Michelin brought the wrong tires to the race. But anyone who knows anything about the race will note that the fault was found in the tires as a result of xraying them after ralph shoemakers crash.

The FIA's proposal was that the Michelin teams basically ran their cars slower than the bridgestone teams and if they tried to go fast, the FIA would penalise the drivers. I dont think thats fair for all.

Basically the FIA are bullshitting everyone.

Further to events at the 2005 United States Grand Prix, representatives of the seven Michelin teams have been summoned to a hearing of the FIA World Motor Sport Council to be held in Paris on Wednesday, June 29, 2005.

We'll find out then what the result will be.

Kickaha

21st June 2005, 19:29

Tyres made twelve months in advance? I doubt that very much as if you have everything there a tyre can be built in hours and there'd be no point in having them sitting around that long

Michelin said they could fly a different type of tyre out for the race but they still couldn't state with any certainty they would be safe

As for the three options have a look here I cant be bothered wading through it all to find it again
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70463

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/190605-02.html

although there's a few pages to get through to find the right bits

And another that relates to itl
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70519

gav

21st June 2005, 22:12

After an aborted start all the Factory riders and few non factory riders refused to race as they claimed the track to dangerous in the wet and Pierfrancesco Chili won with only 5 finishers, intersting that a lot of the bikes were on Michelin there as well
Yip, Chilli was racing for Italian Roberto Gallinas HB Honda team, his team mate that weekend was Flyin' Fred Merkel, in one of his few GP starts. Poor Chilli was caught between a rock and a hard place, Merkels bike shit itself and he misased the race, but yeah Chillis 500 career was abit down hill after that, two years later he was back on a 250 before ending up continuing his career in World Superbike. As for tyres being made 12 months in advance :rofl: The FIA actually had an oval track lined up for a tyre test session in Europe,but only Bridgestone turned up :whistle: , also Bridgestone had the advantage of Firestones input after running the Indy 500. The track had apparently been relaid prior to the start of the season and was more abrasive than in the past, which probably caught Michelin out.

TwoSeven

21st June 2005, 23:00

Tyres made twelve months in advance? I doubt that very much as if you have everything there a tyre can be built in hours and there'd be no point in having them sitting around that long

It takes up to 12 hours to make a single tire (although they are made on a production line). They have to make 4 tires per car + 4 spare on race day * 4 compounds (soft, hard, inter and wet) * 3 days * 14 cars. That works out at about 1300 odd tires (although they will only fly out half that number).

There are 15 race weekends this year, meaning they have to make potentially nearly 20,000 tires per year (again they'll only make half that number or slightly less than half). Race season starts in feb, so including testing, tire development, car development and all the other things they need to do, its nearly 12 months before that tire work is started.

Each circuit requires a different tread compound, so they cant just make a huge batch, they have to change the process for each batch of tires. Once a batch is made a sample is sent to the teams, who then test with them and have to change the car depending on the tire - it affects grip, drive and basic handling. On the bigger teams, they will have tires specifically made for the drivers - which makes it even harder to change.

As it says in the press release, michelin discovered that the sidewall of the tires couldnt take the high lateral speed, neither could the backup tire (the hard compound). You cant just go back and make 400 odd completely new tires (about 120 just for race day) at a snap of a finger. Whats worse is the tires cant be changed when they wear, like they used to - they have to last the whole race which weakens the tire even more.

Neither can you tell the drivers to put on untested tires - they cars just wouldnt work with them, they'd be crashing all over the place due to busted suspension and the like.

The only options they have are to say, dont use the tires, or change the circuit so there is no extreme lateral sideforce.

And as I pointed out in the FIA press release, they FIA is going after the teams, not michelin.

Brian d marge

22nd June 2005, 03:29

Production of tyres can/does staart in advance of 12 months depending on the series , ( its not just F1 they make tyres for) ..They do have the capacity for sort lead times depending on the series But ,,I suspect friday was a bit to short, as for 20 000 tyres , more 50 000 tyres For JUST f1 ......
I know thas thet lead time for aussie v8 s , but not for F1 I assume it would be more dynamic

Those who design for a living , will understand lead times ... IF I get the design right first time ( NOT) and the drawings are good ( NOT) and the jobbing engineer ( F1 Hamilton TOP BLOKE ) then I am looking at a min of 1 1/2 months min , usually its three or 4 and I dont have to start and stop a production line !!!
In fact I have just finished a project it was drawn on the 17th May( just checked ) and was Installed yesterday with testing this weekend ( seems ok ) that was a VERY simple flywheel .....

Nope Its all ecclestone fault and his little gremlin mosely .., From what I understand the track had been resurfaced, there was NO infomation about the track ( ie no testing or even info from other forms of M/sport) , So Michelin who tyres are a broad spectrum tyre , couldnt make an informed choice
Fim saying you should run what u brung ,,and if its crap tough ,,,

Me I blame FIM for not allowing testing AFTER the reseal OR allowing the race to go ahead at that circuit knowing there had been a surface change ,,,
As for its been there since 1909 ,,it WAS clay brick in 1909 Now its Shell mix ,,,,
One thing that DIDNT happen was all those fan who paid money DIDNT get their money refunded for only seeing 1/2 the movie ..( ie you paid to see a race between the top 15 teams and you saw one ferrari and mrs Jones in a robin reliant!!!:puke:

As a Fan of race ,,,eeer anything ... I want to see Fangio working the wheel.... Sideways ..... not over paid poofs , bring in control tires and brakes ... and set budgets ,,,hang on we could call it A1 ,,,
Im going to be rich , yes what a good idea ,,, luckly no one has thought of it yet :doh::doh:

Or better yet who cares ,,,lets watch Townley much more fun ,,,and much better racing to

Stephen

Motu

22nd June 2005, 07:55

I think Michelin has the technology to make tyres at the track,the cases are premade and they put on the tread compound for the day.But I think that was stopped with the one tyre rules,possibly one of the reasons the rule was done as it gave Michelin too much of an advantage....and they sure couldn't take that rig to Indy.

This discussion is all over the net of course,and F1 specific sites are discusing it over and over like vultures picking clean a carcase.One point of view put forward by someone I thought quite interesting - he looked at it as employer and employee....Michelin as employee supplying tyres made a mistake,realised it and fronted up to management and said we made a cock up...the next step as a money making business is for managment to step up to the plate and put forward a solution.The ultimate responsability rests with F1 Managment to deal with it...not pass the buck and lay the blame on tyre supplyers,teams or drivers.Michelin fucked up.....but the rules caused the fuck up to happen in the first place.

Lou Girardin

22nd June 2005, 08:22

Kickaha

22nd June 2005, 14:17

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the changes to tyres are almost always to the compound. This was a carcass fault.

Changes can be made to either carcass or compound as different construction used to be made for different tracks and cars

I think Michelin has the technology to make tyres at the track,the cases are premade and they put on the tread compound for the day.But I think that was stopped with the one tyre rules,possibly one of the reasons the rule was done as it gave Michelin too much of an advantage....and they sure couldn't take that rig to Indy.

You would still need some quite serious gear to be able to do that at the track to make enough tyres for all the teams,I wouldn't think it was possible but if you've you got any sources for that I'd be interested to see it

It takes up to 12 hours to make a single tire (although they are made on a production line). They have to make 4 tires per car + 4 spare on race day * 4 compounds (soft, hard, inter and wet) * 3 days * 14 cars. That works out at about 1300 odd tires (although they will only fly out half that number).

I'm well aware of what it take to make a tyre as I work for one of the companies involved and have done several tours throught the factory and had the contruction process explained to me and watched it being done

1300 tyres is a drop in the bucket for a company like Michelin the local Chch factory builds between 4000-5000 per 24 hour shift and it is quite small as factories go

Michelin two years ago said they could make rapid changes and build tyres within 3 days so I still have serious doubts about the 12 month figure, that may be from initial planning but I still doubt they would build that far in advance

From what I understand the track had been resurfaced

About 25% had been resurfaced including the corner they were talking about running at reduced speed,it was the improvement in grip at this corner and the increased speed through this corner the think was causing the problem

Suney

22nd June 2005, 14:27

The ultimate responsability rests with F1 Managment to deal with it...not pass the buck and lay the blame on tyre supplyers,teams or drivers.Michelin fucked up.....but the rules caused the fuck up to happen in the first place.
So are you saying that F1 management should of bent the rules to disadvantage the bridgestone runners? It's a professional sports with heaps and heaps of dollars invested into it, they can't just bend the rule everytime a team has a problem

Motu

22nd June 2005, 14:39

So are you saying that F1 management should of bent the rules to disadvantage the bridgestone runners? It's a professional sports with heaps and heaps of dollars invested into it, they can't just bend the rule everytime a team has a problem

What do you think all these rules changes are about? One tyre rule,one engine for 2 races,aerodynaics,qualifying? We just had another qualifying rule change - They haven't got a clue on how to fix F1 and are just throwing patches on left right and centre....with this level of imcompitance I see no problem in making up a new rule just for the day,it's no worse than what they've already been doing....

It wasn't me who put in that theory,I just think the comparrison to business,which is what F1 is after all,was a diffrent slant.

Motu

22nd June 2005, 14:52

Check out these shots of tyre deformation in T13,the first 2 last years Bridgestones,the last Fisichella's Renault in this years practice.The Michelin has a squarer shoulder and puts more heat into this area.Sure is some stress here.

Motu

22nd June 2005, 15:01

You would still need some quite serious gear to be able to do that at the track to make enough tyres for all the teams,I wouldn't think it was possible but if you've you got any sources for that I'd be interested to see it

Of course it takes some serious shit load of gear....but we are talking F1 and Michelin here...and I think that was when they had not so many teams to deal with.Dunno if I could ever purposely find the sourse,I follow several F1 sites and am not too shit hot on computer stuff......I might find it if I went searching for a recipe for eel soup,maybe.....

Lou Girardin

22nd June 2005, 15:06

So are you saying that F1 management should of bent the rules to disadvantage the bridgestone runners? It's a professional sports with heaps and heaps of dollars invested into it, they can't just bend the rule everytime a team has a problem

Exactly right.
If Bridgestone users had gone to the FIA and said our tyres aren't as good as the Michelins, we want to change them during the race, What would the other teams have said?

Ixion

22nd June 2005, 15:06

Of course it takes some serious shit load of gear....but we are talking F1 and Michelin here...and I think that was when they had not so many teams to deal with.Dunno if I could ever purposely find the sourse,I follow several F1 sites and am not too shit hot on computer stuff......I might find it if I went searching for a recipe for eel soup,maybe.....

Here y'go, save y'searchin'

Eel Soup

2.25lt (4 pints) Water
1.35kg (3lb) Eels
1 Onion
150ml (¼ pint) Cream
3 Blades Mace
1 Bunch Sweet Herbs
50g (2oz) Butter
7g (¼oz) Peppercorns
2 tbsp Flour
Salt, to taste

Wash the eels, cut them into thin slices and put them in the saucepan with the butter.
Simmer for a few minutes, then pour in the water and add the thin sliced onion, herbs, mace and seasoning.
Simmer until the eels are tender, but do not break the fish.
Take them out carefully, mix the flour smoothly to a batter with the cream.
Bring to the boil, pour over the eels and serve.

Time: 1 hour or rather more.
Sufficient for 8 persons.
Seasonable from June to March.

Note: This soup may be flavoured differently by omitting the cream and adding a little ketchup or Harvey’s sauce.

Motu

22nd June 2005, 15:24

Yeah but....how can I go searching for important information if I don't have unimportant information to sidetrack me.I can't see the forest for the trees....so if you you go looking for forests you find all sorts of stuff on the breeding patterns of polar bears - don't you know how the internet works?

Motu

22nd June 2005, 16:06

With just a ''quick'' look I found this post from 2003,the 'tyregate' scandal,some reference to the portable tyre assembly factory.

The press reports seemed to read as though they're testing those new tires right now, yesterday and today. I'm thinking they've found some way to assemble their existing components (carcass and tread) into a tire that is compliant with the new rules. I can't believe they've actually had the time to redesign a new carcass and tread and manufacture enough in the 2 or 3 days we've had. Especially over a holiday weekend.

I speculated in this post that perhaps Michelin is squeezing the carcass at the sides and stretching the tread over it before attaching it in order to narrow the tire a few mm. And since they have that fast portable tire assembly plant on a semi-trailer, they could have dragged it to Monza to continuously make and test new versions as needed.

For those not familiar with Michelin's portable tire assemble 'factory', I use the analogy of a hot-dog stand. As just like a hot-dog vendor, it takes two complex pre-made components and assembles them. (You ever try making hot dogs and hot dog buns from scratch? Me either, that qualifies as complex to me.)

From what I gather, the main purpose of portable assembly 'factory' is to allow Michelin a good deal more flexibility, in that they can choose a compound only a day or so prior to the GP weekend, taking advantage of the latest weather reports. But from what I gather, it just assembles tires, it doesn't really "manufacture" tires.

So if they could squeeze them in just a little bit, it might make them compliant with the new rules. Especially if the changed the suspension setup a bit, put in a bit more air and ran a slightly harder compound.

TwoSeven

22nd June 2005, 16:25

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the changes to tyres are almost always to the compound. This was a carcass fault.
The FIA did offer to allow tyre changes under the safety rule, but that meant a change every 10 laps.
This debacle does no credit to the FIA and their stupid rules, they are emasculating F1 to make it more interesting. But soon it'll be no more than a glorified F3000.

Your right to some degree.

A tire is made up of a carcass with a surface added. The carcass usually includes the sidewall of the tire (the bit that was at fault). The compound refers to the material of the surface added - softer means more material has to be used and more weight.

The weight of the tire dictates the lateral force that can be applied to the sidewall of the carcas - its speed x weight x lateral G = final figure.

If the final figure is higher than a certain point, the tire will fail. For the US GP, the turn had a high lateral G and a high speed.

One of michelins solutions was to fly out a harder compound tire which would reduce the surface rubber required which reduces the weight - being a harder compound it also reduced the level of grip and therefore the speed.

Even after those changes it was still found that the 'final figure' from the tire under race conditions still exceeded that at what it would fail at.

Adding a chicane makes the cars slow at the point in the corner where the lateral force would have been the highest - taking it out of the equation completely.

Note - the carcass used for the tire is the same for all compounds of tires - its very seldom changed. The reason why they dont often use a high strength sidewall construction (like dunlop do in their bike tires) is because it affects tire pressure and therefore heat buildup (and all those other factors). Lower pressures give higher grip, which is what they wanted in those tires.

TwoSeven

22nd June 2005, 16:30

With just a ''quick'' look I found this post from 2003,the 'tyregate' scandal,some reference to the portable tyre assembly factory.

<snip>
For those not familiar with Michelin's portable tire assemble 'factory', I use the analogy of a hot-dog stand. As just like a hot-dog vendor, it takes two complex pre-made components and assembles them. (You ever try making hot dogs and hot dog buns from scratch? Me either, that qualifies as complex to me.)

From what I gather, the main purpose of portable assembly 'factory' is to allow Michelin a good deal more flexibility, in that they can choose a compound only a day or so prior to the GP weekend, taking advantage of the latest weather reports. But from what I gather, it just assembles tires, it doesn't really "manufacture" tires.

Following my earlier post. They have a prebuilt carcass and a premade surface. The latter is heated up til its really gooey, then rolled onto the carcass, stuck in a mould then cooled.

Most tire makers use the same technique, just that here its been made portable.

Kickaha

22nd June 2005, 16:38

Following my earlier post. They have a prebuilt carcass and a premade surface. The latter is heated up til its really gooey, then rolled onto the carcass, stuck in a mould then cooled.

Most tire makers use the same technique, just that here its been made portable.

They don't heat anything up until after the tread is bonded to the carcass then it is put under heat and pressure to cure in the mould

Perhaps it is different now but carcass construction used to differ between tracks and in some types of racing between brands of cars

TwoSeven

22nd June 2005, 16:39

In general I agree with the new F1 rules - they are primarily introduced to reduce the cost of racing to give the small teams a chance to compete with the bigger teams.

Note that Ferrari is the only team that designs and makes its only complete cars including engines. As an example of this they used to take 15 engines to a race weekend for both cars and expected to use 3 per day. Now they are only allowed to use 1 per two race weekends. It also means that only a few need to be built each year.

When ferrari design and build an engine, they expense it as R&D, then sell it and all that lot - other teams cant do that since they are giving their money to ferrari. Effectively the other teams were paying ferrari to take twice as many engines to a race than them which was giving an advantage.

A similar thing happens with tires, instead of paying michelin to make 20 or 50 thousand tires, they only need to pay for a quarter of that number.

All of a sudden the teams made big savings in their budgets, could afford to increase R&D and as you can see in the first races of the year, suddenly became competitive.

crazylittleshit

22nd June 2005, 16:43

Who watched the farce that was the F1GP this morning - 6 cars?!?!?! I would be pissed if I had paid for tickets, accomodation et al and finally got there only to see 3 teams rolling around the track....

Kinda makes a mockery of the sport really.

Atleast Michael will feel a bit better now....
big suprise on who won Too..... :mad:

Brian d marge

23rd June 2005, 01:56

As edited by The mad word axeman ...Snip goes on a bit about usa not understanding f1 , and sunday fiasco killed any chances of a revival ...

quote
No matter what the pretext the result was that F1 ripped off 120 000 spectators who had paid as much as 150 dollars a ticket for a race who instead recieved as one team owner put it , a farce...

Snip goes on about bernie trying to save the day
then say the seven teams proposed a chicane . All teams except ferrari said yes , but the fim refused to change the rule citing safety.
In 1994 after the death of senna and Ratzenburger at san marino fia created a temporary chicane , then however ALL the teams agreed with this decision not just the 70 percent this time ( Isnt 70 percent a majority???)

Any way it goes on to say that there is a court case called FIA ,formula one,Michelin indy speedway ,,,it has been filed with the federal court . As they claim they were defrauded out of a minimum start of 20 cars ..

Watch that space

By the way Ferrari say they werent consulted till the monday??? ( WHAT ) and would have said no to the chicane ....

Seems to me Ferrari and the Fia have the same board members , or the same paychecks

Townley ...townley ....

Stephen

Coldkiwi

23rd June 2005, 13:10

good lord, we've got some tyre experts tucked away on here don't we?! (not a p/t either!)

very interesting reading guys. It sound like michelin must've known some time in advance that they could be looking at some serious problems though. After all a graduate mech engineer should be able to figure out how much force is going to be on a rotating object travelling on a banked oval at a given speed. Despite the fact that the blame may lie with Ecclestone etc. Michelin sure as heck won't come out of this smelling of roses

Coldkiwi

23rd June 2005, 13:17

So what DID happen to the back up tyres for Michelin then? Just reading the following off the FIA website:
"The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe."

TwoSeven

23rd June 2005, 13:45

That Guy

23rd June 2005, 13:53

Note that Ferrari is the only team that designs and makes its only complete cars including engines.

Don't Toyota & Renault build the whole car too?

Suney

23rd June 2005, 14:08

www.f1-live.com
Two good interviews from Minardi describing the events and also Max Q&A session. Read it before it goes to archives
http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/050623001818.shtml
http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/050622131809.shtml

This quote made me laugh
right, but why against the rules, surely you can change a circuit for safety reasons?
"There was no safety issue with the circuit. The problem was some teams had brought the wrong tyres. It would be like making all the athletes in a 100m sprint run barefoot because some had forgotten their shoes."

Motu

23rd June 2005, 14:35

The letter from Paul Stoddard is good,from a different,although badly biased view point.

The Michelin tyres have a squarer shoulder than Bridgestone,this caused the ''tyregate'' scandal a few years ago when Michelin tyres were found to become ''wider'' with wear.It seems the banking overloaded the edge of the tyre at Indy.There are some pretty smart dudes at Michelin,they have all the data and knowhow,so it's hard to imagine how they could make such a blunder,but they did.How many of us have made a mistake in our own so called area of expertise? Well,I've made some monumental cock ups over the years I can only blame on myself....who should of known better.

Lou Girardin

23rd June 2005, 16:48

Jean Todt of Ferrari said they were not consulted by the FIA. But he was honest enough to say that if they were they would have objected to the chicanes.
It's really funny how people are so keen to demonise the oldest team in F1. Who also happen to be one of only three teams that build road cars. Surely it's not the "tall poppy" syndrome at work. I don't recall such dislike of McLaren or Williams when they were dominant.

Motu

23rd June 2005, 17:15

I don't recall such dislike of McLaren or Williams when they were dominant.

That's because there was racing to watch,people get bored watching a single car go around the track winning....no matter what colour it was.McLaren once won all but one race in a season - but it was Prost/Senna having ding dong battles...in the same team,outragious driving,no one really cared they were driving for the same team.It'd be nice if Ferrari would allow competition like that....or if Schumacher would allow a team mate to beat him fair and square - this is where the animosity comes in.

Coldkiwi

23rd June 2005, 18:03

The backup tires used the same carcass so had the same problem.

Not possible to do the math to calculate the result as to many unknown variables. The normal method is to examine the tires - which is what they did (they x-rayed them).

same carcass on a track you know is going to put the tyres under the most lateral stress of any track in the year? Still sounds like michelin missed the boat to me.

Of course its possible to do the math.. ok, maybe not a grad engineer, but a company like Michelin would have an absolutely fearsome amount of engineering brain and computer power to do just that. In an industry worth millions and millions of dollars each year, there is no way they would do the selection of tyres solely on a trial basis when they knew they couldn't do a trial at the circuit. After all, they're calculating the best compound (they're not doing that by testing trial and error, maybe fine tuning but basic composition would surely be sound) so why would they risk a PR disaster like this solely on testing? Not possible (even though they are french). The back up tyre should, as the FIA said, be rock solid in all forms