Check your consciences

[oneofsix]

The judge has ask general NZ to check their consciences, I have and sorry but tis not my fault!
My kids know to drink sensibly and that means getting drunk id dangerous. They know not to drive after drinking. I don't agree with NZs current direction on drinking, I think we need more education and less regulation.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4667079/Girls-stupid-decision-resulted-in-two-deaths

[Paul in NZ]

What else is there to say that hasnt been said? Booze is a terrible drug and once its got its hooks into you there is a hell of a job getting rid of it. Reducing the drinking age didnt work and neither did allowing supermarkets to sell it. I see middle aged, well to do women taking home crates of wine and from experience I know its not for a wedding.... They are knocking back more than a bottle a night each, sorry, thats quite a bit!

Its only will power that holds me back as its definately in my nature to like a tipple or seven and I tell ya what, it does not make me a nicer person... and I aint that bloody nice to start with either...

Buggered if I know what to do about it either.

[oneofsix]

I would like to see a more mature culture in NZ, where you don't have to be specialized in selling booze and making $ from booze, but rather where a family can go together have one drink, coffee, wine, beer, softdrink or what ever, relax and then wander on.
Our law seems to want to ring fence booze, make it special and require it to be consumed in quantity cause you are restricted to when and where you can get it.
Other places where it is more a normal part of normal life don't seem to have the UK, Aus, USA, NZ issues with it.
It a big change and too much money invested in the current culture to make it an easy change but unless we want to continue with our current problems we, as a country, need to change.

[scissorhands]

If you don't want an elephant in your house, don't make friends with an elephant trainer.

[rainman]

Fix the other social problems we have, and booze will be less of a problem.

[yungatart]

Our law seems to want to ring fence booze, make it special and require it to be consumed in quantity cause you are restricted to when and where you can get it.
Other places where it is more a normal part of normal life don't seem to have the UK, Aus, USA, NZ issues with it.


WASP societies seem to have the most trouble with alcohol.

In Europe young children are given alcohol by their parents (a glass of watered down wine with dinner at a special occasion) It is seen as the norm.

When our youngest (aged 17 at the time) was in Belgium his host father would pour him a single malt whisky and they would sit and chat together after dinner. This was after wine with dinner. Irresponsible? Definitely not!

Beer was available to purchase in single bottles at corner dairies and servos. 16 y/o can purchase wine and beer, spirits and RTD's are off limits until you are 21.

It seems a much more commonsense approach than the one we have here.

[Deano]

Other places where it is more a normal part of normal life don't seem to have the UK, Aus, USA, NZ issues with it.


Where are these places ? I thought most countries have liquor problems.

[oldrider]

The drinking culture in NZ was sealed by the seed of six o'clock closing and that was imposed by the countries wowsers (anti drink lobby) of the time!

Prohibition and it's alter ego, 6 o'clock closing was a disgraceful exhibition of booze guzzling at it's worst!

Today's youth didn't actually see it but the culture was embedded at that time and monkey see, monkey do has prevailed ever since.

JMHO having lived through all those phases. :argh:

[MSTRS]

...cause you are restricted to when and where you can get it.
....

You what? Restricted? Because there's about 4 hours in every 24 when you can't buy alcohol? Some restriction...



...Other places where it is more a normal part of normal life ...

But it is normal here. If normal means common...

[oneofsix]

The drinking culture in NZ was sealed by the seed of six o'clock closing and that was imposed by the countries wowsers (anti drink lobby) of the time!

Prohibition and it's alter ego, 6 o'clock closing was a disgraceful exhibition of booze guzzling at it's worst!

Today's youth didn't actually see it but the culture was embedded at that time and monkey see, monkey do has prevailed ever since.

JMHO having lived through all those phases. :argh:

Why it has to be education, legislation has already f$%^ it up and we need to reset the preceptions

[James Deuce]

Not by any stretch of the imagination can you say that the UK doesn't have alcohol related issues. I think they're worse than here, not better.

[oneofsix]

Not by any stretch of the imagination can you say that the UK doesn't have alcohol related issues. I think they're worse than here, not better.

sorry James I was meaning the UK has our problem as does Aussie and the others quoted. I tend to think of the likes of France as have a more sane, but not perfect, drink culture.

[DEVVIL]

I think we need more education and less regulation.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4667079/Girls-stupid-decision-resulted-in-two-deaths

I will always remember the alive at 25 program (1980s) that came to my high school. They said 1 in 5 will be dead or in serious a crash in their life time. As we walked in a line the reaper touched one of us in five. Will never forget that.:shutup:

[James Deuce]

sorry James I was meaning the UK has our problem as does Aussie and the others quoted. I tend to think of the likes of France as have a more sane, but not perfect, drink culture.
Ahhh! I'm with you now. I don't think you can do anything about Aussie drinkers.

[scumdog]

Fix the other social problems we have, and booze will be less of a problem.

Dealing with people in my job you could almost say the opposite.

Alcohol seems to exacerbate whatever social problems and inadequacies people have.

Dropping the 'drinking age' was a MAJOR error in me experience and should be reveresed. (and no, I don't want to hear stories of "Well I got booze easy-as when I was 18" or whatever), the fact is offending and convictions of thoe under 20 went up after the drop in the 'drinking age' and 14 -17 year olds got into strife that a generation ago few would have got into.

[Paul in NZ]

Dealing with people in my job you could almost say the opposite.

Alcohol seems to exacerbate whatever social problems and inadequacies people have.

Dropping the 'drinking age' was a MAJOR error in me experience and should be reveresed. (and no, I don't want to hear stories of "Well I got booze easy-as when I was 18" or whatever), the fact is offending and convictions of thoe under 20 went up after the drop in the 'drinking age' and 14 -17 year olds got into strife that a generation ago few would have got into.

This would be my experience as well. I'm sorry but I genuinely believe the lowering of the drinking age was supported by the liqour industry so that they could 'open new markets' (ie get their stinkin hooks into the young) and it was a big backwards step...

[steve_t]

This would be my experience as well. I'm sorry but I genuinely believe the lowering of the drinking age was supported by the liqour industry so that they could 'open new markets' (ie get their stinkin hooks into the young) and it was a big backwards step...

And guess who gets more money if more booze is sold? :shutup: (besides the booze manufacturers :innocent:)

[oneofsix]

Whilst I understand where Paul and Scumdog are coming from I think the lowering the drinking age is another legislation rather than education thing and this is where it really failed. We a concentrating on stuff like age, which varies with person, and yes I could have got pissed at 12 when the age was 21, rather than attitude.
When they lowered the age they bought in tougher penalties (for sellers) and started to police heavier, initially, they brought in 18+ cards etc and still the young get pissed. Legislation fails without education.

[nighthawk]

Steve T beat me to the point on this one ...you will never get control over this problem as long as more than one partie makes a profit from it, I agree with Paul and Scumdog, you only need to spent an hour in any District Court in this land to see the effects that alcohol has on our society.

there is no quick fix answer to this problem, education would go a long way but as Oldrider put it , the culture has been here far to long.

[Genestho]

I will always remember the alive at 25 program (1980s) that came to my high school. They said 1 in 5 will be dead or in serious a crash in their life time. As we walked in a line the reaper touched one of us in five. Will never forget that.:shutup:

SADD does or did that with a coloured ribbon excercise, 20 or so students to stand up and each handed a coloured ribbon.

Each colour represents a family member, emergency workers, the driver and the victim/s, you could hear a pin drop.

I've been involved in education and had some blown away kids, last year I had a 16 year old girl fall into my arms crying, after sitting her down with a glass of water, we had a good chat, I'd assumed she'd gone through something similar - it turned out she was so overwhelmed by my personal story..education and real stories do get through, it's just difficult for various reasons to get education out there..

Regarding culture, places like the EU has it closer to right, in Italy particularly where red wine is a staple part of meals, I guess families learn how to respect alcohol better..

[Usarka]

Regarding culture, places the EU has it closer to right, in Italy particularly where red wine is a staple part of meals, I guess families learn how to respect alcohol better..

A lot of that though is intertwined with their culture and societal behaviour. It wouldn't work just by replicating "wine at family mealtimes" in NZ (imho).

[mashman]

There's an all girls school, or at least 1, in the UK that introduced an after-school wine club in an attempt to curb the need for binge drinking... not sure how it turned out, but it seemed like a bloody good idea... they'd cook food, sit with different wines to taste and learn to enjoy the drink and not the affect...

I know a few guys over here that brew their own beers, make their own spirits etc... and do so to find that perfect tasting drink, almost competitively so sometimes... perhaps it's worth trying, dunno.

[Scuba_Steve]

There is belief that this sort of thing is atually caused by the Anti-drinking movement, as its "bad" to drink so when you can YOU DO!!! :drinkup: & being as its "bad" it becomes more attractive during those rebel years which is probably why the likes of France where your breast feed wine as a baby don't have the probs countries with booze restrictions do.

So in my opinion its not the age its the anti-booze, denial, "don't talk about it", its "bad", not learning to respect it culture we have.

[ellipsis]

....most of the social disorder in kiwi is down to the evil drop and cigarettes are probably one of the biggest health issues alongside that...the excise or more , the lack of excise made from these two together would add up to a fantastic amount of revenue...wherever the taxes go from these excises is irrelevant...probably prop a large segment of govt expenditure... we would all have to live with and bare a lot of change to the tax laws if we were serious about change...it would be great to be able to not have to put up with the effects of misuse every time we step out the door...this message is brought to you by a confirmed pisshead and cigarette smoker...it would be great to see the country clean up its act....i think it is down to every one of us, though...

[steve_t]

....most of the social disorder in kiwi is down to the evil drop and cigarettes are probably one of the biggest health issues alongside that...the excise or more , the lack of excise made from these two together would add up to a fantastic amount of revenue...wherever the taxes go from these excises is irrelevant...probably prop a large segment of govt expenditure... we would all have to live with and bare a lot of change to the tax laws if we were serious about change...it would be great to be able to not have to put up with the effects of misuse every time we step out the door...this message is brought to you by a confirmed pisshead and cigarette smoker...it would be great to see the country clean up its act....i think it is down to every one of us, though...

Man, I had to read what you wrote 3 times to understand what you're trying to say. Where do sentences start and finish? Are you drunk at the moment? Am I drunk at the moment? :innocent:

[ellipsis]

...fuck all to do with grammar..its a breathing exercise...

[neels]

My conscience is clear.

We let our kids have a drink every now and again, if it's appropriate, often they won't bother when offered. We don't tell them that drinking is bad as that would be hypocritical, but they do understand that it should be in context with the occasion.

I know they'll come home pissed to bits at some point, and I'm pretty sure they understand that we won't be too concerned as long as they come home in a taxi, and after they've mown the lawns with a hangover we'll go and retrieve the car. It's been made very clear that any drinking & driving or breaking of licence conditions will mean catching the bus, they might own the car but I can make damn sure it stays parked for as long as I see fit.

[oneofsix]

I know they'll come home pissed to bits at some point, and I'm pretty sure they understand that we won't be too concerned as long as they come home in a taxi, and after they've mown the lawns with a hangover we'll go and retrieve the car. It's been made very clear that any drinking & driving or breaking of licence conditions will mean catching the bus, they might own the car but I can make damn sure it stays parked for as long as I see fit.

Now there is a balance of consequences to education. not so over the top that they get too tied up in the punishment that they forget the lesson.

[steve_t]

My conscience is clear.

We let our kids have a drink every now and again, if it's appropriate, often they won't bother when offered. We don't tell them that drinking is bad as that would be hypocritical, but they do understand that it should be in context with the occasion.

I know they'll come home pissed to bits at some point, and I'm pretty sure they understand that we won't be too concerned as long as they come home in a taxi, and after they've mown the lawns with a hangover we'll go and retrieve the car. It's been made very clear that any drinking & driving or breaking of licence conditions will mean catching the bus, they might own the car but I can make damn sure it stays parked for as long as I see fit.


Now there is a balance of consequences to education. not so over the top that they get too tied up in the punishment that they forget the lesson.

+1 Great approach :yes:

[Genestho]

My conscience is clear.

We let our kids have a drink every now and again, if it's appropriate, often they won't bother when offered. We don't tell them that drinking is bad as that would be hypocritical, but they do understand that it should be in context with the occasion.

I know they'll come home pissed to bits at some point, and I'm pretty sure they understand that we won't be too concerned as long as they come home in a taxi, and after they've mown the lawns with a hangover we'll go and retrieve the car. It's been made very clear that any drinking & driving or breaking of licence conditions will mean catching the bus, they might own the car but I can make damn sure it stays parked for as long as I see fit.
I'm out of bling.
That is so great to read, common sense and parenting consequences, similar to the educative approach I try when talking with teens.

They're teenagers, peer pressure/partying/drinking/whatever, is a small part of growing up in NZ (like it or not - to shun the idea would generally cause them to do it anyway IMO - you wouldn't have open, honest communication to be able to assist or teach better choices!!) just think of getting home safe or sober planning and further, knowing 'morning after' BAC can and frequently does, (couple that with little sleep) still cause crashes and/or could put you over the legal limit.

I made a particular note of saying this last year and to let kids know there'd be a law change of zero alcohol and driving for their age group coming, that those points were more important to know than ever..



A lot of that though is intertwined with their culture and societal behaviour. It wouldn't work just by replicating "wine at family mealtimes" in NZ (imho).
Absolutely - You're quite right mate! (IMO) Out of bling! :)

[MSTRS]

... why the likes of France where your breast feed wine as a baby don't have the probs countries with booze restrictions do...

You think France doesn't have restrictions?

[oneofsix]

You think France doesn't have restrictions?

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age#Europe) the law in France is;
"Buying alcohol is illegal below the age of 18 for spirits and 16 for other beverages[44] Selling alcohol to a minor can be fined 7500 euros.[45] The law has been changed recently.[46] Drinking alcohol is not forbidden to minors in private, but supplying them with alcohol that results in intoxication is forbidden."

Most of the world where you can buy alcohol the age is 18. The places where alcohol is forbidden seem to have developed other problems (check the person next to you isn't wearing a bomb).

Don't 100% trust the site as it shows the legal age for NZ and Auss as below 16 :doh:

[Scuba_Steve]

You think France doesn't have restrictions?

"restrictions" was not limited to the the legal sense.

[MSTRS]

"restrictions" was not limited to the the legal sense.

That didn't come through...you mean 'what is socially acceptable' or 'societal norm' perhaps?

[Stirts]

America have raised the minimum drinking age to 32?
It seems they want to keep alcohol out of schools.

[scumdog]

So in my opinion its not the age its the anti-booze, denial, "don't talk about it", its "bad", not learning to respect it culture we have.

The age thing has a lot to do with todays problems involving younger teenagers with poorly developed minds... sure, we have all the problems we've historically had but dropping the drinking age sure added a whole new dimension to them:yes:

And I bet FAS has gone up proportionally too.

[Stirts]

And I bet FAS has gone up proportionally too.

FAS?

Fat Arsed Slags....yes yes I would have to agree!

[scumdog]

FAS?

Fat Arsed Slags....yes yes I would have to agree!

FUNNY, TRUE BUT WRONG!:blink:

[Paul in NZ]

The lowering of the drinking age is not solely the problem although its the easiest to reverse quickly. Cheap booze, freely availiable at the corner store is another factor plus the loss of soooo many job opportunities for kids that dont want to go to uni are also factors. I suspect that any tax intake the govt recieves on booze and tobacco is more than spent of addressing the problems associated with them.

Its not just the kids. My own generation is bloody awful around drinking. (sigh) I'm stuffed if I know what to do about it either....

[NinjaNanna]

At 18 your are an adult, you have the right to vote and can also be tried as an adult in a court of law.

I'm sorry no one has the right to deny any adult the right to purchase and consume alcohol. If you want to do as such then you need to raise the "adult" age to 21 as well.

Teenage drinking is about rebelling, fitting in and boredom. Give kids something constructive and safe to do that addresses the boredom, that in turn will address the fitting in (the good kids will hang together), leaving only the rebelling ones to deal with.

Addressing alcohol abuse amoungst the over 20s is not so easy. Education and changing societies acceptance of drunk and disorderly behavior is probably the only way we can ever be rid of it.

In the mean time perhaps its about time that we introduced a BAL (blood alcohol limit) for being in public, over the limit (say 0.1%) and attract the attention of the police you are fined. If the police are called to an incident at a private residence and you are over the limit (0.12%) then its a night in the lock up.

[James Deuce]

If the police are called to an incident at a private residence and you are over the limit (0.12%) then its a night in the lock up.

No. Just, no.

[oneofsix]

In the mean time perhaps its about time that we introduced a BAL (blood alcohol limit) for being in public, over the limit (say 0.1%) and attract the attention of the police you are fined. If the police are called to an incident at a private residence and you are over the limit (0.12%) then its a night in the lock up.

I thought the laws from way back when about drunk and disorderly in a public place still existed? Don't over complicate with BAL as part of the disorderly could be drugs or the offender is just a prick.

[MSTRS]

At 18 your are an adult...

No matter what the laws are, nature disagrees.

[oneofsix]

No matter what the laws are, nature disagrees.

Unlike nature the law has to define limits. Some of us aren't ever mature, assuming thats what you mean for adult.

[turtleman]

At 18 your are an adult, you have the right to vote and can also be tried as an adult in a court of law.

I'm sorry no one has the right to deny any adult the right to purchase and consume alcohol. If you want to do as such then you need to raise the "adult" age to 21 as well.

Teenage drinking is about rebelling, fitting in and boredom. Give kids something constructive and safe to do that addresses the boredom, that in turn will address the fitting in (the good kids will hang together), leaving only the rebelling ones to deal with.

Addressing alcohol abuse amoungst the over 20s is not so easy. Education and changing societies acceptance of drunk and disorderly behavior is probably the only way we can ever be rid of it.

In the mean time perhaps its about time that we introduced a BAL (blood alcohol limit) for being in public, over the limit (say 0.1%) and attract the attention of the police you are fined. If the police are called to an incident at a private residence and you are over the limit (0.12%) then its a night in the lock up.

Reading the first part of that is a little confusing - first they're adults, then they're teenagers, then they're kids....

[MSTRS]

I mean the (male at least) brain isn't mature enough when it comes to impulse control.
Average age, I believe, is 25 before the frontal lobes are 'mature'.

Yes, I know there are plenty of so-called sensible, mature 18/19 year olds, so it is a difficult question just where to strike the 'adult' age. I wonder whether our predecessors didn't have it right at 21?

[oneofsix]

most countries go for 18/19 and thats when we send them off to war.

[MSTRS]

most countries go for 18/19 and thats when we send them off to war.

When they are young enough to still have difficulty with the notion of their own mortality and possess an attitude of 'proving' themselves...

[Scuba_Steve]

That didn't come through...you mean 'what is socially acceptable' or 'societal norm' perhaps?

probably a better way to put it :yes:, but I did mean to include all i.e. socially restricted, parentally restricted, legally restricted & retardedly restricted etc

[Scuba_Steve]

The age thing has a lot to do with todays problems involving younger teenagers with poorly developed minds... sure, we have all the problems we've historically had but dropping the drinking age sure added a whole new dimension to them:yes:

And I bet FAS has gone up proportionally too.

all I'm saying is it aint age alone infact it's probably a lesser factor in the equation the only prob is they tend to be part of the equation. But like most other things there aint no silver bullet or one-for-all fix.
Make it a more normal part of life rather than upping the age problems will go down BUT we will always have trouble makers, retards & drunks

[98tls]

Dealing with people in my job you could almost say the opposite.

Alcohol seems to exacerbate whatever social problems and inadequacies people have.

Dropping the 'drinking age' was a MAJOR error in me experience and should be reveresed. (and no, I don't want to hear stories of "Well I got booze easy-as when I was 18" or whatever), the fact is offending and convictions of thoe under 20 went up after the drop in the 'drinking age' and 14 -17 year olds got into strife that a generation ago few would have got into.

Wait until the unsmackables get to drinking,i dont envy you T,plenty of them tell there parents to get fucked now imagine there response when being told what to do by a copper when there full of piss.They lower the drinking age and remove many parents of being able to teach right from wrong:facepalm:You really do have to wonder at the wisdom of these pricks running the show,make that sideshow.

[fuknKIWI]

Man, I had to read what you wrote 3 times to understand what you're trying to say. Where do sentences start and finish? Are you drunk at the moment? Am I drunk at the moment? :innocent:

You MUST be drunk I got it in one...but then I know him...& where he's coming from:woohoo:

[fuknKIWI]

Wait until the unsmackables get to drinking,
:shit: Aye we're dooomed... we're all dooomed (Scottish accent:yes:)

[Coldrider]

Wait until the unsmackables get to drinking,i dont envy you T,plenty of them tell there parents to get fucked now imagine there response when being told what to do by a copper when there full of piss.They lower the drinking age and remove many parents of being able to teach right from wrong:facepalm:You really do have to wonder at the wisdom of these pricks runnung the show,make that sideshow.Exactly, however the 'corporal punsihment free' mob are already out there on the piss, and the 'unsmackables' are buying piss at 16 years old.

[Paul in NZ]

I suppose in a democratic ‘western’ society there is a case to argue for making all things freely accessible and leaving it up to the individual to take responsibility for the safe use of all. Often this gets lumped under the ideals of ‘personal responsibility’.

However I don’t think this really works. I think that personal responsibility is an obligation to oneself. It is our individual duty to ensure good character and behaviour irrespective of how we were brought up and what kind of conditioning we received. Controls on things like alcohol seem to go against this – indeed why stop there, make narcotics legal and taken to the extreme – why bother with traffic laws? Surely people can make their own minds up what’s right and what’s wrong? Take the notion to an absurd length and surely you need to take responsibility for building your own road to ride the bike you built (from metal you smelted) and running on a fuel you made… Um – not really practical so for the greater good, we pool our resources and build cooperative societies.

The problem is that personal responsibility gets hijacked by anarchists wearing the suit of libertarianism. Our society is a representative democracy and we are expected to abide by the decisions (laws) made by those we elect. One of the compromises we make is that we surrender certain of our freedoms for the greater good of our society. It’s a good idea but like all ideas it has some flaws – the biggest being the fallibility of human beings to live up to any kind of ideal.

So – what’s my point? My point is this. We, as a society are entitled to make decisions regarding limits and restrictions based on providing a balanced and fair society. This allows us to achieve a decent life for all rather than one where just a few do well by exploiting weaker souls. We are also allowed to restrict the activities of others to cause harm to our society.

There has to come a time where we can debate access to alcohol and move to redress some of the issues it causes. Its not just us – its becoming a very big problem in a great many places.

[oldrider]

The judge has ask general NZ to check their consciences, I have and sorry but tis not my fault!
My kids know to drink sensibly and that means getting drunk id dangerous. They know not to drive after drinking. I don't agree with NZs current direction on drinking, I think we need more education and less regulation.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4667079/Girls-stupid-decision-resulted-in-two-deaths

A Judge asks "us" to check our consciences, "pot kettle black situation in their (Judges) case", considering their recent displays of stupidity in letting dangerous criminals loose into the community! :facepalm: