Morality?

[Lou Girardin]

The Japanese Government has a strange idea of morality. How else can they claim a "moral victory" from their defeat at the IWC.
It seems that they have made the world aware of the "benefits" of their "research" into whales.
Still, it shouldn't be surprising given their revisionist views of the war they started in 1941.
Their Prime Minister visited Okinawa for the first time since 1945 and gave tribute to the sacrifice the victims made to ensure world peace, clearly including the Japanese dead. This was a war their military started, the sacrifice was actually made by the thousands of Americans and millions of civilians that the Japanese killed.
As I said, a strange idea of morality.

[Odin]

........by the thousands of Americans

...and soldiers from just a few other nations ;)

[sels1]

Its all about self interest and saving face, grasshopper
These guys are worse than Bush

[placidfemme]

Its all about self interest and saving face, grasshopper
These guys are worse than Bush

I'm not too sure about that... Bush is 1.65% worse

[Coldkiwi]

I don't know if its a funny definition of morality thats made them say that or whether its their age old culture of not wanting to loose face. Maybe a bit of both.

Its an interesting issue though but I've yet to see any evidence presented by Japan on what scientific research reports they are producing through the killing of 400 whales a year.. and what sort of wonderful reports they might produce if they killed twice as many? I know 'scientific purposes' are widely regarded as a front for the whale meat industry but is there any published science to help support the assertion that its not just for food?

[spudchucka]

...and soldiers from just a few other nations ;)
Too right but you can't underestimate the importance of the USA's contribution. I don't think the Normandy invasions would have ever succeeded without the yanks input. Pretty much the same goes for the war in the pacific.

[Marmoot]

Their Prime Minister visited Okinawa for the first time since 1945 and gave tribute to the sacrifice the victims made to ensure world peace, clearly including the Japanese dead. This was a war their military started, the sacrifice was actually made by the thousands of Americans and millions of civilians that the Japanese killed.


The soldiers do not start the war. And in war, heroes always come out from both sides.

But I agree, whitewash revisionist culture is really bad.

[TwoSeven]

Its never a good idea to question another countries moralities on the principle that they have a different set of values and cultural background from which they draw them from.

Perhaps you could do it to likeminded countries but even thats dangerous.

Best way to understand another culture is to go there and live amongst the natives :)

[Indiana_Jones]

Yeah, they don't like to loose face.

They started the war because they didn't want to lose face. The US stopped trading with them (over the China-Japan war, where Japan invaded China) and they got most of their oil from them. So not to bow down, they moved into the Pacific (taking out the US threat first) and then into French, Dutch and British colonial assets, to gain reasources (though most senoir military officals in Japan knew they wouldn't be able to defeat the US, some hoped to sue for peace)

Well that's how I see it, or read and been taught (well self taught, I could never write eassy's at school, so I didn't bother taking history, though I enjoy it)

And has anyone seen them catch sharks, chop off the fins (for shark fin soup) and chuck the sharks back in the water? :nono:

-Indy

[crazylittleshit]

The Japanese Government has a strange idea of morality. How else can they claim a "moral victory" from their defeat at the IWC.
It seems that they have made the world aware of the "benefits" of their "research" into whales.
Still, it shouldn't be surprising given their revisionist views of the war they started in 1941.
Their Prime Minister visited Okinawa for the first time since 1945 and gave tribute to the sacrifice the victims made to ensure world peace, clearly including the Japanese dead. This was a war their military started, the sacrifice was actually made by the thousands of Americans and millions of civilians that the Japanese killed.
As I said, a strange idea of morality.
"BUSH"
lets nuke them :weird:
I just think we should start cutting them up :rofl:

[Odin]

Too right but you can't underestimate the importance of the USA's contribution. I don't think the Normandy invasions would have ever succeeded without the yanks input. Pretty much the same goes for the war in the pacific.

Agreed but still.... they were not alone, and if you look at the benefit they got out of WW2 they were really the only winners. So the we did you a favor thing and all that...

[kerryg]

Its never a good idea to question another countries moralities on the principle that they have a different set of values and cultural background from which they draw them from.

Perhaps you could do it to likeminded countries but even thats dangerous.

Best way to understand another culture is to go there and live amongst the natives :)


There are some KB members who live and work/study/whatever in Japan and it would be interesting to hear from them about this.

Isn't it a possibility that there's a bit of hysterical over-reaction going on with this whaling issue, created by the anti-whaling lobby, which may (??)not be supported by the facts. Do we really know with certainty that taking 400 or 900 minke whales represents an kind of threat to anything except our sensibilities (well..and to those particular minke whales)? It's abhorrent to me, I admit, and beats me why anyone would want to eat a whale when they could get as much beef, chicken etc as they want and God knows Japan has the affluence to buy whatever food it needs and more without taking whales...but why are we making a distinction between whales and other creatures that we all happily eat? Supposing that the taking of minke whales threatens them with extinction (I'm not sure that that is correct anyway, but for the sake of argument) harvesting to near-extinction isn't even the the issue, is it? Don't see anyone taking up arms over the near-extinction of the orange roughy....I saw something in the paper about sharks being (at least potentially) endangered as the Chinese economy is growing and demand for sharks fin soup is growing with it, but sharks don't seem to have the same emotional pull of whales (funny that.....never have enjoyed swimmimg in the sea since seeing JAWS).

I have had a bit to do with the Japanese over the years and the people I've talked to REALLY couldn't understand why we put whales in a kind of sacred category. "Cows of the sea" I think one Japanese described them to me... One Japanese guy said to me "yet you Westerners will eat RABBIT!!!". (They figure it's like eating a panda or a koala). Yeah, I know there's a difference between a whale and a rabbit or cow, but there is a cultural gap between us over the status of whales. Maybe we need to ask ourselves what our objections are really based on...pehaps?
Also the Japanese are very insular/xenophobic and can't feed themselves from their limited agricultural land so they find it bit rich coming from us, huge nett food exporters, that they shouldn't harvest one of their traditional food sources. It seems high-handed.

And one more thing just for the hell of it: traditionally Japanese were not meat eaters and the custom of eating beef, chicken, pork and other farmed animals is something quite new to them. They still have a slightly Brahmin-like distaste for the idea of meat (the meat industry is the province of a kind of Japanese untouchable class, just like in India) and see it as quite hypocritical coming from us meat-chewing animal-mass-slaughtering rabbit-munching lamb-gnawing people that we should mind their taking a few (alright a few hundred) whales.


Just running it up the flag-pole to see who'll salute it............

[Lou Girardin]

Agreed but still.... they were not alone, and if you look at the benefit they got out of WW2 they were really the only winners. So the we did you a favor thing and all that...

Actually Germany was a winner economically after the war under the Marshall plan to rebuild the country and Japan did very well under McArthur. That's why they became so strong, so quickly. Plus the fact that they didn't have to pour billions into armed forces during the start of the cold war.

But to my knowledge, only American troops out of the allies fought on Okinawa.

[Indiana_Jones]

I don't have a problem with killing whales. I don't think they should be cut up when they're still alive as I have seen sometimes. If you kill it then cut it up, then I have no issue. But greenies go "oh but the whale feels pain".....You don't fucking say? :weird: .

Why don't they tell that to lion ripping the zebra apart when it's still alive?

But I don't think we should be whaling, not at the moment at least. They have been hunted like bufflo in the past. Then again killing a whale isn't as easy as it seems (lol well for sure back in the day).
Japan say they want to return to restricted whaling, my pale British arse they would "restrict" it, they'll rape it until there is nothing left.:Oi:

-Indy

[SPman]

And as for restricted to Minke and a few minor species??? Friends of ny son where involved in the Greenpeace whale meat hunt in Japan a couple of years ago. - They identified, Fin, Sei, Bowhead and Blue whale meat for sale, as well as Minke. and Right whale. So they are already getting whatever they see out there.

It wouldnt be so bad if they cut the bullshit and just said they wfere actively whaling.
But for scientific purposes?
Torpedo a couple of fucking Factory ships - Fuck em!

[Winston001]

Agreed but still.... they were not alone, and if you look at the benefit they got out of WW2 they were really the only winners. So the we did you a favor thing and all that...

I see Lou picked up on this already, and he is correct. The reason Japan and Germany survived the war and prospered to become the 2nd and 3rd wealthiest economies by 1980, was massive American investment. Ironic isn't it. They lost the war but won the peace.

[pete376403]

We have a navy (sort of) - why not send them out to "scientifically harvest" some Jap whale ship crew (for research purposes only, of course.) We would be morally one up on the Japanese, as we wouldn't sell the meat afterwards.

[SPman]

We have a navy (sort of) - why not send them out to "scientifically harvest" some Jap whale ship crew (for research purposes only, of course.) We would be morally one up on the Japanese, as we wouldn't sell the meat afterwards.

Hmm - reminds me of an old guy I was talking to in New Guinea, back in '70.
"No like Japanese fella" "oh? Why?"
"too stringy!"

[Timber020]

Ony half of germany did very well (ask any east german). Japan was rebuilt by the allies but it was the Korean war that really got it moving.

Whaling is such a crock, but lets not forget that alot of the founding of NZ was due to whaling and sealing and we were still doing in well into this century.

I wonder how many whalers would need to be torpedoed to stop the rest. Hey the rainbow warrior bombers are probably in need of a job...

[Coldkiwi]

It wouldnt be so bad if they cut the bullshit and just said they wfere actively whaling.
But for scientific purposes?
Torpedo a couple of fucking Factory ships - Fuck em!

I like the way you're thinking john!

I say again, any one seen the scientific data on these whales? And why is it we can study most other species on this planet without slaughtering hundreds of them?

[Coldkiwi]

I wonder how many whalers would need to be torpedoed to stop the rest. Hey the rainbow warrior bombers are probably in need of a job...

yeah, but they're french and were useless. Couldn't even get away from our unprepared police force for crying out loud! Wouldn't trust those idiots to go and buy a paper myself.

The russians are good at sinking things (albeit normally their own after a nuclear mishap), why don't we ask them? :yes:

[Timber020]

No the french would be perfect, we could start a franco japanese conflict. Of course the japanese would win, but think of the entertainment.

[Pixie]

The Japanese Government has a strange idea of morality. How else can they claim a "moral victory" from their defeat at the IWC.
It seems that they have made the world aware of the "benefits" of their "research" into whales.
Still, it shouldn't be surprising given their revisionist views of the war they started in 1941.
Their Prime Minister visited Okinawa for the first time since 1945 and gave tribute to the sacrifice the victims made to ensure world peace, clearly including the Japanese dead. This was a war their military started, the sacrifice was actually made by the thousands of Americans and millions of civilians that the Japanese killed.
As I said, a strange idea of morality.
You picking on the Japs now?It used to be the yanks.Next you'll be having a go at the flowers. :motu:

[Pixie]

That hippy MP Carter said on the news that the world (of hippies) finds it unacceptable to shoot a grenade at an animal,chop it up,and serve it in a restaurant.
Now,what about ramming a compressed air syringe into an animal's head and blasting it's brains into a pink foam,chopping it up,and serving it in a restaurant?
Where is it that they do that?
Not good old ,non-hypocritical NZ,surely.

[TwoSeven]

They started the war.....

What rubbish. The US slapped a total economic embargo on them - unlike Saddam - Japan could fight back.

[Indiana_Jones]

What rubbish. The US slapped a total economic embargo on them - unlike Saddam - Japan could fight back.

Yeah, and Japan attacked?...
(not being sarcastic, I don't quite follow you?)

-Indy

[TwoSeven]

Japan and china were quietly having a war with each other (and china was losing - even being backed by the US as it was). The US issued an ultematum that japan remove all its forces from china or suffer an embargo. Japan refused and the US put a military blockade on all japanese shipping.

Now the whole reason japan and china had been having a war was because they were both fighting over oil. So as soon as japan had all of its oil supplies cut off, it needed to go find more. In order to do that, it had to remove the US, then create a buffer zone, so that the US couldnt re-empose the embargo. Hence the invasion of all the other places (if you draw it on the map, you'll find its a big circle around japan).

So, the US started the war with japan by being the original agressor.

[Brian d marge]

I eat whales ..... they are tassteee
There is a good book floating around which sets out the mind set and shows why they made the decision to expand into china ... Please remember Japan has only been open to western influence for about 100 years ,,more so since the end of the war ,,,but things are done today as they were done centurys ago ( arranged Marrages ) ,,
But they didnt think hokey lets go on a asian holiday ,,as we need some more oil ...The hand was really forced ,,In fact I think america went to war over terrorists quicker and with more ease thab the Japanese did when they had their Mancunian holiday .....
That style of shoganistic thinking STILL is apart of today society ( Kiego a form of speach used when speaking to a superior or older person, is used even between friends)
The thing I find strange is that the revised text books in this years school corriculum sort of glosses over the war ,,,and PISSED korea AND china off BIG style ( students again!!!)
BUT the diet ( government ) is made up of traditional fossils who Really are the last of the samuri ...( the 5 big banks here are from samuri class )
untill they die out and younger ones come in you will have older style decitions ,,,,,
The thing I find interesting are the young people who are following western trends and on the one hand want to be Japanese but on the other want to be american its an interesting place at the moment !!
Yes eating Rabbit and deer is VERY strange to the japanese ,,,whale is a fish and the same as a cow to you ,,,
Me as long as they dont over fish , I am cool ....Now FUGU as in the simpsons is REALLY nice ....
Very nice people that I like alot ( can be a bit slow at times ,,but,,,)

Stephen

[Indiana_Jones]

Japan and china were quietly having a war with each other (and china was losing - even being backed by the US as it was). The US issued an ultematum that japan remove all its forces from china or suffer an embargo. Japan refused and the US put a military blockade on all japanese shipping.

Now the whole reason japan and china had been having a war was because they were both fighting over oil. So as soon as japan had all of its oil supplies cut off, it needed to go find more. In order to do that, it had to remove the US, then create a buffer zone, so that the US couldnt re-empose the embargo. Hence the invasion of all the other places (if you draw it on the map, you'll find its a big circle around japan).

So, the US started the war with japan by being the original agressor.

Well yeah, I did say that? (unless I'm mistaken), like you said, the U.S. were ecomoniclly crippling them. And Japan didn't want to back down in it's war in China, so they attacked. It was the Jap's call.

-Indy

[Lou Girardin]

No the french would be perfect, we could start a franco japanese conflict. Of course the japanese would win, but think of the entertainment.

The French have nukes. The Japs would have to borrow them. I'll put my francs on France.

[Lou Girardin]

That hippy MP Carter said on the news that the world (of hippies) finds it unacceptable to shoot a grenade at an animal,chop it up,and serve it in a restaurant.
Now,what about ramming a compressed air syringe into an animal's head and blasting it's brains into a pink foam,chopping it up,and serving it in a restaurant?
Where is it that they do that?
Not good old ,non-hypocritical NZ,surely.

But whales are cute and sing nicely too.

[Lou Girardin]

So it's interesting that the Murkins have taken a leaf out of the Japs book and now wage undeclared wars of aggression.

[Jackrat]

The Japanese Government has a strange idea of morality. How else can they claim a "moral victory" from their defeat at the IWC.
It seems that they have made the world aware of the "benefits" of their "research" into whales.
Still, it shouldn't be surprising given their revisionist views of the war they started in 1941.
Their Prime Minister visited Okinawa for the first time since 1945 and gave tribute to the sacrifice the victims made to ensure world peace, clearly including the Japanese dead. This was a war their military started, the sacrifice was actually made by the thousands of Americans and millions of civilians that the Japanese killed.
As I said, a strange idea of morality.

So ya' going to sell ya' bike an buy USA in protest ?
I suspect selective morality ain't just a Japanse thing.