High visibility or highly overrated? Information flyer

[bogan]

Information about High Visibility motorcycle apparel, for motorcyclists, written by motorcyclists instead of pencil pushers with an agenda!

Go to the MAG-NZ site (http://www.mag-nz.org/campaigns/motorcycle-safety) for a 2 per page printable PDF.

Feel free to print a few copies to hand out at any unexpected roadside gatherings you find yourself part of :shifty:

[CookMySock]

Niiice. Keep up the good work! Much appreciated! :first:

[Devil]

Hrm, saying "inability to see the motorcycle" tends to imply that we cant be seen, not that they haven't looked properly, which I believe is what you're trying to get across...
Otherwise, good.

[superman]

Great stuff. Might print one off on the occasion I get stopped by police/acc check and they try to give me a high vis vest to put on. Umm, given the current statistical information I don't feel safe with the high vis vest on, but thank you for the offer. Here is a flyer explaining my reasoning :bleh:

[Fatt Max]

Brilliant work as always matey

[bogan]

Great stuff. Might print one off on the occasion I get stopped by police/acc check and they try to give me a high vis vest to put on. Umm, given the current statistical information I don't feel safe with the high vis vest on, but thank you for the offer. Here is a flyer explaining my reasoning :bleh:

a good use for it! I do wonder if the high vis advocates are aware of the situations when it is rendered ineffective...


Hrm, saying "inability to see the motorcycle" tends to imply that we cant be seen, not that they haven't looked properly, which I believe is what you're trying to get across...
Otherwise, good.

yeh, easy for that sorta thing to fall through the proof reading cracks, may update it tonight.

[buellbabe]

Interestingly when I 'glance at' the 2pics my eyes are drawn to the headlight in both cases.

I say glance rather than look cos thats about all that some car drivers do.

My own thoughts are that we all need to ride as defensively as we can, expect the unexpected. No matter what we do or what we wear there will always be dickheads who don't take the time to actually LOOK to see if the road is clear.

I could rant about the latest car that pulled out on me but I won't except to say I totally expected him to pull out and also that there is NO FREAKING WAY he didn't see me coming ...6.20am, no other traffic and the CR lights on FULL.

He saw me, he just didn't give a shit and THAT, in my opinion, is the biggest problem we face.

[CookMySock]

I say glance rather than look cos thats about all that some car drivers do.I agree, which why something about your bike must do a thing called "polarise" the person.

From wikipedia;
* Polarization (politics), the process by which the public opinion divides and goes to the extremes
* Polarization (psychology), the process whereby a social or political group is divided into opposing sub-groups

From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/polarize
* 2. To cause to concentrate about two conflicting or contrasting positions.
* 3. to cause people to adopt extreme opposing positions to polarize opinion

There are many ways to effect this outcome ; piercingly bright headlight, super loud exhaust, weave around like a lunatic, swing chain above head.. etc.

People won't like it, so it is up to the individual how much they are prepared to balance their personal safety about the general opinion of the public. Those overtly subscribed to public opinion will actively scream down my suggestion, where those who couldn't give a rats will shrug the thing off as irrelevant.

Cap, fits, wear, but in the end we all want the same thing - cagers to take that second look and stop killing motorcyclists.

[trailblazer]

that would be a great thing for us to have when we a pulled into an acc checkpoint. Police officer checks bike over you get a lecture by an acc worker then just as they hand you a flier. Oh yeah by the way here is a flier into a study that is currently under way so what is acc doing about the issues raised in our flier.
Great work mate.

[marty]

on a recent 900km trip on a black motard in black ATGATT leathers, i wore - for the first time - a reflective vest.

no-one pulled out in front of me, and not once did i think - that guy hasn't seen me. on reflection, i think it made a huge difference.

i have also taken to wearing a high-vis cycle top on my 25k ride to work on the open road. i am noticing people giving me a wider berth - either they are more aware of the cyclist, or they are just being sensible. i'll take the high vis path.

About 6 weeks ago i was driving to work at about 0530. i nearly hit a person on a country road - they were often out walking at that time but it was just one of those REALLY dark mornings. I stopped and gave them a reflector vest that i happened to have (my tyre-changing one that lived in my boot). the next morning i saw them again, wearing the vest. i saw them from about 200m away. 200m warning is a little better than 2m.......

[AllanB]

I believe visibility is directly related to the moon - depending on the moons relationship to the earth dictates how other road users view us.

It is obvious really - the moon is round as is a helmet. I rest my case and await a call from John Campbell.

[trailblazer]

on a recent 900km trip on a black motard in black ATGATT leathers, i wore - for the first time - a reflective vest.

no-one pulled out in front of me, and not once did i think - that guy hasn't seen me. on reflection, i think it made a huge difference.

i have also taken to wearing a high-vis cycle top on my 25k ride to work on the open road. i am noticing people giving me a wider berth - either they are more aware of the cyclist, or they are just being sensible. i'll take the high vis path.

About 6 weeks ago i was driving to work at about 0530. i nearly hit a person on a country road - they were often out walking at that time but it was just one of those REALLY dark mornings. I stopped and gave them a reflector vest that i happened to have (my tyre-changing one that lived in my boot). the next morning i saw them again, wearing the vest. i saw them from about 200m away. 200m warning is a little better than 2m.......
That was an awesome thing you did for that person and may have saved there life if there were that hard to see.

[Ocean1]

make eye contact where possible

I've developed the habit of glaring at anyone that aproaches my space. Including oncoming traffic. It starts as an early turn of the head and as the range decreases to the point they can actually see my eyes I stare straight at 'em. It invariably results in the glaree conceeding several inches of space.

But here's the thing: That "make room for the psycho biker" reaction often happens even when they haven't in fact seen me at all. It's not enough for me to instantly get religeon but some days I freak myself out a bit.

[maggot]

I've developed the habit of glaring at anyone that aproaches my space. Including oncoming traffic. It starts as an early turn of the head and as the range decreases to the point they can actually see my eyes I stare straight at 'em. It invariably results in the glaree conceeding several inches of space.

But here's the thing: That "make room for the psycho biker" reaction often happens even when they haven't in fact seen me at all. It's not enough for me to instantly get religeon but some days I freak myself out a bit.

I try that!
Unfortunately the FXR isn't the most intimidating looking of bikes..
Still sometimes works with small, asian women! :eek:

[FJRider]

That was an awesome thing you did for that person and may have saved there life if there were that hard to see.

He also came dam close to killing him ... :rolleyes:

[FJRider]

I believe visibility is directly related to the moon - depending on the moons relationship to the earth dictates how other road users view us.




I got my lucky Rabbits foot ... the rabbit wasn't as lucky though ... :doh:

[Maha]

That was an awesome thing you did for that person and may have saved there life if there were that hard to see.

Keep it in mind that it was during the darker hours which (for obvious reasons) they are more beneficial to wear. During the day, they are just another colour.
Some people dont even see an emergency vehicle with lights flashing until its alongside them.

[trailblazer]

Keep it in mind that it was during the darker hours which (for obvious reasons) they are more beneficial to wear. During the day, they are just another colour.
Some people dont even see an emergency vehicle with lights flashing until its alongside them.

totally agree with you there. Maybe walkers should be forced to wear a flashing led light around there hip if they wish to walk on the side of a country road during low light hours. Cyclists have to have a front light and a rear flashing light so i believe walkers and runners should to.

[buellbabe]

I've developed the habit of glaring at anyone that aproaches my space.

That made me laugh cos I do that too and I also yell at them "don't you even THINK about it a-hole!!!!!" Don't think they hear me but it makes me feel better LOL!

[joan of arc]

I was riding up to HB about a month ago when I saw an orange marshmallow on a bike approaching from the other direction. The high-viz orange puffer jacket was visible waaaaay before the head lights. Now, maybe I was atuned to other riders but I reckon that there was no way that rider was going to be missed by anyone else on the road. Fucking ugly though

[swbarnett]

I reckon that there was no way that rider was going to be missed by anyone else on the road.
Only those that are looking can see.

As of last week I've started wearing a black leather jacket (QStreet Black Rock - love it!). As far as I can tell there's been no change in the number of drivers seeing or not seeing me. But then, I take note of what a driver is doing far more than whether they've seen me or not. I never rely on being seen. I rely on my own observational skills instead, they are far more reliable.

[Hitcher]

Nice work. But in the same vein that has foisted high viz gear on construction workers and anybody doing official stuff near road and rail, nothing will stop a bureaucrat on a mission. Mandatory high viz kit for bikers is coming soon to a torso near you. This will have nothing to do with science or logic. Another win, unfortunately, for blind emotion. Sigh.

[Katman]

Mandatory high viz kit for bikers is coming soon to a torso near you. This will have nothing to do with science or logic. Another win, unfortunately, for blind emotion. Sigh.

And we will have no-one to blame but ourselves.

Double sigh.

[FJRider]

And we will have no-one to blame but ourselves.

Double sigh.

Just as ... ALL parents are to blame for the "Anti-Smacking" bill ... recently passed into law ...

[swbarnett]

Nice work. But in the same vein that has foisted high viz gear on construction workers and anybody doing official stuff near road and rail, nothing will stop a bureaucrat on a mission. Mandatory high viz kit for bikers is coming soon to a torso near you. This will have nothing to do with science or logic. Another win, unfortunately, for blind emotion. Sigh.
And the only way to fight it is for a large percentage of motorcyclists to refuse to wear them. I will be among the first to join this disobediant group.

[swbarnett]

And we will have no-one to blame but ourselves.

Double sigh.
Bollocks!

It is true that if the motorcycle crash rate was zero the safety zealots would leave us alone. However, this is so from rellevant it's in a parrellel universe.

We are not responsible for the fact that these safety zealots don't understand the laws of physics. The fact of the matter is that if we choose to live (and I mean live not survive) there will be casualties.

We are also not responsible for another's deluded mode of thinking when they wrongly believe that they have the right to save us from ourselves.

[Katman]

Really?

For as long as I can remember we've been crying "Wahhhh, they didn't see me" and everyone laps it up with "Yeah, fucking cagers - why don't they open their fucking eyes" instead of "Well, if you saw them, why didn't you avoid them?"

Sitting back and silently allowing a situation to turn to shit is as bad as those directly responsible for the shit in the first place.

[FJRider]

Really?

For as long as I can remember we've been crying "Wahhhh, they didn't see me" and everyone laps it up with "Yeah, fucking cagers - why don't they open their fucking eyes" instead of "Well, if you saw them, why didn't you avoid them?"

Sitting back and silently allowing a situation to turn to shit is as bad as those directly responsible for the shit in the first place.

"I never saw him" is usually the first response of the cage pilot ... after pulling out from Give-way and Stop signs (etc), in front of bikes ... when "interviewed" by Plod at the crash scene ...

[Katman]

"I never saw him" is usually the first response of the cage pilot ... after pulling out from Give-way and Stop signs (etc), in front of bikes ... when "interviewed" by Plod at the crash scene ...

And it's a response that has been loudly trumpeted by motorcyclists as a means to absolve themselves of any responsibility of using their own eyes and brain.

As I've said, it's now coming back to bite us in the arse.

[Genestho]

And it's a response that has been loudly trumpeted by motorcyclists as a means to absolve themselves of any responsibility of using their own eyes and brain.

As I've said, it's now coming back to bite us in the arse.

Of course there needs to be responsibility for us as a community to think for ourselves, but shite happens extremely quick sometimes, I know you disagree - but, not all situations can be foreseen or forwarned.

I'd like to see the "Think Bike" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Bike) which educates car drivers to share the roads with Motorcyclists; campaign in NZ, we can lead our own educational and safety campaigns targeting all vehicles and owners.

If Motorcyclists in NZ want to see this done, I would suggest there's capability for current groups to apply for charitable status and further applying for funding and leading similar campaigns in the community.

We have the ability to do this, we have some of NZ's top racers advocating safety already, see "this safety vid" (http://www.mac.sa.gov.au/v2_2009-08-06/noplacetorace/) an example from MRA (Motorcycle Riders Assn) supported by Govt in Australia.

We have various people in the community that could put together a fantastic series of long life ad campaigns.

[CookMySock]

Mandatory high viz kit for bikers is coming soon to a torso near you. No it won't. Tell them you do not consent. They cannot force you to wear an orange jacket if you do not consent. So don't.


This will have nothing to do with science or logic. Another win, unfortunately, for blind emotion. Sigh.You immediately consent and capitulate. Spot the error? Are you not angry enough yet? What will it take?

[davebullet]

At the end of the day (as I've seen no stats from other countries which have mandated high-vis and isolated all other accident "variables") - it's all speculation whether it will save many lives or not.

Even if it only saved one life a year - would we all think it was worth it? we would if that one life was someone near and dear!

I DO wear a high viz when commuting. I don't give a shit that I look fugly, as I look fugly with or without a helmet (at least that's what teenage kids tell me).

I do think there is merit in another thread on KB about reducing in car driver distractions. It seems bizarre the focus on limiting motorcycle choices, when car drivers seem to be getting extra gizmos to take away the boredom of driving (eg. facebook in the car - dear lord!)

PS: To add to the effect, I'm even thinking of buying the fluoro orange Schuberth C3 helmet (seriously!)

[swbarnett]

Really?

For as long as I can remember we've been crying "Wahhhh, they didn't see me" and everyone laps it up with "Yeah, fucking cagers - why don't they open their fucking eyes" instead of "Well, if you saw them, why didn't you avoid them?"
I actually agree with you on this. Although I have said as much myself, I do recognise that the onus is on oneself to look after your own skin. This is why my skin has never had major damage resulting from a motorcycle accident.


Sitting back and silently allowing a situation to turn to shit is as bad as those directly responsible for the shit in the first place.
I am not my brother's keeper. If someone has it in their head that they have the right to save me from myself there's bugger all I can do to change their minds. It is they that are responsible for their deluded mode of thinking, not I. And I'm damned if I'm going to start riding like a nanna just because of how it looks to those that know nothing about motorcycles.

[swbarnett]

Even if it only saved one life a year - would we all think it was worth it? we would if that one life was someone near and dear!
No I wouldn't. Freedom is far more valueable that any single human life. Why do you think so many people have freely given their lives throughout history it it's name?


I DO wear a high viz when commuting. I don't give a shit that I look fugly, as I look fugly with or without a helmet (at least that's what teenage kids tell me).
It's not about how you look. It's about the fact that we have an inalienable right to decide for ourselves what we will and won't do to save our own skin. To this end I would love to see even helmets made optional (I would still wear one but that's my choice, not anyone else's).

[Drew]

I got my lucky Rabbits foot ... the rabbit wasn't as lucky though ... :doh:

How can it be a "lucky" rabbits foot? Wasn't fuck all good for the rabbit, and it aint like it was a case of 'him or you'.

Just one of those questions I guess, like..."Why do men have nipples"?

[FJRider]

Just one of those questions I guess, like..."Why do men have nipples"?

So it's easier people to pull your tit ... :innocent:

[Katman]

Just one of those questions I guess, like..."Why do men have nipples"?

Actually because the nipples start forming before the embryo even determines whether it will be a boy or a girl.

[jellywrestler]

nipples
Hehehe, He said nipples!

[Usarka]

Really?

For as long as I can remember we've been crying "Wahhhh, they didn't see me" and everyone laps it up with "Yeah, fucking cagers - why don't they open their fucking eyes" instead of "Well, if you saw them, why didn't you avoid them?"

Sitting back and silently allowing a situation to turn to shit is as bad as those directly responsible for the shit in the first place.

You are a goose.

Any auckland rider will tell you they have to ride like this to survive on a daily basis. If we posted every time we proactively avoided a car trying to kill us then the site would fall over and spank would have to outsource the site storage to NASA.

[Ocean1]

Last edited by Usarka; Today at 20:01. Reason: will get told off for abuse

Wuss......

[davebullet]

It's not about how you look. It's about the fact that we have an inalienable right to decide for ourselves what we will and won't do to save our own skin. To this end I would love to see even helmets made optional (I would still wear one but that's my choice, not anyone else's).

I think many are actually more worried about how they look. After all a high viz vest would be your cheapest piece of ATGATT - so why don't people with the best leathers and Arai wear them?

Bring on personal insurance in that case. Really - I don't want to subsidise all those that choose not to wear ATGATT.

I don't think we have a right when everyone pays for someone elses skin grafts and reconstruction surgery because they exercised their right not to wear any protective gear.

[davebullet]

You are a goose.

Any auckland rider will tell you they have to ride like this to survive on a daily basis. If we posted every time we proactively avoided a car trying to kill us then the site would fall over and spank would have to outsource the site storage to NASA.

Now the thread has derailed (that isn't a slight against your post either), we have to acknowledge that no car driver is trying to kill us. I know that is just a saying to make you hyper aware, but reality is most car drivers are in a daze and motorcyclists don't allow a margin for error.

PS: Love your user title :laugh:

[swbarnett]

I think many are actually more worried about how they look. After all a high viz vest would be your cheapest piece of ATGATT - so why don't people with the best leathers and Arai wear them?
You are right, for a lot of people it is about the look. However, there are those of us that are not convinced that they do any good at all in the first place.


Bring on personal insurance in that case. Really - I don't want to subsidise all those that choose not to wear ATGATT.

I don't think we have a right when everyone pays for someone elses skin grafts and reconstruction surgery because they exercised their right not to wear any protective gear.
Think of it another way. You don't pay for skin grafts and reconstruction surgery, you pay for freedom of thought and choice.

Besides, a naked rider with their head screwed on is a damn site safer and will cost us far less in ACC than an ATGATT that has their brain in neutral.

Why should I be penalised because I believe that the most important piece of protective gear lies between my ears?

[davebullet]

You are right, for a lot of people it is about the look. However, there are those of us that are not convinced that they do any good at all in the first place.


Think of it another way. You don't pay for skin grafts and reconstruction surgery, you pay for freedom of thought and choice.

Besides, a naked rider with their head screwed on is a damn site safer and will cost us far less in ACC than an ATGATT that has their brain in neutral.

Why should I be penalised because I believe that the most important piece of protective gear lies between my ears?

The licensing system is too slack / easy to obtain. Even if you tightened up so that only clued up riders could ride, even good people have off days (lack of concentration). People will make mistakes.

As I said - all for freedom of choice - but you have to have that with personal insurance and stuff this ACC crap. Since I believe communal insurance will be here to stay - there should be communal responsbility, otherwise we'll end up with a fuck you dog eat dog society (oh wait - we're already there) - make that a worse society.

[Fatt Max]

I dont wear high viz during the day, only when its dark or misty or whatever, but I make sure that its clean and the reflective strips are clean. No point wearing day glo vests without the strips so these poor quality free high viz vests can fuck off as far as I am concerned.

And then you go ahead and wear the right gear, jacket, boots, trousers, gloves and lid, just like I was wearing when I was bowled by that lady a year ago. She was found to be at fault, was prosecuted and all that that. But the bastard fuckface wanking insurance companies wont pay out on the gear, the gear that I wear as part of my personal responsibility as a rider.

I can see these corporate pig insurance firms jumping on the high viz bandwagon and not paying out unless you were wearing one. These companies need to recognise protective equipment for what it is....and pay out 100%...

....as my brother said after my crash..."what do you mean she didnt see you, how could she not see you, I mean you being such a fat c**t and all that...."

[GOONR]

I dont wear high viz during the day, only when its dark or misty or whatever, but I make sure that its clean and the reflective strips are clean. No point wearing day glo vests without the strips so these poor quality free high viz vests can fuck off as far as I am concerned.

And then you go ahead and wear the right gear, jacket, boots, trousers, gloves and lid, just like I was wearing when I was bowled by that lady a year ago. She was found to be at fault, was prosecuted and all that that. But the bastard fuckface wanking insurance companies wont pay out on the gear, the gear that I wear as part of my personal responsibility as a rider.

I can see these corporate pig insurance firms jumping on the high viz bandwagon and not paying out unless you were wearing one. These companies need to recognise protective equipment for what it is....and pay out 100%...

....as my brother said after my crash..."what do you mean she didnt see you, how could she not see you, I mean you being such a fat c**t and all that...."

Mate, you are clearly visible.

[Blackflagged]

Lot of pedestrians get hit by cars, maybe all pedestrians should were high Viz jackets
and there pets,& fisherman.

High Viz Jackets don`t seem to help cyclist much though.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10626761

[davebullet]

I can see these corporate pig insurance firms jumping on the high viz bandwagon and not paying out unless you were wearing one. These companies need to recognise protective equipment for what it is....and pay out 100%..."

If your motorcycle and contents insurance is with the same underwriter (insurance company) then you are usually covered by one or other policy. In otherwords, there can be no finger pointing as it comes back to the same insurance company.

HEnce why it pays to ask your broker to get you the best package deal with one insurer. House vs. contents insurance (eg. house insurance covers your water cylinder because it is fixed), contents is usually carpet (because technically it is removable).

All I'm saying is use the one company to minimise the "you're not covered risk"

[swbarnett]

The licensing system is too slack / easy to obtain. Even if you tightened up so that only clued up riders could ride, even good people have off days (lack of concentration). People will make mistakes.
Yes, but a clued up rider will make fewer mistakes than others and any lack of gear will be less of an issue.

[Owl]

But the bastard fuckface wanking insurance companies wont pay out on the gear, the gear that I wear as part of my personal responsibility as a rider.

Time to review your insurance then Max? Many include gear in their motorcycle policies, whether that be indemnity or replacement.

[miloking]

And the only way to fight it is for a large percentage of motorcyclists to refuse to wear them. I will be among the first to join this disobediant group.

It wont be that easy with $400 fine and 35 demerits slapped on your licence...for any such disobedience...

Could be worse tho we could be all living in Libya....

[Eyegasm]

I'd wear a high vis... only after it has been dyed black!!!

[Maha]

I'd wear a high vis... only after it has been dyed black!!!

You do know there are black reflector vest avaliable eh?
Not hi-viz for obvious reasons so I dont really see the point.

[swbarnett]

It wont be that easy with $400 fine and 35 demerits slapped on your licence...for any such disobedience...
So when do we make a stand against the nanny state that is determined to take away ALL our right one at a time?

[Usarka]

You do know there are black reflector vest avaliable eh?
Not hi-viz for obvious reasons so I dont really see the point.

A black reflective vest probably is high vis during sunstrike hours.

Black will stand out against the glare for people looking into the sun, and the reflective bit will stand out for people with the sun behind them.

[oneofsix]

A black reflective vest probably is high vis during sunstrike hours.

Black will stand out against the glare for people looking into the sun, and the reflective bit will stand out for people with the sun behind them.

Good I will stick with my Black bike jacket with its 3M reflective strips :clap:
Or do I need to get one of those vest things so it can act as a wind sock? Is the point of the hi-vis vest having the vest?

[Drew]

And then you go ahead and wear the right gear, jacket, boots, trousers, gloves and lid, just like I was wearing when I was bowled by that lady a year ago. She was found to be at fault, was prosecuted and all that that. But the bastard fuckface wanking insurance companies wont pay out on the gear, the gear that I wear as part of my personal responsibility as a rider.



Your contents insurance should though.

[Usarka]

Your contents insurance should though.

Shouldn't the other persons insurance pay for what they wreck?

[Drew]

Shouldn't the other persons insurance pay for what they wreck?

What should and does happen, are very different things.

When ACC stopped shelling out on safety gear, house and contents insurance providers took up the cause. Give yours a call and see what the guts is, most of them will only pay a percentage of gear less than two years old. If you get in touch with them with prices and get a shop to certify that the gear is in good condition I doubt you'll have any trouble insuring older gear than that though.