Crown accounts $14bn worse off

[mashman]

:killingme and we're surprised (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8968502/crown-accounts-14bn-worse-off/)... I wonder how much them thar tax cuts cost the Crown :facepalm:, because it sure looks like it worked the promised magic, food prices are stable, fuel prices are stable, there are enough jobs for everyone, there's plenty of housing to go around etc...

[p.dath]

There has been a global economic recession ... and I think you'll find most countries are worse off.

There is nothing special about our case.

[Banditbandit]

There is nothing special about our case.

Yeah .. there is .. the Nats bought their way into power with tax cuts - and they then had to replace that lost income with borrowing ...

And the barstards practice monetarist economics ... which is about the worst way to run an economy ...

[Quasievil]

All we need now is Labours lolly bag election winning strategy to kick in and we will be truly fucked.

[onearmedbandit]

Yeah .. there is .. the Nats bought their way into power with tax cuts - and they then had to replace that lost income with borrowing ...

And the barstards practice monetarist economics ... which is about the worst way to run an economy ...

Did they vote themselves in? That's a pretty cool trick if they did...

[admenk]

Don't worry, Winston Peters will sort it all out after the election :innocent:

[avgas]

Did they vote themselves in? That's a pretty cool trick if they did...
740,000 people didn't agree with with their policies. Unfortunately the same 740K didn't agree with Labours either so gave up with the idea of voting all together.

If it helps to know. Only 34% of people actually voted for national

[Indiana_Jones]

Yeah .. there is .. the Nats bought their way into power with tax cuts

I don't recall the uni students complaining when aunty helen did the same thing in 2005 lol

-Indy

[Banditbandit]

All we need now is Labours lolly bag election winning strategy to kick in and we will be truly fucked.

Don't buy into the national bullshit about labour - or labour's bullshit about national ...

Here's an interesting treasury paper ...

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/financialstatements/yearend/jun10/09.htm

Have a look under Debt .. it shows that our net debt was falling from 2001 to 2008 .. then the Nats came in .. and guess what - debt is rising again ...

It also shows we've gone from a $2billion Govt surplus in 2008 (Labour Gvt) to a $9billion Govt deficit in 2010. Sure, some of that can be blammed on the world economy - but soem of it is the responsibility of the Govt - who aren't decreasing spending at all.

These figures speak stronger than political rhetoric ..

So, which is the party of the lolly scramble? - remember the Nats promised tax cuts ... and paid for them by borrowing ...

[Whynot]

740,000 people didn't agree with with their policies. Unfortunately the same 740K didn't agree with Labours either so gave up with the idea of voting all together.

so you're saying that 740,000 people don't give a fuck about politics .....

[onearmedbandit]

so you're saying that 740,000 people don't give a fuck about politics .....

More to the point, 740k didn't give a fuck about their future or that of the nation.

[The Stranger]

Yeah .. there is .. the Nats bought their way into power with tax cuts..

Still I find there is a certain honesty to that approach.
It didn't matter if you're student, a woman or a darkie you were still entitled to your tax cut - unlike the last lot of robin(g) hoods.

[Whynot]

More to the point, 740k didn't give a fuck about their future or that of the nation.

and that surprises you?

[onearmedbandit]

and that surprises you?

I never said it did.

[imdying]

More to the point, 740k didn't give a fuck about their future or that of the nation.Perhaps it's a vote of no confidence. They might feel that no matter which way they vote, they'll get shat on from above.

[onearmedbandit]

Perhaps it's a vote of no confidence. They might feel that no matter which way they vote, they'll get shat on from above.

Good point, and no doubt to a degree very valid.

[p.dath]

Yeah .. there is .. the Nats bought their way into power with tax cuts - and they then had to replace that lost income with borrowing ...

Perhaps you have a short memory. Both Labour and National campaigned on providing tax cuts.

[admenk]

Maybe there should be a minimum voter turnout level set before the election becomes valid. That way we could register our disapproval of the choice (or lack of) on offer. Only question is who governs while we're waiting for a high enough turnout...

[Bald Eagle]

Well the countries economy is smaller than some companies, appoint a ceo and board of directors ( 12 people max ) huge saving .....problem solved no more politics.

[mashman]

And the barstards practice monetarist economics ... which is about the worst way to run an economy ...

wot he said :)



All we need now is Labours lolly bag election winning strategy to kick in and we will be truly fucked.

There's a difference between being fucked and financially raped :)

[mashman]

so you're saying that 740,000 people don't give a fuck about politics .....

i'm guessing 740k have voted by not voting... and the not giving a shit about politics is just a symptom

[Drunken Monkey]

Well the countries economy is smaller than some companies, appoint a ceo and board of directors ( 12 people max ) huge saving .....problem solved no more politics.

What do we do with people we want to make redundant? Send them to South America?

[Bald Eagle]

What do we do with people we want to make redundant? Send them to South America?
:yes: or somewhere north of the arctic circle - lots of empty space up there.

[Quasievil]

I vote those on the social welfare system dont get a vote, only those employed that pay for the life challenged get a vote, those are the people being fucked over by having to pay the handouts, the life challenged merely look for the biggest offer to enhance their parasitic lifestyle.
And yes they exist 5000 parasites in the Waikato alone have been on the benefit for over ten years, thats a parasite.

This country is suffering from the gravy train politics of enabling every minority / cause / life challenged person / group with a cause .....to suckle on the tit of the working citizen and frankly it has to stop, and it has to stop now.

Additionally while Im at it, we have the population of a city and the political structure of a large country that is paralyzed with the disfunctional and agenda riddled MMP system...........this to has to stop, it prevents progress.

And finally, any party that dont / cant run this country like a business suck:yes: because thats what it is people, its all about money, and if this country cant make it well then its over

[Blackflagged]

Don't buy into the national bullshit about labour - or labour's bullshit about national ...

Here's an interesting treasury paper ...

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/financialstatements/yearend/jun10/09.htm

Have a look under Debt .. it shows that our net debt was falling from 2001 to 2008 .. then the Nats came in .. and guess what - debt is rising again ...

It also shows we've gone from a $2billion Govt surplus in 2008 (Labour Gvt) to a $9billion Govt deficit in 2010. Sure, some of that can be blammed on the world economy - but soem of it is the responsibility of the Govt - who aren't decreasing spending at all.

These figures speak stronger than political rhetoric ..

So, which is the party of the lolly scramble? - remember the Nats promised tax cuts ... and paid for them by borrowing ...

That links graph shows a % of GDP so when the ecomony goes to shit (and things just got worse) gdp falls the debt% of gdp goes up, no matter who`s running the place.
And they payed for the cuts with a GST Rise.
Also have a look at govt spending between 2001-2008

[mashman]

I vote those on the social welfare system dont get a vote, only those employed that pay for the life challenged get a vote, those are the people being fucked over by having to pay the handouts, the life challenged merely look for the biggest offer to enhance their parasitic lifestyle.
And yes they exist 5000 parasites in the Waikato alone have been on the benefit for over ten years, thats a parasite.

This country is suffering from the gravy train politics of enabling every minority / cause / life challenged person / group with a cause .....to suckle on the tit of the working citizen and frankly it has to stop, and it has to stop now.

Additionally while Im at it, we have the population of a city and the political structure of a large country that is paralyzed with the disfunctional and agenda riddled MMP system...........this to has to stop, it prevents progress.

And finally, any party that dont / cant run this country like a business suck:yes: because thats what it is people, its all about money, and if this country cant make it well then its over

So, they're gettin money for free, so do you with bank interest... sounds fair to me. What's the alternative?

Agreed with the gravy train politics and money/jobs for the boys agendas.

If you want to run the country like a business, you need to think smarter than the rest of the world. The only way NZ can successfully compete in the global marketplace, is for the entire country to pool its resources... but we won't do that, because we're too fuckin precious about what we've earned... aye, run it like a business, that'll work :blink:

[Quasievil]

So, they're gettin money for free, so do you with bank interest... sounds fair to me. What's the alternative?

Agreed with the gravy train politics and money/jobs for the boys agendas.

If you want to run the country like a business, you need to think smarter than the rest of the world. The only way NZ can successfully compete in the global marketplace, is for the entire country to pool its resources... but we won't do that, because we're too fuckin precious about what we've earned... aye, run it like a business, that'll work :blink:

Bank interest ? thats assuming I have a balance, most people struggle when it comes to banking spare cash as we are to busy propping up the gravy train with taxes, that goes for more than the social welfare system, consultants to the government, Maori and other PC crap costs us a fortune. Not to mention we a radically underpaid.
Pool resources? like how tho ?
We can for a start make it easier to do business here the red tape blockages are not favorable for new business ventures......resource consent, corporate tax rate for a start

[mashman]

Bank interest ? thats assuming I have a balance, most people struggle when it comes to banking spare cash as we are to busy propping up the gravy train with taxes, that goes for more than the social welfare system, consultants to the government, Maori and other PC crap costs us a fortune. Not to mention we a radically underpaid.
Pool resources? like how tho ?
We can for a start make it easier to do business here the red tape blockages are not favorable for new business ventures......resource consent, corporate tax rate for a start

heh, I hear you in regards to the interest and paying for the "undesirable", although not the undesirables you're talking about. They don't contribute to society and when I look at society, I can't say I blame them. Why bother if you're essentially getting nothing for something.

Pooling resources, as in throw all of our money in Kiwibank for 1. Share our jobs for another. Similar to car pooling using less fuel, causing less wear on the roads, or buying a jug of beer between 5 instead of single beers each. Same principle, some have a better car, some have more money for beer, some have better management skills, some are better grafters etc... I'm sure you will point out why the above isn't possible...

Smarter, not looser :shifty:...

[EJK]

So.... whats the forecast for NZX 50? Will the rugby worldcup give any boost?

[Quasievil]

heh, I hear you in regards to the interest and paying for the "undesirable", although not the undesirables you're talking about. They don't contribute to society and when I look at society, I can't say I blame them. Why bother if you're essentially getting nothing for something.

yeah but watch them change when the system changes


Pooling resources, as in throw all of our money in Kiwibank for 1.

Maybe but Kiwibank arent interested in business banking, its the peoples bank, things need to change there (im currently with Kiwibank as I thought the same)

[Taz]

Hi My name is Taz and I've never voted. Why encourage the bastards?

[mashman]

yeah but watch them change when the system changes

I doubt there'll be any change at all... a govt would have to bring in communist styled policies to get the uninterested involved in the financial economy. Seriously, better to spend all day at home than to get out and work for essentially a similar amount of money after rent, tax, GST on goods etc... You can't force someone to work.



Maybe but Kiwibank arent interested in business banking, its the peoples bank, things need to change there (im currently with Kiwibank as I thought the same)

I agree. How much do you reckon the country could make, via Kiwibank, if everyone in the country piled their excess money into the bank? Fresh, not borrowed, money into a market that's desperate for the stuff... Dodgy idea in its own way, but it's better than just ticking over and waiting for the hammer to fall?

[Quasievil]

You can't force someone to work.



Oh yes you can

Road of Bones
Bride over the river Kwai

two examples

Ok im being silly, but seriously tho I think a dictatorship would work well in New Zealand, especially with me at the helm, imagine life with me as the dictator
Bike only roads, no speeding fines for bikers, only one brand of leathers :blink:

Ok Im still being silly.

[Elysium]

Don't worry, Winston Peters will sort it all out after the election :innocent:

Amen to that!

[Indiana_Jones]

....It also shows we've gone from a $2billion Govt surplus in 2008 (Labour Gvt) to a $9billion Govt deficit in 2010. Sure, some of that can be blammed on the world economy - but soem of it is the responsibility of the Govt - who aren't decreasing spending at all.

Would this be the same labour government that blew $700 million on a broken train set as they knew they were getting booted out?

And decreasing spending, would be nice, but all those civil servants in Wellington will scream blue murder. Then the media will run stories on how the government is 'reducing service' etc.

-Indy

[slowpoke]

740,000 people didn't agree with with their policies. Unfortunately the same 740K didn't agree with Labours either so gave up with the idea of voting all together.

If it helps to know. Only 34% of people actually voted for national


Perhaps it's a vote of no confidence. They might feel that no matter which way they vote, they'll get shat on from above.

I dunno, the 2 evils may both be unappealing but they aren't the same. If folks aren't smart enough to choose the lesser of 2 evils then they shouldn't complain about whatever they get.

The sad thing is most people don't follow a fuckin' thing that actually affects their lives then throw their hands up in confusion, or worse, vote on the headlines the week before the election. So many people think the back sports pages or the middle gossip section of the paper are more important than the stuff on the front that actually impacts on their lives. More fool them.

[CookMySock]

There has been a global economic recession ... and I think you'll find most countries are worse off.What's that? Did all the money suddenly go up in flames or something?

[p.dath]

What's that? Did all the money suddenly go up in flames or something?

Pretty close to it. People paid more for assets than they were worth, with borrowed money, a market adjustment happened and prices reset, the banks couldn't be repaid, selling assets didn't allow the debt to be paid off, finance companies went under, people lost jobs and their homes, etc.

So pretty much yes. The money went up in flames.

[oneofsix]

Pretty close to it. People paid more for assets than they were worth, with borrowed money, a market adjustment happened and prices reset, the banks couldn't be repaid, selling assets didn't allow the debt to be paid off, finance companies went under, people lost jobs and their homes, etc.

So pretty much yes. The money went up in flames.

That's not the crown accounts. The Govt didn't spend that money, they did however buy some rather expensive BMWs

[Quasievil]

That's not the crown accounts. The Govt didn't spend that money, they did however buy some rather expensive BMWs

The actual price paid was cheap, $80k odd.
of course the greens will be in a horse and cart and labour will be in a lada............both being true to their cause

[Str8 Jacket]

they did however buy some rather expensive BMWs

:facepalm:

Believe everything the media throws at you do you? The BMW's would have been purchased no matter what party was governing at the time.... And believe you me only those of us that work in that space know how much the vehicles wre purchased for, to disclose this information would be illegal.

[oneofsix]

:facepalm:

Believe everything the media throws at you do you? The BMW's would have been purchased no matter what party was governing at the time....

just an example of govt spend verses public/personal spend as quoted by p.dath

[Str8 Jacket]

just an example of govt spend verses public/personal spend as quoted by p.dath

No, not at all.

[Banditbandit]

We can for a start make it easier to do business here the red tape blockages are not favorable for new business ventures......resource consent, corporate tax rate for a start

That may be the local perception - but on the world scale, we are one of the cheapest countries in the world for business compliance costs and one fo the most business-friendly countries in the world to do business - we rank third for ease of doing business according to the World Bank (whioch as a completely neo-liberal orgtanisation I would think you would regard them highly)

Go here http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings



So.... whats the forecast for NZX 50? Will the rugby worldcup give any boost?

Naa .. we'll lose, everyone will get depressed and so will our economy ...

[Banditbandit]

The actual price paid was cheap, $80k odd.
of course the greens will be in a horse and cart and labour will be in a lada............both being true to their cause

I'm terribly sorry, but you are completely wrong about Labour - a Lada would never have got Auntie Helen to the rugby game on time ...

[avgas]

More to the point, 740k didn't give a fuck about their future or that of the nation.
Give me 1 change that happened in NZ due to the Government.
I will give you 100,000 things that changed in spite of them.

If the NZ Government directly dictated NZ's future - NZ would resemble a concentration camp

[avgas]

i'm guessing 740k have voted by not voting... and the not giving a shit about politics is just a symptom
Shhhhhh - they don't count in a democracy apparently.
Otherwise there would be at least 6 less politicians on payroll......

[superman]

100% CAPITILISM! Dooo it. How fucked would everyone be :lol: 'cept the rich.

[Quasievil]

Give me 1 change that happened in NZ due to the Government.
I will give you 100,000 things that changed in spite of them.

If the NZ Government directly dictated NZ's future - NZ would resemble a concentration camp

Interest Free student loans

your turn
:wait::wait:

[Banditbandit]

Oh yes you can

Road of Bones
Bride over the river Kwai

two examples

Ok im being silly, but seriously tho I think a dictatorship would work well in New Zealand, especially with me at the helm, imagine life with me as the dictator
Bike only roads, no speeding fines for bikers, only one brand of leathers :blink:

Ok Im still being silly.

I hope you can duck fast .. I am violently opposed to dictators and would welcome the opportunity to prove just how violently opposed ...

[onearmedbandit]

Give me 1 change that happened in NZ due to the Government.
I will give you 100,000 things that changed in spite of them.

If the NZ Government directly dictated NZ's future - NZ would resemble a concentration camp


Gee my bad, I was under the assumption they were in control of things like national spending, law and order, education, health policy etc.

[Quasievil]

I hope you can duck fast .. I am violently opposed to dictators and would welcome the opportunity to prove just how violently opposed ...

But I would be a really good one, tell you what you can be my 2IC in charge of promo girls:yes:

[Toaster]

I hope you can duck fast .. I am violently opposed to dictators and would welcome the opportunity to prove just how violently opposed ...

So what violence did you partake in when Dictator Clark ran NZ with an iron man-bag?

[Banditbandit]

But I would be a really good one, tell you what you can be my 2IC in charge of promo girls:yes:

Dangerous .. that just lets me get close enough to use a pistol ...

[Banditbandit]

So what violence did you partake in when Dictator Clark ran NZ with an iron man-bag?

No, I'm sorry. Much as I may have disliked the woman, she was never a dictator .. Now Jozef Stalin, Muammar Gaddafi, Ferdinand Marcos, Adolf Hitler, Mobuto Sese Seko ... these are all dictators ...

We didn't shoot Clarke - we voted her out - not a dictatorship ..

[mashman]

:rofl: and where the fuck was he going to get 33 billion from without borrowing? (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8978677/selling-crown-assets-more-necessary-now/), especially when the reported asset sale was only going to generate 10 billion... politics is so confusing :blink:

[Quasievil]

:rofl: and where the fuck was he going to get 33 billion from without borrowing? (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8978677/selling-crown-assets-more-necessary-now/), especially when the reported asset sale was only going to generate 10 billion... politics is so confusing :blink:

Aint we lucky to have a money man in charge, god help us if we didnt.

[Banditbandit]

:rofl: and where the fuck was he going to get 33 billion from without borrowing? (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8978677/selling-crown-assets-more-necessary-now/), especially when the reported asset sale was only going to generate 10 billion... politics is so confusing :blink:

No, it's quite simply really - just the dickhead professional politicians serve their own interests by makign it sound complicated - if we understood what they were doing we would vote them out - ALL of them ...

And does he really think private enterprise can run things better than Government ???

Air New ZEaland
The Railways
BNZ
Telecoms
The power system

All sold by the Government - and most had to be bailed out or bought back because Private Enterprise stuffed them up ... The rest are still screwing us over and stuffing us up ...

[pete376403]

:facepalm:

Believe everything the media throws at you do you? The BMW's would have been purchased no matter what party was governing at the time.... And believe you me only those of us that work in that space know how much the vehicles wre purchased for, to disclose this information would be illegal.

As I understand it, the BMWs were actually a good, no GREAT deal. Bought cheap, maintained free, and will (probably) be sold for more than they cost. Of course they want to repeat the process, who wouldn't?
The only thing that our National-biased media can't stomach is that it was a Labour deal.

[Banditbandit]

Hmmm .. Key reckons that private enterpsie does it better than the Govt sector? Then why have they just bailed out TV3 and several other broadcasting companies?

http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/helping-hand-private-media-company-4052038

[mashman]

Hmmm .. Key reckons that private enterpsie does it better than the Govt sector? Then why have they just bailed out TV3 and several other broadcasting companies?

http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/helping-hand-private-media-company-4052038

only $387 million of debt... they're doing really well :blink:

[onearmedbandit]

Hmmm .. Key reckons that private enterpsie does it better than the Govt sector? Then why have they just bailed out TV3 and several other broadcasting companies?

http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/helping-hand-private-media-company-4052038

Fuck, if only we had something to blame it on eh. Something like...um....I don't know....maybe...yeah maybe a worldwide recession where advertising is one of the first areas where businesses start reducing expenditure....and then maybe as TV and Radio rely on advertising dollars then that would explain it. But nah I'm just being silly now.

[mashman]

Fuck, if only we had something to blame it on eh. Something like...um....I don't know....maybe...yeah maybe a worldwide recession where advertising is one of the first areas where businesses start reducing expenditure....and then maybe as TV and Radio rely on advertising dollars then that would explain it. But nah I'm just being silly now.

yeah, if in doubt, blame the recession :blink:... i'm not saying it doesn't have knock on effects, but i'm in a recession and i don;t get any relief on my bills... fortunately I saved up for a rainy day... perhaps business should try that rainy day thing instead of syphoning the profits off for bonuses and exorbitant salaries? Recession my ass, plenty of businesses are making it through the tough times, and not all, not even close, are suckling at the govt tit.

I don't accept the recession as an excuse in this case :bleh:

[The Stranger]

yeah, if in doubt, blame the recession :blink:... i'm not saying it doesn't have knock on effects, but i'm in a recession and i don;t get any relief on my bills... fortunately I saved up for a rainy day... perhaps business should try that rainy day thing instead of syphoning the profits off for bonuses and exorbitant salaries? Recession my ass, plenty of businesses are making it through the tough times, and not all, not even close, are suckling at the govt tit.

I don't accept the recession as an excuse in this case :bleh:

I'm going to go out on a limb here. You've never run a business or managed a company then, with the possible exception of being a self employed contractor of sorts.

[mashman]

I'm going to go out on a limb here. You've never run a business or managed a company then, with the possible exception of being a self employed contractor of sorts.

Damn, you should be on TV with psychic powers like that :). I know I'll regret this, but do you have a point? Is it that businesses don't save for rainy days because they can't afford it?

[The Stranger]

Is it that businesses don't save for rainy days because they can't afford it?

Of course I have a point - not everything is black and white, yet you answer black and white and ask me a question that is so too.

Let me answer your question with a question. Were you a motorcycle dealer, how much would you have put away for a rainy day during the halcyon days?

Not that I'm a motorcycle dealer, but I would be happy to bet that (in general) they made SFA surplus to "put away". Were they making heaps (i.e.enough to put away), more would enter the market and under cut their margins to try and take their share of these big fat profits. What happened to motorcycle dealers when the recession hit? How many wealthy dealers do you see (that didn't start wealthy)?

In short, in answer to the question, there are those that can and those that did. But it's frequently not an option, particularly in industries where there is tight competition - or where say private enterprise is expected to compete with a government backed gorilla.

[mashman]

Of course I have a point - not everything is black and white, yet you answer black and white and ask me a question that is so too.

Let me answer your question with a question. Were you a motorcycle dealer, how much would you have put away for a rainy day during the halcyon days?

Not that I'm a motorcycle dealer, but I would be happy to bet that (in general) they made SFA surplus to "put away". Were they making heaps (i.e.enough to put away), more would enter the market and under cut their margins to try and take their share of these big fat profits. What happened to motorcycle dealers when the recession hit? How many wealthy dealers do you see (that didn't start wealthy)?

In short, in answer to the question, there are those that can and those that did. But it's frequently not an option, particularly in industries where there is tight competition - or where say private enterprise is expected to compete with a government backed gorilla.

That's fair enough. The black and white view is unfair, but so is having the money and not having the money. You do or you don't. Again, potentially not fair given "industrial" competition.

In answer to your question. As much as I didn't need to spend. If I was serious about keeping MY business afloat (this isn't an oh this is how it should be done, I am after all inexperienced :)) for the future, then I would save as much as I didn't need to spend, initially. After that, I would calculate the potential amount required to keep my business afloat in a worst case scenario, that worst case scenario potentially being 6 months of no "high" profit item sales. IF i have a handle on my comings and goings, I would hopefully have enough information to generate future cost/expenditure prediction models and know where my worst case scenario tipover point was. Or something like that :).

If you're still in business and breaking even, then i'd call that wealthy too :) (in a recession that is)

[Brian d marge]

Where do you start ...

Didn't I say they would do this under the disguise of the earthquake

The selling of the assets was going to happen either under a labour or national ( it really doesn't matter who you vote for , the one with the most social conscience)

Maori party ...hello?? aren't you for keeping Nz in NZ hands and the future of Maori ???...just a thought ,.....

I ll keep banging on about this till I am blue tin the face , we are being "advised " by the IMF . Simple.

Jk is just a compliant mouth piece

A multi-national , will come in , strip the assets then run . ( I think you are all aware that it has happened before )

So
Your national forests , beautiful bit of the planet earth . Sold ( most likely to the Chinese ) dig it up , extract the coal sell it to the Chinese who need good quality coal for steel making

So the possibility of a Chinese company having large shares in Solid energy , Digging up large chunks of the west coast , in order to sell coal to the Chinese .

Where does that leave NZ

Forget Jk , forget National , labour or what ever . Say NO to globalisation

Now before anyone starts. Globalisation isn't about buying stuff on the Internet. Its about large ( and I mean Large ) corporations who have no interest apart from their own, exploiting resources for profit.

DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN. You think ACC and Rego is a pain in the arse , you wait

Water?? , water meters under the guise of saving money ? has that happened yet ?

Electricity? Health ? Education? .....FOOD ???? have these increased in price??

Food... fFS , NZ is the garden of the world ,( Just like Ireland was the garden of England ) Look what happened to Ireland .. potatoes anyone ??

The Government could easily use the state of national emergency to rebuild CHCH, IT DOESN'T NEED TO SELL ASSETS.

Rousseau said;
If, therefore, we take from the social compact every thing that is not essential to it, we shall find it reduced to the following terms: "We, the contracting parties. do jointly and severally submit our persons and abilities, to the supreme direction of the general will of all, and, in a collective body, receive each member into that body, as an indivisible part of the whole."

but if that social contract is broken then it is the right of a man to renegotiate the terms;

IMHO the social contract between the state and I has been broken. As the contract has been annulled by one of the parties not for-filling its part. I feel I am under no obligation to participate in it. ( I do because of my feelings towards my fellow man )

Spinning wheel anyone????


Stephen


Its very hard to maintain respect for a group who roll over and take it. Imagine if others had done the same , we would all be speaking German now and life for some wouldn't be pleasant

[Banditbandit]

Of course I have a point - not everything is black and white, yet you answer black and white and ask me a question that is so too.

Let me answer your question with a question. Were you a motorcycle dealer, how much would you have put away for a rainy day during the halcyon days?

Not that I'm a motorcycle dealer, but I would be happy to bet that (in general) they made SFA surplus to "put away". Were they making heaps (i.e.enough to put away), more would enter the market and under cut their margins to try and take their share of these big fat profits. What happened to motorcycle dealers when the recession hit? How many wealthy dealers do you see (that didn't start wealthy)?

In short, in answer to the question, there are those that can and those that did. But it's frequently not an option, particularly in industries where there is tight competition - or where say private enterprise is expected to compete with a government backed gorilla.

I agree wth pretty much everything you say ... and businesses tend to run on cash flow, not profits. Cash flow keeps the company health and profits is the cream left over ...

In this case the businesses are broadcasters who pay an annual fee to the Governmetn to broadcast on frequencies. It's the payment of those fees that has been put on hold (which means in a snese that it's a loan from the Governmet).

But these are natural business expenses of these companies, and they have not planned how they are going to pay them.

Yes, they can argue that we are in a recession and they haven't got the money because people are not advertising with them.

Have you seen any less ads on TV3 ? Does what we see night after night support the idea that they are not getting the same advertising income? No, it does not!!!

Bad planning is what it is ...

[The Stranger]

Yes, they can argue that we are in a recession and they haven't got the money because people are not advertising with them.

Have you seen any less ads on TV3 ? Does what we see night after night support the idea that they are not getting the same advertising income? No, it does not!!!



So TVNZ and 3 attract the same advertising rates for their adds do they?
Hmm, I would have thought the channel with the greatest number of viewer would attract the higher rates.

[Oscar]

Have a look under Debt .. it shows that our net debt was falling from 2001 to 2008 .. then the Nats came in .. and guess what - debt is rising again ...



And that wouldn't have happened under Labour?
Did you miss the Global Recession?

[The Stranger]

That's fair enough. The black and white view is unfair, but so is having the money and not having the money. You do or you don't. Again, potentially not fair given "industrial" competition.

In answer to your question. As much as I didn't need to spend. If I was serious about keeping MY business afloat (this isn't an oh this is how it should be done, I am after all inexperienced :)) for the future, then I would save as much as I didn't need to spend, initially. After that, I would calculate the potential amount required to keep my business afloat in a worst case scenario, that worst case scenario potentially being 6 months of no "high" profit item sales. IF i have a handle on my comings and goings, I would hopefully have enough information to generate future cost/expenditure prediction models and know where my worst case scenario tipover point was. Or something like that :).

If you're still in business and breaking even, then i'd call that wealthy too :) (in a recession that is)

KB at it's finest - you've already admitted you've never been there, yet you have all the answers. You're not an icecream vendor by chance are you?

[Oscar]

The Government could easily use the state of national emergency to rebuild CHCH, IT DOESN'T NEED TO SELL ASSETS.




Ignoring all your other hyperbole, would you care to explain this rather curious statement?

[Oscar]

Recession my ass, plenty of businesses are making it through the tough times, and not all, not even close, are suckling at the govt tit.



Call me cynical, but I'm guessing you don't have a shred of evidence to back up this statement do you?

[mashman]

KB at it's finest - you've already admitted you've never been there, yet you have all the answers. You're not an icecream vendor by chance are you?

Ahhh, KB at its finest, or is it just the Kiwi way :innocent:, because you haven't done it, you are incapable and know feck all about feck all... and I see you missed the "this isn't an oh this is how it should be done, I am after all inexperienced" bit :rofl:, I can't say i'm surprised :)... heh, nope, would eat it all before the kids did.



Call me cynical, but I'm guessing you don't have a shred of evidence to back up this statement do you?


You're cynical :shifty:. True, but i'm assuming that as the unemployement rate didn't go through the roof, yes it went up, but as it didn't through the roof and that govt doesn't subsidise private enterprise :shifty:, then I pretty much stand by my assertion.

[Brian d marge]

Ignoring all your other hyperbole, would you care to explain this rather curious statement?

Please dont ignore it

We have been through this before ..

but yes I could explain it , Snip

as a seconds worth of google

New Zealand’s parliament voted unanimously last month to pass the Canterbury Earthquake Response and Recovery Act (CERRA), which gives government ministers the power to override almost any law in the country’s statute books. The conservative National Party government pushed through the legislation in a single evening, with the full support of the Maori Party, the opposition Labour Party and the Green Party.


If they want wood , workers or toilets they just have to ask

Stephen

oh and by the way I am half way through some bed time reading for you... you'll like it I'm sure

[Banditbandit]

And that wouldn't have happened under Labour?
Did you miss the Global Recession?

Not satying that at all .. just saying the National is not squeaky clean on this one ... they are just as bad as Labour ...

[Oscar]

Recession my ass, plenty of businesses are making it through the tough times, and not all, not even close, are suckling at the govt tit.




Call me cynical, but I'm guessing you don't have a shred of evidence to back up this statement do you?




You're cynical :shifty:. True, but i'm assuming that as the unemployement rate didn't go through the roof, yes it went up, but as it didn't through the roof and that govt doesn't subsidise private enterprise :shifty:, then I pretty much stand by my assertion.


You stand by your assertion?
You're saying that the Govt. is subsidising private enterprise because unemployment went up, but not as much as you expected?

You are making even less sense than usual.

[Banditbandit]

You stand by your assertion?
You're saying that the Govt. is subsidising private enterprise because unemployment went up, but not as much as you expected?

You are making even less sense than usual.

It was certainly mentioned by John Key on TV news the other night ... they did not want people employed by these large media companies to lose their jobs ...

[Oscar]

Please dont ignore it

We have been through this before ..

but yes I could explain it , Snip

as a seconds worth of google

New Zealand’s parliament voted unanimously last month to pass the Canterbury Earthquake Response and Recovery Act (CERRA), which gives government ministers the power to override almost any law in the country’s statute books. The conservative National Party government pushed through the legislation in a single evening, with the full support of the Maori Party, the opposition Labour Party and the Green Party.


If they want wood , workers or toilets they just have to ask

Stephen

oh and by the way I am half way through some bed time reading for you... you'll like it I'm sure

I am familar with CERRA, it was your comment about the Govt. not having to sell assets.



The Government could easily use the state of national emergency to rebuild CHCH, IT DOESN'T NEED TO SELL ASSETS.




You infer that the state of emergency somehow pays for the rebuilding.
How is this achieved?

[Oscar]

Not satying that at all .. just saying the National is not squeaky clean on this one ... they are just as bad as Labour ...

Bad is a relative word.
Our economic problems would have been much the same whatever party had of been in power.

Ironically one of the factors that cushioned this country from economic shock was our reliance on Aussie Banks.

[Oscar]

It was certainly mentioned by John Key on TV news the other night ... they did not want people employed by these large media companies to lose their jobs ...

Shush.:nono:
I want him to back up his own statement.
If he doesn't do it hisself, he'll never learn...:rolleyes:

[mashman]

You stand by your assertion?
You're saying that the Govt. is subsidising private enterprise because unemployment went up, but not as much as you expected?

You are making even less sense than usual.

I will stand by my assertion, unless you can change my mind on the matter. Entirely up to you :yes:.
I'm saying nothing of the sort, although in the case of the Radio folk, ya know, those people that have hallf of the radio stations in the country (they must have stern competition :shit:), large debt and haven't paid the govt their fees, that that is one way of looking at it.

:rofl:... surely not!

[Swoop]

It also shows we've gone from a $2billion Govt surplus in 2008 (Labour Gvt) to a $9billion Govt deficit in 2010.
I seem to remember Cullen emptying the piggybank prior to his departure. A large spendup (including a big trainset which needs massive repairs) and a few bribes to the electorate who failed to fall for his "gift".
Leaving office after emptying the bank account isn't the way to help an incoming government.

[SPman]

Then why have they just bailed out TV3 and several other broadcasting companies? perhaps this may have something to do with it...
So while this Government butcher public broadcasting, the Telecommunications Minister is giving a foriegn owned media outlet a $43 million extension because of poor revenue? That's just not true, radio advertising is the most lucrative part of the Mediaworks revenue empire, it's the TV that is dragging them down, this money isn't going to prop up radio, its being used to prop up the highly leveraged Ironbridge idiocy that bought Mediaworks from Canwest.

And what was Mediaworks before Canwest bought it? Why it was a company called RadioWorks and who owned RadioWorks - why current Telecommunications Minister Steven Joyce, he owned RadioWorks.
So the question has to be put, why on earth is Telecommunications Minister Steven Joyce cutting juicy deals for a company, part of which he used to own while Public Broadcasting is flushed down the toilet friends in high places, as usual......


Leaving office after emptying the bank account isn't the way to help an incoming government.
National have played this game before, as well - it's not a labour exclusive!

[avgas]

I seem to remember Cullen emptying the piggybank prior to his departure. A large spendup (including a big trainset which needs massive repairs) and a few bribes to the electorate who failed to fall for his "gift".
Leaving office after emptying the bank account isn't the way to help an incoming government.
Yeah how stupid is that.
I think we should treat the govt the way we treat bad partners.
Cut up the credit card if they can't handle their spending.

Should be illegal to go into deficit.

[Quasievil]

National have played this game before, as well - it's not a labour exclusive!

Did they, when exactly and what did they do specifically ,I dont recall this?

[avgas]

Hmmm .. Key reckons that private enterpsie does it better than the Govt sector? Then why have they just bailed out TV3 and several other broadcasting companies?

http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/helping-hand-private-media-company-4052038
Because they were dumb enough to do so.
Would you like to trust their intelligence some more?

[avgas]

Gee my bad, I was under the assumption they were in control of things like national spending, law and order, education, health policy etc.
- national spending on what? benefits? BMW's?
some of the corporates here make the govt spending look like chump change

- law and order? You mean like police? the courts? Funny I remember paying both of them separately. I also remember that many in the know here wiggle their way right past govt here too

- Education. So those kids that couldn't go to school cos there were no teachers. That was all the govt doing right? NCEA vs International based testing.....

- Health Policy.......your kidding right. After all the BS that happened ACC over past few years.

You may note that pretty much all those elements have private sector components too.

[avgas]

Interest Free student loans

your turn
:wait::wait:
Explain to me again who pushed that change.......

Who needs 10,000 when you offer a swiss cheese response.

[onearmedbandit]

- national spending on what? benefits? BMW's?
some of the corporates here make the govt spending look like chump change

What's your point? Either they are or are not in charge of national spending.


- law and order? You mean like police? the courts? Funny I remember paying both of them separately. I also remember that many in the know here wiggle their way right past govt here too

So the police and courts are not government provided services? Whatcorporation runs them please?


- Education. So those kids that couldn't go to school cos there were no teachers. That was all the govt doing right? NCEA vs International based testing.....

Once again, could you please tell me who runs the education department?


- Health Policy.......your kidding right. After all the BS that happened ACC over past few years.

What private sector corporation runs the Health Dept then?


You may note that pretty much all those elements have private sector components too.

Wait, so you're now saying that they are all things under the governments control, just with private sector input?

Oh and I suppose if you were in charge you would've held off on replacing the fleet of BMW's? Nice call, watch the bottom drop right out of them only to then have to pay a lot more to 'trade-up'. Nice forward thinking there...

[SPman]

Did they, when exactly and what did they do specifically ,I dont recall this?
Muldoon 1984 ...something along the lines of "they (Labour) can promise all they like, but there's nothing left to spend"

[The Stranger]

Ahhh, KB at its finest, or is it just the Kiwi way :innocent:, because you haven't done it, you are incapable and know feck all about feck all... and I see you missed the "this isn't an oh this is how it should be done, I am after all inexperienced" bit :rofl:, I can't say i'm surprised :)... heh, nope, would eat it all before the kids did.


I'm going to go out on a limb here again - That was English right?




You're cynical :shifty:. True, but i'm assuming that as the unemployement rate didn't go through the roof, yes it went up, but as it didn't through the roof and that govt doesn't subsidise private enterprise :shifty:, then I pretty much stand by my assertion.

Please tell me you do realise why unemployment hasn't gone through the roof?

[mashman]

I'm going to go out on a limb here again - That was English right?


Yes it was, try to keep up old boy :rolleyes:...

You said



KB at it's finest - you've already admitted you've never been there, yet you have all the answers. You're not an icecream vendor by chance are you?


and I replied



Ahhh, KB at its finest, or is it just the Kiwi way, because you haven't done it, you are incapable and know feck all about feck all... and I see you missed the "this isn't an oh this is how it should be done, I am after all inexperienced" bit , I can't say i'm surprised ... heh, nope, would eat it all before the kids did.


I'll translate for ya, see if you get it this time :msn-wink:



KB at it's finest - you've already admitted you've never been there




Ahhh, KB at its finest, or is it just the Kiwi way, because you haven't done it, you are incapable and know feck all about feck all




yet you have all the answers


So i highlighted that you had missed, or more likely ignored, the answer from my previous post, that was in answer to your question, where you were answering my question with a question (the avoidance method i've come to know and roar with laughter at), and my resultant post which highlighted that I had already explained that I didn't have all of the answers, hence:



and I see you missed the "this isn't an oh this is how it should be done, I am after all inexperienced" bit , I can't say i'm surprised.




You're not an icecream vendor by chance are you?




heh, nope, would eat it all before the kids did.


Hope that helps old boy?



Please tell me you do realise why unemployment hasn't gone through the roof?

Not a clue. Do you?

[The Stranger]

where you were answering my question with a question (the avoidance method i've come to know and roar with laughter at),


Hope that helps old boy?


Yes it helps a lot thank you.
I had doubts that you really were as thick as you make out in your posts.
My questions were probing to clarify this point.
You have now removed any doubts.
You will note that I answered you questions and asked other questions as an adjunct to the answers.

I could go out on a limb here again - but I'm confident I know just what the roaring laughter is.

[/QUOTE]



Not a clue.

Why am I not surprised?
(You will note I have neatly separated the question this time from the answer to make it less confusing for you. Nice huh)


Do you?

Yes thanks.

I'll paraphrase.
OAB says - TV3 could use some help because of a recession. (without which unemployment would rise)
You say - "recession my ass" (contrary to the official definition of a recession and self confessed with no experience may I add)
Oscar - calls bullshit
You say - I know it, I can prove it. There's no recession because unemployment is not high.

Hope that helps old boy?

[The Stranger]

or is it just the Kiwi way :innocent:, because you haven't done it, you are incapable and know feck all about feck all.

I didn't imply you are incapable because you haven't done it.
I implied you were incapable because of glaringly obvious deficiencies in your knowledge.
I sought to clarify if these gaps in your knowledge were plugged with experience.


If you like I can paraphrase that one for you too.

[mashman]

Yes it helps a lot thank you.
I had doubts that you really were as thick as you make out in your posts.
My questions were probing to clarify this point.
You have now removed any doubts.


You're Welcome.
We have done this dance before... you should have gone with your original findings and saved yourself the trouble. But thanks for the second chance, it means a lot.
They were probing questions. Damn i'm thicker than I thought... but I guess thats par for the course.
Are you sure? I mean, you're not going to try this a third time?



You will note that I answered you questions and asked other questions as an adjunct to the answers.


Some call it avoidance. But I should have known better... given that you don't see things in black and red, or is that red and black... meh.



I could go out on a limb here again - but I'm confident I know just what the roaring laughter is.


And now you can read minds... no doubt I'd have to have a mind to read first :), but in this case I can pretty much guarantee that your confidence is misplaced.



Why am I not surprised?
(You will note I have neatly separated the question this time from the answer to make it less confusing for you. Nice huh)


You're probably not surprised, because your opener for this exchange had already confirmed your suspicions.
(Unnecessary, but thanks, your English is fine)



Yes thanks.

I'll paraphrase.
OAB says - TV3 could use some help because of a recession. (without which unemployment would rise)
You say - "recession my ass" (contrary to the official definition of a recession and self confessed with no experience may I add)
Oscar - calls bullshit
You say - I know it, I can prove it. There's no recession because unemployment is not high.


So your paraphrasing is based on:



yeah, if in doubt, blame the recession ... i'm not saying it doesn't have knock on effects, but i'm in a recession and i don;t get any relief on my bills... fortunately I saved up for a rainy day... perhaps business should try that rainy day thing instead of syphoning the profits off for bonuses and exorbitant salaries? Recession my ass, plenty of businesses are making it through the tough times, and not all, not even close, are suckling at the govt tit.




True, but i'm assuming that as the unemployement rate didn't go through the roof, yes it went up, but as it didn't through the roof and that govt doesn't subsidise private enterprise , then I pretty much stand by my assertion.


So, "I know it", where did i say that? "I can prove it", where did i say that? "There's no recession", where did i say that? Paparaphrasing you say... Looking at what I had previously written, i'd say your paraphrasing is a bit of a stretch, and when i say a bit, i mean a bit as in, I hope you wouldn't enter a court room with evidence like that, especially if someones life was on the line.



Hope that helps old boy?


It's certainly confirmed a few things :). Thanks.



I didn't imply you are incapable because you haven't done it.
I implied you were incapable because of glaringly obvious deficiencies in your knowledge.
I sought to clarify if these gaps in your knowledge were plugged with experience.


Paraphrasing...

:killingme... you need to know what you're doing before you can actually do it? Then I'm not surprised business is what it is today if that's the mantra of the business world. They have nothing to learn because they know it all!

In which case that takes us full circle to a small matter of $14 billion of Crown debt and $43 million of unpaid licence fees... v's my debt, my mortgage... yes as hard as it may seem to believe, I have paid for everything that I own (apart from the house), can the Crown or TV3 say the same? After all, one of them has their fingers in EVERY pie in the country, and the other is 50% of an industry... They have by far larger revenue streams than I could ever hope for, yet they are hugely in debt. Perhaps you should have a chat with them, ya know, give them the benefit of your obvious experience and teach them how to run a successful business. Much better you doing it than I, wouldn't you say. Doh, sorry, forgot there's a recession on :blink:, perhaps if they had have saved for a rainy day.................



I implied you were incapable because of glaringly obvious deficiencies in your knowledge.
I sought to clarify if these gaps in your knowledge were plugged with experience.


If they were glaringly obvious, why seek such an indepth clarification?



If you like I can paraphrase that one for you too.


Please do, I can hardly contain myself. Although I'm confident that that is beneath you.

[The Stranger]

You're Welcome.
We have done this dance before... you should have gone with your original findings and saved yourself the trouble. But thanks for the second chance, it means a lot.
They were probing questions. Damn i'm thicker than I thought... but I guess thats par for the course.
Are you sure? I mean, you're not going to try this a third time?



Some call it avoidance. But I should have known better... given that you don't see things in black and red, or is that red and black... meh.



And now you can read minds... no doubt I'd have to have a mind to read first :), but in this case I can pretty much guarantee that your confidence is misplaced.



You're probably not surprised, because your opener for this exchange had already confirmed your suspicions.
(Unnecessary, but thanks, your English is fine)



So your paraphrasing is based on:





So, "I know it", where did i say that? "I can prove it", where did i say that? "There's no recession", where did i say that? Paparaphrasing you say... Looking at what I had previously written, i'd say your paraphrasing is a bit of a stretch, and when i say a bit, i mean a bit as in, I hope you wouldn't enter a court room with evidence like that, especially if someones life was on the line.



It's certainly confirmed a few things :). Thanks.



Paraphrasing...

:killingme... you need to know what you're doing before you can actually do it? Then I'm not surprised business is what it is today if that's the mantra of the business world. They have nothing to learn because they know it all!

In which case that takes us full circle to a small matter of $14 billion of Crown debt and $43 million of unpaid licence fees... v's my debt, my mortgage... yes as hard as it may seem to believe, I have paid for everything that I own (apart from the house), can the Crown or TV3 say the same? After all, one of them has their fingers in EVERY pie in the country, and the other is 50% of an industry... They have by far larger revenue streams than I could ever hope for, yet they are hugely in debt. Perhaps you should have a chat with them, ya know, give them the benefit of your obvious experience and teach them how to run a successful business. Much better you doing it than I, wouldn't you say. Doh, sorry, forgot there's a recession on :blink:, perhaps if they had have saved for a rainy day.................



If they were glaringly obvious, why seek such an indepth clarification?



Please do, I can hardly contain myself. Although I'm confident that that is beneath you.

Well there it is. Living proof of why I shouldn't argue with an idiot.

[avgas]

Not a clue. Do you?
I was told unemployment figures don't cover the following:
- Sick
- Locked up
- Permanent Visitors (Overstayers, Refugees....etc)

I figure there is a few % there.......

[avgas]

What's your point? Either they are or are not in charge of national spending.

So the police and courts are not government provided services? Whatcorporation runs them please?

Once again, could you please tell me who runs the education department?

What private sector corporation runs the Health Dept then?

Wait, so you're now saying that they are all things under the governments control, just with private sector input?
My point that national spending is not where decision are usually made, and if they are.....its because someone outside the govt had some leverage on the issue.

Cops - well you will have to ask them who draws up their quota's. However I will let you have that one, as in that scenario private/public doesn't matter.......its always "the police vs ______" never the people....

Govt clearly doesn't run school - otherwise kids would have been taught when the teachers were on strike. Or heaven forbid the strike would not have happened.

BMW thing.....didn't get ya.......All I was saying was it was a pretty important decision for them, they even argued over it for weeks. For the rest of us......erm not so much.

But yep you got my point. But I would not be so bold to say ALL......... just most.
But its not all bad - I mean we did get Benmore and a few other things out of it. But i can't help but feel we have a bit to many Politicians for the few decisions they do make.