National slashing bureaucratic jobs

[superman]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4755219/Nats-signal-more-ministry-mergers-after-65-job-losses

Saving us up to $10million... or so they say.

Good shit though, exactly what I was hoping the government was going to do, now I want to see much more :cool:

[Str8 Jacket]

Riiight, so you want to see more from less? The more jobs that are lost the more poor old Joe Bloggs has to do. Guess what, it won't make him work any faster, quite the opposite in fact....

[admenk]

Yeah, sounds great in theory, streamlining public service waste etc.

However, that's 65 people who now need to find a new job and may be the main wage earner for their family. I'm not saying that jobs should be kept for the sake of it, but in my experience, Government "streamlining" often just cuts jobs that aren't in the public eye, not necesserily one's that don't need doing. It may well be that the remaining staff now just have an increased workload, while the Government boasts about the savings they've made coming up to an election. But then again, I am a cynic where Governments are concerned !

[Ocean1]

However, that's 65 people who now need to find a new job

Maybe it'll be one that actually generates revenue.

[Whynot]

Maybe it'll be one that actually generates revenue.

I didn't think there were any of them anymore ....

[mashman]

Cheaper on the dole than paying people a salary... however you cut it, that's what it is. It also costs every worker in NZ approx $4 per week to keep those people in work. That's a huge saving right there... 10,000,000 between 65 people = $153846.15... they get paid damn well too.

[Deano]

they get paid damn well too.

Really ? As well or better than their counterparts in the private sector ?

There are a very broad range of jobs being cut - pretty sweeping statement to suggest they all get paid well. Or do you know something I don't ?

[mashman]

Really ? As well or better than their counterparts in the private sector ?

There are a very broad range of jobs being cut - pretty sweeping statement to suggest they all get paid well. Or do you know something I don't ?

heh, not at all. Just doing some average numbers... same way the govt do :)

[NinjaNanna]

penny pinching, to make real savings non essential services need to go

[JMemonic]

The problem is it will be front line staff that are cut, no biggie you might think, but you need to also think about the roles these folks play. MFish protect (as much as you would think its an impossible task) our fisheries this is a muti billion dollar per year industry, over the years many of the vessels plying trade along our coasts have become foreign owned, some of these have been caught by chance dumping fish over the side, Link, (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/545629) when there has been no observer present, these are exactly the staff we need but will loose.

The other think is MAF, now these folks are responsible for our bio security at the border, front line staff have been cut and now we have varroa mite decimating out bee populations again a multi million dollar per year business, (this has other ramifications for our nation), we have canker hitting our kiwi fruit, while it does not damage the fruit countries we export to could easily deny access for that product on the basis it may carry the bacteria.

There are other services that have seen front line cuts, that have ongoing ramifications for our nation, if things are not managed carefully the decline towards NZ being a poor pacific nation rife with corruption and possibly just a larger version of the Fijian regime will happen, then I wonder how many folks who are sitting out there going hey this is a good idea will be refuges trying to get to Australia. Hell its nearly possible for foreign criminals to purchase citizenship now.

Remember these two agencies were many years ago one, the reasons they were separated are still valid, how about re-tasking the back room staff to front line and instead of so many team leaders (ha there's a redundancy waiting) doing so little the staff actually report to managers.

[wickle]

It will never happen but wonder how much would be saved if number of politicans was reduced:ar15: and politicans could only claim airfares if a current member of parilment

[Str8 Jacket]

It will never happen but wonder how much would be saved if number of politicans was reduced:ar15: and politicans could only claim airfares if a current member of parilment

I love that song!!

[Deano]

MFish protect (as much as you would think its an impossible task) our fisheries

The other think is MAF, now these folks are responsible for our bio security

I understand that MAF, MFish and NZFSA are all to merge. Communications departments within each will be disestablished and one unit formed.

I'm all for cutting the fat, just make sure that no muscle is cut out with it.

[Swoop]

Plenty of fat appeared over the 9 years of liarbour.:rolleyes:
Get rid of the bullshit paperwork and then you do not need a person to shuffle said paperwork.

Health service. 3 paper pushers per hospital bed?

[Deano]

Health service. 3 paper pushers per hospital bed?

There's more administrators than clinical staff isn't there ?

[JMemonic]

I understand that MAF, MFish and NZFSA are all to merge. Communications departments within each will be disestablished and one unit formed.

I'm all for cutting the fat, just make sure that no muscle is cut out with it.

I agree, unfortunately muscle is often cut leaving fat for some reason, there is certainly some overlap and making say one communications department, intelligence department and information sharing between certain agencies would be a wise move but merging agencies with what would appear to be just on the basis they have the same or similar initials seems well silly.

NZFSA and MAF were merged a while ago and that in some respects is sensible, there is some overlap but from personal experience it can be difficult to contact the right people in the correct agency now when one sees activity that may be unlawful in regard to fisheries this will I suspect make it more so.

Mind you at the end of the day these politicians do not listen to what the people have to say, just their advisers and 'yes' men.

[wickle]

Originally Posted by Swoop
Health service. 3 paper pushers per hospital bed?
There's more administrators than clinical staff isn't there

an every day we see them in refuelling vechiles like Subaru's , med size Toyota's etc when a far smaller vechile ie Holden Barina;s would be quite adquete for they purpose

[rainman]

Maybe it'll be one that actually generates revenue.

Money isn't everything.

[Number One]

Yeah, sounds great in theory, streamlining public service waste etc.

However, that's 65 people who now need to find a new job and may be the main wage earner for their family. I'm not saying that jobs should be kept for the sake of it, but in my experience, Government "streamlining" often just cuts jobs that aren't in the public eye, not necesserily one's that don't need doing. It may well be that the remaining staff now just have an increased workload, while the Government boasts about the savings they've made coming up to an election. But then again, I am a cynic where Governments are concerned !

AMEN

I was one of those 'streamlined' out a job...saved fuck all for them to do it and guess what? Less than a year later they still haven't replaced me and are now going to replace me with three people...how's that for savings...NOT! Saddest thing was they enquired whether I'd be interested in returning...LMAO...thanks but no thanks was my response!

BTW - I would never work in the public sector again. Crap employer if you ask me...more with less my arse. That's not what happens at all - the good people leave and move on and the useless fuckers that are actually 'really' dragging the chain (and can't get jobs anywhere else) hang in for grim death.

Good luck NZ...probably a large portion of your public sector is wondering why the fuck they bother....for a lot of them they aren't doing it for the money!

[mashman]

Money isn't everything.

it is when it's not yours :yes:

[Ocean1]

There's more administrators than clinical staff isn't there ?

Depends how you define administrators. If you mean managers then no, nowhere near as top heavy as a typical private sector health entity. If you mean non-clinical to clinical staff then yes. It takes about 40min of data entry to process a simple ED presentation, and they're not allowed to turn away snotty nosed kids.


Money isn't everything.

Then they won't miss it will they?


BTW - I would never work in the public sector again. Crap employer if you ask me...

I agree. The disease is systemic, you need to kill the host and then re-invent "public service" systems.

[Hitcher]

Maybe it'll be one that actually generates revenue.

MAFFF isn't in the business of generating revenue, well not "proper" revenue. I don't count fees charged for permits or fines charged for non-compliance as "proper" revenue.

National has a spiritual desire to create super ministries. But I can't fathom why they don't go after Ministries of No Real Value first. Start with Youth Development and Women's Affairs.

[Ocean1]

MAFFF isn't in the business of generating revenue, well not "proper" revenue. I don't count fees charged for permits or fines charged for non-compliance as "proper" revenue.

In which case it has no right to be in business at all. It's only redeeming feature might be its ability to support and regulate those that are. At minimal cost. Unfortunately the prevailing policy for any largely regulatory entity seems to be to charge the “clients” whatever the “service” costs to supply.

To this day I choke every time IRD refers to me as a client.


National has a spiritual desire to create super ministries. But I can't fathom why they don't go after Ministries of No Real Value first. Start with Youth Development and Women's Affairs.

I doubt it, I’d say their desire lies more in minimising overheads. I've no doubt at all that they suffer from the classic political lack of practical implementation, though. As for the tiddlers? maybe they're picking the low hanging stuff first, I hold hopes for any second term.

[Fatt Max]

There's more administrators than clinical staff isn't there ?

And thats the nail hit fucking hard on the head

[Motig]

Isn't this the bit where they cut staff then hire consultants at higher cost to do the same work >

[SPman]

Wasn't it National who split MAF up into seperate entities in the first place.......:rolleyes:

[Hitcher]

Wasn't it National who split MAF up into seperate entities in the first place

Carving off Fisheries in 1995? Yes.

Carving off food safety in 2002? No.

My heart goes out to all of the MAF communications team who have, unsuccesfully, for the past 16 years tried to tell people that MAF isn't the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries.

[shrub]

AMEN

I was one of those 'streamlined' out a job...saved fuck all for them to do it and guess what? Less than a year later they still haven't replaced me and are now going to replace me with three people...how's that for savings...NOT! Saddest thing was they enquired whether I'd be interested in returning...LMAO...thanks but no thanks was my response!

BTW - I would never work in the public sector again. Crap employer if you ask me...more with less my arse. That's not what happens at all - the good people leave and move on and the useless fuckers that are actually 'really' dragging the chain (and can't get jobs anywhere else) hang in for grim death.

Good luck NZ...probably a large portion of your public sector is wondering why the fuck they bother....for a lot of them they aren't doing it for the money!

that's pretty much bang on the money.

Our beloved masters have come up with this clever way to save money that is politicaly attractive to their core voters - get rid of those lazy, overpaid, useless bureaucrats that Labour hired in their thousands. They contribute nothing and spend all day generating red tape - cue to rerun of Glidetime.

Only problem is most of them have really useful and important jobs. We live in a complex and very well run society, and that takes a lot of people to do. When people are sacked and budgets are slashed the work still needs to be done, only now there are fewer people and less money. Which means ultimately service quality degrades. It's slow and easy to hide, and that suits our masters very well.

And the really skilled and talented people look at what's happening and the first thing they do is hit seek.co.nz - or com.au, and pack their bags and go, which leaves the people who can't readily get a job elsewhere running our country.

Then in 10 years time we all moan because our crime rate is rising, hospital waiting lists are growing, schools are pumping out people who can't read and our primary industries are now plagued with nasty bugs and shit. And nobody has the guts to stop and say we need to rebuild our stripped country which will cost money.

[imdying]

BTW - I would never work in the public sector again. Crap employer if you ask me...more with less my arse. That's not what happens at all - the good people leave and move on and the useless fuckers that are actually 'really' dragging the chain (and can't get jobs anywhere else) hang in for grim death.I don't disagree with your comments, but try not to take it too personally, IME it's not, it's just the messed up way they're forced to operate.

[Ocean1]

that's pretty much bang on the money.

So the public services all provide good value for money?


Don't bother, since it's my money I'll decide.

[shrub]

So the public services all provide good value for money?


Don't bother, since it's my money I'll decide.

You might be surprised how efficient and well run most of them are - the "all government departments are inefficient and poorly run" is a myth that has it's roots in a world long gone. Kind of like "all harley Davidson motorcycles are unreliable and vibrate" used to be true in the 70s but not any more. I work almost entirely with private companies and almost all of them have varying levels of internal inefficiencies, even lean and dynamic companies. Where these inefficiencies are "managed" by downsizing (a nice way of sacking people) the company without exception ends up worse off than before because they don't lose the dross - they lose the good people who can easily get a job elsewhere, service quality drops (and that is easily measured these days), customer satisfaction diminshes which results in customer migration.

If I was King of this fine land and had all power and authority, I wouldn't use the slasher approach, but would work closely with the most talented people in various government departments to lift delivery standards and expand the range and depth of services delivered. It's a processs that works well.

[Toaster]

Maybe it'll be one that actually generates revenue.

The police have a recruitment drive on....

[Toaster]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4755219/Nats-signal-more-ministry-mergers-after-65-job-losses

Saving us up to $10million... or so they say.

Good shit though, exactly what I was hoping the government was going to do, now I want to see much more :cool:


Cutbacks to save money huh? Okay - lets see our MPs in Government all take a pay freeze for the next 5 years and no new limos.

Who agrees?

[superman]

Cutbacks to save money huh? Okay - lets see our MPs in Government all take a pay freeze for the next 5 years and no new limos.

Who agrees?

Our government is way too big for our population size. Redundancies are in order.

[wingnutt]

Yeah, sounds great in theory, streamlining public service waste etc.

However, that's 65 people who now need to find a new job and may be the main wage earner for their family. I'm not saying that jobs should be kept for the sake of it, but in my experience, Government "streamlining" often just cuts jobs that aren't in the public eye, not necesserily one's that don't need doing. It may well be that the remaining staff now just have an increased workload, while the Government boasts about the savings they've made coming up to an election. But then again, I am a cynic where Governments are concerned !

yeh they also push people sideways and call the job a new name, so on paper, they have cancelled one job, but say nothing about the new one created.

yeh, I'm afraid I'm way past trusting what politicians say.

[avgas]

Why cut the wings off a duck when its the head that dictates its stupidity?

[Ocean1]

If I was King of this fine land and had all power and authority, I wouldn't use the slasher approach, but would work closely with the most talented people in various government departments to lift delivery standards and expand the range and depth of services delivered. It's a processs that works well.

Surprised? I work with a few myself, some produce valuable work. Most produce nothing of any commercial value. Don’t like the word commercial as applied to the public service? Fine, if they can’t point to quantifiable value they can do their work for free.

All large organisations lose efficiency over time. The reason the slasher approach doesn't do what people want in fixing that is exactly as you suggest, the cream floats off to better pastures and the dross digs in for grim death.

So rather than pretend that you can make silk purses out of the lazy and the stupid why don't we change employment law so that employees can get paid what they're worth. That way you get to keep the valuable ones and the dross doesn't bleed the organisation white. Anathema to the unions, true but then they never pretended to know how to make things work, just how to equitably fuck up everyone.

[shrub]

Surprised? I work with a few myself, some produce valuable work. Most produce nothing of any commercial value. Don’t like the word commercial as applied to the public service? Fine, if they can’t point to quantifiable value they can do their work for free.

All large organisations lose efficiency over time. The reason the slasher approach doesn't do what people want in fixing that is exactly as you suggest, the cream floats off to better pastures and the dross digs in for grim death.

So rather than pretend that you can make silk purses out of the lazy and the stupid why don't we change employment law so that employees can get paid what they're worth. That way you get to keep the valuable ones and the dross doesn't bleed the organisation white. Anathema to the unions, true but then they never pretended to know how to make things work, just how to equitably fuck up everyone.

You're not an accountant are you? To quote the immortal Oscar Wilde, people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. How do you value someone's work? By what it will sell for? In that case Justin Bieber has more value as a musician than (say) Chris Knox.

The value of much work cannot be easily quantfied, especially the kind of work that goes into maintaining a civil society - is a police officer worth more than a teacher? And should we reward the police officer with a high arrest rate more than the police officer who prevents young people from going off the rails? Should the teacher in a high decile school who produces lots of university graduates be paid more than the teacher in a low decile school who gets kids reading?

I agree that the trade union movement of the 70s was ultimately destructive, but what has replaced it has been equally destructive. I just hope that we will find a balance one day.

[Number One]

So rather than pretend that you can make silk purses out of the lazy and the stupid why don't we change employment law so that employees can get paid what they're worth. That way you get to keep the valuable ones and the dross doesn't bleed the organisation white.

LOL oooo if only. The problem is that in some PS organisations it's the DROSS at the top, lining the way for all their drossy mates to join them up there.

The number of times I have seen poor performers (managers) that should have been exited instead be given promotions and payrises to 'shift their negative impact' around organisations makes me sick...apparently there is a code of conduct for the PS that protects against this - whatever!

I once worked for a CE who recruited one of his own Dep Secs, outside of the process. It turned out that this person was a regular at his home dinner table...wives were thick as theives and the kids all close too. Everyone knew it was dodgy and it completely undermined the official recruitment process. I was tempted to let some of the 'doomed to be unsuccessful' hopefuls in on it so they could request an investigation into the appointment that was made...but I needed that job at the time.

[saxet]

LOL oooo if only. The problem is that in some PS organisations it's the DROSS at the top, lining the way for all their drossy mates to join them up there.

The number of times I have seen poor performers (managers) that should have been exited instead be given promotions and payrises to 'shift their negative impact' around organisations makes me sick...apparently there is a code of conduct for the PS that protects against this - whatever!

I once worked for a CE who recruited one of his own Dep Secs, outside of the process. It turned out that this person was a regular at his home dinner table...wives were thick as theives and the kids all close too. Everyone knew it was dodgy and it completely undermined the official recruitment process. I was tempted to let some of the 'doomed to be unsuccessful' hopefuls in on it so they could request an investigation into the appointment that was made...but I needed that job at the time.

In my experience this occurs regularly in private companies also.

[Number One]

In my experience this occurs regularly in private companies also.

Indeed it does (especially in IT) however it's supposed to NOT happen in the PS

[Ocean1]

You're not an accountant are you? To quote the immortal Oscar Wilde, people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

No. But you're close with your reference, however dear old uncle Oscar was a wastrel and a spendthrift, hardly one to point any fiscal digits.


How do you value someone's work? By what it will sell for? In that case Justin Bieber has more value as a musician than (say) Chris Knox.

The value of much work cannot be easily quantified....

It can if you don’t misrepresent what you’re selling. Justin isn’t selling his musical talents, is he? So comparing him to someone who is selling his musical talents is meaningless innit? Any work can be easily valued by asking the market what it’s worth.

Stab in the dark, here. What’s money? Define it for me. Where does it come from? It’s worth fuck all physically nowadays, it simply represents something. What?

[Ocean1]

LOL oooo if only. The problem is that in some PS organisations it's the DROSS at the top,

I didn't suggest otherwise. In fact dross is literally a waste by-product of steel production that floats on top of the crucible.

If you want to understand the mechanism behind that google “Dunning – Kruger”.

[shrub]

No. But you're close with your reference, however dear old uncle Oscar was a wastrel and a spendthrift, hardly one to point any fiscal digits.


Yes, he didn't make a lot of money, own expansive properties or run a cotton mill. If he had done any of those the world would probably be no better off and few people would even know his name; instead he gave the world some of the finest writing of his era and today people are still reading his work with delight and becoming the richer for it.


It can if you don’t misrepresent what you’re selling. Justin isn’t selling his musical talents, is he? So comparing him to someone who is selling his musical talents is meaningless innit? Any work can be easily valued by asking the market what it’s worth.

he's not selling anything. The marketers (the men and women who control the market) have made the market desire what Justin has to offer because the people who pay them told them to. And that's where the whole free market theory collapses, there is no free market. The market is manipulated and controlled by some incredibly clever and very well resourced men and women who tell the market what it wants, and how much it is willing to pay for something. Ever wondered why Harley Davidsons are more expensive and more sought after than better bikes? The marketers have convinced the market to pay more money for them than an M109R



Stab in the dark, here. What’s money? Define it for me. Where does it come from? It’s worth fuck all physically nowadays, it simply represents something. What?

Buggered if I know. It's a construct that has little real meaning these days.

[Ocean1]

Yes, he didn't make a lot of money, own expansive properties or run a cotton mill. If he had done any of those the world would probably be no better off and few people would even know his name; instead he gave the world some of the finest writing of his era and today people are still reading his work with delight and becoming the richer for it.
In fact he made quite a bit, the value of the Bard was recognise then as it is now. Sometimes nowadays you don’t even have to die to break even.



he's not selling anything. The marketers (the men and women who control the market) have made the market desire what Justin has to offer because the people who pay them told them to. And that's where the whole free market theory collapses, there is no free market. The market is manipulated and controlled by some incredibly clever and very well resourced men and women who tell the market what it wants, and how much it is willing to pay for something. Ever wondered why Harley Davidsons are more expensive and more sought after than better bikes? The marketers have convinced the market to pay more money for them than an M109R

Thought so, a conspiracy theorist. News: there’s been shysters longer than recorded history. They don’t generate revenue, they just shuffle it around.




Buggered if I know. It's a construct that has little real meaning these days.

It’s a unit of value. Simple as that.

[shrub]

Thought so, a conspiracy theorist. News: there’s been shysters longer than recorded history. They don’t generate revenue, they just shuffle it around.

No, I'm a marketer. It's us shysters who have made one thing valuable and sought after whereas something of comparable intrinsic value is seen as being worth less and less desirable. I love watching the work of my more clever colleagues make the populace bark and drool to the chiming of their bells.


It’s a unit of value. Simple as that

probably. But who's value? Who decides that item A is worth 100 units of value wheras item B (which is identical beyond the packaging) is worth 200 units of value? The marketers?

And then you have our dear leader's former colleagues who decide that by transferring 100,000,000 units of value from account A to account B those units are suddenly worth twice as much value as they used to be, so can withdraw 200,000,000 million units of value without actually having made anything, improved anything or even amused anyone. So is it the money market traders who decide how much money is worth? How come my Kiwi dollar buys more Harley Davidsons or Triumphs now than it did 10 years ago when the Harley Davidsons and Triumphs weren't as good?

Has the market decided that?

[mashman]

It’s a unit of value. Simple as that.

It's also the most powerful weapon on the planet. Sorry for butting in :), as you were...

[Ocean1]

No, I'm a marketer. It's us shysters who have made one thing valuable and sought after whereas something of comparable intrinsic value is seen as being worth less and less desirable.

I'll concede half a point. Money is a unit of percieved value.

And again, shysters don't generate value, they just distort perceptions. My perceptions are not amenable to normal market manipulation, I don't hear advertising, if I want data for procurement purposes I find clean sources.

[shrub]

I don't hear advertising, if I want data for procurement purposes I find clean sources.

Actually you do - unless you don't read anything, watch anything or listen to anything; you simply aren't aware of how advertising affects you. A clever marketer shifts perceptions and attitudes and does it subtly.

[Swoop]

I once worked for a CE who recruited one of his own Dep Secs, outside of the process. It turned out that this person was a regular at his home dinner table.
A perfect time for this demotivator...

[Toaster]

Our government is way too big for our population size. Redundancies are in order.

Agreed, cut backs from the front there our leaders. Be an example to what they expect of the rest of us and take cutbacks themselves.

[aprilia_RS250]

For all the people losing jobs as public servants sorry that's the way life works. If you're not needed, or are seen as excess, or there is a cheaper variant - goodbye. Think how good you had it during helengrad era where hard working joe was paying the 39c for every top dollar earned so you and 10 others could could do one man's job.

[Ocean1]

Actually you do - unless you don't read anything, watch anything or listen to anything; you simply aren't aware of how advertising affects you. A clever marketer shifts perceptions and attitudes and does it subtly.

Not aware? How arrogant.

Advertise at me all you like, those clever fuckers aren't as clever as you might believe. I'm an engineer, I know how stuff should be made and I know how much it costs to make. When I see prices associated with products that are obviously blown out of proportion by advertising budgets, (or anything else) I make a note not to buy that product.

There's a bunch of manufacturers on my shit list. Some of them are there because they once sold me crap, some are there because their advertising or their corperate ethics are offensive. I wonder if any of them are your clients.

[firefighter]

Why punish workers to save money?

How about skimping on the lavish prison goodies like sky and heating. Hell, turn them into bombing ranges that'll save pletny.

Weetbix for breakfast, toast for dinner. Enjoy.

Next in line is Cletus and Sefu. Sorry, having a kid every 1.5 years is no-longer going to ensure a payrise for you.

THEN we start firing those who have to work for their bread. Who probably got degrees to earn the right to start an internship do their jobs.

[Banditbandit]

Not aware? How arrogant.

Advertise at me all you like, those clever fuckers aren't as clever as you might believe. I'm an engineer, I know how stuff should be made and I know how much it costs to make. When I see prices associated with products that are obviously blown out of proportion by advertising budgets, (or anything else) I make a note not to buy that product.

There's a bunch of manufacturers on my shit list. Some of them are there because they once sold me crap, some are there because their advertising or their corperate ethics are offensive. I wonder if any of them are your clients.

So, you are affected by advertising. You've just given us examples of how you modified your behaviour (NOT bought certain products) because of either the price or the advertising.

I'll bet there are plenty of examples which modifed your behaviour in the opposite direction - they'll just be harder to extract from you because you are not so aware of them.

[Banditbandit]

Why punish workers to save money?

I agree mostly ... cut MPs' salaries for a start.


How about skimping on the lavish prison goodies like sky and heating. Hell, turn them into bombing ranges that'll save plenty.

THat's about people management - take away Sky or heating and you'll have prison riots ... Sky and heating's the cheaper option.


Weetbix for breakfast, toast for dinner. Enjoy.

That's pretty close ... weetbix for breakfast, sandwiches for lunch - hot meal for dinner. We did sign the agreement on prisoners and human rights (yes, I know - but soem things are basic ... such as hot food).


Next in line is Cletus and Sefu. Sorry, having a kid every 1.5 years is no-longer going to ensure a payrise for you.

Don't disagree. But how to you take action to protect the children ? Cutting incomes has a direct impact on the children, who are the inocent parties. Part of me is in favour of compulsory sterilization after the third child - part of me is against that idea.


THEN we start firing those who have to work for their bread. Who probably got degrees to earn the right to start an internship do their jobs.

Hmm .. many of the public servants holding degrees are parasites .. middle class parasites who think they have a cushy job - I used to be married to one ... they are doing irrelevent jobs and should go ...

[Ocean1]

I'll bet there are plenty of examples which modifed your behaviour in the opposite direction - they'll just be harder to extract from you because you are not so aware of them.

I doubt it, the only likely effect on me of advertising blatant or "subtle" is complete disregard of the message other than another wee tick in the “don’t buy this shit” column. I’m aware that this isn’t the desired result, but then I’m not their usual target consumer demographic.

It never ceases to surprise me how much credence people put in assurances of quality from anyone advantaged by their acceptance.

[oneofsix]

I doubt it, the only likely effect on me of advertising blatant or "subtle" is complete disregard of the message other than another wee tick in the “don’t buy this shit” column. I’m aware that this isn’t the desired result, but then I’m not their usual target consumer demographic.

It never ceases to surprise me how much credence people put in assurances of quality from anyone advantaged by their acceptance.

Guess you never wonder why older fuckers aren't the targeted demographic of most advertisers. Too many cynical old bastards that are wise to their games. :clap:
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt but you wont catch me out again.:cool:

[SPman]

..... I was tempted to let some of the 'doomed to be unsuccessful' hopefuls in on it so they could request an investigation into the appointment that was made...but I needed that job at the time.And therein lies a problem - most people need their jobs to just survive and simply can't afford to rock the boat.......the power of money and the lack therof....... Probably no more than 5-10% of managers in any organisation, PS or private, have any clue or skill at managing people to get the best out of them in a win -win situation. The rest are just fucking disaster zones, spreading inefficiency, unhappiness, dispirited work forces and general strife in their organisations, which usually stagger along, despite management, yet management receive any kudos earned and staff get a large raspberry.....and I include parliament in this.
Proper management is about handling people, not money...in fact...accounts should be left to accountants who advise managers...accountants have no job at all, being managers....

[Ocean1]

Proper management is about handling people, not money...in fact...accounts should be left to accountants who advise managers...accountants have no job at all, being managers....

Accountant managers are SO 1990's.

Your fashionable board now considers HR managers to be the bees nuts. God save us from fucking experts, make employment law work properly and do without the bastards.

[Number One]

Proper management is about handling people, not
money...

Leadership benchstrength in NZ is shite...lots of opportunities for those that 'get it'...unfortunately though not enough organisations yet really value the behaviours and skills required of good 'LEADER' and so they don't target those for recognition and are not yet truely effective at developing these either...also remember the behaviour that gets rewarded gets repeated....guess what's being rewarded (and what isn't) in many of our organisations currently (private and PS)

[mashman]

And therein lies a problem - most people need their jobs to just survive and simply can't afford to rock the boat

Very true and having the wrong people in the wrong jobs for the wrong reasons isn't really a breeding ground for continuity, stability, excellence etc... From personal experience, I find that most of the companies I have worked for spent 99% of their time and resource generating revenue and 1% keeping an eye on business process and staffing. The real fun starts when they implement new software :yes:...

[shrub]

Not aware? How arrogant.

Advertise at me all you like, those clever fuckers aren't as clever as you might believe. I'm an engineer, I know how stuff should be made and I know how much it costs to make. When I see prices associated with products that are obviously blown out of proportion by advertising budgets, (or anything else) I make a note not to buy that product.

There's a bunch of manufacturers on my shit list. Some of them are there because they once sold me crap, some are there because their advertising or their corperate ethics are offensive. I wonder if any of them are your clients.

No mate, I'm not arrogant, I simply know a bit about marketing and how it works. Marketing is not simply advertising just as engineering isn't just using a welder and a hacksaw. You are being marketed to all the time and modern marketers often barely use advertising. Have you seen a logo for the ASB today? Do you know what colour it is? Could you recognise that colour again? Did you know that colour triggers subconcious feelings in people who see it qne that the ASB have been marketing to both of us?

And is John Key an astute businessman who was raised in a state house by a solo mum, and does he have the 'common touch' yet understands how the average Kiwi business owner works and his concerns? Are the National party a business friendly party with a better understanding of what businesses need to succeed than Labour? The odds are good you answered yes, and that's because National's agency worked very hard to create those perceptions (which are not exactly false, but certainly exaggerated_. They didn't simply use ads, they used a hundred other mechanisms to create these perceptions in the minds of their publics.

Have you noticed that Bob Parker now appears with the sleeves of his famous yellow parka rolled up? Did you know that was done intentionally, and he was advised to do that by his publicists, and people know think he's rolling up his sleeves and getting stuck in.

Sorry mate, marketing is a highly developed and very, very sophisticated game and marketers get paid a lot of money because they can change consumer behaviour. If you are not influenced by marketers you are probably the only man in the world who has that luxury. I certainly am, and I know most of their tricks.

[Ocean1]

Twins ffs...

[Ocean1]

The odds are good you answered yes
I did not. I’m not exaggerating, dude, I can hear / see manipulative behaviour fucking miles away, I ignore it. I learned that, like a lot of good lads from ignoring my mother, and compared to her you lot are rank amateurs.


Sorry mate, marketing is a highly developed and very, very sophisticated game and marketers get paid a lot of money because they can change consumer behaviour. If you are not influenced by marketers you are probably the only man in the world who has that luxury. I certainly am, and I know most of their tricks.
I’m sure it’s exponents believe so. I am aware that sales figures reflect success in some attempts at changing consumer behaviour. But I’m not a typical consumer, and for me modern marketing methodology is usually annoyingly obvious. Don’t make the mistake of believing that others are necessarily less sophisticated or their perceptions less accurately developed.

[Deano]

Mmmmmmm this is getting entertaining

[Delerium]

Not aware? How arrogant.

Advertise at me all you like, those clever fuckers aren't as clever as you might believe. I'm an engineer, I know how stuff should be made and I know how much it costs to make. When I see prices associated with products that are obviously blown out of proportion by advertising budgets, (or anything else) I make a note not to buy that product.

There's a bunch of manufacturers on my shit list. Some of them are there because they once sold me crap, some are there because their advertising or their corperate ethics are offensive. I wonder if any of them are your clients.

out of curiosity, do you have any exmples of the manufacturers?

[shrub]

I did not. I’m not exaggerating, dude, I can hear / see manipulative behaviour fucking miles away, I ignore it. I learned that, like a lot of good lads from ignoring my mother, and compared to her you lot are rank amateurs.


I’m sure it’s exponents believe so. I am aware that sales figures reflect success in some attempts at changing consumer behaviour. But I’m not a typical consumer, and for me modern marketing methodology is usually annoyingly obvious. Don’t make the mistake of believing that others are necessarily less sophisticated or their perceptions less accurately developed.

I'm sure you're an extremely sophisticated and highly developed chap, (after all, you are an engineer), and you're probably right that you are significantly smarter and more astute than I am; but you're a human (despite being an engineer). Humans (even engineers) are influenced by stimuli in generally predictable ways, and marketers use that ability to be influenced to shape attitudes and from there to alter behavioural patterns.

However despite your assertions that you are above being influenced by marketer's wiles, your belief that because you don't use information contained in advertising to make your buying decisions you are therefore not influenced in the slightest bit by marketing suggests that your understanding of marketing is probably a little limited. Advertising is only a single component of marketing a business because in a modern and sophisticated marketplace (you're not the only person who uses objective data to make decisions, believe me) it takes a lot more than simply saying "we're here and we sell nails and string" to build market share.

I know you have a very low opinion of those shysters and tricksters who use the smoke and mirrors of marketing to confuse and influence those more naive and stupid than you, but you may be surprised how clever some of my colleagues are. Some may even be smarter than you because superior intellect is not confined to the engineering profession, and may even have been more persuasive than your sainted mother.

[Ocean1]

out of curiosity, do you have any exmples of the manufacturers?

Yes.

But I'm not advertising them, It'd be annoying.

[shrub]

Yes.

But I'm not advertising them, It'd be annoying.

I hate to say it, but everyone has certain companies they won't deal with. Even the supremely gullible.

[Ocean1]

your belief that because you don't use information contained in advertising to make your buying decisions you are therefore not influenced in the slightest bit by marketing suggests that your understanding of marketing is probably a little limited.

Probably. A lack I'm pleased to extend to the field in detail.



I know you have a very low opinion of those shysters and tricksters who use the smoke and mirrors of marketing to confuse and influence those more naive and stupid than you, but you may be surprised how clever some of my colleagues are. Some may even be smarter than you because superior intellect is not confined to the engineering profession, and may even have been more persuasive than your sainted mother.

Oh I'm sure they're absolutely bristling with PhDs and MBAs and whatnot, whereas I can't see much further through a brick wall than average, but I do value quality products and I've learned the very best way to find them starts with completely eliminating any influence the manufacturer has in that decision.

As for subconscious uptake of supposedly ingenious subliminal marketing... if my preferences are at all coloured by such then you guys have the strangest ideas about what your employers might have me want. And at the risk of using the repetitive reinforcement thing you guys apparently invented and perfected I’ll say again that an army of interested opinion will affect the quality and value of any product or service not a jot, it simply wastes resources better spent elsewhere.

[Ocean1]

I hate to say it, but everyone has certain companies they won't deal with. Even the supremely gullible.

I'm learning that characteristic of marketing dudes, that they hate disseminating falsehood.

[shrub]

Probably. A lack I'm pleased to extend to the field in detail.




Oh I'm sure they're absolutely bristling with PhDs and MBAs and whatnot, whereas I can't see much further through a brick wall than average, but I do value quality products and I've learned the very best way to find them starts with completely eliminating any influence the manufacturer has in that decision.

As for subconscious uptake of supposedly ingenious subliminal marketing... if my preferences are at all coloured by such then you guys have the strangest ideas about what your employers might have me want. And at the risk of using the repetitive reinforcement thing you guys apparently invented and perfected I’ll say again that an army of interested opinion will affect the quality and value of any product or service not a jot, it simply wastes resources better spent elsewhere.

I'm sure you're right and education and knowledge are vastly overrated. And on that note, I have a glass of superb merlot and a thick, rare steak waiting for me, and much as I enjoy debating with you, meat and alcohol are always impossible to resist.

[Pussy]

I'm learning that characteristic of marketing dudes, that they hate disseminating falsehood.

Shrub is saying..
"When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying "We're not all as open to manipulation like you think we are"

I'm with YOU on this one! Most marketers are serial underachievers with too higher opinion of themselves....

[Ocean1]

I'm sure you're right and education and knowledge...

Tenuous relationship there at best I reckon.


... are vastly overrated.

Compared to, say wisdom?

Absofuckinglutely.


And on that note, I have a glass of superb merlot and a thick, rare steak waiting for me

As recommended by Consumer?

[shrub]

Shrub is saying..
"When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying "We're not all as open to manipulation like you think we are"

I'm with YOU on this one! Most marketers are serial underachievers with too higher opinion of themselves....

No, what Shrub is saying is that Ocean happily admits he knows very little about marketing and how marketers influence the behaviour of people, and therefore it's very hard to believe he is somehow immune from being influenced by mechanisms he doesn't know even exist. I'm probably much more likely not to be influenced because i know the tactics and strategies used, therefore I am able to recognise them when they're being implemented. Kind of like a mechanic is much more likely to know when their bike is running well.

Ocean is essentially saying "I am never influenced by marketing, primarily because I'm an engineer". Unfortunately I can point you to a heap of research that shows all humans are able to be influenced and manipulated, including engineers.

[shrub]

Tenuous relationship there at best I reckon.

I guess you know of ways to gain knowledge other than by learning - Neo in the Matrix took pills, maybe you sleep with a book under your pillow or because you're an engineer you automatically know everything (funny, when I was an aircraft engineer I spent hours studying - I must be stupid). Unfortunately the only way I know to gain knowledge and skill is to spend a hell of a lot of time reading, researching, analysing, interpreting, reporting and being taught by people who know more than me. Like I said, I must be stupid because that's hard work. I'd be stoked if you could share your secret of gaining knowledge without an education.



Compared to, say wisdom?

Wisdom is something that comes with time and usually follows a desire to understand. By your own admission you don't understand how marketers work, and have no desire to gain that understanding. Every day those devious underachievers expose you to a vast number of messages from a wide array of sources, and those messages all contribute to the way all of us form our opinions and values, from our political opinions, how and what we consume to how we relate to others.

A wise man would want to understand how this, do you not think? Or do you subscribe to the philosophy that ignorance is bliss?


As recommended by Consumer?

No, the steak was recommended by the butcher and the wine is one that was given a good review in cuisine by a wine writer who I generally agree with. I know it's foolish to listen to experts, and you probably automatically know which wines are good wines, but sadly I haven't been an engineer for over 20 years.

[Ocean1]

Ocean is essentially saying "I am never influenced by marketing, primarily because I'm an engineer". Unfortunately I can point you to a heap of research that shows all humans are able to be influenced and manipulated, including engineers.

No, it just gives me a small head start in comparing a product with whatever claims are made for it.


Unfortunately the only way I know to gain knowledge and skill is to spend a hell of a lot of time reading, researching, analysing, interpreting, reporting and being taught by people who know more than me.

I’m sure some of that still happens in some of our education institutions. Somewhere.


By your own admission you don't understand how marketers work, and have no desire to gain that understanding.

Oh I’m not utterly ignorant, given the volume of marketing traffic it’d be difficult to be as oblivious to the various techniques employed as I’d like to be. And that’s rather the point I was trying to make, I’d like to be a lot less imposed upon by unsolicited bullshit.


Every day those devious underachievers expose you to a vast number of messages from a wide array of sources, and those messages all contribute to the way all of us form our opinions and values, from our political opinions, how and what we consume to how we relate to others.

Fair enough, if you’re dealing with opinions and values. I tend to avoid that as much as possible when looking for facts. Marketing influence may well make that more difficult than it might otherwise be, but nonetheless I do my best.


sadly I haven't been an engineer for over 20 years.

A point on which I’m somewhat grateful, given that I occasionally have need to fly in aeroplanes. I’d be disturbed to know that the person responsible for it’s continued airworthiness might consider it easier and cheaper to simply convince me that the plane was a nice shade of yellow and the flight attendants extraordinarily sexy rather than actually get his hands dirty.

[admenk]

and the flight attendants extraordinarily sexy rather than actually get his hands dirty.

Why not combine the two and have extraordinarily dirty sexy flight attendants :drool:

[shrub]

I remembered a previous comment of yours back at post #53:


Advertise at me all you like, those clever fuckers aren't as clever as you might believe. I'm an engineer, I know how stuff should be made and I know how much it costs to make. When I see prices associated with products that are obviously blown out of proportion by advertising budgets, (or anything else) I make a note not to buy that product.

I have to say I am incredibly impressed by the depth of knowledge you display - I have an idea how much it costs to make some stuff, but as a percentage of what i use and consume it's minimal. To know how much it costs to make everything you buy is very, very impressive, but how do you know how much of the margin the retailer has placed on that good is marketing, how much is freight (silly me, you probably know how much it costs to freight everything from anywhere), how much is marketing and how much is simply profit. Give you admit to knowing nothing about advertising, I somehow doubt you know what percentage of a product's cost is their marketing.

Like you, there are some products that are ridiculously overpriced, and you pay a lot of money for the name - Levis jeans, Apple MP3 players and Harley Davidson Motorbicycles spring to mind. I commend you for not purchasing these products, although they are all very good quality, and often the best in their class. This position, while admirable, means you will be often purchasing second best products.

And that leads me to another comment you made:


There's a bunch of manufacturers on my shit list. Some of them are there because they once sold me crap, some are there because their advertising or their corperate ethics are offensive. I wonder if any of them are your clients.

I honestly thought you never bought crap, but I guess you're just like the rest of us there. However I was interested that there are some companies who's products you won 't buy because of their advertising. I thought advertising didn't influence you? Would you not buy something because you disliked the company's advertising, even if it was the best quality and best value option?

[shrub]

I’m sure some of that still happens in some of our education institutions. Somewhere.

Yes, quite a lot, especially in the liberal arts, hard sciences and at postgraduate level at universities.


Oh I’m not utterly ignorant, given the volume of marketing traffic it’d be difficult to be as oblivious to the various techniques employed as I’d like to be. And that’s rather the point I was trying to make, I’d like to be a lot less imposed upon by unsolicited bullshit.

Fair enough, if you’re dealing with opinions and values. I tend to avoid that as much as possible when looking for facts. Marketing influence may well make that more difficult than it might otherwise be, but nonetheless I do my best.

You do your best not to be influenced by advertising and make your decisions rationall, something most smart people do, but you're as vulnerable to the machinations of PR and marketing people as anyone, including me.



A point on which I’m somewhat grateful, given that I occasionally have need to fly in aeroplanes. I’d be disturbed to know that the person responsible for it’s continued airworthiness might consider it easier and cheaper to simply convince me that the plane was a nice shade of yellow and the flight attendants extraordinarily sexy rather than actually get his hands dirty.

Sadly the aircraft I worked on were either camoflage painted or white and grey (Andovers and P3 Orions), and in those days the crew were all ugly looking blokes.

[Ocean1]

I have to say I am incredibly impressed by the depth of knowledge you display - I have an idea how much it costs to make some stuff, but as a percentage of what i use and consume it's minimal. To know how much it costs to make everything you buy is very, very impressive, but how do you know how much of the margin the retailer has placed on that good is marketing, how much is freight (silly me, you probably know how much it costs to freight everything from anywhere), how much is marketing and how much is simply profit. Give you admit to knowing nothing about advertising, I somehow doubt you know what percentage of a product's cost is their marketing.

How knowledgeable do you need to be to understand that a pair of designer sunglasses didn’t cost anywhere near the $600 asking price to manufacture? I simply don’t care to buy products that have associated marketing costs of several hundred times that of the actual product value.


Like you, there are some products that are ridiculously overpriced, and you pay a lot of money for the name - Levis jeans, Apple MP3 players and Harley Davidson Motorbicycles spring to mind. I commend you for not purchasing these products, although they are all very good quality, and often the best in their class. This position, while admirable, means you will be often purchasing second best products.

The only value I see in a name is it’s history in supplying me with quality products at what I consider a reasonable cost. A brand I’ve had no experience with is only going to build that history if the product turns out to be worth the asking price. If Levi et al can make a product that meets those requirements in spite of having spent a lot on their “name” then I’m happy. If they spend a lot on branding their product and I find it’s a steaming pile of excrement then I simply don’t support them any further. Might be unusual behaviour in today’s consumer but I don’t think it’s all that radical.


I honestly thought you never bought crap, but I guess you're just like the rest of us there. However I was interested that there are some companies who's products you won 't buy because of their advertising. I thought advertising didn't influence you? Would you not buy something because you disliked the company's advertising, even if it was the best quality and best value option?

Of course I’ve bought crap, I’m not infallible. But I’ve only ever bought crap from a supplier once. And if any supplier behaves like those with whom I’ve had bad experiences previously then why the hell would I want to deal with them either?

[shrub]

How knowledgeable do you need to be to understand that a pair of designer sunglasses didn’t cost anywhere near the $600 asking price to manufacture? I simply don’t care to buy products that have associated marketing costs of several hundred times that of the actual product value.

Hmmm, you really don't understand marketing, do you? Or much about business I'm willing to bet. The $600.00 price of a pair of Bvlgari or Prada sunglasses does not reflect the marketing costs of those sunglasses. In fact, you will find that the super-premium brands spend virtually nothing on marketing because they don't need to.

The ridiculous price is partly a reflection of the value the customer gains from wearning them. When you buy sunnies like that, you're either super rich and $600.00 is not even milk money, or you want people to think you're super rich and/or a sophisticated consumer. When your friends see you with them on, they are impressed and want to have sex with you.

It's called capitalism and the free market, and yes it's silly, but selling shit for far more than it's worth is a vital component of that charming model. Just like encouraging people to buy shit they don't need, don't even really want and certainly can't afford. BTW if you can't afford it, we have finance available with very affordable payments.

[Pussy]

Hmmmm... I'm missing something here.
If I see someone with a $600.00 pair of sunnies, I think "what a pretentious wanker"...

[mashman]

Hmmmm... I'm missing something here.
If I see someone with a $600.00 pair of sunnies, I think "what a pretentious wanker"...

I'm usually too busy looking at her tits :devil2:

[Ocean1]

When your friends see you with them on, they are impressed and want to have sex with you.

Perhaps that explains any misapprehension. Charming as they are I don't have too many friends I'd spend $600 to have sex with. The few I'd consider worth the price wouldn't be friends if they were impressed by $600 dollar sunnies.


It's called capitalism and the free market, and yes it's silly, but selling shit for far more than it's worth is a vital component of that charming model. Just like encouraging people to buy shit they don't need, don't even really want and certainly can't afford. BTW if you can't afford it, we have finance available with very affordable payments.

How on earth can misrepresenting a product be considered a key element of capitalism? It might recently have paid dividends in terms of a return on expenditure but dishonest behaviour isn’t an exclusive feature of capitalism, and usury has been around since before the term capitalism was even coined.

[shrub]

How on earth can misrepresenting a product be considered a key element of capitalism?

There you go back to misrepresenting stuff. A $600 pair of sunglasses doesn't misrepresent anything - they are well made high quality sunglasses that have a little label somewhere that people who are into that kind of shit recognise. They don't claim to allow time travel, to turn water into Bolly or even to make the wearer a better person. All they are is what they look like - sunglasses with a label that says "expensive".

You really must try to be a little less paranoid - everyone isn't constantly trying to deceive you.

[SPman]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by shrub http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1130012085#post1130012085)
......... and education and knowledge...

Tenuous relationship there at best I reckon.

Absofuckinglutely.

[shrub]

Absofuckinglutely.

How do you gain knowledge if not by being taught stuff? All my life I've worked my arse off to gain skills and knowledge by doing an apprenticeship, doing courses, being trained by other people, practicing the stuff I've learnt and going to university. At university the idiots in charge expected me to read, research, analyse, test, experiment and then report on what I had found out. It's been fucking hard work, has s taken many years and a shitload of money to get where I am, yet you and Ocean seem to know I'd love to find an easy way to gain knowledge and skills, and I would love to learn your secrets.

I'd love to learn a heap more stuff, so can you guys tell me how you gain knowledge without an education? Is there a pill I can take like in the Matrix? Or do you wave crystals over your heads, sleep on books or is knowledge hereditory? How much do you want for your secrets?