Fukushima nuclear plant explosion [Archive]

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Winston001

12th March 2011, 21:25

Shag. On TV there is footage of one of the reactors exploding. It looks like the containment building has been breached which means radioactive dust is being released into the local environment.

Its like Chernobyl but with live coverage.

Sky channel 96

Mom

12th March 2011, 21:37

Oh dear GOD! Too much! Those poor people.

Smokin

12th March 2011, 21:38

Bloody hell, Could it get any worse for the poor buggers.

mashman

12th March 2011, 21:41

We just got back from the rugby and saw it... did you see the arced shockwave bursting upwards... looked like a very violent explosion. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, poor buggas

Winston001

12th March 2011, 21:49

My guess is the containment building has been breached from the build-up of water pressure around the reactor. That has resulted in radioactive dust and smoke being released into the environment.

The problem with this reactor is that the electrical pumps failed after the earthquake despite backups, so the flow of cooling water around the reactor stopped flowing. The reactor automatically shut-down but that doesn't stop or release the heat already in the pile.

There are positives: only one of four reactors at Fukushima has failed. Japanese authorities have been evacuating people over the past 24 hours. The danger is from radioactive dust, not from any sort of atomic bomb explosion. Its possible there won't be a melt-down of the core which can still be cooled if the engineers can get water flowing. Damned dangerous work though.

EJK

12th March 2011, 21:53

Fucking hell...

Crasherfromwayback

12th March 2011, 22:00

So all of the fuckheads that were/are against wind turbines because they're an eyesore...what would you rather have?

Winston001

12th March 2011, 22:05

So all of the fuckheads that were/are against wind turbines because they're an eyesore...what would you rather have?

Umm...actually counter-intuitive as it must seem, I'm still in favour of nulear power. This Fukushima reactor is a 40 year old Westinghouse which is known as old and a bad design. It has had safety features added but clearly they were defeated by this massive earthquake.

The new reactors are far better designed. Japan has a lot of reactors and this is the only one which has failed. Provided the public are evacuated - which has been going on for 24 hours - they are safe.

mashman

12th March 2011, 22:07

I thought a shutdown caused the nuclear material to be removed from the fusion chamber? Is this the bit that failed?

Winston001

12th March 2011, 22:14

Update - wind is blowing east from Fukushima out to sea. That is the prevailing wind direction and the reason Japanese nuclear plants are built on the east coasts of Japan. So hopefully most of the radioactive dust and steam will blow away to sea.

Ocean1

12th March 2011, 22:14

I thought a shutdown caused the nuclear material to be removed from the fusion chamber? Is this the bit that failed?

No, the reaction stopped automatically when the quake hit, the latent heat in the surounding mass is still there, though.

What failed was the cooling system, and it's backup. The third tier backup was designed to last for just a few hours, enough to buy time and to minimise damage in any subsequent containment breach.

Crasherfromwayback

12th March 2011, 22:15

Umm...actually counter-intuitive as it must seem, I'm still in favour of nulear power. This Fukushima reactor is a 40 year old Westinghouse which is known as old and a bad design. It has had safety features added but clearly they were defeated by this massive earthquake.

The new reactors are far better designed. Japan has a lot of reactors and this is the only one which has failed. Provided the public are evacuated - which has been going on for 24 hours - they are safe.

Shit hot!

My self personally...I'd rather try and dodge spinning blades than radioactive fallout after /during a big shake. Either way...best wishes to Japan. Mega bad buzz.

mashman

12th March 2011, 22:18

No, the reaction stopped automatically when the quake hit, the latent heat in the surounding mass is still there, though.

What failed was the cooling system, and it's backup. The third tier backup was designed to last for just a few hours, enough to buy time and to minimise damage in any subsequent containment breach.

:shit: so the coolant heated, turned to steam and blew the place apart?

Mental Trousers

12th March 2011, 22:28

That was a hell of an explosion.

There's enough heat in a scrammed reactor to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. If they recombine, that's a hell of an explosion.

When an emergency shutdown of a reactor takes place the graphite control rods or whatever they're using drop into place. The nuclear material doesn't go anywhere, it stays where it is until it's used up. The control rods soak up all the stray protons etc (ie the beta radiation) and that stops the reactor from starting a chain reaction. The damn thing is still friggin hot though so the cooling systems need to be running to get rid of the heat, otherwise it just gets hotter and hotter until things start to melt. Then bad shit happens.

Winston001

12th March 2011, 22:38

:shit: so the coolant heated, turned to steam and blew the place apart?

Yes. Not quite that straight-forward but essentially right.

The reactor core is a sealed system running water or liquid sodium around the radioactive centre. Outside that is the containment vessel which has low-pressure flowing water which picks up the heat from the sealed system. It is essential for this water to keep flowing because it removes heat (it turns into steam) and drives a generator. It keeps the reactor sealed system cool and safe.

Outside all of that is the containment building which is supposed to keep any steam leaks in.

Mental Trousers

12th March 2011, 22:43

Sounds like the experts are leaning towards an actual explosion rather than a pressurized steam breach. Main reason is the lack of white smoke in the explosion itself. There was white smoke earlier, but not when the explosion happened.

Brian d marge

12th March 2011, 22:44

oh bolloxs
tomorrow is raining and the wind is in the east

oh nuts

Stephen

Mike Troutman

12th March 2011, 22:50

Well, having been a nuclear reactor operator....

1: the reactor was shut down. loss of coolant results in the core from being able to maintain criticality.

2: WAS a gas explosion. nothing more than that.

3: The containment buildings prevented anything too horrible happening.

4: Could be worse and don't trust 'experts' hired by the media.

Mike Troutman

12th March 2011, 22:58

oh yeah, if there is water in the reactor core super criticiality will be achieved due to the nature of that type of reactor. then yeah, could melt down resulting in a large steam explosion spreading nasty stuffs around. this is what happened at chyrnobel. except the russian reactor was for a different reason.

Marmoot

12th March 2011, 23:08

Stephen

Hey glad to see you're ok.

Winston001

12th March 2011, 23:20

Well, having been a nuclear reactor operator....

4: Could be worse and don't trust 'experts' hired by the media.

Fair enough except some experts do know what they are talking about. The professor on BBC makes a lot of sense.

This explosion is grey suggesting concrete dust. If there is a lot of steam its not obvious - but even so that should be the cause of the breach of the building.

We don't know if the containment vessel itself has ruptured but there is a good chance it hasn't.

Correct me by all means: as I understand it the engineers were releasing steam from the containment vessel cooling water into the building to reduce the pressure. That built up and ruptured the building = explosion we saw.

Nevertheless the nuclear system still has structural integrity although the coolant is leaking steam in an uncontrolled way. No steam visible on cameras at the moment.

Edit: switching between BBC 93 and RT channel 96 - very good coverage on both.

jonbuoy

13th March 2011, 02:41

Chernobyl reactor was still "running" till the bitter end. They say the only problem with Fukushima was the backup generators being swamped by water, they only had a battery powered cooling systems to take away the latent heat from the core. Media are asking why they built reactors on the coast - what do they think is used to cool the cooling system for the reactor. :rolleyes:

CookMySock

13th March 2011, 06:20

With no coolant flow, it was just a matter of time before the cooling jacket reached either the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_point_(thermodynamics)">critical state</a>, or the destruction pressure of the cooling system. It does surprise me that they did not bleed off high pressure gas to prevent this, or that a safety device did not do it involuntarily.

An alternate theory might be, if the coolant HAD been allowed to evaporate and release in a controlled fashion, there might have actually been little or no coolant remaining. The problem at this point if they ADD coolant, that coolant will immediately and uncontrollably proceed through its critical point and expand at such a rate that the safety valves cannot cope with its' volume.

The grey dust is almost certainly going to be from the destruction of the building.

It also surprises me that they were unable to jury-rig any pump whatsoever to feed the unit. Surely they must have a big-ass diesel nearby to call into service.

Fortunately its in quite a rural area.

mrchips

13th March 2011, 06:43

jonbuoy

13th March 2011, 06:52

The Japs aren´t daft, sure its not as easy as getting an off the shelf water pump and bolting it onto a flange sticking out of the reactor.

ajturbo

13th March 2011, 08:19

Karma......?????

Virago

13th March 2011, 08:26

Karma......?????

Elaborate...?

CookMySock

13th March 2011, 08:39

Elaborate...?Lets not ay? Some comments are best left to just slide away, like they were never there.

sidecar bob

13th March 2011, 09:13

You mean..... blown away to inhabited land in the pacific

Yeah, it seems it will only affect others, so sweet as, no problem there.:niceone:

carbonhed

13th March 2011, 09:13

Elaborate...?

+1 and 10 chars.

Pussy

13th March 2011, 09:22

You mean..... blown away to inhabited land in the pacific

Strictly speaking, an east wind will be blowing FROM the Pacific.
Wind direction is always expressed in "From".

spacemonkey

13th March 2011, 09:39

So hopefully most of the radioactive dust and steam will blow away to sea.

Mothra will NOT be happy..........

Shadows

13th March 2011, 09:59

Karma......?????

Yep. It's a bitch.

Winston001

13th March 2011, 10:03

You mean..... blown away to inhabited land in the pacific

No, I don't mean that. The Pacific ocean to the east of Japan is vast and empty. Any radioactive particles will mix into the atmosphere or precipitate with rain into the ocean. There are always radioactive particles in the air and water, its part of the natural world.

Studies around Bikini Atoll found that the fish had relatively low levels of radiation after the hydrogen bomb tests finished.

The isotopes which have vented from the explosion are short-lived, the exceptions being Caesium (30 years) and Iodine (59 days). Some of the latter have been detected which indicates damage to the reactor core. Nevertheless that doesn't mean the reactor containment vessel is damaged, only that it had to be vented to release pressure.

In fact at this stage, the disaster is looking like a remarkable tick for nuclear reactor safety. If there was ever going to be a catastrophic nuclear incident this was it: a Richter 8.9 earthquake, a tsunami, and a cooling system failure - on an old plant - should have done the job. But not so far.

Brian d marge

13th March 2011, 12:26

ok here , bit off a cough , but we have these

234306

Seem to work

Stephen

onearmedbandit

13th March 2011, 12:38

In fact at this stage, the disaster is looking like a remarkable tick for nuclear reactor safety. If there was ever going to be a catastrophic nuclear incident this was it: a Richter 8.9 earthquake, a tsunami, and a cooling system failure - on an old plant - should have done the job. But not so far.

Bloody good point.

HenryDorsetCase

13th March 2011, 12:50

update - wind is blowing east from fukushima out to sea. That is the prevailing wind direction and the reason japanese nuclear plants are built on the east coasts of japan. So hopefully most of the radioactive dust and steam will blow away to sea.

ive seen the future and it is three eyed fish like in the simpsons

flee for your lives!!!!!

HenryDorsetCase

13th March 2011, 12:53

you mean..... Blown away to inhabited land in the pacific

look at a map, budday.

blackdog

13th March 2011, 13:11

ellipsis

13th March 2011, 13:26

probably not on topic, but a guy i was working with yesterday had an interesting observation.

he said "if we keep taking billions of barrels of oil out surely the planet will become like a balloon that is 1/4 filled with water."

he's no genius but i think he might have a point.

...think you may find it comes from porous rock and shale deposits that dont really leave big holes under there when its removed and replaced by water etc...

Blackflagged

13th March 2011, 14:00

zeocen

13th March 2011, 14:09

Karma......?????

Yep. It's a bitch.

I really, really hope I'm wrong but I hope you two aren't suggesting this current generation is receiving karma for the previous generation's attack on Pearl Harbour.

Because, I'm pretty sure their karma quota was filled with Hiroshima and Nagasaki's 60,000 - 166,000's deaths versus Pearl Harbour's 1250 deaths.

Unbelievable to even utter the word Karma in this situation.

onearmedbandit

13th March 2011, 14:35

Just a couple of idiots looking for a bite. Ignore them.

Katman

13th March 2011, 14:57

probably not on topic, but a guy i was working with yesterday had an interesting observation.

he said "if we keep taking billions of barrels of oil out surely the planet will become like a balloon that is 1/4 filled with water."

he's no genius but i think he might have a point.

I've often wondered just how much lubricating effect that deep seated oil fields may provide for the movement of the earth's crust.

Certainly food for thought.

Blackflagged

13th March 2011, 15:11

Maybe try a combination of Ken Ring and KY Jelly?

mashman

13th March 2011, 15:18

According to the news they're having a similar coolant system issue with another one of the Fukushima reactors. They also mentioned that the inner reactor structure was intact, hence the low levels of radiation

Mike Troutman

13th March 2011, 15:54

Ocean1

13th March 2011, 16:19

it's actually in a super critical state.

Like my ex wife?

She never made much steam, though...

mashman

13th March 2011, 16:24

Pressurised water reactors are not all so bad even in the condition this one is in. It has a negative temperature co-efficiant of reactivity meaning the hotter the core gets the less reactive the fuel. Also means the fuel requires water to sustain a super critical reaction. btw 'critical' means a stable reaction. when a nuclear reactor is generating power it's actually in a super critical state.

Stupid question time. I read they are bringing in diesel generators and batteries to get the coolant pumps up and running again. As they have steam pressure, is there any reason they couldn't use a steam engine to power the pumps (other than availability)? or is there any reason that they couldn't use the plant turbine generation system to power the coolant pumps (given that they are venting steam anyway)? I'm just curious and my ignorance knows no bounds :).

Winston001

13th March 2011, 16:47

....is there any reason they couldn't use a steam engine to power the pumps (other than availability)? or is there any reason that they couldn't use the plant turbine generation system to power the coolant pumps (given that they are venting steam anyway)? .

Well, they tried that at Chernobyl. That's why it blew up. The engineers were running a test using the generator's run-down speed to power emergency cooling.

Good idea but needed work...:(

In other words, no.

The steam being vented is abnormal and an emergency release. It could never be used to run pumps. Just as the release cap on your car radiator isn't used to spin the alternator.

mashman

13th March 2011, 16:57

Well, they tried that at Chernobyl. That's why it blew up. The engineers were running a test using the generator's run-down speed to power emergency cooling.

Good idea but needed work...:(

In other words, no.

The steam being vented is abnormal and an emergency release. It could never be used to run pumps. Just as the release cap on your car radiator isn't used to spin the alternator.

Ta...

:rofl:@radiator cap powered alternator...

I know i'll regret this :yes:, what is abnormal steam?

Blackflagged

13th March 2011, 17:01

0426: Japanese government spokesman Yukio Edano says radioactive meltdowns may have occurred in two reactors at the plant - AFP (From BBC)

rainman

13th March 2011, 17:06

Unbelievable to even utter the word Karma in this situation.

Pedantic mode on...

Karma does not mean what you seem to think it does. It does not mean "due deserts", or "direct punishment/reward for past actions". It just means "action" as the root of the cycle of cause and effect (samsara - birth, life, death, rebirth). Essentially saying that most worldly things (notably suffering, or dukkha) aren't caused by the will of a god or the gods, but arise dependently upon actions. (There is no god, most of the shit that happens is either our doing, or is just random shit, part of the human condition).

If these actions are "skillful", then there tend to be skillful (think good, or positive) results. If they are not (informed by greed, aversion and delusion) , there tend to be unskillful outcomes.

This is an essential part of understanding buddhism (or any similar world view - the concept of karma predates Gautama, I think). It's the key to the first two noble truths:
1. Suffering exists
2. Suffering arises dependent on (unskillful) action

The dependent arising of suffering from actions is called pratītyasamutpāda, which has to be one of the coolest words ever. When people talk about Karma, they usually mean something like Pratītyasamutpāda. But karma is easier to pronounce, I'll admit.

Expressed differently, it's basically "Actions have consequences, and if you act stoopid, you're likely to get unpleasant consequences (but life's complex and you might be lucky/unlucky)". A sentiment that I suspect many here would wholeheartedly support.

Here endeth the lesson.

zeocen

13th March 2011, 17:54

Your incredibly nerd-tastic correction just propelled 72.6 females into space due to how much that explanation shifted their attraction towards you.

Winston001

13th March 2011, 18:36

I know i'll regret this :yes:, what is abnormal steam?

Radioactive steam. From the water surrounding the reactor core. This is a sealed system and the water/steam doesn't get out. Except for emergency venting to reduce pressure.

The vented steam goes into a pool inside the reactor containment building so its still controlled. However too much steam and heat can lead to H2O dissociating into H and O and then exploding violently.

The blast from Fukushima 1 is the reactor containment building itself and looks like a hydrogen explosion.

NB: we are not talking about the reactor containment vessel which appears to be doing its job holding the core in.

Brian d marge

13th March 2011, 20:27

Pedantic mode on...

Karma does not mean what you seem to think it does. It does not mean "due deserts", or "direct punishment/reward for past actions". It just means "action" as the root of the cycle of cause and effect (samsara - birth, life, death, rebirth). Essentially saying that most worldly things (notably suffering, or dukkha) aren't caused by the will of a god or the gods, but arise dependently upon actions. (There is no god, most of the shit that happens is either our doing, or is just random shit, part of the human condition).

If these actions are "skillful", then there tend to be skillful (think good, or positive) results. If they are not (informed by greed, aversion and delusion) , there tend to be unskillful outcomes.

This is an essential part of understanding buddhism (or any similar world view - the concept of karma predates Gautama, I think). It's the key to the first two noble truths:
1. Suffering exists
2. Suffering arises dependent on (unskillful) action

The dependent arising of suffering from actions is called pratītyasamutpāda, which has to be one of the coolest words ever. When people talk about Karma, they usually mean something like Pratītyasamutpāda. But karma is easier to pronounce, I'll admit.

Expressed differently, it's basically "Actions have consequences, and if you act stoopid, you're likely to get unpleasant consequences (but life's complex and you might be lucky/unlucky)". A sentiment that I suspect many here would wholeheartedly support.

Here endeth the lesson.

And a good lesson it was

Japan has Wa which means obedient , bowing bending , and is a concept of group harmony which most westerners get wrong

Even down to the personal pronoun Watashi ( my) which the Japanese omit because its not good for the group

When I try and think about it ,, my head explodes

and Pratītyasamutpāda hard , real hard, to be skillful at

Stephen

Brian d marge

13th March 2011, 20:30

I've often wondered just how much lubricating effect that deep seated oil fields may provide for the movement of the earth's crust.

Certainly food for thought.

Synthetic or Castrol R ????

Stephen

pete376403

13th March 2011, 21:09

The winds from Japan blows over to the USA(There a name for it i can`t remember), they sent bombs on balloons during the war some made it.

Breaking News or Bullshit? - http://www.realnewsreporter.com/?p=891

The incendiary balloons didn't blow all the way from japan, they were released from submarines quite close to the US west coast.

pete376403

13th March 2011, 21:09

Synthetic or Castrol R ????

Stephen
Pleased to see that in spite of everything going down over there you still retain a sense of humour.

Blackflagged

13th March 2011, 21:15

The incendiary balloons didn't blow all the way from japan, they were released from submarines quite close to the US west coast.

Well that was from memory - but on checking, first goggle hit seems to agree.
http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/balloon.html

But really was about the wind current , Jet stream.

Brian d marge

13th March 2011, 22:01

Pleased to see that in spite of everything going down over there you still retain a sense of humour.

Dont worry, I have a hat , all tin foil lined , They wont catch me with George Micheal

Stephen 234379

jonbuoy

13th March 2011, 22:25

jonbuoy

13th March 2011, 22:32

probably not on topic, but a guy i was working with yesterday had an interesting observation.

he said "if we keep taking billions of barrels of oil out surely the planet will become like a balloon that is 1/4 filled with water."

he's no genius but i think he might have a point.

If there was enough oil to lube tectonic plates we wouldn´t be running out for a few more million years.

Brian d marge

14th March 2011, 00:53

Power in Tokyo is off tomorrow ,

Charge those laptops !!!

Stephen

Winston001

14th March 2011, 05:43

I wonder when all this is over if all the other reactors will be fitted with a better backup cooling system or sealed boxes and massive snorkel stacks for the generators. You´d hope we all learn from mistakes/experience.

Fukushima No 1 is a 40 year old Westinghouse reactor design with known limitations. I haven't researched the latest designs but apparently they automatically run their own emergency cooling - which is what you are suggesting.

In fairness, who'd expect a massive earthquake, followed by a huge tsunami? This reactor had three layers for emergency cooling so there was a lot of redundancy planned for.

Maha

14th March 2011, 06:46

''In fairness, who'd expect a massive earthquake, followed by a huge tsunami''?

Given Japan's proximity to a major fault line and the fact that the country is the one that is most ready for a earthquake of any magnitude, to answer your question, I would say the Japanese?
And isn't tsunami a Japanese word?

onearmedbandit

14th March 2011, 07:56

And isn't tsunami a Japanese word?

Indeed it is.

MIXONE

14th March 2011, 07:59

[I]''In fairness, who'd expect a massive earthquake, followed by a huge tsunami''?
And isn't tsunami a Japanese word?

Yes roughly translated it means "run like fuck..."

jonbuoy

14th March 2011, 08:09

Fukushima No 1 is a 40 year old Westinghouse reactor design with known limitations. I haven't researched the latest designs but apparently they automatically run their own emergency cooling - which is what you are suggesting.

In fairness, who'd expect a massive earthquake, followed by a huge tsunami? This reactor had three layers for emergency cooling so there was a lot of redundancy planned for.

I was thinking maybe they should put the emergency generators in a lighthouse style building instead of on the ground where they could get wet. Lighthouses can take some punishment. Clearly the reactors weren't built with enough redundancy, surely somebody saw what happened in Thailand could happen to Japan. Japan has been hammered by tsunamis in the past. It probably all comes down to money.

Crasherfromwayback

14th March 2011, 08:53

Umm...actually counter-intuitive as it must seem, I'm still in favour of nulear power. This Fukushima reactor is a 40 year old Westinghouse which is known as old and a bad design. It has had safety features added but clearly they were defeated by this massive earthquake.

The new reactors are far better designed. Japan has a lot of reactors and this is the only one which has failed. Provided the public are evacuated - which has been going on for 24 hours - they are safe.

I hear ya. But I'm still preferring water or wind as a way of generating power. We have plenty of both here, and then we also have no waste we need to dispose of, and no worries of a meltdown regardless of how new and modern the facility is.

onearmedbandit

14th March 2011, 09:11

Wind power would be great, but you know what the greenies think about having fields of wind farms.

James Deuce

14th March 2011, 09:13

http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/

oneofsix

14th March 2011, 09:38

Mike Troutman

14th March 2011, 10:50

A pressurised water reactor has three coolant loops.

The reactor coolant cannot directly power anything, instead it heats secondary coolant in a steam generator. The secondary coolant removes heat from the reactor coolant by evaporation in the steam generator. This steam is then used to do actual work. this turns some of the steam back into water. the rest must be cooled by your third loop, which can be seawater, air whatever. the third loop is generaly an open loop. your secondary coolant returns as liquid water to the steam generator and the cycle repeats.

the diesel generators are required to power the primary coolant pumps as well as secondary pumps if required. most power plants have a secondary system that will function indefinently without any pump but this requires an open loop system. so the primary concern is the primary coolant flow. even then once you have flow restored to your primary coolant if you don't have some means of cooling that coolant you're still up a creek without a paddle. the primary coolant loop is a closed system so if you dont remove the heat from that somehow you will eventually get it hot enough to create steam which is just bad in a nuclear reactor. cuses things to melt as steam is a very poor thermal conductor.

There are plants in exsistance that have the possibility of creating an open primary coolant loop. it's strictly an emergancy system as dumping highly radioactive primary coolant anywhere is bad.

Mike Troutman

14th March 2011, 10:56

A good blog that simply explains the events from the writer's view point.
Particularly liked the line "The Cesium and Iodine isotopes were carried out to the sea and will never be seen again". I wish. They do raise the back ground level in the atmosphere but I understand what the writer meant.

Rodioctive Cesium and Iodine are highest on the list of contaminants in the coolant system, however not the worst. Cobalt 60 is by FAR the worse as even a small amount is very very very bad. and highly radioactive. cesium and iodine both occur naturally in a radioactive state, releasing more of the radioactive isotope isnt good, but not a world ender. Cobalt 60 however.... not good. bad thing is cobalt is an unintentional contaminant. it's from the bearings in the primary coolant pumps.

Ocean1

14th March 2011, 11:13

Nice find Jim.

If you want to stay informed, please forget the usual media outlets

I see at least one other person has identified at least one of the mechanisms in the dumbing down of the great unwashed.

I wonder if they're even aware of the consequences...

Wiki Drifter

14th March 2011, 15:36

second reactor has now exploded. :(

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4611/20110314.jpg

James Deuce

14th March 2011, 15:44

No it hasn't. Hydrogen created by a process explained in the link I posted a little earlier has exploded.

mashman

14th March 2011, 15:55

looks like a slightly bigger explosion this time

http://www.bradblog.com/Images/FukushimaPowerPlant_Explosion_031211_screengrab.jp g

Ronin

14th March 2011, 16:03

http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/

Brilliant find.

HenryDorsetCase

14th March 2011, 16:04

I hear ya. But I'm still preferring water or wind as a way of generating power. We have plenty of both here, and then we also have no waste we need to dispose of, and no worries of a meltdown regardless of how new and modern the facility is.

I'll take your water and wind and raise you tidal. Basically massive wind generators, but you know the wind will blow twice a day. I read a really interesting article about it. recently. Wired? Economist? hooters.com?

dipshit

14th March 2011, 16:11

At least Godzilla hasn't reawoken yet.

ajturbo

14th March 2011, 16:40

wow Matey.. how the hell did you find this????
I assume that this is true, and it was very informative...

Dam shame that there is no conspiracy .. would have made a great movie:banana:

http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/

Mental Trousers

14th March 2011, 17:06

I'll take your water and wind and raise you tidal. Basically massive wind generators, but you know the wind will blow twice a day. I read a really interesting article about it. recently. Wired? Economist? hooters.com?

... they're also much quieter (although the fish might argue that one) and don't look like shit too.

Winston001

14th March 2011, 18:49

Just heard on Fox News - Japanese authorities are flummoxed by groups of tinfoil-hat people taking lizards and moths to the Fukushima plant...:devil2:

Winston001

14th March 2011, 18:56

rainman

14th March 2011, 19:46

Wind power would be great, but you know what the greenies think about having fields of wind farms.

That they're a farking great idea?

I'll take your water and wind and raise you tidal.

They're also a farking great idea.

spacemonkey

14th March 2011, 19:48

That they're a farking great idea?

They're also a farking great idea.

2nded. :niceone:

Mental Trousers

14th March 2011, 19:51

That they're a farking great idea?

They're also a farking great idea.

2nded. :niceone:

You can't please the Greenies. Wind power is totally renewable etc. But it kills bird life and the land is unusable for anything else etc. You can't win.

Crasherfromwayback

14th March 2011, 19:53

You can't please the Greenies. Wind power is totally renewable etc. But it kills bird life and the land is unusable for anything else etc. You can't win.

Rather kill the odd bird that have to deal with radioactive fallout.

spacemonkey

14th March 2011, 19:56

You can't please the Greenies. Wind power is totally renewable etc. But it kills bird life and the land is unusable for anything else etc. You can't win.

Err I am a greenie the land is totally usable for other purposes as is demonstrated by the fact that almost every wind farm in NZ has a working farm beneath it.

Bird strike incidences in NZ are very very very low.
Go look at the greenparty policy on it.... We are very pro wind and tide power.

Ones that Don't like it are the Ngati wewereherefirst..... You ever been out to Makara?
I have and fucked If I could hear the noise that a few of the locals were bitching about??

rainman

14th March 2011, 20:07

You can't please the Greenies. Wind power is totally renewable etc. But it kills bird life and the land is unusable for anything else etc. You can't win.

Sure there are opposeniks that don't like anything but most greenies are pretty keen on renewables like wind and tidal.
I think the turbines around Palmy are beautiful, although I dunno if they make a hug noise in big wind for people right nearby etc. Can't hear them from the town or the road.

Winston001

14th March 2011, 20:09

Funny - there's an echo in here...in her...in he aarrgghh

mashman

14th March 2011, 20:09

You can't please the Greenies. Wind power is totally renewable etc. But it kills bird life and the land is unusable for anything else etc. You can't win.

So did the solar farms in Spain... they used to fry migratory birds... but they're still there.

Ronin

14th March 2011, 20:11

So did the solar farms in Spain... they used to fry migratory birds... but they're still there.

I have seen some of the migratory birds in Spain. Pommy ladies with skin like aged rawhide.

Winston001

14th March 2011, 20:16

Sure there are opposeniks that don't like anything but most greenies are pretty keen on renewables like wind and tidal.
.

Tidal power certainly makes sense but you know as well as I do that wind power is a tiny gesture. It provides a piffling amount of electricity and none of it reliably. Even solar is 15% efficient at best. The best that can be said about these two is that they are renewable and they represent genuine efforts to find alternatives to carbon based energy sources.

Personally I like tidal but believe nuclear fusion is the future.

marie_speeds

14th March 2011, 20:18

Err I am a greenie the land is totally usable for other purposes as is demonstrated by the fact that almost every wind farm in NZ has a working farm beneath it

Is that why the proposed one at the Manukau Heads got knocked back in enviro court on account of it might scare some farken horses next door?

spacemonkey

14th March 2011, 20:24

Yes that would be the court and a local "Ngati wewereherefirst" and not the greenies.
Did any greeines like Royal forest and bird, greenpeace, green party, marua society submit against it?

marie_speeds

14th March 2011, 20:34

Yes that would be the court and a local "Ngati wewereherefirst" and not the greenies.
Did any greeines like Royal forest abd bird, greenpeace, green party, marua society submit against it?

You stated that working farms exist under wind farms and I countered with an example of where farm animals were used to knock back a project. Who knows what political agenda or motive was behind it, or whether the farmer who objected was a greenie, fact remains it was a perfect location and because of a ridiculous reason it was knocked back. as have most of the proposals that have thus far been put forward. At any one time we only have approximately 6 weeks worth of water storage for the hydro stations so we as a country are at a point where we need to seriously consider new generation schemes. Even the geothermal plants rely on rain water so popping more of them in is not going to help our situation.

spacemonkey

14th March 2011, 20:47

You stated that working farms exist under wind farms and I countered with an example of where farm animals were used to knock back a project. Who knows what political agenda or motive was behind it, or whether the farmer who objected was a greenie, fact remains it was a perfect location and because of a ridiculous reason it was knocked back. as have most of the proposals that have thus far been put forward. At any one time we only have approximately 6 weeks worth of water storage for the hydro stations so we as a country are at a point where we need to seriously consider new generation schemes. Even the geothermal plants rely on rain water so popping more of them in is not going to help our situation.

Yup, but it was the judiciary not greenies that knocked it back.... Being as how it was a court decision and all...... Hardly unknown for a judge to be in lala land at decision time is it. Owning a lifestyle bock, that's a guess based on my knowledge of the area (family have been land owners out at the Manukau heads for over 100 years) does not automatically a greenie make.

rainman

14th March 2011, 21:17

Tidal power certainly makes sense but you know as well as I do that wind power is a tiny gesture. It provides a piffling amount of electricity and none of it reliably. Even solar is 15% efficient at best. The best that can be said about these two is that they are renewable and they represent genuine efforts to find alternatives to carbon based energy sources.

All true. I don't suggest for one minute that these are complete solutions to enable us to continue our energy-intensive lifestyle.

Personally I like tidal but believe nuclear fusion is the future.

Agree, probably. But the Very Distant future. A.k.a. too late.

Who knows what political agenda or motive was behind it, or whether the farmer who objected was a greenie, fact remains it was a perfect location and because of a ridiculous reason it was knocked back. as have most of the proposals that have thus far been put forward.

So, w don't know the real reason "but it musta been those damn hippies"? Your prejudices are showing.

HenryDorsetCase

14th March 2011, 21:42

PDNX4fRcHoY

Do you fear this man's invention
that they call atomic power
are we all in great confusion
do we know the time or hour

when a terrible explosion
may rain down upon our land
leaving horrible destruction
blotting out the works of man

are you, are you ready
for that great atomic power
will you rise and meet your savior in the air
will you shout or will you cry
when the fire rains from on high
are you ready for that great atomic power

there is one way to escape
and be prepared to meet the lord
when the mushroom of destruction fallsthere is a shielding sword

he will surely stand beside you
and you'll never taste of death
for your soul will fly to safety
and eternal peace and rest

are you, are you ready
for that great atomic power
will you rise and meet your savior in the air
will you shout or will you cry
when the fire rains from on high
are you ready for that great atomic power

avgas

14th March 2011, 21:43

I thought a shutdown caused the nuclear material to be removed from the fusion chamber? Is this the bit that failed?
Control rods were dropped all the way down, but this still requires cooling continuously as there is still reactions.
Its basically latent heat that is effectively perpetual to the half-life of the material (like leaving the element on all day, then turning it off only to have a tiny 30w short keep it warm indefinitely.)

This is the worst disaster in my lifetime, purely due the fact it is 3 in one.

After being in Japan 4 years ago, this complete guts me. They are the nicest people to meet.
I always wanted to visit Sendai. But it looks like I will never get the chance.
Anyone know if Sapporo is ok? As that was the other on my "to do" list.

jonbuoy

15th March 2011, 00:40

Lot of respect to the engineers working in the reactors now trying to keep things going.

avgas

15th March 2011, 06:57

Lot of respect to the engineers working in the reactors now trying to keep things going.
Yep - its almost a suicidal mission.
Not many people are that brave.

mashman

15th March 2011, 12:09

it must be hard going, especially when they don't stop exploding... another one apparantly (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/9011689/fresh-explosion-heard-at-stricken-japan-reactor/)

Crasherfromwayback

15th March 2011, 12:11

Just gets worse for the poor buggers

Brian d marge

15th March 2011, 12:38

Just gets worse for the poor buggers

I know , Customers still want their stuff , and the power is .ummm ropey.

Communications up north are still shot , but most people I know are alright

Same as CHCH really there will be someone.

On a lighter note got a lot done in the garden , peas beans potatoes garlic carrots pumpkin Goya ginger and red peppers

Now just need to put cooling in the workshop for summer .

Can get a lot done when the Pc doesnt work ...!
Stephen

The Stranger

15th March 2011, 12:56

No it hasn't. Hydrogen created by a process explained in the link I posted a little earlier has exploded.

Noooo, the sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Ok, was thinking (it's actully not that hard) so they are short of pumps. The press tell us so, but I haven't seen anyone (say the press) put that into a perspective. I mean why not just rip down to hire pool and grab some pumps and a genset? Well obviously the they thought of that one, perhaps they're not rocket scientists but I gather they're pretty smart none the less.
But, hell there must be some temporary arrangement surely?

A quick google search and and you get a perspective on the magnitude of the problem. So I have no way of knowing if these pumps (http://www.doosan.com/doosanheavybiz/en/services/power/power_plant/reactor_coolant_pumps.page)are anything like what are/were in use at the plant but fook me 121,600 Gallons per minute.
Now you start to see the magnitude of the problem.

A question for those in the know please.
I gather they are puming in sea water to cool the cores.
Does the water come into contact with the radioactive core? I assume it does in this case at least. It would appear that any chance of using a heat exchanger is out as they have said that the coolant is below the core.

Swoop

15th March 2011, 13:05

Did any greeines like Royal forest and bird, greenpeace, green party, marua society submit against it?
The question is also "did the greenies support the idea?".
One resident NIMBY can shut down a good proposal, very easily.

george formby

15th March 2011, 13:14

I gather they are puming in sea water to cool the cores.

Not sure of the exact plumbing in a nuclear reactor but I do know that the sea water is highly corrosive. If the reactor was not designed to circulate sea water then it is fooked. Throw it away & start again. Very worrying that this is the last resort & it is sacrificial.

SPman

15th March 2011, 13:14

Ronin

15th March 2011, 14:10

Noooo, the sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Ok, was thinking (it's actully not that hard) so they are short of pumps. The press tell us so, but I haven't seen anyone (say the press) put that into a perspective. I mean why not just rip down to hire pool and grab some pumps and a genset? Well obviously the they thought of that one, perhaps they're not rocket scientists but I gather they're pretty smart none the less.
But, hell there must be some temporary arrangement surely?

A quick google search and and you get a perspective on the magnitude of the problem. So I have no way of knowing if these pumps (http://www.doosan.com/doosanheavybiz/en/services/power/power_plant/reactor_coolant_pumps.page)are anything like what are/were in use at the plant but fook me 121,600 Gallons per minute.
Now you start to see the magnitude of the problem.

A question for those in the know please.
I gather they are puming in sea water to cool the cores.
Does the water come into contact with the radioactive core? I assume it does in this case at least. It would appear that any chance of using a heat exchanger is out as they have said that the coolant is below the core.

This will answer all and more:

http://mitnse.com/

Rehosted version of Jim's previous post.

The Stranger

15th March 2011, 14:15

Some background info on the Toshiba/Westinghouse reactors and Tokyo Electric power company....not all good...
http://www.gregpalast.com/no-bs-info-on-japan-nuclearobama-invites-tokyo-electric-to-build-us-nukes-with-taxpayer-funds/#more-4497

That's interesting, particularly the part about the press only being interested in numbers. It's so right. My son and 3 of his friends were in Tokyo when the big one struck. All the NZ embassy was interested in was registering numbers. I'm very grateful to the Ausie embassy, one of their staff got the Kiwi's out of there. It wasn't until a few days later that we realised that they were on the missing list and we called and removed them. The embassy was very grateful - for helping them keep the numbers up to date.

mashman

15th March 2011, 15:44

and that makes 4 (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/9013320/japan-warns-radioactive-levels-high-around-plant-after-blast/)... the link makes for exceptionally grim reading.

Ronin

15th March 2011, 15:48

and that makes 4 (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/9013320/japan-warns-radioactive-levels-high-around-plant-after-blast/)... the link makes for exceptionally grim reading.

In that case I would read another media outlet other than Yahoo.

george formby

15th March 2011, 15:51

In that case I would read another media outlet other than Yahoo.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/japan-earthquake/4768979/Japan-earthquake-and-tsunami-latest-updates-Tuesday

george formby

15th March 2011, 16:04

Fook, it sounds grim. NHK TV is reporting slight increases in radiation levels & radioactive particles all over the place, including Tokyo.

george formby

15th March 2011, 16:46

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/japan-earthquake/4767180/Fire-at-Japan-earthquake-tsunami-hit-nuclear-complex

Winston001

15th March 2011, 17:01

I gather they are puming in sea water to cool the cores.
Does the water come into contact with the radioactive core? I assume it does in this case at least. It would appear that any chance of using a heat exchanger is out as they have said that the coolant is below the core.

Yes. Seawater is directly cooling the core.

This is a BWR (Boiling Water Reactor) as opposed to a PWR (Pressurised Water Reactor). The difference - and its important - is that a BWR drives the generator directly with steam from core water. A PWR uses a closed loop cooling system and a heat exchanger to pass heat to the steam generation loop.

A PWR gives another level of safety because the generator is separated from the reactor cooling.

Below the reactor is the pool - a torus of water into which radioactive steam is vented in an emergency. If the pool loses pressure that tells us radioactive steam has been let out. Even so, it should be contained within the reactor building but as we've seen, there have now been 3 explosions releasing steam and particles into the environment.

Apparently reactor 4 is now on fire. Its incomprehensible. :(

awayatc

15th March 2011, 17:26

Apparently reactor 4 is now on fire. Its incomprehensible. :(

Incomprhensible?

it is manmade isn't it?

that means it WILL fail one day....

Only thing that may be incomprhensible is that that 1 day is 2day....?

we are people....we fuck things up....

Mike Troutman

15th March 2011, 17:50

elevated levels of radiation are due to them using seawater as a coolant. reactor coolant is generally VERY pure water. Unfortunatly there are so many contaminants in seawater a drastic increase in rdiation levels are inevitable. Still, it could be much much worse.

spacemonkey

15th March 2011, 17:56

Still, it could be much much worse.

At the rate the news keeps getting worse and worse, "Much much worse" is looking more likely by the freaking day man. :(

The poor japs must be running out of new stuff to go wrong over there by now surely??? :facepalm:

Crasherfromwayback

15th March 2011, 17:56

Still, it could be much much worse.

Something tells me it's going to be before it gets much much better...

davebullet

15th March 2011, 18:11

Ronin

15th March 2011, 19:16

Crasherfromwayback

15th March 2011, 20:37

but I still found it funny...234518

Brian d marge

15th March 2011, 21:27

Crasherfromwayback

15th March 2011, 21:37

The whiskey isn't working as good , I think I might have to start shitting bricks

Stephen

low levels of radiation ,,,in Tokyo

Bollox

its ok I need a few more Micro verts .... Six to seven million microsieverts will kill you.

Definately not a cool situation for anyone over there.

Brian d marge

15th March 2011, 21:43

Definitely not a cool situation for anyone over there.

once you lose your verts , its all over

Drinking , even ice skating can all make lose ya verts

and with only seven million of them , I must have done at least half

Stephen

marie_speeds

16th March 2011, 10:00

So, w don't know the real reason "but it musta been those damn hippies"? Your prejudices are showing.

I'm not prejuicing that sort of carry on is not allowed at my work...

mashman

16th March 2011, 10:12

The whiskey isn't working as good , I think I might have to start shitting bricks

Stephen

low levels of radiation ,,,in Tokyo

Bollox

its ok I need a few more Micro verts .... Six to seven million microsieverts will kill you.

If i was in your situation, and i'm very glad i'm not, i'd be getting off the bottle and on to a plane :)... keep that hat nice and shiny fulla :)

scissorhands

16th March 2011, 11:25

I'm not prejuicing that sort of carry on is not allowed at my work...

you can prejuice over here if you like, I dont mind

Looks like the survival kit needs a small radiation contamination testing device, that takes AAA from the solar/bicycle charger.

Mike Troutman

16th March 2011, 11:51

What DR systems were in place?
Why does it appear to be built so close to the water?

Sorry if these questions have been covered elsewhere, but it seems the level of fault tolerance on a nuclear plant should be able to withstand a tsunami (or not be near one to be affected) - given the consequences of not being able to handle a loss of coolant / power.

It's built close to the water because the water is required for power generation and auxilliary cooling. Not to mention for last ditch reactor cooling efforts you want as massive a water source as you can get.

To note is the fact that even though the media has been a bunch of nuclear fear mongers (probably because oil and coal companies pay thier bills), radiation levels are falling. Radioactive steam is radioactive, but the half life is extremely short. Short of the fuel rods burning in open air, things aren't going to be that horrible.

But, be happy and take note in knowing then it wont be half as bad as many of the nuclear incidents the US has had. Still wont be good....
Research past nuclear incidents and you'll be suprised at the number that were never mentioned by the media despite being rather exceptionally bad.
And the latest AP article I saw I'd recommend sticking to the comments made by the nuclear pysicist, not the reporter.

Mike Troutman

16th March 2011, 12:00

you can prejuice over here if you like, I dont mind

Looks like the survival kit needs a small radiation contamination testing device, that takes AAA from the solar/bicycle charger.

not really worthwhile actually. 3 types of radioactive particles to worry about here: Alpha, Beta and Gamma. Gamma is easiest to detect and travels the farthest. Beta requires a slightly different device to detect and doesnt travel as far as gamma. Then there's alpha's, don't bother trying.

Now as to contamination by the different types think of them like three kinds of cookies.

Gamma cookie: Eat this cookie. Nothing you can do to avoid it. you're going to get it anyhow. takes a lot of lead to stop these guys.

Alpha Cookie: Put it in your pocket. your clothing will stop them. don't eat anything that's been contaminated and wash your hands with soap and water. Which they'll mess you up badly if you do eat them, so don't.

Beta cookie: Toss this one over your shoulder, you really don't want to deal with it.

The good thing is the radiation that is present is from Gamma particles. Least dangerous but hardest to stop.

If you lived near the reactor within thier evacuation zone, I wouldn't eat anything that was left out.

The Stranger

16th March 2011, 21:08

not really worthwhile actually. 3 types of radioactive particles to worry about here: Alpha, Beta and Gamma. Gamma is easiest to detect and travels the farthest. Beta requires a slightly different device to detect and doesnt travel as far as gamma. Then there's alpha's, don't bother trying.

Now as to contamination by the different types think of them like three kinds of cookies.

Gamma cookie: Eat this cookie. Nothing you can do to avoid it. you're going to get it anyhow. takes a lot of lead to stop these guys.

Alpha Cookie: Put it in your pocket. your clothing will stop them. don't eat anything that's been contaminated and wash your hands with soap and water. Which they'll mess you up badly if you do eat them, so don't.

Beta cookie: Toss this one over your shoulder, you really don't want to deal with it.

The good thing is the radiation that is present is from Gamma particles. Least dangerous but hardest to stop.

If you lived near the reactor within thier evacuation zone, I wouldn't eat anything that was left out.

So what's the prognosis for the cookie factory?
The latest I heard was they are going to try and piss on it from a helicopter with monsoon buckets full of boric acid to try and cool them.
I thought these things were encased in concrete tombs. How will this help to cool them.
I know they are saying boric acid helps nutralise radiation, but to cool them, really when they can't even cool them from within?
Shouldn't a priority be to control, prevent, contain and extinguish fires that may carry radiation into the atmosphere?

Drunken Monkey

16th March 2011, 23:01

but I still found it funny...234518

Meh, it's topical...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/o7gFlSGXt_k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

R6_kid

17th March 2011, 00:35

Until they start telling us what sort of readings they are actually getting I'm not prepared to listen to any of what the media is reporting regarding the nuclear power stations and the "meltdowns" etc.

The problem being that the Japanese have a tendancy to be understated where as the Western Media is always over sensationalised. As said, unless people are inhaling/ingesting a lot of Alpha Particles then there isn't really much more you can do other than stay as far away from the plants as possible, which is already being done.

pete376403

18th March 2011, 09:10

from Wikileaks, a report in 2008:
"2. (SBU) Delegations from the G8 countries plus representatives of the European Union, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD), and the International Atomic Energy Agency met in Tokyo December 3 and 4 for the Third Nuclear Safety and Security Group (NSSG) meeting of 2008. The meeting was chaired by Japan and included 47 representatives from the various parties. "

and

"6. (SBU) On earthquakes and nuclear safety, the IAEA presenter noted the Agency has officials in Japan to learn from Japan's recent experience dealing with earthquakes and described several areas of IAEA focus. First, he explained that safety guides for seismic safety have only been revised three times in the last 35 years and that the IAEA is now reexamining them. Also, the presenter noted recent earthquakes in some cases have exceeded the design basis for some nuclear plants"

So they can't claim no-one was expecting this to happen

george formby

18th March 2011, 09:19

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2011/03/nuclear-crisis-radioactive-fue.html

Don't read to far or you will find out the spent fuel rods were stored on the roof of the reactors:(

Mental Trousers

18th March 2011, 09:26

The latest I heard was they are going to try and piss on it from a helicopter with monsoon buckets full of boric acid to try and cool them.

I can't help thinking that's for PR reasons as I can't see how pouring water on a sealed reactor is going to help anything. Unless they're trying to cool the stuff outside the containment vessel or they're trying to suppress airborne shit like dust. If that shits getting too hot then surely things are somewhat worse than we're being led to believe??

george formby

18th March 2011, 09:31

I can't help thinking that's for PR reasons as I can't see how pouring water on a sealed reactor is going to help anything. Unless they're trying to cool the stuff outside the containment vessel or they're trying to suppress airborne shit like dust. If that shits getting too hot then surely things are somewhat worse than we're being led to believe??

Read the link above. Different perspective on the situation.

avgas

18th March 2011, 10:22

not really worthwhile actually. 3 types of radioactive particles to worry about here: Alpha, Beta and Gamma. Gamma is easiest to detect and travels the farthest. Beta requires a slightly different device to detect and doesnt travel as far as gamma. Then there's alpha's, don't bother trying.

Now as to contamination by the different types think of them like three kinds of cookies.

Gamma cookie: Eat this cookie. Nothing you can do to avoid it. you're going to get it anyhow. takes a lot of lead to stop these guys.

Alpha Cookie: Put it in your pocket. your clothing will stop them. don't eat anything that's been contaminated and wash your hands with soap and water. Which they'll mess you up badly if you do eat them, so don't.

Beta cookie: Toss this one over your shoulder, you really don't want to deal with it.

The good thing is the radiation that is present is from Gamma particles. Least dangerous but hardest to stop.

If you lived near the reactor within thier evacuation zone, I wouldn't eat anything that was left out.
You might want to point out that the radiation given off by the 'Gamma' is actually a primary cause of cancer (due to radiation).
Gamma radiation is also one of the worst kinds of radiation.

But then again if all your worried about is particles you know your already fucked. Not straight away. But fucked none the less.

Mental Trousers

18th March 2011, 10:31

Read the link above. Different perspective on the situation.

Ta<blah blah>

Pixie

18th March 2011, 10:42

Funny thing is,the populations/occupations with a lower that normal risk of cancer are those of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and radiologists.
For an explanation of why this is look up Hormesis

Mike Troutman

18th March 2011, 11:43

So what's the prognosis for the cookie factory?
The latest I heard was they are going to try and piss on it from a helicopter with monsoon buckets full of boric acid to try and cool them.
I thought these things were encased in concrete tombs. How will this help to cool them.
I know they are saying boric acid helps nutralise radiation, but to cool them, really when they can't even cool them from within?
Shouldn't a priority be to control, prevent, contain and extinguish fires that may carry radiation into the atmosphere?

Boric acid is a neutron moderator (it's absorbs neutrons). By doing so it reduces the reactivity of the fuel. Fewer neutrons ziping about => fewer reactions with the nuclear fuel => less heat generated.
They've actually been injecting boric acid into the core for some time now, just now they're dumping it into the pools as well. The problem they're running into is that without operating pumps there's no water circulation, without the water circulation it's very hard to control temperature. The pools are supposed to be maintained at 25deg but they're at over 80deg last they could check in unit 4.

Granted, it's not a good situation but radiation levels at the site boundry have been decreasing despite some increase in radiation levels at the reactors.

The media isn't doing a very good job I've noticed of talking about what any of the numbers mean either. Leave it to say that radiation dose limits are there to prevent one from suffering ill effects not the point at which you will suffer effects. I highly recomend checking out WNN (Worls Nuclear News) for practical information on what is really going on at the sites. http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/

You'll find plenty of in depth information and links to information there that will help explain things better than the media is.

Cooling pond temperatures

As reported by the International Atomic Energy Agency:

Unit 4

14 March, 10.08am GMT: 84 ˚C

15 March, 10.00am GMT: 84 ˚C

16 March, 05.00am GMT: no data

Unit 5

14 March, 10.08am GMT: 59.7 ˚C

15 March, 10.00am GMT: 60.4 ˚C

16 March, 05.00am GMT: 62.7 ˚C

Unit 6

14 March, 10.08am GMT: 58.0 ˚C

15 March, 10.00am GMT: 58.5 ˚C

16 March, 05.00am GMT: 60.0 ˚C

Neither the IAEA nor the Japan Atomic Industry Forum have data for units 1, 2 and 3.

Mike Troutman

18th March 2011, 11:57

You might want to point out that the radiation given off by the 'Gamma' is actually a primary cause of cancer (due to radiation).
Gamma radiation is also one of the worst kinds of radiation.

But then again if all your worried about is particles you know your already fucked. Not straight away. But fucked none the less.

Alpha and Beta particles are actually the most damaging not Gamma. Gamma is consisdered a primary cause simply for the fact that it's the hardest to stop not for its actual affect on the body. Plus Gamma particles occur in the greatest numbers.

An Alpha particle is actually 2 protons and 2 neutrons identical to a helium nucleus.

A Gamma particle is a photon (everything in the electromagnetic spectrum)

An Beta particle electrons or positrons (these are the worst)

Beta radiation is by far the worst form of ionizing radiation. The reason for that is as the particle size increases the chances of collision with another particle increase.

It's the ionizing ability of the radiation that creates the danger. Alpha has the highest ionizing potential, Gamma the lowest.

Here are some quality factor values based on ICRP 103 recommendations:[15]

Photons, all energies : Q = 1
Electrons and muons, all energies : Q = 1
Protons and charged pions : Q = 2
Neutrons : Q is a continuous function of neutron energy
Alpha particles and other atomic nuclei : Q = 20

Mike Troutman

18th March 2011, 12:05

Mike Troutman

18th March 2011, 12:08

Casualties among power plant workers

•Two Tepco employees have minor injuries.
•Two contractors were injured when the quake struck and were taken to hospital, one suffering two broken legs.
•A Tepco worker was taken to hospital after collapsing and experiencing chest pains.
•A subcontract worker at an "important earthquake-proof building" was found unconscious and was taken to hospital.
•Two Tepco workers felt ill whilst working in the control rooms of Fukushima Daiichi units 1 and 2 and were taken to the medical centre at Fukushima Daini.
•Four workers were injured in the hydrogen explosion at Fukushima Daiichi 1. They were all taken to hospital.
•Eleven workers (four Tepco workers, three subcontract workers and four members of Self Defence Force) were hurt following a similar explosion at Fukushima Daiichi 3. They were transferred to the Fukushima Daini plant. One of the Tepco employees, complaining of pain in his side, was later transferred to hospital.
•The whereabouts of two Tepco workers, who had been in the turbine building of Fukushima Daiichi unit 4, is unknown.
•Only one casualty has been reported at the Fukushima Daini plant. A worker in the crane operating console of the exhaust stack was seriously injured when the earthquake struck. He subsequently died.

Contamination cases

•One Tepco worker working within the reactor building of Fukushima Daiichi unit 3 during "vent work" was taken to hospital after receiving radiation exposure exceeding 100 mSv, a level deemed acceptable in emergency situations by some national nuclear safety regulators.
•Nine Tepco employees and eight subcontractors suffered facial exposure to low levels of radiation. They did not require hospital treatment.
•Two policemen were decontaminated after beng exposed to radiation.
•An unspecified number of firemen who were exposed to radiation are under investigation.

avgas

18th March 2011, 12:32

Alpha and Beta particles are actually the most damaging not Gamma. Gamma is consisdered a primary cause simply for the fact that it's the hardest to stop not for its actual affect on the body. Plus Gamma particles occur in the greatest numbers.
An Alpha particle is actually 2 protons and 2 neutrons identical to a helium nucleus.
A Gamma particle is a photon (everything in the electromagnetic spectrum)
An Beta particle electrons or positrons (these are the worst)
Beta radiation is by far the worst form of ionizing radiation. The reason for that is as the particle size increases the chances of collision with another particle increase.
It's the ionizing ability of the radiation that creates the danger. Alpha has the highest ionizing potential, Gamma the lowest.
Here are some quality factor values based on ICRP 103 recommendations:[15]
Photons, all energies : Q = 1
Electrons and muons, all energies : Q = 1
Protons and charged pions : Q = 2
Neutrons : Q is a continuous function of neutron energy
Alpha particles and other atomic nuclei : Q = 20

Hmmmm thats strange the tail end of your message was missing (quality factors etc), so have re-quoted whole thing so others can see.

I can't help but mention that you are quoting as if a substance was next subject.

Gamma is bad as its effectively restrained by the speed and distance of light. Where as particles not so much. Seeing as there is no 'reported' particle fallout yet, I am more concerned for the people in Japan from 'bone sunburn' if you will than breathing difficulties.

As it has already been shown that the wind is out to sea at this point.

avgas

18th March 2011, 12:33

Mike Troutman

19th March 2011, 07:11

Hmmmm thats strange the tail end of your message was missing (quality factors etc), so have re-quoted whole thing so others can see.

I can't help but mention that you are quoting as if a substance was next subject.

Gamma is bad as its effectively restrained by the speed and distance of light. Where as particles not so much. Seeing as there is no 'reported' particle fallout yet, I am more concerned for the people in Japan from 'bone sunburn' if you will than breathing difficulties.

As it has already been shown that the wind is out to sea at this point.

Technically Gamma is a particle yet at the same time it isn't. Funny how photon's work.

Additionally here's a bit from the UK side of things that gives a good detail on the WORST case scenario.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS-UK_advisor_reassures_on_contamination_fears-1803114.html

The Stranger

19th March 2011, 09:56

Technically Gamma is a particle yet at the same time it isn't. Funny how photon's work.

Additionally here's a bit from the UK side of things that gives a good detail on the WORST case scenario.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS-UK_advisor_reassures_on_contamination_fears-1803114.html

"chief scientific officer John Beddington said that the only people likely to receive doses of radiation that could damage their health are the on-site workers at the Fukushima Daiichi plant. He said that the general population outside of the 20 kilometre evacuation zone should not be concerned about contamination."

Now see this is where I can't see something stacking up. Why kill your workers if there is no threat beyond the plant? They talk of the Fukushima 50 being heros yadda yadda. Lets face it, they're probably going to die, but if it's not to save someone then why? If there is no risk to others why not just let it take it's course?

The other question I have is if as noted in the doco referenced here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/135842-The-Battle-of-Chernobyl) there was risk of a massive explosion of the motlen core should it have gone through the floor of the reactor and into the water, why is this not a risk in this case? Not saying it is, for all I know it's a completly different material, but I would be interested to know.

onearmedbandit

19th March 2011, 12:17

From my understanding the reactors at Fukushima have a very good containment 'bowl' under the reactor, which the Russian one didn't. I may however be wrong, but I recall reading something about it.

marty

19th March 2011, 12:20

I've read today that the Chinook pilots were returning from their mission too unwell to return and were simply being replaced. I'll try and find the link again.

marty

19th March 2011, 12:24

from a Pilot's forum:

NEWSPAPER ARTICLE TODAY.

The aircrew are in the same boat so as to speak...

THEY are being hailed as the modern-day Samurai - the 180 brave men who stayed behind to fight the crisis at Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear power plant, knowing they had very likely volunteered for a suicide mission.

Communication with workers in the plant is nearly impossible.

But the message that came out from one of them was that he was "not afraid to die", that that was his job.

The parents, wives and children of these brave men may never see them again, but they are proud of their sacrifice.

A 27-year-old woman, whose "Twitter" name is @NamicoAoto, tweeted that her father had volunteered for Fukushima duty.

"I heard that he volunteered even though he will be retiring in just half-a-year and my eyes are filling up with tears," she tweeted.

"At home, he doesn't seem like someone who could handle big jobs.

"But today, I was proud of him. I pray for his safe return."

Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan told the volunteers: "You are the only ones who can resolve a crisis. Retreat is unthinkable."

In shifts of 50, with no electricity, they are working in total darkness using torches or helmets with lamps on them.

Wearing head-to-toe protective gear and breathing through oxygen tanks as radiation reaches potentially lethal levels and temperatures soar, they crawl through dark mazes of pipes to make an adjustment on a valve or to read a gauge.

Nuclear experts say the skeleton crew is most likely not made up of managers but technicians, including firefighters, who know the plant inside out.

They are more likely to be skilled older men than fit young ones because they have already had children.

And, even if they are exposed to massive amounts of radiation, their cancers are unlikely to develop in their lifetime.

The volunteers are being rotated in and out of the danger zone, often for only 10 or 15 minutes at a time, to limit their radiation exposure.

Japan's Health Minister Yoko Komiyama has raised the legal limit on the amount of radiation to which each worker can be exposed to 250 millisieverts from 100 millisieverts.

The average annual limit for nuclear power plant workers is 20 millisieverts and most do not absorb more than 1 millisievert in a year.

University of Tokyo Hospital Department of Radiology Associate Professor Keiichi Nakagawa, said: "I don't know any other way to say it, but this is like suicide fighters in a war."

Winston001

19th March 2011, 15:56

Why kill your workers if there is no threat beyond the plant? ....If there is no risk to others why not just let it take it's course?

The other question I have is if as noted in the doco referenced here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/135842-The-Battle-of-Chernobyl) there was risk of a massive explosion of the motlen core should it have gone through the floor of the reactor and into the water, why is this not a risk in this case? Not saying it is, for all I know it's a completly different material, but I would be interested to know.

There is plenty of threat beyond the plant if they cannot cool the reactors and keep any radioactive material covered. An explosion, or fire, even lots of steam will throw radioactive particles into the air.

The prevailing winds are westerly = blow out to sea, but that depends on the weather.

Melt-down: Three Mile Island had a melt-down but nobody was killed and nothing melted through the bottom. The reactors are held in a thick steel and concrete containment structure to prevent melting into the earth.

Chernobyl did not have a containment vessel plus the reactor was live and well when it went critical. Lots of active particles. Ironically the Russians were trying a safety test at the time. By contrast the Fukushima reactors were shut down a week ago. Its the leftover heat and reactions which cause the current problems.

The Stranger

19th March 2011, 16:23

Japan's Health Minister Yoko Komiyama has raised the legal limit on the amount of radiation to which each worker can be exposed to 250 millisieverts from 100 millisieverts.

Now this guy is onto something. I've said for a while that we can fix our road toll by simply revising the target from 300 to 400. Pleased to see my ideas catching on.

gunnyrob

20th March 2011, 09:44

It's not that bad according to the Japanese Cartoon network......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sakN2hSVxA&feature=player_embedded

Swoop

20th March 2011, 15:20

Melt-down: Three Mile Island had a melt-down but nobody was killed and nothing melted through the bottom.
It has been described as a "partial melt-down".:blink:

Brian d marge

20th March 2011, 20:37

It's not that bad according to the Japanese Cartoon network......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sakN2hSVxA&feature=player_embedded

Very funny that , liked it

Stephen

HenryDorsetCase

21st March 2011, 09:53

oneofsix

21st March 2011, 10:01

Has anyone linked to this xkcd graphic? I think it gives a pretty clear explanation of the actual levels of radiation (as they've been recorded and reported).

I dont think there is any suggestion that the helicopter crews are on a suicide mission: this is not Chernobyl: these reactors are shut down, the radiation products are secondary sources, and most of the containment is working.

I think this is a very good example of just how safe nuclear power is. This is pretty much a worst case scenario, and it still hasnt gone all Chernobyl.

http://xkcd.com/radiation/

yeah real safe - not, well not safe enough. When you have other choices why go there. Basically a power outage at the power station is causing all sorts of problems and near misses. It's not Chernobyl, still a long way from it, but still too close and diverting a lot of resources. Not many other things where you shut them down and still have heaps of resource tied up in managing the cool down that can go explosive on you.

HenryDorsetCase

21st March 2011, 10:16

yeah real safe - not, well not safe enough. When you have other choices why go there. Basically a power outage at the power station is causing all sorts of problems and near misses. It's not Chernobyl, still a long way from it, but still too close and diverting a lot of resources. Not many other things where you shut them down and still have heaps of resource tied up in managing the cool down that can go explosive on you.

sure, but the risk assessment must include the fact that it (nuclear energy generally) has provided 30% of the country's power for forty years, and what's happened is pretty much the perfect storm. The design criteria for the reactor containment was modelled on 8.2, this quake was FIVE times stronger, and didnt include the tsunami. I think its done amazingly well.

Sure, there were some issues (the generator trucks they bought in early in the piece couldnt be connected to the plant, for example) and the whole plant had one or two water lines. But lessons will be learned.

And again, its not Chernobyl. There was no catastrophic loss of containment, with the reactor core open to the sky. There's your worst case scenario.

I would love to go to Russia and do the Chernobyl tour.

The Stranger

21st March 2011, 10:31

sure, but the risk assessment must include the fact that it (nuclear energy generally) has provided 30% of the country's power for forty years, and what's happened is pretty much the perfect storm. The design criteria for the reactor containment was modelled on 8.2, this quake was FIVE times stronger, and didnt include the tsunami. I think its done amazingly well.

Sure, there were some issues (the generator trucks they bought in early in the piece couldnt be connected to the plant, for example) and the whole plant had one or two water lines. But lessons will be learned.

And again, its not Chernobyl. There was no catastrophic loss of containment, with the reactor core open to the sky. There's your worst case scenario.

I would love to go to Russia and do the Chernobyl tour.

Not only that, but there is potential for harm to humans with other forms of power generation too. Would a dam hold up to an 8.9 earthquake? Does pollution from coal or fossil fuel kill?

HenryDorsetCase

21st March 2011, 13:20

I am totally loving this MIT site. Pity some muck raking fear mongering journos didnt actually read it before bandying about terms like melt down and Chernobyl.

the interesting one to me is the Three Mile Island (they actually had a core meltdown there, kids) and the "corium"s effect on the containment structure.

Science is hard. but valuable.

http://mitnse.com/

oneofsix

21st March 2011, 13:28

jonbuoy

21st March 2011, 19:06

Nuclear power stations might be relatively safe, I wouldn´t want to work in one and I wouldn´t live with one over the fence from me.

Winston001

5th April 2011, 23:35

The Stranger

6th April 2011, 00:03

I'm going to have to eat humble pie on this one. I can scarcely believe that a technologically advanced nation like Japan has not been able to bring the 4 reactor buildings back to safe control.

Ah what the heck, check these pics out for up to date info:

http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/breaking-latest-satellite-imagery-fukushima/55711

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp/daiichi-photos.htm

How can you dump water onto the outside of a 6" thick SS case surrounded by 1.2m of concrete and expect it to cool anything inside unless the core were already exposed? Were the core already exposed then that called into question the validity of all the rest of the assurances. Seriously, you should have known the game was up then.
If they had been dumping concrete (with boric acid added) any idea how much concrete would be leaching into the ground water or the ocean?

The thing that reeeaalllly fucks me off is why is the Japanese govt leaving this mess to TEPCO to sort out? Are TEPCOs priorities in our best interests? Somehow I doubt it - I hold that to be self evident. In my view the Japanese govt have seriously (carelessly and recklessly) abdicated their responsibility to their people and possibly to the citizens of the world.

Brian d marge

6th April 2011, 01:19

How can you dump water onto the outside of a 6" thick SS case surrounded by 1.2m of concrete and expect it to cool anything inside unless the core were already exposed? Were the core already exposed then that called into question the validity of all the rest of the assurances. Seriously, you should have known the game was up then.
If they had been dumping concrete (with boric acid added) any idea how much concrete would be leaching into the ground water or the ocean?

The thing that reeeaalllly fucks me off is why is the Japanese govt leaving this mess to TEPCO to sort out? Are TEPCOs priorities in our best interests? Somehow I doubt it - I hold that to be self evident. In my view the Japanese govt have seriously (carelessly and recklessly) abdicated their responsibility to their people and possibly to the citizens of the world.

This is a lasse faire economy and this is the result.

When is come to common sense in the face of a crisis , this lot think different.

oh and the consequence gene is switched off ( thats what makes em such good races , )

its getting serious here now , I just returned from the supermarket and there is crap all in the way of beer on the shelves

bastards

Stephen